Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Grizzly410 · Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:00 pm

I joked earlier with the bendy banana's but despite being a Euromyth from the 90's it's still on !
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/ ... xit-calls/

Klaus · Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:23 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
I joked earlier with the bendy banana's but despite being a Euromyth from the 90's it's still on !
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/ ... xit-calls/

Desperately trying to retroactively scrape together just any justifications for their already rigidly entrenched belief in Brexit. Just where have I seen something like that before...? :scratchchin:

Meanwhile, in the European Parliament:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... free-trade

A leaked copy of a draft resolution from the European parliament’s newly formed EU-UK co-ordination group suggests the UK should pledge to match European standards on workers’ rights, environmental protection and state aid, when the EU updates its rulebook.

The draft seen by the Guardian states that “a level playing field” should be guaranteed “through robust commitments” and “with a view to dynamic alignment”, listing competition, social and labour standards, environment and UN climate goals, and consumer protection.

And:

The resolution, which will be put to the vote of the full parliament next Wednesday, also:

Urges Boris Johnson to “immediately clarify” his government’s approach to the Irish border agreement. MEPs voiced concern after the British prime minister repeated an incorrect claim that no checks would be required on goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland.
Proposes including gender equality in trade talks, with measures to combat the gender pay gap.
Insists the UK sign up to the EU’s “evolving standards” on anti-money laundering.
Recommends the UK should not be a net beneficiary of any EU programmes, threatening the UK’s beneficial position in research funding. The UK received more in EU research grants than it paid into the research programme (although it was an overall net contributor to the EU budget).

This is pretty much a problem of BoJo's own making at least to that extent, as his own aggressive rhetoric has raised serious concern about both the future course of the UK and about the amount of good faith that can be expected.

The Single Market can only work with a level playing field within the European Union, so permitting a third country full access but allowing them to fall back on compliance with the same rules every member will be bound to just invites trouble – not least given the major issues with compliance the UK already had while it was a member, so this would be an even bigger problem in the future wth leadership like this.

A101 · Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:33 am

Klaus wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
I joked earlier with the bendy banana's but despite being a Euromyth from the 90's it's still on !
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/ ... xit-calls/

Desperately trying to retroactively scrape together just any justifications for their already rigidly entrenched belief in Brexit. Just where have I seen something like that before...?

Meanwhile, in the European Parliament:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... free-trade

A leaked copy of a draft resolution from the European parliament’s newly formed EU-UK co-ordination group suggests the UK should pledge to match European standards on workers’ rights, environmental protection and state aid, when the EU updates its rulebook.

The draft seen by the Guardian states that “a level playing field” should be guaranteed “through robust commitments” and “with a view to dynamic alignment”, listing competition, social and labour standards, environment and UN climate goals, and consumer protection.

And:

The resolution, which will be put to the vote of the full parliament next Wednesday, also:

Urges Boris Johnson to “immediately clarify” his government’s approach to the Irish border agreement. MEPs voiced concern after the British prime minister repeated an incorrect claim that no checks would be required on goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland.
Proposes including gender equality in trade talks, with measures to combat the gender pay gap.
Insists the UK sign up to the EU’s “evolving standards” on anti-money laundering.
Recommends the UK should not be a net beneficiary of any EU programmes, threatening the UK’s beneficial position in research funding. The UK received more in EU research grants than it paid into the research programme (although it was an overall net contributor to the EU budget).

This is pretty much a problem of BoJo's own making at least to that extent, as his own aggressive rhetoric has raised serious concern about both the future course of the UK and about the amount of good faith that can be expected.

The Single Market can only work with a level playing field within the European Union, so permitting a third country full access but allowing them to fall back on compliance with the same rules every member will be bound to just invites trouble – not least given the major issues with compliance the UK already had while it was a member, so this would be an even bigger problem in the future wth leadership like this.

Walk away boris. Besides the resolution is not binding on anyone.

Klaus · Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:27 am

A101 wrote:
Walk away boris.

To where, exactly?

The slate is still blank on what, exactly, the claimed advantages would actually look like!
(Let alone any kind of advantage that could make up for the massive loss of EU trade!)

Right now it's just BoJo effectively threatening the UK's suicide as the alternative, and that doesn't exactly put a lot of pressure onto anybody else.

Besides the resolution is not binding on anyone.

Not yet, but from past experience and from context it looks a lot like that's what the Parliament will require in the end.

And that's just the European parliament – you'll need the 27 national and a few regional parliaments' assent as well, and it's likely that a few of those will get a word in as well.

Ah, the joys of being on the outside...!

A101 · Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:17 am

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Walk away boris.

To where, exactly?

The slate is still blank on what, exactly, the claimed advantages would actually look like!
(Let alone any kind of advantage that could make up for the massive loss of EU trade!)

Right now it's just BoJo effectively threatening the UK's suicide as the alternative, and that doesn't exactly put a lot of pressure onto anybody else.

Besides the resolution is not binding on anyone.

Not yet, but from past experience and from context it looks a lot like that's what the Parliament will require in the end.

And that's just the European parliament – you'll need the 27 national and a few regional parliaments' assent as well, and it's likely that a few of those will get a word in as well.

Ah, the joys of being on the outside...!

Walk away to a partnership agreement like the current AU/EU agreement

94717 · Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:44 am

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Walk away boris.

To where, exactly?

The slate is still blank on what, exactly, the claimed advantages would actually look like!
(Let alone any kind of advantage that could make up for the massive loss of EU trade!)

Right now it's just BoJo effectively threatening the UK's suicide as the alternative, and that doesn't exactly put a lot of pressure onto anybody else.

Besides the resolution is not binding on anyone.

Not yet, but from past experience and from context it looks a lot like that's what the Parliament will require in the end.

And that's just the European parliament – you'll need the 27 national and a few regional parliaments' assent as well, and it's likely that a few of those will get a word in as well.

Ah, the joys of being on the outside...!

What is important is that the parliament has veto if the future deal does not comply with their will, but of that is totally false considering what we read on this page and uk press like express :-)

Express spend their time presenting how EU falls appart and are so nervous about the UK advantage. EU will soonneed to allign to UK demands.

seahawk · Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:02 am

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Walk away boris.

To where, exactly?

The slate is still blank on what, exactly, the claimed advantages would actually look like!
(Let alone any kind of advantage that could make up for the massive loss of EU trade!)

Right now it's just BoJo effectively threatening the UK's suicide as the alternative, and that doesn't exactly put a lot of pressure onto anybody else.

Besides the resolution is not binding on anyone.

Not yet, but from past experience and from context it looks a lot like that's what the Parliament will require in the end.

And that's just the European parliament – you'll need the 27 national and a few regional parliaments' assent as well, and it's likely that a few of those will get a word in as well.

Ah, the joys of being on the outside...!

Walk away to a partnership agreement like the current AU/EU agreement

Australia will be the best solution, as it gives freedom and control to the UK.

Klaus · Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:17 am

A101 wrote:
Walk away to a partnership agreement like the current AU/EU agreement

If you're thinking of Australia there, that's almost nothing. The UK economy would crater if it was effectively cut off from the EU and it had to live with new massive barriers where there had been none.

The "australian deal" BoJo loves to wang on about is nothing but an euphemism for no deal which he doesn't dare to mention as what it actually is.

And the UK couldn't actually get even the weak and distant relationship Australia has, simply because at close proximity that would not be in the interest of the EU, so an actual no deal would probably still be preferable to the European Union.

A101 · Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:42 am

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Walk away to a partnership agreement like the current AU/EU agreement

If you're thinking of Australia there, that's almost nothing. The UK economy would crater if it was effectively cut off from the EU and it had to live with new massive barriers where there had been none.

The "australian deal" BoJo loves to wang on about is nothing but an euphemism for no deal which he doesn't dare to mention as what it actually is.

And the UK couldn't actually get even the weak and distant relationship Australia has, simply because at close proximity that would not be in the interest of the EU, so an actual no deal would probably still be preferable to the European Union.

Yes am awere what the AU deals is, more like specific mutual recognition in agreed areas than an actual trade deal, we can still doing basic agreement if both sides agree on tariffs and such but if that not what the EU will do so be it.

Dutchy · Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:39 am

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Walk away to a partnership agreement like the current AU/EU agreement

If you're thinking of Australia there, that's almost nothing. The UK economy would crater if it was effectively cut off from the EU and it had to live with new massive barriers where there had been none.

The "australian deal" BoJo loves to wang on about is nothing but an euphemism for no deal which he doesn't dare to mention as what it actually is.

And the UK couldn't actually get even the weak and distant relationship Australia has, simply because at close proximity that would not be in the interest of the EU, so an actual no deal would probably still be preferable to the European Union.

Yes am awere what the AU deals is, more like specific mutual recognition in agreed areas than an actual trade deal, we can still doing basic agreement if both sides agree on tariffs and such but if that not what the EU will do so be it.

You lot still believe in a hard Brexit, don't you?

sabenapilot · Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:44 am

Meanwhile, the EU keeps piliing pressure on the UK at a pace previously unseen to any third country.

It has now emerged that on the very last day of the UK's membership, the EC recalculated the British contribution to the EU budget as part of them formally leaving the Union. This year, due to an increase in Gross National Income and VAT contributions, Britain owes the EU an extra €1.3 billion vs the initial calculations made around this time last year.

The demand for payment was sent to the UK embassy to the EU and has been notified to the British government, who refused to comment.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... rexit-day/

I guess the NHS won't be funded extra, at least not in Feb and March then?

Oh, well, as from April, then, 350M will come their way every week, right?

sabenapilot · Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:48 am

A101 wrote:
Yes am awere what the AU deals is, more like specific mutual recognition in agreed areas than an actual trade deal, we can still doing basic agreement if both sides agree on tariffs and such but if that not what the EU will do so be it.

if that's what the UK wants, the EU will offer it.

However, it has been said several times by Brussels that it is not possible to complete a ful set of tariffs and all the rules that go with it by the end of this year, so that would mean either an extension of the UK's vassalage status (something the UK Gov refuses) or a full halting of cross channel trade until the tariff scheme is in place!

Due to the self-imposed time limit, you're effectively no longer talking about NO DEAL then; you're effectively talking about NO BUSINESS. :shock:

In short: unless the UK Gov finally gets away from the idea they are almost at war with the EU (Brexiteers urgently have to get used to the need for respect for what is now Britains most important foreign trading partner and thus start to quote from a whole new and much more gallant speechbook for them on Europe) a huge cliffedge is awaiting us all at the end of this year, followed by a second adjustment phase to the new tariffs somewhere later, if ever: great way to cut red tape or to make Britain great again, isn't it?

Seriously....

94717 · Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:00 am

Austraila export to EU is mainly products like meat, wine, minerals.

Why do an FTA like this suits exports like services and cars?

UK seems to to believe that UK EU27 trade patterns still look like 1960s. Going back to 1960 will be traumatic for UK.

A101 · Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:11 am

Sabenaplot wrote:
Due to the self-imposed time limit, you're effectively no longer talking about NO DEAL then; you're effectively talking about NO BUSINESS.

So you think the EU will stop all trade because we did sign a win-lose trade deal with the EU..... Ya dreaming mate

Dutchy · Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:24 am

A101 wrote:
Sabenaplot wrote:
Due to the self-imposed time limit, you're effectively no longer talking about NO DEAL then; you're effectively talking about NO BUSINESS.

So you think the EU will stop all trade because we did sign a win-lose trade deal with the EU..... Ya dreaming mate

Still gambling on the goodness of the EU. The EU will not give the UK a deal which it cherry-picks. You are talking about a lose-lose deal, mate, with the UK loosing way more, don't know why you keep promoting this kind of deal.

94717 · Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:38 am

UK brexiteers need to ask themself what does UK export to EU that EU customers cannot for avoiding problems can buy from another EU country?

I would say London based financial services.

Probably aviation industry, like RR engines and Airbus wings.

Japanese cars? Not soo much.

So even with 0 tarrifs the administration will be an obstacle. Ask Norway.

The next questions, in the area of aviation and financial the question will be how long... If EU makes life complicated for London we will see duplicated function inside EU where London is similar to today but expansion and specific functions moves. We talk about a new wing for Airbus 320. Will this be produced in UK or EU?

94717 · Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:45 am

Shall we not have a new thread called UK EU FTA negotiations?

The current thread is acting like UK is still a member and EU should act in the best interest of UK.

UK is out. It is still aligned to EU standards, bu only so for another 10 month.

sabenapilot · Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:05 am

A101 wrote:
Sabenaplot wrote:
Due to the self-imposed time limit, you're effectively no longer talking about NO DEAL then; you're effectively talking about NO BUSINESS.

So you think the EU will stop all trade because we didn't sign a win-lose trade deal with the EU..... Ya dreaming mate

Not dreaming at all, just stating the dead obvious!

Remember there's one little problem with WTO rules for Britain (or Australia type trade as the UK GOV now wants to call it euphimistically): contrary to Australia (or in fact any other WTO memmber) the UK has no tariff scheme of their own at the WTO nor has it agreed to any seperate bilateral one with the EU: what conditions are you going to trade under with the EU? The generic tariff plan of the WTO, for a generic country?

ROTFL: those are simply crippling!

It's effectively a tariff wall, one even D. Trump doesn't dare to pull up!

I'd have expected this little issue to have been understood by now but clearly not...

94717 · Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:10 am

Worth mentioning is that the election in ROI might create a government very much in favour in one united Ireland...

Grizzly410 · Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:15 am

olle wrote:
We talk about a new wing for Airbus 320. Will this be produced in UK or EU?

Airbus Spain complains for a long time now to have a workshare smaller than their ownership share of Airbus while having the cheapest cost of production.
Even though I believe the didn't expect to win it but they were asking for the next A32s FAL line to be in Spain and the Toulouse selection, even if perfectly justified, just raise the level of complain.

Even if the design was to remain in Filton that would make perfect sense for Airbus to produce a new A32s wing in Puerto Real.
With it's cheap labor cost, existing real estate and workforce that used to be dedicated to A380 CFRP Horizontal Tail Plane, and knowledge in automated assembly of movable surfaces there is already a lot arguments in favor of Puerto Real. If you add uncertainty about possible added cost/delay due to UK being a EU 3rd country, it looks like a slam dunk.

sabenapilot · Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:27 am

olle wrote:
Worth mentioning is that the election in ROI might create a government very much in favour in one united Ireland...

If it becomes official government policy of the RoI to ask for the referendum in NI and to push for Irish reunification, then it will also become the EU's position, similar to how the EU now fully supports Spain over Gibraltar too (see how any FTA agreement between the EU and the UK will not cover the disputed territory, no matter what London thinks).

As we've seen demonstrated over the past couple of years, the EU27 really do put their full weight entirely behind a member state whenever it has a dispute with a third country.

sabenapilot · Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:31 am

Grizzly410 wrote:
olle wrote:
We talk about a new wing for Airbus 320. Will this be produced in UK or EU?

Airbus Spain complains for a long time now to have a workshare smaller than their ownership share of Airbus while having the cheapest cost of production.
Even though I believe the didn't expect to win it but they were asking for the next A32s FAL line to be in Spain and the Toulouse selection, even if perfectly justified, just raise the level of complain.

Even if the design was to remain in Filton that would make perfect sense for Airbus to produce a new A32s wing in Puerto Real.
With it's cheap labor cost, existing real estate and workforce that used to be dedicated to A380 CFRP Horizontal Tail Plane, and knowledge in automated assembly of movable surfaces there is already a lot arguments in favor of Puerto Real. If you add uncertainty about possible added cost/delay due to UK being a EU 3rd country, it looks like a slam dunk.

Indeed, it's a given additional Airbus production WILL come to Puerto Real... and I wouldn't be surprised indeed if it comes at the detriment of the UK production...

Even without politics involved, the cards are stacked against the UK here...

and we all know politics will get involved at the right moment too, just to make absolutely sure the cards fall the way they will: not an open and direct intervention by Paris, Berlin or Brussels of course, but say a generous investment by the EIB, which can no longer invest in any UK infrastructure sadly because of Brexit and the British desire to also pull out of the EIB :shhh:

https://www.eib.org/en/press/news/eib-p ... -group.htm

SomebodyInTLS · Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:39 am

Klaus wrote:
primarily because Apple introduced it that way with early iPods and stuck to the same principle all throughout iPhones and iPads since then, and the rest of the industry followed them.

That earlier awkward EU mandate for micro USB had nothing to do with it.

Hmmm... I think I detect a fanboy...

Like I said, I was in the industry. You are wrong. In fact you are the first person I've ever heard to say Apple is behind the standardisation when everyone else says Apple has always fought against any form of standardisation.

agill · Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:49 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Klaus wrote:
primarily because Apple introduced it that way with early iPods and stuck to the same principle all throughout iPhones and iPads since then, and the rest of the industry followed them.

That earlier awkward EU mandate for micro USB had nothing to do with it.

Hmmm... I think I detect a fanboy...

Like I said, I was in the industry. You are wrong. In fact you are the first person I've ever heard to say Apple is behind the standardisation when everyone else says Apple has always fought against any form of standardisation.

And still, (apart being an example of standardisation) this has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion in this thread.

SomebodyInTLS · Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:50 am

Arion640 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
You all forget we retain our soft empire, the commonwealth. We are never alone.

I know many, many people from various commonwealth countries.... don't hold your breath.

If anything, coming in as the ex-"colonial b***tards" is a hindrance.

That’s a highly offensive comment.

Oh purleeease! Stop pretending to clutch your pearls. :roll:

I am talking about the jokey way that friends and relatives make fun of *ME* as a "colonial". It's a joke, but it's grounded in underlying sentiment. That's a fact.

Besides, the french, dutch and spanish empires committed equally as worse atrocities.

Nice strawman - but that deflection fails as I never said otherwise. In fact I could have made the exact same point regarding the Dutch or French when and people I know from their ex-colonies.

94717 · Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:46 pm

uk FTA negotiations with US UK stopped because Boris dont jump after mr Trump ;-)

Brexit timing with mr Trump in the white house? USA wants total surrender.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... minic-Raab

Dutchy · Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:55 pm

Another sign of how big business sees Brexit.

The Brexit has already made a victim. Because BMW has decided to postpone the next generation Mini: for cost reasons and because of the uncertainty about the Brexit. The current Mini has been on the market since 2014 and therefore has to last for a while.

The United Kingdom left the European Union on Friday 31 January. Has that brought the uncertainty to an end? No! Everything will stay the same until the end of this year, but nobody knows what happens next. In the coming months, British and European politicians will have to sit down to reach a trade agreement. If they don't, the rules of the World Trade Organization will apply and there will be import tariffs, for example.

More production to Born
For manufacturers such as BMW, it is a difficult situation. As they do not know what the situation will be next year, they cannot make investments in the UK. "Suppose that import rates apply and that are between 0 and 5 percent, then our business case does not change very much," said BMW CEO Oliver Zipse. But if there are higher rates, then BMW will transfer the Mini production to Born in the Netherlands, where VDL Nedcar is already making the Mini hatchback, Cabrio, Countryman and BMW X1.

Link in Dutch]

It is a shame though, I like the Mini.

Dutchy · Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:56 pm

olle wrote:
uk FTA negotiations with US UK stopped because Boris dont jump after mr Trump

Brexit timing with mr Trump in the white house? USA wants total surrender.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... minic-Raab

As aspected. Nice negotiation tactic though, first make sweet talk with your perspective counterpart and make sure he makes an irreversable stap which leaves him volerable and then go in for the kill. Who could have thought :roll:

LJ · Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:53 pm

olle wrote:
uk FTA negotiations with US UK stopped because Boris dont jump after mr Trump

Brexit timing with mr Trump in the white house? USA wants total surrender.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... minic-Raab

So much for taking back control.....then again, who needs a FTA with the US if you can trade on WTO terms.

Dutchy · Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:54 pm

LJ wrote:
olle wrote:
uk FTA negotiations with US UK stopped because Boris dont jump after mr Trump

Brexit timing with mr Trump in the white house? USA wants total surrender.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... minic-Raab

So much for taking back control.....then again, who needs a FTA with the US if you can trade on WTO terms.

love those WTO terms.

A101 · Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:08 pm

olle wrote:
uk FTA negotiations with US UK stopped because Boris dont jump after mr Trump

Brexit timing with mr Trump in the white house? USA wants total surrender.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... minic-Raab

I’m surprised you are quoting the express considering how much ridicule it receives from pro-remain club,

Besides wether or not Huawei is a risk to national security it does show that the various voices on here that Johnson government will be beholden and subservient to the US is just plain wrong. The government is showing it will not be bullied into something that is not in the interests of the UK. It certainly sends a message that the EU cannot just walk over the a Johnson Government.

Dutchy · Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:15 pm

A101 wrote:
olle wrote:
uk FTA negotiations with US UK stopped because Boris dont jump after mr Trump

Brexit timing with mr Trump in the white house? USA wants total surrender.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... minic-Raab

I’m surprised you are quoting the express considering how much ridicule it receives from pro-remain club,

Besides wether or not Huawei is a risk to national security it does show that the various voices on here that Johnson government will be beholden and subservient to the US is just plain wrong. The government is showing it will not be bullied into something that is not in the interests of the UK. It certainly sends a message that the EU cannot just walk over the a Johnson Government.

wow, you can twist anything, well done.

LJ · Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:59 pm

A101 wrote:
I’m surprised you are quoting the express considering how much ridicule it receives from pro-remain club,

The Guardian has the same article though less dramatic as The Express.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/feb/06/no-10-say-fallout-between-trump-and-johnson-overblown

A101 wrote:
Besides wether or not Huawei is a risk to national security it does show that the various voices on here that Johnson government will be beholden and subservient to the US is just plain wrong. The government is showing it will not be bullied into something that is not in the interests of the UK. It certainly sends a message that the EU cannot just walk over the a Johnson Government.

You can also explain it as a negative for the UK. The EU knows that the UK annoyed the US thus needs the EU. Moreover, I would guess the EU isn't convinced that decision will hold as the opposition is fierce. In the end Trump may win and the UK will show Huawei the door, annoying the Chinese....

Grizzly410 · Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:14 pm

A101 wrote:
The government is showing it will not be bullied into something that is not in the interests of the UK. It certainly sends a message that the EU cannot just walk over the a Johnson Government.

When will you stop using conflictive tone and vocabulary ? :white:

No one wants to "walk over" another one... Everyone wants to extract the best condition for their country/bloc with a deal, and knows concession will be needed to achieve that. It's not being bullied , it's just something called negotiation ! Mind you, if it was the case we could argue that UK refusing to accept something that is not in its interest is bullying the others... That just doesn't make sense, right ?

The war is over, you won A101 !

Can't remember who posted a link to this blog first but I want to thank him. It's a pleasure to read Chris Grey post each friday.
https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.co ... g-and.html

Brexiters are no longer, if they ever were, the victims they portray themselves to be. As Nigel Farage said at last week’s celebrations, “the war is over, we have won” (£). To the victor, go the spoils.

sabenapilot · Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:25 pm

I honnestly think all these rants and outbursts by D. Trump don't mean a lot: :he's known to be highly flammable and is notoriously direct and outspoken during private talks.
The very first time, it did make quite an impression, but the world has come to live with it and just moves on without much notice these days, knowing it wil blow over too...
It doesn't mean there's not going to be a deal between the US and the UK, nor that he's deliberately going to delay it as some sort of a revenge.
What it does show however, is that the transatlantic honeymoon is already over, well before it even started and that this 'great deal' he's been promising the UK is going to be yet another one of those 'America First' deals.... or not at all.
The naive idea that somehow the US would do the UK a great favour is now clearly unfounded: the UK is very much on its own and significantly weakened: everybody knows this and is ready to take full benefit from that. Brexit is a gift that keeps on giving and D. Trump isn't the man not to take full benefit of such a good opportunity.

94717 · Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:50 pm

Here's comes the next;

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... uel-macron

France demands full access to UK fishing water for any trade deal... Brexit should have been done with Obama as nice president...

Now the blood is in the water...

By the way I like the express way to describe things... ;-)

The Brexiteers newspapers are definitely more funny to read then BBC!

Klaus · Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:15 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Klaus wrote:
primarily because Apple introduced it that way with early iPods and stuck to the same principle all throughout iPhones and iPads since then, and the rest of the industry followed them.

That earlier awkward EU mandate for micro USB had nothing to do with it.

Hmmm... I think I detect a fanboy...

That's the lazy catch-all judgment whenever common prejudices are being challenged, quite similar to the oversimplified Brexit narrative.

Like I said, I was in the industry. You are wrong. In fact you are the first person I've ever heard to say Apple is behind the standardisation when everyone else says Apple has always fought against any form of standardisation.

The same way in the UK "everybody knows" that the EU is "really" just an evil conspiracy.

De facto standardization to chargers with standard USB sockets was in fact driven by Apple for the reasons given, long before the competition caught up eventually, even if those facts don't fit the popular narrative.

agill wrote:
And still, (apart being an example of standardisation) this has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion in this thread.

It's been introduced as a specific example of an EU intervention, if not really the most constructive one. But still within the normal range for political decision-making.

SomebodyInTLS · Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:16 pm

Well we are indeed going off topic, so this will be my last post on the topic of USB charging and I hope the mods leave it here.

I already said I was in the industry at the time, so I do actually know what I'm talking about.

Klaus wrote:
De facto standardization to chargers with standard USB sockets was in fact driven by Apple for the reasons given, long before the competition caught up eventually, even if those facts don't fit the popular narrative.

"OMTP standard - Micro-USB was endorsed as the standard connector for data and power on mobile devices by the cellular phone carrier group Open Mobile Terminal Platform (OMTP) in 2007. Micro-USB was embraced as the "Universal Charging Solution" by the International Telecommunication Union (ITU) in October 2009. In Europe, micro-USB became the defined common external power supply (EPS) for use with smartphones sold in the EU, and 14 of the world's largest mobile phone manufacturers signed the EU's common EPS Memorandum of Understanding (MoU). Apple, one of the original MoU signers, makes Micro-USB adapters available"
"In July 2012, the USB Promoters Group announced the finalization of the USB Power Delivery (PD) specification (USB PD rev. 1), an extension that specifies using certified PD aware USB cables with standard USB Type-A and Type-B connectors to deliver increased power (more than 7.5 W) to devices with greater power demands. [...] The intent is to permit uniformly charging laptops, tablets, USB-powered disks and similarly higher-power consumer electronics, as a natural extension of existing European and Chinese mobile telephone charging standards."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardw ... y_Charging

"Apple introduced a new 8-pin dock connector, named Lightning, on September 12, 2012 with their announcement of the iPhone 5, the fifth-generation iPod Touch, and the seventh-generation iPod Nano, which all feature it."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPod#Connectivity

So Apple, introduce Firewire as a competitor to the standard that the rest of the entire industry has already adopted 5 years earlier and try to get round existing European and Chinese legislation mandating USB connection by offering an adapter.

Ertro · Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:19 pm

Move into standard charging connector happened in industry starting in 2009 and at that time the standard which everybody including Apple agreed was micro-USB
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/ ... arger.html

I am not an expert on Apple stuff but to my understanding Apple at that time and long past that continued to use its own 30 pin dock connector as the only one who did not fully want to actually use the agreed standard. About 2012 Apple changed its connector but it was not into the standard USB type connector but into Lightning connector.

So to my understanding the whole other industry standardized into USB type connector half a decade before Apple finally came kicking and screaming into the same fold. Explanations are coming loud how the standard micro-USB was awkward and not a good standard and whatnot but that just works to show that it was not Apple who drove towards standardization but rather who resisted to the last moment. At that time when Apple finally put USB-C on their phones rest of the industry had already used the agreed industry-standard micro-USB connector for half a decade.

Sorry offtopic.

Arion640 · Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:48 pm

A101 wrote:
olle wrote:
uk FTA negotiations with US UK stopped because Boris dont jump after mr Trump

Brexit timing with mr Trump in the white house? USA wants total surrender.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... minic-Raab

I’m surprised you are quoting the express considering how much ridicule it receives from pro-remain club,

Besides wether or not Huawei is a risk to national security it does show that the various voices on here that Johnson government will be beholden and subservient to the US is just plain wrong. The government is showing it will not be bullied into something that is not in the interests of the UK. It certainly sends a message that the EU cannot just walk over the a Johnson Government.

The pro EU gang quote the express when it suits them.

Arion640 · Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:49 pm

olle wrote:
Here's comes the next;

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... uel-macron

France demands full access to UK fishing water for any trade deal... Brexit should have been done with Obama as nice president...

Now the blood is in the water...

By the way I like the express way to describe things... The Brexiteers newspapers are definitely more funny to read then BBC!

I’m sorry - this source isn’t reliable. Fake news.

Klaus · Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:40 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Klaus wrote:
De facto standardization to chargers with standard USB sockets was in fact driven by Apple for the reasons given, long before the competition caught up eventually, even if those facts don't fit the popular narrative.

"OMTP standard - Micro-USB was endorsed as the standard connector for data and power on mobile devices by the cellular phone carrier group Open Mobile Terminal Platform (OMTP) in 2007.

You keep confusing device connectors with charger connectors, which are two different things. The EU directive only deals with the device end which just doesn't have anything to do with the charger despite the explicit labeling of the directive as such but only with the cable, since Apple had already established the separation of charger and cable which was then taken up in the general market.

That is the confusion here, and unfortunately that directive has been on the wrong path because of it from day one.

So Apple, introduce Firewire as a competitor to the standard that the rest of the entire industry has already adopted 5 years earlier and try to get round existing European and Chinese legislation mandating USB connection by offering an adapter.

That's even more confused – almost on Brexit level – since FireWire a) was never intended as a USB competitor and b) there was never any such adapter from FireWire to micro USB. Also, FireWire had been abandoned for iPods already, long before the first iPhone was released.

And the entire muddled topic is a good example for when politicians would be better served by keeping out of some issues which are already solving themselves. But it's always the question of recognizing the difference between those and other issues, and that has been and will remain the crux with Brexit, too.

Klaus · Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:41 am

olle wrote:
Shall we not have a new thread called UK EU FTA negotiations?

The current thread is acting like UK is still a member and EU should act in the best interest of UK.

UK is out. It is still aligned to EU standards, bu only so for another 10 month.

The negotiations now are still part of Brexit, as will be those from 2021 onwards.

Klaus · Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:50 am

A101 wrote:
Sabenaplot wrote:
Due to the self-imposed time limit, you're effectively no longer talking about NO DEAL then; you're effectively talking about NO BUSINESS.

So you think the EU will stop all trade because we did sign a win-lose trade deal with the EU..... Ya dreaming mate

If you fail to agree to a new deal with the EU, you automatically erect barriers to trade which will have the same effect as a cessation of trade for many businesses.

Some may survive and succeed in pushing the added costs on to the UK consumers who won't have much other choice than to swallow the ensuing inflation, but many UK businesses will either flee the country or will go bust if there isn't a reasonable deal, and inward investment is already receding as we speak.

Klaus · Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:52 am

A101 wrote:
Yes am awere what the AU deals is, more like specific mutual recognition in agreed areas than an actual trade deal, we can still doing basic agreement if both sides agree on tariffs and such but if that not what the EU will do so be it.

You're confusing a limited certification regime for foreign exporters with the fantasy of actual mutual recognition of each others' standards, which is simply not the case and which the UK can't get either.

Ertro · Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:58 am

Klaus wrote:
...

There was no directive. Politicians did not get involved. They only pointed to a perceived problem and make a plead for industry to solve the problem. And the industry did solve the problem. Except Apple still wanted to be different and try their best to hijack people into Apple ecosystem by eg. having only apple compatible charger connectors available in gyms and restaurants that could not charge other brands when other phones wanted to get charged they could not plug into the cables offered by these gyms and restaurants because the connectors available to plug phones into were Apple proprietary as Apple intended.

Klaus · Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:11 am

If there's anything that's similar to Brexit there, it's that many people love easy scapegoats to assign blame to instead of bothering with the actual facts.

Open a new thread if you must, but don't count on seeing me there.

Ertro · Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:15 am

Yes, This is pretty close to brexit. Some people want to blame EU when EU had nothing to do with the problem. In this case EU has worked exceptionally well all around for a very long time and every try to put some blame on EU is just not understanding the issue and how well and with minimal interference EU has been working towards solving the problem so that whole world can benefit from the results. The only problem for EU is that it is not very good in advertizing its successes.

You keep bringing up the charger brick and what connectors it has and claim confusion. There is no confusion as there is no problem and no solution that has any significance that anybody cares about near the charger brick. Forget about the charger brick. It is only at the mobile device connector that has a massive problem that both consumers, EU and mobile industry perceived as a problem and solved.

A101 · Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:57 am

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Yes am awere what the AU deals is, more like specific mutual recognition in agreed areas than an actual trade deal, we can still doing basic agreement if both sides agree on tariffs and such but if that not what the EU will do so be it.

You're confusing a limited certification regime for foreign exporters with the fantasy of actual mutual recognition of each others' standards, which is simply not the case and which the UK can't get either.

No confusion at at all, that’s why I’m for divergence

Klaus · Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:19 am

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Yes am awere what the AU deals is, more like specific mutual recognition in agreed areas than an actual trade deal, we can still doing basic agreement if both sides agree on tariffs and such but if that not what the EU will do so be it.

You're confusing a limited certification regime for foreign exporters with the fantasy of actual mutual recognition of each others' standards, which is simply not the case and which the UK can't get either.

No confusion at at all, that’s why I’m for divergence

So you deliberately want to make life as difficult, miserable and expensive as possible for UK businesses interacting with the outside world.

That explains your vote for Brexit and your support for BoJo's crash-out Brexit, but what for exactly?

By now this is not fun and games any more but increasingly about hard and substantial consequences, and no benefits in sight at all.

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