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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:06 pm

Richard28 wrote:
Farewell my European friends..


I would say, see you later and no worries, we won't hold it against you, everyone is allowed to make a mistake or two. And certainly not the ones who fought against this error and believe that the future lies within the EU instead of believing in Unicorns.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Jetty
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:24 pm

BoJo is going full steam ahead. :hyper: :hyper: :hyper:
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flyguy89
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:27 pm

I wonder how feasible/realistic it would be for the UK to join the USMC (formerly NAFTA) trade agreement? I'm sure the US and Canada would be open.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Should England continue to do most of its trade with Germany, France, Holland, Denmark, Spain, Italy it will be as rule takers. Rules from government representing some 400 million people will tell them how, how many, and how fast they can sell their goods in those countries. The government representing 60 million people will take orders, not give them. They had best get used to being subservient - maybe years in public schools will prepare them for the task.

Wow, the essence of the European project is really shining through there :sarcastic: So it's either join the galactic empire or perpetual subservience? There can't be a third way for the EU to have good and mutually beneficial trade and economic agreements with other countries? Nice.

Aesma wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Farage made some good points in his last speech: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... bye-speech

And this is the perfect example why the whole discussion between Brexiteers and EU supporters is a wasted time and will never find common ground.


I don't see many points in that article.

Consider this : the EU which he's calling undemocratic and antidemocratic allowed him to be elected and participate in its dealings for 20 years.

His own country, on the other hand, never allowed him that, thanks to the undemocratic first by the post system.

How's that for a point ?

The EU is probably one of the largest and least democratic governing institutions in the world. Yeah, you can say he's gotten to "participate" as a member of the European parliament, but the EU parliament itself is essentially powerless and toothless...so you have the veneer of democracy with nothing ultimately behind it.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:55 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
https://twitter.com/brexitparty_uk/status/1222570396068827136?s=21

Interesting speech from Mr Farage.

That miserable battleaxe at the end is not impressed :)


Here's a YouTube version of Nigel's farewell at the EU Assembly.

Favorite line was when he disparagingly invoked the word "Globalism" vs. Populism. :P 2:32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIgmfpHBiDw


Wait a minute. Isn't the plan to make the UK "global" ?
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:58 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
I wonder how feasible/realistic it would be for the UK to join the USMC (formerly NAFTA) trade agreement? I'm sure the US and Canada would be open.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Should England continue to do most of its trade with Germany, France, Holland, Denmark, Spain, Italy it will be as rule takers. Rules from government representing some 400 million people will tell them how, how many, and how fast they can sell their goods in those countries. The government representing 60 million people will take orders, not give them. They had best get used to being subservient - maybe years in public schools will prepare them for the task.

Wow, the essence of the European project is really shining through there :sarcastic: So it's either join the galactic empire or perpetual subservience? There can't be a third way for the EU to have good and mutually beneficial trade and economic agreements with other countries? Nice.

Aesma wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Farage made some good points in his last speech: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... bye-speech

And this is the perfect example why the whole discussion between Brexiteers and EU supporters is a wasted time and will never find common ground.


I don't see many points in that article.

Consider this : the EU which he's calling undemocratic and antidemocratic allowed him to be elected and participate in its dealings for 20 years.

His own country, on the other hand, never allowed him that, thanks to the undemocratic first by the post system.

How's that for a point ?

The EU is probably one of the largest and least democratic governing institutions in the world. Yeah, you can say he's gotten to "participate" as a member of the European parliament, but the EU parliament itself is essentially powerless and toothless...so you have the veneer of democracy with nothing ultimately behind it.


The problem, as I see it, is the EU gives huge veto powers (I don't think they are absolute) to each member. The UK was a frequent veto-er. Any special dispensation the UK wants has to be approved by many other countries. At least one of which would find that beneficial dispensation to the UK was harmful to them.
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Arion640
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:13 pm

#weareeuropean #closestfriends
 
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Tugger
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:32 pm

Aesma wrote:
Wait a minute. Isn't the plan to make the UK "global" ?

USMCA-UK

Just wait....

Tugg
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Bostrom
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:54 pm

Saw a short clip on the BBC from the Brexit party in Parliament square where they played The Final Countdown, by the band Europe. Not sure how to interpret that…
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:01 pm

And we are out :)

I can hear many a firework going off in celebration from my house.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:07 pm

So.

Article 50 isn't active anymore. Isn't it about time to amend it ? :D
I'd say for efficiency reason it should be added something like : to be triggered, art 50 notification must come with an expressed politic declaration, a reasonable project for the future relationship structure.

For the relationship with UK ? Actually no meaningful visible change right now, just a point of no return have been crossed. :crackup:
Just like the last 3,5 years we'll have negotiations, leaks from meetings, press conference, document release..... Brexit as usual, but with 2 deadline planned in 2020 !

Now, celebrate it leavers ! Before it's time to show us all what all of this was worth...

Edit : fun fact, 13min after brexit, 80% of the french live news broadcast are back on national matters.
Last edited by Grizzly410 on Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:09 pm

At the stroke of midnight the UK has just succeeded in turning itself into a pumpkin.

Well done!
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:09 pm

I feel sad for the UK.

Au revoir, my friends.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:26 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:

Edit : fun fact, 13min after brexit, 80% of the french live news broadcast are back on national matters.



yep its sure is a fun fact, you are still talking about :D :D
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:28 pm

DL717 wrote:
US Presidential elections aren’t a popularity contest.

That's actually the whole point of any democratic election!

Trump won the election and he was not “installed”.

He actually lost the election by 3 million votes and the electoral college declared him the winner anyway.

The irony is that the whole purpose of the electoral college was supposed to be a last bulwark against obviously incompetent or corrupt persons reaching the presidency.

In actual fact, it did the exact opposite of what it had been created for, and even overriding the popular vote for it.

Wanna see what a popularity contest looks like? Visit a State where one party or another rules by an iron fist leaving the minority party irrelevant and subject to the will of the majority. It’s a crap show.

In the US it is indeed, with many states having significant democratic majorities in elections but still massive seat wins for the Republicans. That electoral system is so obviously and so laughably corrupt and distorted that it can't be called "democratic" without using heavy quotes.

It's one of the things the founders of the USA failed to get rid of with independence from Britain, and it's served neither of the two countries well.
Last edited by Klaus on Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:31 pm

Richard28 wrote:
Farewell my European friends.. I hope we realise the madness of our ways and return soon... a fuller participator, paying our proper full rate and in Schengen with our rights fully restored.

It may take time to achieve and to reverse this patriotic xenophobic populist nonsense... but over time, with patience, facts and open minds, whilst being willing to explore the evidence and listen to others we will.

Continue the fight..... good will always prevail.

Our door will remain open, and we'll never forget that the UK has many open-minded people who aren't beholden to propaganda lies.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:37 pm

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:

Edit : fun fact, 13min after brexit, 80% of the french live news broadcast are back on national matters.



yep its sure is a fun fact, you are still talking about :D :D


Talking on this forum about Brexit I'm definitely not representative of the french public.
I'm interested in the topic, French people in general just does not give a shaite as demonstrated by the broadcast stats. That's all I wanted to say.

btw, at 00:20 the last channel switched to US news and TRUMP
I think that's something noticeable that tonight is a nearly non event in France (and Spain too, FWIW).
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:39 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
The EU is probably one of the largest and least democratic governing institutions in the world. Yeah, you can say he's gotten to "participate" as a member of the European parliament, but the EU parliament itself is essentially powerless and toothless...so you have the veneer of democracy with nothing ultimately behind it.

The EU parliament just freely voted not to exercise its veto against the current Brexit deal, and it will have vetoes against every single deal with the UK yet to come. You clearly have no idea what the European Parliament even is, what it does, which powers it does have and why those matter existentially for the UK now.

On the other side of the channel the UK government has effectively sidelined the House of Commons in Brexit matters for an absolute minimum of scrutiny (if any) and the completely undemocratic unelected House of Lords would actually be an impediment for the UK in new accession negotiations.

You need a serious reality check – the platitudes you're spewing are completely contradicted by even the most basic facts, and we could go on and on about the very much democratic structure of the European Union, but then I'm talking about the actual, real European Union while you seem to be fully steeped in absurd propaganda which couldn't be further from the truth if you tried.
 
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angusjt
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:13 am

A few quick points on my part:

A rejoin referendum would be electoral suicide if implemented as part of the UK Labour platform for at least the next two election cycles, if there's a way to remain uncompetitive in North-East England & Wales, this is it.

The looming demographic crisis to be faced by Germany (and later on much of southern Europe) is heading the entire EU into a great unknown.

Immigration to the UK from India, Nigeria & Pakistan will only increase with the UK out of the EU.

Brexit will mean very little for Australia or New Zealand, perhaps the expansion of the Trans-Tasman Travel Agreement to include the UK could be on the cards down the line, but when it comes to trade we're far more at home in Asia.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:45 am

Klaus wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
The EU is probably one of the largest and least democratic governing institutions in the world. Yeah, you can say he's gotten to "participate" as a member of the European parliament, but the EU parliament itself is essentially powerless and toothless...so you have the veneer of democracy with nothing ultimately behind it.

The EU parliament just freely voted not to exercise its veto against the current Brexit deal, and it will have vetoes against every single deal with the UK yet to come. You clearly have no idea what the European Parliament even is, what it does, which powers it does have and why those matter existentially for the UK now.

On the other side of the channel the UK government has effectively sidelined the House of Commons in Brexit matters for an absolute minimum of scrutiny (if any) and the completely undemocratic unelected House of Lords would actually be an impediment for the UK in new accession negotiations.

You need a serious reality check – the platitudes you're spewing are completely contradicted by even the most basic facts, and we could go on and on about the very much democratic structure of the European Union, but then I'm talking about the actual, real European Union while you seem to be fully steeped in absurd propaganda which couldn't be further from the truth if you tried.

It can't propose legislation, its approval is not required to implement most policy, and has limited veto powers. It is not a sovereign parliament like most other democratic governments.

You need to chill.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:47 am

angusjt wrote:
A few quick points on my part:

A rejoin referendum would be electoral suicide if implemented as part of the UK Labour platform for at least the next two election cycles, if there's a way to remain uncompetitive in North-East England & Wales, this is it.

The looming demographic crisis to be faced by Germany (and later on much of southern Europe) is heading the entire EU into a great unknown.

Immigration to the UK from India, Nigeria & Pakistan will only increase with the UK out of the EU.

Brexit will mean very little for Australia or New Zealand, perhaps the expansion of the Trans-Tasman Travel Agreement to include the UK could be on the cards down the line, but when it comes to trade we're far more at home in Asia.

Translation: You have no clue what to actually do now as you have actually managed to catch the bus.

Reality is a pretty harsh place when all you've been running on have been delusions.
 
marcelh
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:00 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
And we are out :)

I can hear many a firework going off in celebration from my house.

Let’s wait after all the negotiations. Maybe you’ll end up like Norway.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:04 am

So the UK has no more vote within the EU and all the UK flags are gone. Another year of this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ltbewr
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:11 am

So we see some in the UK celebrating like its Guy Fawkes Night, only this time the revolt succeeded.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:30 am

Sad to see the UK leave, but it was probably inevitable that it would leave at some stage given the country's history. Having presided over an empire for years, it was never going to sit comfortably in an entity where it was never going to be in the driving seat (on the right hand side, of course :smile: )

Having said that, I wish them well on their new journey: it's the beginning of a fascinating experiment.
 
b4thefall
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:48 am

Don't forget about us here in N.Ireland and Scotland who voted to remain, but are getting dragged out because of the English and Welsh voters.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:49 am

It will be interesting to read carefully the wording of negotiation guidelines given to Barnier. We will have a good idea about the future relationship.
Sentence from Belgian PM at press conference forbidden due to new rules
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:16 am

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
It is a wonderful day. It’ll be only matched by the celebrations of 31st December.

Yes we had it good, without the ridiculous Euro currency and the damaging Schengen agreement, but democracy prevails and we can look forward to the next glorious chapter in our proud nations history.


Are you talking about your native UK or your native Ireland?


Ireland did the right thing not joining Schengen, it would of ended with a hard border in ireland. If the doom mungers are correct, ireland will be worse off with the UK out of the EU.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:19 am

[twoid][/twoid]
b4thefall wrote:
Don't forget about us here in N.Ireland and Scotland who voted to remain, but are getting dragged out because of the English and Welsh voters.


Yes that’s unfortunate about NI, but they are now more in the EU than the rest of the UK. Scotland however, would still tried to have separate regardless of how brexit turned out.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:23 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Farage made some good points in his last speech: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... bye-speech

And this is the perfect example why the whole discussion between Brexiteers and EU supporters is a wasted time and will never find common ground.


Rather pathetic that MEP’s are not allowed to display their nations flags in the European Parliament.

Wonder why that is ;)


Because they're MEPs, there to act in the interest of all Europeans.

Just like a British MP isn't in Westminster just to get pork for his/her constituency, but to steer the whole country in one direction.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:01 am

Whether for or against it was a historic night last night .


https://news.sky.com/video/britain-has- ... n-11923276
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:26 am

It is a beautiful morning in the south of England this morning.

Blue skies and bright sun.

Very fitting.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:11 pm

One month ago Javid promised all departments would get an increased budget of at least inflation.

One month later he's ordering all departments to cut spending by 5%.

I guess Brexit is going well, very well indeed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IcE6wgkxTo
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:00 pm

Aesma wrote:
One month ago Javid promised all departments would get an increased budget of at least inflation.

One month later he's ordering all departments to cut spending by 5%.

I guess Brexit is going well, very well indeed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IcE6wgkxTo


Each department has been told to identify potential cost savings worth up to 5%, by 2 March, not that they must save 5%

The savings are from identifying underperforming projects that could be scrapped, to cut costs in order to boost funds for hospitals, schools.

If the department can identify saving from underperforming projects is that such a bad thing?

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.the ... t-eve/amp/
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:21 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
It can't propose legislation, its approval is not required to implement most policy, and has limited veto powers. It is not a sovereign parliament like most other democratic governments.

Veto powers are not "limited". It's in the name!

And overall there is a lack of perspective:

Every single decision taken in the European Union goes back to duly elected politicians who are accountable for it. Every single one!

What is now the EU has been created by treaties between democractically elected governments of the member states, and to this day those democratically elected governments hold the primary decision power in the EU as embodied in their assembly in the European Council where the primary political decisions are negotiated and voted on.

The democratically elected leaders delegate the execution of those policies to the appointed European Commission, which is as accountable to the elected leaders as any national public administration is to the respective elected national leader.

And in recent years the European parliament has gained more and more power based on its separate democratic legitimacy, and that trend will certainly continue.

What we're talking about here, though, is the balance between two equally democratically legitimized institutions, just on different paths from the voters to the respective decisions.

So any claim that the EU was somehow "undemocratic" because the democratically elected national leaders collectively hold more powers than the equally democratically elected MEPs is very obviously false and has no merit in the facts.

The problem with Brexit propaganda is that the lies are spread by always only picking and choosing very selective parts of the facts and then completely distorting the context to get the audience to swallow the lie.

It's not a new tactic – it's always been done that way for all kinds of devious purposes.

You need to chill.

My rights and opportunities are completely unchanged except for the borders around the UK going up at the end of the year.

You on the other hand have just lost all influence on the EU, your citizenship rights and all international treaties the EU holds, and there is only a temporary reprieve on some of the consequences.

Apart from my abstract interest in the UK I have nothing to worry about. You on the other hand...
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:24 pm

A101 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
One month ago Javid promised all departments would get an increased budget of at least inflation.

One month later he's ordering all departments to cut spending by 5%.

I guess Brexit is going well, very well indeed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IcE6wgkxTo


Each department has been told to identify potential cost savings worth up to 5%, by 2 March, not that they must save 5%

The savings are from identifying underperforming projects that could be scrapped, to cut costs in order to boost funds for hospitals, schools.

If the department can identify saving from underperforming projects is that such a bad thing?

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.the ... t-eve/amp/

Indiscriminately scrapping "underperforming" projects instead of actually making them work is often counterproductive, because "underperformance" is often connected to underfunding in the first place, but that is of course the general conservative austerity mindset to "prove" that all governments ought to be scrapped so taxes on the wealthy can be slashed (not just in the UK).
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:26 pm

A101 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
One month ago Javid promised all departments would get an increased budget of at least inflation.

One month later he's ordering all departments to cut spending by 5%.

I guess Brexit is going well, very well indeed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IcE6wgkxTo


Each department has been told to identify potential cost savings worth up to 5%, by 2 March, not that they must save 5%

The savings are from identifying underperforming projects that could be scrapped, to cut costs in order to boost funds for hospitals, schools.

If the department can identify saving from underperforming projects is that such a bad thing?

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.the ... t-eve/amp/


A 5% cut on the back of a booming economy/ heavy public spending might make good sense in the name of efficiency. In this case, it’s a 5% cut on government spending that’s already been whittled down to the essentials after 10 years of underfunding and austerity.

Looks like the UK is preparing for low tax revenue either due to fears about the economy, or planned tax cuts.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:28 pm

Making the UK more efficient - good!
 
Olddog
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:47 pm

They need that money to fund border controls :)
Sentence from Belgian PM at press conference forbidden due to new rules
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:07 pm

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
One month ago Javid promised all departments would get an increased budget of at least inflation.

One month later he's ordering all departments to cut spending by 5%.

I guess Brexit is going well, very well indeed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IcE6wgkxTo


Each department has been told to identify potential cost savings worth up to 5%, by 2 March, not that they must save 5%

The savings are from identifying underperforming projects that could be scrapped, to cut costs in order to boost funds for hospitals, schools.

If the department can identify saving from underperforming projects is that such a bad thing?

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.the ... t-eve/amp/

Indiscriminately scrapping "underperforming" projects instead of actually making them work is often counterproductive, because "underperformance" is often connected to underfunding in the first place, but that is of course the general conservative austerity mindset to "prove" that all governments ought to be scrapped so taxes on the wealthy can be slashed (not just in the UK).



They are not doing anything more than what free enterprise does within the confines of the business, if the project does not represent VfM then they should be cut, just because a project looks good on paper and is underperforming does not mean you just throw more money at it, Government still has to work to the same principles of free enterprise, if a project is costing the taxpayer a billion £ and only returns a million in productivity or benifits should it not be stop as it’s wasteful
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:19 pm

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:

Each department has been told to identify potential cost savings worth up to 5%, by 2 March, not that they must save 5%

The savings are from identifying underperforming projects that could be scrapped, to cut costs in order to boost funds for hospitals, schools.

If the department can identify saving from underperforming projects is that such a bad thing?

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.the ... t-eve/amp/

Indiscriminately scrapping "underperforming" projects instead of actually making them work is often counterproductive, because "underperformance" is often connected to underfunding in the first place, but that is of course the general conservative austerity mindset to "prove" that all governments ought to be scrapped so taxes on the wealthy can be slashed (not just in the UK).



They are not doing anything more than what free enterprise does within the confines of the business, if the project does not represent VfM then they should be cut, just because a project looks good on paper and is underperforming does not mean you just throw more money at it, Government still has to work to the same principles of free enterprise, if a project is costing the taxpayer a billion £ and only returns a million in productivity or benifits should it not be stop as it’s wasteful


What makes you think there’s anything left to find after 10 years of austerity and underfunding cuts? If they couldn’t find over that period, what epiphany do you expect them to have now?

As in the private sector, you get what you pay for.
 
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:36 pm

Public departements aren't anything like enterprises, they're there to spend money on the public, not to get it from them (aside from the one getting the taxes, obviously).

Underperforming projects are not the ones that will be cut, because they're the ones outsourced to Tory donors, so those will stay, you can bet on it.
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:54 pm

Arion640 wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
b4thefall wrote:
Don't forget about us here in N.Ireland and Scotland who voted to remain, but are getting dragged out because of the English and Welsh voters.


Yes that’s unfortunate about NI, but they are now more in the EU than the rest of the UK. Scotland however, would still tried to have separate regardless of how brexit turned out.



About Scotland, sure, there is a minority who wants to get rid of you no matter what, no matter how much it hurts their national interest (sounds familiar right), but part is persuaded by arguments and are less dogmatic. These people have one more powerful argument: the UK has left the European framework and that is not what the Scotts wanted and voted for (neither did the UK, but that is in the past now). So you are presenting just a bit of the argument here, it is an incomplete picture.
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:07 pm

A101 wrote:
Each department has been told to identify potential cost savings worth up to 5%, by 2 March, not that they must save 5%

The savings are from identifying underperforming projects that could be scrapped, to cut costs in order to boost funds for hospitals, schools.

If the department can identify saving from underperforming projects is that such a bad thing?


I recommend watching the episode: Yes minister, Doing the Honours. See how that will work out :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:09 pm

Jetty wrote:
BoJo is going full steam ahead. :hyper: :hyper: :hyper:
Image


Let Johnson play in such a machine, there he can't do any damage.
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JJJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:16 pm

Big business increasingly angry at Brexit platitudes.

Boss of FTSE packaging giant DS Smith urges the Government: Don't paper over Brexit cracks
The man behind Amazon delivery boxes is nervous about Britain's future relationship with the EU
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ont-paper/

It’s not often you see the boss of a FTSE 100 firm doing an impression of the trade secretary as an open-mouthed goldfish.

But it’s a measure of the exasperation Miles Roberts, chief executive of DS Smith, feels about the Government’s lack of clarity on Britain’s future trading relationship with the EU.

“We said to Liz Truss, ‘The opportunities, please, where are they?’ She said, ‘There are lots.’ I said, ‘Fantastic, please, where? Please, because we want to invest.’

“‘Yes, there are lots,’ she said. ‘What do you mean by lots?’

“‘Many.’” Cue his take on the goldfish.


So it seems that speaking to high-level officials in the Government is no different to discussing with Brexiteers on an anonymous internet forum. Lots of slogans, no substance.
 
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:31 pm

UK: 'Peace, Prosperity and Friendship with all nations'

Also UK: burning lots of EU flags


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/01/ ... 17889.html



Interesting piece in The Spectator. Fascinating how the narrative has changed from kicking out immigrants to stop downward pressure on wages of UK citizens to kicking out immigrants to replace them with robots:

It’s for the sake of social cohesion that it also makes sense for Britain to devise its own migration policy. So far, the Prime Minister’s ‘global Britain’ strategy has sounded like little more than a soundbite. Now he has an opportunity to make it real. Too many businesses, for too long, have been using migrant labour instead of investing in automation. By some measures, Britain has one of the least automated economies in the developed world. Wages are low because we have too many people doing jobs that ought to be done by machines.


https://www.spectator.co.uk/2020/02/bre ... t-the-end/


Aesma wrote:
With that said, I'm not sure at all that the referendum would give independance a win, which is precisely why nobody is seriously considering it. When Brexit starts biting in a couple of years, we shall see.


That's my view also. Tory induced Brexit Chaos will decently sway Scotland much further in support of independence. In two years the polls will be much closer to 60-40 in favour of independence than 52-48. Ironically Boris is one of Nicola Sturgeon's greatest assets.

Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
We don’t want freedom of movement in the UK.

Speak for yourself.

Listen Scotland will not get an Independence vote during this Parliament.

Plus there is no assurance they’d vote for independence beyond on 2024.

But just to be sure, England will not let them vote on it in the first place, the way true democracy works!


Funny isn't it - the same brexiteers who expend so much energy being "oppressed" by the EU are only too happy to do the same to Scotland..... except that the UK doesn't have an article 50 escape mechanism - not a union of equals unlike the EU :spin:

ChrisKen wrote:
Don't worry, come brexit day (the real one, not the fake 'on paper only' January 31st one) you won't have it. As a UK national you wont be able to freely travel bewteen parts of the UK without checks.


Yet Boris keeps emphatically saying the contrary - which makes me wonder about EU negotiations. Surely there's a not too insignificant chance of an EFTA style deal with UK becoming a rule taker but with Boris declaring that the UK is completely unintwined with the blasted EU and all his supporters believing him? Unfortunately for the UK, EFTA members don't want them to join.

ChrisKen wrote:
I look forward to our Article 49 return, schengen, the Euro and full integration. The inevitable ironic end result of the brexiteer's fantasy.


The irony certainly isn't lost on me.

ltbewr wrote:
If Scotland were to become independent, would Hadrian's wall have to be rebuilt ?


Ive been advocating this for a while now. :bigthumbsup:

bennett123 wrote:
You do know that Hadrian’s Wall doesn’t follow the England/Scotland border?.


I too look forward to the conquest of Carlisle!

Dutchy wrote:
He actually said that he doesn't care if others won't have the ability, while he does. So he is advocating a position which others will have trouble with, but not him personally.


How very patriotic! :roll:

Arion640 wrote:
We’ve been the outsider for years with the opt out’s we’ve maintained.


You've been getting lots of opt-outs whilst still convincing yourself that you're being oppressed. :roll:

Klaus wrote:
What you're saying there is little more than being too lazy to learn even just one additional language, cutting yourself off from much of the world around you.
This I think is the biggest cultural difference between UK and EU. Everyone in the EU gets taught multiple languages from a young age and have been for a generations - at least being bilingual. Meanwhile in the UK most boomers only speak English. I wonder about our esteemed brexiteers in this thread. :D


noviorbis77 wrote:
Culturally, we’ve never fitted completely in. We have more in common with our American cousins. America is our strongest ally.


With allies like Trump's America, who needs enemies? :bouncy:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 6.html?amp

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/dona ... &r=US&IR=T

Kiwirob wrote:
In NZ depending on your age there’s either indifference towards the UK, people under 50, and for those over 50 resentment, when the UK joined the EEC and deserted us, stopped buying our products, those boomers remember. NZ will not be an easy touch for any potential free trade agreement.


:checkmark: Very much a sentiment among older folks that when UK comes begging, we shouldn't even give them crumbs. Not sure if that sentiment is reflected at a government level though.

Arion640 wrote:
When i lived there just after the vote in 2016 everyone i met was very supportive of brexit. They wanted to trade with us.


Well that's a lie.
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zkojq
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:42 pm

Liam Fox said that he would sign 40 trade deals 'the second after Brexit'. Well now it's the day after Brexit - does anybody have the numbers on how many were actually signed?


Also - from a friend: time to start the recession movement. What's a better name Breturn or Brejoin? Recession is now the resistance fighting the establishment.

DL717 wrote:
“It has been said that Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.”

Winston Churchill


Also Winston Churchill:

If Europe were once united in the sharing of its common inheritance there would be no limit to the happiness, prosperity and glory which its 300 million or 400 million people would enjoy. Yet it is from Europe that has sprung that series of frightful nationalistic quarrels, originated by the Teutonic nations in their rise to power, which we have seen in this 20th century and in our own lifetime wreck the peace and mar the prospects of all mankind.

What is this plight to which Europe has been reduced? Some of the smaller states have indeed made a good recovery, but over wide areas are a vast, quivering mass of tormented, hungry, careworn and bewildered human beings, who wait in the ruins of their cities and homes and scan the dark horizons for the approach of some new form of tyranny or terror. Among the victors there is a Babel of voices, among the vanquished the sullen silence of despair. That is all that Europeans, grouped in so many ancient states and nations, and that is all that the Germanic races have got by tearing each other to pieces and spreading havoc far and wide. Indeed, but for the fact that the great republic across the Atlantic realised that the ruin or enslavement of Europe would involve her own fate as well, and stretched out hands of succour and guidance, the Dark Ages would have returned in all their cruelty and squalor. They may still return.

Yet all the while there is a remedy which, if it were generally and spontaneously adopted by the great majority of people in many lands, would as by a miracle transform the whole scene and would in a few years make all Europe, or the greater part of it, as free and happy as Switzerland is today. What is this sovereign remedy? It is to recreate the European fabric, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, safety and freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living. The process is simple. All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing.

Much work has been done upon this task by the exertions of the Pan-European Union, which owes so much to the famous French patriot and statesman Aristide Briand. There is also that immense body which was brought into being amidst high hopes after the First World War — the League of Nations. The League did not fail because of its principles or conceptions. It failed because those principles were deserted by those states which brought it into being, because the governments of those states feared to face the facts and act while time remained. This disaster must not be repeated. There is, therefore, much knowledge and material with which to build and also bitter, dearly bought experience to spur.

There is no reason why a regional organisation of Europe should in any way conflict with the world organisation of the United Nations. On the contrary, I believe that the larger synthesis can only survive if it is founded upon broad natural groupings. There is already a natural grouping in the Western Hemisphere. We British have our own Commonwealth of Nations. These do not weaken, on the contrary they strengthen, the world organisation. They are in fact its main support. And why should there not be a European group which could give a sense of enlarged patriotism and common citizenship to the distracted peoples of this mighty continent? And why should it not take its rightful place with other great groupings and help to shape the honourable destiny of man? In order that this may be accomplished there must be an act of faith in which the millions of families speaking many languages must consciously take part.

We all know that the two World Wars through which we have passed arose out of the vain passion of Germany to play a dominating part in the world. In this last struggle crimes and massacres have been committed for which there is no parallel since the Mongol invasion of the 13th century, no equal at any time in human history. The guilty must be punished. Germany must be deprived of the power to rearm and make another aggressive war. But when all this has been done, as it will be done, as it is being done, there must be an end to retribution. There must be what Mr Gladstone many years ago called a “blessed act of oblivion”. We must all turn our backs upon the horrors of the past and look to the future. We cannot afford to drag forward across the years to come hatreds and revenges which have sprung from the injuries of the past. If Europe is to be saved from infinite misery, and indeed from final doom, there must be this act of faith in the European family, this act of oblivion against all crimes and follies of the past. Can the peoples of Europe rise to the heights of the soul and of the instinct and spirit of man? If they could, the wrongs and injuries which have been inflicted would have been washed away on all sides by the miseries which have been endured. Is there any need for further floods of agony? Is the only lesson of history to be that mankind is unteachable? Let there be justice, mercy and freedom. The peoples have only to will it and all will achieve their heart’s desire.

I am now going to say something that will astonish you. The first step in the re-creation of the European family must be a partnership between France and Germany. In this way only can France recover the moral and cultural leadership of Europe. There can be no revival of Europe without a spiritually great France and a spiritually great Germany. The structure of the United States of Europe will be such as to make the material strength of a single State less important. Small nations will count as much as large ones and gain their honour by a contribution to the common cause. The ancient States and principalities of Germany, freely joined for mutual convenience in a federal system, might take their individual places among the United States of Europe.

But I must give you warning, time may be short. At present there is a breathing space. The cannons have ceased firing. The fighting has stopped. But the dangers have not stopped. If we are to form a United States of Europe, or whatever name it may take, we must begin now. In these present days we dwell strangely and precariously under the shield, and I even say protection, of the atomic bomb. The atomic bomb is still only in the hands of a nation which, we know, will never use it except in the cause of right and freedom, but it may well be that in a few years this awful agency of destruction will be widespread and that the catastrophe following from its use by several warring nations will not only bring to an end all that we call civilisation but may possibly disintegrate the globe itself.

I now sum up the propositions which are before you. Our constant aim must be to build and fortify the United Nations Organisation. Under and within that world concept we must re-create the European family in a regional structure called, it may be, the United States of Europe, and the first practical step will be to form a Council of Europe. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join a union we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and who can. The salvation of the common people of every race and every land from war and servitude must be established on solid foundations, and must be created by the readiness of all men and women to die rather than to submit to tyranny. In this urgent work France and Germany must take the lead together. Great Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America — and, I trust, Soviet Russia, for then indeed all would be well — must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live. Therefore I say to you “Let Europe arise!”

Speech at the University of Zurich, September 19, 1946
https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/ ... of-europe/

Whether you like him or not (I don't), the truth is that Winston Churchill was a European Federalist.

flyguy89 wrote:
I wonder how feasible/realistic it would be for the UK to join the USMC (formerly NAFTA) trade agreement? I'm sure the US and Canada would be open


As if the US would allow entry without negotiating big concessions with agriculture and drug prices. :rotfl: :rotfl:

flyguy89 wrote:
Wow, the essence of the European project is really shining through there :sarcastic: So it's either join the galactic empire or perpetual subservience?



flyguy89 wrote:
The EU is probably one of the largest and least democratic governing institutions in the world. Yeah, you can say he's gotten to "participate" as a member of the European parliament, but the EU parliament itself is essentially powerless and toothless...so you have the veneer of democracy with nothing ultimately behind it.


What a load of contrite nonsense. The EU is very democratic. All members are treated equally, all members have the right to leave. Tell me esteemed friend, does the US Constitution allow for states to leave should they want to? The US being the pinnacle of democracy afterall. ;)

Grizzly410 wrote:
So.

Article 50 isn't active anymore. Isn't it about time to amend it ? :D
I'd say for efficiency reason it should be added something like : to be triggered, art 50 notification must come with an expressed politic declaration, a reasonable project for the future relationship structure.


I disagree with this though I can see where you're coming from. If countries want the freedom to turn leaving into a s#itshow then that's their right to do so. All the delays and indecision did much more damage to the UK than EU. If anything the uncertainty led to lots of jobs and economic activity being transferred from the leaving nation to the EU - not really a bad thing.

Klaus wrote:
Our door will remain open, and we'll never forget that the UK has many open-minded people who aren't beholden to propaganda lies.

:checkmark:

b4thefall wrote:
Don't forget about us here in N.Ireland and Scotland who voted to remain, but are getting dragged out because of the English and Welsh voters.


EU Commission building in Brussels last night.

Image
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:41 pm

zkojq wrote:
EU Commission building in Brussels last night.

Image


This is not the smart thing to do. The matter will pop-up when it comes.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:51 pm

zkojq wrote:
Liam Fox said that he would sign 40 trade deals 'the second after Brexit'. Well now it's the day after Brexit - does anybody have the numbers on how many were actually signed?


Also - from a friend: time to start the recession movement. What's a better name Breturn or Brejoin? Recession is now the resistance fighting the establishment.

DL717 wrote:
“It has been said that Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.”

Winston Churchill


Also Winston Churchill:

If Europe were once united in the sharing of its common inheritance there would be no limit to the happiness, prosperity and glory which its 300 million or 400 million people would enjoy. Yet it is from Europe that has sprung that series of frightful nationalistic quarrels, originated by the Teutonic nations in their rise to power, which we have seen in this 20th century and in our own lifetime wreck the peace and mar the prospects of all mankind.

What is this plight to which Europe has been reduced? Some of the smaller states have indeed made a good recovery, but over wide areas are a vast, quivering mass of tormented, hungry, careworn and bewildered human beings, who wait in the ruins of their cities and homes and scan the dark horizons for the approach of some new form of tyranny or terror. Among the victors there is a Babel of voices, among the vanquished the sullen silence of despair. That is all that Europeans, grouped in so many ancient states and nations, and that is all that the Germanic races have got by tearing each other to pieces and spreading havoc far and wide. Indeed, but for the fact that the great republic across the Atlantic realised that the ruin or enslavement of Europe would involve her own fate as well, and stretched out hands of succour and guidance, the Dark Ages would have returned in all their cruelty and squalor. They may still return.

Yet all the while there is a remedy which, if it were generally and spontaneously adopted by the great majority of people in many lands, would as by a miracle transform the whole scene and would in a few years make all Europe, or the greater part of it, as free and happy as Switzerland is today. What is this sovereign remedy? It is to recreate the European fabric, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, safety and freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living. The process is simple. All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing.

Much work has been done upon this task by the exertions of the Pan-European Union, which owes so much to the famous French patriot and statesman Aristide Briand. There is also that immense body which was brought into being amidst high hopes after the First World War — the League of Nations. The League did not fail because of its principles or conceptions. It failed because those principles were deserted by those states which brought it into being, because the governments of those states feared to face the facts and act while time remained. This disaster must not be repeated. There is, therefore, much knowledge and material with which to build and also bitter, dearly bought experience to spur.

There is no reason why a regional organisation of Europe should in any way conflict with the world organisation of the United Nations. On the contrary, I believe that the larger synthesis can only survive if it is founded upon broad natural groupings. There is already a natural grouping in the Western Hemisphere. We British have our own Commonwealth of Nations. These do not weaken, on the contrary they strengthen, the world organisation. They are in fact its main support. And why should there not be a European group which could give a sense of enlarged patriotism and common citizenship to the distracted peoples of this mighty continent? And why should it not take its rightful place with other great groupings and help to shape the honourable destiny of man? In order that this may be accomplished there must be an act of faith in which the millions of families speaking many languages must consciously take part.

We all know that the two World Wars through which we have passed arose out of the vain passion of Germany to play a dominating part in the world. In this last struggle crimes and massacres have been committed for which there is no parallel since the Mongol invasion of the 13th century, no equal at any time in human history. The guilty must be punished. Germany must be deprived of the power to rearm and make another aggressive war. But when all this has been done, as it will be done, as it is being done, there must be an end to retribution. There must be what Mr Gladstone many years ago called a “blessed act of oblivion”. We must all turn our backs upon the horrors of the past and look to the future. We cannot afford to drag forward across the years to come hatreds and revenges which have sprung from the injuries of the past. If Europe is to be saved from infinite misery, and indeed from final doom, there must be this act of faith in the European family, this act of oblivion against all crimes and follies of the past. Can the peoples of Europe rise to the heights of the soul and of the instinct and spirit of man? If they could, the wrongs and injuries which have been inflicted would have been washed away on all sides by the miseries which have been endured. Is there any need for further floods of agony? Is the only lesson of history to be that mankind is unteachable? Let there be justice, mercy and freedom. The peoples have only to will it and all will achieve their heart’s desire.

I am now going to say something that will astonish you. The first step in the re-creation of the European family must be a partnership between France and Germany. In this way only can France recover the moral and cultural leadership of Europe. There can be no revival of Europe without a spiritually great France and a spiritually great Germany. The structure of the United States of Europe will be such as to make the material strength of a single State less important. Small nations will count as much as large ones and gain their honour by a contribution to the common cause. The ancient States and principalities of Germany, freely joined for mutual convenience in a federal system, might take their individual places among the United States of Europe.

But I must give you warning, time may be short. At present there is a breathing space. The cannons have ceased firing. The fighting has stopped. But the dangers have not stopped. If we are to form a United States of Europe, or whatever name it may take, we must begin now. In these present days we dwell strangely and precariously under the shield, and I even say protection, of the atomic bomb. The atomic bomb is still only in the hands of a nation which, we know, will never use it except in the cause of right and freedom, but it may well be that in a few years this awful agency of destruction will be widespread and that the catastrophe following from its use by several warring nations will not only bring to an end all that we call civilisation but may possibly disintegrate the globe itself.

I now sum up the propositions which are before you. Our constant aim must be to build and fortify the United Nations Organisation. Under and within that world concept we must re-create the European family in a regional structure called, it may be, the United States of Europe, and the first practical step will be to form a Council of Europe. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join a union we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and who can. The salvation of the common people of every race and every land from war and servitude must be established on solid foundations, and must be created by the readiness of all men and women to die rather than to submit to tyranny. In this urgent work France and Germany must take the lead together. Great Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America — and, I trust, Soviet Russia, for then indeed all would be well — must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live. Therefore I say to you “Let Europe arise!”

Speech at the University of Zurich, September 19, 1946
https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/ ... of-europe/

Whether you like him or not (I don't), the truth is that Winston Churchill was a European Federalist.

flyguy89 wrote:
I wonder how feasible/realistic it would be for the UK to join the USMC (formerly NAFTA) trade agreement? I'm sure the US and Canada would be open


As if the US would allow entry without negotiating big concessions with agriculture and drug prices. :rotfl: :rotfl:

flyguy89 wrote:
Wow, the essence of the European project is really shining through there :sarcastic: So it's either join the galactic empire or perpetual subservience?



flyguy89 wrote:
The EU is probably one of the largest and least democratic governing institutions in the world. Yeah, you can say he's gotten to "participate" as a member of the European parliament, but the EU parliament itself is essentially powerless and toothless...so you have the veneer of democracy with nothing ultimately behind it.


What a load of contrite nonsense. The EU is very democratic. All members are treated equally, all members have the right to leave. Tell me esteemed friend, does the US Constitution allow for states to leave should they want to? The US being the pinnacle of democracy afterall. ;)

Grizzly410 wrote:
So.

Article 50 isn't active anymore. Isn't it about time to amend it ? :D
I'd say for efficiency reason it should be added something like : to be triggered, art 50 notification must come with an expressed politic declaration, a reasonable project for the future relationship structure.


I disagree with this though I can see where you're coming from. If countries want the freedom to turn leaving into a s#itshow then that's their right to do so. All the delays and indecision did much more damage to the UK than EU. If anything the uncertainty led to lots of jobs and economic activity being transferred from the leaving nation to the EU - not really a bad thing.

Klaus wrote:
Our door will remain open, and we'll never forget that the UK has many open-minded people who aren't beholden to propaganda lies.

:checkmark:

b4thefall wrote:
Don't forget about us here in N.Ireland and Scotland who voted to remain, but are getting dragged out because of the English and Welsh voters.


EU Commission building in Brussels last night.

Image


Waiting for south island independence day 8-) the northern welfare state has failed them.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4257
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:57 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
The EU is probably one of the largest and least democratic governing institutions in the world. Yeah, you can say he's gotten to "participate" as a member of the European parliament, but the EU parliament itself is essentially powerless and toothless...so you have the veneer of democracy with nothing ultimately behind it.


It is no less democratic than the UK parliament and government:
The commission is decided by the democratically elected national leaders, the parliament is democratically elected by all the citizens directly. This is no different from how it works in most European countries. You didn't vote for Boris Johnson to become PM of the UK, you voted for a number of MPs who in turn decided who should be PM.

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Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos