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JJJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:47 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

This was sent to every home in Britain ahead of the referendum.

http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm

The relevant part:

WILL PARLIAMENT
LOSE ITS POWER?

Another anxiety expressed about Britain's membership of the Common Market is that Parliament could lose its supremacy, and we would have to obey laws passed by unelected 'faceless bureaucrats' sitting in their headquarters in Brussels.

What are the facts?

Fact No. 1 is that in the modern world even the Super Powers like America and Russia do not have complete freedom of action. Medium-sized nations like Britain are more and more subject to economic and political forces we cannot control on our own.

A striking recent example of the impact of such forces is the way the Arab oil-producing nations brought about an energy and financial crisis not only in Britain but throughout a great part of the world.

Since we cannot go it alone in the modern world, Britain has for years been a member of international groupings like the United Nations, NATO and the International Monetary Fund.

Membership of such groupings imposes both rights and duties, but has not deprived us of our national identity, or changed our way of life.

Membership of the Common Market also imposes new rights and duties on Britain, but does not deprive us of our national identity. To say that membership could force Britain to eat Euro-bread or drink Euro-beer is nonsense.


Sound familiar? Rights come with duties, relevance in the world stage comes at the expense of sovereignty.

Everyone who voted in '75 should have read this. It's preposterous to pretend it all was a giant conspiracy of the British government back in the day to dupe the public into a bad deal.


The facts are you are referring to a referendum after the fact which had taken place in 75 after the Heath government passed the bill to enter the EEC. in the weeks leading up to the 1970 GE Heath declared that "it would be wrong if any Government contemplating membership of the European Community were to take this step without `the full hearted consent of Parliament and people" where was the Common Market Referendum before joining and the suppression of the Werner report. Opinion polls at the time prior to the UK joining the EEC the UK people were hugely opposed.


Polls were hugely opposed so I guess that's why the referendum won by taking 2/3 of the vote. That document I linked was sent to every home in Britain ahead of the referendum so I guess anyone with basic reading skills knew what was going on.

Let's see what the "no" campaign had to say at the time, anyway.

https://digital.library.lse.ac.uk/objects/lse:cez792qaf

"Free to rule ourselves", "unelected commissioners in Brussels", "Merging into a single nation". Are you telling me that the supposed dangers of EU integration weren't known? It's all there.

Why did the UK vote yes? Because the British economy was a basket case, and you can't eat sovereignty.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:40 pm

BTW, after exiting the EU, the ECHM, I am sure the UK will leave the EUFA, I mean I noticed EUFA, it has EU in it and Europa. Must be unarable for our Brexiteers to be in this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:58 pm

JJJ wrote:

Polls were hugely opposed so I guess that's why the referendum won by taking 2/3 of the vote. That document I linked was sent to every home in Britain ahead of the referendum so I guess anyone with basic reading skills knew what was going on.



When was the referenda for the common market 1975, that’s a very telling clue on what Heath thought of his chances if he had taken it to the electorate between his pledge at the 1970 GE and signing the treaty instrument in 72

The other telling clue is the actual ballot paper and it’s very leading preamble to the question, which begs to ask if it was so good why did the UK have to renegotiate the treaty after just 12 months after officially joining the EEC.


Preamble
The Government has announced the results of the renegotiation of the United Kingdom's terms of membership of the European Community.



Question to the electorate
Do you think the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?



JJJ wrote:
Why did the UK vote yes? Because the British economy was a basket case, and you can't eat sovereignty.


The UK was just about bankrupt after the war but a majority of its industries were intact which gave the UK an advantage at rebuilding post WWII, compared to the continent whereas the continent rebuilt using newer technologies at the time which increased efficiency with the continent and the emerging industrialisation of majority agrarian nations within the continent.

Also the UK was still responsible for aid to its British empire saw much of it revenue expended overseas and on defence of the continent at the expense of its domestic economy, given that the UK remained in economic stagnation for over decade after joining the EEC one really has to suspect the claim that it was the EEC that lead a revival of the UK

JJJ wrote:
Let's see what the "no" campaign had to say at the time, anyway.



A lot of it was based on the report before joining the EEC via the Werner plan of 1970 in which the Heath Government suppressed to the general public
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:04 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BTW, after exiting the EU, the ECHM, I am sure the UK will leave the EUFA, I mean I noticed EUFA, it has EU in it and Europa. Must be unarable for our Brexiteers to be in this.



Ah why not, more of a cricket and rugby fan myself
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:29 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Polls were hugely opposed so I guess that's why the referendum won by taking 2/3 of the vote. That document I linked was sent to every home in Britain ahead of the referendum so I guess anyone with basic reading skills knew what was going on.



When was the referenda for the common market 1975, that’s a very telling clue on what Heath thought of his chances if he had taken it to the electorate between his pledge at the 1970 GE and signing the treaty instrument in 72

The other telling clue is the actual ballot paper and it’s very leading preamble to the question, which begs to ask if it was so good why did the UK have to renegotiate the treaty after just 12 months after officially joining the EEC.


Are you seriously saying that's how you get a 2/3 majority? You're grasping at straws and calling the UK electorate of the time gullible, at the very least.


A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Why did the UK vote yes? Because the British economy was a basket case, and you can't eat sovereignty.


The UK was just about bankrupt after the war but a majority of its industries were intact which gave the UK an advantage at rebuilding post WWII, compared to the continent whereas the continent rebuilt using newer technologies at the time which increased efficiency with the continent and the emerging industrialisation of majority agrarian nations within the continent.

Also the UK was still responsible for aid to its British empire saw much of it revenue expended overseas and on defence of the continent at the expense of its domestic economy, given that the UK remained in economic stagnation for over decade after joining the EEC one really has to suspect the claim that it was the EEC that lead a revival of the UK


Responsible for the British empire is a romantic way of saying clinging to an outdated worldview. And of course the UK remained in stagnation for a decade after joining the EEC, there were two major world crises right after the UK joined.

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Let's see what the "no" campaign had to say at the time, anyway.



A lot of it was based on the report before joining the EEC via the Werner plan of 1970 in which the Heath Government suppressed to the general public


Suppressed? I guess that pamphlet was printed in clandestine shops and circulated in back alleys? There was a healthy debate going back to the 50s amplified with EFTA failure and unsuccessful early pushes for membership (vetoed by De Gaulle).
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:06 pm

JJJ wrote:

Are you seriously saying that's how you get a 2/3 majority? You're grasping at straws and calling the UK electorate of the time gullible, at the very least.



Im not say anything about 2/3 majority, you are referencing a referenda after the fact and after the a majority on hear claims about EU lies. The referenda was based on lies before and after we joined those are the facts.




JJJ wrote:
Responsible for the British empire is a romantic way of saying clinging to an outdated worldview.


Really the UK went the a period of decolonisation up to around the 1960 once those regions were secure enough for independence, unlike the French and French Indochina


JJJ wrote:
And of course the UK remained in stagnation for a decade after joining the EEC, there were two major world crises right after the UK joined.


You can’t lay the blame solely on energy crisis of 73& 79


JJJ wrote:
Suppressed? I guess that pamphlet was printed in clandestine shops and circulated in back alleys? There was a healthy debate going back to the 50s amplified with EFTA failure and unsuccessful early pushes for membership (vetoed by De Gaulle).



You know what I’m talking about the political manoeuvres on what it really meant to join the EEC and the moves to show that it was more of a trade organisation than a view to a political union as they knew the electorate would not support it, as to why Heath abandoning of a referenda before joining public opinion at the time was against joining
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:15 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
BTW, after exiting the EU, the ECHM, I am sure the UK will leave the EUFA, I mean I noticed EUFA, it has EU in it and Europa. Must be unarable for our Brexiteers to be in this.



Ah why not, more of a cricket and rugby fan myself


Your joke is actually very telling. You don't care about the rest of the UK who enjoy football in this case.........
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
BTW, after exiting the EU, the ECHM, I am sure the UK will leave the EUFA, I mean I noticed EUFA, it has EU in it and Europa. Must be unarable for our Brexiteers to be in this.



Ah why not, more of a cricket and rugby fan myself


Your joke is actually very telling. You don't care about the rest of the UK who enjoy football in this case.........


Really you must be a very good psychologist if you get that just from my preference to which sport I prefer.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:45 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


Ah why not, more of a cricket and rugby fan myself


Your joke is actually very telling. You don't care about the rest of the UK who enjoy football in this case.........


Really you must be a very good psychologist if you get that just from my preference to which sport I prefer.


Just stating the obvious, a combination of reading your comments over 8 parts times a zillion post....................
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:52 pm

Dutchy wrote:
olle wrote:
marcelh wrote:
It won't. Economies on both sides will be affected by whatever sort of Brexit will become. As an European, I hope there will be a hard Brexit. Why? Brexitieers not only want to leave te EU, they want to destroy it. I consider those people as an enemy and should be treated accordingly.


Sadly I tend to agree.

It will cost many a lot but the goal of Bresiteers toi destroy EU, Schengen, SM, Euro etc will cost the people of EU even more.


Sad but true, although I think this is only a portion of the Brexiteers, part of them seem to believe that they could cherry-pick and thus benefit from the EU without the drawbacks (the promised unicorns), but for the Brexitremist it is certainly the case. They rather see the EU destroyed, perhaps then their minority complex will be done, because of the UK on its own is a big nation within Europe. But indeed, the EU sticks together, so this wet dream will not become a reality.

The problem with all this is that those persons have been a part of the EU for many years, they have been within the EU some in positions of authority where it is said it is better to destabilize from within than without. Yet all those who do not support Brexit want them to remain in the EU, so it begs the question, does the EU have such powerful tools that they can control malcontents? Since they exist, obviously the holistic benefits of the EU is lost on them....
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:37 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Your joke is actually very telling. You don't care about the rest of the UK who enjoy football in this case.........


Really you must be a very good psychologist if you get that just from my preference to which sport I prefer.


Just stating the obvious, a combination of reading your comments over 8 parts times a zillion post....................



Yep it is stating the obvious I like cricket and rugby, what has that got to do with not caring other areas of the UK you will need to explain it better. :roll:
 
AeroVega
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:13 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Really you must be a very good psychologist if you get that just from my preference to which sport I prefer.


Just stating the obvious, a combination of reading your comments over 8 parts times a zillion post....................



Yep it is stating the obvious I like cricket and rugby, what has that got to do with not caring other areas of the UK you will need to explain it better. :roll:


You already explained it perfectly yourself. You said you would be fine with the UK leaving UEFA since, as a cricket and rugby fan, it does not affect you.
 
AeroVega
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:32 am

UEFA is actually a perfect example to explain the consequences of divergence. If you want to play in the UEFA Champions League then you commit to following the rules of financial fair play. If you diverge and gain an unfair competitive advantage then you do not get to play anymore (Manchester City). Makes perfect sense, no?
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:10 am

AeroVega wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Just stating the obvious, a combination of reading your comments over 8 parts times a zillion post....................



Yep it is stating the obvious I like cricket and rugby, what has that got to do with not caring other areas of the UK you will need to explain it better. :roll:


You already explained it perfectly yourself. You said you would be fine with the UK leaving UEFA since, as a cricket and rugby fan, it does not affect you.


No that's not correct, you are inferring that because I do not follow football I do not care about the other areas of the UK which is the most patronising post yet to date from pro remain camp. its not much different from the Sport I follow that are played internationally

least I get Dutchy's joke as intended as per the original post from Dutchy but it seems you guys want to turn it into something different to which it was intended. but the response dose not really surprise me.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:56 am

A101 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
A101 wrote:


Yep it is stating the obvious I like cricket and rugby, what has that got to do with not caring other areas of the UK you will need to explain it better. :roll:


You already explained it perfectly yourself. You said you would be fine with the UK leaving UEFA since, as a cricket and rugby fan, it does not affect you.


No that's not correct, you are inferring that because I do not follow football I do not care about the other areas of the UK which is the most patronising post yet to date from pro remain camp. its not much different from the Sport I follow that are played internationally

least I get Dutchy's joke as intended as per the original post from Dutchy but it seems you guys want to turn it into something different to which it was intended. but the response dose not really surprise me.


Yes, of course, it was a joke, but the way you reacted was quite telling for your Brexit point of view: if it doesn't affect you, you are fine with it - your own words -. Brexit doesn't affect you, you will be in Australia and you are in your 60-ish or 70-ish or something, so you had your carrier, so you are fine with all the drawbacks and hardship the UK is putting itself into. That is the parallel of your statement and that is the bottom line you have been telling us in all those posts.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:12 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:

You already explained it perfectly yourself. You said you would be fine with the UK leaving UEFA since, as a cricket and rugby fan, it does not affect you.


No that's not correct, you are inferring that because I do not follow football I do not care about the other areas of the UK which is the most patronising post yet to date from pro remain camp. its not much different from the Sport I follow that are played internationally

least I get Dutchy's joke as intended as per the original post from Dutchy but it seems you guys want to turn it into something different to which it was intended. but the response dose not really surprise me.


Yes, of course, it was a joke, but the way you reacted was quite telling for your Brexit point of view: if it doesn't affect you, you are fine with it - your own words -. Brexit doesn't affect you, you will be in Australia and you are in your 60-ish or 70-ish or something, so you had your carrier, so you are fine with all the drawbacks and hardship the UK is putting itself into. That is the parallel of your statement and that is the bottom line you have been telling us in all those posts.


Get ya hand off it, you knew I was replying to the joke from the beginning in that vein. you guys are presenting it more than it is, very duplicitous and disingenuous
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:28 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

No that's not correct, you are inferring that because I do not follow football I do not care about the other areas of the UK which is the most patronising post yet to date from pro remain camp. its not much different from the Sport I follow that are played internationally

least I get Dutchy's joke as intended as per the original post from Dutchy but it seems you guys want to turn it into something different to which it was intended. but the response dose not really surprise me.


Yes, of course, it was a joke, but the way you reacted was quite telling for your Brexit point of view: if it doesn't affect you, you are fine with it - your own words -. Brexit doesn't affect you, you will be in Australia and you are in your 60-ish or 70-ish or something, so you had your carrier, so you are fine with all the drawbacks and hardship the UK is putting itself into. That is the parallel of your statement and that is the bottom line you have been telling us in all those posts.


Get ya hand off it, you knew I was replying to the joke from the beginning in that vein. you guys are presenting it more than it is, very duplicitous and disingenuous


Just taking your remarks as a metaphor to all your other statements. If you think that is duplicitous and disingenuous, I can't imagine what you truly think about the Brexit campaign.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
bennett123
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:01 am

So UK firms will need to either produce goods meeting the higher of EU and UK standards or split production into EU and Non EU.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:10 am

bennett123 wrote:
So UK firms will need to either produce goods meeting the higher of EU and UK standards or split production into EU and Non EU.



Depending on the product yes that will need to happen if the UK diverges from the standard. Australia all ready does that now as national standards differ from Australia and the EU in agricultural production. It’s not like the UK does not meet standards now we just need to get them EU certified
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:30 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Yes, of course, it was a joke, but the way you reacted was quite telling for your Brexit point of view: if it doesn't affect you, you are fine with it - your own words -. Brexit doesn't affect you, you will be in Australia and you are in your 60-ish or 70-ish or something, so you had your carrier, so you are fine with all the drawbacks and hardship the UK is putting itself into. That is the parallel of your statement and that is the bottom line you have been telling us in all those posts.


Get ya hand off it, you knew I was replying to the joke from the beginning in that vein. you guys are presenting it more than it is, very duplicitous and disingenuous


Just taking your remarks as a metaphor to all your other statements. If you think that is duplicitous and disingenuous, I can't imagine what you truly think about the Brexit campaign.


Yep both the remain/leave campaigns made some dubious claims no doubt about it, it’s up to the individual to sort the wheat from the chafff
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:34 am

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Are you seriously saying that's how you get a 2/3 majority? You're grasping at straws and calling the UK electorate of the time gullible, at the very least.



Im not say anything about 2/3 majority, you are referencing a referenda after the fact and after the a majority on hear claims about EU lies. The referenda was based on lies before and after we joined those are the facts.


The facts are the EEC allowed the UK to turn around its economy. Just as predicted.

https://digital.library.lse.ac.uk/objects/lse:fuv593baz

It offers the best framework for success, the best protection for our standard of living, the best foundation for better prosperity


The part of "Why can't we go at it alone?" should have been compulsory reading before the 2016 referendum.

If we came out , the community would go on taking decisions which affect us vitally- but we should have no say on them.

We would be clinging to the shadow of British sovereignty while its substance flies out of the window.


A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Responsible for the British empire is a romantic way of saying clinging to an outdated worldview.


Really the UK went the a period of decolonisation up to around the 1960 once those regions were secure enough for independence, unlike the French and French Indochina


It's not like the UK didn't have its share of colonial wars and uprisings post-WW2.


A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
And of course the UK remained in stagnation for a decade after joining the EEC, there were two major world crises right after the UK joined.


You can’t lay the blame solely on energy crisis of 73& 79


I am not, I'm merely saying there's no noticeable difference between growth rates post-76 between UK, France and Germany, and the UK even recovers better from '79 than either.

https://imgur.com/nQhQF51

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Suppressed? I guess that pamphlet was printed in clandestine shops and circulated in back alleys? There was a healthy debate going back to the 50s amplified with EFTA failure and unsuccessful early pushes for membership (vetoed by De Gaulle).



You know what I’m talking about the political manoeuvres on what it really meant to join the EEC and the moves to show that it was more of a trade organisation than a view to a political union as they knew the electorate would not support it, as to why Heath abandoning of a referenda before joining public opinion at the time was against joining


And I am saying that the fact that the EEC was going to be much, much more than a simple trade organisation was known from day one.

It's in the pamphlets, it's in the manifestos, it's in the contemporary political discussions. You had to be blind or absolutely uninterested in politics to claim you were duped, and the referendum spoke clearly.
 
AeroVega
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:15 pm

A101 wrote:
No one is trying to reduce the integrity of SM, all goods exported will meet the standards of the EU, its the EU trying to force those standards on the UK when it our own sovereign right to determine our own national standards, nothing more nothing less. The EU is trying to keep the UK in its sphere of influence it does not recognise we have left the CU/SM

the UK negotiating strategy is one of an independent sovereign nation, not a colony of the EU by defualt


You are confused. The EU is not trying to impose its product standards on the UK. If a UK company produces a product that meets EU standards then they can sell it in the EU, just like any other country.

What the EU will not accept is the UK giving that same company a competitive advantage over EU companies through state aid and lax environmental and labor regulations.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:39 pm

AeroVega wrote:
What the EU will not accept is the UK giving that same company a competitive advantage over EU companies through state aid and lax environmental and labor regulations.

Which is another trade barrier that is used the world over, no different than saying low tax nations have an advantage, etc etc etc. every one does that, so its nothing new to the UK as they have done it to other nations as well.
As they say, karma is a b*******
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:56 pm

AeroVega wrote:
UEFA is actually a perfect example to explain the consequences of divergence. If you want to play in the UEFA Champions League then you commit to following the rules of financial fair play. If you diverge and gain an unfair competitive advantage then you do not get to play anymore (Manchester City). Makes perfect sense, no?


UEFA is not a fair organisation. Greedy and money making.

Why does 1st, 2nd and 3rd in Premier League get you automatically to the group stages, whilst the Champions of Poland, Norway, Bulgaria, Romania etc, only gets you to the Champions League qualifiers?
 
AeroVega
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:23 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
UEFA is actually a perfect example to explain the consequences of divergence. If you want to play in the UEFA Champions League then you commit to following the rules of financial fair play. If you diverge and gain an unfair competitive advantage then you do not get to play anymore (Manchester City). Makes perfect sense, no?


UEFA is not a fair organisation. Greedy and money making.


Why stay in then? Why not join your American cousins in Concacaf?
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:42 pm

AeroVega wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
UEFA is actually a perfect example to explain the consequences of divergence. If you want to play in the UEFA Champions League then you commit to following the rules of financial fair play. If you diverge and gain an unfair competitive advantage then you do not get to play anymore (Manchester City). Makes perfect sense, no?


UEFA is not a fair organisation. Greedy and money making.


Why stay in then? Why not join your American cousins in Concacaf?


It makes no odds to me.

Just pointing out how flawed and unfair things are in UEFA. FIFA is no better.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:09 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

UEFA is not a fair organisation. Greedy and money making.

Why does 1st, 2nd and 3rd in Premier League get you automatically to the group stages, whilst the Champions of Poland, Norway, Bulgaria, Romania etc, only gets you to the Champions League qualifiers?


Probably not, but it seems its members happy. How many FAs have withdrawn from it.

As to your question, the answer is explained in some length here:

https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Do ... WNLOAD.pdf

What part of it do you object to? I’m kidding - you’re not actually interested in the answer, are you? I’m guessing this is about some half-baked notion about all nations being equal and therefore all the champions of those nations being treated as qualitative equals, even if they objectively aren’t? Like that whole thing about the UK being equal to the EU, when it is objectively smaller.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:12 pm

A101 wrote:
Get ya hand off it, you knew I was replying to the joke from the beginning in that vein. you guys are presenting it more than it is, very duplicitous and disingenuous


LOL

Bit rich coming from someone who keeps trotting out - and getting indignant about - Verhofstadt’s facetious use of the term “empire”, don’t you think?
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:41 pm

A101 wrote:
Really the UK went the a period of decolonisation up to around the 1960 once those regions were secure enough for independence, unlike the French and French Indochina


Is this some kind of weird joke?

Ever heard of partition? Churchill himself characterized the UK’s behaviour as a “shameful flight” because of how poorly implemented it was. The US historian Stanley Wolpert wrote an excellent book by that title: “Shameful Flight: The last years of the British Empire in India”.

Maybe do some research before peddling myths.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4103
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:04 am

From my limited reading I have not seen any practical way for the UK to withdraw from India leaving behind a united and stable government. I would be happy to read a book or two explaining otherwise.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2004
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:32 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
From my limited reading I have not seen any practical way for the UK to withdraw from India leaving behind a united and stable government. I would be happy to read a book or two explaining otherwise.


Partition was probably inevitable after decades of British divide and rule policy. It’s remarkably poor implementation, however, was not inevitable.

Wolpert’s book is an eye opener. If you want the Indian take, Pankaj Mishra has written some pretty sharp critiques. Mishra recently wrote an article about Brexit referencing the partition:

“The malign incompetence of the Brexiteers was precisely prefigured during Britain’s exit from India in 1947, most strikingly in the lack of orderly preparation for it. The British government had announced that India would have independence by June 1948. In the first week of June 1947, however, Mountbatten suddenly proclaimed that the transfer of power would happen on Aug. 15, 1947 — a “ludicrously early date,” as he himself blurted out. In July, a British lawyer named Cyril Radcliffe was entrusted with the task of drawing new boundaries of a country he had never previously visited.

Given only around five weeks to invent the political geography of an India flanked by an eastern and a western wing called Pakistan, Radcliffe failed to visit any villages, communities, rivers or forests along the border he planned to demarcate. Dividing agricultural hinterlands from port cities, and abruptly reducing Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs on either side of the new border to a religious minority, Radcliffe delivered a plan for partition that effectively sentenced millions to death or desolation while bringing him the highest-ranked knighthood“.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opin ... mpire.html

It’s worth a read, if only because it reflects the views of a good chunk of this much-vaunted “Commonwealth”.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:02 am

Thanks - I am just well into The Anarchy, by William Dalrymple on the entry of the East India Company into the country. Shameful Flight is on my list, but I may not be up to another India book for a couple months.
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Olddog
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:29 am

You should read that poll published today: UK more nostalgic for empire than other ex-colonial powers

It is one of the main misunderstanding with the UK in the EU, a lot of brits seems to think that due to ex-imperial reach, they were obviously destined to lead the EU. When reality hit , it is hard to swallow.
Signature censored
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:27 am

ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

UEFA is not a fair organisation. Greedy and money making.

Why does 1st, 2nd and 3rd in Premier League get you automatically to the group stages, whilst the Champions of Poland, Norway, Bulgaria, Romania etc, only gets you to the Champions League qualifiers?


Probably not, but it seems its members happy. How many FAs have withdrawn from it.

As to your question, the answer is explained in some length here:

https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Do ... WNLOAD.pdf

What part of it do you object to? I’m kidding - you’re not actually interested in the answer, are you? I’m guessing this is about some half-baked notion about all nations being equal and therefore all the champions of those nations being treated as qualitative equals, even if they objectively aren’t? Like that whole thing about the UK being equal to the EU, when it is objectively smaller.


Members happy? What choices do they have LOL.

And yes. A competition called the Champions League, I would expect ALL champions to have an equal opportunity. But maybe you are right. Teams that finish 3rd are more worthy than Champions from other Leagues.

Out of interest. I don’t watch it. I have no interest in European matches. Until my team qualifies, which is highly unlikely.

I just don’t like the greed and unfairness shown in the competition. A real shame as the old European Cup was great. As was Cup Winners Cup and UEFA Cup.
 
Ertro
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:36 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
I would expect ALL champions to have an equal opportunity. ... I just don’t like the greed and unfairness shown in the competition


It is nice that you think UEFA members to be equal.
Wouldn't it be silly if one UEFA member suddenly resigns from UEFA and then starts to think it at that moment rises from being equal to other countries in UEFA to be equal to UEFA as a whole so that it can demand tournaments where half the participients come from this one country and other half from rest of UEFA or something else silly. This resigned country thinks it is fair that they should not be bound by the common UEFA rules and referees but they are sovereign and they should be allowed to participate in this tournament when playing with some unknown homecooked mix of half american football rules against UEFA members sticking to proper football rules.

What if UEFA says that NO, we are not going to have such tournament? If you want to be sovereign and not content to being equal to UEFA member countries but rather you think you are at higher UEFA level to be equal to UEFA instead and you think you should have your own american football rules to the game what about you play with your own ball somewhere else for a while to see how it works out for you.

In EU there are member states that are equal and the member states think the outsiders are at a bit lower status than member states.
EU member states have hard time understanding that one EU member state resigns and starts to think it should be treated to be equal at higher EU level instead of being equal at the member state level as everybody else.
 
bennett123
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:44 am

Not sure that Brexiteers wanted or expected to leave the EU.

A point of view that I have heard a lot are;

'If we all stand together then they will give in

'They need us, so they will have to give us what we want'.

Not sure where we go from here.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:55 am

bennett123 wrote:
Not sure where we go from here.


well... i always found the Krikkit a perfect analogy to Brexit....

Douglas Adams - Life, the Universe and Everything wrote:
Due to the dust cloud, the sky above Krikkit was completely black, and thus the people of Krikkit led insular lives and never realised the existence of the Universe at large. With the population thus prepared, Hactar disintegrated but still functional, built and crashed a model spaceship onto Krikkit in order to introduce its inhabitants to the concept of the Universe. Secretly guided by Hactar, the Krikkiters built their first spaceship, Krikkit One, penetrated the dust cloud, and surveyed the Universe before them. Unbeknownst to the Krikkiters, Hactar had been subliminally conditioning their minds to the point where they could not accept a Universe into their world view, with the intention of putting them into a similar mindset to that of the Silastic Armorfiends. Sooner or later, they would require an Ultimate Weapon, and this would allow Hactar to finally complete his purpose, something he had felt considerable guilt about not doing before. Upon first witnessing the glory and splendor of the Universe, they casually, whimsically, decided to destroy it, remarking, "It'll have to go." Aided again by the mind of Hactar, the Krikkiters built an incredible battlefleet and waged a massive war against the entire Universe. The Galaxy, then in an era of relative peace, was unprepared, and spent the next 2,000 years fighting the Krikkiters in a war that resulted in about two "grillion" casualties.


from: https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Krikkit

Blame game and malice will be from here...

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:28 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

UEFA is not a fair organisation. Greedy and money making.

Why does 1st, 2nd and 3rd in Premier League get you automatically to the group stages, whilst the Champions of Poland, Norway, Bulgaria, Romania etc, only gets you to the Champions League qualifiers?


Probably not, but it seems its members happy. How many FAs have withdrawn from it.

As to your question, the answer is explained in some length here:

https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Do ... WNLOAD.pdf

What part of it do you object to? I’m kidding - you’re not actually interested in the answer, are you? I’m guessing this is about some half-baked notion about all nations being equal and therefore all the champions of those nations being treated as qualitative equals, even if they objectively aren’t? Like that whole thing about the UK being equal to the EU, when it is objectively smaller.


Members happy? What choices do they have LOL.

And yes. A competition called the Champions League, I would expect ALL champions to have an equal opportunity. But maybe you are right. Teams that finish 3rd are more worthy than Champions from other Leagues.

Out of interest. I don’t watch it. I have no interest in European matches. Until my team qualifies, which is highly unlikely.

I just don’t like the greed and unfairness shown in the competition. A real shame as the old European Cup was great. As was Cup Winners Cup and UEFA Cup.

I of course would like the swedish teams to enter champions leage on the same level as UK teams, spanish teams etc. But I do know If Sweden would start to perform better then today on national level and team level it would be considered in the same group as Spain.

Sadly this is the same when we talk about EU that bigger countries like Germany and France has bigger influance. But on other areas where sweden is heavy like business I consider Sweden having heavy weight.

What Uefa and EU has in common is that even as a small actor we have a veto even as a small nation. This is for example the first time since the viking period that ROI is playing on equal level as England. It is the first time holland and poland has the same weight as France and Germany. It is the first time that Russia do not dare to attack Finland or Sweden because backing of EU.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:33 am

bennett123 wrote:
Not sure that Brexiteers wanted or expected to leave the EU.

A point of view that I have heard a lot are;

'If we all stand together then they will give in

'They need us, so they will have to give us what we want'.

Not sure where we go from here.


It was very simple picture until they won the election. The economy was going to come to its true level after leaving the EU prison. No negative side while EU was going to accept without changes UK demands, FTA with USA directly connected with fast increasing business, and reestablished empire.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:55 am

One has to wonder about the affects of the Coronavirus epidemic/pandemic on the carrying out of the remaining steps of Brexit and trade negotiations. Some in key positions in government, including the Health Minister are infected or have to quarantine to protect themselves, family and others. Parliament may not convene for weeks. No doubt it will delay 'full Brexit' for months, possibly lead to another extension of the time of it.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1840
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:06 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Really the UK went the a period of decolonisation up to around the 1960 once those regions were secure enough for independence, unlike the French and French Indochina


Is this some kind of weird joke?

Ever heard of partition? Churchill himself characterized the UK’s behaviour as a “shameful flight” because of how poorly implemented it was. The US historian Stanley Wolpert wrote an excellent book by that title: “Shameful Flight: The last years of the British Empire in India”.

Maybe do some research before peddling myths.


We left behind such brilliantly secure and peaceful situations *everywhere*! India/Pakistan, Palestine, Malaya, Burma, South Africa, most of Eastern Africa...
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:19 pm

Olddog wrote:
You should read that poll published today: UK more nostalgic for empire than other ex-colonial powers

It is one of the main misunderstanding with the UK in the EU, a lot of brits seems to think that due to ex-imperial reach, they were obviously destined to lead the EU. When reality hit , it is hard to swallow.


the Guardian wrote:
a speech made by Prince Charles on a visit to Accra in Ghana in 2018 in which he apologised for the “appalling atrocity of the slave trade”. He said that while Britain led the abolition movement it has “a shared responsibility to ensure that the abject horror of slavery is never forgotten”. She suggested he needed to make this speech to a British audience to shift attitudes.


And when I dare to suggest that the "natives" might - as a joke! - make fun of me being a colonial, someone on here manages to take offence. :roll: This article highlights the misplaced sense of superiority behind that.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2004
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:33 pm

Olddog wrote:
You should read that poll published today: UK more nostalgic for empire than other ex-colonial powers

It is one of the main misunderstanding with the UK in the EU, a lot of brits seems to think that due to ex-imperial reach, they were obviously destined to lead the EU. When reality hit , it is hard to swallow.


Timely YouGov poll. Much higher support for Empire among Brexiteers and old people - no surprises there.

Found this bit particularly relevant:

“Jon Wilson, professor of modern history at King’s College London, said the likelihood that a country believes it left its former colonies better off appeared to be correlated to the extent and openness of the national debate about empire.

“[Some] have spoken about the violence of empire – Belgium in the Congo, France in Algeria, Italy in Ethiopia,” he said. “The Netherlands, like Britain, has not had that debate.””

I’ve noticed this too, albeit in comparison with the US. In the US, the Smithsonian museums tackle contentious historical issues like slavery, racism and segregation head on. In the UK, there’s little of the sort.

Evidently that may be changing with improved education standard:

“In the UK, people aged over 64 were more than twice as likely to be proud of empire than those aged 18-24, the polling showed, which Wilson suggested may be linked to improved teaching.

“There are syllabuses that don’t shy away from the brutal truth,” he said. “But the broader public debate about empire is extremely thin and gets used as a proxy for nationalism.””

No points for guessing how those two groups line up on the remain/leave spectrum.
 
marcelh
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:06 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


Ah why not, more of a cricket and rugby fan myself


Your joke is actually very telling. You don't care about the rest of the UK who enjoy football in this case.........


Really you must be a very good psychologist if you get that just from my preference to which sport I prefer.


Ah, just playing with the colonies.....
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:32 pm

Olddog wrote:
You should read that poll published today: UK more nostalgic for empire than other ex-colonial powers

It is one of the main misunderstanding with the UK in the EU, a lot of brits seems to think that due to ex-imperial reach, they were obviously destined to lead the EU. When reality hit , it is hard to swallow.

The UK has been in the EU for 40+ years and they have not been leading it but being a stumbling block, do you really believe that after 40 years they are still delusional to believe that they ever led or were ever going to lead the EU?
In fact, since they had to essentially "abandon" the Commonwealth to become a full member of the EU, the trust in their leadership would be suspect at best and any delusions about being the leader went out the windows when they had to bow.

So the politicians have always known where they stood in the EU, the masses were led by the politicians blaming the EU for everything that has gone wrong, so in those cases, they would not be looking to lead but to leave which seems to be what has taken place.
 
A101
Posts: 1959
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:29 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Really the UK went the a period of decolonisation up to around the 1960 once those regions were secure enough for independence, unlike the French and French Indochina


Is this some kind of weird joke?

Ever heard of partition? Churchill himself characterized the UK’s behaviour as a “shameful flight” because of how poorly implemented it was. The US historian Stanley Wolpert wrote an excellent book by that title: “Shameful Flight: The last years of the British Empire in India”.

Maybe do some research before peddling myths.


Nope no joke, Congress and the UK reached an agreement about independence in 42 and was set to happen after the war, while the implementation was indeed shameful it was not that the UK went in to restore its rule over it post WWII unlike the French in Indochina, that is what is meant by decolonisation. The UK was essentially bankrupt that's why we had to make an emergency loan after WWII from the US. context is everything.
 
A101
Posts: 1959
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:33 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Get ya hand off it, you knew I was replying to the joke from the beginning in that vein. you guys are presenting it more than it is, very duplicitous and disingenuous


LOL

Bit rich coming from someone who keeps trotting out - and getting indignant about - Verhofstadt’s facetious use of the term “empire”, don’t you think?



NO a bit different Dutchy is not going around using the term in speeches unlike Verhofstadt has done on more than one occasion. and I responded to Dutchy in the jovial manner in which it was intended
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:35 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Olddog wrote:
You should read that poll published today: UK more nostalgic for empire than other ex-colonial powers

It is one of the main misunderstanding with the UK in the EU, a lot of brits seems to think that due to ex-imperial reach, they were obviously destined to lead the EU. When reality hit , it is hard to swallow.


Timely YouGov poll. Much higher support for Empire among Brexiteers and old people - no surprises there.

Found this bit particularly relevant:

“Jon Wilson, professor of modern history at King’s College London, said the likelihood that a country believes it left its former colonies better off appeared to be correlated to the extent and openness of the national debate about empire.

“[Some] have spoken about the violence of empire – Belgium in the Congo, France in Algeria, Italy in Ethiopia,” he said. “The Netherlands, like Britain, has not had that debate.””

I’ve noticed this too, albeit in comparison with the US. In the US, the Smithsonian museums tackle contentious historical issues like slavery, racism and segregation head on. In the UK, there’s little of the sort.

Evidently that may be changing with improved education standard:

“In the UK, people aged over 64 were more than twice as likely to be proud of empire than those aged 18-24, the polling showed, which Wilson suggested may be linked to improved teaching.

“There are syllabuses that don’t shy away from the brutal truth,” he said. “But the broader public debate about empire is extremely thin and gets used as a proxy for nationalism.””

No points for guessing how those two groups line up on the remain/leave spectrum.


Empire is gone. We’ve moved on from that even though you like to claim we haven’t.

However, we did have the most successful empire of the lot though.
 
A101
Posts: 1959
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:40 pm

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Are you seriously saying that's how you get a 2/3 majority? You're grasping at straws and calling the UK electorate of the time gullible, at the very least.



Im not say anything about 2/3 majority, you are referencing a referenda after the fact and after the a majority on hear claims about EU lies. The referenda was based on lies before and after we joined those are the facts.


The facts are the EEC allowed the UK to turn around its economy. Just as predicted.


yep the economy achieved a remarkable turnaround, when we joined the EEC, in the first ten years our car manufacturing, steel industry and textiles industry were heavily impacted with a number of plants closing, unemployment reached above 5% and inflation soar to 20% by 1980


JJJ wrote:
It offers the best framework for success, the best protection for our standard of living, the best foundation for better prosperity


The part of "Why can't we go at it alone?" should have been compulsory reading before the 2016 referendum.


So the campaign material should be treated as gospel now, interesting




JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Responsible for the British empire is a romantic way of saying clinging to an outdated worldview.


Really the UK went the a period of decolonisation up to around the 1960 once those regions were secure enough for independence, unlike the French and French Indochina


It's not like the UK didn't have its share of colonial wars and uprisings post-WW2.


Yes while the UK military has been very active except for Suez & Mau Mau all actions up to the mid 1960's were in support if independence or in response to a request for aid


JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
And of course the UK remained in stagnation for a decade after joining the EEC, there were two major world crises right after the UK joined.


You can’t lay the blame solely on energy crisis of 73& 79


I am not, I'm merely saying there's no noticeable difference between growth rates post-76 between UK, France and Germany, and the UK even recovers better from '79 than either.


I think you will find that was direct result from Thatcher reforms

JJJ wrote:


Whatever that link was to it failed my side just came up blank

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Suppressed? I guess that pamphlet was printed in clandestine shops and circulated in back alleys? There was a healthy debate going back to the 50s amplified with EFTA failure and unsuccessful early pushes for membership (vetoed by De Gaulle).



You know what I’m talking about the political manoeuvres on what it really meant to join the EEC and the moves to show that it was more of a trade organisation than a view to a political union as they knew the electorate would not support it, as to why Heath abandoning of a referenda before joining public opinion at the time was against joining


And I am saying that the fact that the EEC was going to be much, much more than a simple trade organisation was known from day one.

It's in the pamphlets, it's in the manifestos, it's in the contemporary political discussions. You had to be blind or absolutely uninterested in politics to claim you were duped, and the referendum spoke clearly.



It was also part of the office to spin the EEC to what it wanted that the government was putting out, clearly they were pro EU and that reflected the manner in which the campaign was conducted. the 2016 campaign happened with judgements over the last 40 odd years and have seen the direction of the EU first hand and how it interacts with the UK, in 75 there really was nothing to compare it too
 
A101
Posts: 1959
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:41 pm

marcelh wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Your joke is actually very telling. You don't care about the rest of the UK who enjoy football in this case.........


Really you must be a very good psychologist if you get that just from my preference to which sport I prefer.


Ah, just playing with the colonies.....



least I'm consistent

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