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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:32 pm

Arion640 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
This discussion is like groundhog day. Why not simply wait till the end of the year and see what happens.


Because the knowitalls on here, the experts, want everyone to know what will happen, despite all round ignorance.


I agree. It’s turned into one massive brit bashing fest, with no rational thought or acknowledgement of any anti EU points.


I will put in three point where I think the EU must improve, after you post three positive points, fair enough?
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:34 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Because the knowitalls on here, the experts, want everyone to know what will happen, despite all round ignorance.


I agree. It’s turned into one massive brit bashing fest, with no rational thought or acknowledgement of any anti EU points.


I will put in three point where I think the EU must improve, after you post three positive points, fair enough?


Yes sure, believe it or not the EU will have some
Benefits. Just the negatives out way the positives for me.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:35 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

I agree. It’s turned into one massive brit bashing fest, with no rational thought or acknowledgement of any anti EU points.


I will put in three point where I think the EU must improve, after you post three positive points, fair enough?


Yes sure, believe it or not the EU will have some
Benefits. Just the negatives out way the positives for me.


What are your positive 3 points?
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergenceHy

Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:01 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:


Why would we need EU permission?


You wouldn't and didn't.
This started with Scotland : why Scotland need UK permission for a referendum, then ?


Because Scotland is part of the UK and is subject to UK Law.


You answered this to Klaus point which was basically to say it was unfair for the Scots not to be able to vote in a ref again now one of the basic precondition of their last ref cease to exist :
noviorbis77 wrote:
So why not give all EU members a yearly referendum on whether they should stay in the EU or not?
Germany could have an annual vote etc?
Surely you’d support that to be democratic?


We (weel, actually UK did it) demonstrated every member state actually can take the sovereign decision to leave the EU. Whereas you are making Klaus point :
Klaus wrote:
Tough! You've had your say, now shut up and fall in line!
That's how UK democracy works according to you, right?
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:32 am

Just saying as a person living in Norway on the outside of the EU looking in, I'd much rather we were in the EU and could receive the full benefits of EU membership instead of this daft half-pie situation we have today.

After a few years of being outside the EU the UK population will wonder why they shot themselves in the foot, people will start campaigning to get back in, but they won't have the awesome EU deal the UK once had.
 
marcelh
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:26 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Just saying as a person living in Norway on the outside of the EU looking in, I'd much rather we were in the EU and could receive the full benefits of EU membership instead of this daft half-pie situation we have today.

After a few years of being outside the EU the UK population will wonder why they shot themselves in the foot, people will start campaigning to get back in, but they won't have the awesome EU deal the UK once had.


I don't think the EU wants the UK back. The UK will be stripped bare by the neo-liberal fultures and I don't think the EU wants a carcass.
 
DNDTUF
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:50 pm

I really do hope we get our independence in Scotland and are able to rejoin the EU. I cannot wait to see the back of this anti-democratic, backwards looking, insular UK. The sooner the Brextremists realise that the UK is a small, insignificant country with very little clout left, the better. Leo Varadkar was right in his assessment of EU/UK trade negotiations:
https://www.businessinsider.fr/us/varad ... lks-2020-1
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:13 pm

par13del wrote:
Ertro wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
So why not give all EU members a yearly referendum on whether they should stay in the EU or not?
Germany could have an annual vote etc?
Surely you’d support that to be democratic?


I seem to have forgotten. What was the date when UK asked EU for a permission to hold the referendum?
I have no recollection of such thing every happening. Please help to refresh my memory.

As far as I know every country is perfectly allowed to have referendums on whether they want to stay in the EU on every full minute and twice that on sundays and I fullheartedly support that right.

What would be the point, correct me if my memory is failing, but I thought there was something after the Ireland multiple votes that future treaties would be done by the elected houses versus referendums and countries where such constitutional requirements existed would have to be changed.


In France at least a referendum is still needed to accept a new EU member.

You can expect the result to be no, regardless of the country being considered (even the UK).
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:43 pm

Aesma wrote:
par13del wrote:
Ertro wrote:

I seem to have forgotten. What was the date when UK asked EU for a permission to hold the referendum?
I have no recollection of such thing every happening. Please help to refresh my memory.

As far as I know every country is perfectly allowed to have referendums on whether they want to stay in the EU on every full minute and twice that on sundays and I fullheartedly support that right.

What would be the point, correct me if my memory is failing, but I thought there was something after the Ireland multiple votes that future treaties would be done by the elected houses versus referendums and countries where such constitutional requirements existed would have to be changed.


In France at least a referendum is still needed to accept a new EU member.

You can expect the result to be no, regardless of the country being considered (even the UK).


Do you think they would say no to Norway if they applied?
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:46 pm

Probably. The mood is for now that the EU needs to clean its house before any extension.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:44 pm

https://twitter.com/brexitparty_uk/stat ... 27136?s=21

Interesting speech from Mr Farage.

That miserable battleaxe at the end is not impressed :)
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:54 pm

Because brexit doesn't resemble anything like the unicorns promised.....and never will.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:03 pm

marcelh wrote:
I don't think the EU wants the UK back. The UK will be stripped bare by the neo-liberal fultures and I don't think the EU wants a carcass.

The EU is not just a commercial club, it is a continent-wide project with a primarily political motivation to have a political structure for peaceful, democratic cooperation of sovereign democratic states.

Britain qualifies geographically and culturally, so the UK (or what will be left of it) will be welcome again, provided it gets its own house in order, makes the request and meets all the requirements.
 
77Phoebe
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:15 pm

Just a quick question. Why do the Continental Europeans on this endlessly tedious thread seem to care so much? At the end of the day the people most affected by this will be the British, it's not going to affect the rest of the EU past importers and exporters. Why care so much?
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:28 pm

Klaus wrote:
marcelh wrote:
I don't think the EU wants the UK back. The UK will be stripped bare by the neo-liberal fultures and I don't think the EU wants a carcass.

The EU is not just a commercial club, it is a continent-wide project with a primarily political motivation to have a political structure for peaceful, democratic cooperation of sovereign democratic states.

Britain qualifies geographically and culturally, so the UK (or what will be left of it) will be welcome again, provided it gets its own house in order, makes the request and meets all the requirements.


We would have to join and Schengen would we not if we rejoined?

Given the UK public has been massively against joining the Euro since its creation, I cannot foresee any circumstance in which this would change.

But who knows.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:52 pm

77Phoebe wrote:
Just a quick question. Why do the Continental Europeans on this endlessly tedious thread seem to care so much? At the end of the day the people most affected by this will be the British, it's not going to affect the rest of the EU past importers and exporters. Why care so much?

Same reason why we didn't just let rich, problem-free countries join but also ones in difficult circumstances: Because the European Union is an actual community where it matters how even small countries in the margins fare (see Ireland, for instance).

The Brexit campaign which was conducted by the UK billionaire-operated media for the last 40 years has always worked with lies, distortions and distractions to the point that today a large part of the UK population has no clue what the EU even is but let themselves geting flogged to the polls to vote for the destruction of the UK's membership anyway.

That horrid flood of completely fictitious disinformation had a very real effect for the country, and disinformation is like toxic waste: It must be cleaned up in order to stop it from further seeping into the ground.

So this is a bit like a cleanup crew in hazmat suits and face masks shoveling toxic waste, trying to contain an environmental disaster.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:57 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
We would have to join and Schengen would we not if we rejoined?

Given the UK public has been massively against joining the Euro since its creation, I cannot foresee any circumstance in which this would change.

But who knows.

The rules are the rules, and you've just voted to throw away all of the UK's opt-outs and special privileges.

Which in a way strengthens the EU further by removing those special exceptions, further leveling the field to a fairer state for all 27 members.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:11 pm

Actually any Brexit will have an affect on the EU. The better the trade agreement it is the better for both sides. And as well, the EU is more committed to peace between the ROI and NI. If UK policy threatens the return of The Troubles the EU becomes implacable.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:19 pm

Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
We would have to join and Schengen would we not if we rejoined?

Given the UK public has been massively against joining the Euro since its creation, I cannot foresee any circumstance in which this would change.

But who knows.

The rules are the rules, and you've just voted to throw away all of the UK's opt-outs and special privileges.

Which in a way strengthens the EU further by removing those special exceptions, further leveling the field to a fairer state for all 27 members.


That would mean any rejoin being ever the more unlikely.

You have common laws, currency. What is the next plan. A common language? A central capital city? Removal of members government with one leader for the whole EU?

Be interesting to see what happens with you all over the next 10-20 years?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:34 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
par13del wrote:
What would be the point, correct me if my memory is failing, but I thought there was something after the Ireland multiple votes that future treaties would be done by the elected houses versus referendums and countries where such constitutional requirements existed would have to be changed.


In France at least a referendum is still needed to accept a new EU member.

You can expect the result to be no, regardless of the country being considered (even the UK).


Do you think they would say no to Norway if they applied?


I mean the result of any referendum on any subject will be no.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:20 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
That would mean any rejoin being ever the more unlikely.

Let's see how the post-Brexit unicorn deliveries go.

You have common laws,

Only some, and those have been agreed between governments of sovereign countries and ratified by the duly elected European Parliament (and by national parliaments, too, depending on circumstances), not been "foisted on them by a separate enttity" as the Brexit mythology incorrectly claims, which you still appear to believe.

currency.

Correct, adopted by most member countries.

What is the next plan. A common language?

Typical propaganda nonsense, which couldn't be further from the truth: The EU actually promotes cultural diversity to a much greater degree than many national states do (and in particular the Westminster one!), and there isn't the slightest chance of cultural or lingual homogenization by EU fiat. The autonomous trend is rather having English (of all languages!) as a common second language, without any pressure by the EU.

A central capital city?

We've got plenty of capitals for different purposes already. London is just now throwing away its own role as the financial center and has already lost its function as center for medical drug oversight.

Removal of members government with one leader for the whole EU?

This weird Brexit fantasy is in complete contradiction to what the EU even is and how it works, and proposing such nonsense shows that you have no clue on either of those things.

Be interesting to see what happens with you all over the next 10-20 years?

Have fun looking in from the outside, now newly powerless to influence any of it!
 
marcelh
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:02 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
marcelh wrote:
I don't think the EU wants the UK back. The UK will be stripped bare by the neo-liberal fultures and I don't think the EU wants a carcass.

The EU is not just a commercial club, it is a continent-wide project with a primarily political motivation to have a political structure for peaceful, democratic cooperation of sovereign democratic states.

Britain qualifies geographically and culturally, so the UK (or what will be left of it) will be welcome again, provided it gets its own house in order, makes the request and meets all the requirements.


We would have to join and Schengen would we not if we rejoined?

Given the UK public has been massively against joining the Euro since its creation, I cannot foresee any circumstance in which this would change.

But who knows.

I don’t think it will happen. By that time, the UK is broke and has been taken over by the Chinese.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:11 pm

77Phoebe wrote:
Just a quick question. Why do the Continental Europeans on this endlessly tedious thread seem to care so much?


Populists shaping public opinion in this scale is a worrying development, no matter where it happens, but especially this close.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:37 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Just saying as a person living in Norway on the outside of the EU looking in, I'd much rather we were in the EU and could receive the full benefits of EU membership instead of this daft half-pie situation we have today.

If my reading is accurate, the only opt out Norway has is that you do not share your oil revenue with the EU (simplistic version) and for that privilege you get to follow every rule and regulation that the EU implements, the EU has to approve your trade deals and you get no say in any of those rules.
In my line of thinking if one has to follow every rule or regulation that the EU puts in place how can one say they are not in the EU? By following and implementing the EU is shaping your society just as it does for members, the only difference is that they contribute to the debate and Norway does not. I have a great deal of respect for those politicians who did then and continue to do so now in convincing the population that even though you have to live by the EU edicts you are not in the EU.

In reading the coverage of the vote in the EU parliament, some comment about being sad that the UK is leaving Europe, when the sun rises on 01-Feb-2020 the cliffs of Dover will still be visible from the continent. What it says to me is that as a people, we have allowed the political constructs to separate us even more than the natural geographic boundaries of the world we inhabit.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

I don't see the issue with oil and Norway, is the UK sharing its oil revenue ?

Fish, that's another story. But now that the EU has demonstrated it can manage fish stocks, I don't see it as a major issue.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:23 pm

par13del wrote:
In reading the coverage of the vote in the EU parliament, some comment about being sad that the UK is leaving Europe, when the sun rises on 01-Feb-2020 the cliffs of Dover will still be visible from the continent. What it says to me is that as a people, we have allowed the political constructs to separate us even more than the natural geographic boundaries of the world we inhabit.

No "political construct" has separated anyone there (see the other 27 countries!) but solely the crazy propaganda lies on the UK side which were actually believed by many britons.

Don't try to push that off on the EU – that's your very own isolated, delusional joyride down the chute!
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:26 am

Aesma wrote:
I don't see the issue with oil and Norway, is the UK sharing its oil revenue ?

Goes back to joining the EEA, like I said simplistic version
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Norway
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:28 am

Klaus wrote:
par13del wrote:
In reading the coverage of the vote in the EU parliament, some comment about being sad that the UK is leaving Europe, when the sun rises on 01-Feb-2020 the cliffs of Dover will still be visible from the continent. What it says to me is that as a people, we have allowed the political constructs to separate us even more than the natural geographic boundaries of the world we inhabit.

No "political construct" has separated anyone there (see the other 27 countries!) but solely the crazy propaganda lies on the UK side which were actually believed by many britons.

Well if the UK is still within eyesight of Europe, why would MP's lament the UK leaving Europe, they could have said the EU, I guess I just took them literally.
My bad.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:56 am

par13del wrote:
Well if the UK is still within eyesight of Europe

The UK is still a country in Europe, it has just lost its mind and from there its place in the European Union.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:43 am

Klaus wrote:
par13del wrote:
Well if the UK is still within eyesight of Europe

The UK is still a country in Europe, it has just lost its mind and from there its place in the European Union.

Which we all know and can disagree about, but that does not change the fact that educated persons going on the public record says they are leaving Europe.
But, it is what it is....I probably just took them too literal.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:48 am

77Phoebe wrote:
Just a quick question. Why do the Continental Europeans on this endlessly tedious thread seem to care so much? At the end of the day the people most affected by this will be the British, it's not going to affect the rest of the EU past importers and exporters. Why care so much?

What would you do if one of your country’s state or province would like to leave? Based on lies, influenced by Russia intelligence and promoted by demagogues.

For ages European countries have been attacking each others. The European Union is a guarantee for peace in Europe. There are many other good reasons.

Sad that it wasn’t possible to sort out the things that the UK considers as „too much EU“ and to find a compromise.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:09 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
https://twitter.com/brexitparty_uk/status/1222570396068827136?s=21

Interesting speech from Mr Farage.

The comments below the video make me sick. Today it’s just a nasty anti-EU comment on Twitter. Think several generations further on and it’s not hard to see where this might lead to.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:25 am

77Phoebe wrote:
Just a quick question. Why do the Continental Europeans on this endlessly tedious thread seem to care so much? At the end of the day the people most affected by this will be the British, it's not going to affect the rest of the EU past importers and exporters. Why care so much?


The EU is more than trade alone. It's about not having to worry about roaming charges when on holiday in the UK, it's about EHIC, it's about EU261 and all sorts of guarantees/rights we have as EU citizen which enable to buy and sell our stuff or travel to a country without having to think what the regulation of that country is. Therefore, it does hurt other besides those importing and exporting. Moreover it is amazing how the UK handled its departure, though thanks to the UK the number of people supporting to leave the EU has decreased and fierce anti-EU politicians have changed their voice.

Example, if you want to buy something on Amazon.com you'll notice that the same product has a different price on Amazon.co.uk, Amazon.de and Amazon.it (and all the other Amazon sites). Thus when I buy something I always look and the various sites (or use a website which lists all those products on the various sites) and buy on the cheapets (including shipping costs). Now that the UK is not EU anymore, Amazon.co.uk will be getting the same status as their US site should the UK get the same status as the US. Therefore, the cheap Amazon.co.uk will probably become more expensive and thus I've to pay more for what I buy on Amazon.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:32 am

par13del wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Just saying as a person living in Norway on the outside of the EU looking in, I'd much rather we were in the EU and could receive the full benefits of EU membership instead of this daft half-pie situation we have today.

If my reading is accurate, the only opt out Norway has is that you do not share your oil revenue with the EU (simplistic version) and for that privilege you get to follow every rule and regulation that the EU implements, the EU has to approve your trade deals and you get no say in any of those rules.
In my line of thinking if one has to follow every rule or regulation that the EU puts in place how can one say they are not in the EU? By following and implementing the EU is shaping your society just as it does for members, the only difference is that they contribute to the debate and Norway does not. I have a great deal of respect for those politicians who did then and continue to do so now in convincing the population that even though you have to live by the EU edicts you are not in the EU.

In reading the coverage of the vote in the EU parliament, some comment about being sad that the UK is leaving Europe, when the sun rises on 01-Feb-2020 the cliffs of Dover will still be visible from the continent. What it says to me is that as a people, we have allowed the political constructs to separate us even more than the natural geographic boundaries of the world we inhabit.


The EU doesn't get it's hand on the oil revenue of Germany, The Netherlands, UK and Denmark. The anti EU lobby sold the lie to the Norwegian public that the EU would take Norway's oil, this untruth sold Norway's EU aspirations down the toilet. The good bits we miss out on are the customs union, we pay import duties on everything we import from the EU into Norway, also the choice of an price of food in Norway is astronomically high, there govt has thrown up protectionist barriers which mean we subsidize farmers and pay on average three times what everyone else down south pays for basic food.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:34 am

LJ wrote:
77Phoebe wrote:
Just a quick question. Why do the Continental Europeans on this endlessly tedious thread seem to care so much? At the end of the day the people most affected by this will be the British, it's not going to affect the rest of the EU past importers and exporters. Why care so much?


Example, if you want to buy something on Amazon.com you'll notice that the same product has a different price on Amazon.co.uk, Amazon.de and Amazon.it (and all the other Amazon sites). Thus when I buy something I always look and the various sites (or use a website which lists all those products on the various sites) and buy on the cheapets (including shipping costs). Now that the UK is not EU anymore, Amazon.co.uk will be getting the same status as their US site should the UK get the same status as the US. Therefore, the cheap Amazon.co.uk will probably become more expensive and thus I've to pay more for what I buy on Amazon.


Books are the only items a private person can import into Norway without attracting import duties.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:49 am

Farage made some good points in his last speech: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... bye-speech

And this is the perfect example why the whole discussion between Brexiteers and EU supporters is a wasted time and will never find common ground.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:08 am

77Phoebe wrote:
Just a quick question. Why do the Continental Europeans on this endlessly tedious thread seem to care so much? At the end of the day the people most affected by this will be the British, it's not going to affect the rest of the EU past importers and exporters. Why care so much?


Like others said, the EU is more than just trade. It goes back to WWII. The foundation of the European project always has been to prevent an armed conflict between its members by closely cooperation. This is most evident in economic cooperation, but it goes much deeper than that. Worker's rights, for instance, a minimum is enforced within the EU. Fair and free trade, anti-corruption, antitrust etc.
Freedom of movement is one of the fundamental pillars of the EU. So as a European citizen, I can live anywhere I like within the EU. No hassle, I can just do it. So personal freedom is extended and now is a bit restricted by the UK leaving. Privacy laws which have been introduced, and are compulsive for even US tech companies. Fair taxes, tax evasion etc. can be introduced because companies can't ignore the 510million consumers within the EU. Rich countries helping first the south and now eastern European countries to develop to raise the overall level of wealth within the EU, solidarity.

Nowadays it goes even further, individual countries within the EU aren't that important in the world, that makes the EU even more relevant today, than ever before. The EU is founded on common ethics and beliefs. Those we take for granted now, but we shouldn't. The rise of the populist movement is evident all over the world. Those populists don't embrace those human rights all that much. Criticism on free media, free and impartial justice system, the democratic value's etc. All those rights are guaranteed by adopting EU directives and treaties.

So those are just a small portion of the reasons why we care so much. We hate for our cousins across the North Sea to miss out on all of that. It, indeed, feels like a close relative which is breaking with the family. It is because we care about the British, we are so involved (and it affects us all within the EU).
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1219
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:12 am

The difference between the UK and EU nations is that most British people do not identify themselves as European.

Culturally, we’ve never fitted completely in. We have more in common with our American cousins. America is our strongest ally.

It must come as no surprise to anyone really that the UK would be the first country in the EU to jump ship.
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 1173
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:27 am

More baseless brexiteering pontification from the one who KEEPS his EU CITIZENSHIP after Friday.

Meanwhile, the majority of the UK population lose theirs thanks to a minority of playground dwellers. The main difference between EU citizens and UK brexiteers is the former manage to act & think like grown ups. This was wonderfully demonstrated in the EU Parliament yesterday. Brexiteers, continually and utterly embarrassing the nation they supposedly hold so dear.
 
Arion640
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Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:33 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
The difference between the UK and EU nations is that most British people do not identify themselves as European.

Culturally, we’ve never fitted completely in. We have more in common with our American cousins. America is our strongest ally.

It must come as no surprise to anyone really that the UK would be the first country in the EU to jump ship.


I agree, i love Europe, but our culture and connections are much more aligned with the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. We’ve been the outsider for years with the opt out’s we’ve maintained. I think having a previous extensive empire, sharing the same head of state with multiple nations and not being in mainland Europe has mostly been the reason for this.

We are quite connected with Ireland however, as it is an ex UK territory.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 16264
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:39 am

N14AZ wrote:
77Phoebe wrote:
Just a quick question. Why do the Continental Europeans on this endlessly tedious thread seem to care so much? At the end of the day the people most affected by this will be the British, it's not going to affect the rest of the EU past importers and exporters. Why care so much?

What would you do if one of your country’s state or province would like to leave? Based on lies, influenced by Russia intelligence and promoted by demagogues.

For ages European countries have been attacking each others. The European Union is a guarantee for peace in Europe. There are many other good reasons.

Sad that it wasn’t possible to sort out the things that the UK considers as „too much EU“ and to find a compromise.


Indeed as to the last line and in effect, there will still be compromises made like done in a divorce agreement to deal with finances, access and care of children, property. Trade will have to continue between the EU and UK to protect jobs in both. The EU will have to get a lot tighter as to immigration, in particular from former USSR countries and the ME that was a trigger for 'Brexit', tone down some of their bureaucratic demands and deal with the 'have and have nots' countries part of the EU.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:35 pm

Arion640 wrote:
I agree, i love Europe, but our culture and connections are much more aligned with the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. We’ve been the outsider for years with the opt out’s we’ve maintained. I think having a previous extensive empire, sharing the same head of state with multiple nations and not being in mainland Europe has mostly been the reason for this.

We are quite connected with Ireland however, as it is an ex UK territory.

What you're saying there is little more than being too lazy to learn even just one additional language, cutting yourself off from much of the world around you.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:40 pm

Klaus wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
I agree, i love Europe, but our culture and connections are much more aligned with the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. We’ve been the outsider for years with the opt out’s we’ve maintained. I think having a previous extensive empire, sharing the same head of state with multiple nations and not being in mainland Europe has mostly been the reason for this.

We are quite connected with Ireland however, as it is an ex UK territory.

What you're saying there is little more than being too lazy to learn even just one additional language, cutting yourself off from much of the world around you.


Not sure how you came to that conclusion. We teach French, German and even Welsh in our schools.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:56 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Culturally, we’ve never fitted completely in. We have more in common with our American cousins. America is our strongest ally.


I would rather say that the US see the UK as an useful idiot that helps them to have an access to the EU (and work against) without bothering to learn an other language...
 
94717
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:59 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
par13del wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Just saying as a person living in Norway on the outside of the EU looking in, I'd much rather we were in the EU and could receive the full benefits of EU membership instead of this daft half-pie situation we have today.

If my reading is accurate, the only opt out Norway has is that you do not share your oil revenue with the EU (simplistic version) and for that privilege you get to follow every rule and regulation that the EU implements, the EU has to approve your trade deals and you get no say in any of those rules.
In my line of thinking if one has to follow every rule or regulation that the EU puts in place how can one say they are not in the EU? By following and implementing the EU is shaping your society just as it does for members, the only difference is that they contribute to the debate and Norway does not. I have a great deal of respect for those politicians who did then and continue to do so now in convincing the population that even though you have to live by the EU edicts you are not in the EU.

In reading the coverage of the vote in the EU parliament, some comment about being sad that the UK is leaving Europe, when the sun rises on 01-Feb-2020 the cliffs of Dover will still be visible from the continent. What it says to me is that as a people, we have allowed the political constructs to separate us even more than the natural geographic boundaries of the world we inhabit.


The EU doesn't get it's hand on the oil revenue of Germany, The Netherlands, UK and Denmark. The anti EU lobby sold the lie to the Norwegian public that the EU would take Norway's oil, this untruth sold Norway's EU aspirations down the toilet. The good bits we miss out on are the customs union, we pay import duties on everything we import from the EU into Norway, also the choice of an price of food in Norway is astronomically high, there govt has thrown up protectionist barriers which mean we subsidize farmers and pay on average three times what everyone else down south pays for basic food.


The interesting with the norway case will be in 15 years time when the oil and gas industry gives less and less direct effect on norwegian industry and "oil cities" like stavanger. Stavanger is already a bleak version of the old days because no new oil fields in Norway will be created.

Norway will need to start offer products and serices in other areas, probably EU dominated. How will this effect norwegian. View of EU?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:57 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
The difference between the UK and EU nations is that most British people do not identify themselves as European.


You can only speak for yourself, not for the nation. And indeed, you will stay an EU citizen after Friday, so that is quite strange from you, but ok.

noviorbis77 wrote:
Culturally, we’ve never fitted completely in. We have more in common with our American cousins. America is our strongest ally.


The EU countries are your strongest ally, in almost every objective measure. But feelings, feelings.....

noviorbis77 wrote:
It must come as no surprise to anyone really that the UK would be the first country in the EU to jump ship.


Indeed the old empire thingy, still in the mind of many Brittish people, espcially the older ones.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1219
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:39 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
The difference between the UK and EU nations is that most British people do not identify themselves as European.


You can only speak for yourself, not for the nation. And indeed, you will stay an EU citizen after Friday, so that is quite strange from you, but ok.

noviorbis77 wrote:
Culturally, we’ve never fitted completely in. We have more in common with our American cousins. America is our strongest ally.


The EU countries are your strongest ally, in almost every objective measure. But feelings, feelings.....

noviorbis77 wrote:
It must come as no surprise to anyone really that the UK would be the first country in the EU to jump ship.


Indeed the old empire thingy, still in the mind of many Brittish people, espcially the older ones.


Well look at the polls on the British people and how they identify, most do not identify as European.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/media-centr ... in-the-eu/

Sorry.

The EU countries are not our strongest ally.

Sorry.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 11470
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:13 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Indeed the old empire thingy, still in the mind of many Brittish people, espcially the older ones.

Just to add a little snippet here.
The foundation of the EU is European history, in that one of the primary functions of the union is to ensure that the continent never again disintegrates into war like WWI and WWII.
Yet somehow the history of the UK is marginalized because only the older folks remember the old empire....does make you go hhmmm....
 
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par13del
Posts: 11470
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:15 pm

olle wrote:
The interesting with the norway case will be in 15 years time when the oil and gas industry gives less and less direct effect on norwegian industry and "oil cities" like stavanger. Stavanger is already a bleak version of the old days because no new oil fields in Norway will be created.

Norway will need to start offer products and serices in other areas, probably EU dominated. How will this effect norwegian. View of EU?

Since your society for the most part is operating under EU rules, I don't expect much negative fall out.
Now if you believe that when your population finally decides to become full members that prices will suddenly fall, by that time another tax etc. will be put in place to ensure that falls do not occur. Its the way of the world.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1592
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:45 pm

DNDTUF wrote:
I really do hope we get our independence in Scotland and are able to rejoin the EU.


What’s the SNP’s plan for the economy? Last time round they came up with numerous figures based on oil being at 2013/14 prices, which then collapsed shortly afterwards and we’re entering an era where governments are making plans to ban petrol/diesel cars within 20 years, people being “flight shamed” and fossil fuels increasingly being seen as toxic. Perhaps it isn’t wise to be making an argument for independence based on oil money funding the economy, especially long-term.

I acknowledge that Scotland voted with a majority to remain in the EU and I’m saddened that a majority in England didn’t, however I believe it will take a lot more than a promise to rejoin the EU to sway a majority of people in Scotland to vote for independence. People will want firm answers over bread-and-butter issues and need convincing they will be better off going it alone.

I guess the first clue will be how well the SNP performs in the Scottish Parliament elections next year.
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