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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:55 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Not just that, man, not just that. You are still believing in that the promised unicorns will finally come. Till then, you continue to blame the EU, I guess.



Oh forget the rebuttal to this from you,

It’s time to get off the merry go round of persistently saying I blame the EU for all problems in the UK

But please do show where I have blamed the EU on Brexit please


Now you blame the EU - being a vassal state - for not having trade deals of having lowering standards. It was the UK government that signed the divorce agreement.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:09 am

If the UK uses the money it wasted on the UK for investments in the UK, the economy will boom. The UK is stronger than ever, free and prosperous.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:41 am

AeroVega wrote:
scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
In 2018 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was forecast to be £4 billion.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.for ... rules/amp/


Peanuts in GDP terms - 0.4%.

2018 spending on Social Security, NHS and Defence totalled nearly £380 billion or 18% of GDP.


But for some of that money you get hospitals, doctors, a relatively strong military, etc. Where does the money to the EU go to? It is mostly wasted on handouts and bureaucrats. The fact that the EU decided to keep the same number of MEPs after losing the UK ones is one example how the EU thinks it can waste EU citizens' money anyway it likes. The EU could have avoided Brexit if it had reflected on its wasteful nature and done something about it, such as ending the travelling circus to Strasbourg.


I agree with this post. The EU is totally unaccountable to anyone. People said we should of stayed and reformed it, we tried that and it was impossible.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:44 am

LJ wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
The EU could have avoided Brexit if it had reflected on its wasteful nature and done something about it, such as ending the travelling circus to Strasbourg.


Seems that the UK government is also starting a travelling circus. Not with its parliament but by moving part of the Treasury to Northern UK. Good to see it's not only the EU who wastes money. I wonder what the civil servants think about this idea.....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/23/chancellor-will-send-treasury-staff-to-the-north-of-england

AeroVega wrote:
Yet some of our Dutch members cannot come to criticize it, even though in their country, almost no new houses are allowed to be built because most of the the nitrogen budget has been consumed by agriculture.


Only the Dutch farmers support CAP, the majority of the Dutch wouldn't care if some farmers loose their livelihood. However, just like in most EU countries, farmers have political power, hence why some of the farmers can still have those "factories" poluting the country. Then again, UK farming is inefficient and fears losing the money it currently gets (looks as if the UK farmers are weak compared to their European counterparts).


The vast majority if European farming is inefficient. Also the ability for farmers to claim subsidy on crops grown for biogas and energy needs to stop.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:03 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Not just that, man, not just that. You are still believing in that the promised unicorns will finally come. Till then, you continue to blame the EU, I guess.



Oh forget the rebuttal to this from you,

It’s time to get off the merry go round of persistently saying I blame the EU for all problems in the UK

But please do show where I have blamed the EU on Brexit please


Now you blame the EU - being a vassal state - for not having trade deals of having lowering standards. It was the UK government that signed the divorce agreement.


How is stating a fact blaming the EU?

Until the 31st December what is going to happen if the UK lowers any of those standards before then, if a FTA was concluded next week with any third country can we trade on those new arrangements before the 31st December, can the EU parliament make new laws and can the UK ignore them, does the ECJ hold supremacy over the UK supreme court is overrule judgements made

Definition of a vassal state; A vassal state is any state that has a mutual obligation to a superior state or empire.

Is any of the above definition not applicable to the UK?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:44 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Oh forget the rebuttal to this from you,

It’s time to get off the merry go round of persistently saying I blame the EU for all problems in the UK

But please do show where I have blamed the EU on Brexit please


Now you blame the EU - being a vassal state - for not having trade deals of having lowering standards. It was the UK government that signed the divorce agreement.


How is stating a fact blaming the EU?

Until the 31st December what is going to happen if the UK lowers any of those standards before then, if a FTA was concluded next week with any third country can we trade on those new arrangements before the 31st December, can the EU parliament make new laws and can the UK ignore them, does the ECJ hold supremacy over the UK supreme court is overrule judgements made

Definition of a vassal state; A vassal state is any state that has a mutual obligation to a superior state or empire.

Is any of the above definition not applicable to the UK?


It is a bit melodramatic, I would say.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1951
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:54 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Now you blame the EU - being a vassal state - for not having trade deals of having lowering standards. It was the UK government that signed the divorce agreement.


How is stating a fact blaming the EU?

Until the 31st December what is going to happen if the UK lowers any of those standards before then, if a FTA was concluded next week with any third country can we trade on those new arrangements before the 31st December, can the EU parliament make new laws and can the UK ignore them, does the ECJ hold supremacy over the UK supreme court is overrule judgements made

Definition of a vassal state; A vassal state is any state that has a mutual obligation to a superior state or empire.

Is any of the above definition not applicable to the UK?


It is a bit melodramatic, I would say.


Is what I wrote wrong?
Have I blamed the EU?
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:30 am

Meanwhile France's Minister for European Affairs has gone out to annouce France sees the 31st December deadline as something self-imposed by the UK and they will not ratify any sort of a FTA before that date, unless it is fully meeting all demands…

in short: unless the UK signs on the dotted line of what is being presented soon by the EU, it will have to extend the transition period in order to negotiate seriously, or it will just have go over the cliff edge with nothing in its hands at all.
 
A101
Posts: 1951
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:48 am

sabenapilot wrote:
Meanwhile France's Minister for European Affairs has gone out to annouce France sees the 31st December deadline as something self-imposed by the UK and they will not ratify any sort of a FTA before that date, unless it is fully meeting all demands…

in short: unless the UK signs on the dotted line of what is being presented soon by the EU, it will have to extend the transition period in order to negotiate seriously, or it will just have go over the cliff edge with nothing in its hands at all.



Hopefully it’s no bluff too :yes:

No deal is better than a bad deal
 
bennett123
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:57 pm

Seahawk

Perhaps you can remind us what percentage of UK Govt expenditure goes to the EU?.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:26 pm

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Meanwhile France's Minister for European Affairs has gone out to annouce France sees the 31st December deadline as something self-imposed by the UK and they will not ratify any sort of a FTA before that date, unless it is fully meeting all demands…

in short: unless the UK signs on the dotted line of what is being presented soon by the EU, it will have to extend the transition period in order to negotiate seriously, or it will just have go over the cliff edge with nothing in its hands at all.



Hopefully it’s no bluff too :yes:

No deal is better than a bad deal


Because for a drowning man in a sinking ship no air is better than bad air, right...?! :roll:
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:41 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Seahawk

Perhaps you can remind us what percentage of UK Govt expenditure goes to the EU?.


The leave campaing has presented all these facts. It is time to deliver.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:32 pm

seahawk wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Seahawk

Perhaps you can remind us what percentage of UK Govt expenditure goes to the EU?.


The leave campaing has presented all these facts. It is time to deliver.


Global Britain?

Well, the blue passports will be made in Poland by a Dutch/French firm.

Image
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:59 pm

See, the UK still is able to trade with the EU.

The whole debate is pointless. During the next 12 months facts will replace arguments.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Seahawk

Perhaps you can remind us what percentage of UK Govt expenditure goes to the EU?.


The leave campaing has presented all these facts. It is time to deliver.


Global Britain?

Well, the blue passports will be made in Poland by a Dutch/French firm.

Image



Oh, the irony!
So under EU procurement rules, a Franco/Dutch company just won the contract to make the new British passport in Poland, for the next 11 years?!
"Taking back control" seems to yield its first success already,...

But wait: Brexit is a gift that keeps on giving!
If by the end of the year, there's no FTA in place between the EU and the UK, Brits will have to pay import duty on their own British passport. :D
 
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zkojq
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:41 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Talking about regulation divergence... The UK gov having failed to come up with their own list of areas of divergence from the EU, failed to find businesses asking for divergence, is now hoping the public is able to help.
https://www.ft.com/content/4b0d8310-435 ... 7a29cd66fe

Expect return of bendy bananas and cucumbers to be on top of the wishlist. :roll:


Time to un-outlaw playgrounds!

Arion640 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
You all forget we retain our soft empire, the commonwealth. We are never alone.


I know many, many people from various commonwealth countries.... don't hold your breath.

If anything, coming in as the ex-"colonial b***tards" is a hindrance.


That’s a highly offensive comment.


Do you need a safe space, mate?

sabenapilot wrote:
And you may add my own country to that list too.

The difference being however is that none of them dreams about somehow reviving it with them again at the center of the imperial hub, nor expect the former subjects overseas to somehow do them a favour 'for good old times sake'!

Those times weren't as good for them at all and whereas there's not necessarily any lust for revenge on their minds, they aren't particularly going to bend over backwards for some all too obvious sudden dishonest gallantry from a PM calling people from the Commonwealth piccaninnies either!

https://binged.it/2S1it1t



Well said. I remember a conversation from back in high school when one of my British friends said that India wanted to be ruled by Britain again. And he genuinely believed it. :banghead:

olle wrote:
Brexit timing with mr Trump in the white house? USA wants total surrender.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... minic-Raab


Not really a surprise. I wish the UK the best in these negotiations, but America isn't the friend that Britain seems to think it is.

Dutchy wrote:
Another sign of how big business sees Brexit.

The Brexit has already made a victim. Because BMW has decided to postpone the next generation Mini: for cost reasons and because of the uncertainty about the Brexit. The current Mini has been on the market since 2014 and therefore has to last for a while.

The United Kingdom left the European Union on Friday 31 January. Has that brought the uncertainty to an end? No! Everything will stay the same until the end of this year, but nobody knows what happens next. In the coming months, British and European politicians will have to sit down to reach a trade agreement. If they don't, the rules of the World Trade Organization will apply and there will be import tariffs, for example.

More production to Born
For manufacturers such as BMW, it is a difficult situation. As they do not know what the situation will be next year, they cannot make investments in the UK. "Suppose that import rates apply and that are between 0 and 5 percent, then our business case does not change very much," said BMW CEO Oliver Zipse. But if there are higher rates, then BMW will transfer the Mini production to Born in the Netherlands, where VDL Nedcar is already making the Mini hatchback, Cabrio, Countryman and BMW X1.


Fascinating. I didn't know that 1) not all Minis are made in Oxford and 2) that cars were still mass produced in the Netherlands. The things you learn in these Brexit threads!

LJ wrote:
Then agian, why do we bother? If the British think they have the upper hand, why not letting them believe it?


:checkmark: Well said. The Torygraph raising expectations for what the UK can get in a trade deal with the EU is only going to make Boris look incompetent when he gets a turd of a deal.

sabenapilot wrote:
Personally I'm waiting the first case where the ECHR hands a verdict down to the UK and the British press finds out much to its surprise the 2 are not the same indeed and Britain is still subjected to its rulings, because politicians haven't spent any time explaining this widespread misconception each time it got quoted by a Brexiteer as one of the advantages of Brexit to the point they even used it to their advantage by suggesting no more verdicts would come from European judges, also on matters which fall well outside of the ECJ competences yet well within the competence of the ECHR...this is wrong!


It will be entertaining to watch for sure.


sabenapilot wrote:

Don't spoil all the fun just yet, olddog... ;)

Nothing more pathetic than a blackmailer trying to blackmail you with something everybody knows already for a long time and has thus no more value... :)

Well said.

sabenapilot wrote:
It's by now getting truly pathetic how the UK has been seeking something to have the upper hand with in these negotiations for over 4 years now: let's just say that any sensible person would have come to the conclusion by now that since it hasn't been found, it probably just isnt there


But surely the German Car Industry is about to arrive late to the party and force the EU to fold to UK demands so that they can keep exporting to the UK! Nigel Farridge said they would!
First to fly the 787-9
 
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2004
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:56 pm

A101 wrote:

How is stating a fact blaming the EU?

Until the 31st December what is going to happen if the UK lowers any of those standards before then, if a FTA was concluded next week with any third country can we trade on those new arrangements before the 31st December, can the EU parliament make new laws and can the UK ignore them, does the ECJ hold supremacy over the UK supreme court is overrule judgements made

Definition of a vassal state; A vassal state is any state that has a mutual obligation to a superior state or empire.

Is any of the above definition not applicable to the UK?


Nope. Just another case of using a term without understanding what it means. Seems to be a trend with Brexiteers.

Singapore is not a vassal state of ASEAN.

Egypt is not a vassal state of the African Union.

Brazil is not a vassal state of MERCOSUR.

The UK is not a vassal state of NATO.

Germany and France and Austria and others are not vassal states. It’s absurd to suggest otherwise.

The whole vassal state thing, like the EU empire thing, suggests a level of tone-deafness not heard since Baghdad Bob grace our TVs. This EU “empire” hasn’t done anything remotely as dehumanizing and racist to the UK as the UK has done to the non-white regions of the world.

When one uses words without thinking, they lose all meaning.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:58 pm

seahawk wrote:
If the UK uses the money it wasted on the UK for investments in the UK, the economy will boom. The UK is stronger than ever, free and prosperous.


So you consider the marshall plan when usa invested huge amounts after the war as waste of money?

I consider that the richer areas of Europe has an obligation to invest in south and east Europe.

Why do you disagree to the very sucessfull policy? Poland as example has increased gdp by 400% and spain as well by a big amount since 1982. This have created big markets for example uk finance industry.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:01 pm

Mandate for Barnier agreed

Seems the 27 perfectly heard the brits moaning about LP and decided to tighten things a bit to be more to the point.
Signature censored
 
olle
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Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:14 pm

Olddog wrote:
Mandate for Barnier agreed

Seems the 27 perfectly heard the brits moaning about LP and decided to tighten things a bit to be more to the point.



So now EU can concentrate a few month on something more important like the budget and let UK fight internal a year or two over how to react to the EU surrender ;-)
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3286
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:27 pm

Olddog wrote:
Mandate for Barnier agreed

Seems the 27 perfectly heard the brits moaning about LP and decided to tighten things a bit to be more to the point.


Indeed, the final text of the paragraph refering to the LPF now reads as follows:
(bold text is newly added today and will be included in the final negotiating mandate which will be approved by ministers at the general affairs EU council of tomorrow)

The envisaged agreement should uphold the current common high standards, and corresponding high standards over time, with Union standards as reference point, in the areas of state aid, competition, state-owned enterprises, social and employment standards, environmental standards, climate change, relevant tax matters and other regulatory measures and practices in these areas.
The Union should have the possibility to apply autonomous measures to react quickly to disruptions of the equal conditions of competition in any of these relevant areas with Union standards as the reference point.


Bang, there you have it.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3058
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:50 pm

zkojq wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
Talking about regulation divergence... The UK gov having failed to come up with their own list of areas of divergence from the EU, failed to find businesses asking for divergence, is now hoping the public is able to help.
https://www.ft.com/content/4b0d8310-435 ... 7a29cd66fe

Expect return of bendy bananas and cucumbers to be on top of the wishlist. :roll:


Time to un-outlaw playgrounds!

Arion640 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:

I know many, many people from various commonwealth countries.... don't hold your breath.

If anything, coming in as the ex-"colonial b***tards" is a hindrance.


That’s a highly offensive comment.


Do you need a safe space, mate?

sabenapilot wrote:
And you may add my own country to that list too.

The difference being however is that none of them dreams about somehow reviving it with them again at the center of the imperial hub, nor expect the former subjects overseas to somehow do them a favour 'for good old times sake'!

Those times weren't as good for them at all and whereas there's not necessarily any lust for revenge on their minds, they aren't particularly going to bend over backwards for some all too obvious sudden dishonest gallantry from a PM calling people from the Commonwealth piccaninnies either!

https://binged.it/2S1it1t



Well said. I remember a conversation from back in high school when one of my British friends said that India wanted to be ruled by Britain again. And he genuinely believed it. :banghead:

olle wrote:
Brexit timing with mr Trump in the white house? USA wants total surrender.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... minic-Raab


Not really a surprise. I wish the UK the best in these negotiations, but America isn't the friend that Britain seems to think it is.

Dutchy wrote:
Another sign of how big business sees Brexit.

The Brexit has already made a victim. Because BMW has decided to postpone the next generation Mini: for cost reasons and because of the uncertainty about the Brexit. The current Mini has been on the market since 2014 and therefore has to last for a while.

The United Kingdom left the European Union on Friday 31 January. Has that brought the uncertainty to an end? No! Everything will stay the same until the end of this year, but nobody knows what happens next. In the coming months, British and European politicians will have to sit down to reach a trade agreement. If they don't, the rules of the World Trade Organization will apply and there will be import tariffs, for example.

More production to Born
For manufacturers such as BMW, it is a difficult situation. As they do not know what the situation will be next year, they cannot make investments in the UK. "Suppose that import rates apply and that are between 0 and 5 percent, then our business case does not change very much," said BMW CEO Oliver Zipse. But if there are higher rates, then BMW will transfer the Mini production to Born in the Netherlands, where VDL Nedcar is already making the Mini hatchback, Cabrio, Countryman and BMW X1.


Fascinating. I didn't know that 1) not all Minis are made in Oxford and 2) that cars were still mass produced in the Netherlands. The things you learn in these Brexit threads!

LJ wrote:
Then agian, why do we bother? If the British think they have the upper hand, why not letting them believe it?


:checkmark: Well said. The Torygraph raising expectations for what the UK can get in a trade deal with the EU is only going to make Boris look incompetent when he gets a turd of a deal.

sabenapilot wrote:
Personally I'm waiting the first case where the ECHR hands a verdict down to the UK and the British press finds out much to its surprise the 2 are not the same indeed and Britain is still subjected to its rulings, because politicians haven't spent any time explaining this widespread misconception each time it got quoted by a Brexiteer as one of the advantages of Brexit to the point they even used it to their advantage by suggesting no more verdicts would come from European judges, also on matters which fall well outside of the ECJ competences yet well within the competence of the ECHR...this is wrong!


It will be entertaining to watch for sure.


sabenapilot wrote:

Don't spoil all the fun just yet, olddog... ;)

Nothing more pathetic than a blackmailer trying to blackmail you with something everybody knows already for a long time and has thus no more value... :)

Well said.

sabenapilot wrote:
It's by now getting truly pathetic how the UK has been seeking something to have the upper hand with in these negotiations for over 4 years now: let's just say that any sensible person would have come to the conclusion by now that since it hasn't been found, it probably just isnt there


But surely the German Car Industry is about to arrive late to the party and force the EU to fold to UK demands so that they can keep exporting to the UK! Nigel Farridge said they would!


Yes please. I’m allowed that privilege.
 
A101
Posts: 1951
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:16 pm

ElPistolero wrote:

Nope. Just another case of using a term without understanding what it means. Seems to be a trend with Brexiteers.

Singapore is not a vassal state of ASEAN.

Egypt is not a vassal state of the African Union.

Brazil is not a vassal state of MERCOSUR.

The UK is not a vassal state of NATO.

Germany and France and Austria and others are not vassal states. It’s absurd to suggest otherwise.



When you compare the EU to all the other bodies listed it is only the EU that can make laws and has a supreme judicial system in which it affect member nations.

For instance the EU has a Parliament and Asean does not whilst.

Whilst the African Union has a Parliament (Pan-African Parliament) it is advisory only it cannot make binding regulations,

MERCOSUR has a Parliament known as Parlasur also cannot make any binding laws,

None of the above have have primacy over national law of independent nations unlike the EU, and its only the European Union that has the ECJ which has fairly broad powers in many aspects of national and local laws even down to the mundane of perhaps needing accident insurance whilst riding a lawn mover on private property.

As for NATO you really want to compare a defence treaty to supranational institutional instrument which uses its power to form laws, treaties etc with non member’s, good grief

As to Germany and France and Austria, yep they certainly are as well as they are also under yoke of supremacy of the EU over them. The only advantage that Germany/France have is now they are only two that are very influential within the EU



ElPistolero wrote:

The whole vassal state thing, like the EU empire thing, suggests a level of tone-deafness not heard since Baghdad Bob grace our TVs.


Go see Guy he will set you straight on the “Empire” thing


ElPistolero wrote:

This EU “empire” hasn’t done anything remotely as dehumanizing and racist to the UK as the UK has done to the non-white regions of the world.


Ah the good ship lollipop that the EU tries to espouse, in which you fail to recognise the colonial history of other members of the union besides the UK before the EU came into existence
 
A101
Posts: 1951
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:33 pm

Sabenapilot wrote:

Bang, there you have it.




Bang; what have you got..................a positional paper the UK will have one in a few days time too.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4090
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:41 am

All this history really is not related to Brexit. How about keeping more on topic?
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2004
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:00 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
All this history really is not related to Brexit. How about keeping more on topic?


But even that’s debatable, isn’t it? Brexit is a fascinating phenomenon even for those of us who disagree with it. Not least because - simplistic sloganeering notwithstanding - its the culmination of a number of societal changes and aspirations. How far back do these go? Who knows? But there are some interesting takes out there. Like this one.

https://www.spiegel.de/international/eu ... 70238.html
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3286
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:43 am

A101 wrote:
None of the above have have primacy over national law of independent nations unlike the EU, and its only the European Union that has the ECJ which has fairly broad powers in many aspects of national and local laws even down to the mundane of perhaps needing accident insurance whilst riding a lawn mover on private property.

As for NATO you really want to compare a defence treaty to supranational institutional instrument which uses its power to form laws, treaties etc with non member’s, good grief


Actually, why wouldn't you?

Look, there's no doubt the European Union is by far the most important and influential supranational organisation in the field of economic collaboration, despite not being the only such kind of an organistation out there and the reason for that is to be found in it's uniquely deep integration, which makes outsiders consider at it as one -rather than 27 diffferent- counter party, similar to how NATO is (designed to be) perceived as a monotithic defence bloc too by treaty: notably article 5 effectively does that, but it also means members have given up on some very important element of their national sovereignty too: i.e. that of opting to stay neutral in a military conflict in which they are no party!
I'd say the commitment to ultimately go to war over something which is in essence none of our business is a bit more far reaching than the obligation to take accident insurance for a lawn mower, even though I agree that in our day-to-day lives we luckily come accros the later more often, than we ever will with the former, but still... the transfer of this ultimate element of a nation's independent sovereignty has happened and is still very much out there, ready to be used.

To translate it to today: if Putin were to be willing to put his hand on a part of the Baltic states for instance, BoJo could not do what Chamberlain did in Munich and fly to Moscow to sign them away 'to respect the desire of the British people never to go to war again'. He'd be in Brussels the same day to put his signature under a very strong NATO statement laying down an ultimatum to Putin: I'd say that's a MASSIVE transfer in sovereign decision making of any government of a NATO country to the supranational structure of NATO as forseen by its treaty, don't you agree?

Shouldn't you be pulling out of NATO too then (there's an article to do so under the NATO treaty, and it reads remarkably similar to article 50 of the TEU, btw), to regain full military sovereignty, so you can take back control over military operations currently conducted on your behalf too, can stop the spending on unelected bureaucrats sitting in HQs near Brussels and to happily diverge on all common military production, training and operating standards now solely set by NATO so the UK's military and its industry could finally work together with emerging military powers like for instance the PRC too and become 'Global Britain'????
According to some in the Pentagon, this would be in line with Trump's thinking too (on some days at least...), so copy-pasting this 'strategy' would definitely help the UK in being fasttracked to become the 51st US State, an ambition that seems to be gaining mommentum in the minds of some, not at least the US born British PM. ;-)
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:25 am

olle wrote:
seahawk wrote:
If the UK uses the money it wasted on the UK for investments in the UK, the economy will boom. The UK is stronger than ever, free and prosperous.


So you consider the marshall plan when usa invested huge amounts after the war as waste of money?

I consider that the richer areas of Europe has an obligation to invest in south and east Europe.

Why do you disagree to the very sucessfull policy? Poland as example has increased gdp by 400% and spain as well by a big amount since 1982. This have created big markets for example uk finance industry.


Depends on your point of view. One can argue that the US created a strong partner or that the US created a strong opponent with the money. The same is true for the UK. While the other Eu countries became a market for the service industries, they also became a strong competitor for the manufacturing industries. So seen from the UK the advantage in economic strength and quality of life over Spain or Poland has eroded over time and if one is honest the UK looks worse than those countries in many places. So not only would the UK have been able to spent more money at home, the money would also not have been used to create competitors - a win win for the UK.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:20 am

Remember you need markets to sell your products in, so it's always much better in the long run if you have wealthy partners than poor partners: economic growth invariably brings more wealth and this will benefit all, at least if you have transmission policities in place to spread this wealth out with...

And that's where the problem occurs in many places in the western world these days, hence ordinary people turning against everything that could spur growth, opting for protectionist solutions instead which effectively keep them locked in their current state, forever.

It's really not the wealth engine that got broken, it's the transmission mechanism: the first is an economic one, the second a political one.
As such it's ironic we now see an array of mostly rightwing politicians trying to allegedely fix this problem by attacking the engine (through protectionism or Brexit), whereas reality is they should be having a good look at themselves and the way they have made sure all the fruits of decades of massive economic growth constantly fell in the hands of the happy few they are not surprisingly all part of in their country, all while pretending they are now standing sholder to sholder with ordinary people in their demands for justice and the fight against these elites who did all this.... and interestingly yet invariably remain unidentified throughout: never wonder why that is, btw?
Better to focus the naive's minds of the people on those evil foreign wrongdo-er (China, the EU and especially the eastern countries of it, ...), than on the real ones from within, isn' it, especially if they happen to be the long standing fat cats of the party in power. ;)
But you are right that the UK increasingly looks like an eastern-European country did, 30 years ago, in many of its places outside of London.
That has nothing to do with the EU however, but by the massive underfunding by the British Government... it's a political decision, taken at home, not to invest in itself, so more money was available for tax cuts for the happy few... a nice illustration of exactly what I have been saying above.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:38 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
https://www.thegwpf.com/european-green-deal-risks-breaking-eu-apart/

That’ll be a shame :)


yeah, its a shame those climate change deniers don´t get the medical attention they so desperately need.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:38 am

Well you are right we should withdraw from NATO, after it has accomplished it’s objective on why it was conceived in the first place. EU within the NATO alliance has been prosperous and stable for decades now collectively with a population of over 400mil and the second largest economy, you also have a nuclear armed member with France. it no longer needs the help for protection of the UK/US might as well throw Canada in that mix I’m sure Justin would be happy as well he will be able to buy up all of the RAAF’s Hornet fleet to keep his going.

Yeah maybe we should reinvigorate and return the East of Suez policy that way we can enhance and facilitate our expanding in Bahrain naval base at the same time we could rebuild the BPF. I’m sure those direct budget contributions to NATO could be redirected elsewhere.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:48 am

Back to the final version of the EU's negotiating mandate for the tradetalks with the UK which will be presented today, forcing the UK to catch up with the EU AGAIN, when it will announce its goals later this week...

It has just emerged that the 27 ambassadors to the EU have agreed last minute to add an entirely new clause in the negotiating mandate for Michel Barnier to "maintain health and product sanitary quality in the food and agriculture sector”, effectively demanding that the UK maintains a ban on chlorinated chicken.

This one will be an interesting one, because in the past the British government has maintained it had no intention to allow this production process in, although as of recently there has been some backsliding noticed in the explicit wording to underpin this lack of intention, as well as create a very wide split between UK farmers (who have been urging the British government to enshrine the EU standards in British law to protect them from US imports) and the British government who likes to pretend it stands up for British producers. Not to mention it will infuriate the US if the UK accepts anything remotely like this, as it will make all but impossible to include agriculture in any UK-US trade deal....

Will be interesting to see the British reaction to this shocker clause, as it puts the UK's government before a binary choice almost immediately and without any warning: either be seen to give in to the EU from the start and thus tone down the rethoric as from now... or be seen to commit a post-Brexit betrayal of British producers and British consumers and at the first instance already start the widely feared sell out of British interests to the US..
And so the UK's government is forcefully pushed into full defensive mode once again by the EU, right from the start, exactly as it has happened with the negotiations on the WA.
You have to give it to the EU: they are really good at this, even N. Farage admitted to it.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:26 pm

Official Mandate is here

We will see the UK mandate tomorrow and then it should be easy to guess the fighting points.
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:22 pm

Olddog wrote:
Official Mandate is here

We will see the UK mandate tomorrow and then it should be easy to guess the fighting points.


When UK mandate is published it will also interesting to look at intra-UK reactions. After all that will be the first time the government provides details on the future relationship it is seeking with EU.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:33 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
Official Mandate is here

We will see the UK mandate tomorrow and then it should be easy to guess the fighting points.


When UK mandate is published it will also interesting to look at intra-UK reactions. After all that will be the first time the government provides details on the future relationship it is seeking with EU.


Details? I expect the same kind of unicorns and me me me the UK has been demanding the whole time.

If I don't get it it's all your fault.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:35 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Oh forget the rebuttal to this from you,

It’s time to get off the merry go round of persistently saying I blame the EU for all problems in the UK

But please do show where I have blamed the EU on Brexit please


Now you blame the EU - being a vassal state - for not having trade deals of having lowering standards. It was the UK government that signed the divorce agreement.


How is stating a fact blaming the EU?

Until the 31st December what is going to happen if the UK lowers any of those standards before then, if a FTA was concluded next week with any third country can we trade on those new arrangements before the 31st December, can the EU parliament make new laws and can the UK ignore them, does the ECJ hold supremacy over the UK supreme court is overrule judgements made

Definition of a vassal state; A vassal state is any state that has a mutual obligation to a superior state or empire.

Is any of the above definition not applicable to the UK?


How do you then consider commonwealth with an unelected queen?

Why did not the UK parliament directly dissolve the brittish empire?

As I remember it neather USA nor India was allowed to leave in anything near the brexit vote but needed a war and uprisings with hundred or thousends dead...

Even in the darfour declaration for a future palestina Israel the local population was not even invited in major decisions.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:39 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Will be interesting to see the British reaction to this shocker clause, as it puts the UK's government before a binary choice almost immediately and without any warning

There have been plenty of warnings all along the whole Brexit process: The EU has never left any doubt about its priorities; The UK government openly trying to weasel out of the commitments it had already officially made has just firmed up the EU's overt language, which would normally not have been necessary with a government possessing at least a modicum of trustworthiness.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:18 pm

JJJ wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
Official Mandate is here

We will see the UK mandate tomorrow and then it should be easy to guess the fighting points.


When UK mandate is published it will also interesting to look at intra-UK reactions. After all that will be the first time the government provides details on the future relationship it is seeking with EU.


Details? I expect the same kind of unicorns and me me me the UK has been demanding the whole time.

If I don't get it it's all your fault.


You are right, I'm being naive. :angel:
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:36 pm

Klaus wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Will be interesting to see the British reaction to this shocker clause, as it puts the UK's government before a binary choice almost immediately and without any warning

There have been plenty of warnings all along the whole Brexit process: The EU has never left any doubt about its priorities; The UK government openly trying to weasel out of the commitments it had already officially made has just firmed up the EU's overt language, which would normally not have been necessary with a government possessing at least a modicum of trustworthiness.



I have the the same impression. Express, the sun writing on behalf of the UK government over and over again how easy UK masterminds will control the negotiations. This was the case of A50 negotiations and now this repeats fot the FTA.

The repeatly there comes the cold shower like now when EU openly shows its negotiation positions. Now they say that Barnier and the EU has defined this and forgets that Barnier follow the instructions of the EU27 governments.

The next cold shower is in june july when UK government will need to tell if UK needs another extension, this time costing money without rebates or if UK goverment want to take the risk that the wet brexit dream of WTO want to be tested.


A few moments of truth is on its way, and it will go faster then we can imagine.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:19 pm

A101 wrote:
. wrote:

Or perhaps I mistakenly assumed a higher level of intellectual accuity.



Oh the elitism rearing it’s ugly head once again



Nothing elitist about knowing that throwing the good deal we had as an EU member away to replace it with wishy-washy contradictory dimwitted slogans & uncertainty is foolish. We're not a vassalage either.

Still waiting for those promised unicorns from the "brexiteering elite".....
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:55 pm

So to work out some of the cob webs, the EU is saying that the bulk of the UK fish products are exported to the EU, therefore the EU should be allowed to obtain those products using their boats in UK waters, this is one of the items that is non-negotiable.
I would have thought the the UK would have its fishermen do all the fishing then export to the EU, sort of like needing to start re-building industries.
What I don't get is why this is so important when the size of the industry is minimal.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -plan.html
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:58 pm

par13del wrote:
So to work out some of the cob webs, the EU is saying that the bulk of the UK fish products are exported to the EU, therefore the EU should be allowed to obtain those products using their boats in UK waters, this is one of the items that is non-negotiable.
I would have thought the the UK would have its fishermen do all the fishing then export to the EU, sort of like needing to start re-building industries.
What I don't get is why this is so important when the size of the industry is minimal.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -plan.html


Voters in France, Spain etc.

Macron see that Brexit can be very nice for his political career. Fishing, financial industry, migrant camp moved to UK....
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1504
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:11 pm

The problem is that the fishing quotas are mainly allocated just to a handful of huge boats, far from the small trawler often portrayed. And that The fishes caught in the UK waters are at 80% not eaten by the brits but on the continent.

Read that rather balanced article
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tommy1808
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:22 pm

par13del wrote:
What I don't get is why this is so important when the size of the industry is minimal.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -plan.html


~30% of all UK fishing quotas are owned by just five wealthy UK families, including fishing companies they partly or fully own 37%, another ~30% spread over just 20 more companies.

Would be interesting to see who they donate money to. Half of those businesses are fairly criminal, so "bribes" is the obvious answer. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-no ... d-17153085

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:22 pm

So the best for the fish would be only UK fishing boats meaning for UK market only.

15 years would mean dramatic increased stock...
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:32 pm

olle wrote:
So the best for the fish would be only UK fishing boats meaning for UK market only.


That would mean that the British change their eating habbits as they import the fish they eat and export the fish they don't like.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1504
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:46 pm

We may have the return of the scallop war :)

While a bit ridiculous, it produces at least interesting images.
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tommy1808
Posts: 12875
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:20 pm

Olddog wrote:
We may have the return of the scallop war :)

While a bit ridiculous, it produces at least interesting images.


Seems to be a Brit thing...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_Wars

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Klaus
Posts: 21556
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:39 pm

Newsflash: UK government insisting on unfairly tilting the playing field towards the UK, shocked to find out the EU isn't actually keen on letting that happen:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rade-offer

“We agree the UK’s trade with the EU is significant. The US’s [trade] is on the same scale – yet that did not stop the EU being willing to offer the US zero tariffs without the kind of level playing field commitments or the legal oversight they have put in today’s mandate.”

The EU’s mandate stated that any future relationship with the UK should be “underpinned by robust commitments to ensure a level playing field for open and fair competition, given the EU and the UK’s geographic proximity and economic interdependence”. This accords with the political declaration signed by both parties when Brexit took place.


Well, as we've discussed earlier in this thread, it does make a difference:

a) how big you are (the UK is actually not equivalent to the USA in negotiating weight, nor to the EU for that matter!)

b) how close you are (a whole ocean in between is already enough of a trade impediment to be more lenient on additional ones, while the mere channel isn't)

"But, but... we promised our people unicorns! And its your job to deliver them for us!"

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