olle
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Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:29 pm

It is estimated that 7-10 million ukrainan people died in the genozide of Holodomor;

https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

Why is this genozide forgotten?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:05 pm

It happened during the Great Depression in the US.
However I wouldn't say it is forgotten, rather that it has become just a statistic within Stalin's rule. Stalin destroyed many millions of lives with this collectivism and enforcement techniques.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mo ... eph_Stalin
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johns624
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:54 pm

It is ignored because it was only Slavs.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:09 pm

This is likely one reason why the Ukrainians have their battles against Russia today. Even today, Russia doesn't see it as genocide.
 
olle
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:55 pm

And the reason why many in Ukraine supported Nazi germany in WWII... Between 2 evils.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:36 am

olle wrote:
And the reason why many in Ukraine supported Nazi germany in WWII... Between 2 evils.

Exactly. The enemy of my enemy is my friend...

When VE day happened here in Denmark, a large part of the Nazi occupation forces were in fact Ukrainian. The Ukrainians were mostly kept in the dark since the Germans for years had told them: "We are winning the war next week". So they got shocked when suddenly in May 1945 they were told that yesterday they lost the war. It came to fights with casualties between German and Ukrainian occupation forces.

The Danish liberation forces, which had been hastily armed by the Royal Army, had to separate the Germans and Ukrainians. The Germans were ordered to march back to Germany, while the Ukrainians were transported to POW camps in northern Germany on whatever German or British trucks or rail cattle cars could be found. From there the Ukrainians were over the next one or two years transferred to US POW camps in Austria before being transferred to the USSR. In the POW camps in Austria a large part of the Ukrainian troops committed suicide.
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bennett123
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:21 am

I knew something about it already, just as I knew about the Irish Famine.

Firstly, this was before the internet, which is a massive difference.

Secondly, it happened a long way away for most people on here.

Thirdly, the Soviet Union was about as open as North Korea.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:39 pm

My father’s cousin as in such Ukrainian from western Ukraine near Lvov. Polish in pre-war Ukraine, invaded in September 1939, hr escaped and joined the Wehrmacht becoming an artillery enlistee. He wound up in Italy, surrendered to the British Army after a long march with several hundred other Ukrainians. Eventually, after VE Day, sent to England as a “stateless” person, worked on farms in a work camp with weekend leaves. The Red Cross, I believe, put and end to them. He was offers resettlement to Canada, moving there with his English bride. Both still hale and not so hearty in their late 90s
 
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:21 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
My father’s cousin as in such Ukrainian from western Ukraine near Lvov. Polish in pre-war Ukraine, invaded in September 1939, hr escaped and joined the Wehrmacht becoming an artillery enlistee. He wound up in Italy, surrendered to the British Army after a long march with several hundred other Ukrainians. Eventually, after VE Day, sent to England as a “stateless” person, worked on farms in a work camp with weekend leaves. The Red Cross, I believe, put and end to them. He was offers resettlement to Canada, moving there with his English bride. Both still hale and not so hearty in their late 90s

So you have a story in you direct family that is similar to the "illegal immigrants" stories of today. Forced out of their country having little other options, violence driving them, forced to work in less than ideal circumstances, declaring themselves to the authorities seeking asylum or assistance doing the best they can and working hard, and ultimately being solid contributing citizens for the adopted new home country.

Awesome to hear! thanks for sharing that.

Tugg
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stl07
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:43 pm

They like it when it helps themselves, but not when it helps others. I know many, many people just like that
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anrec80
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:11 pm

ltbewr wrote:
This is likely one reason why the Ukrainians have their battles against Russia today. Even today, Russia doesn't see it as genocide.


Because at the same time similar tragic things were happening in other parts of then huge country. Hence to talk about it as a genocide targeting Ukrainians isn’t correct.
 
anrec80
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:13 pm

ltbewr wrote:
This is likely one reason why the Ukrainians have their battles against Russia today. Even today, Russia doesn't see it as genocide.


The primary reason why these battles happen is money. Who knows - maybe at some point someone might offer them some settlement. Another reason - someone wants to gain some votes before elections.
 
johns624
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:55 pm

anrec80 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
This is likely one reason why the Ukrainians have their battles against Russia today. Even today, Russia doesn't see it as genocide.


Because at the same time similar tragic things were happening in other parts of then huge country. Hence to talk about it as a genocide targeting Ukrainians isn’t correct.
Yes, but Ukraine was the breadbasket of the USSR so when people are starving there, something fishy is going on, like maybe the central government intentionally shipping food to other regions and starving the Ukrainians.
 
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:59 pm

johns624 wrote:
Yes, but Ukraine was the breadbasket of the USSR so when people are starving there, something fishy is going on, like maybe the central government intentionally shipping food to other regions and starving the Ukrainians.


It had more to do with redistribution of food within regions - rapid industrialization and cities growth required a lot more food supplies in cities, and sharp rise in production demand. And local authorities overkilled with extracting food supplies from villages in order to send them to cities. Yes, this stuff was done mostly locally, and certainly not demanded from Moscow.
 
anrec80
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:48 pm

prebennorholm wrote:
When VE day happened here in Denmark, a large part of the Nazi occupation forces were in fact Ukrainian. The Ukrainians were mostly kept in the dark since the Germans for years had told them: "We are winning the war next week". So they got shocked when suddenly in May 1945 they were told that yesterday they lost the war. It came to fights with casualties between German and Ukrainian occupation forces.

The Danish liberation forces, which had been hastily armed by the Royal Army, had to separate the Germans and Ukrainians. The Germans were ordered to march back to Germany, while the Ukrainians were transported to POW camps in northern Germany on whatever German or British trucks or rail cattle cars could be found. From there the Ukrainians were over the next one or two years transferred to US POW camps in Austria before being transferred to the USSR. In the POW camps in Austria a large part of the Ukrainian troops committed suicide.


Yepp, those Ukrainians had valid grounds to not want to be sent to USSR. Collaborators in post-WW2 USSR had tough time, and KGB was investigating and prosecuting them all the way into 1970s.
 
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:26 am

Tugger wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
My father’s cousin as in such Ukrainian from western Ukraine near Lvov. Polish in pre-war Ukraine, invaded in September 1939, hr escaped and joined the Wehrmacht becoming an artillery enlistee. He wound up in Italy, surrendered to the British Army after a long march with several hundred other Ukrainians. Eventually, after VE Day, sent to England as a “stateless” person, worked on farms in a work camp with weekend leaves. The Red Cross, I believe, put and end to them. He was offers resettlement to Canada, moving there with his English bride. Both still hale and not so hearty in their late 90s


So you have a story in you direct family that is similar to the "illegal immigrants" stories of today. Forced out of their country having little other options, violence driving them, forced to work in less than ideal circumstances, declaring themselves to the authorities seeking asylum or assistance doing the best they can and working hard, and ultimately being solid contributing citizens for the adopted new home country.

Awesome to hear! thanks for sharing that.

Tugg


Well, if Mexico and Central America are being invaded by an ideological totalitarian state Stalin, you have a point. Poland was sovereign over that part of what we now call Ukraine, they were invaded in a fashion much different from today’s LATAM countries. Seeing as they don’t, you don’t.

To add, that cousin is the ONLY surviving male of both sides of his family with something like 10 total siblings—Stalin was ruthless. His aunt, my paternal grandmother, always expected to go back to the “old country”. US immigration in 1915 was quite open as the country needed labor and had plenty of space. People were medically examined and, for the most part, it was nearly open borders. But, they ENTERED legally and could have been returned, not exactly crossing the border by climbing the fence. The situation, legal and on the ground has changed.

Finally, like all of them, he assimilated into Canadian life as he, no doubt, would have in the US.
 
johns624
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:31 pm

On a related note---I went to a Ukrainian Catholic elementary school in Detroit. My classmates were generally 2/3 2nd generation (grandparents came over pre-WW1) and 1/3 1st generation (parents came over post WW2). Us second generation kids used to laugh because all the first generation parents used to say that they were going back to the "old country" when Communism died (this was in the early 70s). We never thought it would happen. I wonder how many actually went back in the 90s and how many were too comfortable in the US by that time. Another observation was that several of the 1st generation kids' fathers were deceased. I don't know how they were treated after WW2 by the USSR but, looking back, I found that very unusual. In my class, we only had 15 kids, and two didn't have fathers.
 
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:45 pm

To create a Soviet Union or at least a friendship certain events are better forgotten.
Ernest Renan:
"Yet the essence of a nation is that all individuals have many things in common, and also that they have forgotten many things. No French citizen knows whether he is a Burgundian, an Alan, a Taifale, or a Visigoth, yet every French citizen has to have forgotten the massacre of Saint Bartholomew, or the massacre that took place in the South in the thirteenth century."
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olle
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:05 pm

johns624 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
This is likely one reason why the Ukrainians have their battles against Russia today. Even today, Russia doesn't see it as genocide.


Because at the same time similar tragic things were happening in other parts of then huge country. Hence to talk about it as a genocide targeting Ukrainians isn’t correct.
Yes, but Ukraine was the breadbasket of the USSR so when people are starving there, something fishy is going on, like maybe the central government intentionally shipping food to other regions and starving the Ukrainians.


Similar what happen under UK rule in Ireland and India...

Queen Victoria was partying while the India peoples died in millions early 1900 similar to Ireland.
 
tu204
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:35 am

Ok, last post was censored without an explanation. Cool. I went into more detail there, don't feel like that this time so I'll be a bit more brief.

Anyhow:
There is no genocide here. Tragedy, yes. Genocide - no. Genocide is the systematic annihilation of a group based on ethnicity, nationality or religion, usually by members of a different group.

What we had in the European part of the USSR was a famine, caused by mismanagement on all levels (from local to the very top), drought and the effects of collectivisation. Which caused millions of deaths in the western parts of the Russian FSSR, Ukrainian SSR and Byelorussian SSR. There was no systematic targeting of on ethnicity by another one.
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Dutchy
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:04 am

If the Holomodor can be classified as a genocide, is up to grasp. It is very much an interpretation. What we do know is that pre-Holomodor the ethnic Russian part was 5,6% of the population, after it, 9,2%, a strong indication that something was going on. And we still see the problems of that of Russian meddling in eastern Ukraine today.

The countries (partly) recognize the Holomodor as a genocide of the Russians on the ethnic Ukrainians, are: Argentina, Australia, Azerbaijan, Belgium, Canada, Colombia, Ecuador, the European Union, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Mexico, Ukraine, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, the Council of Europe, Spain, Czech Republic, Vatican City and the United States. At least these are more countries that recognize all those Putin-regime created quasi-vassal states and the. the annexation of Crimea.

Personally I don't think Holomodor does qualify as a genocide, I think the bar for that should be quite high otherwise the term itself will be subject to inflation.
That said, it is without a doubt that the Ukrainians were sacrificed on the altar of the ethnic Russians, they didn't care what happened to them, so extreme neglect. In the end, it doesn't matter what label is put on this, we can all agree it was an atrocious act of the Moscow leadership and we can still see the reminisce today.
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olle
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:07 am

The question must be if Stalin used the famine to get rid of political opponents from the civil war - self owning farmers for example.

Stalin and the communist used similar tactics like sending poles baltic citizens etc to gulag and let them starve and work to death. 1.7 million poles and balts got that treatment after 1940s and replaced by russian population.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:39 am

johns624 wrote:
It is ignored because it was only Slavs.


Exactly, just like the Roma genocide during WW2 which has been forgotten about, the jews are more self important with a louder voice. Up to 1.5m dead and even the Germans didn't recognise it until 1982.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:43 am

Kiwirob wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It is ignored because it was only Slavs.


Exactly, just like the Roma genocide during WW2 which has been forgotten about, the jews are more self important with a louder voice. Up to 1.5m dead and even the Germans didn't recognise it until 1982.


And mental en fysically handicapt. Many in the eyes of the NAZI's, undesierables were killed, not just the Jews, but the majority were Jews though.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:57 am

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It is ignored because it was only Slavs.


Exactly, just like the Roma genocide during WW2 which has been forgotten about, the jews are more self important with a louder voice. Up to 1.5m dead and even the Germans didn't recognise it until 1982.


And mental en fysically handicapt. Many in the eyes of the NAZI's, undesierables were killed, not just the Jews, but the majority were Jews though.


The jews aren't even close to the top of the list, Soviet citizens suffered the most under German occupation, a report published by the Russian Academy of Sciences in 1995 put the death toll due to the German occupation at 13.7 million civilians (including 2 million Jews): 7.4 million victims of Nazi genocide and reprisals; 2.2 million persons deported to Germany for forced labor; and 4.1 million famine and disease deaths in occupied territory. On top of this figure you have the total number of Soviet military deaths which is another 10m.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:46 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Exactly, just like the Roma genocide during WW2 which has been forgotten about, the jews are more self important with a louder voice. Up to 1.5m dead and even the Germans didn't recognise it until 1982.


And mental en fysically handicapt. Many in the eyes of the NAZI's, undesierables were killed, not just the Jews, but the majority were Jews though.


The jews aren't even close to the top of the list, Soviet citizens suffered the most under German occupation, a report published by the Russian Academy of Sciences in 1995 put the death toll due to the German occupation at 13.7 million civilians (including 2 million Jews): 7.4 million victims of Nazi genocide and reprisals; 2.2 million persons deported to Germany for forced labor; and 4.1 million famine and disease deaths in occupied territory. On top of this figure you have the total number of Soviet military deaths which is another 10m.


Uhmm, we are talking about genocide here, and the Soviets weren't targeted as a group by the Nazi's. Furthermore, with the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, the Soviet-Union enabled Hitler Germany in the beginning of the war and Stalin sacrificed his own people, so sure, many Soviet civilians died. But no, they weren't targeted as the Jews and other groups were.

So in the end, the Soviets suffered the most under the Stalin regime.....
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Kiwirob
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

And mental en fysically handicapt. Many in the eyes of the NAZI's, undesierables were killed, not just the Jews, but the majority were Jews though.


The jews aren't even close to the top of the list, Soviet citizens suffered the most under German occupation, a report published by the Russian Academy of Sciences in 1995 put the death toll due to the German occupation at 13.7 million civilians (including 2 million Jews): 7.4 million victims of Nazi genocide and reprisals; 2.2 million persons deported to Germany for forced labor; and 4.1 million famine and disease deaths in occupied territory. On top of this figure you have the total number of Soviet military deaths which is another 10m.


Uhmm, we are talking about genocide here, and the Soviets weren't targeted as a group by the Nazi's. Furthermore, with the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, the Soviet-Union enabled Hitler Germany in the beginning of the war and Stalin sacrificed his own people, so sure, many Soviet civilians died. But no, they weren't targeted as the Jews and other groups were.

So in the end, the Soviets suffered the most under the Stalin regime.....


What's the difference, the Germans considered Russians/Slavs sub human and killed as many as they could, so why don't we consider this as a genocide as well?

As for the Holdomor being considered a genuine genocide I find that a bit hard to come to grips with. There were three massive famines in the early years of the Soviet Union

1921-22 approx 5m dead
1932-33 approx 12m dead
1946-47 approx 2m dead

It's more due to negligence and the failed collectivisation policy to blame. Stalin told Churchill that colectivisation policies had killed over 10m people. I don't believe the Soviets really cared about who died, a dead peasant was a dead peasant.
 
Sokes
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:06 pm

Kiwirob wrote:

What's the difference, the Germans considered Russians/Slavs sub human and killed as many as they could, so why don't we consider this as a genocide as well?



I have to agree, and I'm German.

"This plan was developed during the planning phase for the Wehrmacht (German Armed Forces) invasion and provided for diverting of the Ukrainian food stuffs away from central and northern Russia and redirecting them for the benefit of the invading army and the population in Germany. The plan resulted in the deaths of millions of people.[1] The plan as a means of mass murder was outlined in several documents, including one that became known as Göring's Green Folder, which quoted a number of "20 to 30 million" expected Russian deaths from "military actions and crises of food supply."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan

The areas so depopulated were meant to be repopulated by excess German births. My mother is a single child, but her mother had nine siblings.
Russia used to sell grains to Europe and bought machines with the income. I believe without it Russia may have had a hard time to industrialize.
But in the 1930s Russia's population increased and the food surplus for sale became less.
India was also always food exporter. But by the 1920s the British had completed the railway network. Earlier there was always somewhere food deficit and somewhere food surplus, but no means to transport it. With the railway population kept increasing.
I know military leadership advised Hitler to increase armament for another few years. But in 1939 the grain reserves were high. Germany in 1917 had food shortage which influenced the outcome of the war.
http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistor ... adline.htm
I believe this was also the reason mentally disabled got killed. In a war food imports will get affected. Hitler was not willing to feed them.

Coming back to the Holdomor. It's just Wikipedia knowledge, but it seems the Ukraine had a strong independence movement. Hungry people don't do revolutions. So pulling out food from Ukraine allowed for more machines to be bought and at the same time "killed" the independence movement.
It was probably not a genocide as there was no hatres or an ideology that denied Ukrainians human characteristics. There were also no plans to settle Russians instead.

But to say it was simply mismanagement is overdoing it. Ukraine was the food surplus area, Russia the food deficit area. So if it's about mismanagement more people in Russia than in Ukraine should have died.

More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor#Causes
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Dutchy
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:52 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

The jews aren't even close to the top of the list, Soviet citizens suffered the most under German occupation, a report published by the Russian Academy of Sciences in 1995 put the death toll due to the German occupation at 13.7 million civilians (including 2 million Jews): 7.4 million victims of Nazi genocide and reprisals; 2.2 million persons deported to Germany for forced labor; and 4.1 million famine and disease deaths in occupied territory. On top of this figure you have the total number of Soviet military deaths which is another 10m.


Uhmm, we are talking about genocide here, and the Soviets weren't targeted as a group by the Nazi's. Furthermore, with the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, the Soviet-Union enabled Hitler Germany in the beginning of the war and Stalin sacrificed his own people, so sure, many Soviet civilians died. But no, they weren't targeted as the Jews and other groups were.

So in the end, the Soviets suffered the most under the Stalin regime.....


What's the difference, the Germans considered Russians/Slavs sub human and killed as many as they could, so why don't we consider this as a genocide as well?

As for the Holdomor being considered a genuine genocide I find that a bit hard to come to grips with. There were three massive famines in the early years of the Soviet Union

1921-22 approx 5m dead
1932-33 approx 12m dead
1946-47 approx 2m dead

It's more due to negligence and the failed collectivisation policy to blame. Stalin told Churchill that colectivisation policies had killed over 10m people. I don't believe the Soviets really cared about who died, a dead peasant was a dead peasant.


You downplay Russia's role again. Not too surprised. though.

If you can't see the difference between the prosecution and extermination of the Jews, gypsies and other undesirable and what happened in Russia, I can't help.
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WIederling
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:18 pm

olle wrote:
It is estimated that 7-10 million ukrainan people died in the genozide of Holodomor;

https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

Why is this genozide forgotten?

Semantics.
Genozide is selecting a distinct ethnic ( or other distinct ) group and killing those.

Causing a nationwide ( complete soviet union ) famine and resultant death toll is not Genozide.
There are various other tags available.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:04 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Uhmm, we are talking about genocide here, and the Soviets weren't targeted as a group by the Nazi's. Furthermore, with the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, the Soviet-Union enabled Hitler Germany in the beginning of the war and Stalin sacrificed his own people, so sure, many Soviet civilians died. But no, they weren't targeted as the Jews and other groups were.

So in the end, the Soviets suffered the most under the Stalin regime.....


What's the difference, the Germans considered Russians/Slavs sub human and killed as many as they could, so why don't we consider this as a genocide as well?

As for the Holdomor being considered a genuine genocide I find that a bit hard to come to grips with. There were three massive famines in the early years of the Soviet Union

1921-22 approx 5m dead
1932-33 approx 12m dead
1946-47 approx 2m dead

It's more due to negligence and the failed collectivisation policy to blame. Stalin told Churchill that colectivisation policies had killed over 10m people. I don't believe the Soviets really cared about who died, a dead peasant was a dead peasant.


You downplay Russia's role again. Not too surprised. though.

If you can't see the difference between the prosecution and extermination of the Jews, gypsies and other undesirable and what happened in Russia, I can't help.


And you consistently fail to understand, millions of Russian also died, they were soviets not Russians, Stalin wasn’t a Russian.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:28 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

What's the difference, the Germans considered Russians/Slavs sub human and killed as many as they could, so why don't we consider this as a genocide as well?

As for the Holdomor being considered a genuine genocide I find that a bit hard to come to grips with. There were three massive famines in the early years of the Soviet Union

1921-22 approx 5m dead
1932-33 approx 12m dead
1946-47 approx 2m dead

It's more due to negligence and the failed collectivisation policy to blame. Stalin told Churchill that colectivisation policies had killed over 10m people. I don't believe the Soviets really cared about who died, a dead peasant was a dead peasant.


You downplay Russia's role again. Not too surprised. though.

If you can't see the difference between the prosecution and extermination of the Jews, gypsies and other undesirable and what happened in Russia, I can't help.



And you consistently fail to understand, millions of Russian also died, they were soviets not Russians, Stalin wasn’t a Russian.


Genocide isn't defined by how many people died, but the reason behind it, why people died and who decided when and what. Perhaps you failed to read it correctly, I said I don't think this should be defined as a genocide, it is a crime against humanity, but not genocide.

Russia was the biggest and most important state of the USSR, hence it is also called Russia back then. The same as with. England vs Great Britain, or Holland vs the Netherlands.

BTW you tried to put it on the same level, the Jew prosecution and the number of death in the old Soviet Union. It just isn't and it is quite bad taste - to say it quite mildly - to draw a comparison between the two like you did. Blame Josef Stalin for that.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:47 am

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You downplay Russia's role again. Not too surprised. though.

If you can't see the difference between the prosecution and extermination of the Jews, gypsies and other undesirable and what happened in Russia, I can't help.



And you consistently fail to understand, millions of Russian also died, they were soviets not Russians, Stalin wasn’t a Russian.


Genocide isn't defined by how many people died, but the reason behind it, why people died and who decided when and what. Perhaps you failed to read it correctly, I said I don't think this should be defined as a genocide, it is a crime against humanity, but not genocide.

Russia was the biggest and most important state of the USSR, hence it is also called Russia back then. The same as with. England vs Great Britain, or Holland vs the Netherlands.

BTW you tried to put it on the same level, the Jew prosecution and the number of death in the old Soviet Union. It just isn't and it is quite bad taste - to say it quite mildly - to draw a comparison between the two like you did. Blame Josef Stalin for that.


Go back and learn how to read, where did I draw any comparison between Stalin and the holocaust? My comparison was between the Ukrainian famine and the other major famines in the Soviet Union.

My previous comparison was between the German extermination of Russians/Slavs and Jews because it was carried out by the same people, far more Russians/Slavs were killed by the Germans than Jews. The German plan was to depopulate the European side of Russia and repopulate it with Germans, if that isn't genocide then I don't know what is.

Two separate comparisons, neither of them were linked.
 
tu204
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:33 am

See, as Dutchy showed this Holodomor debate is being thrown out there for purely political purposes. Without bothering to look into the situation in the whole USSR at the time.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:00 am

tu204 wrote:
See, as Dutchy showed this Holodomor debate is being thrown out there for purely political purposes. Without bothering to look into the situation in the whole USSR at the time.


What did I show? I gave my oppinion that the Holodomor isn't genocide per the definition of genocide. Stalin did commit an act against humanity and specificly against the Ukrainians, much more died there then in the rest of the USSR. You can see it at the numbers I gave you pre-Holodomor percentage of Russians in the Ukraine and post-Holodomor.

The only politics introduced in this, was by our Russian adepts here, trying to soften the atrocities commited by the USSR. That's the reason why the debate was brothened to WWII to show that the USSR citizens were also very pittyful. Russians should live up to their history and what has happened in their name. Russia sees itself as the succesor of the USSR, so this is a black page in their history, so they should own up to it and not come up with various excusses.

Don't put any words in my mouth.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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SQ22
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:01 am

Please keep this thread on topic, thanks.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Holodomor the forgotten genozide

Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:29 am

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
See, as Dutchy showed this Holodomor debate is being thrown out there for purely political purposes. Without bothering to look into the situation in the whole USSR at the time.


What did I show? I gave my oppinion that the Holodomor isn't genocide per the definition of genocide. Stalin did commit an act against humanity and specificly against the Ukrainians, much more died there then in the rest of the USSR. You can see it at the numbers I gave you pre-Holodomor percentage of Russians in the Ukraine and post-Holodomor.

The only politics introduced in this, was by our Russian adepts here, trying to soften the atrocities commited by the USSR. That's the reason why the debate was brothened to WWII to show that the USSR citizens were also very pittyful. Russians should live up to their history and what has happened in their name. Russia sees itself as the succesor of the USSR, so this is a black page in their history, so they should own up to it and not come up with various excusses.

Don't put any words in my mouth.


As you have clearly stated atrocities committed by the USSR, not Russia, all of the former states of the USSR are successors to the USSR, as such they are all equally responsible for events that happened.

As a percentage of population far more Kazakhs died than Ukrainians, 2m Kazakhs, 40% of their population, 3,5m Ukranians died which isn't even close to 40%.

This is the point it wasn't specifically targeted at Ukrainians, Ukraine just happened to have the most fertile land, collectivization was enacted over the entire Soviet Union, there was no Russia, no Ukraine, no Belorussia, no Estonia.................. Ukrainians were enthusiastic Soviets just like parts of the former Russian Empire, there were three Presidents of the Soviet Union who were Ukrainian.

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