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seb146
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:27 am

fr8mech wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Prove it. .


Lieberman


A guy who went from center right to mid-right is your "proof" that "both sides do it"? okay. I was expecting reading or charts or something.

Apology accepted.
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:36 pm

Airstud wrote:
Tugger wrote:
This is a very sad but very real example of why I do not think Buttigieg would be electable as a Presidential candidate. He should be, it is not fair, but it is a reality.
He may be a good guy, have good ideas, and if elected could be a good president, but I think there are too many of her out there ultimately:
"Oh wait, he's gay? He has a husband? They'll sleep together in the White House? They'll attend events as husband and husband representing the USA? I'll have to watch it and read about it and think about what they are doing for the 4-8 years he'll be president?"

It's not right, but it is a problem for him. Sadly.

Tugg


The reason he's genuinely not electable as President is that he isn't yet 40 years old.

With regard to the gay, I wonder if that's his whole reason for running: To break down barriers. When Jesse Jackson ran for President in the 1980's, I don't think his aim was to actually win the presidency; I think he understood that the real victory was going to be the erosion of institutionalized and even unconscious naysaying. Buttigieg's whole reason for running might be just to start building acceptability for the notion of a gay president.


Being gay works both for and against him, but the real issue IMO is that he is only a mayor, not a state governor. More importantly, he's the mayor of South Bend, not NYC, not LA, not Dallas, not Philadelphia, not Indianapolis, not even somewhere like Tulsa or Richmond for that matter, but South Bend.

Yes, being gay is the whole reason he is running, at least at this point in his life. That is the shiny object that is most important to the party obsessed with identity politics. He would get no attention or have any fundraising ability if he were the heterosexual white male mayor of South Bend and you would have never heard of him. So in that regard being gay is his greatest gift. He will ultimately make a lot of money from book sales, speeches and the publicity and one day he might hold a political office more important than the mayor of South Fork, but not President, at least for now. The problem is the Democrats rely heavily on compliance from the black vote, and not enough of them are going to vote for him because he's gay (no matter how many free concerts Beyonce promises which they'll gladly attend) and it goes against their Christian faith. (Just ask California). Trump would likely win the black vote if Mayor Pete is the Democratic nominee.
 
Pi7472000
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:30 pm

Many parts of the U.S. feel more like the living in the Middle Ages than 2020. Many parts of California have this feeling as well where I live. The issue is many people still believe in centuries old fairy tales instead of science, reason, research, and facts. We need to move beyond religious fantasies and discrimination toward the LBGTQ+ community. Not surprised he is facing such homophobia on the campaign trail even within the Democratic Party.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:52 pm

So much for complaining, the guy apparently won Iowa, though the fiasco hasn't ended yet, at the very least he was tied to first place with Sanders. On polls matched against Trump he is tied or ahead by 1 point https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epoll ... -6872.html

We are very far away to say he is not going anywhere, but so far people are not avoiding supporting him because he is gay, I think perhaps as afcjets said it is his strongest asset he could continuously use. If he were straight white male, I doubt he would be even competing and getting so much support and funding.

That's said, I hate identity politics, he should not say he is part of a victim group in order to advance his political career. Period.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Tugger
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:52 pm

fr8mech wrote:
2) Why is being gay and being Republican mutually exclusive?

Because unfortunately, as I pointed out in a post above, the Republican party is not supportive of people that are gay. The Republican platform calls for only one kind of marriage, it supports allowing agencies that serve the public but have a religious bent, to discriminate based solely on whether someone is gay (adoption being the easiest to point too).

Sure there are plenty of gay Republican's but the world is full of people that justify staying in abusive relationships.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:13 pm

fr8mech wrote:
2) Why is being gay and being Republican mutually exclusive?

The ever popular "Jews for Hitler" analogy comes to mind. Why would gays support a party that thinks they're the spawn of the devil because they like the same gender and that wants to deny them the same rights that others enjoy?

You can be a conservative gay: you can believe in the role of limited government, fiscal responsibility, and a more hawkish foreign policy. Calling yourself a Republican gay is essentially a paradox unless you are comfortable with the idea that you are full of sin and should be relegated to second class citizenship.

You can be conservative without being a Republican. These days, you can't be a Republican without being a conservative.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Tugger
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:21 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
he should not say he is part of a victim group in order to advance his political career. Period.

He hasn't. If asked, as anyone would, he will relate his life and experiences and how they have shaped him and impacted his politics etc. He is open and has never backed away from who he is but essentially he avoids it because IT IS NOT RELEVANT to how he would govern, what kind of president he would be.

I say that fully cognizant that there is a significant population in the USA that cannot stomach the idea of someone that is supportive of freedom to choose you partners and freedom to marry that person, and freedom to live you life without artificial restrictions imposed by others who disagree with that. And that those people think it is relevant to how that person would govern.

This woman is a perfect (sad) example of that kind of person.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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seb146
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:23 pm

We need to discuss the elephant in the thread. This whole fake right wing outrage over "identity politics". This only exists in the minds of Republicans. As a gay, I am not voting for Mayor Pete. How's that for "identity politics"? There are women who are not voting for Elizabeth Warren. How's that for "identity politics"? Republicans believe votes are being cast on the Democratic side based on one characteristic of each candidate. Which is completely false.

Republicans need to stop throwing the trigger term "identity politics" around. It is meaningless to Democrats.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:24 pm

stl07 wrote:
See but here's what I don't get. Those things aren't even closing due to liberal/conservative policies, they are closing because demand has gone down once the government realized it needed to tax negative externalities of production. Simple high school economics. I just wish people would take the time to learn basic economics before thinking a politician can save them. Of course, we are now seeing plants he promised to save close down, he had no way of stopping it, it is a basic supply and demand curve with the companies following the shut-down rule.

And maybe there are people who understand this, but in the face of uncertainty they throw logic away, believing the president to be a fairy godparent that can wave a wand and make anything happen.

I don't fault Trump for factories and mines closing down. I know he doesn't have the power to keep them open. However, there is a thing called "overpromising" and if you boast that you know business better than anyone, that you are the best dealmaker in the history of mankind, and that you will reopen the many mines and factories that have closed down, then it's only fair to judge you on that. You can't claim credit when everything is good and blame others when it's not.

Democrats need to step in and say that the promises Trump made were broken (or never meant to be fulfilled) but that unlike him, they have a plan for retraining and allowing laid off workers to find a new trade.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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seb146
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:27 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
So much for complaining, the guy apparently won Iowa, though the fiasco hasn't ended yet, at the very least he was tied to first place with Sanders. On polls matched against Trump he is tied or ahead by 1 point https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epoll ... -6872.html

We are very far away to say he is not going anywhere, but so far people are not avoiding supporting him because he is gay, I think perhaps as afcjets said it is his strongest asset he could continuously use. If he were straight white male, I doubt he would be even competing and getting so much support and funding.

That's said, I hate identity politics, he should not say he is part of a victim group in order to advance his political career. Period.


Equal rights are being rolled back by the current Republican administration. Kim Davis, a Republican, refused marriage equality to be a thing in her county, denying rights to American citizens. He is part of a group being victimized. That is being proven every day by this Republican administration. That is not the only reason he is running. That is why the Republican notion of "identity politics" is flawed and meaningless.
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:29 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
2) Why is being gay and being Republican mutually exclusive?

The ever popular "Jews for Hitler" analogy comes to mind. Why would gays support a party that thinks they're the spawn of the devil because they like the same gender and that wants to deny them the same rights that others enjoy?

You can be a conservative gay: you can believe in the role of limited government, fiscal responsibility, and a more hawkish foreign policy. Calling yourself a Republican gay is essentially a paradox unless you are comfortable with the idea that you are full of sin and should be relegated to second class citizenship.

You can be conservative without being a Republican. These days, you can't be a Republican without being a conservative.


I think you are mixing conservatives and religious types. You can be a conservative and be an atheist, why is everything need to be black and white? Yes, most conservatives are religious but not all. And if by being religious means not being liberal, that's wrong too.

https://www.pewforum.org/religious-land ... filiation/

Again, I asked, if I am pro-life, why should I be in a party that is unequivocally pro-choice according to its platform. Lets stop thinking that everyone who thinks a certain way, acts, decides and lives the way you believe they do based on stereotypes. I happen to know some republican gays who are very religious, and they are open about their sexuality and they are not ignored or sidelined.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:35 pm

Tugger wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
he should not say he is part of a victim group in order to advance his political career. Period.

He hasn't. If asked, as anyone would, he will relate his life and experiences and how they have shaped him and impacted his politics etc. He is open and has never backed away from who he is but essentially he avoids it because IT IS NOT RELEVANT to how he would govern, what kind of president he would be.

I say that fully cognizant that there is a significant population in the USA that cannot stomach the idea of someone that is supportive of freedom to choose you partners and freedom to marry that person, and freedom to live you life without artificial restrictions imposed by others who disagree with that. And that those people think it is relevant to how that person would govern.

This woman is a perfect (sad) example of that kind of person.

Tugg


Well to me its obvious he is. Why then a white-male mayor from a city of 100,000 people with almost no experience, no significant political background is getting so much support and attention in the national scene? what's special about him than millions of people?

And again a significant population of the USA is willing to vote for him, so much so that according to polls matched against Trump he is tied and in some polls higher than Trump. The man is surging in the polls, the idea that people are not going to vote for him for being gay is not proven yet, on the contrary he is succeeding. If you get a comment from one person and believe most people think that way, that's completely wrong.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:44 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
So much for complaining, the guy apparently won Iowa, though the fiasco hasn't ended yet, at the very least he was tied to first place with Sanders. On polls matched against Trump he is tied or ahead by 1 point https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epoll ... -6872.html

We are very far away to say he is not going anywhere, but so far people are not avoiding supporting him because he is gay, I think perhaps as afcjets said it is his strongest asset he could continuously use. If he were straight white male, I doubt he would be even competing and getting so much support and funding.

That's said, I hate identity politics, he should not say he is part of a victim group in order to advance his political career. Period.


If you watch or listen to him speak, he doesn't make it a forefront of his stump speeches or weaves it into his discussion.
 
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seb146
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:45 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
he should not say he is part of a victim group in order to advance his political career. Period.

He hasn't. If asked, as anyone would, he will relate his life and experiences and how they have shaped him and impacted his politics etc. He is open and has never backed away from who he is but essentially he avoids it because IT IS NOT RELEVANT to how he would govern, what kind of president he would be.

I say that fully cognizant that there is a significant population in the USA that cannot stomach the idea of someone that is supportive of freedom to choose you partners and freedom to marry that person, and freedom to live you life without artificial restrictions imposed by others who disagree with that. And that those people think it is relevant to how that person would govern.

This woman is a perfect (sad) example of that kind of person.

Tugg


Well to me its obvious he is. Why then a white-male mayor from a city of 100,000 people with almost no experience, no significant political background is getting so much support and attention in the national scene? what's special about him than millions of people?

And again a significant population of the USA is willing to vote for him, so much so that according to polls matched against Trump he is tied and in some polls higher than Trump. The man is surging in the polls, the idea that people are not going to vote for him for being gay is not proven yet, on the contrary he is succeeding. If you get a comment from one person and believe most people think that way, that's completely wrong.


Young, charismatic, Midwest "boy next door" type. A newbie on national politics. Republicans keep saying we need fresh blood and people with outside perspectives to lead. Well, here he is! But, we can not elect him because Republican Bible thumpers in charge of the party will never allow a sinner such as he to lead. Adultery and bribery is fine for We The People but gay? THE HORROR!!
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:46 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
I think you are mixing conservatives and religious types. You can be a conservative and be an atheist, why is everything need to be black and white? Yes, most conservatives are religious but not all. And if by being religious means not being liberal, that's wrong too.

https://www.pewforum.org/religious-land ... filiation/

Again, I asked, if I am pro-life, why should I be in a party that is unequivocally pro-choice according to its platform. Lets stop thinking that everyone who thinks a certain way, acts, decides and lives the way you believe they do based on stereotypes.

If the party's social policies were not dictated by religious folks, I would be in total agreement with you. You can be uber-religious, so long as you don't let faith dictate how you vote. Gays can be religious, but I'm almost certain that they would take issue with a Republican official that tells them "thank you for your vote, now you will burn in hell because the Bible says Adam and Eve and you don't deserve protections".

If the differences in policies between Democrats and Republicans were in government matters (restraint vs spending, hawkish vs dovish foreign policy, etc.), then things would be much better. Once Republicans made social policies a reason to elect them (prayer in school, public funds for religious institutions that discriminate, pro-birth policies, the right to refuse service based on "sincerely held religious beliefs", etc.), it should give people pause. If anything, a gay voting for Republican either thinks they won't be affected or recognizes it but still thinks its worth it for other reasons.

Again, the Jews for Hitler analogy: a German Jew voting for Hitler because he will restore Germany's might, regardless of the many impacts that Hitler's policies have on other Jews. How can anyone justify that? The basic premise to anything in life is that you look after yourself first before you try to help others.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
I happen to know some republican gays who are very religious, and they are open about their sexuality and they are not ignored or sidelined.
Various reasons for that:
1. They want their support in order to enact some policy that's not controversial between them (tax cuts, economic packages, etc.)
2. They only tolerate each other, though it's clear that they would do away with them as soon as possible.

It's like a family gathering of uber religious people with a gay relative. They're only together because they're family and feel an obligation to each other. If no religious topics arise, everything is fine and dandy. Touch the subject and the uneasy peace will be broken.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:48 pm

seb146 wrote:

Young, charismatic, Midwest "boy next door" type. A newbie on national politics. !


So this is what makes him electable and a great candidate. Ok.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:03 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
he should not say he is part of a victim group in order to advance his political career. Period.

He hasn't. If asked, as anyone would, he will relate his life and experiences and how they have shaped him and impacted his politics etc. He is open and has never backed away from who he is but essentially he avoids it because IT IS NOT RELEVANT to how he would govern, what kind of president he would be.

I say that fully cognizant that there is a significant population in the USA that cannot stomach the idea of someone that is supportive of freedom to choose you partners and freedom to marry that person, and freedom to live you life without artificial restrictions imposed by others who disagree with that. And that those people think it is relevant to how that person would govern.

This woman is a perfect (sad) example of that kind of person.

Tugg


Well to me its obvious he is. Why then a white-male mayor from a city of 100,000 people with almost no experience, no significant political background is getting so much support and attention in the national scene? what's special about him than millions of people?

And again a significant population of the USA is willing to vote for him, so much so that according to polls matched against Trump he is tied and in some polls higher than Trump. The man is surging in the polls, the idea that people are not going to vote for him for being gay is not proven yet, on the contrary he is succeeding. If you get a comment from one person and believe most people think that way, that's completely wrong.

Then you are seeing things that you want to see. Humans are well known for doing that, we find it hard not to see faces in things that have no relation to such, we just see it because we are sensitized to look for it. You are doing that with what you call "identity politics". You see it everywhere and offended by it because what you define as identity politics IS everywhere even though it is not in fact identity politics (as I have explained a number of times to you. And I am concerned dragging the thread off topic but this is something important to you so I want to discuss somewhat).

Yes one of the reasons he is getting attention is somewhat due to the novelty of the fact that he is gay. That is not his fault, he is gay. But it is not a "normal thing" is US presidential politics, so people "Oh this is different!" And we all love to tear into "different". Being identified as gay, and admitting to being gay and not being ashamed of being gay, is NOT identity politics. And sharing that you are gay is not identity politics. It is just talking about yourself and your life.

And the truth is that it is also everything else he is doing that is actually garnering him attention, his moderate but liberal politics. His mayorship of South Bend (both seen as a positive - he's an outsider but knows something about politics and has approval from his local political theater - and a negative - he only been a mayor, he knows nothing about national politics or real power Washington politics etc.). His positions on many issues that are different from the other front runners but still offer something that people want. He seems to actually be practical in his politics and policies. All this is why he is getting attention. The fact that he is gay just adds another bit that media on all sides love to kinda notice cuz is it not the norm of the past. And again that is not his fault, he is not driving it as an issue (but again he is also not ashamed and not going to deny his life experience as that is what has made him who he is, as it does for you, me and everyone).

And this woman helps prove he is not practicing "identity" anything as she did not know he was gay and was originally then solely supportive of him based on his politics not, what you are claiming is identity politics.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:04 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
I think you are mixing conservatives and religious types. You can be a conservative and be an atheist, why is everything need to be black and white? Yes, most conservatives are religious but not all. And if by being religious means not being liberal, that's wrong too.

https://www.pewforum.org/religious-land ... filiation/

Again, I asked, if I am pro-life, why should I be in a party that is unequivocally pro-choice according to its platform. Lets stop thinking that everyone who thinks a certain way, acts, decides and lives the way you believe they do based on stereotypes.

If the party's social policies were not dictated by religious folks, I would be in total agreement with you. You can be uber-religious, so long as you don't let faith dictate how you vote. Gays can be religious, but I'm almost certain that they would take issue with a Republican official that tells them "thank you for your vote, now you will burn in hell because the Bible says Adam and Eve and you don't deserve protections".

If the differences in policies between Democrats and Republicans were in government matters (restraint vs spending, hawkish vs dovish foreign policy, etc.), then things would be much better. Once Republicans made social policies a reason to elect them (prayer in school, public funds for religious institutions that discriminate, pro-birth policies, the right to refuse service based on "sincerely held religious beliefs", etc.), it should give people pause. If anything, a gay voting for Republican either thinks they won't be affected or recognizes it but still thinks its worth it for other reasons.

Again, the Jews for Hitler analogy: a German Jew voting for Hitler because he will restore Germany's might, regardless of the many impacts that Hitler's policies have on other Jews. How can anyone justify that? The basic premise to anything in life is that you look after yourself first before you try to help others.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
I happen to know some republican gays who are very religious, and they are open about their sexuality and they are not ignored or sidelined.
Various reasons for that:
1. They want their support in order to enact some policy that's not controversial between them (tax cuts, economic packages, etc.)
2. They only tolerate each other, though it's clear that they would do away with them as soon as possible.

It's like a family gathering of uber religious people with a gay relative. They're only together because they're family and feel an obligation to each other. If no religious topics arise, everything is fine and dandy. Touch the subject and the uneasy peace will be broken.


So by your standards, there shouldn't be religious democrats. Because its platform is created guided by liberal atheists.

If follow that, no religious democrats should vote and support Democrats.

Not everyone follows and strictly abides by any party's guidelines, either democrats or republicans, liberals or conservative.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:08 pm

Tugger wrote:
Yes one of the reasons he is getting attention is somewhat due to the novelty of the fact that he is gay.
Tugg


Ok so we agree on this, we can disagree on the rest, but one thing I do note, he stands out to be a 'moderate' when clearly he isn't. The Democratic party is so far to the left that if Obama ran on the same 2008 policies today he would have been considered to be too conservative to be a democrat.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:11 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Young, charismatic, Midwest "boy next door" type. A newbie on national politics. !


So this is what makes him electable and a great candidate. Ok.

Seriously, stop being obtuse and dismissive and not putting ANY effort a thread topic you a commenting on. An easy google gets you:

https://www.politico.com/2020-election/ ... buttigieg/

I want to discuss things, but you need to be able to discuss things and support ideas and research and use resources. Sorry, I'm ranting a bit. Apologies.

Tugg.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Tugger
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:14 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Yes one of the reasons he is getting attention is somewhat due to the novelty of the fact that he is gay.
Tugg


Ok so we agree on this, we can disagree on the rest, but one thing I do note, he stands out to be a 'moderate' when clearly he isn't. The Democratic party is so far to the left that if Obama ran on the same 2008 policies today he would have been considered to be too conservative to be a democrat.


Well I don't agree to cherry picking. Either acknowledge the whole post or don't think there is "agreement". My post had a lot of information. You are again only seeing what you want to and not looking for, actively avoiding anything else.

And as to "moderate" what is moderate? Exactly? It has a very wide range, essentially anything between the far right and the far left could be thought of as Moderate.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
SCQ83
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:31 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Many parts of the U.S. feel more like the living in the Middle Ages than 2020. Many parts of California have this feeling as well where I live. The issue is many people still believe in centuries old fairy tales instead of science, reason, research, and facts. We need to move beyond religious fantasies and discrimination toward the LBGTQ+ community. Not surprised he is facing such homophobia on the campaign trail even within the Democratic Party.


As somebody who has lived in the US for a while, it always surprised me this mindset once you get out of the big "progressive" urban areas (NYC, LAX, SFO, PDX, SEA, IAD, BOS, etc.). It is like a travelling to a another planet that is stuck somewhere in 1960. Even in rural Germany, rural Spain or rural France in 2020 you will rarely find this kind of thinking. Maybe in rural Turkey or rural Moldova.

I also feel it is very mentally tiring because everybody needs to make sure their views are heard and shown and that is why the US gets so two-sided and political. IMO those kind of debates in a developed country (like the US) in 2020 should already be part of the past.
 
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:55 pm

Tugger wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Yes one of the reasons he is getting attention is somewhat due to the novelty of the fact that he is gay.
Tugg


Ok so we agree on this, we can disagree on the rest, but one thing I do note, he stands out to be a 'moderate' when clearly he isn't. The Democratic party is so far to the left that if Obama ran on the same 2008 policies today he would have been considered to be too conservative to be a democrat.


Well I don't agree to cherry picking. Either acknowledge the whole post or don't think there is "agreement". My post had a lot of information. You are again only seeing what you want to and not looking for, actively avoiding anything else.

And as to "moderate" what is moderate? Exactly? It has a very wide range, essentially anything between the far right and the far left could be thought of as Moderate.

Tugg


I would consider the Hillary of 2008 a moderate democrat. What would you consider the Obama of 2008 (back then he was a center to left democrat)?

Fast forward to 2020, and the Hillary from 2008 would be considered extreme right according to the current leftist standards.
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:32 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
So by your standards, there shouldn't be religious democrats. Because its platform is created guided by liberal atheists.

If follow that, no religious democrats should vote and support Democrats.

Not everyone follows and strictly abides by any party's guidelines, either democrats or republicans, liberals or conservative.

When have Democrats vilified anyone for going to church? Since when has the party been hijacked by renowned atheists?

Democrats have stood by the idea that government and religion are two separate institutions, that if you are government official your religion should not dictate your actions, and that you don't get to discriminate in public except if your business is religious in nature...all things that Republicans today don't accept.

Wanting for people to keep religion and government affairs separate is not being against religion. For a self-proclaimed moderate, I though you'd know to make the distinction.
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:44 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
When have Democrats vilified anyone for going to church? Since when has the party been hijacked by renowned atheists?


Well attacking religious freedom is actually something espoused by the extreme left of the Democratic party.

Cory Booker Claims Catholic Schools Use Religion To ‘Justify’ Discrimination

https://news.grabien.com/story-cory-boo ... ustify-dis

Former Rep. Beto O’Rourke came under fire Friday for his proposal to revoke the tax-exempt status of churches and other institutions that oppose same-sex marriage


https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... s-churche/


Which candidate/president said something about clinging to religion? I am not a moderate, I am a conservative, so no I am not in the center. But I am not far-right neither. Just on the right.
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:58 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
So by your standards, there shouldn't be religious democrats. Because its platform is created guided by liberal atheists.

If follow that, no religious democrats should vote and support Democrats.

Not everyone follows and strictly abides by any party's guidelines, either democrats or republicans, liberals or conservative.

When have Democrats vilified anyone for going to church? Since when has the party been hijacked by renowned atheists?
.


Amy Comey Barret during her confirmation hearing for the DC Circuit Court was questioned by several democrats, including Kamala Harris who questioned that her Catholic Faith made her unsuitable to serve on the court. I don't believe the party has been hijacked by atheists, but this is clearly a case of punishing someone because of her faith.


On another note, a disturbing trend out of Texas. The State GOP has blocked the Log Cabin Republicans from participating in the State GOP convention. I don't like this at all. Texas has a bigger Gay community that people realize, and the log cabin repubicans are a group that they are going to need if they want to keep Texas as a Red State.

https://www.statesman.com/news/20200203/first-reading-texas-gop-tables-table-for-log-cabin-republicans
 
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:22 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Former Rep. Beto O’Rourke came under fire Friday for his proposal to revoke the tax-exempt status of churches and other institutions that oppose same-sex marriage


https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... s-churche/

This is something I have no idea why people support: Why the hell are churches or religious whatever tax exempt? They should all pay taxes the exact same as anyone else.

Honestly, what reason is there for the tax exemption? I attend church, they should pay taxes under the same rules as everyone else.

Tugg
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:40 pm

Tugger wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Former Rep. Beto O’Rourke came under fire Friday for his proposal to revoke the tax-exempt status of churches and other institutions that oppose same-sex marriage


https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... s-churche/

This is something I have no idea why people support: Why the hell are churches or religious whatever tax exempt? They should all pay taxes the exact same as anyone else.

Honestly, what reason is there for the tax exemption? I attend church, they should pay taxes under the same rules as everyone else.

Tugg


Churches are a Tax Exempt organization as their funds are mostly going to charitable endeavors. However profit ministers, and political ministers seem to be abusing that status.
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:51 pm

casinterest wrote:
However profit ministers, and political ministers seem to be abusing that status.



...among other things...
 
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:57 pm

casinterest wrote:
Tugger wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

This is something I have no idea why people support: Why the hell are churches or religious whatever tax exempt? They should all pay taxes the exact same as anyone else.

Honestly, what reason is there for the tax exemption? I attend church, they should pay taxes under the same rules as everyone else.

Tugg


Churches are a Tax Exempt organization as their funds are mostly going to charitable endeavors. However profit ministers, and political ministers seem to be abusing that status.

Then why not tax then normally, there are already exemptions and deduction on the books for charitable uses of funds. A church operations and minister don't need a tax exemption to do the exact same stuff as any business. Churches occupy land, attract "business", pay employees, all the stuff all businesses do. For any charitable work, services and material offered without recompense, allow those to be deducted etc.

I know: "I must be anti-religious!" but I very much am not. I just don't see a real use of the tax exempt status.

Tugg
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:48 pm

slider wrote:
Wholly unqualified, but seems like a decent enough fellow on the surface.


Yet you somehow think the piece of garbage currently festering in the WH is qualified? Under what metric would that be? Being able to write in crayons and have an attention span that lasts longer than 10 seconds?
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:15 pm

afcjets wrote:
Airstud wrote:
Tugger wrote:
This is a very sad but very real example of why I do not think Buttigieg would be electable as a Presidential candidate. He should be, it is not fair, but it is a reality.
He may be a good guy, have good ideas, and if elected could be a good president, but I think there are too many of her out there ultimately:
"Oh wait, he's gay? He has a husband? They'll sleep together in the White House? They'll attend events as husband and husband representing the USA? I'll have to watch it and read about it and think about what they are doing for the 4-8 years he'll be president?"

It's not right, but it is a problem for him. Sadly.

Tugg


The reason he's genuinely not electable as President is that he isn't yet 40 years old.

With regard to the gay, I wonder if that's his whole reason for running: To break down barriers. When Jesse Jackson ran for President in the 1980's, I don't think his aim was to actually win the presidency; I think he understood that the real victory was going to be the erosion of institutionalized and even unconscious naysaying. Buttigieg's whole reason for running might be just to start building acceptability for the notion of a gay president.


Being gay works both for and against him, but the real issue IMO is that he is only a mayor, not a state governor. More importantly, he's the mayor of South Bend, not NYC, not LA, not Dallas, not Philadelphia, not Indianapolis, not even somewhere like Tulsa or Richmond for that matter, but South Bend.

Yes, being gay is the whole reason he is running, at least at this point in his life. That is the shiny object that is most important to the party obsessed with identity politics. He would get no attention or have any fundraising ability if he were the heterosexual white male mayor of South Bend and you would have never heard of him. So in that regard being gay is his greatest gift. He will ultimately make a lot of money from book sales, speeches and the publicity and one day he might hold a political office more important than the mayor of South Fork, but not President, at least for now. The problem is the Democrats rely heavily on compliance from the black vote, and not enough of them are going to vote for him because he's gay (no matter how many free concerts Beyonce promises which they'll gladly attend) and it goes against their Christian faith. (Just ask California). Trump would likely win the black vote if Mayor Pete is the Democratic nominee.


Remind me again when was Trump, who you blindly adore, was last a state governor, or even mayor? (the experience requirements you demanded above)
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:57 pm

bgm wrote:

Remind me again when was Trump, who you blindly adore, was last a state governor, or even mayor? (the experience requirements you demanded above)


I don't support Trump on everything, just most things. I disagree with some of his policies/actions, but overall he has exceeded my expectations. Trump not being a politician but a businessman was one of his greatest assets. Mayor Pete is a politician, not a businessman, and he is only a mayor (of a very small city too).
 
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:03 pm

afcjets wrote:
bgm wrote:

Remind me again when was Trump, who you blindly adore, was last a state governor, or even mayor? (the experience requirements you demanded above)


I don't support Trump on everything, just most things. I disagree with some of his policies/actions, but overall he has exceeded my expectations. Trump not being a politician but a businessman was one of his greatest assets. Mayor Pete is a politician, not a businessman, and he is only a mayor (of a very small city too).


What advantages exactly does being a shady businessman going through multiple bankruptcies gives you in terms of being President?
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:08 pm

bgm wrote:
afcjets wrote:
bgm wrote:

Remind me again when was Trump, who you blindly adore, was last a state governor, or even mayor? (the experience requirements you demanded above)


I don't support Trump on everything, just most things. I disagree with some of his policies/actions, but overall he has exceeded my expectations. Trump not being a politician but a businessman was one of his greatest assets. Mayor Pete is a politician, not a businessman, and he is only a mayor (of a very small city too).


What advantages exactly does being a shady businessman going through multiple bankruptcies gives you in terms of being President?


Renegotiating trade agreements to our advantage is the first thing that comes to mind.
 
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:20 pm

afcjets wrote:
bgm wrote:
afcjets wrote:

I don't support Trump on everything, just most things. I disagree with some of his policies/actions, but overall he has exceeded my expectations. Trump not being a politician but a businessman was one of his greatest assets. Mayor Pete is a politician, not a businessman, and he is only a mayor (of a very small city too).


What advantages exactly does being a shady businessman going through multiple bankruptcies gives you in terms of being President?


Renegotiating trade agreements to our advantage is the first thing that comes to mind.

That is Robert Lighthizer a "Washington Insider" and not Trump.

I give Trump credit on China, it has been needed to be stood up to for decades quite frankly but the USMCA, formerly NAFTA, was due to be renegotiated (seriously, it was), and I think trump was wrong in how he unilaterally pulled out of the pacific agreement. But as to actually negotiating, that is Lighthizer.

Tugg
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:41 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Yes one of the reasons he is getting attention is somewhat due to the novelty of the fact that he is gay.
Tugg


Ok so we agree on this, we can disagree on the rest, but one thing I do note, he stands out to be a 'moderate' when clearly he isn't. The Democratic party is so far to the left that if Obama ran on the same 2008 policies today he would have been considered to be too conservative to be a democrat.


Because Democrats have moved past 2008. Democrats are progressing and wanting better policies. It is called progressing. Moving forward. Long term future planning. Not rehashing the same tired talking points from 1952.

For the record, I don't think Buttigieg is progressive enough. I will vote for Warren or Bernie before him. But, if he ends up being the nominee, I will support him.
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:43 am

afcjets wrote:
bgm wrote:
afcjets wrote:

I don't support Trump on everything, just most things. I disagree with some of his policies/actions, but overall he has exceeded my expectations. Trump not being a politician but a businessman was one of his greatest assets. Mayor Pete is a politician, not a businessman, and he is only a mayor (of a very small city too).


What advantages exactly does being a shady businessman going through multiple bankruptcies gives you in terms of being President?


Renegotiating trade agreements to our advantage is the first thing that comes to mind.


Every agreement he has backed out of and resigned to is the exact same as Obama or GWB had. How does that make him a genius? Giving us exactly what we had before?
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:23 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
slider wrote:
There's a reason Iowa stands for "Idiots Out Wandering Around."

My problem with him is his politics; not his sexual orientation. He's actually one of the more agreeable, less abrasive ones in the Demoncat stable these days. Wholly unqualified, but seems like a decent enough fellow on the surface.


And a Veteran - something no POTUS has actually been since 41, and his service was in freaking WW2.


Incorrect. Bush 43 was a vet.
 
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:32 pm

afcjets wrote:
bgm wrote:
afcjets wrote:

I don't support Trump on everything, just most things. I disagree with some of his policies/actions, but overall he has exceeded my expectations. Trump not being a politician but a businessman was one of his greatest assets. Mayor Pete is a politician, not a businessman, and he is only a mayor (of a very small city too).


What advantages exactly does being a shady businessman going through multiple bankruptcies gives you in terms of being President?


Renegotiating trade agreements to our advantage is the first thing that comes to mind.

What did he renegotiate? NAFTA? HA! the new plane is the exact same as before. He did to our country what he did to his businesses, bankrupted it. Our debt is now sky high due to his tax plan.
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:53 pm

stl07 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
bgm wrote:

What advantages exactly does being a shady businessman going through multiple bankruptcies gives you in terms of being President?


Renegotiating trade agreements to our advantage is the first thing that comes to mind.

What did he renegotiate? NAFTA? HA! the new plane is the exact same as before. He did to our country what he did to his businesses, bankrupted it. Our debt is now sky high due to his tax plan.


Exactly. What happened to all the teabaggers who cared oh-so-much about the national debt when Obama was in power? They're the ones now chanting at his rallies to defeat ISIS by creating Spaceforce. :sarcastic:
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:53 pm

NoTime wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
slider wrote:
There's a reason Iowa stands for "Idiots Out Wandering Around."

My problem with him is his politics; not his sexual orientation. He's actually one of the more agreeable, less abrasive ones in the Demoncat stable these days. Wholly unqualified, but seems like a decent enough fellow on the surface.


And a Veteran - something no POTUS has actually been since 41, and his service was in freaking WW2.


Incorrect. Bush 43 was a vet.


He was a national guard pilot stationed in Houston and the state of Georgia during the Vietnam War. He never saw combat and never left the United States.

He served much, much longer than the current head of the Republican administration.
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:46 am

seb146 wrote:
NoTime wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

And a Veteran - something no POTUS has actually been since 41, and his service was in freaking WW2.


Incorrect. Bush 43 was a vet.


He was a national guard pilot stationed in Houston and the state of Georgia during the Vietnam War. He never saw combat and never left the United States.


None of that has anything to do with him being a vet.
 
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:18 am

NoTime wrote:
seb146 wrote:
NoTime wrote:

Incorrect. Bush 43 was a vet.


He was a national guard pilot stationed in Houston and the state of Georgia during the Vietnam War. He never saw combat and never left the United States.


None of that has anything to do with him being a vet.


McCain saw combat in Vietnam. Tammy Duckworth saw combat and lost both her legs because of it. Buttigieg was in Afghanistan. It kinda does. Yes, GWB served in the military and should be honored as such. Just keep in mind he did not see action. He stayed in the United States. He is a veteran, just not the veteran others are/were. And, yes, in war time, I think there is a difference.

For the record, I have way more respect for GWB who actually went through the training and served than people who decided a boil on their behind or bone spurs excluded them from service. GWB vs. Buttigieg potato potahto.
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:36 am

seb146 wrote:
NoTime wrote:
seb146 wrote:

He was a national guard pilot stationed in Houston and the state of Georgia during the Vietnam War. He never saw combat and never left the United States.


None of that has anything to do with him being a vet.


McCain saw combat in Vietnam. Tammy Duckworth saw combat and lost both her legs because of it. Buttigieg was in Afghanistan. It kinda does. Yes, GWB served in the military and should be honored as such. Just keep in mind he did not see action. He stayed in the United States. He is a veteran, just not the veteran others are/were. And, yes, in war time, I think there is a difference.

For the record, I have way more respect for GWB who actually went through the training and served than people who decided a boil on their behind or bone spurs excluded them from service. GWB vs. Buttigieg potato potahto.


Good, so you agree with me that Aaron747 was incorrect.
 
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:41 am

NoTime wrote:
seb146 wrote:
NoTime wrote:

None of that has anything to do with him being a vet.


McCain saw combat in Vietnam. Tammy Duckworth saw combat and lost both her legs because of it. Buttigieg was in Afghanistan. It kinda does. Yes, GWB served in the military and should be honored as such. Just keep in mind he did not see action. He stayed in the United States. He is a veteran, just not the veteran others are/were. And, yes, in war time, I think there is a difference.

For the record, I have way more respect for GWB who actually went through the training and served than people who decided a boil on their behind or bone spurs excluded them from service. GWB vs. Buttigieg potato potahto.


Good, so you agree with me that Aaron747 was incorrect.


And you agree that family giving you what you want like choice military service and money does not elevate someone to hero status.

Republicans keep whining and screaming that people have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and do for themselves before others take them down. Like Buttigieg or Obama. But, when people actually do what Republicans want, they whine and complain about it. Republicans have what you all want with Buttigieg. And you all still hate him. Veteran. Check. Came from nothing. Check. Not a career politicians. Check. White. Check. Christian. Check. Sides with Israel. Check. And, yet, he is hated by Republicans. Wonder why.
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:50 am

seb146 wrote:
NoTime wrote:
seb146 wrote:

McCain saw combat in Vietnam. Tammy Duckworth saw combat and lost both her legs because of it. Buttigieg was in Afghanistan. It kinda does. Yes, GWB served in the military and should be honored as such. Just keep in mind he did not see action. He stayed in the United States. He is a veteran, just not the veteran others are/were. And, yes, in war time, I think there is a difference.

For the record, I have way more respect for GWB who actually went through the training and served than people who decided a boil on their behind or bone spurs excluded them from service. GWB vs. Buttigieg potato potahto.


Good, so you agree with me that Aaron747 was incorrect.


And you agree that family giving you what you want like choice military service and money does not elevate someone to hero status.

Republicans keep whining and screaming that people have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and do for themselves before others take them down. Like Buttigieg or Obama. But, when people actually do what Republicans want, they whine and complain about it. Republicans have what you all want with Buttigieg. And you all still hate him. Veteran. Check. Came from nothing. Check. Not a career politicians. Check. White. Check. Christian. Check. Sides with Israel. Check. And, yet, he is hated by Republicans. Wonder why.


Full stop, Republicans don’t hate Buttigieg. If all the dem candidates he and Bloomberg are two if actually take some time and think about voting for. He’s more centrist then most which I like. The big detractor is experience. Yes, he has military experience, but he’s a mayor of a crap city. He’s a perfect candidate for senate but I think the stage is too big at this point.
 
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:56 am

NoTime wrote:
seb146 wrote:
NoTime wrote:

None of that has anything to do with him being a vet.


McCain saw combat in Vietnam. Tammy Duckworth saw combat and lost both her legs because of it. Buttigieg was in Afghanistan. It kinda does. Yes, GWB served in the military and should be honored as such. Just keep in mind he did not see action. He stayed in the United States. He is a veteran, just not the veteran others are/were. And, yes, in war time, I think there is a difference.

For the record, I have way more respect for GWB who actually went through the training and served than people who decided a boil on their behind or bone spurs excluded them from service. GWB vs. Buttigieg potato potahto.


Good, so you agree with me that Aaron747 was incorrect.


Not incorrect - if you read my statement I was referring to POTUS who had been forward deployed. Try again.
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:08 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
NoTime wrote:
seb146 wrote:

McCain saw combat in Vietnam. Tammy Duckworth saw combat and lost both her legs because of it. Buttigieg was in Afghanistan. It kinda does. Yes, GWB served in the military and should be honored as such. Just keep in mind he did not see action. He stayed in the United States. He is a veteran, just not the veteran others are/were. And, yes, in war time, I think there is a difference.

For the record, I have way more respect for GWB who actually went through the training and served than people who decided a boil on their behind or bone spurs excluded them from service. GWB vs. Buttigieg potato potahto.


Good, so you agree with me that Aaron747 was incorrect.


Not incorrect - if you read my statement I was referring to POTUS who had been forward deployed. Try again.


Incorrect again. You're 0-for-2.

From your earlier post:

Aaron747 wrote:
And a Veteran - something no POTUS has actually been since 41, and his service was in freaking WW2.


No mention of being forward deployed or having combat experience. I'm not even sure why you would attempt to lie about it, since it's there for all to see at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1440541#p21997341

seb146 wrote:
And you agree that family giving you what you want like choice military service and money does not elevate someone to hero status.


I completely agree. But show me where I ever indicated something to the contrary.

Aaron747 was just incorrectly saying that we haven't had a veteran POTUS since Bush 41, and I was correcting him.


seb146 wrote:
Republicans keep whining and screaming that people have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and do for themselves before others take them down. Like Buttigieg or Obama. But, when people actually do what Republicans want, they whine and complain about it. Republicans have what you all want with Buttigieg. And you all still hate him. Veteran. Check. Came from nothing. Check. Not a career politicians. Check. White. Check. Christian. Check. Sides with Israel. Check. And, yet, he is hated by Republicans. Wonder why.


Yeah, gee, it's almost as if Republicans don't care for leftist policy positions. Go figure...

But, for the record, I don't care about race when it comes to my President. I'd vote for Condi or Colin Powell in a heartbeat. (In fact, I'd prefer either one over the goober we currently have.)
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Buttigieg support asks to withdraw her vote on learning that he's gay

Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:24 pm

NoTime wrote:
Incorrect. Bush 43 was a vet.

I used to remember a time when the GOP would hammer Democrats (particularly Obama) for not being a veteran...yet they coalesced around a draft dodger.

N757ST wrote:
The big detractor is experience. Yes, he has military experience, but he’s a mayor of a crap city. He’s a perfect candidate for senate but I think the stage is too big at this point.

If Trump, a guy with no political experience and no public sector service, was able to get elected then anyone can. I'll take the "mayor of a crap city" (who has had to earn votes) over the businessman who has never had to do an honest day's work or socialize with regular people. People clamor for new faces but put them down because they don't have enough experience. But then they also complain about seeing the same old faces (figuratively and literally).

Bottom line is that no one will ever be fully experienced for the office unless they serve as vice-president or in a cabinet position, but by then they're an insider or an old face. That's why you surround yourself with people with experience.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."

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