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LJ
Posts: 5470
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:50 pm

Aesma wrote:
Fish is a huge political thing for some reason, but again that works for both sides. If EU fishermen cannot fish in UK waters, EU politicians will milk that situation, buying anything from the UK will be branded as treachery, it will be very bad.


To be honest, if there weren't elections in The Netherlands next year, the Dutch government wouldn't care less (though not in public). Everybody knows that there are "bigger fish to fry". However, no politician will say that in public (at least for now). When it's dealmaking time, the fisheries is a bargaining chip of which the price is high (for symbolic reasons). It's therefore interesting to see who exchanges the fiheries and what the other party will get in return. My expectation is that the UK gets mostly what it wants on the subject of fisheries in exchange for something much bigger.
 
94717
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:51 pm

Aesma wrote:
Fish is a huge political thing for some reason, but again that works for both sides. If EU fishermen cannot fish in UK waters, EU politicians will milk that situation, buying anything from the UK will be branded as treachery, it will be very bad.


French fishery has the big possibility to block entrance to french ports.

It will look great in TV.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4127
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:57 pm

Aesma wrote:
Fish is a huge political thing for some reason, but again that works for both sides. If EU fishermen cannot fish in UK waters, EU politicians will milk that situation, buying anything from the UK will be branded as treachery, it will be very bad.


Food in general is an emotionally charged subject. "Our farmers", "our fishermen", etc.

Because everyone this theirs are the best and they're unfairly being taken advantage of.

If the discussion was honest they wouldn't speak about "our fishermen" but rather about the fortunes of a few people and companies hoarding fishing rights gleefuly rubbing their hands that the focus is in the poor Cornish small-time sailor and not on how they've taken advantage of the laws and regulations at every turn.

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/1 ... hael-gove/

The five largest quota-holders control more than a third of UK fishing quota
Four of the top five belong to families on the Sunday Times Rich List
The fifth is a Dutch multinational whose UK subsidiary – North Atlantic Fishing Company – controls around a quarter of England’s fishing quota
Around half of England’s quota is ultimately owned by Dutch, Icelandic, or Spanish interests
More than half (13) of the top 25 quota holders have directors, shareholders, or vessel partners who were convicted of offences in Scotland’s £63m “black fish” scam – a huge, sophisticated fraud that saw trawlermen and fish processors working together to evade quota limits and land 170,000 tonnes of undeclared herring and mackerel
One of the flagships of the “Brexit flotilla” – which sailed up the Thames in 2016 to demand the UK’s exit from the EU – is among the UK’s 10 biggest quota-holders
Around 29% of UK fishing quota is directly controlled by Rich List families. Some of these families have investments in dozens of other fishing companies, meaning companies holding 37% of UK quota are wholly or partly owned by these Rich List families.
 
94717
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:35 pm

JJJ wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Fish is a huge political thing for some reason, but again that works for both sides. If EU fishermen cannot fish in UK waters, EU politicians will milk that situation, buying anything from the UK will be branded as treachery, it will be very bad.


Food in general is an emotionally charged subject. "Our farmers", "our fishermen", etc.

Because everyone this theirs are the best and they're unfairly being taken advantage of.

If the discussion was honest they wouldn't speak about "our fishermen" but rather about the fortunes of a few people and companies hoarding fishing rights gleefuly rubbing their hands that the focus is in the poor Cornish small-time sailor and not on how they've taken advantage of the laws and regulations at every turn.

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/1 ... hael-gove/

The five largest quota-holders control more than a third of UK fishing quota
Four of the top five belong to families on the Sunday Times Rich List
The fifth is a Dutch multinational whose UK subsidiary – North Atlantic Fishing Company – controls around a quarter of England’s fishing quota
Around half of England’s quota is ultimately owned by Dutch, Icelandic, or Spanish interests
More than half (13) of the top 25 quota holders have directors, shareholders, or vessel partners who were convicted of offences in Scotland’s £63m “black fish” scam – a huge, sophisticated fraud that saw trawlermen and fish processors working together to evade quota limits and land 170,000 tonnes of undeclared herring and mackerel
One of the flagships of the “Brexit flotilla” – which sailed up the Thames in 2016 to demand the UK’s exit from the EU – is among the UK’s 10 biggest quota-holders
Around 29% of UK fishing quota is directly controlled by Rich List families. Some of these families have investments in dozens of other fishing companies, meaning companies holding 37% of UK quota are wholly or partly owned by these Rich List families.



So whom is controlling that such small group can take control of close all fishing? EU? UK government?
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5232
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:17 pm

Not an economist, but I doubt that an usually successful city state (Singapore) can be compared to a nation with innumerable provinces and varying economies.
 
A101
Posts: 2714
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:20 pm

LJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
The economic reality is yes we like to sell the fish to the EU, but if the EU wants to boycott UK fish it’s well in its right to do so, either the EU has to replace the catch from existing EU fishing grounds and risk overfishing in the years ahead or the EU has to reduce the amount of fish it eats and accept the higher price for reduced stock.


Or we just decide not to eat fish, or only fish we catch and don't export it to the UK. Meanwhile, UK fishing industries is stuck with fish they don't eat, oversupply of fish which makes the industry less profitable and kills employment in the UK fish farms.



Why is it that the most on here think the EU can only adapt to any new fishing regime and believe the UK is so fickle it too cannot change to circumstance.... mind boggling. There certainly won’t be an oversupply if the EU dosnt want to trade in fish it just means we only catch what is needed
 
LJ
Posts: 5470
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:57 pm

A101 wrote:
Why is it that the most on here think the EU can only adapt to any new fishing regime and believe the UK is so fickle it too cannot change to circumstance.... mind boggling. There certainly won’t be an oversupply if the EU dosnt want to trade in fish it just means we only catch what is needed


Okay, you don't expect oversupply when around 2/3s of your export market vanishes. Do you really mean you advocatiing catching 70% less? I thought that the whole idea was to grow the UK fishing industry instead of shrinking it (as the EU unrightfully limited the UKs fishing iindustry).
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:56 pm

LJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
Why is it that the most on here think the EU can only adapt to any new fishing regime and believe the UK is so fickle it too cannot change to circumstance.... mind boggling. There certainly won’t be an oversupply if the EU dosnt want to trade in fish it just means we only catch what is needed


Okay, you don't expect oversupply when around 2/3s of your export market vanishes. Do you really mean you advocatiing catching 70% less? I thought that the whole idea was to grow the UK fishing industry instead of shrinking it (as the EU unrightfully limited the UKs fishing iindustry).


Of course we won’t have an oversupply ifish on the market if we don’t eat it, the industry won’t grow either way if we continue to let EU to fish in our waters as demanded
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:11 pm

A101 wrote:
LJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
The economic reality is yes we like to sell the fish to the EU, but if the EU wants to boycott UK fish it’s well in its right to do so, either the EU has to replace the catch from existing EU fishing grounds and risk overfishing in the years ahead or the EU has to reduce the amount of fish it eats and accept the higher price for reduced stock.


Or we just decide not to eat fish, or only fish we catch and don't export it to the UK. Meanwhile, UK fishing industries is stuck with fish they don't eat, oversupply of fish which makes the industry less profitable and kills employment in the UK fish farms.



Why is it that the most on here think the EU can only adapt to any new fishing regime and believe the UK is so fickle it too cannot change to circumstance.... mind boggling.


Of course they will adapt, by getting less £ for the same fish a few ships will end up sold, more fishermen unemployed, etc. Same tons but a shrinking industry competing with the likes of Namibia and Malaysia.
 
AeroVega
Posts: 384
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:31 am

A101 wrote:
There certainly won’t be an oversupply if the EU dosnt want to trade in fish it just means we only catch what is needed


Plus that you will not have a free trade deal with the EU. It's the UK's sovereign choice: fish or FTA.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:43 am

AeroVega wrote:
A101 wrote:
There certainly won’t be an oversupply if the EU dosnt want to trade in fish it just means we only catch what is needed


Plus that you will not have a free trade deal with the EU. It's the UK's sovereign choice: fish or FTA.



Fish and our sovereignty there more riding on the negotiations than just fish.

But fisheries will set the tone for the remainder of the negotiations
 
94717
Posts: 2789
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:55 am

UK dependency of export to EU;

car industry 80% export
oil within 10 years gone or worthless
financial industry. no Singapore on the Thames without it or shrinking
aviation industry
tourism

How much of this can EU produce within EU or other sources? What % of UK industry does it represent?


EU request from UK and export to UK

fish
cars / trucks
aviation industry
tourism

How much of this can UK get from other sources or produce within UK?

The strongest card UK has is fish because french politics like UK politics favours farmers and fishing industry when on TV ;-)
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri May 01, 2020 3:20 pm

What a farce, one of the arguments for voting Brexit: "Europeans take our jobs". This is what actually happens, predictably:

0.2% of the 50,000 UK workers who said they'd replace Eastern European fruit pickers actually showed up


Link

So much for that argument and see one of the consequences of being out.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat May 02, 2020 4:10 am

UK-US trade talks to start next week, going to be interesting to see how both interact with each other’s agendas


https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/05 ... trade.html
 
94717
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat May 02, 2020 6:02 am

A101 wrote:
UK-US trade talks to start next week, going to be interesting to see how both interact with each other’s agendas


https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/05 ... trade.html


What areas will be included? In a few month we will know.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat May 02, 2020 8:24 am

olle wrote:
A101 wrote:
UK-US trade talks to start next week, going to be interesting to see how both interact with each other’s agendas


https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/05 ... trade.html


What areas will be included? In a few month we will know.


Now we can see what it really is like for "global Britain".
 
gkirk
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat May 02, 2020 7:53 pm

Dear EU,
Please dont forget us. We love you

Signed,
Scotland and Northern Ireland
 
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Jayafe
Posts: 1229
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun May 03, 2020 2:01 pm

UK seeks access to EU health cooperation in light of coronavirus

The British government is quietly seeking access to the European Union’s pandemic warning system, despite early reluctance to cooperate on health after Brexit, the Guardian has learned.

The UK is seeking “something akin to membership” of the EU’s early warning and response system (EWRS), which has played a critical role in coordinating Europe’s response to the coronavirus, as well as to earlier pandemics such as bird flu. According to an EU source, this would be “pretty much the same” as membership of the system.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... oronavirus

Because, you know, we have left and despice your burocracy. Although we need and demand access to EU tools at any time and with no restrictions. Because, you know, we are Britain, and having the same limited access than any other 3rd country is unfair, unjustified, an insult and a revenge for taking our Country back

What we want is full access. And leave. And don’t you dare accusing us of cherry-picking!!

Gotta love these funny folks, can’t wait to see how they’ll manage to try to blame the EU for their casualties.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun May 03, 2020 2:45 pm

gkirk wrote:
Dear EU,
Please dont forget us. We love you

Signed,
Scotland and Northern Ireland


They are welcome to come back, just as England and Wales but they won't.
 
Elite
Posts: 2309
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon May 04, 2020 7:34 am

Jayafe wrote:
UK seeks access to EU health cooperation in light of coronavirus

The British government is quietly seeking access to the European Union’s pandemic warning system, despite early reluctance to cooperate on health after Brexit, the Guardian has learned.

The UK is seeking “something akin to membership” of the EU’s early warning and response system (EWRS), which has played a critical role in coordinating Europe’s response to the coronavirus, as well as to earlier pandemics such as bird flu. According to an EU source, this would be “pretty much the same” as membership of the system.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... oronavirus

Because, you know, we have left and despice your burocracy. Although we need and demand access to EU tools at any time and with no restrictions. Because, you know, we are Britain, and having the same limited access than any other 3rd country is unfair, unjustified, an insult and a revenge for taking our Country back

What we want is full access. And leave. And don’t you dare accusing us of cherry-picking!!

Gotta love these funny folks, can’t wait to see how they’ll manage to try to blame the EU for their casualties.


It helps everyone to have the UK involved in areas of public health, as they would in counter terrorism efforts, anti-money laundering, and the like. Just because there are some good ideas to European connectivity and cooperation doesn't mean the entire country has to sign up to everything. It shouldn't be an all-in or all-out arrangement, that would help no one.

Countries are supposed to deal and cooperate with each other, just that it seems the UK has decided not to partake in the EU superstate project it has become.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon May 04, 2020 7:45 am

Elite wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
UK seeks access to EU health cooperation in light of coronavirus

The British government is quietly seeking access to the European Union’s pandemic warning system, despite early reluctance to cooperate on health after Brexit, the Guardian has learned.

The UK is seeking “something akin to membership” of the EU’s early warning and response system (EWRS), which has played a critical role in coordinating Europe’s response to the coronavirus, as well as to earlier pandemics such as bird flu. According to an EU source, this would be “pretty much the same” as membership of the system.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... oronavirus

Because, you know, we have left and despice your burocracy. Although we need and demand access to EU tools at any time and with no restrictions. Because, you know, we are Britain, and having the same limited access than any other 3rd country is unfair, unjustified, an insult and a revenge for taking our Country back

What we want is full access. And leave. And don’t you dare accusing us of cherry-picking!!

Gotta love these funny folks, can’t wait to see how they’ll manage to try to blame the EU for their casualties.


It helps everyone to have the UK involved in areas of public health, as they would in counter terrorism efforts, anti-money laundering, and the like. Just because there are some good ideas to European connectivity and cooperation doesn't mean the entire country has to sign up to everything. It shouldn't be an all-in or all-out arrangement, that would help no one.

Countries are supposed to deal and cooperate with each other, just that it seems the UK has decided not to partake in the EU superstate project it has become.


So you don't think it's fair that non-members get a reduced form of membership? What's the point of being in a club if non members get the same benefits at a reduced cost?

If the UK wants to be part of this agency they'll have to settle for the lite version.
 
Elite
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon May 04, 2020 8:32 am

JJJ wrote:
Elite wrote:
Jayafe wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... oronavirus

Because, you know, we have left and despice your burocracy. Although we need and demand access to EU tools at any time and with no restrictions. Because, you know, we are Britain, and having the same limited access than any other 3rd country is unfair, unjustified, an insult and a revenge for taking our Country back

What we want is full access. And leave. And don’t you dare accusing us of cherry-picking!!

Gotta love these funny folks, can’t wait to see how they’ll manage to try to blame the EU for their casualties.


It helps everyone to have the UK involved in areas of public health, as they would in counter terrorism efforts, anti-money laundering, and the like. Just because there are some good ideas to European connectivity and cooperation doesn't mean the entire country has to sign up to everything. It shouldn't be an all-in or all-out arrangement, that would help no one.

Countries are supposed to deal and cooperate with each other, just that it seems the UK has decided not to partake in the EU superstate project it has become.


So you don't think it's fair that non-members get a reduced form of membership? What's the point of being in a club if non members get the same benefits at a reduced cost?

If the UK wants to be part of this agency they'll have to settle for the lite version.


Because it would benefit the EU as a whole, as it would benefit the UK as well? Trying to "punish" the UK for leaving the EU is foolish and immature. The UK chose to not partake in the EU project, but certain areas of cooperation are mutually beneficial.

For many of the remaining EU states, being a member of the club is literally the only option - they don't have the economic strength, or wealth, or productive populace to make it on their own. Even with the UK being out of the EU, continued EU-UK cooperation is vital and would benefit the minnows outside of the main EU economies (France, Germany) a lot.
 
94717
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Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon May 04, 2020 9:52 am

Elite wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Elite wrote:

It helps everyone to have the UK involved in areas of public health, as they would in counter terrorism efforts, anti-money laundering, and the like. Just because there are some good ideas to European connectivity and cooperation doesn't mean the entire country has to sign up to everything. It shouldn't be an all-in or all-out arrangement, that would help no one.

Countries are supposed to deal and cooperate with each other, just that it seems the UK has decided not to partake in the EU superstate project it has become.


So you don't think it's fair that non-members get a reduced form of membership? What's the point of being in a club if non members get the same benefits at a reduced cost?

If the UK wants to be part of this agency they'll have to settle for the lite version.


Because it would benefit the EU as a whole, as it would benefit the UK as well? Trying to "punish" the UK for leaving the EU is foolish and immature. The UK chose to not partake in the EU project, but certain areas of cooperation are mutually beneficial.

For many of the remaining EU states, being a member of the club is literally the only option - they don't have the economic strength, or wealth, or productive populace to make it on their own. Even with the UK being out of the EU, continued EU-UK cooperation is vital and would benefit the minnows outside of the main EU economies (France, Germany) a lot.


EU have examples like Norway where a country is not member but accept and joins major programs. Remember the famous "stairway".

The problem will be to accept the framework for supervision, and to accept that breaking the rules might mean that UK get excluded. I consider that what happened after the terrorist attacks in France where UK shared classified information with third party, or not follow import rules with China to the SM will have bigger consequences in the future compared to be a full member. We see this with EU Swiss relation.

If UK want to move up the stairway it will also mean more obligations, accepting common courts etc. So far this has been impossible.

EU will probably continue to say that the offer is the stairway but UK need to take the full package following the level UK wants. When that question is asked there is always the answer "WTO".
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon May 04, 2020 10:58 am

Elite wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Elite wrote:

It helps everyone to have the UK involved in areas of public health, as they would in counter terrorism efforts, anti-money laundering, and the like. Just because there are some good ideas to European connectivity and cooperation doesn't mean the entire country has to sign up to everything. It shouldn't be an all-in or all-out arrangement, that would help no one.

Countries are supposed to deal and cooperate with each other, just that it seems the UK has decided not to partake in the EU superstate project it has become.


So you don't think it's fair that non-members get a reduced form of membership? What's the point of being in a club if non members get the same benefits at a reduced cost?

If the UK wants to be part of this agency they'll have to settle for the lite version.


Because it would benefit the EU as a whole, as it would benefit the UK as well? Trying to "punish" the UK for leaving the EU is foolish and immature. The UK chose to not partake in the EU project, but certain areas of cooperation are mutually beneficial.
.


It's not punishing. The UK can partake in the structure in a mutually beneficial way just by staying in the same level as Norway, Switzerland, etc.

But let's go back a little bit regarding the politics of EWRS about a month.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... -pandemic/

Matt Hancock wanted to retain membership of EWRS as part of EU-UK future relationship deal, but Number 10 said no


Who's putting politics ahead of benefit to the population then?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon May 04, 2020 11:30 am

Elite wrote:
Because it would benefit the EU as a whole, as it would benefit the UK as well? Trying to "punish" the UK for leaving the EU is foolish and immature. The UK chose to not partake in the EU project, but certain areas of cooperation are mutually beneficial.


You propose cherry-picking and that's what the EU is not going to allow. As for benefits for both, sure, but as with Europol, there are ways to cooperate between Europol and non-EU members, the UK wanted direct excess to the database and that is a no-go for non-EU members. The UK choose not to be part of the club, which is their right to do so, but not being part has its consequences, because the UK is a non-EU member, they don't have the same safeguards for its citizens anymore as EU members do, so that's the reason that the UK can't be granted full access even though it would indeed benefit the EU as well.
So it needs to be taken case by case if letting the UK use some EU institutions and if so, to what degree can they participate and at what cost.


For many of the remaining EU states, being a member of the club is literally the only option - they don't have the economic strength, or wealth, or productive populace to make it on their own. Even with the UK being out of the EU, continued EU-UK cooperation is vital and would benefit the minnows outside of the main EU economies (France, Germany) a lot.[/quote]

Many would argue that the UK hasn't got the economic strength or wealth, or productive populace to make it on their own as well. We have no indication that global Britain will a great success, they are out since February 1st, we have seen remarkably little of global Britain and only seen the UK. What we have seen a Brexodus and Brexiles, less economic growth, hundreds of companies and thus thousands of jobs moved to EU countries etc.

But as I said, we'll see the true UK (un)importance in the global Britain rhetoric.
 
94717
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Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon May 04, 2020 11:34 am

JJJ wrote:
Elite wrote:
JJJ wrote:

So you don't think it's fair that non-members get a reduced form of membership? What's the point of being in a club if non members get the same benefits at a reduced cost?

If the UK wants to be part of this agency they'll have to settle for the lite version.


Because it would benefit the EU as a whole, as it would benefit the UK as well? Trying to "punish" the UK for leaving the EU is foolish and immature. The UK chose to not partake in the EU project, but certain areas of cooperation are mutually beneficial.
.


It's not punishing. The UK can partake in the structure in a mutually beneficial way just by staying in the same level as Norway, Switzerland, etc.

But let's go back a little bit regarding the politics of EWRS about a month.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... -pandemic/

Matt Hancock wanted to retain membership of EWRS as part of EU-UK future relationship deal, but Number 10 said no


Who's putting politics ahead of benefit to the population then?


Populist politics basics means that the gain and effects is supposed to be long in the future.

Brexit is supposed to give big return of investments...

when doing reality check suddenly it is 50 years in the future and in this case who could ever consider that functions that requires that Europe work together should happen just a few weeks after Brexit?

By the way we are in May now. Was not some of the rights that the city of London has supposed to expire now?
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon May 04, 2020 1:59 pm

olle wrote:
By the way we are in May now. Was not some of the rights that the city of London has supposed to expire now?


The deadline was delayed till 12 months after a no-deal in December 2019. However, expect much of the business to be moved by yearend.
 
94717
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon May 04, 2020 2:41 pm

LJ wrote:
olle wrote:
By the way we are in May now. Was not some of the rights that the city of London has supposed to expire now?


The deadline was delayed till 12 months after a no-deal in December 2019. However, expect much of the business to be moved by yearend.



What services is being moved?

It is very quiet. Quiet is like with small children meaning that a lot of things normally...
 
LJ
Posts: 5470
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon May 04, 2020 3:13 pm

olle wrote:
What services is being moved?


All of the Euro clearing (derivatives, repo market etc in EUR). Basically all of the traders in this business have to be operating out of an EU country (as do the platforms like LCH have to be located ini an EU country). Moreover, some dealing with EU counterparties (primarily pension funds or similar) also have to move to an EU country. Still a sizable part will remain in London as there are no restrictions for business outside of the EUR clearing and those counterparties which do not require an EU domiciled company.

It was one of the presents the City received from the ECJ as initially the EU didn't want non-Euro countries to be able to clear Euro trades. However, as discrimination between EU countries was/is not allowed, the UK won its case against the EU and subsequently London became the biggest clearer of EUR trades.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 12848
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon May 04, 2020 8:30 pm

LJ wrote:
olle wrote:
What services is being moved?


All of the Euro clearing (derivatives, repo market etc in EUR). Basically all of the traders in this business have to be operating out of an EU country (as do the platforms like LCH have to be located ini an EU country). Moreover, some dealing with EU counterparties (primarily pension funds or similar) also have to move to an EU country. Still a sizable part will remain in London as there are no restrictions for business outside of the EUR clearing and those counterparties which do not require an EU domiciled company.

It was one of the presents the City received from the ECJ as initially the EU didn't want non-Euro countries to be able to clear Euro trades. However, as discrimination between EU countries was/is not allowed, the UK won its case against the EU and subsequently London became the biggest clearer of EUR trades.



Indeed, just look at how empty the streets of the City of London are.
 
Derico
Posts: 4515
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 05, 2020 4:01 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Not an economist, but I doubt that an usually successful city state (Singapore) can be compared to a nation with innumerable provinces and varying economies.


Successful is relative. I was just thinking about this the last two days. Singapore has been raved out for years on end, but without any serious critical scrutiny.

One thing COVID has been perfect at, it is bringing to light the weaknesses of virtually all societies in some area, no matter how hard they had tried to "hide" it in the past. In the case of Singapore, such a successful economy in the macro and micro numbers, is the decades long complete neglect of the service workers. Who are in fact the ones who make the shiny buildings, trains, and the offices where the beautiful FT front page-worthy numbers possible to a significant extent.

Those workers live in a basically apartheid situation, in segregated-cramped quarters of very high density housing and too low of a facility ratio. The result has been Singapore getting busted in the infection rates for the corona virus, so that no one is thinking of them as an example on dealing with contagion control.
 
94717
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 05, 2020 5:42 am

with a full scale trade war in Asia on its way I can only say that the timing of Brexit is pure fantastic.

China just considered to break relations with Australia over Covid ;-).
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1653
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed May 06, 2020 7:10 am

According to huffingtonpost.co.uk:

The UK now has the highest number of confirmed coronavirus-related deaths in Europe and the second-highest in the world.

The latest figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) show a total of 32,375 deaths involving Covid-19 have now been registered across the UK, surpassing Italy’s total of 29,079.


So I would like to understand how not the pound and no being Shengen country enhanced the british exceptionalism ?


Unless the explanation is rather in that excellent article:

https://www.politico.eu/article/cruel-britannia-coronavirus-lays-waste-to-british-exceptionalism/

LONDON — As the coronavirus rips through Europe and the world, Britain’s response to the pandemic has shown it’s suffering from another dangerous disease: unshakeable belief in its own exceptionalism.

This is not a uniquely British illness, of course. Many countries put themselves at the center of the map and at the hub of history. But while the sickness causes sporadic bouts of chauvinism in others, the British seem to have a terminal case.

When that exceptionalism collides with a virus that knows no borders and steamrolls over the “keep calm and carry on” spirit, the results, as we’re seeing now, can be disastrous.

It was the Benedictine monk’s eighth-century "Ecclesiastical History of England" that first forged a narrative of a people united by common bond. But the real havoc was wreaked by Geoffrey of Monmouth, a 12th-century scribe who wrote one of the maddest books in history.

As Britain limped into the 1970s, it increasingly resembled a jaded rock star — a once-great icon seeking contemporary relevance but forever obliged to fall back on old hits.

In 1136, as Norman England plunged into civil war, Geoffrey took out his quill and knocked off “The History of the Kings of Britain.” The work claimed that Britain had been founded by Brutus of Troy, a descendant of the Greek hero Aeneas, who had captured it from giants.

By 12th-century standards, it was a publishing sensation, with hundreds of copies finding their way into monastic libraries across Europe. It was also overtly political in intent, seeking to create a unifying origin story and a common destiny.

In reality, ancient Britain had been a backwater off the backroads of Europe, but by the time Geoffrey had filed his parchment, the story had been reshaped into a saga of an incomparable people doing phenomenal things.

Monmouth’s clerical contemporaries may have scoffed, but over the next 900 years his fake history became entrenched in mainstream consciousness.

Matters weren’t helped by topography. Island people are naturally suspicious. While the sea acts as a filter and a defense, it can also make islanders tend toward paranoia; they’re shaped by a lingering fear of the horizon, of what might come over it and what the people beyond it are plotting.

As England blinked into the Renaissance, its individualistic tendencies and distrust of other Europeans came of age. Henry VIII broke from the Catholic Church, and his successors engaged in a series of prolonged wars with the rest of the Continent.

Contemporary propagandists, including William Shakespeare, played up the distinctive and the extraordinary, setting the country apart from the rest of the region, despite our long and intertwined history. The “Sceptered Isle” as Shakespeare’s John of Gaunt put it: “This precious stone set in a silver sea.”

In the ensuing centuries, as the empire expanded, so too did Britons’ sense of entitlement. But there was a problem. You can’t convincingly lay claim to world hegemony if you’re descended from a bunch of farmers speaking what is in effect a French-German creole.

So, the British pilfered from the Classical Age and pretended that English grammar and spelling were every bit as orderly as Latin. It was a grand deceit — and it worked. Many people still believe that narrative, and the accompanying idea that Britain and her people are somehow unique and special.
 
LJ
Posts: 5470
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed May 13, 2020 5:19 pm

Michael Gove seems to think that a trade deal with tariffs is easier to conclude than one without (and within 6 months). However, the EU seems to disagree citing that it takes between two and three years to negociate only a few tariffs, let alone a complete set.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/13/uk-eu-trade-deal-with-tariffs-impossible-in-six-months-say-diplomats
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14950
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed May 13, 2020 10:15 pm

UK discriminating against EU citizens, say MEPs : https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... s-say-meps
 
LJ
Posts: 5470
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu May 14, 2020 9:55 am

It seems that Boris wasn't 100% honest when he told the outside world that there wouldn't be any checks for goods going to Northern Ireland last October. He apparently agreed to the checks only a few days before.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/13/brexit-will-mean-checks-on-goods-crossing-irish-sea-government-admits
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1653
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu May 14, 2020 11:29 am

Have you ever seen him honest ?
 
LJ
Posts: 5470
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri May 15, 2020 11:07 am

Suddenly the UK government cares about UK nationals living abroad...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/15/brexit-serious-risk-eu-uk-citizens-michael-gove

Meanwhile the EU complains that the UK discriminates against EU citizens,

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/05/uk-discriminating-against-eu-citizens-say-meps

and sues the UK over zero VAT for commodity traders and infringement of freedom of movement.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/14/uk-told-to-pay-eus-costs-after-being-sued-over-city-tax-breaks

Seems like the EU and UK are really getting along very well.......not.
 
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zkojq
Posts: 4811
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat May 16, 2020 1:25 pm

I haven't been paying attention for the past few months. Has the UK yet been able to conclude the easiest trade negotiation in human history?
 
LJ
Posts: 5470
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat May 16, 2020 3:13 pm

zkojq wrote:
I haven't been paying attention for the past few months. Has the UK yet been able to conclude the easiest trade negotiation in human history?


No, but the David Frost has given Michel Barnier two weeks to drop his 'ideological approach'. Seems like he doesn't understand why the EU “insists on an ideological approach which makes it more difficult to reach a mutually beneficial agreement” . Thus we'll know in three weeks whether we'll see a deal or no deal.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/15/negotiators-gloomy-as-eu-uk-brexit-talks-end-in-stalemate
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 12848
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat May 16, 2020 8:02 pm

LJ wrote:
zkojq wrote:
I haven't been paying attention for the past few months. Has the UK yet been able to conclude the easiest trade negotiation in human history?


No, but the David Frost has given Michel Barnier two weeks to drop his 'ideological approach'. Seems like he doesn't understand why the EU “insists on an ideological approach which makes it more difficult to reach a mutually beneficial agreement” . Thus we'll know in three weeks whether we'll see a deal or no deal.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/15/negotiators-gloomy-as-eu-uk-brexit-talks-end-in-stalemate


Michel Barnier says a no deal is likely and quite an inside in what Brittain actually demands to proceed. All impossible things of course, clearly Brittain don't want a deal so they make these ridiculous demands.

That said, with the exception of some modest overtures, we failed to make any progress on any of the other more difficult topics.

Despite its claims, the United Kingdom did not engage in a real discussion on the question of the level playing field – those economic and commercial “fair play” rules that we agreed to, with Boris Johnson, in the Political Declaration.
o On this topic, this was a round of divergence, with no progress.

With regard to the governance of our future relationship, the few useful discussions we had were limited to sectorial questions.
o We were unable to make progress on the issue of the single governance framework that we believe is necessary to build a close and comprehensive partnership with this great neighbouring country, and thus guarantee its efficient and transparent implementation.

o We were also disappointed by the UK's lack of ambition in a number of areas that may not be central to the negotiation, but which are nonetheless important and symbolic.

I'm thinking, for instance of the fight against money laundering.

I'm also talking about its lack of ambition on the respective roles of the European Parliament, the British Parliament and civil society in the implementation of our future relationship.

Why does the UK refuse to include consultation mechanisms with our European and British parliaments and with civil society in our future agreement?
This is what we have foreseen in our modern association agreements to ensure the greatest democratic legitimacy and enable parliamentarians, NGOs and social partners to make their voices heard. I know that the European Economic and Social Committee is very attentive to this issue.
Finally, on police and judicial cooperation in criminal matters, although we have broad agreement on the objectives, we continue to face two fundamental obstacles that must be resolved before we can put in place any new tools for cooperation:
o The UK refuses to commit, in an agreement with us, to guarantees protecting fundamental rights and individual freedoms resulting from the European Convention on Human Rights, as agreed in the Political Declaration;

o It insists on lowering current standards and deviating from agreed mechanisms of data protection – to the point that it is even asking the Union to ignore its own law and the jurisprudence of the European Court of Justice on passenger data (“PNR rules”).That is of course impossible.


link to EU statement
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3719
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat May 16, 2020 8:28 pm

LJ wrote:
zkojq wrote:
I haven't been paying attention for the past few months. Has the UK yet been able to conclude the easiest trade negotiation in human history?


No, but the David Frost has given Michel Barnier two weeks to drop his 'ideological approach'. Seems like he doesn't understand why the EU “insists on an ideological approach which makes it more difficult to reach a mutually beneficial agreement”


Amazing how the UK genuinely believes that while the EU indeed never wanted to seperate nor compromise on the 4 freedoms while it was IN it despite Brexiteers claiming it would, it will now suddenly give away the most precious twoo (or even just one) of the 4 freedoms now that it is OUT.

ROTFL

If the UK wants free access to the SM, even just for it goods only, it'll still have to accept all the conditions linked to it: period.
It doesn't matter whether the UK is IN or OUT of the EU: that only gave Westminster a seat at the table in BRU when the rules governing the SM are made.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5232
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat May 16, 2020 8:42 pm

The UK seems to want to become a low cost provider without any of the safety, labor, financial regulations a civilized country adopts to protect its citizens and economy. And is surprised that the EU says, 'no'. Only the UK is suppose to have sovereignty, not the EU. They treated India pretty much the same way.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 12848
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat May 16, 2020 9:33 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Only the UK is suppose to have sovereignty, not the EU.


The UK has the full right to become a low-cost country, without any safety net. Which is fine. But it has consequences of course and the EU says no for full access to the internal market, if the UK wants to compete on that note. The EU is made up of 27 sovereign states who also have that right. That last part the Brexitremist seem to forget.
 
AeroVega
Posts: 384
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat May 16, 2020 9:40 pm

Dutchy wrote:


Wow, reading that statement makes two things clear:

1. We are heading for a no-deal Brexit

2. The EU does not trust the UK to faithfully implement the agreed NI border protocol.

Interesting times ahead.
 
A101
Posts: 2714
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat May 16, 2020 10:31 pm

link to EU statement

Comes across as EU/ Barnier are upset because the UK is refusing to accept to align and accede to EU controlled neocolonialism
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12848
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun May 17, 2020 1:54 am

A101 wrote:
link to EU statement

Comes across as EU/ Barnier are upset because the UK is refusing to accept to align and accede to EU controlled neocolonialism


Lol, all is in the eye of the beholder I guess. So I already inked the article and commented on it, see a few post earlier ;-)
 
LJ
Posts: 5470
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun May 17, 2020 7:51 am

A101 wrote:
link to EU statement

Comes across as EU/ Barnier are upset because the UK is refusing to accept to align and accede to EU controlled neocolonialism


Actually I think Barnier isn't upset, he just cannot believe that the UK cannot accept that the EU has certain conditions. Moreover, he cannot understand that whilst the UK wants more than the Canada style agreeement (which is already an issue for some EU countries) it doesn't wants to accept additional requirements.

Personally I cannot wait till the UK publishes its legal text (which David Frost promised to do in the coming week) as untill now we only know the EU legal text and thus cannot assess if the UK is really as arrogant as portrayed by Barnier.
 
94717
Posts: 2789
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun May 17, 2020 10:41 am

LJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
link to EU statement

Comes across as EU/ Barnier are upset because the UK is refusing to accept to align and accede to EU controlled neocolonialism


Actually I think Barnier isn't upset, he just cannot believe that the UK cannot accept that the EU has certain conditions. Moreover, he cannot understand that whilst the UK wants more than the Canada style agreeement (which is already an issue for some EU countries) it doesn't wants to accept additional requirements.

Personally I cannot wait till the UK publishes its legal text (which David Frost promised to do in the coming week) as untill now we only know the EU legal text and thus cannot assess if the UK is really as arrogant as portrayed by Barnier.


EU citizen is supposed to follow the will of Brexiteers!
 
Klaus
Posts: 21638
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun May 17, 2020 11:29 am

A101 wrote:
link to EU statement

Comes across as EU/ Barnier are upset because the UK is refusing to accept to align and accede to EU controlled neocolonialism

We here in this thread plus all EU leaders have been explaining to you and to your government that access to the EU Single Market requires adherence to the same rules the member countries are following.

That you and your government apparently mistook that for a joke is fully your own fault and entirely at your expense – there has been plenty of advance warning, even before the UK referendum vote.

There is nothing new about this, just except now it's not theoretical any more but about to have serious practical consequences for the UK.

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