sonicruiser
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How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:08 am

How would you solve the Kashmir conflict with the following information:

-Both India and Pakistan claim the entire area of Kashmir
-India says Kashmir belonged to them since Prince Hari Singh ascended to India at partition
-Pakistan says Kashmir belonged to them since Muslim majority states partitioned into Pakistan
-At time of partition, most Hindu majority states were ruled by Hindus, Muslim majority by Muslims
-Hindu majority states became what is now India, Muslim majority states became what is now Pakistan
-It was generally expected Hindu majority states joined India, Muslim majority states joined Pakistan
-Prince of Kashmir wanted to join India, people of Kashmir wanted to join Pakistan
-Kashmir was a unique case of a Muslim population ruled by a Hindu prince
-This created a conflicting interest between the people and prince
-Wars over Kashmir led to a split between Indian and Pakistani Kashmir
-Dividing line of Indian and Pakistani Kashmir is called the LOC
-IOK=Indian Kashmir, POK=Pakistani Kashmir
-Indian Kashmir split into Jammu and Kashmir, and Ladakh
-Pakistani Kashmir split into Gilgit-Baltistan, and Azad (Free) Kashmir
-Pakistan gifted China a piece of Pakistani Kashmir called Aksai Chin
-India does not recognize Pakistani or Chinese Kashmir and claims all of it
-Pakistan does recognize all 3 sides but disputes Indian Kashmir
-International bodies recognize all 3 sides of Kashmir
-Both sides of Kashmir are Muslim majority
-Indian Kashmir is the only Muslim majority state in India
-Pakistan says India wants to turn Muslim majority Kashmir into Hindu majority
-Kashmir's strategic mountainous location is important for security and water
-3 major wars and many skirmishes have been fought over this area
-Shelling and fire across LOC has killed many soldiers and civilians on both sides.
-Dogfight took place a year ago where 2 Indian jets were shot down
-India says Kashmir is an internal matter of India and prefers it to not be internationalized
-Pakistan says Kashmir should exercise self determination and advocates international mediation
-Pakistan says Kashmir cannot be an internal matter of India if it is a disputed territory
-Indian Kashmir is currently under a communications blackout, Pakistani Kashmir is not
-Pakistan wants Kashmir to exercise self-determination on both sides
-There is significant unrest on the Indian side of Kashmir
-India blames Pakistan for Hindu exodus from Kashmir
-Pakistan blames India for torturing thousands of Kashmiris
-India accuses Pakistan of destabilizing Kashmir
-Pakistan accuses India of demographic change
-UN has documented significant human rights abuses in IOK
-100,000 Kashmiris have died since 1989.
->600K Indian soldiers are present in Indian Kashmir
-Pakistan's entire army is 600K, part of this is in Kashmir
-India revoked Article 370 revoking Kashmir's autonomy
-Pakistan says Indian soldiers have raped, sexually abused, blinded and tortured Kashmiris
-India says Pakistan is responsible for unrest in Indian Kashmir
-Pakistan says huge Indian Army presence is responsible for unrest on Indian side
-India says China's CPEC is helping Pakistan in Kashmir
-Pakistan says India is following Israel settlement model in Kashmir
 
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Jouhou
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:18 am

Let Kashmir be it's own country, so no one really wins but the region can maintain friendly ties with both India and Pakistan. Is that going to happen? Probably not, but it's a fair way to compromise in a way where the "other side" doesn't win no matter who's perspective you're looking at it from.
情報
 
Kiwirob
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:50 am

Just let the fight it out, winner takes all.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:23 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Just let the fight it out, winner takes all.


brilliant solution with two nuclear powers :roll:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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N14AZ
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:56 am

Listening to Led Zeppelin all day long... you know? du-du-duuum .... du-du-dummm ... du-du-dumm ...:cloudnine:
 
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T18
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:38 am

I really like Jouhous idea but failing that plan.
Evacuate everyone living there to the nation they side with ruling the region, then glass it for orbit, now everyone losses but everyone lives too. /s

Sadly much like the Holy Lands of the middle east I don't see any real long term solutions occurring from diplomacy that will not cause one side to feel slighted or cheated years later leading to future conflict.
“Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting.” ― Steve McQueen (Le Mans) 1971
 
Kiwirob
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:25 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Just let the fight it out, winner takes all.


brilliant solution with two nuclear powers :roll:


So they take out each other and turn there countries into wastelands, that solves part of the human overpopulation problem.

The reality of the situation is if they don't actually have a major conflict over the territory and fight it out, it will remain a festering sore just like Palestine and Israel.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:34 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Just let the fight it out, winner takes all.


brilliant solution with two nuclear powers :roll:


So they take out each other and turn there countries into wastelands, that solves part of the human overpopulation problem.

The reality of the situation is if they don't actually have a major conflict over the territory and fight it out, it will remain a festering sore just like Palestine and Israel.


You never sees to amaze me with your contributions.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:45 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

brilliant solution with two nuclear powers :roll:


So they take out each other and turn there countries into wastelands, that solves part of the human overpopulation problem.

The reality of the situation is if they don't actually have a major conflict over the territory and fight it out, it will remain a festering sore just like Palestine and Israel.


You never sees to amaze me with your contributions.


And what's your solution? You haven't given one, diplomacy isn't going to work, it hasn't worked since the Partition of India in 1947. However the war that created Bangladesh from East Pakistan did work.
 
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Tugger
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:56 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Let Kashmir be it's own country, so no one really wins but the region can maintain friendly ties with both India and Pakistan. Is that going to happen? Probably not, but it's a fair way to compromise in a way where the "other side" doesn't win no matter who's perspective you're looking at it from.

Can't work as the independent country would then align itself with one or the other, either Pakistan or India (or China) and because of that none of the current nations will allow it.

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Just let the fight it out, winner takes all.


brilliant solution with two nuclear powers :roll:


So they take out each other and turn there countries into wastelands, that solves part of the human overpopulation problem.

You are not thinking this at all. Such a war would devastate those nations pushing millions, hundreds of millions, of people into the rest of the world. Thereby INCREASING the overpopulation problem as there is now less land to live on.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
slider
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:09 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

So they take out each other and turn there countries into wastelands, that solves part of the human overpopulation problem.

The reality of the situation is if they don't actually have a major conflict over the territory and fight it out, it will remain a festering sore just like Palestine and Israel.


You never sees to amaze me with your contributions.


And what's your solution? You haven't given one, diplomacy isn't going to work, it hasn't worked since the Partition of India in 1947. However the war that created Bangladesh from East Pakistan did work.


Exactly right--I love the haughtiness of some on here when the easiest, most obvious, and historically germane answer is proffered and met with derision.

Let them have at it. The Kashmir question won't be solved until one side wins, and one side loses. Hate to paint it in such bleak terms, but it's the same thing with Israel as you said. Everything else is just an awkward, tense detente that isn't tenable in the long term.

Lines on maps are drawn and redrawn all the time and have been since humanity began to colonize the world. Those borders move, change, shift, through numerous forms of agency.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:26 pm

slider wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You never sees to amaze me with your contributions.


And what's your solution? You haven't given one, diplomacy isn't going to work, it hasn't worked since the Partition of India in 1947. However the war that created Bangladesh from East Pakistan did work.


Exactly right--I love the haughtiness of some on here when the easiest, most obvious, and historically germane answer is proffered and met with derision.

Let them have at it. The Kashmir question won't be solved until one side wins, and one side loses. Hate to paint it in such bleak terms, but it's the same thing with Israel as you said. Everything else is just an awkward, tense detente that isn't tenable in the long term.

Lines on maps are drawn and redrawn all the time and have been since humanity began to colonize the world. Those borders move, change, shift, through numerous forms of agency.


Yeah well that’s a cute argument until these two nuclear powers ante up and make most of the subcontinent even more unlivable. Ya’ll think there’s a global refugee and migration problem now - just fucking wait till there’s a real problem in South Asia.

2 billion people - be careful what you wish for - we may get it.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
sonicruiser
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:53 pm

slider wrote:
Exactly right--I love the haughtiness of some on here when the easiest, most obvious, and historically germane answer is proffered and met with derision.

Let them have at it. The Kashmir question won't be solved until one side wins, and one side loses. Hate to paint it in such bleak terms, but it's the same thing with Israel as you said. Everything else is just an awkward, tense detente that isn't tenable in the long term.

Lines on maps are drawn and redrawn all the time and have been since humanity began to colonize the world. Those borders move, change, shift, through numerous forms of agency.


Neither Pakistan nor India had nuclear weapons in 1971.

If you think it as simple as one side winning and the other losing when both have nuclear weapons, you are living in fool's paradise.

Despite what most people think, neither country is actually afraid to use nukes. They just haven't reached a point where they have had to use them yet.
 
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Aesma
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:01 pm

There has been several wars between Israel and its neighbors, with a clear winner, yet I don't see the situation as solved.

France had a war with Prussia/Germany every few decades, that sure went well for everyone.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
WIederling
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:24 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Let Kashmir be it's own country, so no one really wins but the region can maintain friendly ties with both India and Pakistan. Is that going to happen? Probably not, but it's a fair way to compromise in a way where the "other side" doesn't win no matter who's perspective you're looking at it from.


Give to China as another province.
Western press can Rah, Rah to no end about minority suppression and what not while China does a good job of governing?
Murphy is an optimist
 
B777LRF
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:35 pm

The democratic way, obviously. Give the good inhabitants a vote with the following choices:

1: Join Pakistan
2: Join India
3: Become an independent state

Chances of that happening is, of course, slimmer than a snowball in hell. As is usually the case with pragmatic solutions in politically charged areas.
Signature. You just read one.
 
TryToFlySomeday
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:28 pm

Well there are many ways to approach this problem, its just that people in BOTH countries are narrowminded. How’d I solve it? Well first off, they have to acknowledge Kashmir is not India’s or Pakistan’s — it’s currently DISPUTED. Until they recognize that status, nothing will be solved. Kashmir should be recognized as disputed. Then, once acknowledged, let the UN decide whether it goes to India, Pakistan, or neither, as intended. Then we can start working on real problems: a climate change agreement between the two nations!
Pakistani American born and raised near CHI (ORD/MDW). Relatives are from both India and Pakistan
 
Jetty
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:55 pm

B777LRF wrote:
The democratic way, obviously. Give the good inhabitants a vote with the following choices:

1: Join Pakistan
2: Join India
3: Become an independent state

Chances of that happening is, of course, slimmer than a snowball in hell. As is usually the case with pragmatic solutions in politically charged areas.

That isn’t a fair solution anymore as the Muslims in Kashmir violently drove out many Hindus.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:59 pm

Aesma wrote:
There has been several wars between Israel and its neighbors, with a clear winner, yet I don't see the situation as solved.

France had a war with Prussia/Germany every few decades, that sure went well for everyone.


Well, on the last “all parties” round in ‘73; the IDF was stopped from destroying the Egyptian 3rd by the US and hence stopped from entering Cairo which would have a real victory. But Sadat got the idea and settled a peace agreement at Camp David. No, conventional Arab has tried for another round. Settled, I’d say.

Prussia whopped France in 1870 and the French licked their wounds in the commune. Round Two ended in an armistice with a German army in France, despite Pershing’s desire to cross the Rhine. The inevitable Round Three was concluded with an Allied occupation of a destroyed Germany and unconditional surrender. No, Round Four in sight as militarism has been thoroughly cleansed from the German (and Japanese) psyche.

GF
 
Kiwirob
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:55 am

Jetty wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
The democratic way, obviously. Give the good inhabitants a vote with the following choices:

1: Join Pakistan
2: Join India
3: Become an independent state

Chances of that happening is, of course, slimmer than a snowball in hell. As is usually the case with pragmatic solutions in politically charged areas.

That isn’t a fair solution anymore as the Muslims in Kashmir violently drove out many Hindus.


Now how did that happen, Kashmir has always been a muslim majority state, the Indian govt has tried to move hindus to Kashmir to redress the population imbalance but this hasn't really worked.
 
jetero
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:07 am

That’s a very long list, soniccruiser, have you been working on it for awhile?

Could you possibly be Pakistani or Indian?
 
maint123
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:35 am

Sonic cruiser has decided to turn this forum also into his favourite defense forum.
Due to the sake of humanity, India cannot allow the innocent people of Kashmir to become independent, as its surrounded by Pakistan, a unstable failed country and a expansionist china. These two will gobble it up in a jiffy.
Question is that India has 29 states with kashmir being the only Muslim majority one. As a plural democracy, can India support the view of a small minority Muslim section, which wants no one from a non Muslim religion to stay their. Hundreds of hindus were butchered overnight in kashmir in 1989 and 500000 migrated to refugee camps in jammu and delhi to avoid a genocide.
Should other hindu majority states in india , usa ,uk , europe, etc ,all follow the kashmir logic and expel the muslims ?
In the meantime since independence, Pakistan has illegally cut their side of kashmir into 3 parts , with one given to china.
As for solution, Pakistan survives as a nation solely on the money it borrows from Saudis,IMF,usa and other countries. For a country of 210 m people its foreign exchange reserves are a pitiable 15 b usd. It receives around a billion usd in yearly aid from uk (creator of Pakistan). And the creation of Bangladesh in 1971 , after west Pakistanis massacred millions of Bengalis , has put paid to the notion of muslims as a separate nation in the sub continent.
Once usa ,china remove their support of this failed country , it will cease to exist. So no point in discussing the future of kas6with them.
Regards
 
jetero
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:40 am

Pretty sure Kashmir belongs to East Pakistan
 
WIederling
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:57 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, Round Four in sight as militarism has been thoroughly cleansed from the German (and Japanese) psyche.



Look around.
The swastica wielding weaponized Clowns are back in German politics.
( Actually you have browned stuff like AfD on the rise
and you have the "we need a robust foreign policy"
people from the CDU/FDP/CSU pushing the "Atlantic Bridge" program.)

You have "Verfassungsschutz" and "BND" apparently still manned by NAZIs that
show more loyalty to their founding fathers ( the US ) than to their payroll nation.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:02 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Now how did that happen, Kashmir has always been a muslim majority state, the Indian govt has tried to move hindus to Kashmir to redress the population imbalance but this hasn't really worked.


The decision divide did not follow the religious divide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir#1947_and_1948
Murphy is an optimist
 
sonicruiser
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:14 pm

I posted this because the Kashmir issue in practice is actually a bigger crisis than the Israeli Palestinian conflict. However, due to the mistaken belief of many countries that the current situation is sustainable, the issue has not gotten much attention. It is only now that tensions in Kashmir are increasing that the conflict has started to get some global awareness as more countries realize that Kashmir is quietly becoming the most tense region in the world.
 
anshabhi
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:45 pm

Kashmir today is the most peaceful in at least a decade. Security forces have firm control, militant activity has been completely scuttled and Kashmir flourishes as a Union Territory of the largest democracy of the world.

India is a secular country in it's roots. I fail to understand why India should even think of religion as the basis of anything.

The entire debate on Kashmir is kept alive by Pakistani politicians, cause their innocent public worries more about fanatics than actual economic development.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:04 pm

There should be no weapons in the fight allowed. Only bare hands. Also, there should be an essay contest. Points will be awarded for mutual respect and accurate history, and full agreement to respect the results and respect the other side after it is done. If they break this promise, they agree that they are a fool and a shame to their family.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:17 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
There should be no weapons in the fight allowed. Only bare hands. Also, there should be an essay contest. Points will be awarded for mutual respect and accurate history, and full agreement to respect the results and respect the other side after it is done. If they break this promise, they agree that they are a fool and a shame to their family.


Why essay contest? Leaders in a cage fight, Free live cast in both countries. Pay-per-view to rest of the world. Split the revenue.
Last edited by dtw2hyd on Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:21 pm

anshabhi wrote:
Kashmir today is the most peaceful in at least a decade. Security forces have firm control, militant activity has been completely scuttled and Kashmir flourishes as a Union Territory of the largest democracy of the world.


Yup, nothing to see in Kashmir, keep moving along folks. :D

Take a look at what Google turns up if you type Kashmir into the search bar. Most peaceful ever, right? Kashmir is flourishing!

Image

Image
 
anshabhi
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:46 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Kashmir today is the most peaceful in at least a decade. Security forces have firm control, militant activity has been completely scuttled and Kashmir flourishes as a Union Territory of the largest democracy of the world.


Yup, nothing to see in Kashmir, keep moving along folks. :D

Take a look at what Google turns up if you type Kashmir into the search bar. Most peaceful ever, right? Kashmir is flourishing!

Image

Image


Healthy journalism is a part of any strong democracy. What exactly is your issue with it?

Nothing is perfect. What matters more is the intentions and efforts to make things right, rather than the result itself

The best thing about your results is they show the absurdity of PoK. Either there's nothing happening in pakistan occupied kashmir, or the govt is not letting anything come out
 
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Tugger
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:01 pm

What is interesting is no one is addressing China's interest in and recent activities and incursions into the region. To my knowledge that has stirred up it's own hornets nest for India primarily. Challenging their claims and engaging their forces. I haven't heard China's activity really affecting the Pakistan side.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
sonicruiser
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:09 pm

anshabhi wrote:
Healthy journalism is a part of any strong democracy. What exactly is your issue with it?

Nothing is perfect. What matters more is the intentions and efforts to make things right, rather than the result itself

The best thing about your results is they show the absurdity of PoK. Either there's nothing happening in pakistan occupied kashmir, or the govt is not letting anything come out


Healthy journalism isn't a free pass to ignore the problems it reports on. Obviously it's going to be difficult to find efforts to make things right when they are laser focused on making IoK worse.

Also, in what galaxy is Indian media remotely considered "healthy?" It is fact free and considered utterly cancerous and toxic even by Indian standards. India has more fake news and internet blackouts than any other country in the world. They just make facts up whenever they feel like it, and are thinly disguised reflections of the official nationalist BJP gov't line. Disinformation in India isn't just rife, fake news is actively encouraged and supported by the BJP gov't. Anti-Pakistan articles do well with the Indian public irrespective of if they are even true. There is nothing resembling any kind of narrative to keep the gov't honest because they will be silenced and jailed if they speak out. Indian media has a serious credibility crisis that makes CNN and Fox look like shining beacons of journalistic integrity.

https://qz.com/india/1570899/how-narend ... ian-media/

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/29/opin ... ation.html

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/i ... 59876.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-46146877

https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... ws/586123/

If anything was happening in PoK, Indian media would not have wasted any opportunity to pounce on it immediately. It is telling that not even Indian media reports on Pakistani Kashmir: because there is peace there. Pakistan's gov't has said that anyone can visit their side of Kashmir, they have nothing to hide.
 
maint123
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:36 am

Always find it strange when Pakistanis like sonic talk about democracy. Pakistan has had all its elected PMs either hanged or couped out by the military. The current PM is popularly called selected by the army in Pakistan, rather than elected . Half of Pakistan history tells of army in direct charge.
Pakistan is one of only 2 countries with polio in the world. Even Africa has completely cleared off polio.
Everyone has airlifted its citizens out of virus ridden china , except Pakistan. They have told 2000 odd Pakistani students in wuhan that we cant take care of you ,and you should take your chances in china.
Just giving you a glimpse into the success story that the OP wants Kashmiris to join.
And their elected serving Parliamentarians put up posters all over the country ,exhorting the beating of the minorities, just last week.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dawn.c ... mp/1532832
Pakistan has reduced its minority population in 1947 from 40 % to 2 %. 98 % Muslim country.
India has only one religion growing and that's Islam, reached 15 % in the last 70 years ,population of others is falling.
Even after 70 years Hindus and sikhs regularly seek refuge in india from Pakistan, and how many Indian muslims have sought asylum in pakistan - zero.
Once the British and americans stop sponsoring this failed strategic project of Pakistan, it will immediately collapse.
Regards
 
WIederling
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:44 pm

maint123 wrote:
Always find it strange when Pakistanis like sonic talk about democracy. Pakistan has had all its elected PMs either hanged or couped out by the military. The current PM is popularly called selected by the army in Pakistan, rather than elected . Half of Pakistan history tells of army in direct charge.
Pakistan is one of only 2 countries with polio in the world. Even Africa has completely cleared off polio.
Everyone has airlifted its citizens out of virus ridden china , except Pakistan. They have told 2000 odd Pakistani students in wuhan that we cant take care of you ,and you should take your chances in china.
Just giving you a glimpse into the success story that the OP wants Kashmiris to join.
And their elected serving Parliamentarians put up posters all over the country ,exhorting the beating of the minorities, just last week.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dawn.c ... mp/1532832
Pakistan has reduced its minority population in 1947 from 40 % to 2 %. 98 % Muslim country.
India has only one religion growing and that's Islam, reached 15 % in the last 70 years ,population of others is falling.
Even after 70 years Hindus and sikhs regularly seek refuge in india from Pakistan, and how many Indian muslims have sought asylum in pakistan - zero.
Once the British and americans stop sponsoring this failed strategic project of Pakistan, it will immediately collapse.
Regards

Years ago I read the Mountbatten bio ( vice king of India brokering the independence process.
Pakistan was a "Coventry" solution afair. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Send_to_Coventry )
Jinnah was painted as more or less intractable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_Jinnah
so the solution was to have a separate nation for muslims.
( somewhen I've seen movies portraying endless treks of Muslims in one direction passing Hindus going the other way.

East Pakistan today known as Bangla Desh seems to fare much better
after they separated from West Pakistan?
Murphy is an optimist
 
Sokes
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:44 pm

maint123 wrote:
...
Once the British and Americans stop sponsoring this failed strategic project of Pakistan, it will immediately collapse.
Regards


While I agree with the rest of what you wrote, I disagree on this point. If there is no functional legal system and investors are scared away, how are you going to pay for the military, your political friends...?
Foreign help often ruins countries. Pakistan is the best example.

Ambedkar published in 1940 "Thoughts on Pakistan". In 1945 he published "Pakistan or the partition of India". This was an expanded and improved version of the old book. He was in favor of partition. He even proposed population exchange and mentioned the example of Greece/ Turkey who did that. Obviously he had orderly population exchange in mind. If people had just listened to him in 1945.

But then Gandhi was patriarch, not democrat. And I believe same is true for most Indian politicians at the time of independence. They were believers in their respective "Weltanschauung". There was no room for compromise or Ambedkar's rational arguments.
What happened to the referendum Nehru spoke about?

If Kashmiris prefer to live under the Mullahs, so be it. But I don't believe in balkanisation.
I believe a referendum would be best. If the people decide to join Pakistan there has to be a 15 years delay to give those people who prefer to remain in India a chance to sell their property and resettle somewhere else.
If people decide to remain in India Pakistan should welcome for 15 years those who want to cross over after selling their property.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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BawliBooch
Posts: 1411
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Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:39 am

A little history lesson: When the British vacated India in 1947, they partitioned India based on religion with Hindu India and Muslim majority areas becoming Pakistan. The British also gave the 800+ princely states the choice to 1) join India, 2) join Pakistan or 3) remain Independent. Most states chose (1) or (2), some chose to remain independent (Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand).

Three large states muddled the scene. Junagarh, Hyderabad and Kashmir. Junagarh and Hyderabad had Hindu majority populations but had a Muslim King. Kashmir had a Hindu King but a Muslim majority population.

The muslim Nizam of the large state of Hyderabad, the richest man in the world at the time, refused join either India or Pakistan and decided to remain independent. India refused to accept this decision and sent in the army to forcibly capture the territory which is now the state of Telangana and parts of Maharashtra, Karnataka and Andhra states.

A referendum was conducted in Junagarh which voted for integration with Hindu India. The Muslim King however refused to accept the decision and decided to merge his state with Pakistan. India sent in the army to take Junagarh by force.

Kashmir was exactly the opposite of Junagarh - it had a muslim majority but was led by a Hindu king Hari Singh. The Kashmir King was vacillating on the question of merger with either Pakistan or India. With the Junagarh experience, Pakistan did not want to take a chance and tried "Tribal action" to take over Pakistan by force. The King of Kashmir, unable to defend his province signed an Interim Instrument of Accession following which India sent in troops to defend his territory. Under the terms of the Accession, India was to conduct a referendum within 5 years. UN Resolution #47 confirmed the agreement.

However India did not keep this promise. Within the year, Kashmiri leader Shaikh Abdullah was arrested and remained in an Indian jail almost to the end of his life. Pakistan saw this as double standards. The reasoning used by India to justify the military annexation of Junagarh was turned on its head in Kashmir! Pakistan fought 3 wars and multiple skirmishes in the 70 years that followed.

In 2019, the newly elected fascist Hindutva regime in Delhi abrogated Article 370 and clamped down on the Kashmiri people. All Kashmiri political leaders have been under arrest for 170 days now. The rest of Kashmir is under a brutal military clampdown with 1 million troops keeping the population under their boot. To ensure the news of atrocities do not get out, foreign journalists have been evicted and there is a complete internet blockade in the state.

What can be done? The international community should hold India and Pakistan accountable for their actions in Kashmir. The UN must intervene, with force if necessary, to implement UN resolution #47. Both India and Pakistan should withdraw troops from the region to allow a free and fair referendum to be conducted in the province.

Can that happen? Unlikely! Russia and perhaps France are likely to veto any action by the UN in Kashmir. All sides want to keep both India and Pakistan on friendly terms because both are huge markets for military sales. Plus India has been dangling its supposedly huge market as a carrot to keep Western countries at bay. Plus Trump is "very good friends" with Modi.

So Kashmiri people continue to suffer.
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 2370
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:09 am

BawliBooch wrote:
A little history lesson: When the British vacated India in 1947, they partitioned India based on religion with Hindu India and Muslim majority areas becoming Pakistan. The British also gave the 800+ princely states the choice to 1) join India, 2) join Pakistan or 3) remain Independent. Most states chose (1) or (2), some chose to remain independent (Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand).

Three large states muddled the scene. Junagarh, Hyderabad and Kashmir. Junagarh and Hyderabad had Hindu majority populations but had a Muslim King. Kashmir had a Hindu King but a Muslim majority population.

The muslim Nizam of the large state of Hyderabad, the richest man in the world at the time, refused join either India or Pakistan and decided to remain independent. India refused to accept this decision and sent in the army to forcibly capture the territory which is now the state of Telangana and parts of Maharashtra, Karnataka and Andhra states.

A referendum was conducted in Junagarh which voted for integration with Hindu India. The Muslim King however refused to accept the decision and decided to merge his state with Pakistan. India sent in the army to take Junagarh by force.

Kashmir was exactly the opposite of Junagarh - it had a muslim majority but was led by a Hindu king Hari Singh. The Kashmir King was vacillating on the question of merger with either Pakistan or India. With the Junagarh experience, Pakistan did not want to take a chance and tried "Tribal action" to take over Pakistan by force. The King of Kashmir, unable to defend his province signed an Interim Instrument of Accession following which India sent in troops to defend his territory. Under the terms of the Accession, India was to conduct a referendum within 5 years. UN Resolution #47 confirmed the agreement.

However India did not keep this promise. Within the year, Kashmiri leader Shaikh Abdullah was arrested and remained in an Indian jail almost to the end of his life. Pakistan saw this as double standards. The reasoning used by India to justify the military annexation of Junagarh was turned on its head in Kashmir! Pakistan fought 3 wars and multiple skirmishes in the 70 years that followed.

In 2019, the newly elected fascist Hindutva regime in Delhi abrogated Article 370 and clamped down on the Kashmiri people. All Kashmiri political leaders have been under arrest for 170 days now. The rest of Kashmir is under a brutal military clampdown with 1 million troops keeping the population under their boot. To ensure the news of atrocities do not get out, foreign journalists have been evicted and there is a complete internet blockade in the state.

What can be done? The international community should hold India and Pakistan accountable for their actions in Kashmir. The UN must intervene, with force if necessary, to implement UN resolution #47. Both India and Pakistan should withdraw troops from the region to allow a free and fair referendum to be conducted in the province.

Can that happen? Unlikely! Russia and perhaps France are likely to veto any action by the UN in Kashmir. All sides want to keep both India and Pakistan on friendly terms because both are huge markets for military sales. Plus India has been dangling its supposedly huge market as a carrot to keep Western countries at bay. Plus Trump is "very good friends" with Modi.

So Kashmiri people continue to suffer.


Question, why is it that Indians in the U.S. whether US citizens or Indian nationals seem to universally hate the current Indian government? Like, it seems everyone hates Modi. Who the hell is voting in India's elections then? Is it just an education thing since most of the Indians we see in the U.S. are well educated?
情報
 
dmg626
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:47 pm

Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:37 am

N14AZ wrote:
Listening to Led Zeppelin all day long... you know? du-du-duuum .... du-du-dummm ... du-du-dumm ...:cloudnine:



Best solution by far
 
User avatar
BawliBooch
Posts: 1411
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:24 am

Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:57 am

Jouhou wrote:
Question, why is it that Indians in the U.S. whether US citizens or Indian nationals seem to universally hate the current Indian government?

I am Canadian! :P

As for hate - we don't HATE anyone. That emotion is a right wing specialty! We do have a problem with Fascism in all its flavors.

Jouhou wrote:
Who the hell is voting in India's elections then?

Once the population has been thoroughly radicalized by religion and/or pseudo-nationalism, they do not vote on core issues anymore. Google for "Guided democracy". India is going through the same transformation that Germany went through under the Nazi's.

This change in dynamics is important when understanding Kashmir. For 70 years, India played the secular democracy card - India was the secular, constitutional democracy, while Pakistan was the military ruled, Islamic state with radicalized crazies ruling the roost. Now the situation is reversed.

The West needs to seriously introspect over where it stands on Kashmir. Will it allow 8 million Kashmiris to suffer just to appease India?
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7663
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:13 am

BawliBooch wrote:
...India has been dangling its supposedly huge market as a carrot to keep Western countries at bay...


Any rumors on how large was the bag of carrots to Euro Parliament MPs not to vote against India a couple of weeks back? Europa MPs made so much noise and went silent.
 
maint123
Posts: 306
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:41 am

Meanwhile- the true picture inspite of terrorism sponsored by Pakistan
https://m.timesofindia.com/india/normal ... 126177.cms

"Normalcy is almost back, say envoys after J&K trip
TNN | Updated: Feb 14, 2020, 09:27 IST

Get Notifications on latest India News
NEW DELHI: The 25 envoys who had been taken to Jammu & Kashmir over the past couple of days returned on Thursday evening, with mixed reactions. While a few of the European envoys were less than satisfied, the majority of them appreciated the unprecedented access to different parts of Jammu & Kashmir establishment and society over the past couple of days.
On Thursday morning, the envoys were briefed on the prevailing security situation by Lt Gen K J S Dhillon, commander XV Corps, following which the group moved to Jammu. There they met Lieutenant governor G S Murmu, chief secretary B V R Subbu and senior members of the administration. Separately, they met a cross-section of civil society in Jammu as well as Justice Gita Mittal, Chief Justice of J&K HC, who is currently ruling on cases involving detentions."
 
TryToFlySomeday
Posts: 357
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:51 pm

Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:28 am

Can we just agree that India and Pakistan need to sign a climate change agreement and a nuclear arms control deal, and call Kashmir disputed?
Pakistani American born and raised near CHI (ORD/MDW). Relatives are from both India and Pakistan
 
sonicruiser
Topic Author
Posts: 869
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 am

Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:38 pm

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
Can we just agree that India and Pakistan need to sign a climate change agreement and a nuclear arms control deal, and call Kashmir disputed?


Imagine being foolish enough to think India would hold its side of the table. They will take full advantage of a peace agreement to annex the whole of Kashmir the next day. As Iran's FM Zarif eloquently says, appeasement does not work in an environment of mutual distrust. If you can count on one thing, it is that you will be stabbed in the back if the enemy gets a chance. Just as the US left the JCPOA with Iran when they got the chance, India will violate a peace deal with Pakistan if they get the chance. You can quote me on it 10 years from now.
 
TryToFlySomeday
Posts: 357
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:51 pm

Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:12 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
TryToFlySomeday wrote:
Can we just agree that India and Pakistan need to sign a climate change agreement and a nuclear arms control deal, and call Kashmir disputed?


Imagine being foolish enough to think India would hold its side of the table. They will take full advantage of a peace agreement to annex the whole of Kashmir the next day. As Iran's FM Zarif eloquently says, appeasement does not work in an environment of mutual distrust. If you can count on one thing, it is that you will be stabbed in the back if the enemy gets a chance. Just as the US left the JCPOA with Iran when they got the chance, India will violate a peace deal with Pakistan if they get the chance. You can quote me on it 10 years from now.

Well, I suppose the current gov in India is quite deceitful. But can I dream? If India and Pakistan both had reasonable governments, we could actually get to a reasonable solution. Maybe we could see a 50/50 split of Kashmir, or even one of the two nations can pay cold hard cash for Kashmir (USA did something similar with Mexican territory after 1840s).
Pakistani American born and raised near CHI (ORD/MDW). Relatives are from both India and Pakistan
 
maint123
Posts: 306
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:53 am

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
TryToFlySomeday wrote:
Can we just agree that India and Pakistan need to sign a climate change agreement and a nuclear arms control deal, and call Kashmir disputed?


Imagine being foolish enough to think India would hold its side of the table. They will take full advantage of a peace agreement to annex the whole of Kashmir the next day. As Iran's FM Zarif eloquently says, appeasement does not work in an environment of mutual distrust. If you can count on one thing, it is that you will be stabbed in the back if the enemy gets a chance. Just as the US left the JCPOA with Iran when they got the chance, India will violate a peace deal with Pakistan if they get the chance. You can quote me on it 10 years from now.

Well, I suppose the current gov in India is quite deceitful. But can I dream? If India and Pakistan both had reasonable governments, we could actually get to a reasonable solution. Maybe we could see a 50/50 split of Kashmir, or even one of the two nations can pay cold hard cash for Kashmir (USA did something similar with Mexican territory after 1840s).

But as per historical evidence its always been Pakistan that has tried to militarily take over Kashmir
Attacked kashmir in Oct 1948 barely a few months after independence.
Then in 1965 it attacked kashmir again with army commandos in civilian clothes(operation Gibraltar); most captured or killed. Ironically turned in by Kashmiris themselves.
Then in 1989 when it diverted its terrorists from afganistan to kashmir,killed hundreds overnight and led to 300000 kashmiri hindus fleeing kashmir. Most still in refugee camps all over India.
Then in 1999 the kargil war when just a couple of months after vajpayees(Indian PMs) pathbreaking visit to Pakistan, the Pakistani army sneakily occupied scores of empty peaks on the Indian side( the 2 armies used to withdraw during winters as per pact).
And I am not even going into the decades of terrorist activities emanating from pakistan government and army ,killing hundreds in kashmir and Mumbai. With the terrorists openly holding rallies in Pakistan with their ministers and generals attending.
The support of uk and usa for stategic reasons is the only reason Pakistan is not declared a state sponsor of terror(remember bin laden found in Pakistani army compound).
Any deal with Pakistan is bound to fail as the Pakistani army does not want peace, which will curtail its privileges and prominence.
You have to watch your back while dealing with Pakistan.
 
TryToFlySomeday
Posts: 357
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:51 pm

Re: How would you solve the Kashmir conflict?

Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:00 pm

maint123 wrote:
TryToFlySomeday wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:

Imagine being foolish enough to think India would hold its side of the table. They will take full advantage of a peace agreement to annex the whole of Kashmir the next day. As Iran's FM Zarif eloquently says, appeasement does not work in an environment of mutual distrust. If you can count on one thing, it is that you will be stabbed in the back if the enemy gets a chance. Just as the US left the JCPOA with Iran when they got the chance, India will violate a peace deal with Pakistan if they get the chance. You can quote me on it 10 years from now.

Well, I suppose the current gov in India is quite deceitful. But can I dream? If India and Pakistan both had reasonable governments, we could actually get to a reasonable solution. Maybe we could see a 50/50 split of Kashmir, or even one of the two nations can pay cold hard cash for Kashmir (USA did something similar with Mexican territory after 1840s).

But as per historical evidence its always been Pakistan that has tried to militarily take over Kashmir
Attacked kashmir in Oct 1948 barely a few months after independence.
Then in 1965 it attacked kashmir again with army commandos in civilian clothes(operation Gibraltar); most captured or killed. Ironically turned in by Kashmiris themselves.
Then in 1989 when it diverted its terrorists from afganistan to kashmir,killed hundreds overnight and led to 300000 kashmiri hindus fleeing kashmir. Most still in refugee camps all over India.
Then in 1999 the kargil war when just a couple of months after vajpayees(Indian PMs) pathbreaking visit to Pakistan, the Pakistani army sneakily occupied scores of empty peaks on the Indian side( the 2 armies used to withdraw during winters as per pact).
And I am not even going into the decades of terrorist activities emanating from pakistan government and army ,killing hundreds in kashmir and Mumbai. With the terrorists openly holding rallies in Pakistan with their ministers and generals attending.
The support of uk and usa for stategic reasons is the only reason Pakistan is not declared a state sponsor of terror(remember bin laden found in Pakistani army compound).
Any deal with Pakistan is bound to fail as the Pakistani army does not want peace, which will curtail its privileges and prominence.
You have to watch your back while dealing with Pakistan.

You think that all administrations of Pakistan are the same? Yes I agree most of the previous administrations of Pakistan, from 1947 onward, were financing terror against Afghanistan and India. However, this administration is trying to break from past norms. Terrorism is down a huge percentage in Pakistan, as compared to 2008.
Pakistan was founded as a refuge for Muslims, but not necessarily as a Islamic state. Jinnah was a Shia who drank whiskey, so obviously his interest was for a secular, peaceful Pakistan. It’s thanks to Jinnah’s death that people have disgraced his wishes by becoming aggressive and ruining Pakistan’s image globally.
Also, don’t forget we don’t want to disturb peace in the West either — it’s bad enough India and Pakistan fight over Kashmir, we don’t want Indian and Pakistani descendants living in UK, Canada or USA to start riots with each other. That WILL happen though if there’s a war. Particularly in UK, but not necessarily restricted to just UK.
Pakistani American born and raised near CHI (ORD/MDW). Relatives are from both India and Pakistan

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