anrec80
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:39 am

Dutchy wrote:

No, the reasons the sanctions were imposed are not solved. So if the Putin regime wants the sanctions lifted, they only have to obey the international rules, that's all. Let's never forget why the Putin regime is sanctioned.

The rest of your "contributions" are just as aspected from your neck of the woods.


Well, it’s not only “Putin regime” that’s sanctioned apparently. Some Dutch MPs also are. If he wants to go to Russia to criticize Russia - he’s welcome to, but first he needs to find a solution to sanctions situation. An example solution was proposed by Rand Paul - move all MPs out of sanctions lists, mutually. So solutions are out there, just need to negotiate them.

Russia was able to make this sanctions situation work for them, and their position is “sanctions is the problem of those who imposed them”. You imposed them - you remove them, and only then response measures will be lifted. Hence yes - until you find a solution to sanctions, these slaps will continue.

And your MP friend isn’t the only one. Some time ago the infamous Victoria “F the EU” Nuland tried to enter Russia for some conference, and got bounced back for this very reason.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:14 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

No, the reasons the sanctions were imposed are not solved. So if the Putin regime wants the sanctions lifted, they only have to obey the international rules, that's all. Let's never forget why the Putin regime is sanctioned.

The rest of your "contributions" are just as aspected from your neck of the woods.


Well, it’s not only “Putin regime” that’s sanctioned apparently. Some Dutch MPs also are. If he wants to go to Russia to criticize Russia - he’s welcome to, but first he needs to find a solution to sanctions situation. An example solution was proposed by Rand Paul - move all MPs out of sanctions lists, mutually. So solutions are out there, just need to negotiate them.

Russia was able to make this sanctions situation work for them, and their position is “sanctions is the problem of those who imposed them”. You imposed them - you remove them, and only then response measures will be lifted. Hence yes - until you find a solution to sanctions, these slaps will continue.

And your MP friend isn’t the only one. Some time ago the infamous Victoria “F the EU” Nuland tried to enter Russia for some conference, and got bounced back for this very reason.


Yeah invading another countries, cause mahem, using a troll army to influence other societies and the list goes on and on and on, is exactly the same as calling out an autocratic regime on their actions and warrent the same sanctions. Something like that? Old USSR propaganda technique: I did something, you did something, it is basically the same, right. Obviously it isn't, but sure, go ahead keep defending the Putin regime.

Good that the Putin regime makes the sanctions apear to work for the Russian population, he has one good propaganda machine.

In the end, the Putin regime does not want to talk to the Dutch parlaiment, fine and if the Putin regime want to isolate itself, also fine. It is his choice to isolate Russia. Not in the best interest of the ordenary Russian though, but it is quite ibvious that the Russian regime does not care about that, hence the repression in Russia and abuse of human rights.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:47 am

Dutchy wrote:

Good that the Putin regime makes the sanctions apear to work for the Russian population, he has one good propaganda machine.


It’s the EU who talks about these sanctions orders of magnitude more than Russians. Hence it’s easy to conclude who’s having more issues with this situation - EU or Russia. And who needs the solution of these sanctions spirals more.

Dutchy wrote:

In the end, the Putin regime does not want to talk to the Dutch parlaiment, fine and if the Putin regime want to isolate itself, also fine. It is his choice to isolate Russia. Not in the best interest of the ordenary Russian though, but it is quite ibvious that the Russian regime does not care about that, hence the repression in Russia and abuse of human rights.


As usual, devil is in the details.
https://www.urdupoint.com/en/world/mosc ... 22565.html

According to the Russian Foreign Ministry, the Netherlands was briefed beforehand that Sjoerdsma should not be part of the delegation over his aggressive statements about Russia.


The detail here is that members of such MP groups are being agreed upon beforehand, and Russians indicated that including Sjoerdsma was undesirable. But your side did not want to listen, and simply asked for this. Hence you need to figure out - what exactly you wanted by this - to actually talk or stage a scandal? Had you wanted actual talk - you could have listened to what you were being said and not included him. But given that Netherlands insisted on including him - nobody was really planning to go anywhere, and they just wanted to stage the scandal, which is exactly what happened.

And, last but not least - Western media have not mentioned this anywhere at all.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:28 am

anrec80 wrote:
But given that Netherlands insisted on including him - nobody was really planning to go anywhere, and they just wanted to stage the scandal, which is exactly what happened.

Just so you know, had I not read about this on a.net, then I would never have known about this scandal. This is a complete non-story in the Netherlands.

As for D66... these guys got no backbone whatsoever. Had you let Sjoerdsma visit the Duma, he would probably have come back the biggest Russia supporter around. Your loss. ;)
Attamottamotta!
 
tu204
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entry

Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:00 am

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Still trying to rewrite history I see. Don't feel like going into each of your foolish points, as you said yourself, you are missing quite a lot of knowledge.


Where exactly am I rewriting history? Just because my view of the facts is different from yours doesn't mean I am "rewriting" anything...


Wikipedia wrote:
Oxford English Dictionary defines regime as "a government, especially an authoritarian one"


I find it funny and sad that you try to provoke a reaction from me to call the western democracies as a regime.

Syria: state terrorism? No, not from the western side. They attacked ISIS when the Russians, Iranians were helping the Assad regime to regain power. They prolongued the war to ensure a different outcome. And now the Syrians are almost all under control of the harsh dictator again (and Russia has his little geo-political game in place). Also at the expence of the Syrian popultion who fled where ever the Russians came.

There is one. And we all know all your other stuff you are doing. Russian propaganda is well known and that's why it is difficult to have a real discussion with our Russian friends.


Not trying to provoke a response from you. I am calling things as they are. By your defitinition western regimes are exactly that. Regimes.

As far a Syria goes, there was an internal conflict which western regimes fueled into a clusterfuck. If it wasn't for Russia and Iran Syria would have turned into something worse than Iraq and Afghanistan combined. And much closer to Europe I might add. Thanks to Russia the situation is stabilized and recovering. Despite illegal attempts by the US and it's cronies and further destabilisation.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tu204
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:02 am

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
He is no "dude", he is a member of Parliament. Our parliament got invited, not the individuals. So by denying entry, a Member of the Dutch Parliament got denied, not just an individual. So in diplomatic circles, it is a slap in the face of The Netherlands. Do you have any opinion about that?


It’s a slap, I agree. But a well deserved one, I must admit. Yes, sanctions and response to them can have unexpected outcome years later. So let this incident provide Netherlands and EU one more reason to actually look for ways out of this sanctions spirals.


No, the reasons the sanctions were imposed are not solved. So if the Putin regime wants the sanctions lifted, they only have to obey the international rules, that's all. Let's never forget why the Putin regime is sanctioned.



Well in that case you could say that the reason Russian countersanctions were put in place have not been solved either, so in that case your guy can stay at home.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:20 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Good that the Putin regime makes the sanctions apear to work for the Russian population, he has one good propaganda machine.


It’s the EU who talks about these sanctions orders of magnitude more than Russians. Hence it’s easy to conclude who’s having more issues with this situation - EU or Russia. And who needs the solution of these sanctions spirals more.


Indeed, Russia. The Putin regime is autocratic, so no outside scrutiny, so no public debate. Different in the EU, everything is discussed in the open. Hence your troll army works to influence the public and in the end the politicians.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

In the end, the Putin regime does not want to talk to the Dutch parlaiment, fine and if the Putin regime want to isolate itself, also fine. It is his choice to isolate Russia. Not in the best interest of the ordenary Russian though, but it is quite ibvious that the Russian regime does not care about that, hence the repression in Russia and abuse of human rights.


As usual, devil is in the details.
https://www.urdupoint.com/en/world/mosc ... 22565.html

According to the Russian Foreign Ministry, the Netherlands was briefed beforehand that Sjoerdsma should not be part of the delegation over his aggressive statements about Russia.


The detail here is that members of such MP groups are being agreed upon beforehand, and Russians indicated that including Sjoerdsma was undesirable. But your side did not want to listen, and simply asked for this. Hence you need to figure out - what exactly you wanted by this - to actually talk or stage a scandal? Had you wanted actual talk - you could have listened to what you were being said and not included him. But given that Netherlands insisted on including him - nobody was really planning to go anywhere, and they just wanted to stage the scandal, which is exactly what happened.

And, last but not least - Western media have not mentioned this anywhere at all.


It is irrelevant. Not up to Russia to decide who will attend if they invite our Tweede Kamer. Either you invite our representatives, or you don't, there is no middle ground. So, as usual, the exact opposite is true, Russia didn't want to talk because they insisted on a MEP not to join, they knew what the reaction was, so their intent was to create an incident, which they got.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Aeroflot777
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:26 am

petertenthije wrote:
Just so you know, had I not read about this on a.net, then I would never have known about this scandal. This is a complete non-story in the Netherlands.


Completely agree, likewise a non-story in Moscow. News to me only from a.net. Usually posts and news by members who constantly have some verbal diarrhea rhetoric against anything related to Russia. Makes you wonder sometimes what the true intention really is.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:51 am

Dutchy wrote:
It is irrelevant. Not up to Russia to decide who will attend if they invite our Tweede Kamer. Either you invite our representatives, or you don't, there is no middle ground.


OK - have you read yourself what you wrote? This is out of healthy mind entirely. If you are going to visit someone somewhere, won’t you find it appropriate to first agree upon who is welcome and who is not, and take host’s opinion into account? For example, if I invite you and a few other friends into my house, and you decide to drag a few other random people along without even bothering to ask me - will you find this an OK thing to do as well?
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:
It is irrelevant. Not up to Russia to decide who will attend if they invite our Tweede Kamer. Either you invite our representatives, or you don't, there is no middle ground. So, as usual, the exact opposite is true, Russia didn't want to talk because they insisted on a MEP not to join, they knew what the reaction was, so their intent was to create an incident, which they got.


And one more detail. I normally avoid referring to Russian media here, but at time there is a need when there is a detail completely missing in Western media.

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... t-v-moskvu

It is worth noting that this is not the first such incident. In 2011, the Egyptian government banned the entry of Raymond de Rhone, a Dutch member of the Freedom Party. In response, the rest of the delegation also abandoned the planned trip to Egypt.


So see how the picture changes now? So either your Parliament prefers to stage such scandals, or is staffed with such idiots that don’t learn even from their own mistakes - with all due respect to it. The latter does not relate to MPs - such work is done by non-elected employees of Parliament, and MPs may even have little say in who’s being hired to do this work.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:28 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Just so you know, had I not read about this on a.net, then I would never have known about this scandal. This is a complete non-story in the Netherlands.


It’s a complete non-story pretty much anywhere in Western media. Even though they should have - Russian Foreign Affairs has a statement regarding this:
https://www.mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/ne ... id/4006798

In this regard, we deem it necessary to clarify that the Dutch side was informed in advance that Sjoerdsma’s inclusion in the group that planned to visit Russia on February 25−27, 2020, at the invitation of the State Duma Committee on Foreign Affairs, was undesirable. This was done on January 14, at the Russian Foreign Ministry, during the meeting with the Dutch charge d'affaires to Russia.


When writing such articles, it’s not unreasonable to expect a journalist to take all such details into account, but Western ones deemed it OK to omit some entirely. In this case they made it look like Russians bounced the Dutch MP out of blue for no reason - which is far from the truth. Makes wonder - where is journalism, and where is propaganda.

petertenthije wrote:
As for D66... these guys got no backbone whatsoever. Had you let Sjoerdsma visit the Duma, he would probably have come back the biggest Russia supporter around. Your loss. ;)


Well, if you start “temporarily suspending” sanctions - then they aren’t sanctions anymore. This is why these things are extremely dumb and risky - once you are in that territory, there is no easy way out, even if it causes problems to those who imposed them.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:29 pm

Aeroflot777 wrote:
Completely agree, likewise a non-story in Moscow. News to me only from a.net. Usually posts and news by members who constantly have some verbal diarrhea rhetoric against anything related to Russia. Makes you wonder sometimes what the true intention really is.


Russian side actually does have descent coverage of this, including these details. The reason I gave that Pakistani source is that our Western friends here find Russian media too biased, to say the least.
 
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Aeroflot777
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:47 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Russian side actually does have descent coverage of this, including these details.


Naturally the coverage is decent, I can find if I google and search. I'm saying that it wasn't covered as a hot topic on any of the main channels or publications I read. I didn't know about it, despite listening to the news morning and night, until I saw it on a.net. Hasn't been discussed by friends and family either. That is what I meant by non-story.
 
alfa164
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:36 pm

Aeroflot777 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Just so you know, had I not read about this on a.net, then I would never have known about this scandal. This is a complete non-story in the Netherlands.

Completely agree, likewise a non-story in Moscow. News to me only from a.net. Usually posts and news by members who constantly have some verbal diarrhea rhetoric against anything related to Russia. Makes you wonder sometimes what the true intention really is.

Aeroflot777 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Russian side actually does have descent coverage of this, including these details.

Naturally the coverage is decent, I can find if I google and search. I'm saying that it wasn't covered as a hot topic on any of the main channels or publications I read. I didn't know about it, despite listening to the news morning and night, until I saw it on a.net. Hasn't been discussed by friends and family either. That is what I meant by non-story.


You Russians better get your scripts straight, or somebody is going to be out of a job...

;)
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:05 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It is irrelevant. Not up to Russia to decide who will attend if they invite our Tweede Kamer. Either you invite our representatives, or you don't, there is no middle ground.


OK - have you read yourself what you wrote? This is out of healthy mind entirely. If you are going to visit someone somewhere, won’t you find it appropriate to first agree upon who is welcome and who is not, and take host’s opinion into account? For example, if I invite you and a few other friends into my house, and you decide to drag a few other random people along without even bothering to ask me - will you find this an OK thing to do as well?


Your premius is wrong, it is not a social occasion, it is a diplomatic one. So your frame doesn't work here my Russian friend. Kudos for defending the indefensible yet again.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:15 pm

anrec80 wrote:
When writing such articles, it’s not unreasonable to expect a journalist to take all such details into account, but Western ones deemed it OK to omit some entirely. In this case they made it look like Russians bounced the Dutch MP out of blue for no reason - which is far from the truth. Makes wonder - where is journalism, and where is propaganda.


He was bounced because he says what is going on in Russia and the Putin regime doesn't like it too much. The Putin regime likes yeah sayers like Marine Le Pen or the like.

So don't invite the Dutch parliament if you want to decide who will be in the delegation or not, if you don't admit one, nobody will come. So you perfectly demonstrated that the Douma knew in advance the reaction of the Dutch parliament so they wanted an international incident and got it.

And we got another glimpse in the workings of the Putin regime.

BTW journalism in the Netherlands is top-notch, remind me where the Netherlands is ranked and where Russia is ranked? :roll:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:44 am

Dutchy wrote:
Your premius is wrong, it is not a social occasion, it is a diplomatic one. So your frame doesn't work here my Russian friend. Kudos for defending the indefensible yet again.


People and delegations entering on diplomatic occasions are also being agreed upon. The idea that once you invite a Dutch parliament delegation then you should allow anyone Dutch parliament specifies is totally made up in Dutch parliament itself. Exceptions can be cases when a delegation is coming to an international organization or institution, such as U.N., PACE, OSCE - this is when a hosting nation explicitly agrees to issue visas to all members of a delegation, regardless of sanctions. And yes, EU sanctions do contain exemptions - e.g. sanctioned individuals can still enter EU if they are members of a PACE or OSCE delegation, for example.
Last edited by anrec80 on Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:53 am

Dutchy wrote:
He was bounced because he says what is going on in Russia and the Putin regime doesn't like it too much. The Putin regime likes yeah sayers like Marine Le Pen or the like.


Any nation can do a similar thing - I gave you Egypt in 2011 as an example. And also - Russia tended to sanction those who initially lobbied and supported anti-Russian sanctions.

Dutchy wrote:
So don't invite the Dutch parliament if you want to decide who will be in the delegation or not, if you don't admit one, nobody will come. So you perfectly demonstrated that the Douma knew in advance the reaction of the Dutch parliament so they wanted an international incident and got it.


Apparently, in Dutch parliament there were other people who wanted to visit and talk. When it became clear to you that your group contains a problematic candidate, the right course of actions for that candidate would be to step aside and not bother his colleagues who actually do want to visit. If your sanctioned friend wanted to talk to Russians - there are other opportunities, such as meet them during a PACE session, an OSCE event, organize a meeting in a third country, say, Switzerland, Belarus, Kazakhstan. But there is no need in staging a scandal.

Dutchy wrote:
BTW journalism in the Netherlands is top-notch, remind me where the Netherlands is ranked and where Russia is ranked? :roll:


Who’s doing the rankings? If rankings are done by the same kind of “journalists” that are totally cool with omissions like the ones I mentioned, then for them a quality journalistic work that actually uncovers a more complete picture is a propaganda, and hence not included into rating.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:41 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
He was bounced because he says what is going on in Russia and the Putin regime doesn't like it too much. The Putin regime likes yeah sayers like Marine Le Pen or the like.


Any nation can do a similar thing - I gave you Egypt in 2011 as an example. And also - Russia tended to sanction those who initially lobbied and supported anti-Russian sanctions.

Dutchy wrote:
So don't invite the Dutch parliament if you want to decide who will be in the delegation or not, if you don't admit one, nobody will come. So you perfectly demonstrated that the Douma knew in advance the reaction of the Dutch parliament so they wanted an international incident and got it.


Apparently, in Dutch parliament there were other people who wanted to visit and talk. When it became clear to you that your group contains a problematic candidate, the right course of actions for that candidate would be to step aside and not bother his colleagues who actually do want to visit. If your sanctioned friend wanted to talk to Russians - there are other opportunities, such as meet them during a PACE session, an OSCE event, organize a meeting in a third country, say, Switzerland, Belarus, Kazakhstan. But there is no need in staging a scandal.

Dutchy wrote:
BTW journalism in the Netherlands is top-notch, remind me where the Netherlands is ranked and where Russia is ranked? :roll:


Who’s doing the rankings? If rankings are done by the same kind of “journalists” that are totally cool with omissions like the ones I mentioned, then for them a quality journalistic work that actually uncovers a more complete picture is a propaganda, and hence not included into rating.


I know you want to defend the Putin regime here, fine, you talk nonsense again.
It is clear that the Russian Parliament doesn't really want to talk to the Dutch MEP's, unless they aren't too critical, otherwise, they would not have extended an invitation, Sjoerd will always be included in such a delegation. It is all fine, just another slap in the face of the Dutch, another way of trying to bully, another way to isolate itself.
Of course, the real victims of all these Putin regime's actions are the ordinary Russians, but it is quite apparent that that is not on the mind of the Putin regime, but you do not care about that.

It is just laughable that you attack the rankings for journalism. Pure propaganda trying to defend the indefensible. Russia has no free press, thanks to your Putin regime. But that is the case in any autocratic country. Like I said, you do not care about Russians, you only here to defend the Putin regime, nothing more.
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Arion640
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entry

Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:25 am

Dutchy, would you of said the same thing when Geert Wilders was prevented from entering the UK? (roughly around 12 years ago). He was a member of the house of representatives at the time.
1973-2020
 
tu204
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:36 am

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
He was bounced because he says what is going on in Russia and the Putin regime doesn't like it too much. The Putin regime likes yeah sayers like Marine Le Pen or the like.


Any nation can do a similar thing - I gave you Egypt in 2011 as an example. And also - Russia tended to sanction those who initially lobbied and supported anti-Russian sanctions.

Dutchy wrote:
So don't invite the Dutch parliament if you want to decide who will be in the delegation or not, if you don't admit one, nobody will come. So you perfectly demonstrated that the Douma knew in advance the reaction of the Dutch parliament so they wanted an international incident and got it.


Apparently, in Dutch parliament there were other people who wanted to visit and talk. When it became clear to you that your group contains a problematic candidate, the right course of actions for that candidate would be to step aside and not bother his colleagues who actually do want to visit. If your sanctioned friend wanted to talk to Russians - there are other opportunities, such as meet them during a PACE session, an OSCE event, organize a meeting in a third country, say, Switzerland, Belarus, Kazakhstan. But there is no need in staging a scandal.

Dutchy wrote:
BTW journalism in the Netherlands is top-notch, remind me where the Netherlands is ranked and where Russia is ranked? :roll:


Who’s doing the rankings? If rankings are done by the same kind of “journalists” that are totally cool with omissions like the ones I mentioned, then for them a quality journalistic work that actually uncovers a more complete picture is a propaganda, and hence not included into rating.


I know you want to defend the Putin regime here, fine, you talk nonsense again.
It is clear that the Russian Parliament doesn't really want to talk to the Dutch MEP's, unless they aren't too critical, otherwise, they would not have extended an invitation, Sjoerd will always be included in such a delegation. It is all fine, just another slap in the face of the Dutch, another way of trying to bully, another way to isolate itself.
Of course, the real victims of all these Putin regime's actions are the ordinary Russians, but it is quite apparent that that is not on the mind of the Putin regime, but you do not care about that.

It is just laughable that you attack the rankings for journalism. Pure propaganda trying to defend the indefensible. Russia has no free press, thanks to your Putin regime. But that is the case in any autocratic country. Like I said, you do not care about Russians, you only here to defend the Putin regime, nothing more.


What do you have to say to anrec's actual point other than your standard rant about Russian propaganda and lack of journalism?

He actually provided actual links to Russian sources that provided the entire sequence of events and correspondance between the Russian and Dutch sides with the warnings an all that. You know, the stuff that western propaganda conveniently omits in every article that I saw on the matter.
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Aeroflot777
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:30 am

alfa164 wrote:
You Russians better get your scripts straight, or somebody is going to be out of a job...;)


If there is news coverage available on the internet and on some channels, doesn't mean the story is significant for the larger population, my friend. A non-story is something that doesn't gain much momentum. And no one I know even knew of this incident, nor spoke of it when we discuss politics, which happens on a daily basis here more often than not. Front page news, versus something that skims through on the sidelines for the lame citizen. No scripts necessary ;) The fact of the matter is that some Dutch MP who wasn't able to enter Russia doesn't seem to matter for most.

"You Russians...", who's said anything about being Russian?
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:15 pm

Dutchy wrote:
It is clear that the Russian Parliament doesn't really want to talk to the Dutch MEP's, unless they aren't too critical, otherwise, they would not have extended an invitation, Sjoerd will always be included in such a delegation. It is all fine, just another slap in the face of the Dutch, another way of trying to bully, another way to isolate itself.


You are overly generalizing. Dutch parliament consists of many people and political parties, representing many viewpoints and interests. In this delegation, there were people who actually want to talk and those who would not mind to take advantage of an opportunity to stage a scandal or look good in someone’s eyes (e.g. voters, EU officials, “pro-democracy” grant funds allocators). Here, your friend Sjoerd was one of the latter - and that came at the expense of his colleagues who wanted to meet their Russian counterparts. He could have found someone else to represent his viewpoint to join the delegation, and for himself looked for some other opportunity to meet his Russian counterparts. But he made a different choice. After all, by lobbying the sanctions he made a fair contribution to this situation himself.


Dutchy wrote:
It is just laughable that you attack the rankings for journalism. Pure propaganda trying to defend the indefensible. Russia has no free press, thanks to your Putin regime. But that is the case in any autocratic country. Like I said, you do not care about Russians, you only here to defend the Putin regime, nothing more.


Don’t you see yourself that only thanks to low-grade journalism such as Western your parliament doesn’t look like a gathering of complete idiots who don’t learn even on their own mistakes? Because to insist on something despite a) being advised not to and b) having similar thing happened in the past is not very smart, to say the least.
 
alfa164
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:19 pm

tu204 wrote:
What do you have to say to anrec's actual point other than your standard rant about Russian propaganda and lack of journalism? He actually provided actual links to Russian sources...



Yeah... as if anyone other than Russian trolls apologists believe anything that comes from "Russian sources"...
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tu204
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:18 pm

alfa164 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
What do you have to say to anrec's actual point other than your standard rant about Russian propaganda and lack of journalism? He actually provided actual links to Russian sources...



Yeah... as if anyone other than Russian trolls apologists believe anything that comes from "Russian sources"...


Ok, so same question goes to you that I asked to Dutchy: What do you have to say about the actual statement that Anrec made and backed up with sources and facts other than the usual lame one-sentance comeback or cheap accusation/attempt at an insult? :roll:

Or do you admit that western propaganda is playing you?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:39 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Yeah... as if anyone other than Russian trolls apologists believe anything that comes from "Russian sources"...


I usually avoid referring to Russian sources and prefer Western ones or ones from more neutral countries, but there are things sometimes (such as this advice from Russian Foreign affairs to not include this MP in question) that Western media keeps totally silent about. Hence I used it.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:54 pm

tu204 wrote:
What do you have to say to anrec's actual point other than your standard rant about Russian propaganda and lack of journalism?

He actually provided actual links to Russian sources that provided the entire sequence of events and correspondance between the Russian and Dutch sides with the warnings an all that. You know, the stuff that western propaganda conveniently omits in every article that I saw on the matter.


Do you have any answers to the point I have raised? Or is it just trying to attack anyone critical about the Putin regime.

Now the point raised is moot. And is only offered as a distraction. Secondly, it is important to keep in mind that Russian journalist aren't free and certainly not when it comes to the Russian state affairs. Popaganda is offered by a state, not the case in the Netherlands, obviously, so that's the reason to keep mentioning it because people like you try to make journalism everywhere the same when it obviously isn't.
Now, do we have evidence that the chain of events was like the Russians say it was? Sjoerd says he didn't know he was on the list. So perhaps the Russians are lying yet again? And like I said, it is moot because the Russians should not extend an invitation if they don't want some not accepting it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entery

Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:59 pm

anrec80 wrote:
[After all, by lobbying the sanctions he made a fair contribution to this situation himself.


He did his job, the sanctions were imposed because of the Putin regime's actions. We never forget that and you continue to omit it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia refuses Dutch MP entry

Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:16 am

propaganda media --> please show were the Dutch media is a propaganda media. If you can't you just want to provoke a reaction, so quite a childish way of doing things.

Your train of thought is ridiculous: If something isn't denied it is true. Your guessing what has happened at the Dutch side is entertaining, not a shred of evidence, but entertaining. And your Egypt example, not seeing any evidence about that either, but sure it might has happened, just brings in the case that the Putin government was seeking the scandal not the Dutch side. So it underminds your objective of painting a pretty picture about the Putin regime, which in itself is funny.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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