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noviorbis77
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:10 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scottish could move to Amsterdam or anywhere within the EU for that matter if they wished, so what would be different if Scotland would rejoin? So I do not get your line you are taking here. However, I do concur with the EU being more critical of new entrants, Scotland was part of the family, so they could re-enter if they wish, provided they obey all the rules of course, no special status, but that goes without saying.


Not much would be different, but freedom of movement for the Scottish would undo the advantage of the UK leaving the EU.




EU is also about solidarity, Helping area's to get to a better standard of living. Which in turn helps the richer area's as well because it is a better market to do business in.


Like Greece?
 
Arion640
Posts: 3320
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:10 pm

Klaus wrote:
And with the way back now cut off, brexiters are switching to full 1930s mode, consistent with their rethoric all along:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ak-english
Image
No surprise there, but at least some of us still know where this kind of thing tends to end up...!


Apparently one clown represents 17 million people.

I condemn this. It could of even been a remaniac trying to frame a brexiteer.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:12 pm

A101 wrote:
Racism is not confined to the UK, that incident was report to the police as a hate crime and is being investigated accordingly as such.

This was specifically and explicitly a Brexit-themed assault on people living in that block.

That the Brexit campaign always had a racist component has always come with the territory: Once you're steeping yourself in xenophobia and propaganda lies that stink doesn't really come out again with just a bit of superficial scrubbing.

It would be helpful if you produce all the facts of the matter not just selective reporting

I have provided the link to the full story.

to brand all pro leave supporters as racist. Yes and we are well awere of history in which I imagine you are referring too and the master race.

I can see that it doesn't feel great to be seen in bed with that kind of people, but that's been the choice to make all along and keeping at it without more than just a shrug in full view of where things were going makes its own statement.

And now this is the official position of the United Kingdom (well, actually just England, but the other regions are getting dragged along anyway).
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:13 pm

Klaus wrote:
And with the way back now cut off, brexiters are switching to full 1930s mode, consistent with their rethoric all along:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ak-english
Image
No surprise there, but at least some of us still know where this kind of thing tends to end up...!


Can you provide evidence please that a Brexit supporter printed that letter?
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:15 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
EU is also about solidarity, Helping area's to get to a better standard of living. Which in turn helps the richer area's as well because it is a better market to do business in.


Like Greece?

Yes, like Greece.

The default would have been Greece tumbling into bankruptcy and into a much harsher situation as a consequence of its reckless fiscal policies in decades past.

Besides, crocodile tears from the UK – who didn't lift a finger helping Greece! – are completely misplaced.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:16 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Can you provide evidence please that a Brexit supporter printed that letter?

Read it!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:16 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
EU is also about solidarity, Helping area's to get to a better standard of living. Which in turn helps the richer area's as well because it is a better market to do business in.


Like Greece?

Yes, like Greece.

The default would have been Greece tumbling into bankruptcy and into a much harsher situation as a consequence of its reckless fiscal policies in decades past.

Besides, crocodile tears from the UK – who didn't lift a finger helping Greece! – are completely misplaced.


How was it our problem?
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:18 pm

Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Can you provide evidence please that a Brexit supporter printed that letter?

Read it!


I did read it.

Again you provide evidence please that a Brexit supporter wrote this?

Or are you assuming this?
 
Jetty
Posts: 1411
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:24 pm

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Racism is not confined to the UK, that incident was report to the police as a hate crime and is being investigated accordingly as such.

This was specifically and explicitly a Brexit-themed assault on people living in that block.

What makes that an 'assault'? It's just a written opinion, albeit a bit provocative.

In a society it's important people can talk with eachother. I like the EU but at the same time I think immigrants should learn the local language. Does that make me a racist Remainer now?
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:27 pm

Jetty wrote:
Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Racism is not confined to the UK, that incident was report to the police as a hate crime and is being investigated accordingly as such.

This was specifically and explicitly a Brexit-themed assault on people living in that block.

What makes that an 'assault'? It's just a written opinion, albeit a bit provocative.

In a society it's important people can talk with eachother. I like the EU but at the same time I think immigrants should learn the local language. Does that make me a racist Remainer now?


It could easily been a remainer writing that to stir things up.

A look what I found message. Look at Brexit has caused.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:31 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
How was it our problem?

Exactly to the extent that you could now be shedding legitimate tears – or not.

Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Can you provide evidence please that a Brexit supporter printed that letter?

Read it!


I did read it.

Again you provide evidence please that a Brexit supporter wrote this?

Or are you assuming this?

It quacks like a duck.
It walks like a duck.
It looks like a duck.
It even explicitly says it's a duck.

So yes, the obvious assumption is that it is in fact a duck.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:32 pm

Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
How was it our problem?

Exactly to the extent that you could now be shedding legitimate tears – or not.

Klaus wrote:
Read it!


I did read it.

Again you provide evidence please that a Brexit supporter wrote this?

Or are you assuming this?

It quacks like a duck.
It walks like a duck.
It looks like a duck.
It even explicitly says it's a duck.

So yes, the obvious assumption is that it is in fact a duck.


So you have no evidence.

One article and you have reached a conclusion.

Ok

:)
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:37 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
It could easily been a remainer writing that to stir things up.

I have yet to see any remainer thinking even just remotely the way you do.

A look what I found message. Look at Brexit has caused.

It is an explicit threat, effectively an eviction notice, just not from the landlord but intended to be understood to the same effect, making people feeling intimidated and threatened to the extent that they'd move out eventually.

Exactly that same kind of intimidation has been used by the nazis against jews and other people they had deemed unworthy of staying in Germany back then, even before they ramped up to physical threats and outright violence.

No remotely upstanding and decent person would consider posting anything like that where people could see this kind of thing without actually intending intimidation and distress to other people.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:40 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
So you have no evidence.

One article and you have reached a conclusion.

Ok

:)

The evidence is in the photo and in the report to the police who are now pursuing it.

And your post is evidence that this kind of thing seems to be okay with you and you're only bothered by being seen next to it, just like the authors of that pamphlet.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4236
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:49 pm

Jetty wrote:
Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Racism is not confined to the UK, that incident was report to the police as a hate crime and is being investigated accordingly as such.

This was specifically and explicitly a Brexit-themed assault on people living in that block.

What makes that an 'assault'? It's just a written opinion, albeit a bit provocative.

In a society it's important people can talk with eachother. I like the EU but at the same time I think immigrants should learn the local language. Does that make me a racist Remainer now?


What does that have to do with asking people to speak English among themselves and in their own home? If I'm in England and I'm having a private conversation with friends or family I'm going to have it in the language of my choice thank you very much.

What would you say if we started putting that kind of signs in UK communities in Portugal, Spain, France, etc.?
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:54 pm

Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
It could easily been a remainer writing that to stir things up.

I have yet to see any remainer thinking even just remotely the way you do.

A look what I found message. Look at Brexit has caused.

It is an explicit threat, effectively an eviction notice, just not from the landlord but intended to be understood to the same effect, making people feeling intimidated and threatened to the extent that they'd move out eventually.

Exactly that same kind of intimidation has been used by the nazis against jews and other people they had deemed unworthy of staying in Germany back then, even before they ramped up to physical threats and outright violence.

No remotely upstanding and decent person would consider posting anything like that where people could see this kind of thing without actually intending intimidation and distress to other people.


You don’t even live in the UK :)

You have no genuine idea of what people think other than Twitter and the tabloid media.

Again you make assumptions.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:08 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
You don’t even live in the UK :)

Common decency isn't fundamentally different across different countries.
Nor is the opposite of it.

You have no genuine idea of what people think other than Twitter and the tabloid media.

I take an actual interest in what's going on and I talk to people. Over time that does form an impression, even while I'm always aware that it is provisional and needs to be differentiated individually.

Again you make assumptions.

Yes, based on actual evidence. The way anything works in this world, or at least should be working.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2667
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:19 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Can you provide evidence please that a Brexit supporter printed that letter?

Read it!


I did read it.

Again you provide evidence please that a Brexit supporter wrote this?

Or are you assuming this?


Are a lot of remainers going around using describing anything to do with Brexit as “happy”? Last I heard, they even managed to work up a temper about a fairly innocuous Brexit 50p coin.

Anyway, it reads like something Katie Hopkins or the 4th Viscount St David’s or Jo Marney or Paul Golding or Jayda Fransen or any number of similar Brexit-supporting “nationalist” types would say (and probably have said).

No, not saying all Brexiteers are racist or xenophobic, but it’s hardly a secret that most (all?) racists and xenophobes inevitably support Brexit.

But ok, let’s start accusing remainders of false flags, and ignore the fact that many of the country’s most prominent racists are staunch Brexit supporters. They’re your political bedfellows now. Enjoy.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:22 pm

Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
You don’t even live in the UK :)

Common decency isn't fundamentally different across different countries.
Nor is the opposite of it.

You have no genuine idea of what people think other than Twitter and the tabloid media.

I take an actual interest in what's going on and I talk to people. Over time that does form an impression, even while I'm always aware that it is provisional and needs to be differentiated individually.

Again you make assumptions.

Yes, based on actual evidence. The way anything works in this world, or at least should be working.



What evidence?

There is no evidence that a racist, halfwitted Brexit supporter produced this letter. There is every chance a remainer could have done to stir things up. Can you not understand this concept????
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2667
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:44 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
You don’t even live in the UK :)

Common decency isn't fundamentally different across different countries.
Nor is the opposite of it.

You have no genuine idea of what people think other than Twitter and the tabloid media.

I take an actual interest in what's going on and I talk to people. Over time that does form an impression, even while I'm always aware that it is provisional and needs to be differentiated individually.

Again you make assumptions.

Yes, based on actual evidence. The way anything works in this world, or at least should be working.



What evidence?

There is no evidence that a racist, halfwitted Brexit supporter produced this letter. There is every chance a remainer could have done to stir things up. Can you not understand this concept????


Possible? Sure. Probable? No.

The key piece here is that you have no evidence that it was not a Brexit supporter.

The more damning bit is that prominent Brexit supporters - the Viscount, Katie Hopkins, Jayda Fransen etc - all back the sentiment in this note. Regardless of who produced it, it’s merely a physical manifestation of views we all know are popular among a certain segment of Brexit-supporters. Good luck putting them back in their box.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:50 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
What evidence?

The actual pamphlet combined with the whole flood of like-minded pamphlets and utterances all from the Brexit camp.

Is it incontrovertible proof? Not yet.
Is it obviously plausible and looking extremely unlikely that it's something else? Yes, it is.

There is no evidence that a racist, halfwitted Brexit supporter produced this letter. There is every chance a remainer could have done to stir things up. Can you not understand this concept????

That's about as plausibe as 9/11 "really just" being an "israeli conspiracy" just "to make muslims look bad", so you're apparently choosing the proponents of that kooky theory as your own standard of credibility.

Well, ok.
It's your own credibility's funeral.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3320
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:39 pm

Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
What evidence?

The actual pamphlet combined with the whole flood of like-minded pamphlets and utterances all from the Brexit camp.

Is it incontrovertible proof? Not yet.
Is it obviously plausible and looking extremely unlikely that it's something else? Yes, it is.

There is no evidence that a racist, halfwitted Brexit supporter produced this letter. There is every chance a remainer could have done to stir things up. Can you not understand this concept????

That's about as plausibe as 9/11 "really just" being an "israeli conspiracy" just "to make muslims look bad", so you're apparently choosing the proponents of that kooky theory as your own standard of credibility.

Well, ok.
It's your own credibility's funeral.


Comparing 9/11 to a leaflet on a door in a block of apartments is laughable.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:46 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Comparing 9/11 to a leaflet on a door in a block of apartments is laughable.

I'm comparing your contortions to the contortions of other people trying to throw smoke bombs in the vain hope of not having to confront the facts that way, but it's not working in either case.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 12974
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:57 pm

A101 wrote:
Racism is not confined to the UK, that incident was report to the police as a hate crime and is being investigated accordingly as such. It would be helpful if you produce all the facts of the matter not just selective reporting to brand all pro leave supporters as racist. Yes and we are well awere of history in which I imagine you are referring too and the master race.


No, racism is not confined to the UK, but nationalism is definitely part of the Brexit narrative. So not surprised at all that some wacko put this sign up.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2667
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:03 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
What evidence?

The actual pamphlet combined with the whole flood of like-minded pamphlets and utterances all from the Brexit camp.

Is it incontrovertible proof? Not yet.
Is it obviously plausible and looking extremely unlikely that it's something else? Yes, it is.

There is no evidence that a racist, halfwitted Brexit supporter produced this letter. There is every chance a remainer could have done to stir things up. Can you not understand this concept????

That's about as plausibe as 9/11 "really just" being an "israeli conspiracy" just "to make muslims look bad", so you're apparently choosing the proponents of that kooky theory as your own standard of credibility.

Well, ok.
It's your own credibility's funeral.


Comparing 9/11 to a leaflet on a door in a block of apartments is laughable.


Not unlike comparing the EU to the Nazis and USSR, which your type are wont to do.

Glass houses etc.
 
A101
Posts: 2938
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:03 pm

Good grief, the pro-remain supporters just cannot accept and get over that the UK has left the EU and are still fighting like they are in full blown campaign mode to overturn the result. :hissyfit:

Yes some dickhead has put up a sign, no one can say if it was a pro-remain or leave faction or even if said person even voted in the referenda. Build a bridge get over it, there’s more important things to happen yet . :banghead:
 
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Dutchy
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:12 pm

A101 wrote:
Good grief, the pro-remain supporters just cannot accept and get over that the UK has left the EU and are still fighting like they are in full blown campaign mode to overturn the result. :hissyfit:

Yes some dickhead has put up a sign, no one can say if it was a pro-remain or leave faction or even if said person even voted in the referenda. Build a bridge get over it, there’s more important things to happen yet . :banghead:


Still only holding a mirror.

You are out, fine. Next, the EU trade agreement. And the UK still has to heal a lot of internal wounds and we will see what will happen there.
 
A101
Posts: 2938
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:20 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Good grief, the pro-remain supporters just cannot accept and get over that the UK has left the EU and are still fighting like they are in full blown campaign mode to overturn the result. :hissyfit:

Yes some dickhead has put up a sign, no one can say if it was a pro-remain or leave faction or even if said person even voted in the referenda. Build a bridge get over it, there’s more important things to happen yet . :banghead:


Still only holding a mirror.

You are out, fine. Next, the EU trade agreement. And the UK still has to heal a lot of internal wounds and we will see what will happen there.


Seems you lot are determined not to let the UK move on and want the wound to fester
 
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Grizzly410
Posts: 569
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 8:38 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:21 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Good grief, the pro-remain supporters just cannot accept and get over that the UK has left the EU and are still fighting like they are in full blown campaign mode to overturn the result. :hissyfit:

Yes some dickhead has put up a sign, no one can say if it was a pro-remain or leave faction or even if said person even voted in the referenda. Build a bridge get over it, there’s more important things to happen yet . :banghead:


Still only holding a mirror.

You are out, fine. Next, the EU trade agreement. And the UK still has to heal a lot of internal wounds and we will see what will happen there.


Wrong! Easiest trade in history they said!

And if it isn't, not a problem, they don't want a deal!
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 12974
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:46 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Good grief, the pro-remain supporters just cannot accept and get over that the UK has left the EU and are still fighting like they are in full blown campaign mode to overturn the result. :hissyfit:

Yes some dickhead has put up a sign, no one can say if it was a pro-remain or leave faction or even if said person even voted in the referenda. Build a bridge get over it, there’s more important things to happen yet . :banghead:


Still only holding a mirror.

You are out, fine. Next, the EU trade agreement. And the UK still has to heal a lot of internal wounds and we will see what will happen there.


Seems you lot are determined not to let the UK move on and want the wound to fester


you shot yourself in the foot hoping the unicorns would turn up. You deal with the fallout.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2667
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:56 pm

A101 wrote:
Good grief, the pro-remain supporters just cannot accept and get over that the UK has left the EU and are still fighting like they are in full blown campaign mode to overturn the result. :hissyfit:

Yes some dickhead has put up a sign, no one can say if it was a pro-remain or leave faction or even if said person even voted in the referenda. Build a bridge get over it, there’s more important things to happen yet . :banghead:


Lol. Not going to dispute that Brexit is happening (quite relieved it’s over and done with, actually), but if what you say about remainers is true, it is equally true that the Brexit vote let the racist/xenophobic genie out of the bottle and gave it political legitimacy.

Farage was literally on the Daily Telegraph Choppers podcast on Brexit night saying that the Brexit campaign succeeded mostly because of anger at immigration. And then there’s the indisputable fact that some of the UKs most prominent racists - Katie Hopkins, Rhodri Phillips, Paul Golding, Jayda Frankenstein - are all heavily pro-Brexit. They see Brexit as their victory - a validation of their views - as much as you see it as yours.

If you really want to build bridges, you need to address that reality. Virtually every poll of ethnic minorities/BAMEs over the past couple of years has indicated a rise in racist behaviour. Even a member of your own Royal Family has quit the firm a year after calling out “racist undertones” directed at his mixed race wife. It’s even made an unwelcome comeback in football stadiums.

We get that it doesn’t fit with your Brexit narrative, so you have to believe it isn’t true. Hate to break it to you, but there’s no smoke without fire. Brexit may have happened, but until the newly validated racist/xenophobic crowd are put back in their box, proclaiming that you’re the “least racist country” in Europe isn’t going to address concerns about this behaviour.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3320
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:09 pm

Klaus wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Comparing 9/11 to a leaflet on a door in a block of apartments is laughable.

I'm comparing your contortions to the contortions of other people trying to throw smoke bombs in the vain hope of not having to confront the facts that way, but it's not working in either case.


No need to turn this round on me. Whatever i said is irrelevant to your argument.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3320
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:12 pm

Klaus wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
They probably could, except they’d have to except the Euro and Schengen which they won’t be able too without a hard border with England.

The Euro has nothing to do with a hard border. The Republic of Ireland has had it all along and there still wasn't a hard border with Northern Ireland and its British Pound. And there are still a few other EU member countries without the Euro and they don't have hard borders either.

The border issue has to do with rule and regulation conformity or divergence, and England will have its hands full with its own borders in that respect.

The irish/uk border will only be able to work as long as Ireland stay out of Schengen.

Boris has ditched Theresa May's red lines and erected a border across the Irish Sea, so that's already done and the intra-irish border is less of a problem any more.

You will also annoy Spain letting Scotland in as it will increase independence support for Catalonia.

Spain continues to have a veto against accession of an independent Catalonia. The UK has just thrown away its own veto, so the path is now clear for an independent Scotland's accession to start.


@ Point 1 - i was referring to Schengen with regards to border sorry.

@ Point 2 - wrong because the CTA exists.

@ Point 3 - and spain will veto Scotland joining too.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3320
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:28 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Good grief, the pro-remain supporters just cannot accept and get over that the UK has left the EU and are still fighting like they are in full blown campaign mode to overturn the result. :hissyfit:

Yes some dickhead has put up a sign, no one can say if it was a pro-remain or leave faction or even if said person even voted in the referenda. Build a bridge get over it, there’s more important things to happen yet . :banghead:


Lol. Not going to dispute that Brexit is happening (quite relieved it’s over and done with, actually), but if what you say about remainers is true, it is equally true that the Brexit vote let the racist/xenophobic genie out of the bottle and gave it political legitimacy.

Farage was literally on the Daily Telegraph Choppers podcast on Brexit night saying that the Brexit campaign succeeded mostly because of anger at immigration. And then there’s the indisputable fact that some of the UKs most prominent racists - Katie Hopkins, Rhodri Phillips, Paul Golding, Jayda Frankenstein - are all heavily pro-Brexit. They see Brexit as their victory - a validation of their views - as much as you see it as yours.

If you really want to build bridges, you need to address that reality. Virtually every poll of ethnic minorities/BAMEs over the past couple of years has indicated a rise in racist behaviour. Even a member of your own Royal Family has quit the firm a year after calling out “racist undertones” directed at his mixed race wife. It’s even made an unwelcome comeback in football stadiums.

We get that it doesn’t fit with your Brexit narrative, so you have to believe it isn’t true. Hate to break it to you, but there’s no smoke without fire. Brexit may have happened, but until the newly validated racist/xenophobic crowd are put back in their box, proclaiming that you’re the “least racist country” in Europe isn’t going to address concerns about this behaviour.


You can’t tar all the brexiteers with the same brush though. We aren’t all racists as much as some would like us to be.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:36 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Good grief, the pro-remain supporters just cannot accept and get over that the UK has left the EU and are still fighting like they are in full blown campaign mode to overturn the result. :hissyfit:

Yes some dickhead has put up a sign, no one can say if it was a pro-remain or leave faction or even if said person even voted in the referenda. Build a bridge get over it, there’s more important things to happen yet . :banghead:


And the UK still has to heal a lot of internal wounds and we will see what will happen there.


Are you that bitter, you want to see the UK fail?

Wow.
 
A101
Posts: 2938
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:55 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Good grief, the pro-remain supporters just cannot accept and get over that the UK has left the EU and are still fighting like they are in full blown campaign mode to overturn the result. :hissyfit:

Yes some dickhead has put up a sign, no one can say if it was a pro-remain or leave faction or even if said person even voted in the referenda. Build a bridge get over it, there’s more important things to happen yet . :banghead:


Lol. Not going to dispute that Brexit is happening (quite relieved it’s over and done with, actually), but if what you say about remainers is true, it is equally true that the Brexit vote let the racist/xenophobic genie out of the bottle and gave it political legitimacy.

Farage was literally on the Daily Telegraph Choppers podcast on Brexit night saying that the Brexit campaign succeeded mostly because of anger at immigration. And then there’s the indisputable fact that some of the UKs most prominent racists - Katie Hopkins, Rhodri Phillips, Paul Golding, Jayda Frankenstein - are all heavily pro-Brexit. They see Brexit as their victory - a validation of their views - as much as you see it as yours.

If you really want to build bridges, you need to address that reality. Virtually every poll of ethnic minorities/BAMEs over the past couple of years has indicated a rise in racist behaviour. Even a member of your own Royal Family has quit the firm a year after calling out “racist undertones” directed at his mixed race wife. It’s even made an unwelcome comeback in football stadiums.

We get that it doesn’t fit with your Brexit narrative, so you have to believe it isn’t true. Hate to break it to you, but there’s no smoke without fire. Brexit may have happened, but until the newly validated racist/xenophobic crowd are put back in their box, proclaiming that you’re the “least racist country” in Europe isn’t going to address concerns about this behaviour.


I’m not denying that immigration was just one factor in the campaign, it just does not mean you tar every person with the same brush. I also acknowledge that there are a number of pro-remain who feel just as deeply about controlling immigration into the UK, as a couple of close friends of mine are anti immigration but also happen to voted remain. To the majority of people who voted in the referenda there was not just one thing that persuaded how they voted but many things.

My narrative is mine and mine alone just like my vote at the ballot box was mine and mine alone. I listen and read and make myself as informed as I possibly can prior to voting. But I just like to laugh at those on this forum who seem to think that whatever was said by the campaign is gospel for everyone who vote to leave.
 
A101
Posts: 2938
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:58 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Still only holding a mirror.

You are out, fine. Next, the EU trade agreement. And the UK still has to heal a lot of internal wounds and we will see what will happen there.


Seems you lot are determined not to let the UK move on and want the wound to fester


you shot yourself in the foot hoping the unicorns would turn up. You deal with the fallout.



Both feet were still there when I put my boots on this morning, and the sky is still blue and hasn’t fallen down.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2667
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:58 pm

Arion640 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Good grief, the pro-remain supporters just cannot accept and get over that the UK has left the EU and are still fighting like they are in full blown campaign mode to overturn the result. :hissyfit:

Yes some dickhead has put up a sign, no one can say if it was a pro-remain or leave faction or even if said person even voted in the referenda. Build a bridge get over it, there’s more important things to happen yet . :banghead:


Lol. Not going to dispute that Brexit is happening (quite relieved it’s over and done with, actually), but if what you say about remainers is true, it is equally true that the Brexit vote let the racist/xenophobic genie out of the bottle and gave it political legitimacy.

Farage was literally on the Daily Telegraph Choppers podcast on Brexit night saying that the Brexit campaign succeeded mostly because of anger at immigration. And then there’s the indisputable fact that some of the UKs most prominent racists - Katie Hopkins, Rhodri Phillips, Paul Golding, Jayda Frankenstein - are all heavily pro-Brexit. They see Brexit as their victory - a validation of their views - as much as you see it as yours.

If you really want to build bridges, you need to address that reality. Virtually every poll of ethnic minorities/BAMEs over the past couple of years has indicated a rise in racist behaviour. Even a member of your own Royal Family has quit the firm a year after calling out “racist undertones” directed at his mixed race wife. It’s even made an unwelcome comeback in football stadiums.

We get that it doesn’t fit with your Brexit narrative, so you have to believe it isn’t true. Hate to break it to you, but there’s no smoke without fire. Brexit may have happened, but until the newly validated racist/xenophobic crowd are put back in their box, proclaiming that you’re the “least racist country” in Europe isn’t going to address concerns about this behaviour.


You can’t tar all the brexiteers with the same brush though. We aren’t all racists as much as some would like us to be.


I very explicitly said I didn’t think all Brexiteers are racist. That said, there’s no point pretending that racists are not predominantly pro-Brexit. Or that the Brexit campaign didn’t employ anti-immigrant themes, racist tropes, and dog whistles. They’ve been legitimized - after all, they can point out that you were happy to count their votes alongside your own when it helped you get what you want.

It’s therefore no surprise then that there’s been an uptick in racist sentiment. What is surprising is the obtuse denial that it’s a resurgent problem. It’s happening right here - at least one poster finds it easier to accuse remainers of false flag incidents than acknowledge that Brexit let the racist genie out of the bottle. Might as well give racists a carte blanche and blame the remainers.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4236
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:11 pm

Arion640 wrote:

@ Point 3 - and spain will veto Scotland joining too.


Nope. Plenty of politicians on record saying they won't mind as long as it's done legally.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2667
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:12 pm

A101 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Good grief, the pro-remain supporters just cannot accept and get over that the UK has left the EU and are still fighting like they are in full blown campaign mode to overturn the result. :hissyfit:

Yes some dickhead has put up a sign, no one can say if it was a pro-remain or leave faction or even if said person even voted in the referenda. Build a bridge get over it, there’s more important things to happen yet . :banghead:


Lol. Not going to dispute that Brexit is happening (quite relieved it’s over and done with, actually), but if what you say about remainers is true, it is equally true that the Brexit vote let the racist/xenophobic genie out of the bottle and gave it political legitimacy.

Farage was literally on the Daily Telegraph Choppers podcast on Brexit night saying that the Brexit campaign succeeded mostly because of anger at immigration. And then there’s the indisputable fact that some of the UKs most prominent racists - Katie Hopkins, Rhodri Phillips, Paul Golding, Jayda Frankenstein - are all heavily pro-Brexit. They see Brexit as their victory - a validation of their views - as much as you see it as yours.

If you really want to build bridges, you need to address that reality. Virtually every poll of ethnic minorities/BAMEs over the past couple of years has indicated a rise in racist behaviour. Even a member of your own Royal Family has quit the firm a year after calling out “racist undertones” directed at his mixed race wife. It’s even made an unwelcome comeback in football stadiums.

We get that it doesn’t fit with your Brexit narrative, so you have to believe it isn’t true. Hate to break it to you, but there’s no smoke without fire. Brexit may have happened, but until the newly validated racist/xenophobic crowd are put back in their box, proclaiming that you’re the “least racist country” in Europe isn’t going to address concerns about this behaviour.


I’m not denying that immigration was just one factor in the campaign, it just does not mean you tar every person with the same brush. I also acknowledge that there are a number of pro-remain who feel just as deeply about controlling immigration into the UK, as a couple of close friends of mine are anti immigration but also happen to voted remain. To the majority of people who voted in the referenda there was not just one thing that persuaded how they voted but many things.

My narrative is mine and mine alone just like my vote at the ballot box was mine and mine alone. I listen and read and make myself as informed as I possibly can prior to voting. But I just like to laugh at those on this forum who seem to think that whatever was said by the campaign is gospel for everyone who vote to leave.


I’m not tarring anyone with the same brush. Just pointing out that this racism/xenophobia issue is alive and kicking because some Brexit voters have a different version of post-Brexit Britain to you, and as part of the “winning” side, with all the validation and legitimacy that brings, they aren’t going to go away quietly.

They’re your opponents now. Not remainers. Best take them on, than try to shift blame to remainers.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3320
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:22 pm

JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

@ Point 3 - and spain will veto Scotland joining too.


Nope. Plenty of politicians on record saying they won't mind as long as it's done legally.


Okay, well it’s up to them...Catalan independence WILL follow, and flanders will be next.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4236
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:29 pm

Arion640 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

@ Point 3 - and spain will veto Scotland joining too.


Nope. Plenty of politicians on record saying they won't mind as long as it's done legally.


Okay, well it’s up to them...Catalan independence WILL follow, and flanders will be next.


Catalan independentists are very much pro-EU, and Spain holds a veto there so I wouldn't hold my breath.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:35 pm

Arion640 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

@ Point 3 - and spain will veto Scotland joining too.


Nope. Plenty of politicians on record saying they won't mind as long as it's done legally.


Okay, well it’s up to them...Catalan independence WILL follow, and flanders will be next.

Nope. Both Spain and Belgium are full EU members with vetoes against any potential accession of former provinces and the EU as a whole has an interest in its own integrity. So neither Catalonia nor Flanders have any realistic perspective to secede and then rejoin the EU, significantly disincentivizing any such attempt.

On the other hand, the UK has chosen to throw its EU membership and its veto away, so apart from the usual failed-state-at-our-doorstep reservations the EU doesn't care much any more whether the UK will now disintegrate or not, and Scotland is welcome if it can win its independence correctly. Any EU-related disincentives to Scotland have just vanished two days ago.

Yeah, it's quite a bit colder on the outside.
Last edited by Klaus on Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3320
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:35 pm

JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Nope. Plenty of politicians on record saying they won't mind as long as it's done legally.


Okay, well it’s up to them...Catalan independence WILL follow, and flanders will be next.


Catalan independentists are very much pro-EU, and Spain holds a veto there so I wouldn't hold my breath.


They will have no choice if Scotland go independent and join the EU. The spanish government will have huge pressure on them, i’m shocked they’ve managed to hold on to Catalonia until now to be honest. I feel the independence movement there is larger than Scotland.
 
bennett123
Posts: 11127
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:35 pm

The key word is ‘Legally’.

Does NOT mean Spain has conceded Catalan independence.
 
A101
Posts: 2938
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:35 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Lol. Not going to dispute that Brexit is happening (quite relieved it’s over and done with, actually), but if what you say about remainers is true, it is equally true that the Brexit vote let the racist/xenophobic genie out of the bottle and gave it political legitimacy.

Farage was literally on the Daily Telegraph Choppers podcast on Brexit night saying that the Brexit campaign succeeded mostly because of anger at immigration. And then there’s the indisputable fact that some of the UKs most prominent racists - Katie Hopkins, Rhodri Phillips, Paul Golding, Jayda Frankenstein - are all heavily pro-Brexit. They see Brexit as their victory - a validation of their views - as much as you see it as yours.

If you really want to build bridges, you need to address that reality. Virtually every poll of ethnic minorities/BAMEs over the past couple of years has indicated a rise in racist behaviour. Even a member of your own Royal Family has quit the firm a year after calling out “racist undertones” directed at his mixed race wife. It’s even made an unwelcome comeback in football stadiums.

We get that it doesn’t fit with your Brexit narrative, so you have to believe it isn’t true. Hate to break it to you, but there’s no smoke without fire. Brexit may have happened, but until the newly validated racist/xenophobic crowd are put back in their box, proclaiming that you’re the “least racist country” in Europe isn’t going to address concerns about this behaviour.


I’m not denying that immigration was just one factor in the campaign, it just does not mean you tar every person with the same brush. I also acknowledge that there are a number of pro-remain who feel just as deeply about controlling immigration into the UK, as a couple of close friends of mine are anti immigration but also happen to voted remain. To the majority of people who voted in the referenda there was not just one thing that persuaded how they voted but many things.

My narrative is mine and mine alone just like my vote at the ballot box was mine and mine alone. I listen and read and make myself as informed as I possibly can prior to voting. But I just like to laugh at those on this forum who seem to think that whatever was said by the campaign is gospel for everyone who vote to leave.


I’m not tarring anyone with the same brush. Just pointing out that this racism/xenophobia issue is alive and kicking because some Brexit voters have a different version of post-Brexit Britain to you, and as part of the “winning” side, with all the validation and legitimacy that brings, they aren’t going to go away quietly.

They’re your opponents now. Not remainers. Best take them on, than try to shift blame to remainers.



I apologize as I have miss constructed you’re post and agree that racism should be stamped out. But I do disagree that I’m am trying to blame pro remain, it’s just pro remain are throwing the racism incendiary bombs within this thread as if it’s a prerequisite to be pro leave
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:41 pm

Arion640 wrote:
They will have no choice if Scotland go independent and join the EU. The spanish government will have huge pressure on them, i’m shocked they’ve managed to hold on to Catalonia until now to be honest. I feel the independence movement there is larger than Scotland.

The national spanish government has a veto on any new accession, so that's pretty much the end of it.

The UK doesn't have that veto any more by your own choice, so Scotland's path to independent EU membership has just been opened up on Brexit Day, and for anyone with open eyes and ears it should have been obvious that the EU-friendly scots would find a warm welcome should they make it to independence.
Last edited by Klaus on Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4236
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:43 pm

Arion640 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Okay, well it’s up to them...Catalan independence WILL follow, and flanders will be next.


Catalan independentists are very much pro-EU, and Spain holds a veto there so I wouldn't hold my breath.


They will have no choice if Scotland go independent and join the EU. The spanish government will have huge pressure on them, i’m shocked they’ve managed to hold on to Catalonia until now to be honest. I feel the independence movement there is larger than Scotland.


Yet the UK is now serving as a good example of what happens when you crash out and cut ties. Pro-indy sentiment is falling and Indy parties are supporting the current government.
 
A101
Posts: 2938
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:34 pm

Klaus wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
They will have no choice if Scotland go independent and join the EU. The spanish government will have huge pressure on them, i’m shocked they’ve managed to hold on to Catalonia until now to be honest. I feel the independence movement there is larger than Scotland.

The national spanish government has a veto on any new accession, so that's pretty much the end of it.

The UK doesn't have that veto any more by your own choice, so Scotland's path to independent EU membership has just been opened up on Brexit Day, and for anyone with open eyes and ears it should have been obvious that the EU-friendly scots would find a warm welcome should they make it to independence.



If the Scottish ever become independent and the EU agree to the Scottish joining, I wish the EU well in seeking another Net Beneficiary instead of a net contributor to join, just means less in the pot to go around for the EU.
 
A101
Posts: 2938
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:47 pm

JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Catalan independentists are very much pro-EU, and Spain holds a veto there so I wouldn't hold my breath.


They will have no choice if Scotland go independent and join the EU. The spanish government will have huge pressure on them, i’m shocked they’ve managed to hold on to Catalonia until now to be honest. I feel the independence movement there is larger than Scotland.


Yet the UK is now serving as a good example of what happens when you crash out and cut ties. Pro-indy sentiment is falling and Indy parties are supporting the current government.



I agree, the UK leaving the EU makes a good case study for any others wanting to leave in the future.

The UK made many many mistakes and everyone can learn from them. The number one lesson is do not put someone I charge of it unless they believe in what they are doing. And number two the WA need not be as complicated as it was, as a majority of just does not need to be in it.

The WA should only have been purely an agreement on the Financial Decisions on leaving the EU nothing more nothing less everything else is a decisions on the future relationship.

Had of been me I would have scraped the whole WA and just focused on the financial dealings of separation
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