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olle
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Trump peace plan of the century

Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:48 pm

With the release of the "peace plan of the centory" coming next week details are leaking;


https://www.timesofisrael.com/trump-pla ... ttlements/

It seems like Israel gets more or less as the jewish people has requested.

Please keep this discussion deasent!

Shall Palestinians accept?

Shall PA give up if they consider a palestinian state impossible after this? Does Israel want an active occupation and not passive as today?

Is the jewish demands correct?

Is USA a balanced broker or do we see a Munchen 1936 "peace in our time" again with settler as the new sudet germans?

If Palestinians give up will there be one state with equal rights and if not how will Israel long term be effected of this?

Is it correct of Israel to connect the Palestinian Israel to Holocoust and connect Israel handling of the conflict as anti semitic?

Is it wrong of the Palestinian people to become a tool of Iran or do they not have any other option?

Shall Palestinians or are they allowed to use violent actions against occupation or is it just an exuse for Iran attacking Israel?
Last edited by SQ22 on Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Typo fixed
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Trump peace plan of the centory

Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:12 pm

If what is leaked is true, this 'plan' is DOA. Greenblatt wasn't a fair broker, but he obviously left Kushner's office because even he knew this was a fiasco in the making. Palestinians won't, and shouldn't accept a total settlement sovereignty 'agreement'.
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Dutchy
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:52 pm

uhmmmm give one party all it desires and they expect both parties to accept that? It isn't even a plan. How can a foreign power decide what two different nations should accept? America will never be seen as an independent broker if this is true. So their role in the Middle East diminishes even further after the Iran fiasco.
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casinterest
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:23 pm

It's not a plan , it is a Trump photo opportunity. However it must be said, it only acknowledges must of what is in place today, and mainly forces Palestine to recognize it. It is DOA, but Trump and Bibi will try to take a victory lap anyway for politics sake,
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
olle
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:33 pm

What does Israel win by promiting its "wet dream" to throw the palestinians under the bus?

Do they consider a jewish palenstinian state better then 2 states jewish palestinians? Or do they plan to get palestinians to jordan and or libanon?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:36 pm

olle wrote:
What does Israel win by promiting its "wet dream" to throw the palestinians under the bus?

Do they consider a jewish palenstinian state better then 2 states jewish palestinians? Or do they plan to get palestinians to jordan and or libanon?


Even the Israelis are the first to admit they won’t be able to move millions of people out.
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olle
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:40 pm

So the plan is official...

I must say that I am not a Trump fan but as I can understand it it gives palestinians a close to fair opportunity for a country. It is of course pretty much very much in favour in of Israel, all major settlements close to Jerusalem, but Palestinians have the right to have a capital in the suburbs. If Palestinians get a successful economy their part of jerusalem could even grow and become big.

US government is correct that soon there will not be any chance for palestinians to have anything at all.

Perhaps the best I heard from Trump ever ;-)

Any comments?
 
Ken777
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:30 pm

Trump is simply too dumb to come up with anything b asides what Israel has written for him.

I see this is another failure because it is too lopsided

Pity
 
NIKV69
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:34 pm

We forgetting Palestine won't agree to anything unless Israel leaves entirely?
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SanDiegoLover
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:43 pm

Pretty hard to have a peace plan unveiling when the White House only invited BiBi and not Abbas and the Palestinians.

This isn’t a peace plan, but rather giving BiBi a photo op to boost his re-election chances on March 2nd.
 
Cadet985
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:51 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
We forgetting Palestine won't agree to anything unless Israel leaves entirely?


You’re absolutely right. The deal is crap. The Israeli people won’t stand for it.

Marc
 
910A
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:51 pm

olle wrote:
So the plan is official...

I must say that I am not a Trump fan but as I can understand it it gives palestinians a close to fair opportunity for a country. It is of course pretty much very much in favour in of Israel, all major settlements close to Jerusalem, but Palestinians have the right to have a capital in the suburbs. If Palestinians get a successful economy their part of jerusalem could even grow and become big.

US government is correct that soon there will not be any chance for palestinians to have anything at all.

Perhaps the best I heard from Trump ever ;-)

Any comments?


Let me get this straight, after reading the NYT article, how do you come up with a peace plan without consulting both sides and still taking more territorial lands from one side to give to the other. I'm sure the Palestinians will appreciated the fake government and state that they have been offered. Finally why should the US borrow $50m more just to give the the Palestinians?
 
bennett123
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:20 pm

Did the Israeli Government write this?.

What are the implications for Non Jews of living in a Jewish State?.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:52 pm

Congrats, Trump, you just made yourself complete and utterly unbelievable in Middle Eastern matters. Trump has had his little publicity stunt as had Netanyahu,

A nice diversion for Netanyahu, though, today he has officially been accused of corruption charges. And of course, Trump is being impeached, and the Palestinian President Abbas wasn't there of course. Ah well, another four years lost in this conflict.
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:12 pm

An Evangelical Perspective on the proposed Peace Plan:

https://www.jpost.com//Arab-Israeli-Con ... God-615570

“The Bible talks about the land that the Jewish people are living on, the land which the Jew haters call ‘settlements’ and ‘illegal,’” Dr. Mike Evans, founder of Friends of Zion Museum and a member of the Trump Faith Initiative said in an interview with The Jerusalem Post, a day before the expected publication of the plan to resolve the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians.

“Israel just got kissed by God,” Evans continued. “I am not referring to Donald Trump as God, but I am saying he has Divine inspiration.” “Our base will be weeping” with joy at the plan’s formal reveal about the prominence of the Bible, he said. For many Evangelicals, God raised up Trump much like he raised up British Prime Minister Winston Churchill just more than 70 years prior. In the book God & Churchill, authors Jonathan Sandys (Churchill’s great-grandson) and former White House staffer Wallace Henley point out that Churchill led from a core belief in Divine destiny.
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BN747
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:23 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
An Evangelical Perspective on the proposed Peace Plan:

https://www.jpost.com//Arab-Israeli-Con ... God-615570

“The Bible talks about the land that the Jewish people are living on, the land which the Jew haters call ‘settlements’ and ‘illegal,’” Dr. Mike Evans, founder of Friends of Zion Museum and a member of the Trump Faith Initiative said in an interview with The Jerusalem Post, a day before the expected publication of the plan to resolve the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians.

“Israel just got kissed by God,” Evans continued. “I am not referring to Donald Trump as God, but I am saying he has Divine inspiration.” “Our base will be weeping” with joy at the plan’s formal reveal about the prominence of the Bible, he said. For many Evangelicals, God raised up Trump much like he raised up British Prime Minister Winston Churchill just more than 70 years prior. In the book God & Churchill, authors Jonathan Sandys (Churchill’s great-grandson) and former White House staffer Wallace Henley point out that Churchill led from a core belief in Divine destiny.


As of the last 100 years or so, I've heard of no stone tablets with instructions nor commands falling from above indicating anything from anyone...

They're makin' sheet up....

BN747
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petertenthije
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:51 pm

BN747 wrote:
As of the last 100 years or so, I've heard of no stone tablets with instructions nor commands falling from above indicating anything from anyone...

They're makin' sheet up....

BN747
Maybe the stone tablets fell on Trump’s thick head, shattering the stones and scrambling Trump’s mind. It would explain a few things. :)
Attamottamotta!
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:23 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
An Evangelical Perspective on the proposed Peace Plan:

https://www.jpost.com//Arab-Israeli-Con ... God-615570

“The Bible talks about the land that the Jewish people are living on, the land which the Jew haters call ‘settlements’ and ‘illegal,’” Dr. Mike Evans, founder of Friends of Zion Museum and a member of the Trump Faith Initiative said in an interview with The Jerusalem Post, a day before the expected publication of the plan to resolve the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians.

“Israel just got kissed by God,” Evans continued. “I am not referring to Donald Trump as God, but I am saying he has Divine inspiration.” “Our base will be weeping” with joy at the plan’s formal reveal about the prominence of the Bible, he said. For many Evangelicals, God raised up Trump much like he raised up British Prime Minister Winston Churchill just more than 70 years prior. In the book God & Churchill, authors Jonathan Sandys (Churchill’s great-grandson) and former White House staffer Wallace Henley point out that Churchill led from a core belief in Divine destiny.

Evangelicals are raging antisemites. Why would anyone (outside of this administration) care what they think?
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Aaron747
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:37 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
An Evangelical Perspective on the proposed Peace Plan:

https://www.jpost.com//Arab-Israeli-Con ... God-615570

“The Bible talks about the land that the Jewish people are living on, the land which the Jew haters call ‘settlements’ and ‘illegal,’” Dr. Mike Evans, founder of Friends of Zion Museum and a member of the Trump Faith Initiative said in an interview with The Jerusalem Post, a day before the expected publication of the plan to resolve the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians.

“Israel just got kissed by God,” Evans continued. “I am not referring to Donald Trump as God, but I am saying he has Divine inspiration.” “Our base will be weeping” with joy at the plan’s formal reveal about the prominence of the Bible, he said. For many Evangelicals, God raised up Trump much like he raised up British Prime Minister Winston Churchill just more than 70 years prior. In the book God & Churchill, authors Jonathan Sandys (Churchill’s great-grandson) and former White House staffer Wallace Henley point out that Churchill led from a core belief in Divine destiny.

Evangelicals are raging antisemites. Why would anyone (outside of this administration) care what they think?


It’s amazing how much bloviating covers the naked motivation they just want to sell millions of tours to Bethlehem and Nazareth.
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:14 am

Aaron747 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Evangelicals are raging antisemites. Why would anyone (outside of this administration) care what they think?


It's amazing how much bloviating covers the naked motivation they just want to sell millions of tours to Bethlehem and Nazareth.



Of even greater concern are the ones who actually believe this somehow makes them allies to Jews (yes, the ones in Israel too. . .).

The point of these Evangelicals' exploitation of Jews in the Mideast - to help clear out all the other brown people they hate - is so patently clear. I do not understand how someone can be that obvious and still claim not to be aware of it.
They must simply believe they are the first people to try pandering out...



No doubt, the usual suspects will try (again... somehow) to claim that supporting moronic ideas like this gives their otherwise transparently anti-semitic behavior a pass...
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N14AZ
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:50 am

Trump is using the teleprompter, of course. But I never saw him watching so rigidly onto the screen as in his yesterday’s speech. For „the deal of the century“ you would have expected a free speech.

Anyhow, as he correctly defined it, it’s just a „vision“.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:35 am

Did anybody else realize that there was not a single Palestinian in the room? Israel is basically saying Palestine can become a state if they give up their sovereignty (which makes no sense)
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

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Aaron747
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:44 am

[list=][/list]
sonicruiser wrote:
Did anybody else realize that there was not a single Palestinian in the room? Israel is basically saying Palestine can become a state if they give up their sovereignty (which makes no sense)


Of course not - and that’s why everyone knows this crapola is DOA.
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sonicruiser
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:23 am

Great article in the NYT on the subject.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/28/worl ... tw-nytimes

This plan legitimatizes illegal Israeli colonization in the West Bank and gives full control of Jerusalem to Israel and doesn't require them to remove their illegal settlements. This plan was immediately rejected by Palestine as their two most important demands were not met. Palestinians expressed outrage over the plan saying that their land cannot be illegally settled by Israel and then bought later, that land never belonged to them in the first place and it was never for sale. Palestinian land illegally settled by Israel is still Palestinian land and must be returned in any kind of meaningful peace deal. Letting Israel keep its existing settlements legitimizes illegal Israeli expansion in the West Bank. It may be painful for Israel to remove their settlements but those settlements were never legal in the first place, so if they want a peace deal, Israel must remove those settlements. After causing so much harm to Palestine over the decades, it is clear that a fair deal for the Palestinians would be painful for Israel since they have everything to lose. Jerusalem under full Israeli control is only acceptable to Israel. There is a clear reason no Palestinian was present at yesterday's press conference, and that is because any Palestinian would be outraged at handing over Jerusalem to Israel, it has been an integral part of Palestine and cannot be illegally annexed. It was always the plan of Israel to weaken Palestine and cripple it to such an extent that Palestinians would accept any peace deal such as this one, but Palestine should not accept this deal because it will only weaken them even more. This deal requires Palestine to demilitarize, lose their sovereignty, accept Israeli settlements as legal, and recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It legitimizes illegal Israeli activities as legal in exchange for $50B dollars to maintain the current situation. This deal doesn't change anything, it actually maintains the current status quo by bribing Palestine as the de-facto situation favors Israel and Israel wants to buy the land they illegally occupied to avoid losing anything. If an Israeli-Palestinian peace plan ignores the issue of Jerusalem and illegal Israeli settlements completely, then what is the point of having a peace plan at all?

1. This deal doesn't require Israel to split control of Jerusalem
2. This deal doesn't require Israel to remove illegal Israeli settlements from the West Bank
3. This deal gives Palestine $50B for land that was never for sale

Make no mistake, Trump wants to make a deal for the optics, no matter how worthless it actually is. Anyone can see right through this deal and how lopsided it is in favoring Israel. Trump could've at least pretended to be fair to Palestine by inviting some Palestinians, he didn't even do that.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:09 am

The proposed Palestinian state would be fully encircled by Israel. Palestine wants a contiguous state. Also, while returning to Israel after the press conference, Netanyahu told reporters that he asked his cabinet to vote Sunday on a unilateral annexation of the strategically important Jordan River Valley and all Jewish settlements in the West Bank, showing how much he actually cares about peace.

Trump's idea of a future Palestinian state looks strikingly similar to a familiar map from before: a map of Apartheid South Africa. This deal is basically Trump moving to strengthen his friend Netanyahu and weaken Palestinian negotiation positions, telling Palestine "Take it or leave it." This deal has nothing to do with peace.

I don't know in what universe the new map doubles Palestinian territory, so either that is disingenuous or Trump is just making it up.

Current on left, Proposed on right

Image

Image

Image
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

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Aesma
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:30 pm

This "plan" is of course a non starter for palestinian (or anyone with a fair view of things), but Israel doesn't want peace anyway. They want the current situation to continue for 50 more years, then all the map will be Israel.
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N14AZ
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:22 pm

@Sonicruiser: first of all thank you for posting these maps.

This could be really funny ....if it wouldn’t be serious business: so there is someone in Washington sitting in an office and drawing this fancy map with bridges, tunnels and so on but without discussing this map with the Palestinian side. What a waste of time and resources…

Also, just check on google maps the location for the proposed residential area at the border to Egypt. Great location! (… I am not saying you cannot live over there. Had a project in Mitzpe Ramon, which is very close by… but still)

sonicruiser wrote:
I don't know in what universe the new map doubles Palestinian territory, so either that is disingenuous or Trump is just making it up.

That’s the first thing that came to my mind. I thought Trump was successful in real estate business. I can understand that he didn’t know that bombing cultural sites is a war crime but I thought he has an idea about land areas. Someone should have told him: “look, double is if you have one golf club and you add another golf club next to it” ;-)

Just kidding, if I will become US president you will be allowed to make the same jokes about me.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:11 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
Great article in the NYT on the subject.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/28/worl ... tw-nytimes

This plan legitimatizes illegal Israeli colonization in the West Bank and gives full control of Jerusalem to Israel and doesn't require them to remove their illegal settlements. This plan was immediately rejected by Palestine as their two most important demands were not met. Palestinians expressed outrage over the plan saying that their land cannot be illegally settled by Israel and then bought later, that land never belonged to them in the first place and it was never for sale. Palestinian land illegally settled by Israel is still Palestinian land and must be returned in any kind of meaningful peace deal. Letting Israel keep its existing settlements legitimizes illegal Israeli expansion in the West Bank. It may be painful for Israel to remove their settlements but those settlements were never legal in the first place, so if they want a peace deal, Israel must remove those settlements. After causing so much harm to Palestine over the decades, it is clear that a fair deal for the Palestinians would be painful for Israel since they have everything to lose. Jerusalem under full Israeli control is only acceptable to Israel. There is a clear reason no Palestinian was present at yesterday's press conference, and that is because any Palestinian would be outraged at handing over Jerusalem to Israel, it has been an integral part of Palestine and cannot be illegally annexed. It was always the plan of Israel to weaken Palestine and cripple it to such an extent that Palestinians would accept any peace deal such as this one, but Palestine should not accept this deal because it will only weaken them even more. This deal requires Palestine to demilitarize, lose their sovereignty, accept Israeli settlements as legal, and recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It legitimizes illegal Israeli activities as legal in exchange for $50B dollars to maintain the current situation. This deal doesn't change anything, it actually maintains the current status quo by bribing Palestine as the de-facto situation favors Israel and Israel wants to buy the land they illegally occupied to avoid losing anything. If an Israeli-Palestinian peace plan ignores the issue of Jerusalem and illegal Israeli settlements completely, then what is the point of having a peace plan at all?

1. This deal doesn't require Israel to split control of Jerusalem
2. This deal doesn't require Israel to remove illegal Israeli settlements from the West Bank
3. This deal gives Palestine $50B for land that was never for sale

Make no mistake, Trump wants to make a deal for the optics, no matter how worthless it actually is. Anyone can see right through this deal and how lopsided it is in favoring Israel. Trump could've at least pretended to be fair to Palestine by inviting some Palestinians, he didn't even do that.


SonicCruiser, thank you SO MUCH for those visual materials. That taught me more about this issue than previous 20 years of reading articles about it. The comparison to South Africa is also quite special. I believe Palestinians could do better by communicating what you just did. End.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:31 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
Great article in the NYT on the subject.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/28/worl ... tw-nytimes

This plan legitimatizes illegal Israeli colonization in the West Bank and gives full control of Jerusalem to Israel and doesn't require them to remove their illegal settlements. This plan was immediately rejected by Palestine as their two most important demands were not met. Palestinians expressed outrage over the plan saying that their land cannot be illegally settled by Israel and then bought later, that land never belonged to them in the first place and it was never for sale. Palestinian land illegally settled by Israel is still Palestinian land and must be returned in any kind of meaningful peace deal. Letting Israel keep its existing settlements legitimizes illegal Israeli expansion in the West Bank. It may be painful for Israel to remove their settlements but those settlements were never legal in the first place, so if they want a peace deal, Israel must remove those settlements. After causing so much harm to Palestine over the decades, it is clear that a fair deal for the Palestinians would be painful for Israel since they have everything to lose. Jerusalem under full Israeli control is only acceptable to Israel. There is a clear reason no Palestinian was present at yesterday's press conference, and that is because any Palestinian would be outraged at handing over Jerusalem to Israel, it has been an integral part of Palestine and cannot be illegally annexed. It was always the plan of Israel to weaken Palestine and cripple it to such an extent that Palestinians would accept any peace deal such as this one, but Palestine should not accept this deal because it will only weaken them even more. This deal requires Palestine to demilitarize, lose their sovereignty, accept Israeli settlements as legal, and recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It legitimizes illegal Israeli activities as legal in exchange for $50B dollars to maintain the current situation. This deal doesn't change anything, it actually maintains the current status quo by bribing Palestine as the de-facto situation favors Israel and Israel wants to buy the land they illegally occupied to avoid losing anything. If an Israeli-Palestinian peace plan ignores the issue of Jerusalem and illegal Israeli settlements completely, then what is the point of having a peace plan at all?

1. This deal doesn't require Israel to split control of Jerusalem
2. This deal doesn't require Israel to remove illegal Israeli settlements from the West Bank
3. This deal gives Palestine $50B for land that was never for sale

Make no mistake, Trump wants to make a deal for the optics, no matter how worthless it actually is. Anyone can see right through this deal and how lopsided it is in favoring Israel. Trump could've at least pretended to be fair to Palestine by inviting some Palestinians, he didn't even do that.


SonicCruiser, thank you SO MUCH for those visual materials. That taught me more about this issue than previous 20 years of reading articles about it. The comparison to South Africa is also quite special. I believe Palestinians could do better by communicating what you just did. End.


For that, they’d need a competent government not comprised entirely of crusty old men.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
LMP737
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:55 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
An Evangelical Perspective on the proposed Peace Plan:

https://www.jpost.com//Arab-Israeli-Con ... God-615570

“The Bible talks about the land that the Jewish people are living on, the land which the Jew haters call ‘settlements’ and ‘illegal,’” Dr. Mike Evans, founder of Friends of Zion Museum and a member of the Trump Faith Initiative said in an interview with The Jerusalem Post, a day before the expected publication of the plan to resolve the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians.

“Israel just got kissed by God,” Evans continued. “I am not referring to Donald Trump as God, but I am saying he has Divine inspiration.” “Our base will be weeping” with joy at the plan’s formal reveal about the prominence of the Bible, he said. For many Evangelicals, God raised up Trump much like he raised up British Prime Minister Winston Churchill just more than 70 years prior. In the book God & Churchill, authors Jonathan Sandys (Churchill’s great-grandson) and former White House staffer Wallace Henley point out that Churchill led from a core belief in Divine destiny.


A whole lot of delusion going on in that statement.
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olle
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:20 pm

When it now has been going a few days it seems more like the "negotiations" was outsourced to Israel extreme right...


No palestinian real country worth the name whenverifying the details.

Palestinians are better of doing nothing and joining Israel after a period of appartheid style of rule. PA should step downand give up and the faster the better. The current PA becomes similar to a vichy regime executing the occupying power demands.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:55 pm

Actually there were compromises made on the Israeli right (not that they are of any help or good nature). The extreme right doesn't want tunnels, port access, or access to the sacred Islamic sites in the Old City.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
WIederling
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:53 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Actually there were compromises made on the Israeli right (not that they are of any help or good nature). The extreme right doesn't want tunnels, port access, or access to the sacred Islamic sites in the Old City.


i still remember what Leon Uris wrote in Exodus about he presence of orthodox Jews in Palestine and especially Jerusalem.

What a change in character.

Back when SA held up its apartheid system Israel and the establishment in South Africa had quite a bit in common and good connections.
Intense cooperation in the nuclear and missile domain afair.
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L410Turbolet
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:30 pm

Aesma wrote:
This "plan" is of course a non starter for palestinian (or anyone with a fair view of things), but Israel doesn't want peace anyway. They want the current situation to continue for 50 more years, then all the map will be Israel.

The last thing Middle East needs is [another] EU-funded, islamist-ruled failed state. If the trend continues, the Arabs will outnumber the Israelis. Simple demography and something countries like Sweden or France should pay a really good attention to.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/18/co ... palestine/
 
bennett123
Posts: 9473
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:39 pm

So what do you do to prevent the Arab population growing more than the Jewish population?.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3618
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:43 pm

bennett123 wrote:
So what do you do to prevent the Arab population growing more than the Jewish population?.


Decent jobs and shit to spend their money on.

Once you have a middle-class lifestyle to fund you stop breeding like rabbits.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 382
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:44 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Aesma wrote:
This "plan" is of course a non starter for palestinian (or anyone with a fair view of things), but Israel doesn't want peace anyway. They want the current situation to continue for 50 more years, then all the map will be Israel.

The last thing Middle East needs is [another] EU-funded, islamist-ruled failed state. If the trend continues, the Arabs will outnumber the Israelis. Simple demography and something countries like Sweden or France should pay a really good attention to.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/18/co ... palestine/


So what? It's their homeland. Things change. Sometimes, the world we thought we knew is nothing more than "the past."
 
olle
Topic Author
Posts: 1886
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:41 pm

JJJ wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
So what do you do to prevent the Arab population growing more than the Jewish population?.


Decent jobs and shit to spend their money on.

Once you have a middle-class lifestyle to fund you stop breeding like rabbits.



If a jewish palestinian population is around 50-50 will it be a jewish state?
 
JJJ
Posts: 3618
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:13 pm

olle wrote:
JJJ wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
So what do you do to prevent the Arab population growing more than the Jewish population?.


Decent jobs and shit to spend their money on.

Once you have a middle-class lifestyle to fund you stop breeding like rabbits.



If a jewish palestinian population is around 50-50 will it be a jewish state?


If I were a Jew I'd be more concerned about things like justice equality and rule of law rather than religious/ethnic makeup.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:56 pm

bennett123 wrote:
So what do you do to prevent the Arab population growing more than the Jewish population?.


Free birth control and good jobs that keep people busy and out of depression.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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bgm
Posts: 2430
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:44 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
An Evangelical Perspective on the proposed Peace Plan:

https://www.jpost.com//Arab-Israeli-Con ... God-615570

“The Bible talks about the land that the Jewish people are living on, the land which the Jew haters call ‘settlements’ and ‘illegal,’” Dr. Mike Evans, founder of Friends of Zion Museum and a member of the Trump Faith Initiative said in an interview with The Jerusalem Post, a day before the expected publication of the plan to resolve the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians.

“Israel just got kissed by God,” Evans continued. “I am not referring to Donald Trump as God, but I am saying he has Divine inspiration.” “Our base will be weeping” with joy at the plan’s formal reveal about the prominence of the Bible, he said. For many Evangelicals, God raised up Trump much like he raised up British Prime Minister Winston Churchill just more than 70 years prior. In the book God & Churchill, authors Jonathan Sandys (Churchill’s great-grandson) and former White House staffer Wallace Henley point out that Churchill led from a core belief in Divine destiny.


Gramps, that's a whole bunch of deranged looneytunery going on there. Special LOL @ "Trump Faith Initiative" :rotfl:

Sounds like Dr. Mike Evans is smoking crack.
If you hate wearing a mask, you’re really going to hate using a ventilator.
 
SanDiegoLover
Posts: 431
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:24 am

Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:47 pm

So much for a peace plan. The Palestinians have cut all ties with both the USA and Israel. https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/02 ... urity.html
 
BN747
Posts: 7679
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:50 pm

SanDiegoLover wrote:
So much for a peace plan. The Palestinians have cut all ties with both the USA and Israel. https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/02 ... urity.html



Seriously! No one here really believed something of substance was ever a part of this, right?

It was Classic trump sales pitch from the moment it was announced.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
olle
Topic Author
Posts: 1886
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:47 pm

BN747 wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:
So much for a peace plan. The Palestinians have cut all ties with both the USA and Israel. https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/02 ... urity.html



Seriously! No one here really believed something of substance was ever a part of this, right?

It was Classic trump sales pitch from the moment it was announced.

BN747



Palestinians shoul play the long game and become members of a great Israel

https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/pa ... l-us-33413

The map shown shows the reality.

Trump is correct with the analysis this is the chance for palestinians to get anything at all for themself.

If I was palestinian I would consider "why dont join a funtioning state like Israel". If they do that they will some kind of "untermenchen" for a 2-3 generation then I suppose that all citizen will have equal rights.

Much better offer then the Trump deal of the centory.
 
olle
Topic Author
Posts: 1886
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:21 pm

50 ex european leaders says the deal with lead to a one state and perhaps appartheid state

https://www.timesofisrael.com/50-former ... east-plan/
 
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Aesma
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:53 pm

olle wrote:
If I was palestinian I would consider "why dont join a funtioning state like Israel". If they do that they will some kind of "untermenchen" for a 2-3 generation then I suppose that all citizen will have equal rights.

Much better offer then the Trump deal of the centory.


But there is no such offer to take. Israel functioning is debatable, but more importantly it's going full speed towards far right craziness, obsessed with "Jewishness", so having 5-6 millions more Muslims as citizens is not possible.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
olle
Topic Author
Posts: 1886
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:04 pm

Aesma wrote:
olle wrote:
If I was palestinian I would consider "why dont join a funtioning state like Israel". If they do that they will some kind of "untermenchen" for a 2-3 generation then I suppose that all citizen will have equal rights.

Much better offer then the Trump deal of the centory.


But there is no such offer to take. Israel functioning is debatable, but more importantly it's going full speed towards far right craziness, obsessed with "Jewishness", so having 5-6 millions more Muslims as citizens is not possible.



As I wrote, Israel will request Palestinians to be "untermenchen" with apartheid even if it will be called something else.

But after few years Israel and the extremist that run the settlements will recognized that they did their biggest mistake by getting what they wished for. Palestinians living abroad as refugees is normally very well educated and will soon be a new middle class in Israel, and will demand equal rights.

Then we will have a president in Israel called Mohammed.
 
Sokes
Posts: 1190
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Fri Mar 06, 2020 2:16 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
“...In the book God & Churchill, authors Jonathan Sandys (Churchill’s great-grandson) and former White House staffer Wallace Henley point out that Churchill led from a core belief in Divine destiny.


I doubt that. I assume no evidence is given for that claim?
That apart: Die Vorsehung was on Churchill's side.

On a more serious note: If one is born a Palestinian today it's possibly best to be born as one with Israeli passport. Even though I was told by a Palestinian that half of the 20% or so Israelis with Palestinian background vote for nuts candidates. So what policy would an independent Palestine follow? How well did democracy for Gaza work out?

Once an ideology is stuck in people's head, no amount of evidence can change their attitude. How many more times is the West trying to introduce democracy in societies not ready for it? The years after the French revolution were no children's birthday. But the point is that by the time the French Revolution took place, an ideological change had already taken place. Jesuits were reporting exciting news of meritocracy from China. And there were developments in England and America that fed into the formation of new opinions in France.
Napoleon did succeed to bring a change of mentality among European neighbors. He occupied the countries and introduced the Napoleonic code. I believe that was good. But the West can't follow Napoleon as long as they stick to the "self-determination" ideology.

I assume Netanjahu, just like Erdogan, enjoys much support because of his economic policies. If one introduces democracy for Palestinians I expect most politicians would be motivated to fill their pockets. However I can imagine an ideological motivated party would be willing to do good economic policies. Whom would you vote as a peace loving Palestinian in such a situation?

Israel's government is the only one that can lead Palestinians out of poverty. I also think it's their duty. There has to be some positive discrimination. Palestinians willing to sterilize after the first child should get high subsidy to buy a flat. Palestinian children must get good education paid by Israel. If Palestinians see that the Israel government treats them better than the Jewish citizens, the hate will come down very fast.
But why would an Israeli struggling to find decent housing vote for high housing subsidies for Palestinians?

The West should stop financing the breeding efforts of Palestinian refugees and should stop financial/ military help to Israel.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
bennett123
Posts: 9473
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Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:11 am

Sterilisation is really the answer?.
 
FGITD
Posts: 804
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Trump peace plan of the century

Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:17 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Sterilisation is really the answer?.


That whole post is an absolutely horrific scenario. Basically stops just short of saying that the best way to solve the issues Palestinians have would be to get rid of Palestinians. Only instead of bombing them to oblivion, the answer is a slow generational ethnic cleansing which is advertised as being to their benefit

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