A101
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:21 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Image




I think this needs to be modified to show where the actual red line is, with all the rhetoric that chart is not accurate either from an EU perspective
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3187
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:03 pm

Meanwhile ambassadors of the 27 EU member states are tightening the negotiating mandate of the EU even further.
After France managed to make their demand for unchanged access for EU fishing boats to British waters a prerequisite to even start negotiating a FTA and Spain succeeded in excluding the controversial territory of Gibraltar from any deal reached between the EU and the UK, Greece got a reference to the need 'to return unlawfully removed cultural objects to the EU country of origin' in the text, in what is to be interpreted as a reference to the Elgin marbles.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ium-Europe

Clearly, the EU has decided to systematically side with each of its member states and their demands whenever it has some historical dispute with the UK...
 
A101
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:29 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Meanwhile ambassadors of the 27 EU member states are tightening the negotiating mandate of the EU even further.
After France managed to make their demand for unchanged access for EU fishing boats to British waters a prerequisite to even start negotiating a FTA and Spain succeeded in excluding the controversial territory of Gibraltar from any deal reached between the EU and the UK, Greece got a reference to the need 'to return unlawfully removed cultural objects to the EU country of origin' in the text, in what is to be interpreted as a reference to the Elgin marbles.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ium-Europe

Clearly, the EU has decided to systematically side with each of its member states and their demands whenever it has some historical dispute with the UK...



As I said before the gulf is far to wide for an agreement to be reached . I realistically can’t see the talks going very far or even happening to be honest.

Boris must be wishing he didn’t even agree to the new WA, if it had been up to me I certainly would not have signed it.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3718
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:00 am

Airbus, food, and drugs. What else is a near total necessity, I am sure there are others. WTO does not even have functioning leadership right now as I understand. The EU and UK need to come up with agreements regarding certain items - particular by particular. A full trade agreement will take a few years.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9360
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:57 am

Airbus is a great advantage for the UK, as it controls a very important part of the production process and while some jobs would be lost in the UK, if Airbus suffers many more would be lost in France and Germany. The UK holds all cards.
 
olle
Posts: 1700
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:28 am

seahawk wrote:
Airbus is a great advantage for the UK, as it controls a very important part of the production process and while some jobs would be lost in the UK, if Airbus suffers many more would be lost in France and Germany. The UK holds all cards.



It is like reading this thread from 2016 all over again...
 
olle
Posts: 1700
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:33 am

tommy1808 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
So the EU is willing to decrease the safety of the people for political gains.


Not handing over citizens to non-EU countries is in the service of the safety of people.

best regards
Thomas



Sharing privacy info with third party not declared in treaties would be unlegal as well..
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12291
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:37 am

seahawk wrote:
Airbus is a great advantage for the UK, as it controls a very important part of the production process .


it doesn´t. A private companies with shareholders does, and if the UK government gets in the way factories can move surprisingly fast.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9360
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:52 am

olle wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Airbus is a great advantage for the UK, as it controls a very important part of the production process and while some jobs would be lost in the UK, if Airbus suffers many more would be lost in France and Germany. The UK holds all cards.



It is like reading this thread from 2016 all over again...


Has the British position changed since 2016?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12291
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:05 am

seahawk wrote:
olle wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Airbus is a great advantage for the UK, as it controls a very important part of the production process and while some jobs would be lost in the UK, if Airbus suffers many more would be lost in France and Germany. The UK holds all cards.



It is like reading this thread from 2016 all over again...


Has the British position changed since 2016?


Yup. From the softest of all possible Brexits (full market access, no limitation to move and so on) to "I don´t care if i die, i want my Brexit".

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9360
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:13 am

No, the Brexit campaign always wanted the hard Brexit.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12291
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:25 am

seahawk wrote:
No, the Brexit campaign always wanted the hard Brexit.


Yeah, they just told no one. Would interfere with their referendum fraud.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9360
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:28 am

No they did tell everyone. No EU jurisdiction, no compliance with EU legislation and no free movement alone always meant a hard Brexit, unless the EU would abandon their principal 4 pillars of dealing with other countries.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12291
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:39 am

seahawk wrote:
No they did tell everyone. No EU jurisdiction, no compliance with EU legislation and no free movement alone always meant a hard Brexit, unless the EU would abandon their principal 4 pillars of dealing with other countries.


you mean they suffer from a major case of schizophrenia?

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
Arion640
Posts: 2930
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:14 am

tommy1808 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
No, the Brexit campaign always wanted the hard Brexit.


Yeah, they just told no one. Would interfere with their referendum fraud.

best regards
Thomas


There is no such thing as hard brexit. Just brexit.
1973-2020
 
A101
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:56 am

tommy1808 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
olle wrote:


It is like reading this thread from 2016 all over again...


Has the British position changed since 2016?


Yup. From the softest of all possible Brexits (full market access, no limitation to move and so on) to "I don´t care if i die, i want my Brexit".

best regards
Thomas


No that’s factually incorrect, the Government ( Cameron ) said before the referenda that a vote to leave means a vote to leave the EU & single market


The Andrew Marr show (12/06/2016)The prime minister said:
What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the single market.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1382
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:21 am

Just do it. And lock that door. You should also close the Tunnel and Dover for more isolationism fun ;)
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
A101
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:54 am

Olddog wrote:


Just do it. And lock that door. You should also close the Tunnel and Dover for more isolationism fun



Being unencumbered to the EU is not a retreat into isolationism, it’s just that most feel uncomfortable with the need for deeper european political integration. You don’t have to be clairvoyant to see where the EU is headed in the future.
Last edited by A101 on Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1382
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:54 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Image




I think this needs to be modified to show where the actual red line is, with all the rhetoric that chart is not accurate either from an EU perspective



Remember when the EU showed that slide circa 2017. Since then the UK is making clear that the whole purpose of Brexit is to get rid off the LPF. The Eu deal moved accordingly. You should read http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?b ... qus_thread
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 11137
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:56 am

More project fear:

Last year 78 'Brexit companies' moved to the Netherlands, reports the Netherlands Foreign Investment Agency (NFIA) on Wednesday.

According to the NFIA, these companies together account for more than 4,200 jobs.


[url]Link in Dutch[/url]

So one of the few benefits for the Dutch economy. Although our job market is quite saturated, so no real need for these extra jobs, but still.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3187
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:18 pm

Olddog wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Image




I think this needs to be modified to show where the actual red line is, with all the rhetoric that chart is not accurate either from an EU perspective



Remember when the EU showed that slide circa 2017. Since then the UK is making clear that the whole purpose of Brexit is to get rid off the LPF. The EU deal moved accordingly. You should read http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?b ... qus_thread



The UK is obsessed with the flags above each type of relationship, singling out the Canada FTA in the lowest of the different categories of EU collaboration as its preferred option.

The EU however has never offered to simply copy-paste the Canadian FTA like the UK wants it to do; it has merely said it wants to negotiate a FTA with the UK should it wish so and has illustrated that option with 2 of its most recently concluded FTAs, the Canadian and the Korean one (both of which are different amongst them too, btw).

In short: the UK is AGAIN cherry picking, this time from the rack of EU FTAs to pick the one that suits its own needs best!

As a third country however, the EU is under no obligation whatsoever to accommodate the needs of the UK any longer by simply letting it choose its preferred FTA, it will negotiate any EU-UK FTA solely to its own needs, not those of the UK, meaning indeed certain attractive elements offered to others (in return for something else) won't be available to the UK as there's just not enough to gain from doing so this time: the EU is perfectly entitled to set its price for that, to which BoJo already signed up too, initially (see the Political Declaration).

It's naïve to think self-interest only apples to one party, while the other should not take it into account: it's the key miscalculation of Brexiteers from the start.

As long as the UK was an EU member (i.e. when that slide was produced), the EU was perfectly willing to fully accommodate for all its political demands as illustrated by the fact the slide above only shows BRITISH red lines and their corresponding next level...
Now that the UK has actually left the EU, the EU has to take care of just its own interests and thus can come up with some red lines of its own too. Who would have thought???
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 11137
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:58 pm

More project fear:

Last year 78 'Brexit companies' moved to the Netherlands, reports the Netherlands Foreign Investment Agency (NFIA) on Wednesday.

According to the NFIA, these companies together account for more than 4,200 jobs.


Link in Dutch

So one of the few benefits for the Dutch economy. Although our job market is quite saturated, so no real need for these extra jobs, but still.

(forgot to put the link in)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:02 pm

Sabenplot wrote:

The UK is obsessed with the flags above each type of relationship, singling out the Canada FTA in the lowest of the different categories of EU collaboration as its preferred option.



No: the EU produced it as an illustration saying TM was trying to cherry pick

Sabenplot wrote:
The EU however has never offered to simply copy-paste the Canadian FTA like the UK wants it to do; it has merely said it wants to negotiate a FTA with the UK should it wish so and has illustrated that option with 2 of its most recently concluded FTAs, the Canadian and the Korean one (both of which are different amongst them too, btw).



The UK is certainly not asking for a copy and paste agreement, that is your assertion, the UK have clearly said CETA type FTA which means as a template for a UK-EU Agreement.

The EU produced the slide to show what will be acceptable to the EU within the confines of the Uk red lines now that’s apparently not acceptable to the EU.


Sabenplot wrote:

In short: the UK is AGAIN cherry picking, this time from the rack of EU FTAs to pick the one that suits its own needs best!


No you have already told us what is not acceptable using the slide, and the UK has been forthcoming on what it will and will not accept. The EU is now disregarding those conditions and the shoe is now firmly on the other foot, the EU is now cherry picking what the relationship should be higher up the ladder when you have already shutdown the UK for those exact same reasons.

Sabenplot wrote:
As a third country however, the EU is under no obligation whatsoever to accommodate the needs of the UK any longer by simply letting it choose its preferred FTA, it will negotiate any EU-UK FTA solely to its own needs, not those of the UK,


That’s true but it also doesn’t meant the UK will roll over and play dead.


Sabenplot wrote:

the EU is perfectly entitled to set its price for that, to which BoJo already signed up too, initially (see the Political Declaration).


The EU held fast on even renegotiating the WA/PD under TM and very reluctant under BJ. The renegotiated WA/PD to the UK was the 80% solution to move forward remember no one even gave BJ a chance in hell of doing what he did let alone the hostile UK remain at all costs Parliament.

The PD is nothing more than a template to use for negotiations it does not put the onus on either party to continue along the lines if it’s not in its interests

Sabenplot wrote:

It's naïve to think self-interest only apples to one party, while the other should not take it into account: it's the key miscalculation of Brexiteers from the start.



Pot calling the kettle black.


Sabenplot wrote:
As long as the UK was an EU member (i.e. when that slide was produced), the EU was perfectly willing to fully accommodate for all its political demands as illustrated by the fact the slide above only shows BRITISH red lines and their corresponding next level...
Now that the UK has actually left the EU, the EU has to take care of just its own interests and thus can come up with some red lines of its own too. Who would have thought???



And never the Twain shall meet

The EU wants to protect it’s right to regulate but at the same time forgo the UK the rights to do the same, and continue using the ECJ for dispute resolution, effectively giving it continued power over the UK.
Last edited by A101 on Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 11137
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:05 pm

A101\ wrote:
The UK is certainly not asking for a copy and paste agreement, that is your assertion, the UK have clearly said CETA type FTA which means as a template for a UK-EU Agreement.


If that is the csse, then there will be no agreement given the timeline the UK has given itself.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
gkirk
Posts: 23398
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:32 pm

What a shambles. England dragging everyone else down because it wants to go back to its racist past.

Freedom, is on its way
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
A101
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:39 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101\ wrote:
The UK is certainly not asking for a copy and paste agreement, that is your assertion, the UK have clearly said CETA type FTA which means as a template for a UK-EU Agreement.


If that is the csse, then there will be no agreement given the timeline the UK has given itself.



Yep it is ambitious I agree, but the Treaty of Rome had only taken 9 mths to complete
 
A101
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:40 pm

gkirk wrote:
What a shambles. England dragging everyone else down because it wants to go back to its racist past.

Freedom, is on its way



How so?
 
Bostrom
Posts: 902
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:41 pm

Latest news: EU to adopt ‘points-based’ system for British holidaymakers (Yes, it's humour. Don't be upset.)
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:58 pm

A101 wrote:
And never the Twain shall meet

The EU wants to protect it’s right to regulate but at the same time forgo the UK the rights to do the same, and continue using the ECJ for dispute resolution, effectively giving it continued power over the UK.


I don’t follow. The WA - which is legally binding - already agreed some type of role for the ECJ.

According to the UK Institute for Government:

“The agreement has settled on a political resolution, then arbitration process rather than the establishment of a court (and this will form the basis of the dispute resolution process for the future framework).

The proposed role for the European Court of Justice (ECJ) in the withdrawal agreement reflects the ECJ’s position that only the ECJ can bind certain interpretations of EU law and concepts.”

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... -agreement

Has this changed? Is the EU proposing a new role for the ECJ?

Or has the agreed role suddenly become too controversial?
 
A101
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:33 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
And never the Twain shall meet

The EU wants to protect it’s right to regulate but at the same time forgo the UK the rights to do the same, and continue using the ECJ for dispute resolution, effectively giving it continued power over the UK.


I don’t follow. The WA - which is legally binding - already agreed some type of role for the ECJ.

According to the UK Institute for Government:

“The agreement has settled on a political resolution, then arbitration process rather than the establishment of a court (and this will form the basis of the dispute resolution process for the future framework).

The proposed role for the European Court of Justice (ECJ) in the withdrawal agreement reflects the ECJ’s position that only the ECJ can bind certain interpretations of EU law and concepts.”

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... -agreement

Has this changed? Is the EU proposing a new role for the ECJ?

Or has the agreed role suddenly become too controversial?


Yes for Northern Ireland only not the remain parts of the UK and only until the Stormont votes to either stay with the status quo of not. Also any future trade deal may or may not override the Northern Ireland protocol and that would have to be actully put into the FTA, but I expect the EU to dig their heels in at that and for the people of Northern Ireland to decide themselves.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:55 am

A101 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
And never the Twain shall meet

The EU wants to protect it’s right to regulate but at the same time forgo the UK the rights to do the same, and continue using the ECJ for dispute resolution, effectively giving it continued power over the UK.


I don’t follow. The WA - which is legally binding - already agreed some type of role for the ECJ.

According to the UK Institute for Government:

“The agreement has settled on a political resolution, then arbitration process rather than the establishment of a court (and this will form the basis of the dispute resolution process for the future framework).

The proposed role for the European Court of Justice (ECJ) in the withdrawal agreement reflects the ECJ’s position that only the ECJ can bind certain interpretations of EU law and concepts.”

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... -agreement

Has this changed? Is the EU proposing a new role for the ECJ?

Or has the agreed role suddenly become too controversial?


Yes for Northern Ireland only not the remain parts of the UK and only until the Stormont votes to either stay with the status quo of not. Also any future trade deal may or may not override the Northern Ireland protocol and that would have to be actully put into the FTA, but I expect the EU to dig their heels in at that and for the people of Northern Ireland to decide themselves.


Wait, what? Are the EU demanding the extension the jurisdiction of the ECJ beyond what is laid out in the WA? If so, can you point me to a source that explains what the EU want to expand jurisdiction or, above and beyond what is in the WA?
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9977
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:29 am

ElPistolero wrote:
Wait, what? Are the EU demanding the extension the jurisdiction of the ECJ beyond what is laid out in the WA? If so, can you point me to a source that explains what the EU want to expand jurisdiction or, above and beyond what is in the WA?

I think it is what role they will have after the end of 2020, however, based on what we know about the EU, any agreement which will see the UK closely aligned to the EU will see an influential role for the ECJ.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12291
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:37 am

par13del wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Wait, what? Are the EU demanding the extension the jurisdiction of the ECJ beyond what is laid out in the WA? If so, can you point me to a source that explains what the EU want to expand jurisdiction or, above and beyond what is in the WA?

I think it is what role they will have after the end of 2020, however, based on what we know about the EU, any agreement which will see the UK closely aligned to the EU will see an influential role for the ECJ.


Yes, where the UK made the sovereign decision to put itself under the jurisdiction of the ECJ it will be influential...

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
A101
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:06 am

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

I don’t follow. The WA - which is legally binding - already agreed some type of role for the ECJ.

According to the UK Institute for Government:

“The agreement has settled on a political resolution, then arbitration process rather than the establishment of a court (and this will form the basis of the dispute resolution process for the future framework).

The proposed role for the European Court of Justice (ECJ) in the withdrawal agreement reflects the ECJ’s position that only the ECJ can bind certain interpretations of EU law and concepts.”

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... -agreement

Has this changed? Is the EU proposing a new role for the ECJ?

Or has the agreed role suddenly become too controversial?


Yes for Northern Ireland only not the remain parts of the UK and only until the Stormont votes to either stay with the status quo of not. Also any future trade deal may or may not override the Northern Ireland protocol and that would have to be actully put into the FTA, but I expect the EU to dig their heels in at that and for the people of Northern Ireland to decide themselves.


Wait, what? Are the EU demanding the extension the jurisdiction of the ECJ beyond what is laid out in the WA? If so, can you point me to a source that explains what the EU want to expand jurisdiction or, above and beyond what is in the WA?


https://www.bbc.com/news/51357589
European Court of Justice
Gaining independence from the rulings of the European Court of Justice (ECJ) was an important part of the argument for Brexit.
Now, the EU is demanding the ECJ be given a legal role in policing any free trade agreement.
It wants the court to be able to issue binding rulings on disputes between the two sides, when they "raise a question of interpretation of [European] Union law".
But the government's written statement says a future agreement cannot include "any jurisdiction for the [ECJ] over the UK's laws".
The ECJ does play a limited role in the withdrawal agreement, both in the special arrangements for Northern Ireland and in resolving any disputes over citizens' rights for the next few years.
But a future trade deal is a different matter.



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -wkk9fcjfz
An internal Brussels diplomatic document, seen by The Times, reveals that the EU will insist that the European Court of Justice be able to enforce the terms of a trade, fishing and security deal.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12291
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:18 am

A101 wrote:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -wkk9fcjfz
An internal Brussels diplomatic document, seen by The Times, reveals that the EU will insist that the European Court of Justice be able to enforce the terms of a trade, fishing and security deal.


makes total sense considering the UK is proven in the past that they can barely be trusted to execute trade deals correctly even when under the jurisdiction of the ECJ. Any less would be suicidal, and the ONLY alternative is the EU commission enforcing those rules without any legal body being involved.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
A101
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:18 am

tommy1808 wrote:

Makes total sense considering the UK is proven in the past that they can barely be trusted to execute trade deals correctly even when under the jurisdiction of the ECJ. Any less would be suicidal, and the ONLY alternative is the EU commission enforcing those rules without any legal body being involved




No, it actually does not. The EU is trying to show that it is above the UK and you do not recognise that the EU-UK are equals within the principle of EU law for equal treatment and the right of access to an independent and impartial tribunal which are the normal standards within a FTA. Hence why that persons or coperations not only have access to national courts but when arbitration between EU member states they have acses to the ECJ. Hence why the CJEU confirmed that the dispute resolution within CETA is compatible with EU law
Last edited by A101 on Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1382
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:23 am

No the Eu and the UK are no equals. The UK can be equal to individual EU members but compared to the whole EU 27 it just pretend to fight way above its weight.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
A101
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:28 am

Olddog wrote:
No the Eu and the UK are no equals. The UK can be equal to individual EU members but compared to the whole EU 27 it just pretend to fight way above its weight.


So when the EU begins negotiations with say China or the US you don’t think you are there equals as well because of there economic capacity is greater than the EU?
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1382
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:36 am

It is pretty easy. The US always consider they have the upper hand, China thinks that time is on its side so is less rough while negotiating.
The UK would like to set a mechanism to go against EU internal laws. The EU will never agree to such a mechanism. If you realize that the ECJ is de facto the EU constitutional and supreme court, it is understandable.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
A101
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:12 am

tommy1808 wrote:

The UK would like to set a mechanism to go against EU internal laws. The EU will never agree to such a mechanism.




Good grief you make out that the UK is the only one setting up the independent Tribunal and Appellate system it’s joint and independent from both judicial systems
 
VSMUT
Posts: 3773
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:21 am

A101 wrote:
No, it actually does not. The EU is trying to show that it is above the UK and you do not recognise that the EU-UK are equals within the principle of EU law for equal treatment and the right of access to an independent and impartial tribunal which are the normal standards within a FTA.


The EU is not trying to show they are above the UK. The EU is just exercising its rights in a negotiation between 2 equals to refuse or impose certain demands. The UK can do the same when ever they please. Difference is, both sides know the UK can't afford not to have a free trade agreement.

Fact is, you left the union because you didn't like it, and now you want to re-enter it. We didn't ask for you to return, so why should we be bending over backwards for you?
 
Arion640
Posts: 2930
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:49 pm

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

The UK would like to set a mechanism to go against EU internal laws. The EU will never agree to such a mechanism.




Good grief you make out that the UK is the only one setting up the independent Tribunal and Appellate system it’s joint and independent from both judicial systems


I dread to think what the European news agencies feed people on the continent. We had it bad enough with the BBC.
1973-2020
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 271
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:48 pm

Arion640 wrote:
A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

The UK would like to set a mechanism to go against EU internal laws. The EU will never agree to such a mechanism.




Good grief you make out that the UK is the only one setting up the independent Tribunal and Appellate system it’s joint and independent from both judicial systems


I dread to think what the European news agencies feed people on the continent. We had it bad enough with the BBC.


The think the BBC has been biased towards the EU? Pull the other one.

Luckily we don't get the absolute BS agenda of the The Sun, Express, Telegraph and the complete incompetence of a large array of BBC 'stars' faling to hold people to account in interviews on the other side of the channel. This has been going on for decades. Watch Irish TV and see how they don't accept blatent lies from the likes of Farage when interviewed. On UK TV the vast majority of the time people get away with murder.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4181
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:26 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I read the article on who owns fishing quotas. It is not unusual for this sort of concentration to take place, especially on natural resources.


:checkmark: Bingo. Fishermen are right to be upset about the quota situation, but this is a world wide phenomenon, not the EU's fault. An acquaintance of mine who's a fisherman in the Norwegian arctic is constantly complaining about how nearly all the quotas are owned by two big families/companies and the regular fisherman gets a raw deal. The same happens in New Zealand and Australia.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
It is also not unusual for populist politicians to claim they are supporting small time miners, farmers and fishers when they are hiding enrichment of the 1%.


That's also very true.

par13del wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
So fishing is .1% and most of that is owned by just a few people. What is the value to the people of the UK? Even to fishers?

It is similar to the passport colour, symbolic and representing the UK being in control of its waters and their resources.


There was never anything stopping the UK from having the Blue Passports. :banghead:

par13del wrote:
On a macro level, the UK is a small pimple on the rump of the EU, little things may not mean much to the EU but to the UK, little things are magnified and of greater importance to the little one looking up. 1% is a number but JRM did use the fishing industry as one of his planks, so expect it to get undue attention.


You actually think that JRM cares about UK fisherman? :lol: He's only trying to get the quotas for himself (or hedge fund).

par13del wrote:
or just let the fish stocks grow.


Probably the best option overall.....hence I'll give it a very low chance of being the eventual outcome. All the waters of Europe, the North Sea etc are all ridiculously overfished (Inspite of the EU Fisheries policy which is a step in the right direction). Sadly there is literally only two countries on the planet that are maintaining their fish stocks sustainably...

LJ wrote:
At the end of the day, the UK government wants to invest money in NHS, farming, customs controls, increased civil service and many other areas. There are limits as to how much the UK government can loan in the market and bills have to be paid.


Honestly, I'd never even thought about the direct cost to the government of opening up dozens of customs border posts. Won't be cheap - though I guess with no FTA with Europe and WTO trade terms, they would all be cashflow positive to the government for all the tariff revenue they'd bring in? Even if they're far more costly to the economy as a whole?

ltbewr wrote:
The only hope is the UK's offshore islands where a lot of it is based (Bermuda, Bahamas, etc), having tax and corporate information evasion but strong pro-business UK law and court systems will keep it afloat.


This is not a good thing.

Arion640 wrote:
It’s come to light in a recent video i watched the EU appoints commissioners who embezzle money. It happened circa 2004 with an ex French government minister. What sort of organisation tolerates this?!


The ex governor of Florida (who's now a senator) was the ceo of a company that perpetuated the largest Medicare fraud in American history.

The president of the United States is responsible for a mass fraud involving his sham "university" and embezzled money from his sham charity.

Dutchy wrote:
Now the rest of the world needs to align itself with UK rules? Interesting.

The brexiteer delusion in a nutshell! :rotfl:
First to fly the 787-9
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12291
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:39 pm

zkojq wrote:
LJ wrote:
At the end of the day, the UK government wants to invest money in NHS, farming, customs controls, increased civil service and many other areas. There are limits as to how much the UK government can loan in the market and bills have to be paid.


Honestly, I'd never even thought about the direct cost to the government of opening up dozens of customs border posts. Won't be cheap - though I guess with no FTA with Europe and WTO trade terms, they would all be cashflow positive to the government for all the tariff revenue they'd bring in? Even if they're far more costly to the economy as a whole?


On top of that the depressed economic growth has already cost more tax revenue than the 150 million or so pund a week in net contributions.

Best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
Arion640
Posts: 2930
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:34 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
A101 wrote:

Good grief you make out that the UK is the only one setting up the independent Tribunal and Appellate system it’s joint and independent from both judicial systems


I dread to think what the European news agencies feed people on the continent. We had it bad enough with the BBC.


The think the BBC has been biased towards the EU? Pull the other one.

Luckily we don't get the absolute BS agenda of the The Sun, Express, Telegraph and the complete incompetence of a large array of BBC 'stars' faling to hold people to account in interviews on the other side of the channel. This has been going on for decades. Watch Irish TV and see how they don't accept blatent lies from the likes of Farage when interviewed. On UK TV the vast majority of the time people get away with murder.


The EU has been embedded in your societies and not resisted enough so you all become complacent.
1973-2020
 
Arion640
Posts: 2930
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:35 pm

zkojq wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I read the article on who owns fishing quotas. It is not unusual for this sort of concentration to take place, especially on natural resources.


:checkmark: Bingo. Fishermen are right to be upset about the quota situation, but this is a world wide phenomenon, not the EU's fault. An acquaintance of mine who's a fisherman in the Norwegian arctic is constantly complaining about how nearly all the quotas are owned by two big families/companies and the regular fisherman gets a raw deal. The same happens in New Zealand and Australia.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
It is also not unusual for populist politicians to claim they are supporting small time miners, farmers and fishers when they are hiding enrichment of the 1%.


That's also very true.

par13del wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
So fishing is .1% and most of that is owned by just a few people. What is the value to the people of the UK? Even to fishers?

It is similar to the passport colour, symbolic and representing the UK being in control of its waters and their resources.


There was never anything stopping the UK from having the Blue Passports. :banghead:

par13del wrote:
On a macro level, the UK is a small pimple on the rump of the EU, little things may not mean much to the EU but to the UK, little things are magnified and of greater importance to the little one looking up. 1% is a number but JRM did use the fishing industry as one of his planks, so expect it to get undue attention.


You actually think that JRM cares about UK fisherman? :lol: He's only trying to get the quotas for himself (or hedge fund).

par13del wrote:
or just let the fish stocks grow.


Probably the best option overall.....hence I'll give it a very low chance of being the eventual outcome. All the waters of Europe, the North Sea etc are all ridiculously overfished (Inspite of the EU Fisheries policy which is a step in the right direction). Sadly there is literally only two countries on the planet that are maintaining their fish stocks sustainably...

LJ wrote:
At the end of the day, the UK government wants to invest money in NHS, farming, customs controls, increased civil service and many other areas. There are limits as to how much the UK government can loan in the market and bills have to be paid.


Honestly, I'd never even thought about the direct cost to the government of opening up dozens of customs border posts. Won't be cheap - though I guess with no FTA with Europe and WTO trade terms, they would all be cashflow positive to the government for all the tariff revenue they'd bring in? Even if they're far more costly to the economy as a whole?

ltbewr wrote:
The only hope is the UK's offshore islands where a lot of it is based (Bermuda, Bahamas, etc), having tax and corporate information evasion but strong pro-business UK law and court systems will keep it afloat.


This is not a good thing.

Arion640 wrote:
It’s come to light in a recent video i watched the EU appoints commissioners who embezzle money. It happened circa 2004 with an ex French government minister. What sort of organisation tolerates this?!


The ex governor of Florida (who's now a senator) was the ceo of a company that perpetuated the largest Medicare fraud in American history.

The president of the United States is responsible for a mass fraud involving his sham "university" and embezzled money from his sham charity.

Dutchy wrote:
Now the rest of the world needs to align itself with UK rules? Interesting.

The brexiteer delusion in a nutshell! :rotfl:


With regards to your point quoting me, it doesn’t make it right.
1973-2020
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4181
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:01 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

One line for the 450 million. One line for the 7 Billion.


Now the rest of the world needs to align itself with UK rules? Interesting.


Yes they will need too when exporting to the UK,no different when exporting to the EU


You should probably read up on The Brussels Effect.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect

Tugger wrote:
As to other places making stuff for 65 million people versus the 450 million of the EU.... why the hell can't the UK utilize those exact same things? Why does something have be made different for the UK? And why do you think the UK won't be able to trade with the EU, just like a large number of other nations in the world?

Seriously, get off the high horse.

Tugg


You should probably read up on The Brussels Effect too.

A101 wrote:
The EU just cant bully a sovereign nation into accepting its standards no matter what the population size. Good Greif


Well thanks to The Brussels Effect they don't need to do any bullying do they? It's just a decision on what's economic by the manufacturer.

sabenapilot wrote:
Careful with the wording!

The newspeak of Britain has changed now: not only has the Government banned the word 'Brexit', it has also decided to refer to 'trade under WTO rules' as 'Australia type trade'.


Hmmm, I wonder why the UK government seems so determined to con the British people?

Cue brexiteers lining up to say that a "Australia Deal is exactly what we voted for". :lol:

Ertro wrote:
Can some brexiteer give an example of some hypothetical new UK standard and in which practical situation it is hoped to be adopted by outsiders so that this causes some benefit to UK.


James O'Brien asked this last week. The best that listeners could come up with was 1) the calculation behind energy standards for washing machines and 2) something to do with badger (or was it bats?) inspections on building sites. :scratchchin:

Olddog wrote:
It was rather funny to see that guernesey fishing waters was solved so fast, when the french told them that in that case, selling theses fishes in France will not be allowed. The fight lasted a whole 24 h.....


But...but....Rule Britannia! :rotfl: :rotfl:

A101 wrote:
Free Enterprise can either still produce for the EU market or say US NZ or even AU markets or both at the same time if it’s cost effective.


Nothing was stopping them doing this before Brexit.. :banghead:

A101 wrote:
Good Greif. How does the smaller nations like AU/NZ set their own standards survive. I had shown an example of differing fuel standards between AU to EU that doesn’t stop Euro countries from exporting vehicles to AU they use different techniques and or different motors for that market than their own because of the difference in fuels standards.


Those same fuel standards are why there are no US cars exported to NZ/AU. :scratchchin:
First to fly the 787-9
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4181
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:15 pm

Arion640 wrote:
You all forget we retain our soft empire, the commonwealth. We are never alone.


This kind of thing is what I find absolutely hilarious about the English psyche: you genuinely believe that everybody loves you unreservedly and then act with that in mind - expecting everybody to give you special treatment. You genuinely believed that India loved being colonised. You genuinely believe that New Zealand didn't mind you screwing us in 1973. You genuinely think that Windrush didn't affect the way that the people of the Caribbean view the UK and it's government. You genuinely think that everybody in Scotland loves Westminster ruling over them. Then you get all surprised when India says that any trade agreement would have to come with big visa concessions for Indian nationals. I hate to break it to you mate, but the empire is over.



As an aside, one thing I like about the French psyche is that we know most of the rest of the world doesn't like us - and we act accordingly. :lol:
First to fly the 787-9
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6190
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:48 pm

zkojq wrote:
I hate to break it to you mate, but the empire is over.


This lecturing from a country that never decolonized and maintains Francafrique to this very day is really beyond belief.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: einsteinboricua, jetmatt777, L410Turbolet, slookabill, Swiss4Ever and 45 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos