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A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:55 am

ElPistolero wrote:

Nope. Its about aligning with the highest standards. In this case, it just so happens that one side does not want to commit to retaining equally high (or higher) standards. The EU’s stance: WTO rules, then.



That’s the EU goal, for the sake of the analogy for demanding regulatory alignment, China wants to reduce its cost of production

ElPistolero wrote:

Then China retains its current level of access to the EU market. The Chinese stance has no bearing on EU current EU exports since they already meet the lower Chinese standards. Simply put, the EU has nothing to lose under status quo.



You are only looking at trade in one direction, China wants to reduce its high cost for exports to the EU, the EU on the other hand would like to turn a deficit into a surplus, to better compete in the market.China may say the cost to do that is regulatory alignment

It a pretty simple analogy and by your fierce reaction to it you too are against ceding regulatory alignment to another country if they do demand

That’s the only thing we are debating on a hypothetical China/EU FTA


ElPistolero wrote:

The UK wants a free trade agreement with the US. Agriculture - particularly meat - is a key stumbling block. The US appears to be making that the price of an FTA - the price of preferential access.

Your comparison only holds if the EU desperately wants a UK-US style FTA with China. We both know that isn’t the case. In the US-UK case it’s different. The UK needs a US trade deal just to strengthen its negotiating position with the EU.

The US is sufficiently less concerned about securing a trade deal in the short term than the UK is. It’s worst case is (what has long been a perfectly acceptable) status quo. That means it doesn’t need an FTA as much as the UK. Certainly not in the short term. Or to put it more directly, it can afford to wait out UK resistance to its demands, and see if the UK will cave.



Its not like it is a must have for the UK. Currently as you know there is no FTA with the US and what trade agreements are in place the US/UK has agreed to a MRA when the EU/US MRA no longer applies to the UK.

I don’t think HMG will set a timeline for negotiations to be finalised as the UK has a trade surplus with the US.

It’s the US who want to get the EU’s market share within the UK. Another subtle reason why the EU is demanding regulatory alignment, for the EU its economic dominance and protect it from more competition


At the end of the day we are never going to agree with each other s the hypothetical China demands of regulatory alignment is all moot as you like to say this will be the last I comment on it as its off topic

ElPistolero wrote:

The only way that argument would work is if the EU risks losing preferential access to 45-50% of its main export market and desperately needs access to China to make up for it. Thing is, they haven’t. Brexit will be significant - but the UK doesn’t account for 45-50% of EU exports. The impact of no deal just isn’t the same. That’s where the relative discrepancy in negotiating power lies. The EU thinks it can absorb a no deal with relatively lower disruption than the UK.



I have no doubt that the EU can absorb no deal if it can ride through the latest bout of financial crises with corona and if its members can agree on new budgets less the UK income.

But I also think the UK will prevail as well on no deal, will it be a smooth ride hell No.

Corona can actually be viewed as a blessing in disguise. The UK has a much needed chance to reform to make itself more competitive on the global market place being tied to the EU was just holding back that reform

Being sovereign gives the UK much more room to manoeuvre to take advantage of the most likely new trading conditions across the globe once everyone has a chance to sit back and take stock on how the corona has impacted world trade.




ElPistolero wrote:

Yes, the economics are bad for both. Remainers have been pointing that out for years. But Brexiteers put political considerations above economic considerations.


Yep sovereignty comes at a price but I think it’s worth it



ElPistolero wrote:

Bit daft - and outright hypocritical - then, to criticize the EU for responding by putting non-economic considerations ahead of economics considerations.


No not really if the EU actually did not respect the wishes of the electorate in it deals with the UK from the beginning it tried everything in its power to either bind the UK to the EU hold a 2nd referenda or revoke anything but an independent UK


ElPistolero wrote:
Brexiteers started this nonsense. The EU has always said everyone would be worse off as a result of it. Bit late to complain about it now.



No one is complaining most of us are rejoicing in the prospect that we will finally be free from the EU with or without a trade deal

ElPistolero wrote:

Uh, no. The EU isn’t demanding regulatory alignment in all scenarios. It is only demanding regulatory alignment IF the UK wants preferential access to the EU single market. If the UK wants to go WTO, the regulatory alignment requirement ceases to exist.

The victim complex is really weird.



Nothing weird in it at all, the UK wants to retain its sovereignty in all aspects of the trade deal but have the best deal it can achieve something that all sovereign nations have.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:44 am

Dutchy wrote:

Ok no FTA yet,,check. Yes, both will suffer but the financial consequences for the UK are much greater. It is a lose - lose.


Most leaver don’t see it as a loss as long as we are out and not aligned with the EU

Dutchy wrote:

Assumption without evidence. Quite the contrary I would say, lots of understanding and restrained for the UK is shown.


What you are not demanding regulatory alignment now?

Dutchy wrote:

The UK citizens were promised full access to the. EU internal market, The EU. is willing to do that but it has a. price. If the UK doesn't want it that fine, another FTA deal is there. Will be less beneficial for the UK, but fine, the UK are independent. UK choice.


Fair dinkum again………please show me who promised that; it certainly wasn’t the Cameron Government who were the authority at the time of the referenda
THE ANDREW MARR SHOW, 12TH JUNE, 2016
“The British public would be voting if we leave would be to leave the EU and leave the single market. We’d then have to negotiate a trade deal from outside with the European Union.”

Dutchy wrote:

So, you are either very well informed and have inside knowledge, or you have a public source for this remarkable statement,


Well it just so happens have an acquaintance I talk with every now and then who works for DFAT. No in-depth conversations about trade talks, but it has come up in conversations on what people think when dealing with the EU.



Dutchy wrote:

Does Australia have a comprehensive trade deal with full access to the internal American market? If not, it is not quite the same. UK's choice. what kind of deal you want. The UK agreed to dozens of them when they were in the EU, so they know them, so choice if Johnson is serious, if not serious then just go on like this


Not sure what you are saying here but yes AUSFTA is billed as a preferential trade agreement between the two countries , the UK is aware there will be some form of trade barrier under a CETA type trade deal with the EU
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:01 am

A101 wrote:
Corona can actually be viewed as a blessing in disguise. The UK has a much needed chance to reform to make itself more competitive on the global market place being tied to the EU was just holding back that reform

Being sovereign gives the UK much more room to manoeuvre to take advantage of the most likely new trading conditions across the globe once everyone has a chance to sit back and take stock on how the corona has impacted world trade.


Good to see that you acknowledge that your China argumentation was indeed mood. Now the above statement fascinates me. You say the EU was holding the UK back. Could you please give me 5 examples of concrete ways the EU was doing this?

It is interesting, because, as you can see from the list below, there are a few EU members on there: Denmark (2), The Netherlands (4), Sweden (6) or have a very great alignment: Switzerland (3) and Norway (7).

Image

Source

The UK is indeed absent from the list of ten most competitive economies, but is it because of the EU? On the surface, there seems to be no causal link between being a member of the EU and not being on the list. But perhaps I am missing something, so that's why the 5 examples.

Could you also give me 5 examples of how you would like to see the UK become more competitive? Let me help you out a bit, I can see:
1. relaxing the rights of workers;
2. relaxing the rules on environment protection;
3. opening up your market far more for foreign products;
4. increasing the level of education;
5. invest massively in innovation.

So what do you see?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:27 am

A101 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Uh, no. The EU isn’t demanding regulatory alignment in all scenarios. It is only demanding regulatory alignment IF the UK wants preferential access to the EU single market. If the UK wants to go WTO, the regulatory alignment requirement ceases to exist.

The victim complex is really weird.



Nothing weird in it at all, the UK wants to retain its sovereignty in all aspects of the trade deal but have the best deal it can achieve something that all sovereign nations have.


As ElPistolero said, go WTO route, fine, do it. No regulatory alignment required. If you want to deal with other nations, some sovereignty will be lost, always. Quite logical, because what would a deal resolve if one can just tare it apart without consequences. A bit the North Korean route, no deals, no foreign access, they can and do anything they like, totally sovereign.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:35 am

Is that exchange not pointless? You 2 never found common ground in the last years,that won´t change now. And it is exactly the same between the EU and the UK. Just get on with the Hard Brexit and be done with it. Nobody believes in a different outcome any more anyway.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:42 am

Dutchy wrote:

Now the above statement fascinates me
You say the EU was holding the UK back. Could you please give me 5 examples of concrete ways the EU was doing this?



What I actually said was that the “UK has a much-needed chance to reform to make itself more competitive on the global market place being tied to the EU was just holding back that reform”

One of the key aspects before the EU referenda was Cameron’s call for EU reform and his quest for the UK additional opt outs from the EU. Angela Merkel had backed Britain’s calls for change she agreed that there was a need to reform and that the EU needs to improve its competitiveness but was not 100% supportive of all Cameron’s demands. In 2018 Macron also urged a major reform drive to reinvigorate the EU.

(1) EU's founding ambition to forge an "ever closer union"
(2) Migrants and welfare benefits
(3) recognition that the euro is not the only currency of the European Union
(4) non-eurozone members not have to contribute to eurozone bailouts.
(5) Competitiveness reduction of excessive regulation i.e. the lowering administrative burdens.

I’m not sure where you got that graph from or what year but it does say the Strait times, although the source link goes to a Reuters article about “Germany set to pay 42% more into EU budget in coming years”

But from the Straight Times;

Global Competitiveness 2018
https://www.straitstimes.com/business/e ... nkings-wef

Global Competitiveness 2019
https://www.straitstimes.com/business/e ... omic-forum

And the actual report titled;

Global Competitiveness Report 2019: How to end a lost decade of productivity growth

https://www.weforum.org/reports/how-to- ... ity-growth
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:47 am

The only position that counts is the EU parliament position:

#Brexit – EU-UK talks: MEPs display unwavering support for the EU position


And it can't be more clear:

They regret that no real progress has been achieved in the talks after four negotiating rounds, and that differences remain substantial.

MEPs emphasize that a comprehensive agreement is in the interest of both parties. However, having the UK side cherry-pick certain policies and push for access to the single market after Brexit is “unacceptable” for the EU, says the text, expressing deep concern over the British government’s insistence on only wanting to negotiate areas that are in the interests of the UK.

The report also reiterates Parliament’s full and unwavering support for the EU’s Chief Negotiator Michel Barnier in his talks with the British negotiators, based on the political mandate given to him by EU member states and Parliament.


You can also lin some wacko with an other idea but the circumstances that allowed British nationalists, disaster capitalists and russian propaganda to push the UK out of the EU are nowhere to be found in the EU. And more so after having seen the tremendous negotiating skills displayed by the UK team.
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A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:05 am

Olddog wrote:
The only position that counts is the EU parliament position:

#Brexit – EU-UK talks: MEPs display unwavering support for the EU position


And it can't be more clear:

They regret that no real progress has been achieved in the talks after four negotiating rounds, and that differences remain substantial.

MEPs emphasize that a comprehensive agreement is in the interest of both parties. However, having the UK side cherry-pick certain policies and push for access to the single market after Brexit is “unacceptable” for the EU, says the text, expressing deep concern over the British government’s insistence on only wanting to negotiate areas that are in the interests of the UK.

The report also reiterates Parliament’s full and unwavering support for the EU’s Chief Negotiator Michel Barnier in his talks with the British negotiators, based on the political mandate given to him by EU member states and Parliament.


You can also lin some wacko with an other idea but the circumstances that allowed British nationalists, disaster capitalists and russian propaganda to push the UK out of the EU are nowhere to be found in the EU. And more so after having seen the tremendous negotiating skills displayed by the UK team.



It would be easier if they just voted for a resolution to stop negotiating then ask the UK to drop its negotiation position.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:14 am

Dutchy wrote:


Sorry, the correct link is: source

Can't change the original post anymore.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:19 am

A101 wrote:
It would be easier if they just voted for a resolution to stop negotiating then ask the UK to drop its negotiation position.


Why ? They play by the same rules book than the UK: We absolutely want to negotiate but it is the other side that is unreasonable ....
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:21 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Now the above statement fascinates me
You say the EU was holding the UK back. Could you please give me 5 examples of concrete ways the EU was doing this?



What I actually said was that the “UK has a much-needed chance to reform to make itself more competitive on the global market place being tied to the EU was just holding back [u][b][i]that reform”[/b][/i][/u]


Ok, you haven't addressed the very simple and obvious question: what do you refer by with "that" and how exactly is the EU holding the UK back (especially since a number of most competitive economics are in the EU or have close ties to it). And since the UK has shed its bonds, what will change, they are now free to do whatever they like, so you can't blame the EU anymore.

If you could be as explicit as possible without referring to broad concepts, it would be much appreciated.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:31 am

Olddog wrote:
Why ? They play by the same rules book than the UK: We absolutely want to negotiate but it is the other side that is unreasonable ....


Indeed, and the EU has the benefit to be objectively right and reasonable in this case. The Brexiteers want to blame the EU for not giving in to their demands: full access, but not playing by the rules - doctrine.
So walking away isn't an option, then the Brexiteers will say: you see, the EU is unreasonable.

So the only option is to keep talking and keep repeating the point of view of the EU. A stand which they have had since day one and a stand which the UK agreed with till now, now they are on the other side.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Corona can actually be viewed as a blessing in disguise. The UK has a much needed chance to reform to make itself more competitive on the global market place being tied to the EU was just holding back that reform

Being sovereign gives the UK much more room to manoeuvre to take advantage of the most likely new trading conditions across the globe once everyone has a chance to sit back and take stock on how the corona has impacted world trade.


Good to see that you acknowledge that your China argumentation was indeed mood. Now the above statement fascinates me. You say the EU was holding the UK back. Could you please give me 5 examples of concrete ways the EU was doing this?

It is interesting, because, as you can see from the list below, there are a few EU members on there: Denmark (2), The Netherlands (4), Sweden (6) or have a very great alignment: Switzerland (3) and Norway (7).

Image

Source

The UK is indeed absent from the list of ten most competitive economies, but is it because of the EU? On the surface, there seems to be no causal link between being a member of the EU and not being on the list. But perhaps I am missing something, so that's why the 5 examples.

Could you also give me 5 examples of how you would like to see the UK become more competitive? Let me help you out a bit, I can see:
1. relaxing the rights of workers;
2. relaxing the rules on environment protection;
3. opening up your market far more for foreign products;
4. increasing the level of education;
5. invest massively in innovation.

So what do you see?



What is interested is that the list is full of scandinavian countries with many regulations, high taxes, high export to Asia etc ..

A swedish worker produce in 4 days what a uk worker do in 5...
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:39 pm

A101 wrote:
That’s the EU goal, for the sake of the analogy for demanding regulatory alignment, China wants to reduce its cost of production


The EU can issue waivers for Chinese imports and achieve that. Unless you’re arguing that China wants to reduce the EU’s cost of production. Which doesn’t make much sense.

For what it’s worth, you’re contorting your argument too much “for the sake of” an analogy that was evidently not fully thought through.

A101 wrote:
You are only looking at trade in one direction, China wants to reduce its high cost for exports to the EU, the EU on the other hand would like to turn a deficit into a surplus, to better compete in the market.China may say the cost to do that is regulatory alignment


Already addressed:

ElPistolero wrote:
Now if the EU is desperate for an FTA with China, it can theoretically issue waivers for China-origin goods, which is not the same thing as dropping it’s own standards. It doesn’t need to, and it’s exports will still meet Chinese standards by virtue of exceeding them.

Simply put, the EU does not risk undercutting China. Consequently, as long as it meets Chinese standards, why would China care if the EU holds itself to higher standards (and puts itself at a disadvantage through higher costs)?


Is it too complex to follow? Should I dumb it down to simpler language?

A101 wrote:
It a pretty simple analogy and by your fierce reaction to it you too are against ceding regulatory alignment to another country if they do demand


Fierce? Anyway, no, I think that if the EU want to export to markets with higher standards, they absolutely should be expected to achieve those higher standards - or lose access. And that applies to everyone, not just the EU.

A101 wrote:
That’s the only thing we are debating on a hypothetical China/EU FTA


Whatever you think you’re debating is based on false premises stemming from your apparent misunderstanding of regulatory standards.

Like your claim that the regulatory alignment would not allow the UK to adopt higher standards. Thats a (perhaps deliberate) falsehood. Your own Prime Minister insists that the UK already exceeds EU regulatory standards in some areas. And that’s under the fully enforecable EU rule book.
A101 wrote:
Its not like it is a must have for the UK. Currently as you know there is no FTA with the US and what trade agreements are in place the US/UK has agreed to a MRA when the EU/US MRA no longer applies to the UK.


Perhaps not. Just going to note that Brexiteers keep bringing it up and writing long articles about its importance on the Telegraph and ConHome etc multiple times a week.

Quite obvious you don’t see anything similar about a deal with the UK, in the US.

A101 wrote:
I don’t think HMG will set a timeline for negotiations to be finalised as the UK has a trade surplus with the US.


Hmm?

“U.S. goods and services trade with United Kingdom totaled an estimated $261.9 billion in 2018. Exports were $140.4 billion; imports were $121.5 billion. The U.S. goods and services trade surplus with United Kingdom was $18.9 billion in 2018.”

https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/euro ... ed-kingdom

The goods numbers for 2019 are roughly the same; the US had a $5.8 billion surplus in 2019 compared to $5.7 billion in 2018.

https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/ba ... .html#2019

A101 wrote:
It’s the US who want to get the EU’s market share within the UK. Another subtle reason why the EU is demanding regulatory alignment, for the EU its economic dominance and protect it from more competition


Seems the at least half of the US hasn’t clued in. If this was so important to the US, it wouldn’t have turned into a partisan issue. But it has:

“Senator Chris Murphy, also a Democrat, said the two countries should ultimately reach a free trade agreement, but said Washington should not reward Britain for leaving the EU and should focus first on reaching a trade deal with Brussels.”

Of note, the Democrats are also making noises not dissimilar to the EU:

“A future U.S.-UK trade agreement must incorporate strong provisions on worker rights, environmental protection, and enforcement to ensure bipartisan support, U.S. House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Richard Neal (a Democrat) said on Friday, staking out a claim for Congress to help shape any such accord.”

https://reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1ZU2UN

A101 wrote:
At the end of the day we are never going to agree with each other s the hypothetical China demands of regulatory alignment is all moot as you like to say this will be the last I comment on it as its off topic


We are completely agreed that it does not serve whatever purpose you wanted to use it to serve.

A101 wrote:
I have no doubt that the EU can absorb no deal if it can ride through the latest bout of financial crises with corona and if its members can agree on new budgets less the UK income.

But I also think the UK will prevail as well on no deal, will it be a smooth ride hell No.


Indeed. The point you seem to have missed there is that the impact of no deal on the EU will be relatively lower than that on the UK.

The word “prevail” is meaningless here. Every country “prevails” over time. Post-WWII Germany and Japan come to mind.

A101 wrote:
Corona can actually be viewed as a blessing in disguise. The UK has a much needed chance to reform to make itself more competitive on the global market place being tied to the EU was just holding back that reform


It’s a double edged sword - move too quickly or radically and you’ll get locked out of economies that are trying to rebuild their domestic industries, with an inevitable emphasis on standards.

A lot of that reform would have been easier to sell to trade partners pre-corona when their domestic industries weren’t in dire straits.

A101 wrote:
Being sovereign gives the UK much more room to manoeuvre to take advantage of the most likely new trading conditions across the globe once everyone has a chance to sit back and take stock on how the corona has impacted world trade.


It’s true. COVID gives everyone an opportunity to do that. Literally everyone is equally well placed.

A101 wrote:
Yep sovereignty comes at a price but I think it’s worth it


Great. Then why complain about everything the EU does?

A101 wrote:
No not really if the EU actually did not respect the wishes of the electorate in it deals with the UK from the beginning it tried everything in its power to either bind the UK to the EU hold a 2nd referenda or revoke anything but an independent UK


The EU deals with the elected UK government. It is not negotiating with the UK electorate. There is no “respect” or “disrespect” electorate issue here. In any case, the electorate isn’t a monolith - approximately 48% don’t feel disrespected by the EU.

A101 wrote:
No one is complaining most of us are rejoicing in the prospect that we will finally be free from the EU with or without a trade deal


And yet you’re here constantly complaining about how the EU is wrong to demand this or that in exchange for a deal. Even you’ve got to admit that’s a little strange.

Go rejoice instead.

A101 wrote:
Nothing weird in it at all, the UK wants to retain its sovereignty in all aspects of the trade deal but have the best deal it can achieve something that all sovereign nations have.
[/quote]

In other words, it’s doing everything it can to maintain the very same benefits Brexiteers claim do not matter.

Which then manifests itself as Brexiteer frustration with the EU for taking them at their word.

Yeah, I think the word “weird” sums it up.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:58 pm

olle wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Corona can actually be viewed as a blessing in disguise. The UK has a much needed chance to reform to make itself more competitive on the global market place being tied to the EU was just holding back that reform

Being sovereign gives the UK much more room to manoeuvre to take advantage of the most likely new trading conditions across the globe once everyone has a chance to sit back and take stock on how the corona has impacted world trade.


Good to see that you acknowledge that your China argumentation was indeed mood. Now the above statement fascinates me. You say the EU was holding the UK back. Could you please give me 5 examples of concrete ways the EU was doing this?

It is interesting, because, as you can see from the list below, there are a few EU members on there: Denmark (2), The Netherlands (4), Sweden (6) or have a very great alignment: Switzerland (3) and Norway (7).

Image

Source

The UK is indeed absent from the list of ten most competitive economies, but is it because of the EU? On the surface, there seems to be no causal link between being a member of the EU and not being on the list. But perhaps I am missing something, so that's why the 5 examples.

Could you also give me 5 examples of how you would like to see the UK become more competitive? Let me help you out a bit, I can see:
1. relaxing the rights of workers;
2. relaxing the rules on environment protection;
3. opening up your market far more for foreign products;
4. increasing the level of education;
5. invest massively in innovation.

So what do you see?



What is interested is that the list is full of scandinavian countries with many regulations, high taxes, high export to Asia etc ..

A swedish worker produce in 4 days what a uk worker do in 5...


Yup. The Scandinavian model actually works there, a high standard of living combined with a highly competitive economy with a highly productive workforce. All in alignment with the EU. So I guess the EU is not a factor in this and the EU wasn't holding the UK back. It must be an internal UK matter which they could have solved within the EU.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:04 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Yep sovereignty comes at a price but I think it’s worth it


Great. Then why complain about everything the EU does?


I think it is quite elitist to say that something is worth it. Generally, you see this kind of argumentation used by people who can afford to get hit economically. It is quite another matter if you live at the edges of society and can't take a financial hit. Unfortunately, those people will be hit the hardest, as with all economic downturns. They have been lied to by the Brexiteers, with the red bus, with the promised unicorns, they were tricked in voting for Brexit, without truly knowing the consequences. The tragedy of Brexit.

We can all debate all day long, but in the end, they will be paying the price for Brexit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:37 pm

Dutchy wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
Yep sovereignty comes at a price but I think it’s worth it


Great. Then why complain about everything the EU does?


I think it is quite elitist to say that something is worth it. Generally, you see this kind of argumentation used by people who can afford to get hit economically. It is quite another matter if you live at the edges of society and can't take a financial hit. Unfortunately, those people will be hit the hardest, as with all economic downturns. They have been lied to by the Brexiteers, with the red bus, with the promised unicorns, they were tricked in voting for Brexit, without truly knowing the consequences. The tragedy of Brexit.

We can all debate all day long, but in the end, they will be paying the price for Brexit.


I think that this is the center of the whole argument here...

For me as a Swede, I simple do not understand what the Brexit argument has to do with workers, singapore on the thames etc.

if the UK workers want it to get better why not a copenhagen on the thames?

You can combine services, production etc in a high cost environment where workers can have a life. You can export to China and Asia as well as Sweden and Germany shows.

Everything is about productivity and a failed UK management environment. UK need to adress why a UK worker is 20% less efficient then a Swedish one. I actually work with truck manufacturing and many people at the plant if not a majority is migrants, so it is not just a worker thing.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:12 pm

olle wrote:

I think that this is the center of the whole argument here...

For me as a Swede, I simple do not understand what the Brexit argument has to do with workers, singapore on the thames etc.

if the UK workers want it to get better why not a copenhagen on the thames?


Don't worry, most of us don't get it either. Maybe because they see the UK economy as mainly service based (which it is, but only when it suits them for this arguement), Dyson is in Singapore so it must be great to be like them. Of course as soon as they talk about a deal with the EU all of a sudden services aren't important or are ignored alltogether, and they go back to talking about Fish and Farming.

There is a clear lack of undestanding from Govenment and the public about why Singapore is what it is, and why it works (or does not for some of it's population. No Brexiteer or current govenment minister would promote being like any nordic country..cos high taxes and socialism (actually a lot will call it Communism because that's what the right wing papers and social media call it, just like in the US).

olle wrote:
You can combine services, production etc in a high cost environment where workers can have a life. You can export to China and Asia as well as Sweden and Germany shows.


Yes but that requires higher taxes and heaven forbid any rise in tax. The UK is more like the US in this regard, voters will rather have less tax and moan about the quality of public services than slightly more on the top 1-2% and have much better services.

olle wrote:
Everything is about productivity and a failed UK management environment. UK need to adress why a UK worker is 20% less efficient then a Swedish one. I actually work with truck manufacturing and many people at the plant if not a majority is migrants, so it is not just a worker thing.


Yes indeed. There is a massive productivity problem with UK workers. The problem is, the second you say that you get hit with barrages of about how you're always putting Brits down and it's unfair and not true. Yet every study and statistic proves it. I've noticed the difference between working in the UK and Germany, produtivity here is higher but not for all types of work. For other more complex work, the way Germans think about things, the paperwork and bureaucracy is on another level. People here also can't think on their feet very well and have to follow a rule, even if the rule is stupid or should be changed. But for working whilst at work for most jobs the difference is noticeable.

Britain had everything it needed to suceed in the world, indeed it was doing exactly that despite what the Brexiteers thought.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:16 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
olle wrote:

I think that this is the center of the whole argument here...

For me as a Swede, I simple do not understand what the Brexit argument has to do with workers, singapore on the thames etc.

if the UK workers want it to get better why not a copenhagen on the thames?


Don't worry, most of us don't get it either. Maybe because they see the UK economy as mainly service based (which it is, but only when it suits them for this arguement), Dyson is in Singapore so it must be great to be like them. Of course as soon as they talk about a deal with the EU all of a sudden services aren't important or are ignored alltogether, and they go back to talking about Fish and Farming.

There is a clear lack of undestanding from Govenment and the public about why Singapore is what it is, and why it works (or does not for some of it's population. No Brexiteer or current govenment minister would promote being like any nordic country..cos high taxes and socialism (actually a lot will call it Communism because that's what the right wing papers and social media call it, just like in the US).

olle wrote:
You can combine services, production etc in a high cost environment where workers can have a life. You can export to China and Asia as well as Sweden and Germany shows.


Yes but that requires higher taxes and heaven forbid any rise in tax. The UK is more like the US in this regard, voters will rather have less tax and moan about the quality of public services than slightly more on the top 1-2% and have much better services.

olle wrote:
Everything is about productivity and a failed UK management environment. UK need to adress why a UK worker is 20% less efficient then a Swedish one. I actually work with truck manufacturing and many people at the plant if not a majority is migrants, so it is not just a worker thing.


Yes indeed. There is a massive productivity problem with UK workers. The problem is, the second you say that you get hit with barrages of about how you're always putting Brits down and it's unfair and not true. Yet every study and statistic proves it. I've noticed the difference between working in the UK and Germany, produtivity here is higher but not for all types of work. For other more complex work, the way Germans think about things, the paperwork and bureaucracy is on another level. People here also can't think on their feet very well and have to follow a rule, even if the rule is stupid or should be changed. But for working whilst at work for most jobs the difference is noticeable.

Britain had everything it needed to suceed in the world, indeed it was doing exactly that despite what the Brexiteers thought.


I think Scandinavia has a unique combination between admin efficiency and make it simple tradition compared to Germany, combined with a more efficient production approach. There is a reason why most Scandinavian countries is within the top 10 shown above in competitiveness well before UK or Germany.

Scandinavia and special Sweden has been promoted as some kind of socialist area but what people often miss is how extreme capitalist and delegated they are in the same time. In Sweden for example the government in its response to corona need to convince the regions what they shall do for example in contrast to UK or France that seem to be extremely centric around London and Paris.

The Swedish response to Corona for example confuse the right wing in many countries. On one had Sweden is supposed to only be socialistic but the response has been closer to Brazil, USA or was preferred in UK in the start.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:17 am

I watch the youtube channel A different bias (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCj1_pZ ... 5clIcMVJtg) someone linked in this thread years ago, religiously, the guy is a labour supporter and arch remainer, however he's a keen amateur observer of politics and most of his analyses are hard to argue even if you're on the complete opposite side of politics. He has no inside knowledge, just reading newspapers (including right wing ones) and from what he's reading there are indeed secret talks for trade deals, in particular with the US. The talks turn around the lines of accepting everything the US is asking for and getting nothing in return, except for the "victory" of having a "free trade deal" with the US.

The problem is that there is no way this will be ratified by the US Congress this year, so it's a bit pointless.

That deal is also incompatible with a free trade deal with the EU.

PS : I also watch a Brexiter channel, much less convincing though : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCE3181 ... uTybf6HgNw
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:30 am

Aesma wrote:
I watch the youtube channel A different bias (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCj1_pZ ... 5clIcMVJtg) someone linked in this thread years ago, religiously, the guy is a labour supporter and arch remainer, however he's a keen amateur observer of politics and most of his analyses are hard to argue even if you're on the complete opposite side of politics. He has no inside knowledge, just reading newspapers (including right wing ones) and from what he's reading there are indeed secret talks for trade deals, in particular with the US. The talks turn around the lines of accepting everything the US is asking for and getting nothing in return, except for the "victory" of having a "free trade deal" with the US.

The problem is that there is no way this will be ratified by the US Congress this year, so it's a bit pointless.

That deal is also incompatible with a free trade deal with the EU.

PS : I also watch a Brexiter channel, much less convincing though : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCE3181 ... uTybf6HgNw


Ah yes, Phil, he is biased as hell, but he gives honest information and gives his own comment on this. Great source of info.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:45 pm

Liz Truss - the International Trade Secretary had quite a few interesting things to say yesterday:

“ Speaking to MPs on the International Trade Committee, Mrs Truss said: “The US talks a good game about free trade and low tariffs but the reality is that many UK products have been kept unfairly out of their markets. We're not going to rush into a deal and there is no deadline.”

...

“Mrs Truss added that the UK would not be “bounced into a quick deal” with Japan, after Tokyo’s chief negotiator Hiroshi Matsuura, gave Britain only six weeks to strike an arrangement – a blow to the Government, which had hoped to secure deep trade liberalisation with the country.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... op-tariff/

Apparently that was in response to Japan’s refusal to roll over its FTA with the EU, and demanding that a bespoke deal:

“Tokyo’s chief negotiator, Hiroshi Matsuura, warned that both sides will need to “limit their ambitions” as there is little time for talks on contentious areas such as tariffs and quotas. This could mean that key sectors such as agriculture may suffer.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... eal-japan/

The Daily Mail added some additional detail that was amusing:

“Giving evidence to MPs on the Commons international trade committee yesterday, (Truss) also struck a notably tougher stance, saying she would rather walk away than agree a ‘bad deal’ for the sake of it.

‘Throughout the negotiations this Government will be fighting for Britain’s best interests,’ she said.

‘To coin a once familiar phrase, no deal is better than a bad deal.”

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... n-law.html

Seems the US and Japan are behaving so similarly to the “protectionist” EU, that Brexiteers are back to scurrying for the “no deal is better than a bad deal” mantra.

Whether this comes as a surprise to one, depends on where one sits on the Remain - Leave spectrum.

It does, however, blow planet-sized holes in the narratives some pro-Brexit folk were pushing around here.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:52 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Liz Truss - the International Trade Secretary had quite a few interesting things to say yesterday:

“ Speaking to MPs on the International Trade Committee, Mrs Truss said: “The US talks a good game about free trade and low tariffs but the reality is that many UK products have been kept unfairly out of their markets. We're not going to rush into a deal and there is no deadline.”

...

“Mrs Truss added that the UK would not be “bounced into a quick deal” with Japan, after Tokyo’s chief negotiator Hiroshi Matsuura, gave Britain only six weeks to strike an arrangement – a blow to the Government, which had hoped to secure deep trade liberalisation with the country.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... op-tariff/

Apparently that was in response to Japan’s refusal to roll over its FTA with the EU, and demanding that a bespoke deal:

“Tokyo’s chief negotiator, Hiroshi Matsuura, warned that both sides will need to “limit their ambitions” as there is little time for talks on contentious areas such as tariffs and quotas. This could mean that key sectors such as agriculture may suffer.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... eal-japan/

The Daily Mail added some additional detail that was amusing:

“Giving evidence to MPs on the Commons international trade committee yesterday, (Truss) also struck a notably tougher stance, saying she would rather walk away than agree a ‘bad deal’ for the sake of it.

‘Throughout the negotiations this Government will be fighting for Britain’s best interests,’ she said.

‘To coin a once familiar phrase, no deal is better than a bad deal.”

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... n-law.html

Seems the US and Japan are behaving so similarly to the “protectionist” EU, that Brexiteers are back to scurrying for the “no deal is better than a bad deal” mantra.

Whether this comes as a surprise to one, depends on where one sits on the Remain - Leave spectrum.

It does, however, blow planet-sized holes in the narratives some pro-Brexit folk were pushing around here.


I must say that divorce agreement came very close to what "project fear" presented a few years back..

FTA negotiations and still there is no real new FTA negotiations it is supposed to be copies of EU FTAs with different markets seems be a surprise as well by not follow the Brexit script.

The only new FTA agreement I see that EU has not signed so far that UK is trying is USA that EU gave upon in the moment mr Trump moved into the White house. In this negotiation is seems to be mr Trump presenting a document to UK and UK is supposed to sign.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:22 pm

olle wrote:
And still there is no real new FTA negotiations - it is now supposed to be copies of EU FTAs with different markets.


This approach is a must, because the UK can not just piggy back on the EU's FTA without EU's approval as from next year, so things need to go fast, hence the plan now to simply roll FTAs over.

Not surpringly however, most countries the EU has a FTA with are not interested in doing just that for the long term, because they have often given more to the UK than they'd be willing to give to an economy the size of the UK alone, so they want to break the FTA open and make it harder for the UK to deal with them.
Knowing they have also time firmly on their side and can restrict the roll-over period to put further pressure on the UK, it's going to be fun to watch all those British FTA come in, as well as the list of lost privileges with each one of them... :p

Turning yourself from the senior partner into the junior one, while having put yourself under tremendous time pressure is not a good negotiating strategy, as will be demonstrated over the coming months.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:20 am

After fishing the EU now has car parts on its horizon. The EU doesn't seem to want the UK to benefit from FTAs with other countries in order to source car parts cheaper than those made in the EU (and in FTAs the EU has with third countries) in case the UK can export cars to the EU without any tariffs. Or better, it doesn't want the UK to use FTAs with other third countries to get a competitive advantage whilst benefiting of a zero-tariff on the export of the final product to the EU.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/eu-plans-secure-uk-market-142407763.html

It's becoming really apparent that the EU doesn't trust the UK at all and is trying to preempt each possible loophole which the UK could use to gain a competitive advantage.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:30 am

LJ wrote:
It's becoming really apparent that the EU doesn't trust the UK at all and is trying to preempt each possible loophole which the UK could use to gain a competitive advantage.


Do you think the UK is seen as an reliable country for the EU ?
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sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:46 am

Makes sense, doesn't it?

The UK is seeking tariff free access to the EU, while at the same time being allowed to undercut the EU on all its standards and sign FTAs with other countries to get the tools to do so…

The fantastic business plan for Brexit seems to have been all about turning the country into a conveniently nearby, low cost, no regulations manufacturing basis for unhindered export to the EU market, but obviously that's not going to fly… Ridiculous some Brits actually thought they could ever achieve that! It's almost an insult to the intellect of the EC.

The UK can turn itself into whatever it wants and sign whatever deals it wants with other countries to source half-finished and near-finished products for assembly and onward export, but when the EU doesn't like what it sees in the UK, it will not allow the UK to sell any of it tariff free to its single neighbour the EU; if the UK wants to continue selling to the EU on a non-crippling tariff basis, it will have to behave and step inline with the demands of the buyer: this is the much tooted sovereignty of having free choice. ;)

The alternative is that the UK can always focus on the rest of the world and source half-finished and near-finished products from somewhere in say Asia and export them back to all those fabulously booming and all-new export markets Brexiteers always dreamt about… euh…so in Asia… :sarcastic:
makes perfect sense for a brexiteer apparently to be willing to import something from say Vietnam and South Korea on the back of 2 British FTA which then have to be far better than those the EU has with those countries, assemble it in the UK at a ridiculously low cost to justify the global transport and then reship it back to say Singapore on yet another one of those much better British FTAs with the city state than the EU's FTA with it...
Will be a shocker of a business plan I'm sure!
ROTFL
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:49 am

COVID19 means companies are rethinking their supply chains. That includes car manufacturers. So if anything cars sold in the EU will have parts made closer in the future, not further. Also helped by a carbon tax at the EU borders.

The UK should really rethink its plan and do what it takes to be inside this border (inside the single market). I think BoJo can do it. MPs just voted on a motion congratulating the government for dealing with the crisis in the best way, protecting the NHS and saving lives. So basically, like Trump, BoJo can do anything and get cheered for it.

Just sign a Norway deal with the EU, call it the greatest thing since sliced bread, pay off some tabloids so they don't point out it's not what was promised, and you're good to go.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:20 am

Leave means leave. Better no deal than bad deal - okay?
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:18 pm

Angela Merkel just gave a press interview to the European press on the evening of Germany taking over the rotating presidency of the EU and set out her ambitions for the presidency: contrary to what the UK has hoped for, she made clear that her top priority is the EU's Pandemic Response Plan, underpinned by a recovery fund of €500BN which will issue a combination of both loans and grants to the EU member states, based on a new formula of intra-European solidarity.

On the topic of Brexit, it seems she's decided not to invest any further effort in the UK; she made clear that Britain will have to live with the consequences of its choices and simply accept weaker ties with the EU then, quashing long standing speculation in the British press that Merkel would seek to soften Brussel’s red lines to secure a last-minute deal.

It's just not going to happen, that much is clear now: Berlin stands right behind Brussels, so if Britain doesn't bow, it's going to go with no deal whatsoever: the integrity of the EU will always come first for her, no matter what it can come to cost Germany.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -eu-brexit
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:37 pm

A very interesting interview by the way...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... ew-in-full

Germany has today has a influence in many part of europe it has not had since before ww 1.

I am working hard on improving my rusty german...
 
olle
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:00 pm

This feels like Ms Merkel waving UK and Boris goodbye...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:34 am

sabenapilot wrote:
On the topic of Brexit, it seems she's decided not to invest any further effort in the UK; she made clear that Britain will have to live with the consequences of its choices and simply accept weaker ties with the EU then, quashing long standing speculation in the British press that Merkel would seek to soften Brussel’s red lines to secure a last-minute deal.


Sad but true. The current British government demands its unicorns, Britain will be left with no-deal. It is their choice and they have to live with the consequences. You cannot blame the EU for protecting EU integrity.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:29 pm

Another fiasco in the making? After awarding a ferry company a contract which didn't operate ferries, it's now the stake it bought in OneWeb (GBP 500mn) which looks like throwing away money. The goal is to replace Galileo, which is the EU project to replace GPS. However, the UK need to mitigate the risk of losing access to Galileo and thus decided to invest in OneWeb (UK company). Space specialists are not convinced that the UK did a good investment as they argue that OneWeb does not have the capabilities needed.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jun/26/satellite-experts-oneweb-investment-uk-galileo-brexit
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/26/uk-invest-satellite-rival-eu-galileo-system-oneweb

In addition, the company OneWeb filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in the US.......

https://spacenews.com/oneweb-files-for-chapter-11-bankruptcy/
https://www.oneweb.world/media-center/oneweb-files-for-chapter-11-restructuring-to-execute-sale-process

To be honest, I admire OneWebs salesteam as they managed to get a GBP 500mn contract despite having part of the company in Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:12 pm

Support for Brexit is collapsing as poll finds big majority of British people want to be in the EU

* A newly released survey found just 35% of British people supporting Brexit, with 57% wanting to rejoin the European Union.
* The nearly 60% of people who told the European Social Survey that they wanted Britain to be in the EU was far greater than the 48% who backed Remain in 2016.


Link

Well, the Britts are out. So if they want to rejoin, they only need to apply. Don't think it will happen any time soon. Then there needs to be an election, the current government is dead set on a hard Brexit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:36 pm

Brexit: Boris Johnson's father 'applies for French passport'

.........A source close to the family told The Sunday Times that Mr Johnson Sr has applied so that his grandchildren can live and work in the EU after Brexit.


Link

So ironically, Boris Johnson might apply for a French passport himself if all goes wrong.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Brexit: Boris Johnson's father 'applies for French passport'

.........A source close to the family told The Sunday Times that Mr Johnson Sr has applied so that his grandchildren can live and work in the EU after Brexit.


Link

So ironically, Boris Johnson might apply for a French passport himself if all goes wrong.


Lol.

As another poster has pointed out, most Brexiteers have no intention of ever leaving England. Probably don’t have any intention of leaving their small towns even. And obviously, the majority is always correct. Especially in England. As it was on issues such as [insert outdated belief “of its times”].

Anyway, didn’t one of the Brexiteers here move to Australia after voting for Brexit, or did I misinterpret something.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:46 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Brexit: Boris Johnson's father 'applies for French passport'

.........A source close to the family told The Sunday Times that Mr Johnson Sr has applied so that his grandchildren can live and work in the EU after Brexit.


Link

So ironically, Boris Johnson might apply for a French passport himself if all goes wrong.


Lol.

As another poster has pointed out, most Brexiteers have no intention of ever leaving England. Probably don’t have any intention of leaving their small towns even. And obviously, the majority is always correct. Especially in England. As it was on issues such as [insert outdated belief “of its times”].


Well, a number of high profile Brexiteers seem to make sure they have options for themselves and their families. Johnson joins them now, to be fair, not by his own hand, but still.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:59 am

It's the Brexiters slogan: FOM only for me !
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Bostrom
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:54 pm

I found an interesting twitter thread that gave an interesting insight into the mind of three brexitvoters. They seem to think that the point of Brexit was to stop people going to the UK, not to stop them going to France.

In short: Brits vote for Brexit. Brits find out that Brexit will affect them personally. Brits then get upset with the EU.

https://twitter.com/archer_rs/status/12 ... 0885386240
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:58 pm

Hilarious!

a conclusion I have personally witnessed too in a discussion with 2 Brits is his one:

What is remarkable is how many British people do not understand that the removal of 'Freedom of Movement' applies to them as well; they really do think it only applies to non-Brits in the UK.


One of the 2 I talk about was surprised that as from January next year, he can no longer move to another EU country for work and called it unfair because this would hinder his carreer prospects within the multinational he works for, which was the reason he took on a job offer on the continent with them in the first place!
Now he learns he's basically locked in his host country (and thus the current professional level with them) forever unless he quits and returns home to Britain.
He was very much pro-Brexit until recently, but he now says he's no longer so sure of it, given "things aren't exactly going as they were supposed to".
(supposed by whom, I wonder?)
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:13 pm

Bostrom wrote:
I found an interesting twitter thread that gave an interesting insight into the mind of three brexitvoters. They seem to think that the point of Brexit was to stop people going to the UK, not to stop them going to France.

In short: Brits vote for Brexit. Brits find out that Brexit will affect them personally. Brits then get upset with the EU.

https://twitter.com/archer_rs/status/12 ... 0885386240


Well, cherry-picking: Brits should be allowed to do what the Brexiteers want to deny others.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:53 pm

Bostrom wrote:
I found an interesting twitter thread that gave an interesting insight into the mind of three brexitvoters. They seem to think that the point of Brexit was to stop people going to the UK, not to stop them going to France.

In short: Brits vote for Brexit. Brits find out that Brexit will affect them personally. Brits then get upset with the EU.

https://twitter.com/archer_rs/status/12 ... 0885386240


Reminds me of an incident at Amsterdam Airport a few months ago where UK passport holders were required to use the non-EU lane, and thus wait before they could enter The Netherlands. Some Brits were furious. Though it was a mistake, it will be reality after December 31st 2020 when UK passport holders will learn that being outside the EU has some downsides.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:43 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
One of the 2 I talk about was surprised that as from January next year, he can no longer move to another EU country for work and called it unfair because this would hinder his carreer prospects within the multinational he works for, which was the reason he took on a job offer on the continent with them in the first place!

Trust a Brexiter not to know that if the multinational that he works for wants him to work in another country anywhere in the world that company not him is responsible for getting all the paper work done.
 
LJ
Posts: 5255
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:04 pm

par13del wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
One of the 2 I talk about was surprised that as from January next year, he can no longer move to another EU country for work and called it unfair because this would hinder his carreer prospects within the multinational he works for, which was the reason he took on a job offer on the continent with them in the first place!

Trust a Brexiter not to know that if the multinational that he works for wants him to work in another country anywhere in the world that company not him is responsible for getting all the paper work done.


That isn't always the case. British self employed will have to make their arrangements to ensure they're allowed to work for a company (at least that's how it worked at the company I work for). This usually means that all British consultants without an EU residence permit are replaced by consultants from the EU or British consultants with an EU residence permit (thus no more British consultants fying in and out of The Neetherlands each week). We did have colleagues exchanging their British passport for a Dutch one as our "own" employees were required to ensure to have a residence permit..
 
noviorbis77
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Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:17 pm

LJ wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
I found an interesting twitter thread that gave an interesting insight into the mind of three brexitvoters. They seem to think that the point of Brexit was to stop people going to the UK, not to stop them going to France.

In short: Brits vote for Brexit. Brits find out that Brexit will affect them personally. Brits then get upset with the EU.

https://twitter.com/archer_rs/status/12 ... 0885386240


Reminds me of an incident at Amsterdam Airport a few months ago where UK passport holders were required to use the non-EU lane, and thus wait before they could enter The Netherlands. Some Brits were furious. Though it was a mistake, it will be reality after December 31st 2020 when UK passport holders will learn that being outside the EU has some downsides.



Likewise. Nationals of EU nations will have to learn to queue with those that require visas etc come 1st January, if they wish to visit the UK.

Plus we’ll make sure you meet the Immigration Rules before we let you enter.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 11465
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:55 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
LJ wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
I found an interesting twitter thread that gave an interesting insight into the mind of three brexitvoters. They seem to think that the point of Brexit was to stop people going to the UK, not to stop them going to France.

In short: Brits vote for Brexit. Brits find out that Brexit will affect them personally. Brits then get upset with the EU.

https://twitter.com/archer_rs/status/12 ... 0885386240


Reminds me of an incident at Amsterdam Airport a few months ago where UK passport holders were required to use the non-EU lane, and thus wait before they could enter The Netherlands. Some Brits were furious. Though it was a mistake, it will be reality after December 31st 2020 when UK passport holders will learn that being outside the EU has some downsides.



Likewise. Nationals of EU nations will have to learn to queue with those that require visas etc come 1st January, if they wish to visit the UK.

Plus we’ll make sure you meet the Immigration Rules before we let you enter.


Correct, everything goes both ways. So your choice has put up a wall between the 66million Britts and 450million other EU citizens. We can just travel to and even move to 26 other countries and you can't by choice.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
LJ
Posts: 5255
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:58 am

One begins to wonder if there will one area where both the EU and UK can agree on.....It's also clear that whilst the UK wants to negotiate agreement by agreement, the EU wants an agreement for the whole package at once.Telling is Barnier's comment "But let us have no illusions: the UK will progressively start diverging from the EU framework. This is even one of the main purposes of Brexit." which basically means that the EU is using UK's view to counter UK's argument that a level playing field is not necessary as it it already has the same standards.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/30/britain-and-brussels-turn-on-each-other-for-prolonging-citys-uncertainty
 
Bostrom
Posts: 941
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:31 am

I've had some great trips to the UK and I would love to go back once the pandemic is over. But if I would have to queue with those that require visas, there are 25 other countries that will let me in without looking at my passport and they will start to become more attractive as holiday destinations.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1981
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:28 pm

Bostrom wrote:
I've had some great trips to the UK and I would love to go back once the pandemic is over. But if I would have to queue with those that require visas, there are 25 other countries that will let me in without looking at my passport and they will start to become more attractive as holiday destinations.


Tourists won’t have to queue much. They’ve installed e-kiosks for current non-EU nationals from western countries that will presumably be usable by EU nationals after 1 Jan. Not sure about visa holders, but doubt that will mean much anyway. It’s pretty quick now relative to two-three years ago. No (or rare) interaction with border officers, which saves time.

I would take anything coming from Brexiteers on this front with a pinch of salt; the UK relies a lot more on EU tourism than the other way round.

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