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Dutchy
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MH17-trail, part 1

Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:50 am

Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down over eastern-Ukraine on July 17, 2014. The international investigation team - JIT - has determined that the aircraft was shot down by a BUK-missile from the Russian military.

The trial of the MH17-case begins on March 9. Three Russians and one Ukrainian will be on trial: Russians Igor Girkin (48), Sergey Dubinsky (56) and Oleg Pulatov (52), and Ukranian Leonid Kharchenko (47). They are suspected of the murder of the 298 passengers of the aircraft, including 196 Dutchmen. The trail is scheduled to last till years end. So let justice prevail and we will see the outcome of this trail and see what the independent judges think of the evidence of the JIT.

I respectfully request that we stay on track with this and only put factual information in, with the proper links to credible sources.
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tommy1808
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:48 am

Now we just need to sort out rendition. ....

Best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:14 am

Interesting research done by the University of Leiden and Raam op Rusland in Russia. An opinion poll was done in Russia by house calls, lasting an hour each, asking of the opinion on a range of subjects. The research is academically verified and done under thousand of Russians.

A few points:
> Research shows that Russians judge the Netherlands differently than the Kremlin.
> 55% Russian citizens feel that their country should pay smart money to MH17 survivors, if international research shows that Russia is responsible for the disaster.
> 25% of the Russians who currently find it "difficult to say" who is behind the disaster. A majority of the Russians (53%) are convinced that the Ukrainian army is the culprit.
> The number of Russians that say their own army, Russian volunteers or pro-Russian rebels are the perpetrators is growing. 2015: 2% now 10%.
> The Russian government receives support from its population (75%) in maintaining its own "political course" despite European sanctions.
> CDA MP Chris van Dam: "Russians understand how important this is for relatives, despite the poor information they receive about this disaster," He points to the aid that the Netherlands provided at the time for the salvage of the sunk Russian nuclear submarine Koersk in 2000.
> D'66 MP Sjoerd Sjoerdsma also had to think about the Koersk: "implicitly supporting the MH17 process." "Encouraging Russians to dare to say aloud that justice must be done in this deeply human tragedy."
> VVD MP Sven Koopmans especially noticed the differences between what Russians think and their government: "We must continue to make that distinction." Nevertheless, he thinks that manipulation by Russian propaganda cannot be completely prevented. "Transparency and openness during the process are therefore of great importance."
> Sjoerdsma argues that simultaneous translation into Russian is also available from the court for the live stream. That has not yet been arranged.
> Russians are positive to very positive, says seventy percent, about the Netherlands, 5% are very negative about the Netherlands.
> The Netherlands is named fifth by the Russians in the list of countries with which Russia should maintain a friendship relationship, after China, Germany, the US and France

Link

If one wants to read more:

- MP Sjoerdsma: Have MH17 process translated live into Russian. The Russians must be able to judge for themselves, says the D66 after a survey among Russian citizens.
- Grapperhaus: Russia wanted to try MH17 suspects: The Russian authorities offered the Netherlands in October to try the three Russian suspects in the MH17 trial in Russia itself.
- MH17 process to be fully followed next year via live stream: The criminal proceedings about the disaster with flight MH17 can be followed live online via the internet. The Hague District Court announced this during a briefing for the media.

I agree with our MEP, we need to distinguish between the Putin regime and the Russians. The trail needs to be open, not just in the courtroom, itself, standard practice, but also a live stream with translation in Ukranian, English and Russian. Complete transparent. Good to see that this is being advocated.
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CitizenJustin
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:10 am

Thanks for the update Dutchy.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:51 am

Ukraine shook up their prosecutor's office. Among them, the 6 Ukrainian representatives at the JIT have been fired. It is seen as a bowing for Russia in an attempt to better the relationship. It will have no major consequence for the upcoming trial of the four accused, but it will delay the criminal case to all the others. It is a difficult case. of course, to master.

Reorganization OM "no major consequences" for MH17 process
The Public Prosecution Service (OM) does not expect that the reorganization of the judiciary in Ukraine will have a major impact on the MH17 process in the Netherlands that starts on 9 March.

NRC Handelsblad reported Monday that in recent months all Ukrainian MH-17 prosecutors have been relieved of their duties as part of reforms at the Ukrainian Public Prosecution Service. The international Joint Investigation Team (JIT) investigating the disaster with flight MH17 has always had two Ukrainian prosecutors.

According to the OM, the Netherlands has been informed of the changes in Ukraine. Next, Chief Public Prosecutor Fred Westerbeke, the investigator of the JIT, traveled to Ukraine for consultation. The JIT feared that due to the withdrawal of the Ukrainian prosecutors, a great deal of investigation experience was in danger of disappearing.

"We have received a guarantee from Ukraine that it will remain important that collective memory is not lost," says Brechtje van de Moosdijk, spokesman for the National Prosecutor's Office for the criminal investigation into the disaster with flight MH17.

Westerbeke was promised that a prosecutor, Oleh Peresada, may remain attached to the JIT as a kind of special adviser. He can no longer call himself a public prosecutor.

The JIT is not disappointed. "The work is continuing and we assume that the changes will not have much influence on the process in the Netherlands because the process file is as good as finished", says Van de Moosdijk.

Ukraine is expected to send new prosecutors for the JIT in the short term. One of them is already reading in the many thousands of page criminal file.

The MH17 flight disaster on July 17, 2014 killed 298 people, including 196 Dutchmen.


Link in `Dutch


CitizenJustin wrote:
Thanks for the update Dutchy.


No problem 8-)
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:17 pm

The identity of thirteen witnesses in the MH17 case will remain secret. According to the examining magistrate, they have the right to protection because they can feel threatened and the health or safety of the witness can be endangered. According to the Public Prosecution Service there are "significant risks for the witnesses".

This is evident from the documents that Nieuwsuur has in hand. The official charge, which the four suspects were sent on 2 October 2019, is also in the possession of Nieuwsuur. This shows that the suspects are charged with murder and manslaughter because they have deliberately endangered an aircraft.

They have, according to the OM, provided the "commander (s) and crew" of the Buk rocket with telephones and provided information about the correct location for firing the rocket. In addition, the suspects supervised the transport and were involved in hiding the Buk and the crew


link

13 witnesses will be anonymous. Of course, this has been tested in court if this is indeed necessary. One witness which has been put to the judges hasn't been granted anonymity.
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alfa164
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:22 pm

Dutchy wrote:
13 witnesses will be anonymous.


Unfortunately, a necessity if they want to avoid "accidentally" encountering some of Putin's novichok poisoning.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:52 am

Hacks, manipulation and theft: Russia did everything to thwart the MH17 investigation

Russia has tried for years to sabotage the two official investigations into the MH17 disaster. Moscow deployed its military intelligence service, processed members of the investigation team, and sent an elite unit to Rotterdam, the location of the investigation.

This is apparent from a reconstruction of the Volkskrant, for which various stakeholders were discussed.

Just before the start of the process, documents from the official investigation have now emerged, which were obtained after a hack or a leak. These documents - which are authentic - are published on pro-Russian websites and provided with translations; the publication should give the impression that Russia cannot be responsible for the downing of flight MH17.

Hack attempts
In recent years there have been several incidents with people involved in the MH17 investigations. A burglary employee, a photographer from the Ministry of Defense and a police officer's car broke into the car. In addition, there were hacking attempts, investigators were followed and malicious software was installed on telephones of military police who had been in Ukraine.

The Russian military intelligence service GROe plays an important role in undermining the investigation. Two of the Russian aviation experts who participated in the investigation by the Dutch Safety Board (OVV) were found to have ties with the GROe. The Dutch military intelligence service MIVD observed the two during their stay in the Netherlands. They were mainly concerned with editing the Malaysian members of the research team. After OVV meetings, one of them called the Kremlin for consultation.

Two members of GROe unit 29155 also came to the Netherlands after the MH17 was demolished, according to data shared by research collective Bellingcat with de Volkskrant. Unit 29155 is notorious and consists of war veterans who have been involved in various assassinations in Europe in recent years. This pair was in the Netherlands for three days. In the same period, the flight recorder and cockpit voice recorder from flight MH17 came to the Research Council in The Hague.

Process
Next week, criminal proceedings will commence against four suspects of involvement in the downing of the MH17. Of the documents that have now appeared on pro-Russian websites, the authenticity is not disputed by sources in the judiciary and in the intelligence world. They state that it is a conscious leak or a hack.

The documents, probably from 2016, are used to discredit the official investigation. Sources suspect that the pieces were stolen in Malaysia. Russian hackers were in Malaysia in December 2017 for an operation against the MH17 investigation.

The documents are on three websites that are all linked to Dutch blogger Max van der Werff - a self-proclaimed MH17 researcher who questions Russia's involvement in the downing of the passenger plane. Together with FvD leader Thierry Baudet, he was one of the signatories to a letter to US President Donald Trump asking for a new investigation into the MH17 disaster, because the OVV investigation would be "neither independent nor convincing" to be.

Official message
How Van der Werff gets the documents is unknown. Among the documents is an official message from the MIVD military security service from 2016 about the positions of ground-level air defense systems at the time of the disaster. It is one of the messages that the MIVD has prepared about Ukrainian and Russian weapon systems.

Van der Werff states on the basis of the document that according to the MIVD there was no Russian BUK rocket in Ukraine that could take down the MH17. That conclusion cannot be drawn on the basis of the leaked document and it is not true, but it is adopted by Russian media, including at state press agency Tass and Sputnik.

The Public Prosecution Office does not want to respond to the content of the leak. Sources indicate that some of the documents in a very large file are used to create confusion just before the trial.


Link in Dutch

A few days before the trail starts, new details emerge, how and when the Russian government tried to sabotage the MH17 investigations. Further how they tried to manipulate public opinion, especially in Russia itself. Most important that this trail is public and Russians can see for themselves what evidence there is against these four suspects.

Last attempt to identify MH17 victims

THE HAGUE - The Netherlands Forensic Institute is making a final attempt this spring to identify two Dutch victims of MH17. "We use the latest DNA-techniques for this," says NFI expert Arnoud Kal.


Link in Dutch

Hopefully the last two Dutch victims can be identified with the latest techniques. It will give some closure for the families involved.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:16 am

Dutchy wrote:
A few days before the trail starts, new details emerge, how and when the Russian government tried to sabotage the MH17 investigations. Further how they tried to manipulate public opinion, especially in Russia itself.


Is there anything in this investigation or trial left to be sabotaged? Witnesses are anonymous. Evidence is from some “open sources”. The party that should be under investigation is on JIT. The suspects are not only free, they are also public persons, living their lives, giving interviews to journalists. Everyone knows where to find them and how to talk to them - except the investigators for some reason.

Dutchy wrote:
Most important that this trail is public and Russians can see for themselves what evidence there is against these four suspects.


Impatiently waiting...
 
tommy1808
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:04 am

anrec80 wrote:
Is there anything in this investigation or trial left to be sabotaged?


Good question, there probably is nothing left Russia can sabotage short of murdering witnesses.

Witnesses are anonymous.


Witness protection is normal if the guilty party is one using WMD attacks on people they don't like. If Russia was a real country instead of a Mafiacratie that wouldn't be necessary. Well, in fact all those people would still be alive....

The suspects are not only free, they are also public persons, living their lives, giving interviews to journalists. Everyone knows where to find them and how to talk to them -


The dutch court is probably willing to interview them any time, and even pay for the trip.

Impatiently waiting...


I don't see why evidence beyond the fact that it was shot down is needed. No matter who pressed the fire button Russia is guilty. Without their crime against humanity no one would have died.

Best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:54 pm

Could you please keep this thread clear of these kinds of indowendows, I created another thread for this purpose.
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:24 pm

A piece about one of the subjects: Russian General Sergey Dubinsky

Russian General Sergey Dubinsky feels completely safe now that the criminal case against him and three other suspects of the attack on flight MH17 starts next Monday. This newspaper spoke with friends and acquaintances of Dubinsky, and eventually with himself. "I have a clear conscience."


"Do you want an honest answer?" Asks Sergey Doebinski, suspected of taking down flight MH17. The question was whether he is worried, now that the trial against him and three co-suspects is starting next Monday. His answer is clear. " "I don't get hot or cold. I know I can't be extradited as a Russian citizen. It's in the Russian constitution. It protects me."


Dubinsky cannot help reproach his old friend. "I don't understand you, why are you for that junta?" He says, using the Russian swear word for the new Ukrainian regime. "You are Russian yourself."

But Tioenov bounces the ball back. "Why did you shoot the Boeing out of the sky?"

According to Tioenov, Doebinski reacts emotionally, saying something important. "" "You understand that we didn't do that," he exclaimed. He pointed up and said, "Those were bastards from Moscow!"


ioenov is now a lot more critical of his old friend. He has recognized the voice of Dubinsky on the telephone conversations around MH17. ,, I didn't hesitate for a moment that it was him. He gave the command for the location of the Buk. "


Tioenov does not see his old mate as the main culprit. ,, Dubinski has mainly been a performer and certainly not the most important. He carried out the technical part of the assignment. I'm sure he didn't know the ultimate goal. And that it was not in his power to bring the BUK there. "


When the JIT asks him who sent the Buk to the DNR, Tioenov replies: ,, Putin. Only he as supreme commander could give permission to bring that Buk to Ukraine. Putin has allowed that terrible weapon to come there. "


Link in `Dutch

A preview of what kind of witnesses we can expect in this trial.
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:15 am

The trial will start today. The court has put up a website with all the relevant questions answered about the proceedings. If you want to see it for yourself, there is a live stream: Link

Based on questions; what can you expect from the first session days?
The MH17 criminal trial will start Monday, March 9, 2020. Many people wonder what to expect from the first sessions.

The MH17 criminal trial will start Monday, March 9, 2020. Many people wonder what to expect from the first sessions. On this site you'll find a link to a previously posted video clip with an explanation of the first days of the MH17 trial.

Because these first sessions are inventory in character, it is difficult to predict how long they will last and which of the reserved days will be used. This depends on who will be there, how far they stand with their preparations and whether defenses or research wishes have already been stated. It could also be that the session is interrupted by the court for a number of days, so that a response to a possible request or defense can be prepared. This would mean that not all reserved session days are used. The fact that an accreditation has been granted for a specific day does not mean therefore, that there actually will be a session on that day.

The court of The Hague has reserved a courtroom in the Schiphol Judicial Complex (JCS) for the MH17 criminal trial for the periods of 9 to 13 March and 23 to 27 March 2020. The Court of The Hague has reserved these and other periods to ensure that space is available for court days in the MH17 trial. In the JCS, other courts also handle court cases.

Keep an eye on this website and twitter account @CourtMH17 for the latest information about the criminal case. Starting 9 March 2020 the live stream images of the session (s) will also be offered on this site.
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:24 pm

A summary of the first day, very procedural of course:

This was the first day of the MH17 process

The long-awaited, first day of the MH17 trial took place Monday with international interest in the Schiphol Judicial Complex. Although the character was inventive in nature, we have seen a small tip of the veil about one part of the defense of defendant Oleg Pulatov.

The Public Prosecution Service (OM) presented the case
The OM has referred the case to the court in The Hague, which means that the content of the case is briefly presented. It has been stated that the four suspects are responsible for bringing down the flight, with the death of the 298 occupants as a result.

> The names of all the victims were read in the impressive lecture.
> The indictment is murder and the death of an aircraft. That this may have happened by accident does not matter to the prosecution for the prosecution.
> According to the prosecutors, the men had the opportunity to respond to the indictment and could attend the case. Three of them will now be prosecuted in absentia.
> The OM warns of fake news in the coming period. According to the judiciary, Russia has actively thwarted the case.

Pulatov's defense was heard
Only on behalf of the Defendant Pulatov did lawyers from the law firm Sjöcrona Van Stigt show up. A Russian lawyer named Elena Koetina is also sitting in the courtroom on his behalf.
They need even more time to read in, because they have only been connected since January and the file is immense.
In an initial argument before the court, they state that they wonder why no investigation has been done into not closing the airspace.
It was suggested that Ukraine may be co-responsible and that this has not been looked at because the country is also in the JIT.
Press conference MH17: who are the suspects and what was their role? Press conference MH17: who are the suspects and what was their role?

The lawyers of the relatives form a team
Nine lawyers represent nearly four hundred relatives of a large proportion of the victims. This concerns almost all Dutch victims and some foreign victims.
They form one team of lawyers.
In a brief response to the court, they said today that they do not care about the possible Ukrainian liability in this criminal case.


Link in Dutchy

The only surprise is that there is a Russian lawyer on behalf of mr. Pulatov.
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ltbewr
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:59 pm

One has to wonder if the planned proceedings after today or this week will be adjourned to later dates due to the COVID-19 epidemic. Although it is likely they Defendants will be convicted, it is unlikely they will ever face any real penalty except by Russians who may want to silence them to protect higher-ups.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:14 pm

During the second day of the MH17 trial in the Schiphol Judicial Complex, the Public Prosecution Service (OM) explained the progress of the investigation on Tuesday. An overview of what else happened.

The Public Prosecution Service (OM) provided an interim report and mentioned research wishes.

As far as justice is concerned, substantive treatment could be started in 2021. On Tuesday the OM made some progress for investigations to which the defense of Oleg Pulatov could respond. This related to:

> Further investigation into images in the criminal file.
> Hearing anonymous witnesses again, this includes separatists from the battlefield.
> Organizing an inspection where the parties to the proceedings look at the wreckage of MH17.
> Hearing Pulatov as a witness in court.

However, the defense argues that it cannot respond to anything.
In a response to the OM's investigative wishes, the defense of Pulatov once again stated that there had not been sufficient time for preparation.
> They only want to respond to the research wishes at an unspecified moment. According to the defense, June is too early.
> They denounce that the OM spoke about Russia and the smokescreen that landed after the plane was taken down. The lawyers point out that Russia will be approached at the same time if the PPS needs something.

The lawyers of the relatives want to be more involved.

The law team that assists a large proportion of the relatives, in particular, argued that they wanted to be more involved in the case.
> For example, the lawyers do not have the criminal file in their hands and therefore cannot prepare properly for the hearings.
> To view just a few of the documents in the file is not sufficient, it is all about coherence.

The court will decide on all wishes at a later date.

On Monday, March 23, the court will make a decision on everything that has been discussed on Tuesday.
>
This means that the sessions of Wednesday, Thursday and Friday will be canceled.


So that's it for this week, now it is up to the judges to decided what to do with all the requests.
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:16 pm

AMSTERDAM - The criminal case against four men suspected of involvement in the downing of flight MH17 continues on March 23 behind closed doors. That measure was taken, according to the court, because of the measures to contain the spread of the coronavirus.

Courts in the Netherlands will close their doors from Tuesday. In principle, litigation is suspended until April 6. A limited number of cases do go ahead, including the MH17 criminal case. The session can be followed via the livestream at www.courtmh17.com.

On 23 March, The Hague District Court in the Schiphol Judicial Complex gives its decisions on the claims and requests submitted on 9 and 10 March. Due to the coronavirus, no other topics will be discussed on that day.

After announcing its decisions, the court is expected to resume on June 8.


Link in Dutch

As expected, the trial will continue, abeit without public. Of course it will be held in public, hence life feet will be avialable.
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:22 am

Trial postponed in order to give the defence more time to prepare at their request:

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) - The trial of three Russians and a Ukrainian charged with multiple murder for their alleged roles in shooting down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in 2014 resumed briefly Monday as the presiding judge read out a number of preliminary decisions. The courtroom was almost empty due to restrictions aimed at slowing the spread of the coronavirus.

Decisions on several requests by prosecutors for further investigations were delayed to give defense lawyers for one of the defendants more time to prepare.

Among decisions taken by the court since the trial opened on March 9, Presiding Judge Hendrik Steenhuis authorized prosecutors to give lawyers for family members of the 298 victims access to limited parts of the investigation dossier.


Link

The trial will continue on June 8th.
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