yak42
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Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:46 am

A story has emerged of a case where Tesla has ,without warning, remotely disabled the "Enhanced Autopilot" and "Full Self Driving Mode" from a used Model S after a dealer, who had purchased the vehicle directly from Tesla at auction with the software included, sold it on to a customer.

The new owner contacted Tesla's customer support who informed him that he needs to buy the software directly from them as the new owner. They offered to re-enable the software for USD$8000.
https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/6/21127243/tesla-model-s-autopilot-disabled-remotely-used-car-update

Is this the way it's going to be with used cars now? What are your thoughts about this?
 
anshabhi
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:27 am

Did Tesla mention this in their TnC when selling the car to the dealer? If yes, the dealer should compensate the buyer.
If not, a lawsuit is on its way for Tesla.

I personally believe Autopilot is a major reason for Tesla's attractiveness. There won't be any reason to buy a 7-year-old Telsa with depleted batteries otherwise, and the resale value of Teslas will crash.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:28 am

Could also cause the emergence of a Tesla black market for torrented software.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:51 am

Tesla is slowly becoming a software company.
Just like with smartphones and computers, trading of software code and IP is what Tesla and other manufacturers will start to lean on for revenue going forward. As in the IT world, there is little margins in the hardware, and software is slowly pervading new cars, especially electric ones.

Teslas are basically smartphones on wheels...
They are a Silicon Valley company after all.

From a shareholder perspective, I'd say it's a smart move. As a consumer... not so sure.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Redd
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:02 am

sonicruiser wrote:
Could also cause the emergence of a Tesla black market for torrented software.


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_w ... DuZT2ct4SA

Rich Rebuilds is doing all this stuff. Great channel.
 
yak42
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:09 pm

Ah thanks Redd! Forgot about his channel. I wonder if he's commented on the story. I haven't looked there since he was on Vice or wherever it was they did a piece on him.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:16 pm

One more to reason to buy a restored car from the ‘80s. I’m looking at restored Mercedes—tough cars and no BS software in them. They also a real spare tire. About once every couple of years the spare has rescued me far from home,
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:59 pm

I think Tesla is going to have to sell their advanced software on a subscription and mileage/time basis. I will be in my early 80s by the time my place in line comes up. I will not pay for full autonomous if I cannot sell/give the car away with that feature included.

ps - government will not stand by idly if the various builders of software for autonomous driving do not somewhat cooperate in setting standards, sharing certain advancements that save lives. Mercedes/Volvo established a pattern for this which I always admired. They pioneered several safety features which were very expensive and only on high end cars, but which amazingly quickly became available often standard on mass produced cars.
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DL717
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:04 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
Could also cause the emergence of a Tesla black market for torrented software.


What could possibly go wrong? :?
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:27 pm

I know that it's not possible (or rather, there are limits) to transfer free supercharging when selling a Model S. That's known and I feel it's understandable, you have to wonder though if Tesla might not lose sales if for example an early adopter wants the latest Tesla but doesn't want to lose that perk he got with his early Model S.

I think something similar is happening here, where Autopilot used to be free, and now it's far from free, and the price fluctuates all the time. However, I don't think it's a smart move from Tesla, and things could change.

I read a much better story, that Tesla is replacing, for free, older Autopilot hardware with newer one in older cars.

Tesla should have a more logical approach to this, maybe a monthly payment for Autopilot with unlimited upgrades ? 100$/month, let's say ?

Or in that case letting the user have the older autopilot, and not providing newer hardware/software for free, but not for 8000$ either ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:51 pm

Didn't Musk release these under open source license?

Anyway, without these software vehicle will be much safer. I would buy without software for $8K less or even better if Musk want to sell DIY kits. I am sure my build will have better quality than GigaTent build.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:55 pm

Ten percent of $8000 is, obviously $800 or about $65 a month. That would be a good reliable return on investment for any manufacturer.
As the product gets better that figure could go up. I do not drive a whole lot, well under 500 miles a month. I might start driving more when my vehicle is available and mostly auto-pilot driven, but not all that much. FSD could happen a whole lot quicker, and then, hasn't Musk noised something about making our cars available to others (taxi, if you will)? That could be the ultimate game changer.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Redd
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:07 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
One more to reason to buy a restored car from the ‘80s. I’m looking at restored Mercedes—tough cars and no BS software in them. They also a real spare tire. About once every couple of years the spare has rescued me far from home,



I generally agree with that sentiment, but cars from the 80s are death traps compared to modern automobiles. I'd feel hesitant to stick my family into an 80s (or earlier) car, especially at the highway speeds we drive at in Poland or Germany.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:55 pm

Surely the customer brought the car, "as is" and then a thrid party came along and took something from it. Theft?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:15 pm

This is the same reason I won't buy "streaming" music or movies, ever. Only on disc, then I rip them to my online storage (or the streaming version comes included in the sale). Because you don't always own the song, usually juts the "right" to a licsence to use it based on the terms of the sale, and you can't use it across other services as easily. (Also for music CD's in genaral offer supperior sound do to better bit rate than what you buy streaming-wise"

I want the hard product.

But of course most all software products are now going from the "hard sale" and moving to a subscription model where you constantly are paying to "own" the product.

While I get it for Tesla to do this, I hate that it is being done. We'll see what happens going forward. Tesla famously has cut out the dealer/dealership in their sales model. So now they are pushing to retain all control of the vehicle (its important options at least) after the sale as well. In my opinion if they are going to succeed, they are going to have to cut their initial sale price significantly to allow for the ability to re-sell the option again later. I think that will work very well actually, boosting initial sales of the options then creating a revenue stream that will continue later. But we'll see what happens, I certainly can't pretend to know what they will do.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
M564038
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:06 pm

So this is what happened:

1/Customer buys car with FSD, returns it after he find fault.
2/Customer gets new car, FSD is transfered to the new car.
3/Someone buys Car#1 that does no longer have FSD because the license is transferred to car#2, but the buyer is wrongfully under the impression Car#1 should have it.


I see no problem with this, simply a case of the deler advertising Car#1 with the wrong equipment list, but the customer chose to blame Tesla.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:38 pm

OK, then it's OK.

Tugger : I'm like you for media content. I also don't use cloud storage as my main storage, only as a convenient way to transfer files to others.

I bought a new smartphone recently and my first criteria was the support of an SD card so that I can put a lot of music in it, the phone has 128GB built-in that I keep for apps and associated files, and I put a 512GB card in for media.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:59 pm

M564038 wrote:
So this is what happened:

1/Customer buys car with FSD, returns it after he find fault.
2/Customer gets new car, FSD is transfered to the new car.
3/Someone buys Car#1 that does no longer have FSD because the license is transferred to car#2, but the buyer is wrongfully under the impression Car#1 should have it.


I see no problem with this, simply a case of the deler advertising Car#1 with the wrong equipment list, but the customer chose to blame Tesla.


If I did not know about FSD ins and outs of ownership, and had not been told it had been transferred, I might have blamed Tesla too. The dealer made the error as customer likely now knows. I suspect the dealer should negotiate with the buyer and subsidize another license for FSD. I had a likely 100K mile odometer roll back with a used car I purchased. Three years later discovered it. Toyota was crappo to deal with, and somehow original dealer did not respond. But when we established communications we negotiated a satisfactory resolution - to both of our surprise. Learning lesson: the word does not always get through to an appropriate person to negotiate - do not give up after the first or second failure.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
kalvado
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:59 pm

Dealer has a Monroney sticker (standard form describing a used car) from auction showing those features priced for same $8k and wrapped into the price of a car. They are listed along with non-removable features, like "multicoat paint" which is also priced extra and wrapped into the total
There is no indication that dealer paid less than the price on that sticker.
So my take is that dealer actually paid for those features.
see https://jalopnik.com/tesla-remotely-rem ... 0941196331 for original report.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:28 am

Why does this feel like a car company taking the opportunity of a service to remove my car radio because it was an "option" that the previous car owner selected before returning it under lemon law buyback?

While the FSD is software, it should be treated as a physical feature and as such Tesla should not have the right to deactivate it after the car was already sold. If they want to do so, then they should have deactivated the feature BEFORE they sold the car. If they didn't then too bad. Why should I be responsible for their screw up?
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
tu204
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:15 am

This is just BS. Retroactively disable features that were active on a car and charge $8k to re-enable? Get real.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Olddog
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:03 am

It is for the very same reason I never bought a Kindle, because Amazon can decide to remove a book from your device for whatever reason.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:32 am

Tugger wrote:

While I get it for Tesla to do this, I hate that it is being done. We'll see what happens going forward. Tesla famously has cut out the dealer/dealership in their sales model. So now they are pushing to retain all control of the vehicle (its important options at least) after the sale as well. In my opinion if they are going to succeed, they are going to have to cut their initial sale price significantly to allow for the ability to re-sell the option again later. I think that will work very well actually, boosting initial sales of the options then creating a revenue stream that will continue later. But we'll see what happens, I certainly can't pretend to know what they will do.

Tugg


They might have cut the dealer out in the US but they are building a dealer network in Norway, there is a new Tesla dealer and service centre opening where I live in the next couple of months.
 
kalvado
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:54 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:

While I get it for Tesla to do this, I hate that it is being done. We'll see what happens going forward. Tesla famously has cut out the dealer/dealership in their sales model. So now they are pushing to retain all control of the vehicle (its important options at least) after the sale as well. In my opinion if they are going to succeed, they are going to have to cut their initial sale price significantly to allow for the ability to re-sell the option again later. I think that will work very well actually, boosting initial sales of the options then creating a revenue stream that will continue later. But we'll see what happens, I certainly can't pretend to know what they will do.

Tugg


They might have cut the dealer out in the US but they are building a dealer network in Norway, there is a new Tesla dealer and service centre opening where I live in the next couple of months.

Who owns that? In US this is about cutting out independent third party dealer. If I remember correctly, manufacturer cannot own dealership - that is to protect small independent dealers from uneven competition.
If Norway network is owned by Tesla directly, this is exactly the thing they want but cannot get in us
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:02 am

kalvado wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:

While I get it for Tesla to do this, I hate that it is being done. We'll see what happens going forward. Tesla famously has cut out the dealer/dealership in their sales model. So now they are pushing to retain all control of the vehicle (its important options at least) after the sale as well. In my opinion if they are going to succeed, they are going to have to cut their initial sale price significantly to allow for the ability to re-sell the option again later. I think that will work very well actually, boosting initial sales of the options then creating a revenue stream that will continue later. But we'll see what happens, I certainly can't pretend to know what they will do.

Tugg


They might have cut the dealer out in the US but they are building a dealer network in Norway, there is a new Tesla dealer and service centre opening where I live in the next couple of months.

Who owns that? In US this is about cutting out independent third party dealer. If I remember correctly, manufacturer cannot own dealership - that is to protect small independent dealers from uneven competition.
If Norway network is owned by Tesla directly, this is exactly the thing they want but cannot get in us


I think the network is Tesla owned but I not 100% certain.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:14 pm

Meanwhile Apple, a trillion dollar company, can own its stores. Makes sense, not !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:40 pm

It depends on who misled whom in writing. If Tesla misled the dealer, in writing, then Tesla should pay. If the dealer knew full well that this was not an FSD car anymore, they should pay.
I'll bet the customer who in effect "returned" the FSD car and transferred the software to another car did not notify the dealer. In that case, everyone is pretty innocent here and Tesla needs to think of a solution for this. The dealer may not have known that this car was slated for FSD deletion. But that should be made very clear before Tesla credits that software to another car.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:45 pm

It may well be the original owner who did the misleading. It has been known to happen.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
kalvado
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:41 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
It may well be the original owner who did the misleading. It has been known to happen.

Original owner is out of the loop. He sold the car to Tesla, under whatever conditions; and Tesla owns the car from that point. Tesla knows (or should know) how things work from that point.
Looks like this is about misunderstanding within the company, when resold car was treated differently by different departments - but this doesn't remove any responsibility from Tesla as a single entity.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:56 pm

kalvado wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
It may well be the original owner who did the misleading. It has been known to happen.

Original owner is out of the loop. He sold the car to Tesla, under whatever conditions; and Tesla owns the car from that point. Tesla knows (or should know) how things work from that point.
Looks like this is about misunderstanding within the company, when resold car was treated differently by different departments - but this doesn't remove any responsibility from Tesla as a single entity.


Correct, if Tesla sold the car as a FSD car then it needs to deliver what it sold. If it charged the wrong price, S.O.L., and damaging the customer's car is actionable.
 
bhill
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:06 pm

I think this is bullshit...UNLESS Tesla specified that the LICENSE to use the software from the original sale is non-transferable. If it does not so stipulate, Tesla is trying to get paid more than once for that same license. If the dealer did not specify AS-IS, this buyer is screwed..
Carpe Pices
 
M564038
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:47 pm

The car was returned to Tesla, and the customer(#1) got a different car with FREE FSD. This was becuse it was the same FSD license transferred.

So now the first car doesn’t have FSD anymore.
Simple.

If you return your new Apple computer because of whatever, the next owner will have the same OS, but he will not have your Logic Pro license you already innstalled on your next computer, bound to your apple-account.

If you return your PC, the next owner will not recieve your license of word or photoshop that you installed on your next computer.

If you move to a new house, the new owner of the old house does not get your vinyl collection.
If you want to keep tour vinyl collection, but also want the next owner of your house to have the same collection, one of those involved will have to buy it over again.

If the customer was promised the record collection, then obviously whomever promised him the record-collection will have to fork out for it.

Banal stuff!

Now, I am not a big fan of license transfer limitations, and software company greed, but FSD does normally follow the car.

The only thing that doesn’t follow your used Tesla is unlimited life-long free supercharging on old Model Ss, IF you sell your car back to Tesla, which then resells it.



bhill wrote:
I think this is bullshit...UNLESS Tesla specified that the LICENSE to use the software from the original sale is non-transferable. If it does not so stipulate, Tesla is trying to get paid more than once for that same license. If the dealer did not specify AS-IS, this buyer is screwed..
 
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Tugger
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:58 pm

Now I wonder.... What if you trade in your old Model S for a new Model S... can you transfer your FSD to the new car?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
yak42
Topic Author
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:45 am

Tugger wrote:
Now I wonder.... What if you trade in your old Model S for a new Model S... can you transfer your FSD to the new car?

Tugg

Good question! I wonder... I'm sure Tesla will try to make you buy it again somehow.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:37 pm

Redd wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
One more to reason to buy a restored car from the ‘80s. I’m looking at restored Mercedes—tough cars and no BS software in them. They also a real spare tire. About once every couple of years the spare has rescued me far from home,



I generally agree with that sentiment, but cars from the 80s are death traps compared to modern automobiles. I'd feel hesitant to stick my family into an 80s (or earlier) car, especially at the highway speeds we drive at in Poland or Germany.


Don’t have an accident, I guess. I drove a lot in the 80s without a worry.
 
FatCat
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:39 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
Could also cause the emergence of a Tesla black market for torrented software.

I imagine torrenting down the software, installing it, and suddenly a German porn film being played on the center console... damn you torrent!
Aeroplane flies high
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WIederling
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:34 pm

FatCat wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
Could also cause the emergence of a Tesla black market for torrented software.

I imagine torrenting down the software, installing it, and suddenly a German porn film being played on the center console... damn you torrent!


Tesla never got its "autopilot" certified for road use in Germany afaik?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Classa64
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:05 am

I would be after the dealer to straighten it all out, as far as I would be concerned its on them.

In a round about way using the article a reference;

The dealer bought the car from a Tesla auction, with both “Enhanced Autopilot” and “Full Self Driving Mode” features intact....

Tesla stole back there software without informing dealer... That we know of.

The dealer then listed the Model S, advertising both features thinking they were still loaded... You cant just say it has something to get the sale, is that not false advertising?, But it seems they would have no reason to think the software was removed.

Customer bought car as advertised... Nothing works, go back to dealer give car back.

The thing that baffles me is would there not be a big pop up on the screen saying it had been removed before delivery?
"Freedom is the miles i'm rolling on"
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:11 am

anshabhi wrote:
Did Tesla mention this in their TnC when selling the car to the dealer? If yes, the dealer should compensate the buyer.
If not, a lawsuit is on its way for Tesla.

I personally believe Autopilot is a major reason for Tesla's attractiveness. There won't be any reason to buy a 7-year-old Telsa with depleted batteries otherwise, and the resale value of Teslas will crash.


it already has, this guy keeps taking his tesla in to get it appraised, and it keeps on going down in price, currently, he's lost 10k on it. It's model S 2013 he bought it used and he's still trying to get the paperwork from the last owner.
 
FatCat
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:20 am

WIederling wrote:
FatCat wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
Could also cause the emergence of a Tesla black market for torrented software.

I imagine torrenting down the software, installing it, and suddenly a German porn film being played on the center console... damn you torrent!


Tesla never got its "autopilot" certified for road use in Germany afaik?

Yes but you know, torrenteers prefer the EU "real" than the US "fake" movies, in that sense... :lol:
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
olle
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Re: Tesla disables software in used Model S after 3rd party sale

Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:20 pm

Does it have anything to do with certifications on self driving vehicles getting complicated? Japan have certification requirement from summer 2020 for level 3.

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