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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:35 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Britain have always be ones to do things differently. Ireland are probably one of the less EU compatible countries as they don’t do schengen.


That was some masterful trolling, Sir. Ireland not joining Schengen because they are anti-EU, marvellous trolling!


Ireland probably realises the flaws of Schengen. Besides they are in the CTA.


Another marvellous troll. Ireland wanted to be aligned with the UK, so they gave into the stupidity of the UK.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:54 pm

AeroVega wrote:
Agreed. Being part of the EU is not really necessary for an island nation.

There's no real difference to continental nations, through – see Cyprus, Malta or Ireland, for instance!

If you ignore the Irish border, that is (which most leavers do).

Yeah, but that's also the main reason why Ireland is not in Schengen, with the UK having opted out of that.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:07 pm

A101 wrote:
Under the terms of the transition period the UK has to completely comply with EU rules, that would also imply that the continent also cannot change the rules to suit themselves.

Nope. That is specifically not true!

The EU will continue to adapt its rules as it sees fit as it has always done, the UK has just thrown away its own vote and veto about that, but the UK only has the choice to abide by the changed rules or to quit the transition phase: That's it!

Yes, the EU will refrain from taking any unreasonable steps against the UK in this dependent state, but that was never in doubt anyway and would have gone without saying if there weren't those insane conspiracy theories in the UK. It's not a hard rule, though, but just restating the obvious.

It’s why you sent a revised bill for membership fees.

Wrong. That is just perfectly normal standard procedure and regular members are getting that, too, when the actual cash flow deviates from budget planning. You're just noticing that for the first time, apparently, which is saying something.

So nothing actually changes until either a trade agreement is reached or we go to the fall back position of WTO and third country entry requirements.

Or until the EU changes its rules normally as it proceeds. You're mistaken if you believe that the UK's transition phase would somehow freeze any progress of the EU. It does not!

I’m still surprised that the EU allowed the ROI to enter into an agreement with the UK for CTA

Your surprise is still primarily based on not understanding how any of this actually works, despite all the available information, including as given in these threads!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
seahawk wrote:

That was some masterful trolling, Sir. Ireland not joining Schengen because they are anti-EU, marvellous trolling!


Ireland probably realises the flaws of Schengen. Besides they are in the CTA.


Another marvellous troll. Ireland wanted to be aligned with the UK, so they gave into the stupidity of the UK.


How am I a troll? I’ve explained to you about the flaws of Schengen.

Is any of it unclear?
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
seahawk wrote:

That was some masterful trolling, Sir. Ireland not joining Schengen because they are anti-EU, marvellous trolling!


Ireland probably realises the flaws of Schengen. Besides they are in the CTA.


Another marvellous troll. Ireland wanted to be aligned with the UK, so they gave into the stupidity of the UK.


Ireland know which way their bread is buttered, so of course they have stayed aligned to the UK. Ireland would be a broken country without us.
1973-2020
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:50 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Ireland probably realises the flaws of Schengen. Besides they are in the CTA.


Another marvellous troll. Ireland wanted to be aligned with the UK, so they gave into the stupidity of the UK.


Ireland know which way their bread is buttered, so of course they have stayed aligned to the UK. Ireland would be a broken country without us.


No, a broken country without the EU. They wont make the same follish mistake as the UK. And as it stand, the UK will. be broken up in two.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:56 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Ireland probably realises the flaws of Schengen. Besides they are in the CTA.


Another marvellous troll. Ireland wanted to be aligned with the UK, so they gave into the stupidity of the UK.


Ireland know which way their bread is buttered, so of course they have stayed aligned to the UK. Ireland would be a broken country without us.


Ireland is a split country, and that's exactly the reason they have historically bended over backwards to accomodate the Northern Irish question.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:57 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Ireland probably realises the flaws of Schengen. Besides they are in the CTA.


Another marvellous troll. Ireland wanted to be aligned with the UK, so they gave into the stupidity of the UK.


How am I a troll? I’ve explained to you about the flaws of Schengen.

Is any of it unclear?


Your arguments are flawed anyhow, Schengen is a good idea, no more border controls, a good thing for border comunities. Many people work in one country and live in another and perhaps go do their shopping in a thrid. All possible within a day because there a no borders. Perfect for a small country like the Netherlands.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:54 pm

JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Another marvellous troll. Ireland wanted to be aligned with the UK, so they gave into the stupidity of the UK.


Ireland know which way their bread is buttered, so of course they have stayed aligned to the UK. Ireland would be a broken country without us.


Ireland is a split country, and that's exactly the reason they have historically bended over backwards to accomodate the Northern Irish question.


Ireland has never been a split country. It was the United Kingdom. If anything, Northern Ireland was the split country as it’s the remaining original piece.
1973-2020
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:55 pm

Arion640 wrote:

Ireland has never been a split country. It was the United Kingdom. If anything, Northern Ireland was the split country as it’s the remaining original piece.


Huh? Was there nobody in Ireland before the English showed up? No distinct language or culture?

Got to say, that’s a pretty bizarre assertion. What next - going to say the same for Scotland? Are you an impostor trying to give credibility to the “little Englander” stereotype?

But let’s say you’re right. What is it about this England dominated union that makes the significant chunks of the other nations of the “United Kingdom” want to leave?
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:12 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

Now. Other than not having to need a passport to travel or crossing EU nations without border checks please enlighten us all to the merits of being in the Schengen area.


Who knows? Presumably the states of two of the largest existing unions - the US and India - set up similar rules within their unions just for (kicks) and giggles.

Alternatively, economic benefits - simpler movement of labour and parts etc. Or maybe they just didn’t see the point of subjecting everyone to the weirder quirks associated with power-tripping border guards (LHR-style virginity checks).
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:39 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Ireland has never been a split country. It was the United Kingdom. If anything, Northern Ireland was the split country as it’s the remaining original piece.


Huh? Was there nobody in Ireland before the English showed up? No distinct language or culture?

Got to say, that’s a pretty bizarre assertion. What next - going to say the same for Scotland? Are you an impostor trying to give credibility to the “little Englander” stereotype?

But let’s say you’re right. What is it about this England dominated union that makes the significant chunks of the other nations of the “United Kingdom” want to leave?


Modern Ireland then.

The england dominated part is a problem, i agree. But no different to Texas, California and New York calling the shots in the USA. Thats where the money and the employment is.
1973-2020
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1902
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:54 pm

Arion640 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Ireland has never been a split country. It was the United Kingdom. If anything, Northern Ireland was the split country as it’s the remaining original piece.


Huh? Was there nobody in Ireland before the English showed up? No distinct language or culture?

Got to say, that’s a pretty bizarre assertion. What next - going to say the same for Scotland? Are you an impostor trying to give credibility to the “little Englander” stereotype?

But let’s say you’re right. What is it about this England dominated union that makes the significant chunks of the other nations of the “United Kingdom” want to leave?


Modern Ireland then.

The england dominated part is a problem, i agree. But no different to Texas, California and New York calling the shots in the USA. Thats where the money and the employment is.


As opposed to Modern England, which isn’t much older.

Anyway, how many US states have 40%+ support for independence because of NY, CA or TX? Very different on the face of it.

Goes without saying that every country has economic engines and economic laggards. They somehow generally manage not to alienate 40% of the population in the lagging areas. Makes me think it has less to do with economics than with cultural factors.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:12 pm

Arion640 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Ireland know which way their bread is buttered, so of course they have stayed aligned to the UK. Ireland would be a broken country without us.


Ireland is a split country, and that's exactly the reason they have historically bended over backwards to accomodate the Northern Irish question.


Ireland has never been a split country. It was the United Kingdom. If anything, Northern Ireland was the split country as it’s the remaining original piece.


This is what the Irish constitution said until the GFA.

Article 2 Edit
The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas.

Article 3 Edit
Pending the re-integration of the national territory, and without prejudice to the right of the parliament and government established by this constitution to exercise jurisdiction over the whole territory, the laws enacted by the parliament shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws of Saorstát Éireann and the like extra-territorial effect.

You may agree or not but the Irish made it quite clear they consider the island a single entity.

Even the current watered down version still speaks clearly about a potential united Ireland.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:16 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Another marvellous troll. Ireland wanted to be aligned with the UK, so they gave into the stupidity of the UK.


How am I a troll? I’ve explained to you about the flaws of Schengen.

Is any of it unclear?


Your arguments are flawed anyhow, Schengen is a good idea, no more border controls, a good thing for border comunities. Many people work in one country and live in another and perhaps go do their shopping in a thrid. All possible within a day because there a no borders. Perfect for a small country like the Netherlands.


My arguments are not flawed.

Do you like having young girls trafficked for sexual exploitation?
Do you like illegal firearms on the streets?
Do you want foreign national offenders, who are deported back on the streets?

Schengen for an island nation is not a good idea.

you do talk as if you want your country to disappear and be part of one federal Europe.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:22 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Another marvellous troll. Ireland wanted to be aligned with the UK, so they gave into the stupidity of the UK.


How am I a troll? I’ve explained to you about the flaws of Schengen.

Is any of it unclear?


Your arguments are flawed anyhow, Schengen is a good idea, no more border controls, a good thing for border comunities. Many people work in one country and live in another and perhaps go do their shopping in a thrid. All possible within a day because there a no borders. Perfect for a small country like the Netherlands.


Besides your argument is flawed.

You can still do the above in a non Schengen country. You just need to have a passport or ID card checked at the border :)
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:28 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

How am I a troll? I’ve explained to you about the flaws of Schengen.

Is any of it unclear?


Your arguments are flawed anyhow, Schengen is a good idea, no more border controls, a good thing for border comunities. Many people work in one country and live in another and perhaps go do their shopping in a thrid. All possible within a day because there a no borders. Perfect for a small country like the Netherlands.


Besides your argument is flawed.

You can still do the above in a non Schengen country. You just need to have a passport or ID card checked at the border :)


Sure, if you have somewhere between 5 minutes and 30 minutes or longer at the border for the checks and driving through a border checkpoint, might not be the most convenient point to coss, perhaps a detour.
So no, you cannot really do that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:30 pm

Klaus wrote:

Nope. That is specifically not true!

The EU will continue to adapt its rules as it sees fit as it has always done, the UK has just thrown away its own vote and veto about that, but the UK only has the choice to abide by the changed rules or to quit the transition phase: That's it!

Yes, the EU will refrain from taking any unreasonable steps against the UK in this dependent state, but that was never in doubt anyway and would have gone without saying if there weren't those insane conspiracy theories in the UK. It's not a hard rule, though, but just restating the obvious.



You have misinterpreted what I wrote, the EU has to apply the rules to the same standard as every other member within the EU,nothing more nothing less

Klaus wrote:

Wrong. That is just perfectly normal standard procedure and regular members are getting that, too, when the actual cash flow deviates from budget planning. You're just noticing that for the first time, apparently, which is saying something.



Nope was not wrong if you really look at what I wrote, have noticed it before it’s not like it’s the first time it has happened

Klaus wrote:

Or until the EU changes its rules normally as it proceeds. You're mistaken if you believe that the UK's transition phase would somehow freeze any progress of the EU. It does not!



Yes and that was the argument for not signing the original WA with the backstop in perpetuity, and why there was a concerted push to leave with no deal. The EU can actually do anything they want against the wishes and detriment of the UK and we have no recourse. It’s the very reason why Johnson will not extended the transition period and why we talk about divergence, it not about the rules as they stand it’s future rules that may apply


Klaus wrote:
Your surprise is still primarily based on not understanding how any of this actually works, despite all the available information, including as given in these threads!




No the surprise was that Brussels let it happen at all as we are talking about an external border, with Brussels likes to keep dealing close to themselves. What do you think the reaction from Brussels would be if every EU member made bilateral agreements for free movement with another non member. I doubt it would get much traction as Brussels would be losing control if the Union
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:31 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

My arguments are not flawed.

Do you like having young girls trafficked for sexual exploitation?
Do you like illegal firearms on the streets?
Do you want foreign national offenders, who are deported back on the streets?

Schengen for an island nation is not a good idea.

you do talk as if you want your country to disappear and be part of one federal Europe.


Well, that’s a whopper of a red herring.

The UK has a schengen-type zone within its own territory. If we follow your logic, there should be borders between the UK’s nations or, indeed, between counties, seeing as crime varies between regions.

If you disagree then, well, in your own words:

Do you like having young girls trafficked for sexual exploitation?
Do you like illegal firearms on the streets?
Do you want (other region) offenders, who are deported back on the streets?

Or maybe I’m missing the point. Maybe what you’re claiming here is that only foreigners/immigrants commit those types of crimes?

As an aside, isn’t the entire premise of the “British“ citizenship etc aimed at blending the Cornwalls, Wales and Scotlands into the union of Great Britain. Isn’t that the central premise of any Union? That it consists of various distinct nations working together by ceding some degree of sovereignty?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:32 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

How am I a troll? I’ve explained to you about the flaws of Schengen.

Is any of it unclear?


Your arguments are flawed anyhow, Schengen is a good idea, no more border controls, a good thing for border comunities. Many people work in one country and live in another and perhaps go do their shopping in a thrid. All possible within a day because there a no borders. Perfect for a small country like the Netherlands.


My arguments are not flawed.

Do you like having young girls trafficked for sexual exploitation?
Do you like illegal firearms on the streets?
Do you want foreign national offenders, who are deported back on the streets?

Schengen for an island nation is not a good idea.

you do talk as if you want your country to disappear and be part of one federal Europe.


That's why your argumentation is flawed, this is the best you can do, some truisms putting out there. You know we try to do something about all those things in the Netherlands. So in order to prove your point, you need to prove that all those things are less in UK society than on mainland Europe. So can you? If not, your points. are mood.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1902
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:36 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

How am I a troll? I’ve explained to you about the flaws of Schengen.

Is any of it unclear?


Your arguments are flawed anyhow, Schengen is a good idea, no more border controls, a good thing for border comunities. Many people work in one country and live in another and perhaps go do their shopping in a thrid. All possible within a day because there a no borders. Perfect for a small country like the Netherlands.


Besides your argument is flawed.

You can still do the above in a non Schengen country. You just need to have a passport or ID card checked at the border :)


Really? In most case, you need work permits, visas etc. And border crossings take time. Not to mention the hassle of dealing with power tripping border guards. It’s pretty much why there’s no border checks between US states.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:58 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

My arguments are not flawed.

Do you like having young girls trafficked for sexual exploitation?
Do you like illegal firearms on the streets?
Do you want foreign national offenders, who are deported back on the streets?

Schengen for an island nation is not a good idea.

you do talk as if you want your country to disappear and be part of one federal Europe.


Well, that’s a whopper of a red herring.

The UK has a schengen-type zone within its own territory. If we follow your logic, there should be borders between the UK’s nations or, indeed, between counties, seeing as crime varies between regions.

If you disagree then, well, in your own words:

Do you like having young girls trafficked for sexual exploitation?
Do you like illegal firearms on the streets?
Do you want (other region) offenders, who are deported back on the streets?

Or maybe I’m missing the point. Maybe what you’re claiming here is that only foreigners/immigrants commit those types of crimes?

As an aside, isn’t the entire premise of the “British“ citizenship etc aimed at blending the Cornwalls, Wales and Scotlands into the union of Great Britain. Isn’t that the central premise of any Union? That it consists of various distinct nations working together by ceding some degree of sovereignty?


We have the CTA. Anything going into the UK via Ireland has checks by the Irish. We have that safety net. We are a nation that has existed for hundreds of years in its present format.

Something that has been accepted and used long since the conception of Schengen.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Your arguments are flawed anyhow, Schengen is a good idea, no more border controls, a good thing for border comunities. Many people work in one country and live in another and perhaps go do their shopping in a thrid. All possible within a day because there a no borders. Perfect for a small country like the Netherlands.


My arguments are not flawed.

Do you like having young girls trafficked for sexual exploitation?
Do you like illegal firearms on the streets?
Do you want foreign national offenders, who are deported back on the streets?

Schengen for an island nation is not a good idea.

you do talk as if you want your country to disappear and be part of one federal Europe.


That's why your argumentation is flawed, this is the best you can do, some truisms putting out there. You know we try to do something about all those things in the Netherlands. So in order to prove your point, you need to prove that all those things are less in UK society than on mainland Europe. So can you? If not, your points. are mood.


We are an Island. We can protect ourselves far easier than a nation like yours with its land borders.

Do you have problems with illegal firearms, illegal migrants, narcotics etc in Holland? I frankly couldn’t care less. It is your country. Not mine.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:14 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

My arguments are not flawed.

Do you like having young girls trafficked for sexual exploitation?
Do you like illegal firearms on the streets?
Do you want foreign national offenders, who are deported back on the streets?

Schengen for an island nation is not a good idea.

you do talk as if you want your country to disappear and be part of one federal Europe.


Well, that’s a whopper of a red herring.

The UK has a schengen-type zone within its own territory. If we follow your logic, there should be borders between the UK’s nations or, indeed, between counties, seeing as crime varies between regions.

If you disagree then, well, in your own words:

Do you like having young girls trafficked for sexual exploitation?
Do you like illegal firearms on the streets?
Do you want (other region) offenders, who are deported back on the streets?

Or maybe I’m missing the point. Maybe what you’re claiming here is that only foreigners/immigrants commit those types of crimes?

As an aside, isn’t the entire premise of the “British“ citizenship etc aimed at blending the Cornwalls, Wales and Scotlands into the union of Great Britain. Isn’t that the central premise of any Union? That it consists of various distinct nations working together by ceding some degree of sovereignty?


We have the CTA. Anything going into the UK via Ireland has checks by the Irish. We have that safety net. We are a nation that has existed for hundreds of years in its present format.

Something that has been accepted and used long since the conception of Schengen.


you have your little Schengen and here you argue against it.

I guess no:
young girls trafficked for sexual exploitation via Ireland going to the UK.
illegal firearms via Ireland going to the UK
offenders, who are deported back going to the UK

Those Irish are damn good I guess :D
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1726
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:18 pm

JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Ireland is a split country, and that's exactly the reason they have historically bended over backwards to accomodate the Northern Irish question.


Ireland has never been a split country. It was the United Kingdom. If anything, Northern Ireland was the split country as it’s the remaining original piece.


This is what the Irish constitution said until the GFA.

Article 2 Edit
The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas.

Article 3 Edit
Pending the re-integration of the national territory, and without prejudice to the right of the parliament and government established by this constitution to exercise jurisdiction over the whole territory, the laws enacted by the parliament shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws of Saorstát Éireann and the like extra-territorial effect.

You may agree or not but the Irish made it quite clear they consider the island a single entity.

Even the current watered down version still speaks clearly about a potential united Ireland.




And the Argentine Constitution claims sovereignty over the UK held Falklands Islands;

“First The Argentine Nation ratifies its legitimate and imprescriptible sovereignty over the Malvinas, South Georgias and South Sandwich Islands and the corresponding maritime and insular spaces, as it is an integral part of the national territory."
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:29 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
We have the CTA. Anything going into the UK via Ireland has checks by the Irish .


So what? Thats good for Ireland.

Does that make sex trafficking/illegal fire arms/free movement of criminals within the UK, okay? What’s the logic here?

Is it that only foreigners are criminals? Or is it that these crimes are more tolerable if they originate within the UK? If not, why not set up borders around high crime areas within the UK etc?

Your entire premise in that post was built on spurious assumptions.

noviorbis77 wrote:
We are a nation that has existed for hundreds of years in its present format.


Which nation? England? UKGBNI? Or Wessex?

As an aside, why is time relevant here? India spent 190 years as a British colony and and only 73 as an independence. Does that entitle the UK to reclaim India as a colony?

Looks like your poorly thought out assumptions strike once again.

noviorbis77 wrote:
Something that has been accepted and used long since the conception of Schengen.


Indeed. And the Schengen is based on it. You cant denigrate the principle underlying one without making a mockery of the principle underlying the other. That’s the problem with your regressive line of attack here - whatever you’re projecting on the European Union applies equally to the union you call the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

You recognize that - hence the whole clutching at straws act claiming that the age of a political entity somehow gives it more legitimacy than a similar entity of a younger age. Its... not very well thought out.
Last edited by ElPistolero on Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3511
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Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:32 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Ireland has never been a split country. It was the United Kingdom. If anything, Northern Ireland was the split country as it’s the remaining original piece.


This is what the Irish constitution said until the GFA.

Article 2 Edit
The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas.

Article 3 Edit
Pending the re-integration of the national territory, and without prejudice to the right of the parliament and government established by this constitution to exercise jurisdiction over the whole territory, the laws enacted by the parliament shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws of Saorstát Éireann and the like extra-territorial effect.

You may agree or not but the Irish made it quite clear they consider the island a single entity.

Even the current watered down version still speaks clearly about a potential united Ireland.



And the Argentine Constitution claims sovereignty over the UK held Falklands Islands;

“First The Argentine Nation ratifies its legitimate and imprescriptible sovereignty over the Malvinas, South Georgias and South Sandwich Islands and the corresponding maritime and insular spaces, as it is an integral part of the national territory."


Which means Argentinians consider them part of their nation.

Unlike in Ireland though, there's no sizeable domestic pro-Argentinian population.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:36 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

We are an Island. We can protect ourselves far easier than a nation like yours with its land borders.

Do you have problems with illegal firearms, illegal migrants, narcotics etc in Holland? I frankly couldn’t care less. It is your country. Not mine.


Aha - you too are an impostor trying to give credibility to the notion that a “little Englander” mindset drove Brexit. Pull up the drawbridge, o hermit kingdom.

Applying that to climate change... would ... well it would make things very entertaining.

But, y’know... “global Britain“ etc. Must be odd to end up on the winning and losing side at the same time.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 957
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:47 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Well, that’s a whopper of a red herring.

The UK has a schengen-type zone within its own territory. If we follow your logic, there should be borders between the UK’s nations or, indeed, between counties, seeing as crime varies between regions.

If you disagree then, well, in your own words:

Do you like having young girls trafficked for sexual exploitation?
Do you like illegal firearms on the streets?
Do you want (other region) offenders, who are deported back on the streets?

Or maybe I’m missing the point. Maybe what you’re claiming here is that only foreigners/immigrants commit those types of crimes?

As an aside, isn’t the entire premise of the “British“ citizenship etc aimed at blending the Cornwalls, Wales and Scotlands into the union of Great Britain. Isn’t that the central premise of any Union? That it consists of various distinct nations working together by ceding some degree of sovereignty?


We have the CTA. Anything going into the UK via Ireland has checks by the Irish. We have that safety net. We are a nation that has existed for hundreds of years in its present format.

Something that has been accepted and used long since the conception of Schengen.


you have your little Schengen and here you argue against it.

I guess no:
young girls trafficked for sexual exploitation via Ireland going to the UK.
illegal firearms via Ireland going to the UK
offenders, who are deported back going to the UK

Those Irish are damn good I guess :D


We don’t have the same issues with things going through Ireland.

But hey ho if you’d rather see things less safe in the UK for sake of presenting a passport or ID card, then you are entitled to your opinion.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 957
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:48 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Ireland has never been a split country. It was the United Kingdom. If anything, Northern Ireland was the split country as it’s the remaining original piece.


This is what the Irish constitution said until the GFA.

Article 2 Edit
The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas.

Article 3 Edit
Pending the re-integration of the national territory, and without prejudice to the right of the parliament and government established by this constitution to exercise jurisdiction over the whole territory, the laws enacted by the parliament shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws of Saorstát Éireann and the like extra-territorial effect.

You may agree or not but the Irish made it quite clear they consider the island a single entity.

Even the current watered down version still speaks clearly about a potential united Ireland.




And the Argentine Constitution claims sovereignty over the UK held Falklands Islands;

“First The Argentine Nation ratifies its legitimate and imprescriptible sovereignty over the Malvinas, South Georgias and South Sandwich Islands and the corresponding maritime and insular spaces, as it is an integral part of the national territory."


It did not work out well for them last time did it.
 
olle
Posts: 1661
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:49 pm

Schengen needs a defined migration implementation.

EITAS will be a step in enabling the Schengen and Schengen countries will probably request for non Schengen EU countries like ROI to have a stronger border inforcement if they shall have current access to Schengen without EITAS.

By the way is Mr Cummings the new Rasputin? He seems to act like one, except the women ;-)
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 957
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:50 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
We have the CTA. Anything going into the UK via Ireland has checks by the Irish .


So what? Thats good for Ireland.

Does that make sex trafficking/illegal fire arms/free movement of criminals within the UK, okay? What’s the logic here?

Is it that only foreigners are criminals? Or is it that these crimes are more tolerable if they originate within the UK? If not, why not set up borders around high crime areas within the UK etc?

Your entire premise in that post was built on spurious assumptions.

noviorbis77 wrote:
We are a nation that has existed for hundreds of years in its present format.


Which nation? England? UKGBNI? Or Wessex?

As an aside, why is time relevant here? India spent 190 years as a British colony and and only 73 as an independence. Does that entitle the UK to reclaim India as a colony?

Looks like your poorly thought out assumptions strike once again.

noviorbis77 wrote:
Something that has been accepted and used long since the conception of Schengen.


Indeed. And the Schengen is based on it. You cant denigrate the principle underlying one without making a mockery of the principle underlying the other. That’s the problem with your regressive line of attack here - whatever you’re projecting on the European Union applies equally to the union you call the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

You recognize that - hence the whole clutching at straws act claiming that the age of a political entity somehow gives it more legitimacy than a similar entity of a younger age. Its... not very well thought out.


It is rather foolish to compare an arrangement with one nation, that has been culturally entwined for decades, with the large scale Schengen arrangement with nations we are not as close to.
 
A101
Posts: 1726
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:53 pm

JJJ wrote:
Which means Argentinians consider them part of their nation.

Unlike in Ireland though, there's no sizeable domestic pro-Argentinian population.


Your original point being that the Irish constitution made a claim over all of the Irish island, it’s really symbolic and worthless at the same time. Just as Morocco claims sovereignty over Spanish territorial possessions and the a Argentines over the Falklands. You might as well claim sovereignty over the moon it will hold the same recognition from other countries
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:25 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

It is rather foolish to compare an arrangement with one nation, that has been culturally entwined for decades, with the large scale Schengen arrangement with nations we are not as close to.


One nation? Or four nations in one union? You’re throwing around terms you don’t appear to actually understand. Which might appear foolish to some.

Also, how much does “cultural entwinement for decades” matter? The US and Canada - or India and Pakistan for that matter - are equally, if not more, entwined. Yet they exist separately. Why, then, should Wales, Scotland etc be bound to England?

For what it’s worth, the UK is more culturally entwined with European states than it is with the vast majority of countries it ruled for centuries - after all, most of current day Europe spent centuries under Roman rule together (by your own logic, time matters). And on and on we can go down your bizarre line of logic.

As an aside, why are you dodging the questions you yourself raised regarding crime? Is it because the answers might reveal how foolish the premise of your initial line of argument was?
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 957
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:34 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

It is rather foolish to compare an arrangement with one nation, that has been culturally entwined for decades, with the large scale Schengen arrangement with nations we are not as close to.


One nation? Or four nations in one union? You’re throwing around terms you don’t appear to actually understand. Which might appear foolish to some.

Also, how much does “cultural entwinement for decades” matter? The US and Canada - or India and Pakistan for that matter - are equally, if not more, entwined. Yet they exist separately. Why, then, should Wales, Scotland etc be bound to England?

For what it’s worth, the UK is more culturally entwined with European states than it is with the vast majority of countries it ruled for centuries - after all, most of current day Europe spent centuries under Roman rule together (by your own logic, time matters). And on and on we can go down your bizarre line of logic.

As an aside, why are you dodging the questions you yourself raised regarding crime? Is it because the answers might reveal how foolish the premise of your initial line of argument was?


Remind me. What was the question of crime?
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:40 pm

A101 wrote:

Your original point being that the Irish constitution made a claim over all of the Irish island, it’s really symbolic and worthless at the same time. Just as Morocco claims sovereignty over Spanish territorial possessions and the a Argentines over the Falklands. You might as well claim sovereignty over the moon it will hold the same recognition from other countries


It’s true. Like the whole UK-Chagos island thing these days (how the times they are-a-changing). Come to think of it, nobody puts much stock in that UK-China treaty involving Hong Kong either.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:41 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

It is rather foolish to compare an arrangement with one nation, that has been culturally entwined for decades, with the large scale Schengen arrangement with nations we are not as close to.


One nation? Or four nations in one union? You’re throwing around terms you don’t appear to actually understand. Which might appear foolish to some.

Also, how much does “cultural entwinement for decades” matter? The US and Canada - or India and Pakistan for that matter - are equally, if not more, entwined. Yet they exist separately. Why, then, should Wales, Scotland etc be bound to England?

For what it’s worth, the UK is more culturally entwined with European states than it is with the vast majority of countries it ruled for centuries - after all, most of current day Europe spent centuries under Roman rule together (by your own logic, time matters). And on and on we can go down your bizarre line of logic.

As an aside, why are you dodging the questions you yourself raised regarding crime? Is it because the answers might reveal how foolish the premise of your initial line of argument was?


Remind me. What was the question of crime?


Sure:

The UK has a schengen-type zone within its own territory. If we follow your logic, there should be borders between the UK’s nations or, indeed, between counties, seeing as crime varies between regions.

If you disagree then, well, in your own words:

Do you like having young girls trafficked for sexual exploitation?
Do you like illegal firearms on the streets?
Do you want (other region) offenders, who are deported back on the streets?

Or maybe I’m missing the point. Maybe what you’re claiming here is that only foreigners/immigrants commit those types of crimes?
 
JJJ
Posts: 3511
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:44 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Which means Argentinians consider them part of their nation.

Unlike in Ireland though, there's no sizeable domestic pro-Argentinian population.


Your original point being that the Irish constitution made a claim over all of the Irish island, it’s really symbolic and worthless at the same time.


My original point was that Ireland is a split nation which it is because it considers itself as such.

You feel it's worthless, which is part for the course on how Britain treats it's non-English national identities. So far it's worked but Brexit is going to put a lot of extra strain on that.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 957
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:47 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

One nation? Or four nations in one union? You’re throwing around terms you don’t appear to actually understand. Which might appear foolish to some.

Also, how much does “cultural entwinement for decades” matter? The US and Canada - or India and Pakistan for that matter - are equally, if not more, entwined. Yet they exist separately. Why, then, should Wales, Scotland etc be bound to England?

For what it’s worth, the UK is more culturally entwined with European states than it is with the vast majority of countries it ruled for centuries - after all, most of current day Europe spent centuries under Roman rule together (by your own logic, time matters). And on and on we can go down your bizarre line of logic.

As an aside, why are you dodging the questions you yourself raised regarding crime? Is it because the answers might reveal how foolish the premise of your initial line of argument was?


Remind me. What was the question of crime?


Sure:

The UK has a schengen-type zone within its own territory. If we follow your logic, there should be borders between the UK’s nations or, indeed, between counties, seeing as crime varies between regions.

If you disagree then, well, in your own words:

Do you like having young girls trafficked for sexual exploitation?
Do you like illegal firearms on the streets?
Do you want (other region) offenders, who are deported back on the streets?

Or maybe I’m missing the point. Maybe what you’re claiming here is that only foreigners/immigrants commit those types of crimes?


There is no history of Eastern European girls being trafficked to the UK via Ireland. Ireland has full checks of all passengers entering and has full customs checks. It is safer than it would be if it entered schengen.

Any firearms coming from the continent again could well be found by Irish customs, which would not be the case if they were in Schengen.

If Ireland joined Schengen (unlikely) there would be have to be full immigration and customs checks of everything coming to the UK from Ireland.

As for your point about Eastern European girls, being trafficked into the UK. It is something easily preventable. UK girls being trafficked internally in the UK, is not so preventable.

Has that answered your questions?
 
olle
Posts: 1661
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:50 pm

England has a very different view of the countries ruled by them is the ones they still ruling compared to their subjects. ROI is one and after yhe Brexit why would ROI ever not side on the EU side that gives them the best negotiation position in front of England since 1066?
 
A101
Posts: 1726
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:27 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

One nation? Or four nations in one union? You’re throwing around terms you don’t appear to actually understand. Which might appear foolish to some.

Also, how much does “cultural entwinement for decades” matter? The US and Canada - or India and Pakistan for that matter - are equally, if not more, entwined. Yet they exist separately. Why, then, should Wales, Scotland etc be bound to England?

For what it’s worth, the UK is more culturally entwined with European states than it is with the vast majority of countries it ruled for centuries - after all, most of current day Europe spent centuries under Roman rule together (by your own logic, time matters). And on and on we can go down your bizarre line of logic.

As an aside, why are you dodging the questions you yourself raised regarding crime? Is it because the answers might reveal how foolish the premise of your initial line of argument was?


Remind me. What was the question of crime?


Sure:

The UK has a schengen-type zone within its own territory. If we follow your logic, there should be borders between the UK’s nations or, indeed, between counties, seeing as crime varies between regions.

If you disagree then, well, in your own words:

Do you like having young girls trafficked for sexual exploitation?
Do you like illegal firearms on the streets?
Do you want (other region) offenders, who are deported back on the streets?

Or maybe I’m missing the point. Maybe what you’re claiming here is that only foreigners/immigrants commit those types of crimes?



Like every policy implement by governments or institutions there are unintended consequences, I'm not going to defend or fight the reasons behind Schengen.
Yes there are pro's and con's that come with Schengen;
Does it make life easier for law abiding citizens?...... yes it does.
Does it make life easier for criminal enterprises?...... yes it does

Human trafficking: nearly 16,000 victims in the EU ( report dated 17-10-2017)
Estimation between 2012-2014
63251 detected victims of human traffic; 54% is sexual exploitation, 38% forced labour and 8% other purpose (organ removal, domestic servitude)
21000000 estimate of forced labour
51% women, 20% girls, 21% men and 8% boys
65% are EU citizens
Top 5 countries of origin for the victims;
Romania, Bulgaria, The Netherlands, Hungary & Poland


Source;
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/resource ... iginal.jpg
 
A101
Posts: 1726
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:54 pm

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Which means Argentinians consider them part of their nation.

Unlike in Ireland though, there's no sizeable domestic pro-Argentinian population.


Your original point being that the Irish constitution made a claim over all of the Irish island, it’s really symbolic and worthless at the same time.


My original point was that Ireland is a split nation which it is because it considers itself as such.


NO; the point you actually made was that the whole if the island is Irish because it is part of its constitution, which in effect is worthless statement within the constitution because;

The Constitution of the Irish Free State was written after Partition of Ireland and the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921, and which the Constitution for the Republic of Ireland was changed in 1937 and then changed again due to the Belfast Agreement.

JJJ wrote:
You feel it's worthless, which is part for the course on how Britain treats it's non-English national identities. So far it's worked but Brexit is going to put a lot of extra strain on that.


I also said it was symbolic and which it is for the people of Éire, but in the greater scheme of things it is worthless as the global community recognise UK sovereignty over Norther Ireland, big difference to what you imply.

What most people on here fail to realises is that under Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921 and Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922 Northern Ireland had an opt out of the Irish Free State which it did so on 7 December 1922 Northern Ireland is part of the UK under its own free will.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:09 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Remind me. What was the question of crime?


Sure:

The UK has a schengen-type zone within its own territory. If we follow your logic, there should be borders between the UK’s nations or, indeed, between counties, seeing as crime varies between regions.

If you disagree then, well, in your own words:

Do you like having young girls trafficked for sexual exploitation?
Do you like illegal firearms on the streets?
Do you want (other region) offenders, who are deported back on the streets?

Or maybe I’m missing the point. Maybe what you’re claiming here is that only foreigners/immigrants commit those types of crimes?


There is no history of Eastern European girls being trafficked to the UK via Ireland. Ireland has full checks of all passengers entering and has full customs checks. It is safer than it would be if it entered schengen.

Any firearms coming from the continent again could well be found by Irish customs, which would not be the case if they were in Schengen.

If Ireland joined Schengen (unlikely) there would be have to be full immigration and customs checks of everything coming to the UK from Ireland.

As for your point about Eastern European girls, being trafficked into the UK. It is something easily preventable. UK girls being trafficked internally in the UK, is not so preventable.

Has that answered your questions?


Not really.

In fact, it comes across as talking from both sides of your mouth. On the one hand, you praise the virtue of borders / non-applicability of schengen type rules to islands. On the other hand, you praise the (very schengen-esque) CTA which involves no border checks between the two islands.

As a result, we end up in this weird situation where the benefits of borders that you praise (careful checks, criminal record checks etc) do not - and evidently should not - apply to crimes originating in Britain and Ireland, and moving between. If you’re actually concerned about crime, shouldn’t you be advocating the same stringent rules be applied uniformly, not just between the two islands, but between regions within countries?

Or is that concern about crime just a smokescreen to deploy as rhetorical questions, like you did with your post?
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:19 pm

A101 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Remind me. What was the question of crime?


Sure:

The UK has a schengen-type zone within its own territory. If we follow your logic, there should be borders between the UK’s nations or, indeed, between counties, seeing as crime varies between regions.

If you disagree then, well, in your own words:

Do you like having young girls trafficked for sexual exploitation?
Do you like illegal firearms on the streets?
Do you want (other region) offenders, who are deported back on the streets?

Or maybe I’m missing the point. Maybe what you’re claiming here is that only foreigners/immigrants commit those types of crimes?



Like every policy implement by governments or institutions there are unintended consequences, I'm not going to defend or fight the reasons behind Schengen.
Yes there are pro's and con's that come with Schengen;
Does it make life easier for law abiding citizens?...... yes it does.
Does it make life easier for criminal enterprises?...... yes it does

Human trafficking: nearly 16,000 victims in the EU ( report dated 17-10-2017)
Estimation between 2012-2014
63251 detected victims of human traffic; 54% is sexual exploitation, 38% forced labour and 8% other purpose (organ removal, domestic servitude)
21000000 estimate of forced labour
51% women, 20% girls, 21% men and 8% boys
65% are EU citizens
Top 5 countries of origin for the victims;
Romania, Bulgaria, The Netherlands, Hungary & Poland


Source;
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/resource ... iginal.jpg


Sure. All of that applies for the CTA as well. Or for that matter, free movement between union of Britain’s four nations. Point being: any criticism that applies to schengen, applies to the CTA and free movement within the UK.

Hence the general amusement at the regressive nature of some of the pro-Brexit arguments we’re seeing here. All of the shortcomings inherent in a union apply as much to the union of the British nations as they apply to the EU. And so we end up with this absurdity: the same people who criticize a union of nations because it overrides nation’s rights, refuse to acknowledge that they are overriding the democratically expressed will of two nations within their own union.

Can’t make this up.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21526
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:27 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Sure. All of that applies for the CTA as well. Or for that matter, free movement between union of Britain’s four nations. Point being: any criticism that applies to schengen, applies to the CTA and free movement within the UK.

Hence the general amusement at the regressive nature of some of the pro-Brexit arguments we’re seeing here. All of the shortcomings inherent in a union apply as much to the union of the British nations as they apply to the EU. And so we end up with this absurdity: the same people who criticize a union of nations because it overrides nation’s rights, refuse to acknowledge that they are overriding the democratically expressed will of two nations within their own union.

Can’t make this up.

When you strip off all the flimsy pretenses presented here, the nasty core of it all emerges: "Foreigners are evil and only foreigners are doing crimes (at least crimes we care about) and that is why pulling up the drawbridges around the UK will solve all the problems!"
 
Klaus
Posts: 21526
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:31 pm

A101 wrote:
Like every policy implement by governments or institutions there are unintended consequences, I'm not going to defend or fight the reasons behind Schengen.
Yes there are pro's and con's that come with Schengen;
Does it make life easier for law abiding citizens?...... yes it does.
Does it make life easier for criminal enterprises?...... yes it does

Does it make prosecution of criminal enterprises much easier (and thus their life much harder again)? Yes it does!

And the UK is throwing away that advantage as well, together with all the other ones.
 
Arion640
Posts: 2911
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:59 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Sure:

The UK has a schengen-type zone within its own territory. If we follow your logic, there should be borders between the UK’s nations or, indeed, between counties, seeing as crime varies between regions.

If you disagree then, well, in your own words:

Do you like having young girls trafficked for sexual exploitation?
Do you like illegal firearms on the streets?
Do you want (other region) offenders, who are deported back on the streets?

Or maybe I’m missing the point. Maybe what you’re claiming here is that only foreigners/immigrants commit those types of crimes?



Like every policy implement by governments or institutions there are unintended consequences, I'm not going to defend or fight the reasons behind Schengen.
Yes there are pro's and con's that come with Schengen;
Does it make life easier for law abiding citizens?...... yes it does.
Does it make life easier for criminal enterprises?...... yes it does

Human trafficking: nearly 16,000 victims in the EU ( report dated 17-10-2017)
Estimation between 2012-2014
63251 detected victims of human traffic; 54% is sexual exploitation, 38% forced labour and 8% other purpose (organ removal, domestic servitude)
21000000 estimate of forced labour
51% women, 20% girls, 21% men and 8% boys
65% are EU citizens
Top 5 countries of origin for the victims;
Romania, Bulgaria, The Netherlands, Hungary & Poland


Source;
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/resource ... iginal.jpg


Sure. All of that applies for the CTA as well. Or for that matter, free movement between union of Britain’s four nations. Point being: any criticism that applies to schengen, applies to the CTA and free movement within the UK.

Hence the general amusement at the regressive nature of some of the pro-Brexit arguments we’re seeing here. All of the shortcomings inherent in a union apply as much to the union of the British nations as they apply to the EU. And so we end up with this absurdity: the same people who criticize a union of nations because it overrides nation’s rights, refuse to acknowledge that they are overriding the democratically expressed will of two nations within their own union.

Can’t make this up.


Yes but the 4 nations of the UK are basically states or provinces much like the UAE, USA, Canadian states etc. They are all contained within the same sovereign territory.

The EU is a wannabe USA with freedom of movement between different nations with their own governments and heads of state.

The irish UK CTA is more like a very mini Schengen area arrangement, but the UK nations certainly aren’t.
1973-2020
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:35 am

Arion640 wrote:
Yes but the 4 nations of the UK are basically states or provinces much like the UAE, USA, Canadian states etc. They are all contained within the same sovereign territory.

The EU is a wannabe USA with freedom of movement between different nations with their own governments and heads of state.

The irish UK CTA is more like a very mini Schengen area arrangement, but the UK nations certainly aren’t.


Like virtually all countries, all those countries are unions of Previously smaller nations. They all realized pooling power/ceding sovereignty made sense. It’s the same for countries like India, which is as linguistically and culturally diverse as the EU. That’s been the general flow of history - ethnic/language based nations joining other nations for economic gain. It’s probably the same as the UK. Was there friction between them? Undoubtedly. The US went through a pretty epic civil war. Did they find a way to make it work? Evidently.

Now they’re all greater than the sum of their parts. Brexit, on the other hand, is regressive - reinforcing stereotypes and playing to outdated tropes of nationhood and associated national myths and exceptionalism. Lets be honest about what it is: at its heart, it’s about Britain viewing itself as being too good to be subjected to arrangements that other nations find acceptable.

Which begs the question: why shouldn’t that apply to Scotland? Or Wales?
 
A101
Posts: 1726
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:24 am

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Sure:

The UK has a schengen-type zone within its own territory. If we follow your logic, there should be borders between the UK’s nations or, indeed, between counties, seeing as crime varies between regions.

If you disagree then, well, in your own words:

Do you like having young girls trafficked for sexual exploitation?
Do you like illegal firearms on the streets?
Do you want (other region) offenders, who are deported back on the streets?

Or maybe I’m missing the point. Maybe what you’re claiming here is that only foreigners/immigrants commit those types of crimes?



Like every policy implement by governments or institutions there are unintended consequences, I'm not going to defend or fight the reasons behind Schengen.
Yes there are pro's and con's that come with Schengen;
Does it make life easier for law abiding citizens?...... yes it does.
Does it make life easier for criminal enterprises?...... yes it does

Human trafficking: nearly 16,000 victims in the EU ( report dated 17-10-2017)
Estimation between 2012-2014
63251 detected victims of human traffic; 54% is sexual exploitation, 38% forced labour and 8% other purpose (organ removal, domestic servitude)
21000000 estimate of forced labour
51% women, 20% girls, 21% men and 8% boys
65% are EU citizens
Top 5 countries of origin for the victims;
Romania, Bulgaria, The Netherlands, Hungary & Poland


Source;
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/resource ... iginal.jpg


Sure. All of that applies for the CTA as well. Or for that matter, free movement between union of Britain’s four nations. Point being: any criticism that applies to schengen, applies to the CTA and free movement within the UK.


Sure I agree with the predisposition that criminal enterprises can move easier within the confines of an economic area I haven't disputed that , but with enlargement of the EU it has made it easier and more open to abuse than what normally would be if it were restricted with border controls.



ElPistolero wrote:
Hence the general amusement at the regressive nature of some of the pro-Brexit arguments we’re seeing here. All of the shortcomings inherent in a union apply as much to the union of the British nations as they apply to the EU. And so we end up with this absurdity: the same people who criticize a union of nations because it overrides nation’s rights, refuse to acknowledge that they are overriding the democratically expressed will of two nations within their own union.



The main difference between the United Kingdom and the EU is the EU is trying to get to the point of a ever closer political union no member of the EU merged to create a new nation state, the UK achieved that with Scotland in 1706 under Acts of Union 1707 both the Parliament of Scotland and the Parliament of England ceased to exist, to form the Parliament of Great Britain and then again with Acts of Union 1800. Its only under the Belfast agreement when devolved powers were granted to NI was pressure placed to give the Scottish's the same and wales. Technically there are no individual nations within the UK as we are one nation under the Acts of the Union

For Scotland to become independent it would be the equivalent of Western Australia secession from the federation or secession in California in the United States both have been proposed
 
A101
Posts: 1726
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part 8: the UK government saying what I want is full access and divergence

Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:26 am

Klaus wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Sure. All of that applies for the CTA as well. Or for that matter, free movement between union of Britain’s four nations. Point being: any criticism that applies to schengen, applies to the CTA and free movement within the UK.

Hence the general amusement at the regressive nature of some of the pro-Brexit arguments we’re seeing here. All of the shortcomings inherent in a union apply as much to the union of the British nations as they apply to the EU. And so we end up with this absurdity: the same people who criticize a union of nations because it overrides nation’s rights, refuse to acknowledge that they are overriding the democratically expressed will of two nations within their own union.

Can’t make this up.

When you strip off all the flimsy pretenses presented here, the nasty core of it all emerges: "Foreigners are evil and only foreigners are doing crimes (at least crimes we care about) and that is why pulling up the drawbridges around the UK will solve all the problems!"



That's actually you're bias showing through

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