par13del wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Indeed the old empire thingy, still in the mind of many Brittish people, espcially the older ones.

Just to add a little snippet here.
The foundation of the EU is European history, in that one of the primary functions of the union is to ensure that the continent never again disintegrates into war like WWI and WWII.
Yet somehow the history of the UK is marginalized because only the older folks remember the old empire....does make you go hhmmm....

The UK also fought just about every European country, so why exclude that?

noviorbis77 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

noviorbis77 wrote:

The difference between the UK and EU nations is that most British people do not identify themselves as European.

You can only speak for yourself, not for the nation. And indeed, you will stay an EU citizen after Friday, so that is quite strange from you, but ok.

noviorbis77 wrote:

Culturally, we’ve never fitted completely in. We have more in common with our American cousins. America is our strongest ally.

The EU countries are your strongest ally, in almost every objective measure. But feelings, feelings.....

noviorbis77 wrote:

It must come as no surprise to anyone really that the UK would be the first country in the EU to jump ship.

Indeed the old empire thingy, still in the mind of many Brittish people, espcially the older ones.

Well look at the polls on the British people and how they identify, most do not identify as European.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/media-centr ... in-the-eu/

Sorry.

The EU countries are not our strongest ally.

Sorry.

No need for apologize, actually, you emphasized the "feeling" argument, thanks for that.

There will be border checks...


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... exit-plans

Dutchy wrote:

noviorbis77 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

You can only speak for yourself, not for the nation. And indeed, you will stay an EU citizen after Friday, so that is quite strange from you, but ok.



The EU countries are your strongest ally, in almost every objective measure. But feelings, feelings.....



Indeed the old empire thingy, still in the mind of many Brittish people, espcially the older ones.

Well look at the polls on the British people and how they identify, most do not identify as European.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/media-centr ... in-the-eu/

Sorry.

The EU countries are not our strongest ally.

Sorry.

No need for apologize, actually, you emphasized the "feeling" argument, thanks for that.

You’re welcome. You may not be our best mate, but I hope we are still friends nonetheless going forward.

seahawk wrote:

Farage made some good points in his last speech: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... bye-speech

And this is the perfect example why the whole discussion between Brexiteers and EU supporters is a wasted time and will never find common ground.

Rather pathetic that MEP’s are not allowed to display their nations flags in the European Parliament.

Wonder why that is

noviorbis77 wrote:

Rather pathetic that MEP’s are not allowed to display their nations flags in the European Parliament.

Not sure why you still care.

noviorbis77 wrote:

https://twitter.com/brexitparty_uk/status/1222570396068827136?s=21

Interesting speech from Mr Farage.

That miserable battleaxe at the end is not impressed

Here's a YouTube version of Nigel's farewell at the EU Assembly.

Favorite line was when he disparagingly invoked the word "Globalism" vs. Populism. 2:32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIgmfpHBiDw

noviorbis77 wrote:

Rather pathetic that MEP’s are not allowed to display their nations flags in the European Parliament.

Wonder why that is

Because flag-waving nitwits are not a new phenomenon nor an exclusively english one, and contrary to many in England we actually remember where that kind of thing tends to end up.

olle wrote:

There will be border checks...


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... exit-plans

So the Boris finally starts telegraphing their followers that if they want regulatory freedom it means goods checked at the border.

I'm impressed. It just took him what, 4 years? Perhaps the resident Brexiteers will now understand what we've been saying in this thread the whole time

So Mr. "there's a free trade area from Iceland to Turkey and we'll be part of it" Gove now serving as the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster might want to apologise.

DIRECTFLT wrote:

noviorbis77 wrote:

https://twitter.com/brexitparty_uk/status/1222570396068827136?s=21

Interesting speech from Mr Farage.

That miserable battleaxe at the end is not impressed

Here's a YouTube version of Nigel's farewell at the EU Assembly.

Favorite line was when he disparagingly invoked the word "Globalism" vs. Populism. 2:32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIgmfpHBiDw

He's so happy to "pass the point of no return". Only a suicidal is happy of that kind of proposal, IRL a sane person always want to have a safe way back, even taking the boldest decisions that's something to consider. He doesn't. For a move which is an historic one.
The ignorant says the learned doubt, the wise thinking.

"You may laugh populism but it's becoming very popular." Just WOW, the level of cynism ! Yeah Nigel, you've been elected on populism ground, not on any project or anything concrete... And seems proud of it, what a shame.

The shitshow ending with the flags is just ridiculous, would these guys represent me I'd be absolutely ashamed of my country.

If anything, a good thing delivered by tomorrow kick off is that these guys are out of EU PARL. Our MEP will not have to listen anymore to this tinny loud group who's there only once in a while to make its shit show AND have to be polite enough to listening to them !!! Let's go back to business for our internal matters, and treat Brexit like an external it as become.

noviorbis77 wrote:

Rather pathetic that MEP’s are not allowed to display their nations flags in the European Parliament.

Wonder why that is

“Pathetic” strikes me as a rather strong word in this situation. As someone who allegedly learned the language, I’m sure you see the perils of misusing words to the extent that they lose all meaning.

Something like what follows is “pathetic”:

“ Newly discovered documents indicate that the British government concealed how often it administered “virginity tests” to female immigrants hoping to enter the country in the 1970s on marriage visas. The documents, unearthed by Marinella Marmo and Evan Smith, legal researchers from Flinders University in Australia, showed that the tests had been administered more than 80 times at the British Embassies in New Delhi and Mumbai. Although the tests, ostensibly to weed out bogus immigration claims, first drew condemnation in the late 1970s, the extent to which the practice had taken place was not clear until now. The British government had previously acknowledged only two cases, both done at Heathrow Airport.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/worl ... itain.html

Banning flags in the EU Parliament are a mere “nuisance” or “irritant” compared to the “pathetic” nature of those who came up with - and implemented - those rules (like, honestly, what civilized country does that?)

Let’s not misuse words.

Should England continue to do most of its trade with Germany, France, Holland, Denmark, Spain, Italy it will be as rule takers. Rules from government representing some 400 million people will tell them how, how many, and how fast they can sell their goods in those countries. The government representing 60 million people will take orders, not give them. They had best get used to being subservient - maybe years in public schools will prepare them for the task.

Kiwirob wrote:

Arion640 wrote:

noviorbis77 wrote:

The difference between the UK and EU nations is that most British people do not identify themselves as European.

Culturally, we’ve never fitted completely in. We have more in common with our American cousins. America is our strongest ally.

It must come as no surprise to anyone really that the UK would be the first country in the EU to jump ship.

I agree, i love Europe, but our culture and connections are much more aligned with the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. We’ve been the outsider for years with the opt out’s we’ve maintained. I think having a previous extensive empire, sharing the same head of state with multiple nations and not being in mainland Europe has mostly been the reason for this.

We are quite connected with Ireland however, as it is an ex UK territory.

In NZ depending on your age there’s either indifference towards the UK, people under 50, and for those over 50 resentment, when the UK joined the EEC and deserted us, stopped buying our products, those boomers remember. NZ will not be an easy touch for any potential free trade agreement.

When i lived there just after the vote in 2016 everyone i met was very supportive of brexit. They wanted to trade with us.

Arion640 wrote:

When i lived there just after the vote in 2016 everyone i met was very supportive of brexit. They wanted to trade with us.

And when the UK entered its application to the WTO, New Zealand was among those countries who vetoed that application right away.

They may have been so happy about Brexit because the UK is now at their mercy for a change.

As they say, karma is a [rather capricious and unforgiving person]...

frmrCapCadet wrote:

Should England continue to do most of its trade with Germany, France, Holland, Denmark, Spain, Italy it will be as rule takers. Rules from government representing some 400 million people will tell them how, how many, and how fast they can sell their goods in those countries. The government representing 60 million people will take orders, not give them. They had best get used to being subservient - maybe years in public schools will prepare them for the task.

~450 million : ~65 million.
Only emphasizing your point further.

Dutchy wrote:

par13del wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Indeed the old empire thingy, still in the mind of many Brittish people, espcially the older ones.

Just to add a little snippet here.
The foundation of the EU is European history, in that one of the primary functions of the union is to ensure that the continent never again disintegrates into war like WWI and WWII.
Yet somehow the history of the UK is marginalized because only the older folks remember the old empire....does make you go hhmmm....

The UK also fought just about every European country, so why exclude that?

You tell me, you seem to imply that the only reason why the UK is leaving the EU is because old people are nostalgic abut the past.
I guess we should accept that, after the vote the racist and xenophobic card was also thrown out, so it is what it is...I guess it will never be accepted as a show of democracy, I could have agreed with that if it was only one vote, but multiple...

par13del wrote:

You tell me, you seem to imply that the only reason why the UK is leaving the EU is because old people are nostalgic abut the past.
I guess we should accept that, after the vote the racist and xenophobic card was also thrown out, so it is what it is...I guess it will never be accepted as a show of democracy, I could have agreed with that if it was only one vote, but multiple...

One doesn't exclude the other.

Democracy has always been vulnerable to manipulation of the voting public, same as autocracy has always been vulnerable to character deficiencies of the respective autocrat.

And the Brexit campaign has been completely dominated by the fully artificial and made up mythology about the EU mostly invented by the billionaire-operated UK press with an almost complete lack of information on the actual EU.

Democracy? Yeah, with a tiny and only relative majority and just an advisory referendum which should have (but wasn't) followed by proper scrutiny of the actual options and consequences.

Formally it's done and dusted in a few hours, but that doesn't make it any less of a historical blunder.

Congartualtions to our British friends for leaving the EU today. Welcome to freedom!

It will be funny if some day England needs to use article 49 proceedings. I read on some forums people posting that if the UK wants to come back, it must be with all rebates and opt-out. The wake up call will be brutal

The mayor of the German village Brunsmark will lose his job because of brexit:
https://apnews.com/e6a85eeb0d2c5804ddb9fe1ffd349ae0

AP wrote:

In the German village of Brunsmark, Brexit is forcing Scotsman Iain Macnab to cut short his third term as mayor that wasn’t due to end until 2023. German authorities told him last year that his voting rights and, with them, his mayorship of the village of 170 people must end with Britain’s EU exit.

I wish our European friends all the best. I love the European food, people and culture. A fantastic continent that I’ve not explored nearly enough of yet. I hope we can be best of friends in the future.

Olddog wrote:

It will be funny if some day England needs to use article 49 proceedings. I read on some forums people posting that if the UK wants to come back, it must be with all rebates and opt-out. The wake up call will be brutal

I suspect it won't be for quite some time before an attempt to rejoin is made. Except for the Lib Dems perhaps, I can't see any Tory or Labour leader pledge to make rejoining the EU party policy anytime soon, not even the current Labour leadership candidates if their recent experience of losing swathes of safe seats that voted to leave is anything to go by. Unless they're keen to see Labour become even more irrelevant by lecturing their heartlands about how they were wrong to vote the way they did in 2016 and ensure a larger Tory majority in 2024? Remember, some people who voted Tory last month did so for the first time in a long time or for the first time ever. I guess part of that will depend how things pan out over the coming years.

Even if it does happen, I fully expect any future membership to be on completely different terms to what it has been for the last 47 years, though I'll try to avoid speculating what they will be until such a time ever occurs.

Grizzly410 wrote:

DIRECTFLT wrote:

noviorbis77 wrote:

https://twitter.com/brexitparty_uk/status/1222570396068827136?s=21

Interesting speech from Mr Farage.

Here's a YouTube version of Nigel's farewell at the EU Assembly.
Favorite line was when he disparagingly invoked the word "Globalism" vs. Populism. 2:32

"You may laugh populism but it's becoming very popular." Just WOW, the level of cynism ! Yeah Nigel, you've been elected on populism ground, not on any project or anything concrete... And seems proud of it, what a shame.

That's exactly what I thought as well.

I can only hope, and I believe, that the era of populism will come to an end. Similar maybe to the age of enlightenment after the medieval times.
Not today, not next year but for example once reality kicks in after the Brexit-hype.

The real situation will start to show in march when EU UK FTA negotiations and future relationship negotiations start.

From EU this will be presented as the famous staiways. UK government knows this very well, and the effect is that Boris now start to change the message bit by bit like the last message that the borders will get bigger checks then today.

The second part is in April when some part of the London financial right to do trade in Euro gets limitations.

I expect UK to get less and less EU students coming while erasmus will end and I have difficult to see new students joining studies in UK right now who expect financing under the erasmus scheme.

Kiwirob wrote:

Who was supportive? After the UK dumbed down the working holiday visa, far less kiwis now go to the UK for an OE, it's just not as easy as it was when I went in 1996, so young kiwis go elsewhere, the ties between NZ and the UK aren't as strong as they were.

Which was how the process was supposed to be, joining the EEC meant diminishing the UK's involvement with the Commonwealth, not just NZ.
One cannot be a member of two clubs at the same time.

speedygonzales wrote:

The mayor of the German village Brunsmark will lose his job because of brexit:
https://apnews.com/e6a85eeb0d2c5804ddb9fe1ffd349ae0

AP wrote:

In the German village of Brunsmark, Brexit is forcing Scotsman Iain Macnab to cut short his third term as mayor that wasn’t due to end until 2023. German authorities told him last year that his voting rights and, with them, his mayorship of the village of 170 people must end with Britain’s EU exit.

Yes, in France I learned there were around 1600 brits that we have to leave their various local elected positions.

It may seems a lot but as we have more than 500 000 elected in various positions...

Dutchy wrote:

noviorbis77 wrote:

The difference between the UK and EU nations is that most British people do not identify themselves as European.

You can only speak for yourself, not for the nation. And indeed, you will stay an EU citizen after Friday, so that is quite strange from you, but ok.

noviorbis77 wrote:

Culturally, we’ve never fitted completely in. We have more in common with our American cousins. America is our strongest ally.

The EU countries are your strongest ally, in almost every objective measure. But feelings, feelings.....

noviorbis77 wrote:

It must come as no surprise to anyone really that the UK would be the first country in the EU to jump ship.

Indeed the old empire thingy, still in the mind of many Brittish people, espcially the older ones.

He certainly doesn't speak for me, any of my family and as far as I know all my friends with British connections. People who actually experience life outside their own backyard and culture will know how limited and limiting the nationalist mindset is. I hated my parents for making me move countries as a kid, but looking back I realised it was probably the most character-forming period of my life. Not only changing my own preconceptions but also putting me in touch with many like-minded others in the "international community" - both wealthy ("ex-pats") and poor ("immigrants").

Incidentally, almost all the Americans I knew as a young adult - also being of that international community - were far more "European" than Noviorbis would recognise. They themselves despaired of the stereotype insular, narrow-minded, culturally ignorant cliche of their fellow countrymen, much as I do of the stereotype insular, narrow-minded, culturally ignorant cliche of British citizens out there. Only in that respect is Noviorbis right that the British and the US Americans have more in common than with other Europeans. Not something to be proud of.

par13del wrote:

Which was how the process was supposed to be, joining the EEC meant diminishing the UK's involvement with the Commonwealth, not just NZ.
One cannot be a member of two clubs at the same time.

This is new. Please demonstrate how this statement is based in fact. Specifically, did the UK leave the Commonwealth after joining the EEC? If not, how did it manage to stay a member of two clubs at the same time?

The Commonwealth’s irrelevance has more to do with the bulk of former Commonwealth countries seeing it as a vestige of a colonial past they do not look back on fondly, and demographic changes in the “white” colonies/dominions, with the arrival of non-British European and non-European immigrants who could care less about the UK.

The Commonwealth was essentially a halfway house for newly independent nations to find their way in a changing world. Now that they’ve steadied themselves, few of the Asian and African states are any value in it. It has therefor become meaningless for everyone. This was a historic inevitability. EU membership - or not - would have had no bearing on it.

Boeing74741R wrote:

Even if it does happen, I fully expect any future membership to be on completely different terms to what it has been for the last 47 years, though I'll try to avoid speculating what they will be until such a time ever occurs.

Not "completely" different, just without those extra special opt-outs and rebates.

Arion640 wrote:

When i lived there just after the vote in 2016 everyone i met was very supportive of brexit. They wanted to trade with us.

Everybody (even North Korea) wants to trade. It’s the terms and conditions that are contentious - hence protracted multi year trade negotiations.

As an aside, the Anglosphere tends to be very polite. Sometimes so polite that it doesn’t tell visitors what it really thinks. You’ll probably have a similar experience in Canada. But if you look closely enough and ask the right questions:

”Majority of Canadians are unsympathetic or somewhat unsympathetic towards the idea of Brexit – A majority of Canadians are unsympathetic (48%) or somewhat unsympathetic (16%) towards the idea of Brexit. Just over one in ten Canadians said they were very sympathetic (11%) or somewhat sympathetic (13%). Thirteen per cent are unsure.”

And so on:

“ Over six in ten Canadians say the European Union should be the priority relation for the policy field of trade and investment – When asked who Canada should choose for its relational priorities for the policy field of trade and investment, over three in five Canadians said that relations with the European Union should be a priority (67%). Eighteen per cent said the United Kingdom should be the priority relation and fifteen per cent were unsure.”

https://www.nanos.co/wp-content/uploads ... d-tabs.pdf

I doubt many of these fine folk would have told you off in person.

SomebodyInTLS wrote:

. Only in that respect is Noviorbis right that the British and the US Americans have more in common than with other Europeans. Not something to be proud of.

From my own anecdotal observations time ago as an expat in the US, Europeans (including British and Irish) tended to bunch together.

Other than the language life in the UK is more similar to, say, the Netherlands or Germany than to the US.

DIRECTFLT wrote:

Here's a YouTube version of Nigel's farewell at the EU Assembly.

Favorite line was when he disparagingly invoked the word "Globalism" vs. Populism. 2:32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIgmfpHBiDw

And his point is proven immediately by the nitwit demanding they put their flags away.

She must be pretty upset about losing $24-25 billion (US) a year.


Congrats Britain!

“It has been said that Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.”

Winston Churchill

Congratulations. After a long and tough journey Britain closed a chapter in its history. I used to think maybe referendum was a mistake, but Boris Johnson reelection confirms it is the will of majority and need to be respected in a democracy.

dtw2hyd wrote:

Congratulations. After a long and tough journey Britain closed a chapter in its history. I used to think maybe referendum was a mistake, but Boris Johnson reelection confirms it is the will of majority and need to be respected in a democracy.

Closed? Doubt it. Its going to drag on for a while yet with the negotiations.

As for the rest, I guess you’re now supportive of the BJP and everything they do given their much bigger reelection victory? Or is this a case of double standards?

ElPistolero wrote:

par13del wrote:

Which was how the process was supposed to be, joining the EEC meant diminishing the UK's involvement with the Commonwealth, not just NZ.
One cannot be a member of two clubs at the same time.

This is new. Please demonstrate how this statement is based in fact. Specifically, did the UK leave the Commonwealth after joining the EEC? If not, how did it manage to stay a member of two clubs at the same time?

My bad english, did not notice that DIMINISH is the same as LEAVE.
I was under the impression that one of the reasons why the UK trade with the commonwealth declined was due to the fact that for the most part, the commonwealth nations did not have or meet the standards that the European nations were moving to, in any event, the poster and I was talking about trade.

ElPistolero wrote:

As for the rest, I guess you’re now supportive of the BJP and everything they do given their much bigger reelection victory? Or is this a case of double standards?

No I am not. Please don't associate me with frat house events.

Just others cannot call us names for electing Trump. They just need to look in the mirror.

dtw2hyd wrote:

Congratulations. After a long and tough journey Britain closed a chapter in its history. I used to think maybe referendum was a mistake, but Boris Johnson reelection confirms it is the will of majority and need to be respected in a democracy.

It isn't. He didn't win a majority in the popular vote – it was only the highly distorting UK electoral system which threw a large majority to him for only a minority of the votes. (Similar to how Donald Trump lost the public vote by 3 millions but was still installed anyway.)

Klaus wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

Congratulations. After a long and tough journey Britain closed a chapter in its history. I used to think maybe referendum was a mistake, but Boris Johnson reelection confirms it is the will of majority and need to be respected in a democracy.

It isn't. He didn't win a majority in the popular vote – it was only the highly distorting UK electoral system which threw a large majority to him for only a minority of the votes. (Similar to how Donald Trump lost the public vote by 3 millions but was still installed anyway.)

US Presidential elections aren’t a popularity contest. Trump won the election and he was not “installed”. Wanna see what a popularity contest looks like? Visit a State where one party or another rules by an iron fist leaving the minority party irrelevant and subject to the will of the majority. It’s a crap show.

par13del wrote:

I was under the impression that one of the reasons why the UK trade with the commonwealth declined was due to the fact that for the most part, the commonwealth nations did not have or meet the standards that the European nations were moving to, in any event, the poster and I was talking about trade.

UK trade with the commonwealth declined partly because of geography (Canada was always going to focus more on the US, Australia lately on Asia) and mostly because the “free trade” racket of the colonial era involved extracting raw resources from Asian and African colonies and selling them much more expensive finished goods, while actively and/or passively opposing or slowing industrialization, particularly in the non-white colonies. It was wealth transfer, not “trade”. A model like that was never sustainable.

Note that India’s experience with that type of extractive resource exploitation and wealth transfer prompted it to adopt an autarchic heavily protected economy for the first four decades of independence. Now, you can have a Can-NZ-Aus set up, but that’s hardly “commonwealth”.

Such a sad day.

We now start the process of trying to re-negotiate what we have just thrown away, whilst accepting a smaller position on the global stage with less influence and less personal rights and freedoms.

Yet still I have not heard a coherent argument for Brexit other than emotional response.... We are abut to learn that hard economic realities trump emotions.... but no doubt those in charge and our toxic media will still blame Brussels, just like they always have.

Farewell my European friends.. I hope we realise the madness of our ways and return soon... a fuller participator, paying our proper full rate and in Schengen with our rights fully restored.

It may take time to achieve and to reverse this patriotic xenophobic populist nonsense... but over time, with patience, facts and open minds, whilst being willing to explore the evidence and listen to others we will.

Continue the fight..... good will always prevail.

It is a wonderful day. It’ll be only matched by the celebrations of 31st December.

Yes we had it good, without the ridiculous Euro currency and the damaging Schengen agreement, but democracy prevails and we can look forward to the next glorious chapter in our proud nations history.

noviorbis77 wrote:

the next glorious chapter in our proud nations history.

Like I said:

Richard28 wrote:

patriotic xenophobic populist nonsense

Richard28 wrote:

noviorbis77 wrote:

the next glorious chapter in our proud nations history.

Like I said:

Richard28 wrote:

patriotic xenophobic populist nonsense

Ok.

seahawk wrote:

Farage made some good points in his last speech: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... bye-speech

And this is the perfect example why the whole discussion between Brexiteers and EU supporters is a wasted time and will never find common ground.

I don't see many points in that article.

Consider this : the EU which he's calling undemocratic and antidemocratic allowed him to be elected and participate in its dealings for 20 years.

His own country, on the other hand, never allowed him that, thanks to the undemocratic first by the post system.

How's that for a point ?

noviorbis77 wrote:

It is a wonderful day. It’ll be only matched by the celebrations of 31st December.

Yes we had it good, without the ridiculous Euro currency and the damaging Schengen agreement, but democracy prevails and we can look forward to the next glorious chapter in our proud nations history.

Enjoy the freedom and celebrate. I hope the 31st December will get a better official celebration and Big Ben will be heard!

noviorbis77 wrote:

It is a wonderful day. It’ll be only matched by the celebrations of 31st December.

Yes we had it good, without the ridiculous Euro currency and the damaging Schengen agreement, but democracy prevails and we can look forward to the next glorious chapter in our proud nations history.

Are you talking about your native UK or your native Ireland?