Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

par13del · Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:56 pm

bennett123 wrote:
'The US has also specified it wants to be able to veto the UK's ability to strike deals with "non-market economies" meaning the likes of China'.

I thought that the whole point of leaving the EU was to regain national sovereignty.

If we agree this, then we are little better than a US colony.

Well if the US Supreme court becomes the highest court in the land you may be able to deal more harshly with all the knife crime, more options to deal with white collar crime.....
...and its a state not a colony, probably the 54th or some such.

Klaus · Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:04 pm

par13del wrote:
Well if the US Supreme court becomes the highest court in the land you may be able to deal more harshly with all the knife crime, more options to deal with white collar crime.....
...and its a state not a colony, probably the 54th or some such.

There is absolutely zero chance of statehood with voting rights – the only thing available is becoming a voteless dependency of the USA as well.

Nothing remotely as privileged and as influential as EU membership had been.

sabenapilot · Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:47 am

So just over one month after Brexit, we are already starting to see clearer on what all those future British trade deals will probably have to look like if they want to be struck...

EU: demands guarantees on LPF (also in future) and sees a role for the ECJ in interpreting these LPF rules, since they are essentially EU rules

Luckily the EU deal is said by Brexiteers to be the easiest in history,
because it seems the few other ones which have been discussed already by the British governement aren't going to go down nearly as smoothly as they once hoped, at all!

US: demands a veto over any other future British trade deal
India: demands VISA free travel for its citizens
Japan: reportedly contemplating demanding the UK compensates Japanese firms for any shortfall vs what trade with the UK under the FTA with the EU would have brought them...

Taking back control of laws, money and borders, right?
ROTFL

A101 · Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:27 am

sabenapilot wrote:
So just over one month after Brexit, we are already starting to see clearer on what all those future British trade deals will probably have to look like if they want to be struck...

EU: demands guarantees on LPF (also in future) and sees a role for the ECJ in interpreting these LPF rules, since they are essentially EU rules

Luckily the EU deal is said by Brexiteers to be the easiest in history,
because it seems the few other ones which have been discussed already by the British governement aren't going to go down nearly as smoothly as they once hoped, at all!

US: demands a veto over any other future British trade deal
India: demands VISA free travel for its citizens
Japan: reportedly contemplating demanding the UK compensates Japanese firms for any shortfall vs what trade with the UK under the FTA with the EU would have brought them...

Taking back control of laws, money and borders, right?
ROTFL

Mmmm don’t see any deals done yet do you?

Why don’t you calm down and wait till a deal is signed and then have your melt down, as you just come across as a crazy remainer who can’t cope with the result.

JJJ · Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:13 am

A101 wrote:

Mmmm don’t see any deals done yet do you?

Why don’t you calm down and wait till a deal is signed and then have your melt down, as you just come across as a crazy remainer who can’t cope with the result.

So no comment on your earlier statements about trade deals not needing to go beyond trade, the EU is asking for too much, etc.?

sabenapilot · Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:15 am

A101 wrote:
you just come across as a crazy remainer who can’t cope with the result.

Luckily you previously informed us you don't hate people you haven't met yet…

Thanks for your kind words then, I suppose I should say.

As a European, I can cope with the British decision to shoot themselves in both feet now even, after having fired at the first foot already…
It doesn't mean I may not be astonished by the dogmatic determination to add insult over self-inflicted injury, does it?

But you're right: the best is yet to come, so we shouldn't eat all the popcorn during the viewing of what are just the trailers yet

Any comment on the estimated 0.16% GDP growth from any US deal by the mid 2030s (so 0,01% annually) that is to be expected at best, going by the estimations of the British goverment?
I thought Brexiteers repeatedly claimed this to be one of the bigger economic advantages of Brexit…it should tell you a lot about either their professional judgements then, or about just how little the other advantages are going to turn out to be….

94717 · Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:26 am

sabenapilot wrote:
A101 wrote:
you just come across as a crazy remainer who can’t cope with the result.

Luckily you previously informed us you don't hate people you haven't met yet…
Thanks for your kind words then, I suppose I should say.

As a European, I can cope with the British decision to shoot themselves in both feet now even, after having fired at the first foot already…
It doesn't mean I may not be astonished by the dogmatic determination to add insult over self-inflicted injury, does it?

But you're right: the best is yet to come, so we shouldn't eat all the popcorn during the viewing of what are just the trailers yet

Any comment on the estimated 0.16% GDP growth from any US deal by the mid 2030s (so 0,01% annually) that is to be expected at best, going by the estimations of the British goverment?
I thought Brexiteers repeatedly claimed this to be one of the bigger economic advantages of Brexit…it should tell you a lot about either their professional judgements then, or about just how little the other advantages are going to turn out to be….

What is interesting is the estimates for financial services is negative numbers.

It can even get close to 0 depending of what kind of FTA UK USA finally agree about.

tommy1808 · Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:26 am

sabenapilot wrote:
A101 wrote:
you just come across as a crazy remainer who can’t cope with the result.

As a European, I can cope with the British decision to shoot themselves in both feet now even.......
Any comment on the estimated 0.16% GDP growth from any US deal by the mid 2030s (so 0,01% annually) that is to be expected at best

i can life with it very well, because those 5 to 7% GDP will spread across the EU for a large part...... the average EU country may see much more benefit from that move then the UK for their new US FTA...

That is quite hilarious..

best regards
Thomas

94717 · Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:27 am

If this is a war that someone described it here it UK government seems to act similar to a Hitler in the bunker...

Olddog · Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:09 am

Well they had at least a "patriotic breakfast" to help them breeze thru the negotiations

A101 · Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:15 am

JJJ wrote:

So no comment on your earlier statements about trade deals not needing to go beyond trade, the EU is asking for too much, etc.?

Well I actually thought about it but thought the better of it as the thread has just turned into Groundhog Day and is getting very boring.

A101 · Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:17 am

Sabenapilot wrote:

Luckily you previously informed us you don't hate people you haven't met yet…

No I haven’t meet you and I haven’t said I hate you either, just think you are going overboard and comment on everything thing that either the EU does or any other nations says that some how the UK will just put our hands and say we give up.

Sabenapilot wrote:

Any comment on the estimated 0.16% GDP growth from any US deal by the mid 2030s (so 0,01% annually) that is to be expected at best, going by the estimations of the British goverment?

Better than I kick up the bum. It’s all speculative. We trade with the USA under majority of WTO rules anyway so growth was going to be up just under the trade relationship bringing down any tariffs. Remember it’s majority of free enterprise that actually does most of the trade between nations except for government procurement

Sabenapilot wrote:
I thought Brexiteers repeatedly claimed this to be one of the bigger economic advantages of Brexit…it should tell you a lot about either their professional judgements then, or about just how little the other advantages are going to turn out to be….

Yes it can be a bigger economic advantage if our trade continues to increase with other third nations and our exports to the EU continue to fall. It’s up to industry to take advantage of the FTA where they can, it’s the governments job to get the best deal it can.

If the deal is not advantageous we will just remain in the status quo with the USA. The EU on the other hand is not just about trade and you know it but you don’t acknowledge it because it’s not what you want to hear.

Reinhardt · Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:16 am

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
So just over one month after Brexit, we are already starting to see clearer on what all those future British trade deals will probably have to look like if they want to be struck...

EU: demands guarantees on LPF (also in future) and sees a role for the ECJ in interpreting these LPF rules, since they are essentially EU rules

Luckily the EU deal is said by Brexiteers to be the easiest in history,
because it seems the few other ones which have been discussed already by the British governement aren't going to go down nearly as smoothly as they once hoped, at all!

US: demands a veto over any other future British trade deal
India: demands VISA free travel for its citizens
Japan: reportedly contemplating demanding the UK compensates Japanese firms for any shortfall vs what trade with the UK under the FTA with the EU would have brought them...

Taking back control of laws, money and borders, right?
ROTFL

Mmmm don’t see any deals done yet do you?

Why don’t you calm down and wait till a deal is signed and then have your melt down, as you just come across as a crazy remainer who can’t cope with the result.

But half of the figures released yesterday about what the UK can expect from trade deals, are exactly that - the Govenments expectations. Surely they are a best case scenario? In which case, they're shi* And sabenapilot and every other "crazy remainer" like me has every right to call it what it is.

Yes we indeed know for sure when the deals are negotiated or done. But it's hardly encouraging is it?

tommy1808 · Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:23 am

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

So no comment on your earlier statements about trade deals not needing to go beyond trade, the EU is asking for too much, etc.?

Well I actually thought about it but thought the better of it as the thread has just turned into Groundhog Day and is getting very boring.

Yup, it gets boring to see every day that remainers where absolutely right on absolutely everything and brexiteers where absolutely wrong about absolutely everything.

Gets boring in deed.

Best regards
Thomas

ElPistolero · Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:58 pm

A101 wrote:
Sabenapilot wrote:

Luckily you previously informed us you don't hate people you haven't met yet…

No I haven’t meet you and I haven’t said I hate you either, just think you are going overboard and comment on everything thing that either the EU does or any other nations says that some how the UK will just put our hands and say we give up.

Sabenapilot wrote:

Any comment on the estimated 0.16% GDP growth from any US deal by the mid 2030s (so 0,01% annually) that is to be expected at best, going by the estimations of the British goverment?

Better than I kick up the bum. It’s all speculative. We trade with the USA under majority of WTO rules anyway so growth was going to be up just under the trade relationship bringing down any tariffs. Remember it’s majority of free enterprise that actually does most of the trade between nations except for government procurement

Sabenapilot wrote:
I thought Brexiteers repeatedly claimed this to be one of the bigger economic advantages of Brexit…it should tell you a lot about either their professional judgements then, or about just how little the other advantages are going to turn out to be….

Yes it can be a bigger economic advantage if our trade continues to increase with other third nations and our exports to the EU continue to fall. It’s up to industry to take advantage of the FTA where they can, it’s the governments job to get the best deal it can.

If the deal is not advantageous we will just remain in the status quo with the USA. The EU on the other hand is not just about trade and you know it but you don’t acknowledge it because it’s not what you want to hear.

Sure it’s speculative. It also highlights some realities of trade:

- Geography matters. This ‘speculative’ US-UK trade will facilitate a $20B increase in trade flow. For perspective, Canada and the US will conduct trade worth $20B in just 10 calendar days despite the fact that Canada’s population is ~50% of the UK’s.

- The “trade with non-market economy” poison pill is going to be a feature in any FTA the US signs going forward. It’s already in the USMCA. The precedent is set. More importantly, it has bipartisan support. It is less a political issue than a US industrial heartland popular demand.

- While it is absolutely true that the UK can walk away from bad deals, let’s put this in perspective. We may soon enter a weird world where the UK will end up with Australia-style trade deal with the EU + status quo trade deal with the US, while the Australians have managed to negotiate an FTA with the US and Canada has managed to negotiate FTAs with both the EU and the US. What’s the narrative going to be then? That Australia and Canada, like EU nations, are not actually sovereign states? Or that everyone thinks they have the upper hand in negotiations with the UK which, it turns out, doesn’t have the clout it thinks it does?

sabenapilot · Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:20 pm

A101 wrote:
Yes it can be a bigger economic advantage (...) It’s up to industry to take advantage of the FTA where they can, it’s the governments job to get the best deal it can.

So if Brexit turns out not to be the stellar success widely promissed by Brexiteers and there's no dividend from it to be reaped ever, then it's really not the fault of all those who pushed hard for Brexit and made sure the UK went for the purest form of it: it's going to be the fault of all those ordinary people and of hardworking businesses for not trying hard enough then, right?

If that's not a textbook example of the thinking by a dogmatic fundamentalist ideologist, then I don't know what it is!
In short: the theory is never ever fundamentally wrong, it's just the putting in praxis which was done badly by a bunch of incompetent 'losers'...
There's a guy in the DPRK who's having his own people shot on the very same grounds whenever they fail to achieve the unachievable!

You are a die-hard true believer in a pure Brexit for sure, but as I've told you before, a whole lot of people in the UK who voted with you and tipped the balance of the referendum result towards the 52%/48% end result, aren't: they voted like you because they believed in all the stories about the Brexit dividend that was going to come their way to be used on their urgents needs.
Soon they'll come by to cash in as promissed, and when they find out there's no money for them at all (or only borrowed money), the moment of reckoning is going to happen.

tommy1808 · Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:25 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
If that's not a textbook example of the thinking by a dogmatic fundamentalist ideologist, then I don't know what it is!
So the theory is never wrong, it's just the putting in praxis which was done wrongly by 'losers', then....
There's a guy in the DPRK who's having people shot on the same grounds! .

just like in the USSR: Reality had conform to doctine.

best regards
Thomas

sabenapilot · Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:30 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
If that's not a textbook example of the thinking by a dogmatic fundamentalist ideologist, then I don't know what it is!
So the theory is never wrong, it's just the putting in praxis which was done wrongly by 'losers', then....
There's a guy in the DPRK who's having people shot on the same grounds! .

just like in the USSR: Reality had conform to doctine.

best regards
Thomas

Well, we pretty much new Brexiteers have always been totally obsessed with the Soviet Union and the way it failed to work properly, haven't we?
They looked for it everywhere in Europe's dealings, but ironically failed to spot it in their very own thinking!

sabenapilot · Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:17 pm

The French industrial holding company and Vauxhall owner PSA has clearly been informed (by the French Government?) about the officially confidential content of the UK-Nissan deal, because its CEO made an interesting comment today.

"In case trade negotiations between the UK and the EU do not yield a FTA, the pure business case for the Vauxhall plants in Ellesmere Port and Luton is questionable."
And then it comes:
"The manufacturer could ask the British government to compensate it for the cost of any trade barriers going up; should the financial numbers not match up, significant social issues for the country will arise."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ium-europe

A101 · Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:48 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

So no comment on your earlier statements about trade deals not needing to go beyond trade, the EU is asking for too much, etc.?

Well I actually thought about it but thought the better of it as the thread has just turned into Groundhog Day and is getting very boring.

Yup, it gets boring to see every day that remainers where absolutely right on absolutely everything and brexiteers where absolutely wrong about absolutely everything.

Gets boring in deed.

Best regards
Thomas

Yes the thread is getting boring

I alway knew exports was going to be impacted with the EU as were imports from the EU. You keep looking at one aspect and that’s trade. Because of past policy over the last 40 years our manufacturing base has declined it’s never going to return to the hey days of yesteryears we are always going to be dependent on imports Brexit just means we will reduce our reliance on the EU I’m all for that more competition and hopefully less barriers between third countries imports and the EU.

JJJ · Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:41 am

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:

Well I actually thought about it but thought the better of it as the thread has just turned into Groundhog Day and is getting very boring.

Yup, it gets boring to see every day that remainers where absolutely right on absolutely everything and brexiteers where absolutely wrong about absolutely everything.

Gets boring in deed.

Best regards
Thomas

Yes the thread is getting boring

I alway knew exports was going to be impacted with the EU as were imports from the EU. You keep looking at one aspect and that’s trade. Because of past policy over the last 40 years our manufacturing base has declined it’s never going to return to the hey days of yesteryears we are always going to be dependent on imports Brexit just means we will reduce our reliance on the EU I’m all for that more competition and hopefully less barriers between third countries imports and the EU.

Those barriers are lifted at the expense of sovereignty. Be it vs the EU or anyone else.

That should be the key takeaway of the last few days for UK trade negotiators. If you aren't willing to put meat on the negotiation table you won't get very far.

sabenapilot · Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:28 am

A101 wrote:
I alway knew exports was going to be impacted with the EU as were imports from the EU. You keep looking at one aspect and that’s trade. Because of past policy over the last 40 years our manufacturing base has declined it’s never going to return to the hey days of yesteryears we are always going to be dependent on imports Brexit just means we will reduce our reliance on the EU I’m all for that more competition and hopefully less barriers between third countries imports and the EU.

The point of banging on about trade is that not everybody who voted for Brexit shares your liberal views on it: many ordinary people voted for Brexit out of a protectionist reflex in fact, so they are effectively going to get exactly the opposite of what they had hoped they were going to get then.

THAT is the key issue you systematically refuse to address: you're obviously willing to pay whatever price is needed to regain that illusive idea of complete sovereignty; others who voted just like you may or may not be ready to do so however.
But you -nor any other brexiteer- care about that now do you, because those 'useful idiots' have lost control over their own destiny anyway.
ALL voted to give a blank check to the British government in the naive belief that Brexit would lead to a massive win in their daily lives, which it clearly won't (quite on the contrary even) if going by that Government's own estimates now....

I know ordinary Brits are very resilient people, tolerating a lot from their posh and out-of-touch multimillionaire leaders adorned with noble titles and styles, but at some point even BoJo can't keep telling them this is still what they've voted for: the day of reckoning for Brexit will come too, you know? And going by the economic estimations that are slowly emerging, it will be quite a brutal awakening.

ChrisKen · Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:07 am

A101 wrote:
Yes it can be a bigger economic advantage (...) It’s up to industry to take advantage of the FTA where they can, it’s the governments job to get the best deal it can.

The best deal it could do was remain. Any other deal pails into insignificance. Brexit was a con. You fell for it, you still can't see it. We'll now have years of brexiteers blaming everyone bar themselves because it didn't work out anything remotely like it was advertised too.

Dutchy · Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:17 am

sabenapilot wrote:
THAT is the key issue you systematically refuse to address: you're obviously willing to pay whatever price is needed to regain that illusive idea of complete sovereignty; others who voted just like you may or may not be ready to do so however.

That's the thing to remember with A101, his kids live in Australia and he is going to move there. So he isn't the one paying, others are. A crucial difference.

A101 · Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:13 am

Sabenaplilot wrote:

The point of banging on about trade is that not everybody who voted for Brexit shares your liberal views

And you can’t say for certain how many do share my views, and when I post I only share my own views

Sabenaplilot wrote:

many ordinary people voted for Brexit out of a protectionist reflex in fact, so they are effectively going to get exactly the opposite of what they had hoped they were going to get then.

It would be interesting to see how you came to that conclusion

Sabenaplilot wrote:

But you -nor any other brexiteer- care about that now do you, because those 'useful idiots' have lost control over their own destiny anyway.

We never had control of it except to exercise our right to vote, Gina Miller is a good example and living proof of that.

Sabenaplilot wrote:

ALL voted to give a blank check to the British government in the naive belief that Brexit would lead to a massive win in their daily lives, which it clearly won't (quite on the contrary even) if going by that Government's own estimates now....

Of course that’s what the TEU/A50 provides for do you believe whoever PM was in power his/her beliefs would have been not front and centre to the eventual outcome, do you really think the current WA would be the same if Johnson was made PM after Cameron

Sabenaplilot wrote:

I know ordinary Brits are very resilient people, tolerating a lot from their posh and out-of-touch multimillionaire leaders adorned with noble titles and styles, but at some point even BoJo can't keep telling them this is still what they've voted for:

Every PM has a used by date, some might continue beyond due the opposition

Sabenaplilot wrote:
the day of reckoning for Brexit will come too, you know?

Again with the predictions, wonders may never cease

A101 · Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:17 am

ChrisKen wrote:
A101 wrote:
Yes it can be a bigger economic advantage (...) It’s up to industry to take advantage of the FTA where they can, it’s the governments job to get the best deal it can.

The best deal it could do was remain. Any other deal pails into insignificance. Brexit was a con. You fell for it, you still can't see it. We'll now have years of brexiteers blaming everyone bar themselves because it didn't work out anything remotely like it was advertised too.

Until I know what the final future relationship looks like I will let you know, but so far I’m a happy little vegimite, I’ve got what I wanted and that’s out of the EU

frmrCapCadet · Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:36 pm

At bottom my original worry is that Putin is the only winner, and he may have been the cause. Weaken Europe, weaken NATO, destroy the US hegemony, prevail in Syria, the agents of all of this may have been conscious and part of Putin's plan, or maybe just stooge parts.

Dutchy · Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:50 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
At bottom my original worry is that Putin is the only winner, and he may have been the cause. Weaken Europe, weaken NATO, destroy the US hegemony, prevail in Syria, the agents of all of this may have been conscious and part of Putin's plan, or maybe just stooge parts.

We let him do this indeed. Our open liberal democracies are vulnerable to this external abuse. It is the responsibility of each and everyone to educate ourselves and not to believe everything you hear and see.

tommy1808 · Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:52 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
At bottom my original worry is that Putin is the only winner, and he may have been the cause. Weaken Europe, weaken NATO, destroy the US hegemony, prevail in Syria, the agents of all of this may have been conscious and part of Putin's plan, or maybe just stooge parts.

I think the UK did well with sabotaging PD50, too bad they couldn't arrange that it took the carrier down with it. .... but way too measured for a WMD attack.
We need to do more of that, instead of all the appeasement Putin is getting.

Best regards
Thomas

Dutchy · Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:55 pm

A101 wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
A101 wrote:
Yes it can be a bigger economic advantage (...) It’s up to industry to take advantage of the FTA where they can, it’s the governments job to get the best deal it can.

The best deal it could do was remain. Any other deal pails into insignificance. Brexit was a con. You fell for it, you still can't see it. We'll now have years of brexiteers blaming everyone bar themselves because it didn't work out anything remotely like it was advertised too.

Until I know what the final future relationship looks like I will let you know, but so far I’m a happy little vegimite, I’ve got what I wanted and that’s out of the EU

Yes, you've got what you wanted and you didn't care about the price paid and especially by who it is going to be paid.

Per definition, the best deal the UK could ever have is zero tariffs and unlimited access to the internal EU market, the biggest market on their doorstep. And above that, the UK had all kinds of exemptions. So you do not need to wait for the future relationship to become clear, it will always be worse then what you had.

But economics wasn't the reason for you to want a Brexit, right? Because we have long ago established that that argument is complete and utter bull.

tommy1808 · Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:45 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:

The best deal it could do was remain. Any other deal pails into insignificance. Brexit was a con. You fell for it, you still can't see it. We'll now have years of brexiteers blaming everyone bar themselves because it didn't work out anything remotely like it was advertised too.

Until I know what the final future relationship looks like I will let you know, but so far I’m a happy little vegimite, I’ve got what I wanted and that’s out of the EU

Yes, you've got what you wanted and you didn't care about the price paid and especially by who it is going to be paid.

Per definition, the best deal the UK could ever have is zero tariffs and unlimited access to the internal EU market, the biggest market on their doorstep. And above that, the UK had all kinds of exemptions. So you do not need to wait for the future relationship to become clear, it will always be worse then what you had.

But economics wasn't the reason for you to want a Brexit, right? Because we have long ago established that that argument is complete and utter bull.

It's funny how all what's left of "it's going to be the easiest trade deals and much better than what we have via the EU" is "Ah, there isn't an agreement yet, I am not going to day how bad it is until I can see them".

I mean "we are free to make whatever trade deal we want, because souveranity!" turned into "no trade deals, unless we can veto other trade deals" with zero say or vote on that matter.

Best regards
Thomas

94717 · Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:16 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
At bottom my original worry is that Putin is the only winner, and he may have been the cause. Weaken Europe, weaken NATO, destroy the US hegemony, prevail in Syria, the agents of all of this may have been conscious and part of Putin's plan, or maybe just stooge parts.

Putin succed to extend his rule, but russia need to get closer to world markets to sell more then oil and gas.

This win has cost russia dearly.

seahawk · Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:27 pm

Trade is not everything, there are other values like freedom that matter.

A101 · Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:06 pm

seahawk wrote:
Trade is not everything, there are other values like freedom that matter.

Yep more freedom of autonomy from the EU was a huge selling point for myself.

Dutchy · Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:50 pm

A101 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Trade is not everything, there are other values like freedom that matter.

Yep more freedom of autonomy from the EU was a huge selling point for myself.

And still, you can't really name five things which should be different in the UK, now you are out. Very good to have autonomy, but the Brits are less free, they can't just pack their things and move anywhere in the EU or many other advantages the EU offers.

It is such a nice argument on the service, think for one minute about what it really entitles and it all falls apart.

A101 · Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Very good to have autonomy, but the Brits are less free, they can't just pack their things and move anywhere in the EU or many other advantages the EU offers.

Yeah I haven’t said there wasn’t any advantages being in the EU but from my point of view the I’d rather autonomy over free movement with the continent. while it might be more restrictive it’s not like they can’t do it either

Dutchy wrote:
It is such a nice argument on the service, think for one minute about what it really entitles and it all falls apart.

Autonomy means we do things solely in the interests of the UK, I’m quite happy for other nations to decide what’s in its best interests of their own nation I’m not going to talk down others who have voted a particular way, I wish them the best.

Dutchy · Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:23 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Very good to have autonomy, but the Brits are less free, they can't just pack their things and move anywhere in the EU or many other advantages the EU offers.

Yeah I haven’t said there wasn’t any advantages being in the EU but from my point of view the I’d rather autonomy over free movement with the continent. while it might be more restrictive it’s not like they can’t do it either

Dutchy wrote:
It is such a nice argument on the surface, think for one minute about what it really entitles and it all falls apart.

Autonomy means we do things solely in the interests of the UK, I’m quite happy for other nations to decide what’s in its best interests of their own nation I’m not going to talk down others who have voted a particular way, I wish them the best.

You are forgetting about the emergent properties of larger bodies. And. you still fail to mention things the UK can now do which it couldn't while being in the EU.

A101 · Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:49 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Very good to have autonomy, but the Brits are less free, they can't just pack their things and move anywhere in the EU or many other advantages the EU offers.

Yeah I haven’t said there wasn’t any advantages being in the EU but from my point of view the I’d rather autonomy over free movement with the continent. while it might be more restrictive it’s not like they can’t do it either

Dutchy wrote:
It is such a nice argument on the surface, think for one minute about what it really entitles and it all falls apart.

Autonomy means we do things solely in the interests of the UK, I’m quite happy for other nations to decide what’s in its best interests of their own nation I’m not going to talk down others who have voted a particular way, I wish them the best.

You are forgetting about the emergent properties of larger bodies. And. you still fail to mention things the UK can now do which it couldn't while being in the EU.

I’m not forgetting anything, it’s up to government on what it will compromise on or not, the average Tom, dick & Harriet actully has no say in that nor does parliament as it can only approve the treaty or not

Dutchy wrote:
And. you still fail to mention things the UK can now do which it couldn't while being in the EU.

We can’t do anything different now as we are still in vassalage, come the 1st January the legislative law of the UK won’t differ to what they are now greatly untill parliament actully make changes to the laws which will take time, once the government knows if an agreement with the EU has been agreed on the UKGov will then set its legislative agenda most likely in the next session.Rome wasn’t built in a day ya know.

Klaus · Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:22 am

A101 wrote:
We can’t do anything different now as we are still in vassalage,

That is another toxic lie. The UK as asked the EU to please let it enjoy the benefits of EU membership for yet a little longer (except having an actual vote, which is impossible without actual membership).

The UK can choose to end that arrangement earlier if it chooses.

There is no "vassalage" but merely a calculated compromise to the benefit of the UK, with that benefit being limited to the end of the year as things stand now.

Deliberately misrepresenting this status as you're doing is part of the toxic delusions which have the UK under their control.

But these lies are the only way to even just halfway justify this historic Brexit blunder – but only to people who actually believe those lies, which is why those toxic lies are being pushed as hard as they are.

come the 1st January the legislative law of the UK won’t differ to what they are now greatly untill parliament actully make changes to the laws which will take time, once the government knows if an agreement with the EU has been agreed on the UKGov will then set its legislative agenda most likely in the next session.Rome wasn’t built in a day ya know.

No, but its fall was much more rapid than its rise had been.

Klaus · Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:24 am

A101 wrote:
Until I know what the final future relationship looks like I will let you know, but so far I’m a happy little vegimite, I’ve got what I wanted and that’s out of the EU

You'd have had the same effect if you had just left for Australia while leaving the decision to those UK citizens who'd actually have to live with the consequences, instead of making off to the other side of the planet while giving your old country a kick in the groin on your way out.

A101 · Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:06 am

Kluas wrote:

That is another toxic lie. The UK as asked the EU to please let it enjoy the benefits of EU membership for yet a little longer (except having an actual vote, which is impossible without actual membership).

Spin it what ever way you want, nothing changes from the fact we are still bound by EU legislation by hook or by crook

Kluas wrote:
You'd have had the same effect if you had just left for Australia while leaving the decision to those UK citizens who'd actually have to live with the consequences, instead of making off to the other side of the planet while giving your old country a kick in the groin on your way out.

Not going to matter I’m still a UK citizen, and yes I still have to live with the the way the chips may fall

Klaus · Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:48 am

A101 wrote:
Spin it what ever way you want, nothing changes from the fact we are still bound by EU legislation by hook or by crook

Wrong. The UK has bound itself to the EU's rules for the transition period voluntarily!

"Vassalage" is defined by being oppressed, by being bound without having a say about it which is the opposite of what is actually the case with the UK now and actually for all the time of the UK's EU membership.

This is not a matter of opinion or debate – it is a simple, hard and verifiable fact while your claim is simply factually untrue and you have nothing to stand on defending it, but still you make that claim as if facts and the truth were completely meaningless.

Yeah, I know that that is the approach of the current UK (and US) government, but the sky simply isn't plaid just because you're saying so.

Not going to matter I’m still a UK citizen, and yes I still have to live with the the way the chips may fall

When you're in Australia you'll be living with the consequences of the similarly destructive australian policies, but Brexit will be mostly inconsequential – for you at least, but not at all for the UK citizens you leave behind in the mess you've voted for.

A101 · Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:15 am

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Spin it what ever way you want, nothing changes from the fact we are still bound by EU legislation by hook or by crook

Wrong. The UK has bound itself to the EU's rules for the transition period voluntarily!

"Vassalage" is defined by being oppressed, by being bound without having a say about it which is the opposite of what is actually the case with the UK now and actually for all the time of the UK's EU membership.

This is not a matter of opinion or debate – it is a simple, hard and verifiable fact while your claim is simply factually untrue and you have nothing to stand on defending it, but still you make that claim as if facts and the truth were completely meaningless.

Yeah, I know that that is the approach of the current UK (and US) government, but the sky simply isn't plaid just because you're saying so.

Not going to matter I’m still a UK citizen, and yes I still have to live with the the way the chips may fall

When you're in Australia you'll be living with the consequences of the similarly destructive australian policies, but Brexit will be mostly inconsequential – for you at least, but not at all for the UK citizens you leave behind in the mess you've voted for.

Spin spin spin round and round we go :spin:

It’s amazing how you are now saying Australia’s national policy is destructive. Does that go for every nation except for the EU?

Dutchy · Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:31 am

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Spin it what ever way you want, nothing changes from the fact we are still bound by EU legislation by hook or by crook

Wrong. The UK has bound itself to the EU's rules for the transition period voluntarily!

"Vassalage" is defined by being oppressed, by being bound without having a say about it which is the opposite of what is actually the case with the UK now and actually for all the time of the UK's EU membership.

This is not a matter of opinion or debate – it is a simple, hard and verifiable fact while your claim is simply factually untrue and you have nothing to stand on defending it, but still you make that claim as if facts and the truth were completely meaningless.

Yeah, I know that that is the approach of the current UK (and US) government, but the sky simply isn't plaid just because you're saying so.

Not going to matter I’m still a UK citizen, and yes I still have to live with the the way the chips may fall

When you're in Australia you'll be living with the consequences of the similarly destructive australian policies, but Brexit will be mostly inconsequential – for you at least, but not at all for the UK citizens you leave behind in the mess you've voted for.

Not spinning, just pointing out two most obvious points. I understand that it is inconvenient for you because you are so vocal here, but you are gambling with someone else's future and that underminds your point.

Listening to you makes you almost think that the UK has no mind of its own and is completely at the mercy of the EU. Obviously it isn't, the EU is just not letting any of its fundamentals go to facilitate the wishes of a small Brexitremist.

Spin spin spin round and round we go

It’s amazing how you are now saying Australia’s national policy is destructive. Does that go for every nation except for the EU?

seahawk · Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:04 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Trade is not everything, there are other values like freedom that matter.

Yep more freedom of autonomy from the EU was a huge selling point for myself.

And still, you can't really name five things which should be different in the UK, now you are out. Very good to have autonomy, but the Brits are less free, they can't just pack their things and move anywhere in the EU or many other advantages the EU offers.

It is such a nice argument on the service, think for one minute about what it really entitles and it all falls apart.

In exchange the UK gets full control over who is allowed to move to the UK. It will soon be free of following crazy EU regulations (like shapes of cucumbers or colours of passports), The UK will be free to protect its national interests and identity. Social and environmental standards will be adjusted to make the country highly competitive and the EU will no longer enforce their overblown regulations on the UK. Imho trade deals will come, once the UK has stopped talking to the EU and decided to have no deal with them. Who would want to sign a deal with a vassal of the EU, so other countries will wait to see if the UK is really willing to free itself from EU control or not.

Dutchy · Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:48 am

seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Yep more freedom of autonomy from the EU was a huge selling point for myself.

And still, you can't really name five things which should be different in the UK, now you are out. Very good to have autonomy, but the Brits are less free, they can't just pack their things and move anywhere in the EU or many other advantages the EU offers.

It is such a nice argument on the service, think for one minute about what it really entitles and it all falls apart.

In exchange the UK gets full control over who is allowed to move to the UK. It will soon be free of following crazy EU regulations (like shapes of cucumbers or colours of passports), The UK will be free to protect its national interests and identity. Social and environmental standards will be adjusted to make the country highly competitive and the EU will no longer enforce their overblown regulations on the UK. Imho trade deals will come, once the UK has stopped talking to the EU and decided to have no deal with them. Who would want to sign a deal with a vassal of the EU, so other countries will wait to see if the UK is really willing to free itself from EU control or not.

Now I am. sure you are just. trolling here, well done to go over the top to make sure we can all see it. :checkmark:

94717 · Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:58 am

seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Yep more freedom of autonomy from the EU was a huge selling point for myself.

And still, you can't really name five things which should be different in the UK, now you are out. Very good to have autonomy, but the Brits are less free, they can't just pack their things and move anywhere in the EU or many other advantages the EU offers.

It is such a nice argument on the service, think for one minute about what it really entitles and it all falls apart.

In exchange the UK gets full control over who is allowed to move to the UK. It will soon be free of following crazy EU regulations (like shapes of cucumbers or colours of passports), The UK will be free to protect its national interests and identity. Social and environmental standards will be adjusted to make the country highly competitive and the EU will no longer enforce their overblown regulations on the UK. Imho trade deals will come, once the UK has stopped talking to the EU and decided to have no deal with them. Who would want to sign a deal with a vassal of the EU, so other countries will wait to see if the UK is really willing to free itself from EU control or not.

What EU regulations? Please do not bring up colour of passports while there is no such regulation. Kroatia for example has a beatiful blue one :-)

If the UK defines freedom as not being member of organisation where the nations member together agrees sbout common rules why does not UK leavrs Nato and WTO?

94717 · Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:10 am

Inside EU there is a lot of regulations and standards.

In my industry we working with GDPR V2X , charging of electrical cars etc.

The alternative to these standards is to come back to how the European markets worked before the SM with each country having there own standard.

In practise there was one German standard, one Italian, one French etc.

One company wanted to sell to all got huge costs.

With SM there is one standard. Huge advantage.

Tiday the rest of the wirld like south america, china, africa copy the standards abd regulations of EU and SM.

Do you honestly believe that now when UK leaves SM UK will enforce its own standards and regulations or being a ruletaker meaning it will be forced to copy EU regulation without a say around the tables where the standards and regulations is defined?

sabenapilot · Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:57 am

Sorry for banging on about trade, A101, but this one is providing some interesting reading for those Brits that do care about their economy:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... trade-deal

A few take-aways:

"Throughout the 2016 Brexit referendum campaign and at many points thereafter, a free trade deal with the U.S. was dangled by Brexiters as the prize that beckoned if only they’d hold their nerve. That prize may soon be there for the taking, but the closer it gets, the less impressive it looks."

"The 'fantastic and big' trade deal the two countries might do is simply underwhelming. In the best of the two scenarios set out in the U.K. paper, a free-trade agreement would add a 0.16% boost to the U.K.'s GDP over a 15 year period. For the U.S. the rewards over the same period require a magnifying glass even — the best-case scenario delivers a boost of five-hundredths of a percent of their GDP."

Indeed: read that again… 5 hundredths of a percent! :ugeek:

That's quite an incentive for the U.S. to be willing to give in to any sort of British demand that may come up during the negotiations, isn't it?

"For both countries, the chief motivation is political.
For Johnson, a U.S.trade deal offers a handy distraction should trade talks with the European Union break down, as is very possible. While no deal with the EU is said to be better than a bad deal, almost any deal with the U.S. will have to do.
For Trump, an early supporter of Brexit, an agreement with Britain is a way of widening Washington’s sphere of influence and countering the EU’s massive global trade juggernaut"

The article also explains WHY the gains from a FTA with the US are so disappointingly low, even to Brexiters who are now running the show in Britain and yet had to publish these sobering government estimations of their own election promisses.

"The U.S. is very good at throwing regulatory obstacles in the way of foreign service providers, which makes up 80% of the U.K's economy. The costs of these regulatory barriers which will remain in place under any FTA— ranging from a tax equivalent of about 3% on road freight transport to 40% in broadcasting — far exceed the average tariff on goods. These are amplified for small- and medium-sized firms, often found in Britain still, as compliance with such regulatory hurdles imposes an additional 12% cost on them compared to what large firms face."

In short: the only way for Britain to significantly boost its gains from a FTA with the U.S. is to get fully alligned with their regulatory framework!
So switch from current EU standards to US standards, rather than adopt own British standards like some in the UK dream of….
the key difference being that the UK had a big say in the EU standards, whereas it most certainly won't have any say in the US standards!
Sovereignty, right, A101?
I'd say move from an imaginary state of vasselage into a very real state of vasselage... :white:

ROTFL

94717 · Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:25 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Sorry for banging on about trade, A101, but this one is providing some interesting reading for those Brits that do care about their economy:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... trade-deal

A few take-aways:

"Throughout the 2016 Brexit referendum campaign and at many points thereafter, a free trade deal with the U.S. was dangled by Brexiters as the prize that beckoned if only they’d hold their nerve. That prize may soon be there for the taking, but the closer it gets, the less impressive it looks."

"The 'fantastic and big' trade deal the two countries might do is simply underwhelming. In the best of the two scenarios set out in the U.K. paper, a free-trade agreement would add a 0.16% boost to the U.K.'s GDP over a 15 year period. For the U.S. the rewards over the same period require a magnifying glass even — the best-case scenario delivers a boost of five-hundredths of a percent of their GDP."

Indeed: read that again… 5 hundredths of a percent!
That's quite an incentive for the U.S. to be willing to give in to any sort of British demand that may come up during the negotiations, isn't it?

"For both countries, the chief motivation is political.
For Johnson, a U.S.trade deal offers a handy distraction should trade talks with the European Union break down, as is very possible. While no deal with the EU is said to be better than a bad deal, almost any deal with the U.S. will have to do.
For Trump, an early supporter of Brexit, an agreement with Britain is a way of widening Washington’s sphere of influence and countering the EU’s massive global trade juggernaut"

The article also explains WHY the gains from a FTA with the US are so disappointingly low, even to Brexiters who are now running the show in Britain and yet had to publish these sobering government estimations of their own election promisses.

"The U.S. is very good at throwing regulatory obstacles in the way of foreign service providers, which makes up 80% of the U.K's economy. The costs of these regulatory barriers which will remain in place under any FTA— ranging from a tax equivalent of about 3% on road freight transport to 40% in broadcasting — far exceed the average tariff on goods. These are amplified for small- and medium-sized firms, often found in Britain still, as compliance with such regulatory hurdles imposes an additional 12% cost on them compared to what large firms face."

In short: the only way for Britain to significantly boost its gains from a FTA with the U.S. is to get fully alligned with their regulatory framework!
So switch from current EU standards to US standards, rather than adopt own British standards like some in the UK dream of….
the key difference being that the UK had a big say in the EU standards, whereas it most certainly won't have any say in the US standards!
Sovereignty, right, A101?
I'd say move from an imaginary state of vasselage into a very real state of vasselage...
ROTFL

Why should UK or USA signa FTA like this? Who will put the effort to maintain it if noone gain from it?

Something more is needed between USA and UK in order to make the gains bigger. Something like the SM. USA can offer this in form of becoming a state or a territory.

So in order to gain it will loose some "freedom" if it does not consider that by becoming a state it can vote in presidential and congess elections.

Sounds familiar?

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