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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:06 pm

par13del wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
par13del wrote:
Something just does not sound right about that statement.


Why? The UK was always a sovereign state, so they are allowed to chose a dead road if they please. The UK isn't a child which has a caretaker to make sure nothing dire happens to it.

I guess your populist comment is lost in the shuffle, the millions of folks who are in the EU and loving it and enjoying the fruits are populist, but somehow, if a lot of people support something not aligned with someone else's believe the word populist is applied to them in a derogatory fashion.


It is not just because I just disagree with something I call it the populist movement, I disagree with so many things........

It is just sad to see that there is no real plan, ow they have "won". Politics isn't a gentleman game, it has serious consequences. Populists do have a no plan, except then to trash the institutions and the perceived elites.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:20 am

Dutchy wrote:
It is not just because I just disagree with something I call it the populist movement, I disagree with so many things........



You are conflating what you actually said and backtracking on you’re intent of the word populist and derogatory in which you want to combined Brexit, Tories and the electorate as populist when it’s far from the truth, one can also call remain a populist movement as well.

If you agree with it or not is not the issue, most issues generally follow a trend which can be viewed as populist such as
OWS, #Metoo and the Greta thunberg is described as a climate populist. Most populist ideology is political motivated

Dutchy wrote:
It is just sad to see that there is no real plan, ow they have "won". Politics isn't a gentleman game, it has serious consequences. Populists do have a no plan, except then to trash the institutions and the perceived elites.


The leave movement has been around in various forms since the day PM Heath signed “The European Communities Act 1972” Cameron really started the ball rolling for vastly different reasons in which it backfired on him badly just as Teresa May was not a true believer in leaving the EU hence why it became a dogs breakfast, Cameron & May were certainly no leave populist or do you disagree?
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:22 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It is not just because I just disagree with something I call it the populist movement, I disagree with so many things........



You are conflating what you actually said and backtracking on you’re intent of the word populist and derogatory in which you want to combined Brexit, Tories and the electorate as populist when it’s far from the truth, one can also call remain a populist movement as well.

If you agree with it or not is not the issue, most issues generally follow a trend which can be viewed as populist such as
OWS, #Metoo and the Greta thunberg is described as a climate populist. Most populist ideology is political motivated

Dutchy wrote:
It is just sad to see that there is no real plan, ow they have "won". Politics isn't a gentleman game, it has serious consequences. Populists do have a no plan, except then to trash the institutions and the perceived elites.


The leave movement has been around in various forms since the day PM Heath signed “The European Communities Act 1972” Cameron really started the ball rolling for vastly different reasons in which it backfired on him badly just as Teresa May was not a true believer in leaving the EU hence why it became a dogs breakfast, Cameron & May were certainly no leave populist or do you disagree?


Populism = a political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups.

Seems a lot of folk, including - evidently - native english speakers, don’t understand the difference between “popular” and “populist”. Or we’re back in that place where people toss around words without knowing what they actually mean?

Are Brexiteers populist? Let’s see:

UK Independent judiciary = “enemy of the people.”

UK Bureaucracy = “establishment” trying to “stitch” everyone up

UK Business = “F<>k business”

Experts = “sick and tired of them” (till a pandemic comes along, and suddenly they’re all the rage)

And so on.

You could argue that not all Brexiteers are populists, but it’s safe to say that all populists are Brexiteers (even the foreign ones, like Bannon and the Breitbart crowd).

No, it’s not a derogatory term - it’s proponents wear it as a badge of honour. That they all support it while you don’t (or perhaps do) doesn’t make them less Brexity.

And yes, Greta is a climate populist. She too hates the great unseen establishment that is plotting to undermine ordinary people like her. Different cause; same ideological framework: Blame the establishment/elites blah blah.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:29 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It is not just because I just disagree with something I call it the populist movement, I disagree with so many things........



You are conflating what you actually said and backtracking on you’re intent of the word populist and derogatory in which you want to combined Brexit, Tories and the electorate as populist when it’s far from the truth, one can also call remain a populist movement as well.

If you agree with it or not is not the issue, most issues generally follow a trend which can be viewed as populist such as
OWS, #Metoo and the Greta thunberg is described as a climate populist. Most populist ideology is political motivated


What ElPistolero said. Brexit is a populist movement, nobody in their right mind would disagree with it.

I think it is funny that you chose to attack it and the way you did it, is even funnier. Old Soviet-style propaganda trick, whataboutism.

"backtracking on you’re intent" So now you are an expert on my intentions, and you see some backtracking on it :lol: , quite a bizarre statement, don't even know to begin to formulate an answer to it.

#Metoo isn't a populist movement, it is a moral one.

Greta Thunberg some aspects maybe, she is still a youngster. One important difference though, Brexiteers seem to dismiss science, Thunberg embraces it. Populist movement catchphrase seems to be, if something doesn't feel right, it can't be right, ignoring facts.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:34 am

A101 wrote:
UK will refuse any EU offer to extend Brexit transition

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.ft. ... 987045517f


David Frost, the UK’s chief negotiator, tweeted that “extending would simply prolong negotiations, create even more uncertainty, leave us liable to pay more to the EU in future, and keep us bound by evolving EU laws at a time when we need to control our own affairs. In short, it is not in the UK's interest to extend”.



I was laughing yesterday reading this. The UK should up its game and stop to try to stop using negotiation book for dummies tricks. The UK claim it will refuse an offer that was never made....... All the EU is saying is time for negotiation is too short, but if you want to go the WTO way,no time needed.
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:13 am

Olddog wrote:
A101 wrote:
UK will refuse any EU offer to extend Brexit transition

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.ft. ... 987045517f


David Frost, the UK’s chief negotiator, tweeted that “extending would simply prolong negotiations, create even more uncertainty, leave us liable to pay more to the EU in future, and keep us bound by evolving EU laws at a time when we need to control our own affairs. In short, it is not in the UK's interest to extend”.



I was laughing yesterday reading this. The UK should up its game and stop to try to stop using negotiation book for dummies tricks. The UK claim it will refuse an offer that was never made....... All the EU is saying is time for negotiation is too short, but if you want to go the WTO way,no time needed.


The UK should just make up its mind. The negotiation room with the EU is clear, if they don't like it, then just say so and do a hard Brexit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:55 am

Dutchy wrote:
Olddog wrote:
A101 wrote:
UK will refuse any EU offer to extend Brexit transition

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.ft. ... 987045517f



I was laughing yesterday reading this. The UK should up its game and stop to try to stop using negotiation book for dummies tricks. The UK claim it will refuse an offer that was never made....... All the EU is saying is time for negotiation is too short, but if you want to go the WTO way,no time needed.


The UK should just make up its mind. The negotiation room with the EU is clear, if they don't like it, then just say so and do a hard Brexit.


Indeed, why is the UK constantly trying to pick a fight over something the EU has said many many times it is perfectly okay with as an outcome, either way?

Nobody in the EU talks about the UK or Brexit any longer, yet every so many days there's some UK official feeling the irresistible need to confirm the UK's proud resolve to categorically refuse an extension, yet this question was never raised by the EU! It's merely an option which needs to be triggered by the one constantly ruling it out, so what's the point of AGAIN informing the world you're not going to do it?

The way in which the UK -now a third country- is clearly unable to mentally detach itself from the EU starts to feel a lot like an ex-girlfriend constantly posting silly memes on your facebook about how great it is being single again, while you really don't have time for her any longer, since -contrary to her- you're seriously dating someone else already.

The only explanation I can come up with is that the concept of a British government somehow being engaged in a heroid struggle to free itself from mythical chains which extend all the way to Brussels, Paris and Berlin is clearly so politically rewarding domestically, that it can not be stopped. This obsession with something that is now done and dusted should give away just how easy it is for British politicians to look forward and reach out to those they will need... still no workable plan then, isn't it? Tsss...

It's highly pathetic in fact, because the extension is a pure technicallity: either Britain extends the transition period by say a year and thus buys more time to reach a deal with the EU, or it doesn't, in which case there simply is not enough time to ratify a deal meaning the UK will automatically revert to WTO rules.... and will still have to negotiate the same deal with the EU as before albeit from a less favourable position.
Why on earth would you do that? Why would you force your economy to go through 2 transitions: one to WTO terms and then one back up in a couple of years, if you can avoid it?
Just how painful is it to have to eat a teaspoon of humble pie over a technical 1-year extension to achieve exactly what you said you would duing an election campaign which gave you a sweeping majority only a couple of months ago? Or were the promisses then, not the real plan after all? A bit like in the referendum campaign?
Moving goalposts seems to be something very British indeed once power is firlmy in your hands.
A FPTP system seems to make such easily possible.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:54 am

Can any of the EU cheerleaders explain to me why it is a good thing that EU citizens cannot listen to US radio stations online?
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:09 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
Can any of the EU cheerleaders explain to me why it is a good thing that EU citizens cannot listen to US radio stations online?


?????

https://www.radio.fr/country/usa
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A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:21 am

ElPistolero wrote:

Populism = a political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups.

Seems a lot of folk, including - evidently - native english speakers, don’t understand the difference between “popular” and “populist”. Or we’re back in that place where people toss around words without knowing what they actually mean?
Are Brexiteers populist? Let’s see:

UK Independent judiciary = “enemy of the people.”

UK Bureaucracy = “establishment” trying to “stitch” everyone up

UK Business = “F<>k business”

Experts = “sick and tired of them” (till a pandemic comes along, and suddenly they’re all the rage)

And so on.

You could argue that not all Brexiteers are populists, but it’s safe to say that all populists are Brexiteers (even the foreign ones, like Bannon and the Breitbart crowd).

No, it’s not a derogatory term - it’s proponents wear it as a badge of honour. That they all support it while you don’t (or perhaps do) doesn’t make them less Brexity.

And yes, Greta is a climate populist. She too hates the great unseen establishment that is plotting to undermine ordinary people like her. Different cause; same ideological framework: Blame the establishment/elites blah blah.



Seems to be you think you are the preeminent scholar on what English people know or don’t know.

Populism takes many forms but as I said it’s main attraction is political motivation whether or not it is a political figure jumping on the bandwagon of a popular and growing movement or to lead the general populace in a particular direction from the supposed corrupt elite.

And yes the term is often used as a political insult, it’s been labeled against the likes of Jeremy Corbyn, Donald Trump and Boris Johnson the so called elites, so yes pending on your own political position calling out someone is and can be a political insult
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:35 am

Olddog wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Can any of the EU cheerleaders explain to me why it is a good thing that EU citizens cannot listen to US radio stations online?


?????

https://www.radio.fr/country/usa


He's referring to the habit of several US websites and content producers to choose not to allow traffic to EU IP addresses rather than make sure their privacy, cookie and content conforms to EU regulations.

Of course, that gets spun into "the EU bans it" rather than "the website can't be arsed to check if it conforms to local laws"..

I would spin it the other way around - why do US websites think it's a good thing to block visitors from the EU when everyone else has no problem adjusting their cookie policy etc.?

(That's when it's not big US media companies trying to control access instead...)
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:48 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
Can any of the EU cheerleaders explain to me why it is a good thing that EU citizens cannot listen to US radio stations online?

Nothing stopping them listening to US stations, apart from US stations. A lot of yank websites refuse to comply with GPDR (because they can't flog your data on to all and sundry) and thus they choose not serve EU users rather than face the fine for non-compliance.

But if you're happy enough to have all the data these sites eventually hold about you (you'd be surprised how much they do hold) flogged to the lowest bidder, outwith the protections of the EU, feel free to use a proxy/VPN.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:56 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
I would spin it the other way around - why do US websites think it's a good thing to block visitors from the EU when everyone else has no problem adjusting their cookie policy etc.?


Or better even - which EU consumer and customer protection rule(s) - fully supported by the UK(*) - do these US websites don't like, and why exactly is that?

And relating back to Brexit - will that consumer and customer protection rule be removed and if so, why does the UK government suddenly thinks it is a good idea to protect their citizens less than before?


(*): GDPR was unanimously adopted as EU Regulation 2016/679, at the EU Council on April 8th 2016, with full support of the British government.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:12 pm

Dutchy wrote:
.
What ElPistolero said. Brexit is a populist movement, nobody in their right mind would disagree with it.


It only became one due to Cameron calling a referenda, until that point for the electorate the EU was merely an annoyance that raise its head above the parapet every once in a while

Dutchy wrote:

I think it is funny that you chose to attack it and the way you did it, is even funnier. Old Soviet-style propaganda trick, whataboutism.


nothing what I posted is a “Old Soviet-style propaganda trick, whataboutism” as you put it, but merely to make an illustration. But I have noticed a trend of reds under the bed mentality from a lot of your posts throughout the forum, you seem to have some sort of warped throwback towards McCarthyism.




Dutchy wrote:
"backtracking on you’re intent" So now you are an expert on my intentions, and you see some backtracking on it



Can only respond to what you post and the tone in which you post within the thread




Dutchy wrote:
#Metoo isn't a populist movement, it is a moral one.





Whilst the #MeToo movement started with compassion and moral fibre it to is in the same category as the elite celebrities have used their own brand to increase its media profile with its ultimate aim being an advocate for changes to laws and policies within society which is political motivation just as all of those movements are that I illustrated, the common denominator is they all have aspects of political motivation which in turn create a populist movement to create and bring pressure on political office.


Dutchy wrote:

Greta Thunberg some aspects maybe, she is still a youngster. One important difference though, Brexiteers seem to dismiss science, Thunberg embraces it. Populist movement catchphrase seems to be, if something doesn't feel right, it can't be right, ignoring facts.


All Thunberg has become is the face of a media driven populist green movement in which it boils down to political ideological motivation, but once again the bias and preconceived judgement towards those who voted leave has clouded your thinking on Brexit tar all with the same brush.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:20 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Olddog wrote:

I was laughing yesterday reading this. The UK should up its game and stop to try to stop using negotiation book for dummies tricks. The UK claim it will refuse an offer that was never made....... All the EU is saying is time for negotiation is too short, but if you want to go the WTO way,no time needed.


The UK should just make up its mind. The negotiation room with the EU is clear, if they don't like it, then just say so and do a hard Brexit.


Indeed, why is the UK constantly trying to pick a fight over something the EU has said many many times it is perfectly okay with as an outcome, either way?

Nobody in the EU talks about the UK or Brexit any longer, yet every so many days there's some UK official feeling the irresistible need to confirm the UK's proud resolve to categorically refuse an extension, yet this question was never raised by the EU! It's merely an option which needs to be triggered by the one constantly ruling it out, so what's the point of AGAIN informing the world you're not going to do it?

The way in which the UK -now a third country- is clearly unable to mentally detach itself from the EU starts to feel a lot like an ex-girlfriend constantly posting silly memes on your facebook about how great it is being single again, while you really don't have time for her any longer, since -contrary to her- you're seriously dating someone else already.

The only explanation I can come up with is that the concept of a British government somehow being engaged in a heroid struggle to free itself from mythical chains which extend all the way to Brussels, Paris and Berlin is clearly so politically rewarding domestically, that it can not be stopped. This obsession with something that is now done and dusted should give away just how easy it is for British politicians to look forward and reach out to those they will need... still no workable plan then, isn't it? Tsss...

It's highly pathetic in fact, because the extension is a pure technicallity: either Britain extends the transition period by say a year and thus buys more time to reach a deal with the EU, or it doesn't, in which case there simply is not enough time to ratify a deal meaning the UK will automatically revert to WTO rules.... and will still have to negotiate the same deal with the EU as before albeit from a less favourable position.
Why on earth would you do that? Why would you force your economy to go through 2 transitions: one to WTO terms and then one back up in a couple of years, if you can avoid it?
Just how painful is it to have to eat a teaspoon of humble pie over a technical 1-year extension to achieve exactly what you said you would duing an election campaign which gave you a sweeping majority only a couple of months ago? Or were the promisses then, not the real plan after all? A bit like in the referendum campaign?
Moving goalposts seems to be something very British indeed once power is firlmy in your hands.
A FPTP system seems to make such easily possible.


Really if that’s the case why keep sounding the alarm that negotiations cannot be completed by the end of the transition period and continue to use the media to whip pressure to extend, it’s not hard to find in the media that thecEU does actully talk about it and the need to extend, if it’s no drama to thecEU either way then tell them to shut the feckin up.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:57 pm

A101 wrote:
Seems to be you think you are the preeminent scholar on what English people know or don’t know.


Not really. Just a big believer in not making up new meanings for words that have already been clearly defined. I suppose you could call me the preeminent user of a dictionary. And the preeminent proponent of people checking dictionaries before trying to make up meanings.

A101 wrote:
Populism takes many forms but as I said it’s main attraction is political motivation whether or not it is a political figure jumping on the bandwagon of a popular and growing movement or to lead the general populace in a particular direction from the supposed corrupt elite.


That’s a truism. Populism is just a political framework that assumes that the elite/establishment blah blah operates counter to what’s in the best interests of the “ordinary“ folk. It can be harnessed by anyone across the political spectrum. Nationalist populists - the type who label their political opponents “traitors” (I think it was the Daily Telegraph that called remainer Tory MPs that) fall on the right wing. Greta and her environment populists fall on the left wing.

A101 wrote:
And yes the term is often used as a political insult, it’s been labeled against the likes of Jeremy Corbyn, Donald Trump and Boris Johnson the so called elites, so yes pending on your own political position calling out someone is and can be a political insult


So what?

Right wingers in the US think “liberal” and “socialist” are insults. Some Brexiteers think ”internationalist” and “globalist” are insults. I find that those who identify as “liberals” or “socialists” could care less.

Anyway, here’s what one of your more prominent Brexiteers has to say about Brexit:

“Populism has triumphed as we return to being a self-governing, independent, normal nation.”

In case you’re wondering, it’s a piece authored by the man listed in its title: “NIGEL FARAGE: POPULISM IS JUST BEGINNING”

https://www.newsweek.com/farage-brexit- ... ow-1484705

Like I said, self-proclaimed populists tend to be Brexiteers. Their vote counts as much as yours. Brexit is as much a “populist victory” as it is whatever you consider it to be.

If you don’t like that, well, too bad. Still not an insult.
 
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Number6
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:18 pm

Whilst we’re discussing dictionaries and word meanings, A101, the correct word for a referendum is Referendum. Referenda is the plural of referendum and refers to more than one. Sorry, it’s just been bothering me. :)
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:12 pm

A101 wrote:
why keep sounding the alarm that negotiations cannot be completed by the end of the transition period and continue to use the media to whip pressure to extend?


I don't know if you've actually noticed, but it's not the EU, but rather the IMF which is sounding the alarm bell as of recently.
Or do you throw them all together: eurozone, schengenzone, EU, EFTA, EEA, OECD, IMF, UEFA, ECJ, ECHR, ..
All these continental letter sprews are so confusing, aren't they? :spit:

At present the official desire of the UK government is not to extend the transition period and still get a deal along the lines previously agreed in the PD; which was quite a challenging position to start with, but has now become simply impossible due to an urgent and unexpected lack of time as well as resources, which inconveniently for Brexiteers is not to be blamed on Brussels, but on the corona pandemic.

So now basically everybody in the whole wide world wants to know which of the two the UK prioritises over the other one: the date at which the change will happen, or the scetched outline of that change for which they have been planning as good as they possibly could?

If it's the date which will take priority over the form of changes ahead, others may have a few words to say about the consequences of that unilateral choice, as it means they will have to prepare for something radically different (i.e. WTO rules) then what they were preparing for up until now based on what the British government told them in fact, only to revert back to something in between shortly thereafter then, at least if the UK is still willing to go for a FTA with the EU... Not really very respectful, is it? Unless the WTO state suddenly has become the desired end state after all then?
But then all other parties involved would like to be notified of this important change and not be taken for a bunch of fools by the UK on this as well!
The concept of sovereignty is that you can chose to play with whom you want, not that you can expect others to just dance to your tune.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:41 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
.
What ElPistolero said. Brexit is a populist movement, nobody in their right mind would disagree with it.


It only became one due to Cameron calling a referenda, until that point for the electorate the EU was merely an annoyance that raise its head above the parapet every once in a while


Not true, and it is still a populist movement, one has only to look at Farage and the likes. Don't shift blame to Cameron as you like to do. Just take responsibility for what you believe in, with all the bad things and perceived good things. Although we all know you will be looking at it from a distance.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

I think it is funny that you chose to attack it and the way you did it, is even funnier. Old Soviet-style propaganda trick, whataboutism.


nothing what I posted is a “Old Soviet-style propaganda trick, whataboutism” as you put it, but merely to make an illustration. But I have noticed a trend of reds under the bed mentality from a lot of your posts throughout the forum, you seem to have some sort of warped throwback towards McCarthyism.


McCarthyism :lol: oh boy, been called a lot of things, but this is new. But perhaps you found that my post tend to be pro-freedom and anti-populist / autocratic regimes. Then you would be right, good observation 8-)

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
"backtracking on you’re intent" So now you are an expert on my intentions, and you see some backtracking on it


Can only respond to what you post and the tone in which you post within the thread


The tone is your interpretation and you were the one who said: "backtracking on you’re intent", that is neither content or tone, so that in itself makes you incoherent, again.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
#Metoo isn't a populist movement, it is a moral one.


Whilst the #MeToo movement started with compassion and moral fibre it to is in the same category as the elite celebrities have used their own brand to increase its media profile with its ultimate aim being an advocate for changes to laws and policies within society which is political motivation just as all of those movements are that I illustrated, the common denominator is they all have aspects of political motivation which in turn create a populist movement to create and bring pressure on political office.


If you mean by political motivation: rape and sexual assault isn't ok in society, then you are right, I guess. I let to believe that it wasn't a political issue anymore, guess you don't feel like that.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Greta Thunberg some aspects maybe, she is still a youngster. One important difference though, Brexiteers seem to dismiss science, Thunberg embraces it. Populist movement catchphrase seems to be, if something doesn't feel right, it can't be right, ignoring facts.


All Thunberg has become is the face of a media driven populist green movement in which it boils down to political-ideological motivation, but once again the bias and preconceived judgement towards those who voted leave has clouded your thinking on Brexit tar all with the same brush.


Can you please explain to me what is political about the massage we should listen to climate scientists and make sure we preserve our way of life, not for you at retirement age, not even for me in my 40-ish, but for teenager and younger. Point being, just like building dikes, combating climate change should not be political, we should all act for the benefits of future generations.
You really have a boomer-attitude, such a shame that that generation has ruined a lot in the western world, we need to correct that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:43 pm

Olddog wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Can any of the EU cheerleaders explain to me why it is a good thing that EU citizens cannot listen to US radio stations online?


?????

https://www.radio.fr/country/usa


Does not work
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:04 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Can any of the EU cheerleaders explain to me why it is a good thing that EU citizens cannot listen to US radio stations online?


?????

https://www.radio.fr/country/usa


Does not work


It does here. Something's wrong on your end.
 
Ertro
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:23 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Can any of the EU cheerleaders explain to me why it is a good thing that EU citizens cannot listen to US radio stations online?


I had no idea there is any problem listening to US internet radio stations as I do that all the time myself.
I went to check and chose one station at random and again had no problem starting listening
https://www.internet-radio.com/station/xrds/

In here you can see on the map all the ~100 listeners that this mississippi based radio station has and to me it looks like close to 50% of listeners are from europe.

There might be technical problems based on your computer. This webpage seems to offer 6 possible ways to listen and for me 2 of them works. Second from left works and the farmost right one also works on my linux box just click on the icons. I am sure I could get some of the others to also work if I could be bothered.

Checked also on my android phone which I don't usually use for this and the most rightmost icon started playing right away. That is enough testing for me.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:59 pm

Ertro wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Can any of the EU cheerleaders explain to me why it is a good thing that EU citizens cannot listen to US radio stations online?


I had no idea there is any problem listening to US internet radio stations as I do that all the time myself.
I went to check and chose one station at random and again had no problem starting listening
https://www.internet-radio.com/station/xrds/

In here you can see on the map all the ~100 listeners that this mississippi based radio station has and to me it looks like close to 50% of listeners are from europe.

There might be technical problems based on your computer. This webpage seems to offer 6 possible ways to listen and for me 2 of them works. Second from left works and the farmost right one also works on my linux box just click on the icons. I am sure I could get some of the others to also work if I could be bothered.

Checked also on my android phone which I don't usually use for this and the most rightmost icon started playing right away. That is enough testing for me.


No, must be the evil EU´s fault. At least this is a good example of why it is pointless to discuss the topic with Brexiteers.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:48 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
.
Not really. Just a big believer in not making up new meanings for words that have already been clearly defined. I suppose you could call me the preeminent user of a dictionary. And the preeminent proponent of people checking dictionaries before trying to make up meanings.



Which doesn’t mean I’m wrong either, there are a lot of words that continue to evolve over time from one era to the next and have different meanings to different generations, that’s why a dictionary is a reference and is updated from time to time with some words definition change overtime

ElPistolero wrote:
So what?

Right wingers in the US think “liberal” and “socialist” are insults. Some Brexiteers think ”internationalist” and “globalist” are insults. I find that those who identify as “liberals” or “socialists” could care less.

Anyway, here’s what one of your more prominent Brexiteers has to say about Brexit:

“Populism has triumphed as we return to being a self-governing, independent, normal nation.”

In case you’re wondering, it’s a piece authored by the man listed in its title: “NIGEL FARAGE: POPULISM IS JUST BEGINNING”

https://www.newsweek.com/farage-brexit- ... ow-1484705

Like I said, self-proclaimed populists tend to be Brexiteers. Their vote counts as much as yours. Brexit is as much a “populist victory” as it is whatever you consider it to be.

If you don’t like that, well, too bad. Still not an insult.




Your debating populism in general instead of the intent and tone of what dutchy wrote and it’s intent was to insult, whether you identify with it as an insult or not is not the point.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:50 pm

seahawk wrote:
Ertro wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Can any of the EU cheerleaders explain to me why it is a good thing that EU citizens cannot listen to US radio stations online?


I had no idea there is any problem listening to US internet radio stations as I do that all the time myself.
I went to check and chose one station at random and again had no problem starting listening
https://www.internet-radio.com/station/xrds/

In here you can see on the map all the ~100 listeners that this mississippi based radio station has and to me it looks like close to 50% of listeners are from europe.

There might be technical problems based on your computer. This webpage seems to offer 6 possible ways to listen and for me 2 of them works. Second from left works and the farmost right one also works on my linux box just click on the icons. I am sure I could get some of the others to also work if I could be bothered.

Checked also on my android phone which I don't usually use for this and the most rightmost icon started playing right away. That is enough testing for me.


No, must be the evil EU´s fault. At least this is a good example of why it is pointless to discuss the topic with Brexiteers.


Lol - hilarious but true. You would’ve thought a claim like that would be accompanied by a link to - or excerpt from - an EU regulation. But no - just a random claim with nothing to support it.

Some folk are willing to believe and repeat just about anything if it suits them. Makes you wonder about how susceptible to foreign bots some folk actually are.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:51 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
.
I don't know if you've actually noticed, but it's not the EU, but rather the IMF which is sounding the alarm bell as of recently



Yes they are the most recent, but if you care to look you will find that a number of calls within the EU for the UK to extend the transition phase

sabenapilot wrote:

At present the official desire of the UK government is not to extend the transition period and still get a deal along the lines previously agreed in the PD; which was quite a challenging position to start with, but has now become simply impossible due to an urgent and unexpected lack of time as well as resources,



All the government has done is reiterate its position so they are no misconceptions as to when the UK regains it’s full sovereign control from Brussels

The time line was always demanding and most just recognise that it’s in the interests of the UK to continue its present course of action. There have been a lot of comparison on the time line with CETA and the UK position that it had taken 7 years of negotiations, for all we know we might end up like the EU-US with no trade deal and we end up in the same position at the end of extended transition period at the expense of billions to the EU which can benefit UK citizens more. After all there are no guarantees in the trade negotiations

sabenapilot wrote:

which inconveniently for Brexiteers is not to be blamed on Brussels, but on the corona pandemic.



Is everything a pro leave conspiracy against the EU?

sabenapilot wrote:
So now basically everybody in the whole wide world wants to know which of the two the UK prioritises over the other one: the date at which the change will happen, or the scetched outline of that change for which they have been planning as good as they possibly could?


Very broad statement, the government have stated its position

sabenapilot wrote:

it's the date which will take priority over the form of changes ahead, others may have a few words to say about the consequences of that unilateral choice, as it means they will have to prepare for something radically different (i.e. WTO rules) then what they were preparing for up until now based on what the British government told them in fact, only to revert back to something in between shortly thereafter then, at least if the UK is still willing to go for a FTA with the EU... Not really very respectful, is it? Unless the WTO state suddenly has become the desired end state after all then?
But then all other parties involved would like to be notified of this important change and not be taken for a bunch of fools by the UK on this as well!


Are you so certain that the EU/UK will reach a trade deal within the extra time of extending the transition knowing the divergence between the two positions. I certainly don’t think a comprehensive agreement will happen, a short term interim agreement to keep trade moving smoothly between the two yes but a comprehensive agreement no

sabenapilot wrote:
The concept of sovereignty is that you can chose to play with whom you want, not that you can expect others to just dance to your tune.


That plays both ways
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:31 pm

JJJ wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Olddog wrote:


Does not work


It does here. Something's wrong on your end.


See attached.

Attachments not working
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:36 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Ertro wrote:

I had no idea there is any problem listening to US internet radio stations as I do that all the time myself.
I went to check and chose one station at random and again had no problem starting listening
https://www.internet-radio.com/station/xrds/

In here you can see on the map all the ~100 listeners that this mississippi based radio station has and to me it looks like close to 50% of listeners are from europe.

There might be technical problems based on your computer. This webpage seems to offer 6 possible ways to listen and for me 2 of them works. Second from left works and the farmost right one also works on my linux box just click on the icons. I am sure I could get some of the others to also work if I could be bothered.

Checked also on my android phone which I don't usually use for this and the most rightmost icon started playing right away. That is enough testing for me.


No, must be the evil EU´s fault. At least this is a good example of why it is pointless to discuss the topic with Brexiteers.


Lol - hilarious but true. You would’ve thought a claim like that would be accompanied by a link to - or excerpt from - an EU regulation. But no - just a random claim with nothing to support it.

Some folk are willing to believe and repeat just about anything if it suits them. Makes you wonder about how susceptible to foreign bots some folk actually are.


Are you in the UK?

If you are, or within an EU nation, try listening CBS NYC via their site and see what happens.

I’ve tried to attach a screenshot, but it is not working.

https://1010wins.radio.com/
 
Ertro
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:21 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
Are you in the UK?

If you are, or within an EU nation, try listening CBS NYC via their site and see what happens.

I’ve tried to attach a screenshot, but it is not working.

https://1010wins.radio.com/


I don't quite understand your position.

Are you against if somebody in far away countries wants to say that they are sovereign and they own their own website and they want to set up border controls to keep foreigners like you out?

or Are you against EU being sovereign capable of making their own laws and so are you siding with some foreign company which seems to have a problem with EU being sovereign and making their own laws? Any country or somebody like EU should not make laws that might not be liked by some foreigners in far away countries?

Or do you want to argue for some co-operation over individual nations to make sure that no single place can make laws that others do not share so we can avoid conflicts like this and borders between nations?

Or if you just want to access the website and not make a political point whatever it might be you can just setup a VPN like most people should use anyway.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:39 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
seahawk wrote:

No, must be the evil EU´s fault. At least this is a good example of why it is pointless to discuss the topic with Brexiteers.


Lol - hilarious but true. You would’ve thought a claim like that would be accompanied by a link to - or excerpt from - an EU regulation. But no - just a random claim with nothing to support it.

Some folk are willing to believe and repeat just about anything if it suits them. Makes you wonder about how susceptible to foreign bots some folk actually are.


Are you in the UK?

If you are, or within an EU nation, try listening CBS NYC via their site and see what happens.

I’ve tried to attach a screenshot, but it is not working.

https://1010wins.radio.com/

The reason for it has been given above ad infinitum. The station itself has chosen not to allow listeners from the EU because it can't be arsed complying with GPDR requirements (ie it can't make money from your data/details). Having control of your own data is a good thing, that's why countries/states/provinces the world over are adopting similar data protection standards (including the UK after transition).

I'm sure a super smart guy like yourself can figure out the stupidly easy work-around if you're that desperate to listen to it but I'm guessing it's more about producing some more moronic anti-eu drivel.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:20 am

Please keep this thread on topic, this is not about companies outside of the EU who do not want to apply General Data Protection Regulation rules, so please discuss it in a spearate thread if you want to continue this discussion. Thanks.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:23 am

SQ22 wrote:
Please keep this thread on topic, this is not about companies outside of the EU who do not want to apply General Data Protection Regulation rules, so please discuss it in a spearate thread if you want to continue this discussion. Thanks.


To be honest, this discussion is relevant. Brexiteers want to be independent of EU rules and want the UK to be able to set their own rules. However, setting your own rules have consequences. This case shows that the consequence of setting own regulation (EU's GDPR) result in companies in a third country (USA) deciding not to serve the customers from that particular company. This is an example of what's goin to happen when the UK decides to set regulation which is not in line with EU regulation and shows that EU regulation have not only impact on EU companies, but also impacts companies in a third country (this case USA, but in future also UK) . As such it does have a link to the whole Brexit discussion (the discusion is not about GDPR itself, it's about how EU law will impact third countries and thus the whole "being sovereign" argument should be put into a different perspective The irony is that a Brexiteer claims that it's the EU fault that a company of a third country excercise its right not to serve customers from the EU. Or better, no matter what happens, the Brexiteers will blame the EU regardless of what the reason is why the Brexiteer will be deprived of his right to listen to a certain ardio station.

Also note that it's relevant as GDPR is one of the EU laws which will have a severe impact on the UK should the UK abandon GDPR. In essence, should the UK abandon GDPR, UK firms will still need to comply with GDPR unless they don't want to serve EU citizens. This will be a major issue for online retailers (though they've already implemented GDPR and thus will follow GDPR anyway).

Again, this discussion is not about GDPR itself, it's used as an example to show what the UK can expect if it wants to be "sovereign".
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:27 am

Just a follow-up on the Romanians which will work on UK farms. It seems that there is more attached to it. However, the benefit is that the UK now discovers that its bureacratic but also cultural procedures are also not helping out. Moreover, it seens that the farmers aren't exactly making it easy to hire British persons to help. Wonder how much of these bureaucratic rules exists which will emerge once we have a hard Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/apr/17/british-workers-reject-fruit-picking-jobs-as-romanians-flown-in-coronavirus
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:30 am

A101 wrote:
most just recognise that it’s in the interests of the UK to continue its present course of action.


That's new to me: could you please share the many sources regognising such?

I thought even the UK government officially quantified a 'no deal' outcome as a lot more damaging to the UK's economy that a FTA?
Oh, I almost forgot: that shortfall will be more than made good with the huge benefits from a trade deal with the UK, wasn't it?
You really want me to post the figures here again???

Or are you talking not about economic intersts now, but political?

In which case I agree: some people in Westminster have built their political career on getting the hardest of Brexits in for the posh elites sponsoring their election campaigns and can under no circumstances whatsoever be seen to compromise on their position, even if it costs millions of ordianary working people outside of Westminster thousands of pounds extra for the rest of their lives...
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:06 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
In which case I agree: some people in Westminster have built their political career on getting the hardest of Brexits in for the posh elites sponsoring their election campaigns and can under no circumstances whatsoever be seen to compromise on their position, even if it costs millions of ordianary working people outside of Westminster thousands of pounds extra for the rest of their lives...

I think what will get lost in all of this is that until the last election, all the elitist in the UK parliament and political class who could be regarded as persons out of touch with the ordinary man in the street were all ardent supporters of the EU (even if they gave the impression of holding their noses) and did all within their power to thwart the will of the people in a vote that they could not overturn by non-ballot means.

If they had used their jobs as statesmen to come together the current situation would not exist, instead they continued in campaign mode, denigrating each other, continue the blame game, continued talking down to the people and ultimately made it an us or them issue at the ballot box. So yes, those now in power at least in the House are now majority Brexiters, how they got there will be an endless debate.
 
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:38 pm

par13del wrote:
I think what will get lost in all of this is that until the last election, all the elitist in the UK parliament and political class who could be regarded as persons out of touch with the ordinary man in the street were all ardent supporters of the EU


You think JRM for instance is not an elitist out of touch with ordinary man? ROTFL

The elite of the UK is not to be found debating eachother in Parliament, par13del.
The elite of the UK are of much lower profile and often fairly unknown to the general public, yet they stear the political parties through their multi-million donations to them, a bit like club owners of football clubs do; politicians are nothing but well paid players on the field of politics: they pretend to play for all club supporters, but in fact they only care for the happy few ones hidden somewhere high up in the VIP lounges, because those are the ones who will decide on their next promotion/transfer.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:24 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
seahawk wrote:

No, must be the evil EU´s fault. At least this is a good example of why it is pointless to discuss the topic with Brexiteers.


Lol - hilarious but true. You would’ve thought a claim like that would be accompanied by a link to - or excerpt from - an EU regulation. But no - just a random claim with nothing to support it.

Some folk are willing to believe and repeat just about anything if it suits them. Makes you wonder about how susceptible to foreign bots some folk actually are.


Are you in the UK?

If you are, or within an EU nation, try listening CBS NYC via their site and see what happens.

I’ve tried to attach a screenshot, but it is not working.

https://1010wins.radio.com/


You still haven’t told us what EU regulation bans people in Europe from listening to US radio, or why the EU allows those US radio stations to be legally accessible through other sites.

I’m going to guess that that claim originated through some unverifiable source on the internet, and a that some (a lot?) of Brexiteers now believe it to be fact.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:05 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
par13del wrote:
I think what will get lost in all of this is that until the last election, all the elitist in the UK parliament and political class who could be regarded as persons out of touch with the ordinary man in the street were all ardent supporters of the EU


You think JRM for instance is not an elitist out of touch with ordinary man? ROTFL

The elite of the UK is not to be found debating eachother in Parliament, par13del.
The elite of the UK are of much lower profile and often fairly unknown to the general public, yet they stear the political parties through their multi-million donations to them, a bit like club owners of football clubs do; politicians are nothing but well paid players on the field of politics: they pretend to play for all club supporters, but in fact they only care for the happy few ones hidden somewhere high up in the VIP lounges, because those are the ones who will decide on their next promotion/transfer.

Well one has to wonder how the parliament under TM who said she wanted Brexit could not accomplish anything until the last election changed the makeup of the parliament.
Yes JRM is a Brexiter but his one vote was not enough to override the majority who voted NO to every plan that they the parliament and TM government came up with.

Additionally, the elitist in parliament are also the ones who accepted all EU rules / laws, put them in place then went around the country blaming the EU for every single thing that they did wrong on the EU. Now did that make them populist?
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:38 pm

par13del wrote:
Well one has to wonder how the parliament under TM who said she wanted Brexit could not accomplish anything until the last election changed the makeup of the parliament.

Interestingly enough, several members who sat in both parliaments voted differently in both parliaments too, so it's not (only) the composition which changed the outcome...

par13del wrote:
Additionally, the elitist in parliament are also the ones who accepted all EU rules / laws, put them in place then went around the country blaming the EU for every single thing that they did wrong on the EU. Now did that make them populist?

I think that rather makes them opportunists?
They took the full money and the cosy seat for all those years, while doing only half their job.
This opportunistic aspect of British politics also got demonstrated by what I just said about individual voting records of several MPs, BTW. Whatever MPs think secures them their seat, many will start to parrot regardless their own opinion on the matter: it's inherent to the system direct representation through small constituencies vs voting for national parties and their party candidates lists.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:31 am

ElPistolero wrote:
I’m going to guess that that claim originated through some unverifiable source on the internet, and a that some (a lot?) of Brexiteers now believe it to be fact.


I had the same suspicion myself when it first popped up in this thread. It's a wacky claim that reminds me of 5G=Covid19 and other such nonsense spread around by WhatsApp etc. As someone who's been aware of internet since the beginning, the rise of social media has been a very depressing development from the Utopian promise of the early days.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:40 am

ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Lol - hilarious but true. You would’ve thought a claim like that would be accompanied by a link to - or excerpt from - an EU regulation. But no - just a random claim with nothing to support it.

Some folk are willing to believe and repeat just about anything if it suits them. Makes you wonder about how susceptible to foreign bots some folk actually are.


Are you in the UK?

If you are, or within an EU nation, try listening CBS NYC via their site and see what happens.

I’ve tried to attach a screenshot, but it is not working.

https://1010wins.radio.com/


You still haven’t told us what EU regulation bans people in Europe from listening to US radio, or why the EU allows those US radio stations to be legally accessible through other sites.

I’m going to guess that that claim originated through some unverifiable source on the internet, and a that some (a lot?) of Brexiteers now believe it to be fact.


They seem to believe just about any ridiculous thing said about the EU, as long as it is negative and thus matches their narrative.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:13 am

Dutchy wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Are you in the UK?

If you are, or within an EU nation, try listening CBS NYC via their site and see what happens.

I’ve tried to attach a screenshot, but it is not working.

https://1010wins.radio.com/


You still haven’t told us what EU regulation bans people in Europe from listening to US radio, or why the EU allows those US radio stations to be legally accessible through other sites.

I’m going to guess that that claim originated through some unverifiable source on the internet, and a that some (a lot?) of Brexiteers now believe it to be fact.


They seem to believe just about any ridiculous thing said about the EU, as long as it is negative and thus matches their narrative.


What is interesting is that the ones banning internet sites is countries and regimes like China, Russia Iran etc.

EU, Brazil, Chile, India etc has GDPR or GDPR copies. This means that the citizen has the right to understand how and what data is used, active approve the purpose of usage and right to be forgotten.

UK is about to leave GDPR but as I understand will create a UK version of GDPR.

The trend today is either a China style data protection law not in favor of the individual but the state or GDPR style law protecting the individual.

I had a conversation with the UK branch of my company a few weeks ago where they told us that it was no problem to store EU privacy data into UK while GDPR will be copied. I needed to explain what happens now is that Islands of data is created where UK data might not be allowed to store in EU nor USA, EU data not allowed to store in Brazil, UK or USA.

This might acually be a threat to UK IT and financial industry.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:05 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
par13del wrote:
I think what will get lost in all of this is that until the last election, all the elitist in the UK parliament and political class who could be regarded as persons out of touch with the ordinary man in the street were all ardent supporters of the EU


You think JRM for instance is not an elitist out of touch with ordinary man? ROTFL

The elite of the UK is not to be found debating eachother in Parliament, par13del.
The elite of the UK are of much lower profile and often fairly unknown to the general public, yet they stear the political parties through their multi-million donations to them, a bit like club owners of football clubs do; politicians are nothing but well paid players on the field of politics: they pretend to play for all club supporters, but in fact they only care for the happy few ones hidden somewhere high up in the VIP lounges, because those are the ones who will decide on their next promotion/transfer.


This is a hilarious point made by Brexiteers. Look at the backgrounds and major proponents of Brexit. Those in the ERG in the Tory party and those major donors and supporters especially to vote leave and be leave. How on earth you can do that and with a straight face say that all the main supporters of the EU were elitist is factually inaccurate aside from being a pathetic arguement.

I suspect what a lot of Brexiteers problem is (why they use use that line), is that there were a fair few MPs in leave voting areas who wanted to remain, some of those were experienced MPs e.g Ken Clarke, Dominic Grieve etc . So they had to come up with some way to have a go at them..thus the elite. It's rather easier to label someone, than understand or remind yourself how the UK is a representive democracy and most of those MPs were doing what they felt was the best for their country. Of course those who voted against the majority of their constituents were entirely right to do this if that's how they felt. If you didn't like it, you can vote them out at the next election - that's UK democracy. MPs are suposed to be more informed than the electorate on such issues...and as virtually every interview with a Brexiteer in the street has shown, they were.

Most of those MPs had less to lose if Brexit happened anyway. What's the worst Dominic Greeve would lose? His seat? What would JRM lose? Oh yes his seat and millions his investment company had on the line.

At the same time of course big corporations were in on it too. They are part of the elite and don't want the UK to survive on it's own. Just like the Judges are unelected and enermy's of the people. :lol: :roll:

Which is why you don't hold referedums on these types of issues, and if you do you always have a super majority.

ElPistolero wrote:
I find that those who identify as “liberals” or “socialists” could care less.


I'm going to correct you there.. it's Couldn't care less or could not care less. Could care less means you do care somewhat.


Brexit, Trump, Boris - it's all populism. Everyone with any indepth knowledge of political history or ideology has stated as such. And they are right.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:09 pm

Not to mention the current PM in recovery Boris Johnson himself, who voted first against TM's deal.... the voted for it... and then again against it.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:41 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
This is a hilarious point made by Brexiteers. Look at the backgrounds and major proponents of Brexit. Those in the ERG in the Tory party and those major donors and supporters especially to vote leave and be leave. How on earth you can do that and with a straight face say that all the main supporters of the EU were elitist is factually inaccurate aside from being a pathetic arguement.

Unfortunately, history shows that the only majority in 2016 was the people vote, and most people called it a protest vote against the elites in parliament, so was the parliament out of touch with the man in the street or people like Boris and Nigel were such accomplished politicians and public speakers that they convinced millions that they would be better off moving to something uncertain that everyone else was saying was doomed and a disaster for the UK, was it a matter of trust?
Unfortunately, I do not think that the misinformation of the Brexiters was enough to get the vote in 2016 or the last GE, as for business, is it a case of the minority Brexit supporting ones drowning out the silent majority who benefited from daily EU trade?
I suspect we can also lay a lot of blame at the silent majority who sat by and watched under the believe that it would never happen.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:17 pm

par13del wrote:
most people called it a protest vote against the elites in parliament,


Nope, mainly those gunning for Brexit i.e Farage, ERG. Then it was picked up by Brexiteers. It wasn't most people.


par13del wrote:
so was the parliament out of touch with the man in the street or people like Boris and Nigel were such accomplished politicians and public speakers that they convinced millions that they would be better off moving to something uncertain that everyone else was saying was doomed and a disaster for the UK, was it a matter of trust?


I think the man on the street was out of touch with a) how the UK's version of democracy works, b) the fact most of the issues they were told were the EU's fault were category NOT (so the fault of those pushing those alt facts) c) yes was in part a matter of trust. That people 'trusted' an ex banker who didn't show up to EU fishery meetings over experienced MPs with direct experience of EU workings. In part a failure of them to get their arguement across, but that was incredibly difficult with the press and a very sucessful and as it turned out illegal social media campaign.

par13del wrote:
Unfortunately, I do not think that the misinformation of the Brexiters was enough to get the vote in 2016 or the last GE, as for business, is it a case of the minority Brexit supporting ones drowning out the silent majority who benefited from daily EU trade?
I suspect we can also lay a lot of blame at the silent majority who sat by and watched under the believe that it would never happen.


Yes quite possibly. Look at Dyson and the idiot who runs the Pubs. Their voices were listened to more than the chief of Airbus, Nissan etc etc.Or just dismissed as scare stories.

Another problem was this stupid 'change for change sake'. No matter what the change was, people were not interested. They made their mind up and wanted change. The change that would have fixed what they were complaining about was to remove the current UK govenment, but instead of suckered into voting out of the EU. It's easier to sell blame the foreigner than the jolly Brits having a pint and smoke.

It also didn't help the opposition was entirely useless during the entire early process.


The UK has a massive problem with a lack of education surrounding politics, critical thinking and reasoning. Also this wierd fascination with celebrity and a guy who is a good laugh (i.e Boris / Farage) instead of someone who is knowledgable / competent and not a liar but maybe a bit boring.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:27 pm

UK wants to continue having access to interpol databases.

This is is against the law of many national countries and GDPR.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12729 ... ate-latest

Why do UK make demands that violates the law of EU and national countries?
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:18 pm

olle wrote:
UK wants to continue having access to interpol databases.

This is is against the law of many national countries and GDPR.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12729 ... ate-latest

Why do UK make demands that violates the law of EU and national countries?

Probably need to update the comment, it seems the UK is talking about Europol not Interpol, they are different, the EU most likely cannot deny access to Interpol.
https://www.interpol.int/en/Our-partner ... pean-Union
 
A101
Posts: 1951
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:14 am

olle wrote:
UK wants to continue having access to interpol databases.

This is is against the law of many national countries and GDPR.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12729 ... ate-latest

Why do UK make demands that violates the law of EU and national countries?



Not sure exactly what we are asking for as I haven’t really looked into it, but it’s not out of the ordinary as there where negotiations between the EU/NZ for the same thing. Not sure if it’s been finalised as yet


https://edps.europa.eu/sites/edp/files/ ... n.docx.pdf

EDPS Opinion on the negotiating mandate to conclude an international agreement on the exchange of personal data between Europol and New Zealand law enforcement authorities




Also Europol have many agreements with international partners and many of them have a transfer of personal information attached to them

https://www.europol.europa.eu/partners- ... agreements
 
olle
Posts: 2026
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:53 am

Of course it shall be Europol and not Interpol ;-)

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