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olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 8:53 am

With globalization taking a hit, USA forcing UK to take part of trade war with China, Brexit view of a globalized economy will be complicated.

UK main export is cars to EU, Financial services to EU etc, it will need new export markets.

WTO is dead during Trump and bigger rules.

So UK will come back to the table during 2022 ;-)
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 9:38 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Britain is out because of the will of you and other Brexiteers and Brexitremists.


Yep that's because the majority voted leave :D


And we are seeing the consequences of such a move.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It has been shown that Britain has no leverage or minimal leverage if you like (because you will say: yeah they have leverage on security of something trivial like that), we have seen none of the easy trade deals, none. We have seen the economic consequences (sure obscured now because of Corona).


:rotfl: the only thing you have shown is you still don't understand what leaving means


So what does leave mean, according to you?

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So time to make a choice, accept your status in the world and bag for a trade deal (as we have seen giving in to pressure from America with Huawei) or go alone, go and trade for WTO for a while,


There's no need to beg and as so far we haven't, the negotiations with the EU haven't finished yet.


Correct and ask for ridiculous things like wanting to have veto rights on new members of a club you aren't a member of, it will never be finished in name and will be finished in reality.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
see how that turns out and see if all the lies fed to you y the Brexitrimist will turn out to be the truth -


Well wont be long if the negotiations continue the way they have been going


Correct, so we will see the lies more and more being exposed.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
let's do this giant gamble over the lives of ordinary Britains, not that you care in Australia, but hey, what does that matter that it will hurt me more financially than you.


:rotfl: :hissyfit: :rotfl: :hissyfit: :rotfl:


As always mixed messages from you :roll:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1951
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 10:06 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Britain is out because of the will of you and other Brexiteers and Brexitremists.


Yep that's because the majority voted leave :D


And we are seeing the consequences of such a move.


that's the difference between a democracy and a dictatorship :D

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It has been shown that Britain has no leverage or minimal leverage if you like (because you will say: yeah they have leverage on security of something trivial like that), we have seen none of the easy trade deals, none. We have seen the economic consequences (sure obscured now because of Corona).


:rotfl: the only thing you have shown is you still don't understand what leaving means


So what does leave mean, according to you?


just read back over the various threads and see for yourself :banghead:

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So time to make a choice, accept your status in the world and bag for a trade deal (as we have seen giving in to pressure from America with Huawei) or go alone, go and trade for WTO for a while,


There's no need to beg and as so far we haven't, the negotiations with the EU haven't finished yet.


Correct and ask for ridiculous things like wanting to have veto rights on new members of a club you aren't a member of, it will never be finished in name and will be finished in reality.


its a negotiation, if you don't ask :twocents:

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
see how that turns out and see if all the lies fed to you y the Brexitrimist will turn out to be the truth -


Well wont be long if the negotiations continue the way they have been going


Correct, so we will see the lies more and more being exposed.


if you say so :yawn: and :wave:

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
let's do this giant gamble over the lives of ordinary Britains, not that you care in Australia, but hey, what does that matter that it will hurt me more financially than you.


:rotfl: :hissyfit: :rotfl: :hissyfit: :rotfl:


As always mixed messages from you :roll:


no mixed message in that just laughing at what you wrote :rotfl: :D
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 10:32 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Yep that's because the majority voted leave :D


And we are seeing the consequences of such a move.


that's the difference between a democracy and a dictatorship :D


Actually you believe in the dictatorship of the majority, that is a subtle difference between that a democracy.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

:rotfl: the only thing you have shown is you still don't understand what leaving means


So what does leave mean, according to you?


just read back over the various threads and see for yourself :banghead:


I cannot remember all the bull you. have been posted here, sorry.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

There's no need to beg and as so far we haven't, the negotiations with the EU haven't finished yet.


Correct and ask for ridiculous things like wanting to have veto rights on new members of a club you aren't a member of, it will never be finished in name and will be finished in reality.


its a negotiation, if you don't ask :twocents:


Ask for something ridiculous and you won't be taken seriously. But heck you could always ask, never been in serious negotiations I guess, so you are excused.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Well wont be long if the negotiations continue the way they have been going


Correct, so we will see the lies more and more being exposed.


if you say so :yawn: and :wave:


we see it happening........

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

:rotfl: :hissyfit: :rotfl: :hissyfit: :rotfl:


As always mixed messages from you :roll:


no mixed message in that just laughing at what you wrote :rotfl: :D


great to be of some entertainment to you. At least you are getting something out of it, you're not absorbing any new thoughts or excepting any facts presented over and over again, so I guess it is at least something................... :roll:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 11:16 am

Why do you 2 always start the same debate over and over again. Why do you do the same thing again and again and yet expect a different outcome?
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 1:07 pm

I am actually also getting bored of this.

I think that both sides need to respect that either side will take the decision for UK and EU members what is long term best for the side. Nor EU or UK has a obligation to nor shall sign any FTA that do not fulfill this criteria.

Behind the scenes I see that many EU countries and leaders see an advantage to give more time in order to make UK financial services to move to the continent, and in covid times let make UK suffer closing of vehicle industry and not the EU members if possible.

Even I see that UK will still purchase Scania trucks, Volvo trucks, Mercedes and BMW while it is not so obvious that EU will purchase Japan produced Nissan or UK produced Nissan.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 1:30 pm

olle wrote:
I am actually also getting bored of this.

I think that both sides need to respect that either side will take the decision for UK and EU members what is long term best for the side. Nor EU or UK has a obligation to nor shall sign any FTA that do not fulfill this criteria.


I agree, although I am far less convinced the UK government would sign a FTA even if it is in their long term best intrest.

At present there seems to be a political desire in the UK to demonstrate to the fullest the fact Britain is no longer an EU memberstate, to the point it is gtting almost absurd.

Just because the UK can deviate, doesn't mean it should: just because it can conclude own deals outside of the EU, doesn't mean it must renounce on one with the EU.

The behaviour of the UK towards the EU is one of an ex-colony to an imperial oppressor: the EU is nowhere near that!
The UK was a member of the EU by its own choice and ended its participation in this transnational cooperation framework of European nations by its own choice, after delaying its formal exit no less than 3 times, also entirely by its own choice: a little bit of sobriety would be highly appropriate here, because there are things said by British politicians -even today- about the EU which they'd never dare to say about any other country or trading block they envisage to conclude a trade deal with...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 1:32 pm

olle wrote:
I am actually also getting bored of this.


Me too.......

olle wrote:
I think that both sides need to respect that either side will take the decision for UK and EU members what is long term best for the side. Nor EU or UK has a obligation to nor shall sign any FTA that do not fulfill this criteria.


I do not see any deal which is acceptable to the EU and the Brexit hardliners on the horizon, so a hard Brexit it is. And I am fine with that now. We will see what Scotland and Northern Island are going to do. Not our freaking problem anymore.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 1:37 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
olle wrote:
I am actually also getting bored of this.

I think that both sides need to respect that either side will take the decision for UK and EU members what is long term best for the side. Nor EU or UK has a obligation to nor shall sign any FTA that do not fulfill this criteria.


I agree, although I am far less convinced the UK government would sign a FTA even if it is in their long term best intrest.

At present there seems to be a political desire in the UK to demonstrate to the fullest the fact Britain is no longer an EU memberstate, to the point it is gtting almost absurd.

Just because the UK can deviate, doesn't mean it should: just because it can conclude own deals outside of the EU, doesn't mean it must renounce on one with the EU.

The behaviour of the UK towards the EU is one of an ex-colony to an imperial oppressor: the EU is nowhere near that!
The UK was a member of the EU by its own choice and ended its participation in this transnational cooperation framework of European nations by its own choice, after delaying its formal exit no less than 3 times, also entirely by its own choice: a little bit of sobriety would be highly appropriate here, because there are things said by British politicians -even today- about the EU which they'd never dare to say about any other country or trading block they envisage to conclude a trade deal with...


I think UK need to get a No Deal in order to not get a knife in the back history like Germany succeeded with exactly 100 years ago. I see tendencies that brexit UK is preparing its story in such way independent how it go it is EU and remainers fault whatever happens. In this matter the Covid is sent from heaven. Now everybody can blame both failed economy and FTA negotiations on Covid.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 1:51 pm

olle wrote:
I think UK need to get a No Deal in order to not get a knife in the back history like Germany succeeded with exactly 100 years ago.

I honnestly don't know what psychological disorder it is we're currently seeing, but it increasingly does seem like even a "No deal" is not enough: one would almost think that to some in the UK Government, Brexit should mean "NO TRADE" with the EU any longer?
As was pointed out before: you can take the UK out of the EU, but you can't take the EU out of the UK; the proximity (full surrounding even) and the sheer size of UK-EU trade make it impossible.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 2:01 pm

Yeah it also seems the Tories are ready to accept anything from the US, and sell their country with nothing in return.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 2:03 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
olle wrote:
I think UK need to get a No Deal in order to not get a knife in the back history like Germany succeeded with exactly 100 years ago.

I honnestly don't know what psychological disorder it is we're currently seeing, but it increasingly does seem like even a "No deal" is not enough: one would almost think that to some in the UK Government, Brexit should mean "NO TRADE" with the EU any longer?
As was pointed out before: you can take the UK out of the EU, but you can't take the EU out of the UK; the proximity (full surrounding even) and the sheer size of UK-EU trade make it impossible.


Facts don't seem to matter anymore in this great debate, only the image presented. So yeah, I think Olle is right, the UK needs to have a "no deal" to get it out of its system. Things have gone way too far to see a way back to take a sensible course.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 2:38 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
olle wrote:
I think UK need to get a No Deal in order to not get a knife in the back history like Germany succeeded with exactly 100 years ago.

I honnestly don't know what psychological disorder it is we're currently seeing, but it increasingly does seem like even a "No deal" is not enough: one would almost think that to some in the UK Government, Brexit should mean "NO TRADE" with the EU any longer?
As was pointed out before: you can take the UK out of the EU, but you can't take the EU out of the UK; the proximity (full surrounding even) and the sheer size of UK-EU trade make it impossible.


What we see is that of something is simple with low practical barriers trade will happen and increase. If not slowly the trade will either stop on certain level or decrease.

Trade is increasing faster inside eu then with outside. The same is fact inside euro area then with non euro area.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 3:44 pm

Did we already discuss the rumour that the EU will give the UK its way about fisheries if the UK gives something to the UK? Dutch website nu.nl and Irish rte.ie report this, but surprisingly nothing on the guardian.co.uk or bbc.co.uk (most of their stories are still COVID-19 related it seems)

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0526/1142647-brexit-fish-talks/
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 3:59 pm

LJ wrote:
Did we already discuss the rumour that the EU will give the UK its way about fisheries if the UK gives something to the UK? Dutch website nu.nl and Irish rte.ie report this, but surprisingly nothing on the guardian.co.uk or bbc.co.uk (most of their stories are still COVID-19 related it seems)

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0526/1142647-brexit-fish-talks/



We'll see what happens with the fishery. It is mostly for show anyhow, the fishery is such a small part of either the UK or EU economy, it doesn't matter anyhow.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 6:21 pm

LJ wrote:
Did we already discuss the rumour that the EU will give the UK its way about fisheries if the UK gives something to the UK? Dutch website nu.nl and Irish rte.ie report this, but surprisingly nothing on the guardian.co.uk or bbc.co.uk (most of their stories are still COVID-19 related it seems)

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0526/1142647-brexit-fish-talks/


The devil will be in the detail, I have read a couple of conflicting reports on the issue. From a UK perspective it was never about stopping the EU from using the waters but more about UK control of those waters and we will issue the quota and fishing right like any sovereign nation across the world does.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 6:33 pm

A101 wrote:
LJ wrote:
Did we already discuss the rumour that the EU will give the UK its way about fisheries if the UK gives something to the UK? Dutch website nu.nl and Irish rte.ie report this, but surprisingly nothing on the guardian.co.uk or bbc.co.uk (most of their stories are still COVID-19 related it seems)

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0526/1142647-brexit-fish-talks/


The devil will be in the detail, I have read a couple of conflicting reports on the issue. From a UK perspective it was never about stopping the EU from using the waters but more about UK control of those waters and we will issue the quota and fishing right like any sovereign nation across the world does.


Which in the end might be the same quota held previously... there's a lot of grandstanding going on right now, especially on this ridiculous issue;
- fisheries represent litterally nothing to the economy of the UK
- without reciprocal access to the EU market for UK fish, British fisheries is toast
- Britain can't effectively patrol their waters anyway

It's all in the mind: 'I give you the privilege to come and fish here, vs. you have the right to fish here".

BTW- Belgian fishing boats have enternal access to British waters anyway, it turns out.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/0 ... 6-charter/
Belgium is seriously considering legally enforcing this historic right should the FTA between the UK and the EU not provide for at least the same provisions...
On 2 previous occasions Belgium referred to the charter and each time the UK decided not to contest the right, as legal advice taken by the government suggested the royal charter from 1666 is indeed still legally enforceable today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisheries_Privilege_(1666)
:-)
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 7:50 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
BTW- Belgian fishing boats have enternal access to British waters anyway, it turns out.


that is hilarious.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 8:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
BTW- Belgian fishing boats have enternal access to British waters anyway, it turns out.


that is hilarious.


it's not hilarious, it's dead serious in fact!
The Charter issued by King Charles II grants eternal rights to 50 boats from the city of Bruges to fish in British coastal waters for as long as there's a Kingdom in England and Scotland.
The charter was considered to be a demonstration of personal gratitude for the hospitality during His Majesty's exile there from 1656 to 1659 during the Cromwell years.
The charter was never tested until 1851 due to the numerous conflicts that affected Europe between its signing and the mid-nineteenth century.
On 2 occasions since then, the validity of the charter was recognized by the British government however:
In 1849 Britain initiated a negotiation with the newly founded Kingdom of Belgium about a fishing convention with the aim to keep exclusive fishing rights for British fishermen up to 3 nautical miles from the coast. Belgium spoke of the existence of the Fisheries Privilege of 1666 in a letter to the British Foreign Minister who was initially unaware of the Charter, after which the British foreign minister H.J. Temple recognized the existence of the Charter in a letter to the Belgian ambassador.
In 1963, the issue of the Charter of 1666 came to the fore once more when a Belgian fishing boat "'King Charles the Second" (Z.264) was accosted by the Royal Navy off the coast of Seaford (East Sussex) Surprisingly the case never came before the courts and according to papers released in 1993 under the 30 year rule the Attorney General at the time advised the British agriculture minister to avoid a court case because he considered the Charter was still legally enforceable.
Last edited by sabenapilot on Tue May 26, 2020 9:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 8:45 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
BTW- Belgian fishing boats have enternal access to British waters anyway, it turns out.


that is hilarious.


it's not hilarious, it's dead serious in fact!


I don't doubt it, but it is a hilarious fact given that the Brexitremist - mr. Farage - made fishing a symbol of their "independence" war.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 9:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

that is hilarious.


it's not hilarious, it's dead serious in fact!


I don't doubt it, but it is a hilarious fact given that the Brexitremist - mr. Farage - made fishing a symbol of their "independence" war.


Yeah, but not only did they demonstratively not understand how the EU works, they also clearly do not know their own country's historic commitments very well.
1666 is a long time ago indeed, but the Royal Charter stills stands today (according to legal advice last taken by the UK government in 1963), so you would think that people who think highly of their country's tradition-laden institutions and practices and with a particular focus on absolute sovereignty over British fisheries would have some knowlegde of this truly unique historic matter...
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue May 26, 2020 9:34 pm

Sabenapilot wrote:

TW- Belgian fishing boats have enternal access to British waters anyway, it turns out.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/0 ... 6-charter/
Belgium is seriously considering legally enforcing this historic right should the FTA between the UK and the EU not provide for at least the same provisions...
On 2 previous occasions Belgium referred to the charter and each time the UK decided not to contest the right, as legal advice taken by the government suggested the royal charter from 1666 is indeed still legally enforceable today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisheries_Privilege_(1666)



Both sides refused to take it to court,but according to this site it may have been superseded by subsequent treaties, take it to court see how ya go!!


Access to Fisheries in the United Kingdom’s Territorial Sea after its Withdrawal from the European Union: A European and International Law Perspective

As a result of this rather lengthy historical exposition, it appears highly unlikely that the Bruges Privileges, if considered a title under public international law, would still be valid today. Even if one considers that the periods of non-usage between 1674 and 1835, as well as for about a century between ca. 1860 and the 1960s, did not invalidate the title, it has been terminated by subsequent treaty-law. It is likely that already the 1852 voisinage agreement was at least implicitly intended to replace the Bruges Privileges with a modern fisheries access agreement. In any event, the considerations presented above with respect to the effect of the LFC, in particular Article 9(1) LFC, on historic fishing rights would also generally apply to historic titles such as the Bruges Privileges.



https://www.gojil.eu/issues/prepublishe ... z_2019.pdf
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed May 27, 2020 3:32 am

I'm sure Spain would love to learn that the UK considers centuries old treaties null and void, ideal to claim Gibraltar back !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed May 27, 2020 4:05 am

Aesma wrote:
I'm sure Spain would love to learn that the UK considers centuries old treaties null and void, ideal to claim Gibraltar back !


Nope if you read it; it was terminated by a subsequent treaty.

If you make another treaty any previous treaty is terminated. Far as I am awere the UK hasn’t made a new treaty in relation to the Gib.
 
AeroVega
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed May 27, 2020 4:10 am

Dutchy wrote:
I do not see any deal which is acceptable to the EU and the Brexit hardliners on the horizon, so a hard Brexit it is.


The EU and the UK are currently negotiating a lose/lose deal. This turns out to be very difficult.

One positive effect of a hard Brexit (in which both sides lose everything) is that it is only possible to negotiate a win/win deal after that. That should be much easier.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed May 27, 2020 8:17 am

AeroVega wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I do not see any deal which is acceptable to the EU and the Brexit hardliners on the horizon, so a hard Brexit it is.


The EU and the UK are currently negotiating a lose/lose deal. This turns out to be very difficult.


Brexit is lose-lose and that is indeed difficult. It is the first time a deal needs to be negotiated which brings te partners less close together.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed May 27, 2020 8:19 am

The problem is that at least one side does not see it as a lose-lose deal, but a a chance for a big win.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed May 27, 2020 8:20 am

So what happens with the current fishing quotas that UK companies held, and then sold to EU companies? Will these become null and void? If they are, and new licenses are created for UK fishing fleets, will they be stopped by the UK govenment from selling them off again? Because those big 'fishing' companies have no interest in actual fishing. At the same time the UK govenment has never really acknowleged (correct me if i'm wrong) that UK quotas are held by non UK companies.

Amusing situation for such a tiny portion of the economy.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed May 27, 2020 8:24 am

seahawk wrote:
The problem is that at least one side does not see it as a lose-lose deal, but a chance for a big win.


Yup, one side is delusional and has committed to that point of view.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed May 27, 2020 8:41 am

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The problem is that at least one side does not see it as a lose-lose deal, but a chance for a big win.


Yup, one side is delusional and has committed to that point of view.


In all honesty, they do implicitly acknowlegde there will be an economic loss for the UK in case of a 'no deal', although they try to make it sound temporarily only ("in 50 years from now, we might see the economic benefits of Brexit", dixit the Leader of the House, JRM), it's just that they pretend to think that's the price to pay to gain something nobody every quantified before buying into it: the illusional idea that Britain must have full and total sovereignty, and take it out of the hands of the hidden elites that were said to run Britain into the ground.

Luckily Britain is now run by integer and ordinary people, who set rules for all yet break those themselves, who drive 260 miles north with a suspected COVID-19 case in their car only to return to work the other day, who take 50 mile detours to scenic sights allegedly to test their eyesight in a rather unconventional way, who give television interviews in the garden of Nr. 10 despite having no elected nor public mandate whatsoever and who refuse to aplogize for their top notch elitist behavior…. So lucky to have these people in power indeed!
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed May 27, 2020 9:15 am

sabenapilot wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The problem is that at least one side does not see it as a lose-lose deal, but a chance for a big win.


Yup, one side is delusional and has committed to that point of view.


In all honesty, they do implicitly acknowlegde there will be an economic loss for the UK in case of a 'no deal', although they try to make it sound temporarily only ("in 50 years from now, we might see the economic benefits of Brexit", dixit the Leader of the House, JRM), it's just that they pretend to think that's the price to pay to gain something nobody every quantified before buying into it: the illusional idea that Britain must have full and total sovereignty, and take it out of the hands of the hidden elites that were said to run Britain into the ground.

Luckily Britain is now run by integer and ordinary people, who set rules for all yet break those themselves, who drive 260 miles north with a suspected COVID-19 case in their car only to return to work the other day, who take 50 mile detours to scenic sights allegedly to test their eyesight in a rather unconventional way, who give television interviews in the garden of Nr. 10 despite having no elected nor public mandate whatsoever and who refuse to aplogize for their top notch elitist behavior…. So lucky to have these people in power indeed!



Brexit has been sold to the general public, at least before the election as the way to increase the UK GDP by a huge number. Then the day after Brexit election the numbers changed to give advantage in 50 years or 2066.

The general public in UK voted for Brexit to get better off.

Brexit opened up for a fast change of EU. Covid make these changes even faster. Latest is that Wolfgang Schäuble even moves from saying that EU shall never have common debt to support weaker countries to start to accept that direct help will be needed. The Swedish minister Hans Dahlgren representing until now Swedish view that EU budgets shall not be increased show also that the Swedish position is changing.

Northern Europe start to wake up to a situation where the SM could dissapear with a distaster for Northern Europe. Until now it has only been discussion about countries in the south and east taking our money, now we see that they might walk away and that will leave countries like Germany, Holland and Sweden in dire situation.

I think that UK now need to understand that the FTA agreements and negotiations for EU is not as important as to save the SM after the covid impact. Brexit is actually yesterdays news, and many in Europe probably consider like me that a UK leaving with No Deal on WTO means that a win win negotiation comes next.

Probably the current government in UK will have by then been replaced with a less Brexit religious government.


------------------------------------------------
https://www.politico.eu/article/commiss ... -to-watch/

Sweden and the other three countries in the EU's "slim" group will need to compromise on the major recovery package after the corona crisis. This is what EU Minister Hans Dahlgren told the DN.

On Wednesday, the European Commission announces its plan for how the Union will emerge from its most difficult economic crisis to date.

President Ursula von der Leyen is expected to present a detailed proposal for a recovery fund of the order of EUR 500 billion, money to be borrowed by the European Commission and which will then be distributed to the most affected Member States and industries.

A number of countries, mainly in southern Europe, have long objected that the aid should come in the form of loans. Last week, they were helped by heavyweights France and Germany when Emmanuel Macron and Angela Merkel jointly proposed a gigantic recovery fund to be awarded.

For Angela Merkel, this was a reverse - Germany has traditionally opposed to guaranteeing the debts of others. This time, she believes that cohesion within the EU, in the future the Union's future, is at stake.

At the same time, the group that has been called the "slim four" - consisting of Sweden, Austria, the Netherlands and Denmark - is adhering to its line that the entire recovery package should consist of loans that are then repaid.

This was emphasized by EU Minister Hans Dahlgren once again at a video meeting with his colleagues from other Member States on Tuesday afternoon. He also said that Sweden "has nothing to be ashamed of when it comes to European solidarity".

Germany obviously thinks that one must think in other paths during this crisis. Why is Sweden so stubbornly stuck to its line?

- We have also said that it is important to accelerate the European economies, says Dahlgren.

- But in the matter of loans or grants, we have a different view. There are those who say it should only be grants. But that would mean a steep increase in membership fees to the EU in the near future. And as you know, Sweden is already a big net contributor.

It has been talked about that there can be a compromise so that, for example, 70 per cent become grants and 30 per cent loans. What is Sweden prepared to compromise on?

- I can say like this that in order for it to be a decision we must reach consensus. And then it has to compromise. But exactly what Sweden can compromise on I do not intend to say now.


https://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/sveri ... ronapaket/
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed May 27, 2020 10:34 am

Reinhardt wrote:
So what happens with the current fishing quotas that UK companies held, and then sold to EU companies? Will these become null and void? If they are, and new licenses are created for UK fishing fleets, will they be stopped by the UK govenment from selling them off again? Because those big 'fishing' companies have no interest in actual fishing. At the same time the UK govenment has never really acknowleged (correct me if i'm wrong) that UK quotas are held by non UK companies.

Amusing situation for such a tiny portion of the economy.


The position of the UK seems to be that they'll not change much. They seem to think of requiring a percentage to be brought to UK shores for selling the fish. Companies from third countries who want to buy UK fishing companies would be subject to a maximum share of the company. The current quotas would remain as is (also for quotas held by non-UK companies). However, some in the fishing industry object to this view and want the companies to land tall heir fish on UK soil (and thus not a percentage). Moreover, they want quotas held by non-UK companies to be revoked with some sort of compensation.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed May 27, 2020 10:49 am

LJ wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
So what happens with the current fishing quotas that UK companies held, and then sold to EU companies? Will these become null and void? If they are, and new licenses are created for UK fishing fleets, will they be stopped by the UK govenment from selling them off again? Because those big 'fishing' companies have no interest in actual fishing. At the same time the UK govenment has never really acknowleged (correct me if i'm wrong) that UK quotas are held by non UK companies.

Amusing situation for such a tiny portion of the economy.


The position of the UK seems to be that they'll not change much. They seem to think of requiring a percentage to be brought to UK shores for selling the fish. Companies from third countries who want to buy UK fishing companies would be subject to a maximum share of the company. The current quotas would remain as is (also for quotas held by non-UK companies). However, some in the fishing industry object to this view and want the companies to land tall heir fish on UK soil (and thus not a percentage). Moreover, they want quotas held by non-UK companies to be revoked with some sort of compensation.


the truth is that probably behind doors, neither, EU including France and Ireland or UK cares about the fish. It is 1% of GDP.

UK financial services and car production access to SM, EU citizen in UK, NI border etc is much more important. But, UK and French fishing boats make nice news.

Macron nor Boris wants their fishing boats feeling that they are not supported in national elections.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed May 27, 2020 11:56 am

In part due to Brexit, 2/3rds of British citizens living and working outside the UK won't return to the home islands permanently. I am not sure if this includes those living and working in UK controlled or commonwealth territories and countries. https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/near ... 05675.html
 
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zkojq
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed May 27, 2020 2:27 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
The UK seems to want to become a low cost provider without any of the safety, labor, financial regulations a civilized country adopts to protect its citizens and economy. And is surprised that the EU says, 'no'. Only the UK is suppose to have sovereignty, not the EU. They treated India pretty much the same way.


If there's one thing we've learned from Brexit it is that Colonial Thinking is still widespread in England. Case in point: the bloke here in these threads who thought Canada would be part of the UK again once brexit was done. :boggled:

olle wrote:
UK Demands to have veto over EU future;

"As an example, the UK wants to have input into any future application by a third party to join the EU, and for the EU to take into consideration UK interests in any such negotiations. This goes beyond audacious.


:rotfl: I am waiting to hear from our resident experts about how this is a personally reasonable request and how anyone opposing such a mechanism is blatantly trying to infringe on UK Sovereignty. ;)

sabenapilot wrote:
'Bargain Basement Britain' is about to open... exactly as expected,

The plan is dead obvious: have the masses vote for you in a desperate attempt to rise their decade long stagnated wages by taking control of immigration (Trump style economics) prior to the elections, and then claim you have to open up the country economically (traditional Tory style economics), which will ironically wipe away most of the jobs of those who voted for it.

Yep, there must have been quite a few who popped a bottle of French Champagne on election night, laughing at all those idiots who voted to make themselves jobless or a working poor at best, all while turning the fatcat Tory party sponsors even wealthier than they already were! Flagwaving really turns out to have been very expensive for millions of Brits! I hope they've all enjoyed the show of the past 4 years, because the casiers are eagerly waiting to collect all they can from the participants of this 'historic event'. ;)


Mhm. BoJo and his cronies are insisting on red-lines that they have to be able to give British workers lower safety and environmental standards, less paid holiday, less sick pay and much worse conditions than their EU counterparts. Yet all the brexiteers still cheer for this. :scratchchin:

gkirk wrote:
Seems that Boris and co know that Scottish Independence is coming :D


Let's hope so!

Reinhardt wrote:
Who knows, maybe the events of the last few days may slowly start to push public opinion against Boris. In any normal country he wouldn't have even got to be PM but now he's starting to show all the reasons why those of us at the time were screaming that both Brexit and him being PM was a monumental mistake may start to get less of kicking. The diehards will never leave him, but maybe, just maybe there are a few decent people left in England who will waver. It also seems we have a functioning opposition now too, about time.


Once Boris has pissed away his current majority, it wouldn't surprise me at all for him to agree to another referendum - if Scotland does break away then he will have an overwhelming majority in Westminster which would take decades for even him and his cronies to piss away. The current bunch would have no issue whatsoever breaking up the union for a few more years in power.

Reinhardt wrote:
If Cummings does go, expect Boris to be even more useless and Gove to assert himself even more to line himself up as the natural sucessor.

The more time Gove spends in front of a camera the better!

https://twitter.com/Independent/status/ ... 5859983360

olle wrote:
Even I see that UK will still purchase Scania trucks, Volvo trucks, Mercedes and BMW while it is not so obvious that EU will purchase Japan produced Nissan or UK produced Nissan.


Well the EU won't be purchasing UK produced Nissans because Nissan is shutting down the Sunderland plant because they can't be sure that they'll be able to export them to the EU27 without tariffs. Japan produced Nissans on the other hand aren't subject to tariffs thanks to the EU-Japan FTA. The brexiteers have managed to free themselves of all those Sunderland jobs.

olle wrote:
I think UK need to get a No Deal in order to not get a knife in the back history like Germany succeeded with exactly 100 years ago. I see tendencies that brexit UK is preparing its story in such way independent how it go it is EU and remainers fault whatever happens. In this matter the Covid is sent from heaven. Now everybody can blame both failed economy and FTA negotiations on Covid.


Indeed. The economic Armageddon thanks to Corona means they can blame all the bad consequences of a no-deal end to the implementation period on Corona and claim that everyone else in the EU is doing just as bad. Under normal economic conditions, no-deal would mean people in the UK would get upset at rising prices and job losses due to trade barriers whilst everything is (more or less) business as usual in the EU.

sabenapilot wrote:
I honnestly don't know what psychological disorder it is we're currently seeing, but it increasingly does seem like even a "No deal" is not enough: one would almost think that to some in the UK Government, Brexit should mean "NO TRADE" with the EU any longer?


No trade = maximum independence!
First to fly the 787-9
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed May 27, 2020 4:14 pm

ltbewr wrote:
In part due to Brexit, 2/3rds of British citizens living and working outside the UK won't return to the home islands permanently. I am not sure if this includes those living and working in UK controlled or commonwealth territories and countries. https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/near ... 05675.html


Brexit was the reason that I left the UK (for work reasons). When I left I always intended to return, but the longer time goes on and the more rediculous things get the longer I doubt whether I ever will. I know of many other Brits abroad who say the same.

Until there is some serious change of attitudes in govenment and the populace I don't think I will return. I still see it as home, and love lots of it dearly, but some bits of grass are greener on the other side right now.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu May 28, 2020 1:12 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Luckily Britain is now run by integer and ordinary people, who set rules for all yet break those themselves, who drive 260 miles north with a suspected COVID-19 case in their car only to return to work the other day, who take 50 mile detours to scenic sights allegedly to test their eyesight in a rather unconventional way, who give television interviews in the garden of Nr. 10 despite having no elected nor public mandate whatsoever and who refuse to aplogize for their top notch elitist behavior…. So lucky to have these people in power indeed!


Hey! That's our supreme leader you're taking about there... Have some respect!
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu May 28, 2020 2:23 pm

olle wrote:
With globalization taking a hit, USA forcing UK to take part of trade war with China, Brexit view of a globalized economy will be complicated.

Why would globalization take a hit, as far as we know the EU and China are fine, the USA and the much smaller UK are not the end all to globalization. The combined EU / China trade group is larger than the USA / UK and with all the other nations that the EU has influence over via their comprehensive trade deals, I would think globalization will be fine.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu May 28, 2020 2:28 pm

zkojq wrote:
olle wrote:
UK Demands to have veto over EU future;

"As an example, the UK wants to have input into any future application by a third party to join the EU, and for the EU to take into consideration UK interests in any such negotiations. This goes beyond audacious.


:rotfl: I am waiting to hear from our resident experts about how this is a personally reasonable request and how anyone opposing such a mechanism is blatantly trying to infringe on UK Sovereignty. ;)


Well to be fair, sabenapilot already gave a reason why such a request has some validity, any agreement that the UK signs with the EU now will have other consequences in the future as the EU either expands or contracts and the UK makes additional trade deals. If agreements are made in stone and ring fenced as such then yes, such request by either side is off the wall.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu May 28, 2020 2:31 pm

Someone just found the elephant in the room;

80% of uk is services and while the brexit is about disconnect from eu law this will mean it will be "complicated" for uk service sector to sct in EU and make the FTA include services.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12881 ... nand-menon
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 305
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu May 28, 2020 3:19 pm

olle wrote:
Someone just found the elephant in the room;

80% of uk is services and while the brexit is about disconnect from eu law this will mean it will be "complicated" for uk service sector to sct in EU and make the FTA include services.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12881 ... nand-menon


They've only just realised this? So they spent all their time talking about fishing, farming and tiny manufacturing that is not coming back to the UK and ignore services whilst the rest of us have been shouting since day one to look at the make up of the UK economy and what Brexit will do to services. I guess people see services and think banking, finance etc and just think everyone's a millionair stockbroker who doesn't pay any tax so we don't need them.

Mind boggling.
 
gkirk
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu May 28, 2020 5:19 pm

Nissan European HQ will be in Sunderland I see
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu May 28, 2020 5:38 pm

gkirk wrote:
Nissan European HQ will be in Sunderland I see


Don't know what it's got to do with anything, but source: https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/COMPAN ... egion_navi. --> European HQ Switserland.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu May 28, 2020 6:22 pm

Dutchy wrote:
gkirk wrote:
Nissan European HQ will be in Sunderland I see


Don't know what it's got to do with anything, but source: https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/COMPAN ... egion_navi. --> European HQ Switserland.


This is in line with EU Japan FTA. Why shall Japan vehicle industry have production inside EU?
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu May 28, 2020 6:25 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
olle wrote:
Someone just found the elephant in the room;

80% of uk is services and while the brexit is about disconnect from eu law this will mean it will be "complicated" for uk service sector to sct in EU and make the FTA include services.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12881 ... nand-menon


They've only just realised this? So they spent all their time talking about fishing, farming and tiny manufacturing that is not coming back to the UK and ignore services whilst the rest of us have been shouting since day one to look at the make up of the UK economy and what Brexit will do to services. I guess people see services and think banking, finance etc and just think everyone's a millionair stockbroker who doesn't pay any tax so we don't need them.

Mind boggling.


The problem is that services normally not shows under "export" but internal services even if it generates a bill and payment from another EU country.

If services is included in trade balance the numbers shown would look very different compared to the official ones.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri May 29, 2020 1:30 pm

June will be an entertaining month I guess....

The British have not understood, or they do not want to understand, that Brexit has consequences for them,” EU chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier said in a punchy reaction to recent public statements by his British counterpart David Frost.

......

But he warned: “We wish to conclude a partnership and balanced agreement with this great, friendly, neighboring and allied country … But that will never be at the expense of the single market, European consumers and European business, as the British are trying to achieve.



I think Barnier may need to tattoo that on Johnson's back :)
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sabenapilot
Posts: 3286
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri May 29, 2020 2:11 pm

Olddog wrote:
The British have not understood, or they do not want to understand, that Brexit has consequences for them,” EU chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier said in a punchy reaction to recent public statements by his British counterpart David Frost.


The public statement he reacted to was this:

U.K. chief negotiator David Frost told MPs on the House of Commons' Brexit committee Wednesday that "Brussels' negotiating mandate needs to evolve".

:rotfl:

Michel Barnier immediately commented: “I would remind you that the United Kingdom is leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union; it’s not the EU leaving the United Kingdom. A third country like the United Kingdom will never dictate the conditions of access to our market for British goods, services, data or for workers and businesses: that sovereignty lies with memberstates only."

In other words: OUT means OUT: accept the full consequences and yes, it's going to hurt... a lot... but no worries: in just 50 years it may no longer, according to JRM. ;)
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri May 29, 2020 3:25 pm

res 'hurt', the EU has always said it will minimize the hurt, but that EU sovereignty must be respected. And uber alles, the Good Friday Agreement.
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LJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri May 29, 2020 5:16 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
OUT means OUT


Maybe the EU should only mention this as this is probably something what Johnson can understand.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun May 31, 2020 12:12 am

About fishing and my country, France, sure it's not big economically, just as it's not big in the UK, but there is still a significant difference : we actually eat the fish, and crustaceans, and molluscs...
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