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Dutchy
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MH17-trail, part 1

Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:50 am

Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down over eastern-Ukraine on July 17, 2014. The international investigation team - JIT - has determined that the aircraft was shot down by a BUK-missile from the Russian military.

The trial of the MH17-case begins on March 9. Three Russians and one Ukrainian will be on trial: Russians Igor Girkin (48), Sergey Dubinsky (56) and Oleg Pulatov (52), and Ukranian Leonid Kharchenko (47). They are suspected of the murder of the 298 passengers of the aircraft, including 196 Dutchmen. The trail is scheduled to last till years end. So let justice prevail and we will see the outcome of this trail and see what the independent judges think of the evidence of the JIT.

I respectfully request that we stay on track with this and only put factual information in, with the proper links to credible sources.
 
tommy1808
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:48 am

Now we just need to sort out rendition. ....

Best regards
Thomas
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:14 am

Interesting research done by the University of Leiden and Raam op Rusland in Russia. An opinion poll was done in Russia by house calls, lasting an hour each, asking of the opinion on a range of subjects. The research is academically verified and done under thousand of Russians.

A few points:
> Research shows that Russians judge the Netherlands differently than the Kremlin.
> 55% Russian citizens feel that their country should pay smart money to MH17 survivors, if international research shows that Russia is responsible for the disaster.
> 25% of the Russians who currently find it "difficult to say" who is behind the disaster. A majority of the Russians (53%) are convinced that the Ukrainian army is the culprit.
> The number of Russians that say their own army, Russian volunteers or pro-Russian rebels are the perpetrators is growing. 2015: 2% now 10%.
> The Russian government receives support from its population (75%) in maintaining its own "political course" despite European sanctions.
> CDA MP Chris van Dam: "Russians understand how important this is for relatives, despite the poor information they receive about this disaster," He points to the aid that the Netherlands provided at the time for the salvage of the sunk Russian nuclear submarine Koersk in 2000.
> D'66 MP Sjoerd Sjoerdsma also had to think about the Koersk: "implicitly supporting the MH17 process." "Encouraging Russians to dare to say aloud that justice must be done in this deeply human tragedy."
> VVD MP Sven Koopmans especially noticed the differences between what Russians think and their government: "We must continue to make that distinction." Nevertheless, he thinks that manipulation by Russian propaganda cannot be completely prevented. "Transparency and openness during the process are therefore of great importance."
> Sjoerdsma argues that simultaneous translation into Russian is also available from the court for the live stream. That has not yet been arranged.
> Russians are positive to very positive, says seventy percent, about the Netherlands, 5% are very negative about the Netherlands.
> The Netherlands is named fifth by the Russians in the list of countries with which Russia should maintain a friendship relationship, after China, Germany, the US and France

Link

If one wants to read more:

- MP Sjoerdsma: Have MH17 process translated live into Russian. The Russians must be able to judge for themselves, says the D66 after a survey among Russian citizens.
- Grapperhaus: Russia wanted to try MH17 suspects: The Russian authorities offered the Netherlands in October to try the three Russian suspects in the MH17 trial in Russia itself.
- MH17 process to be fully followed next year via live stream: The criminal proceedings about the disaster with flight MH17 can be followed live online via the internet. The Hague District Court announced this during a briefing for the media.

I agree with our MEP, we need to distinguish between the Putin regime and the Russians. The trail needs to be open, not just in the courtroom, itself, standard practice, but also a live stream with translation in Ukranian, English and Russian. Complete transparent. Good to see that this is being advocated.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:10 am

Thanks for the update Dutchy.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:51 am

Ukraine shook up their prosecutor's office. Among them, the 6 Ukrainian representatives at the JIT have been fired. It is seen as a bowing for Russia in an attempt to better the relationship. It will have no major consequence for the upcoming trial of the four accused, but it will delay the criminal case to all the others. It is a difficult case. of course, to master.

Reorganization OM "no major consequences" for MH17 process
The Public Prosecution Service (OM) does not expect that the reorganization of the judiciary in Ukraine will have a major impact on the MH17 process in the Netherlands that starts on 9 March.

NRC Handelsblad reported Monday that in recent months all Ukrainian MH-17 prosecutors have been relieved of their duties as part of reforms at the Ukrainian Public Prosecution Service. The international Joint Investigation Team (JIT) investigating the disaster with flight MH17 has always had two Ukrainian prosecutors.

According to the OM, the Netherlands has been informed of the changes in Ukraine. Next, Chief Public Prosecutor Fred Westerbeke, the investigator of the JIT, traveled to Ukraine for consultation. The JIT feared that due to the withdrawal of the Ukrainian prosecutors, a great deal of investigation experience was in danger of disappearing.

"We have received a guarantee from Ukraine that it will remain important that collective memory is not lost," says Brechtje van de Moosdijk, spokesman for the National Prosecutor's Office for the criminal investigation into the disaster with flight MH17.

Westerbeke was promised that a prosecutor, Oleh Peresada, may remain attached to the JIT as a kind of special adviser. He can no longer call himself a public prosecutor.

The JIT is not disappointed. "The work is continuing and we assume that the changes will not have much influence on the process in the Netherlands because the process file is as good as finished", says Van de Moosdijk.

Ukraine is expected to send new prosecutors for the JIT in the short term. One of them is already reading in the many thousands of page criminal file.

The MH17 flight disaster on July 17, 2014 killed 298 people, including 196 Dutchmen.


Link in `Dutch


CitizenJustin wrote:
Thanks for the update Dutchy.


No problem 8-)
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:17 pm

The identity of thirteen witnesses in the MH17 case will remain secret. According to the examining magistrate, they have the right to protection because they can feel threatened and the health or safety of the witness can be endangered. According to the Public Prosecution Service there are "significant risks for the witnesses".

This is evident from the documents that Nieuwsuur has in hand. The official charge, which the four suspects were sent on 2 October 2019, is also in the possession of Nieuwsuur. This shows that the suspects are charged with murder and manslaughter because they have deliberately endangered an aircraft.

They have, according to the OM, provided the "commander (s) and crew" of the Buk rocket with telephones and provided information about the correct location for firing the rocket. In addition, the suspects supervised the transport and were involved in hiding the Buk and the crew


link

13 witnesses will be anonymous. Of course, this has been tested in court if this is indeed necessary. One witness which has been put to the judges hasn't been granted anonymity.
 
alfa164
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:22 pm

Dutchy wrote:
13 witnesses will be anonymous.


Unfortunately, a necessity if they want to avoid "accidentally" encountering some of Putin's novichok poisoning.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:52 am

Hacks, manipulation and theft: Russia did everything to thwart the MH17 investigation

Russia has tried for years to sabotage the two official investigations into the MH17 disaster. Moscow deployed its military intelligence service, processed members of the investigation team, and sent an elite unit to Rotterdam, the location of the investigation.

This is apparent from a reconstruction of the Volkskrant, for which various stakeholders were discussed.

Just before the start of the process, documents from the official investigation have now emerged, which were obtained after a hack or a leak. These documents - which are authentic - are published on pro-Russian websites and provided with translations; the publication should give the impression that Russia cannot be responsible for the downing of flight MH17.

Hack attempts
In recent years there have been several incidents with people involved in the MH17 investigations. A burglary employee, a photographer from the Ministry of Defense and a police officer's car broke into the car. In addition, there were hacking attempts, investigators were followed and malicious software was installed on telephones of military police who had been in Ukraine.

The Russian military intelligence service GROe plays an important role in undermining the investigation. Two of the Russian aviation experts who participated in the investigation by the Dutch Safety Board (OVV) were found to have ties with the GROe. The Dutch military intelligence service MIVD observed the two during their stay in the Netherlands. They were mainly concerned with editing the Malaysian members of the research team. After OVV meetings, one of them called the Kremlin for consultation.

Two members of GROe unit 29155 also came to the Netherlands after the MH17 was demolished, according to data shared by research collective Bellingcat with de Volkskrant. Unit 29155 is notorious and consists of war veterans who have been involved in various assassinations in Europe in recent years. This pair was in the Netherlands for three days. In the same period, the flight recorder and cockpit voice recorder from flight MH17 came to the Research Council in The Hague.

Process
Next week, criminal proceedings will commence against four suspects of involvement in the downing of the MH17. Of the documents that have now appeared on pro-Russian websites, the authenticity is not disputed by sources in the judiciary and in the intelligence world. They state that it is a conscious leak or a hack.

The documents, probably from 2016, are used to discredit the official investigation. Sources suspect that the pieces were stolen in Malaysia. Russian hackers were in Malaysia in December 2017 for an operation against the MH17 investigation.

The documents are on three websites that are all linked to Dutch blogger Max van der Werff - a self-proclaimed MH17 researcher who questions Russia's involvement in the downing of the passenger plane. Together with FvD leader Thierry Baudet, he was one of the signatories to a letter to US President Donald Trump asking for a new investigation into the MH17 disaster, because the OVV investigation would be "neither independent nor convincing" to be.

Official message
How Van der Werff gets the documents is unknown. Among the documents is an official message from the MIVD military security service from 2016 about the positions of ground-level air defense systems at the time of the disaster. It is one of the messages that the MIVD has prepared about Ukrainian and Russian weapon systems.

Van der Werff states on the basis of the document that according to the MIVD there was no Russian BUK rocket in Ukraine that could take down the MH17. That conclusion cannot be drawn on the basis of the leaked document and it is not true, but it is adopted by Russian media, including at state press agency Tass and Sputnik.

The Public Prosecution Office does not want to respond to the content of the leak. Sources indicate that some of the documents in a very large file are used to create confusion just before the trial.


Link in Dutch

A few days before the trail starts, new details emerge, how and when the Russian government tried to sabotage the MH17 investigations. Further how they tried to manipulate public opinion, especially in Russia itself. Most important that this trail is public and Russians can see for themselves what evidence there is against these four suspects.

Last attempt to identify MH17 victims

THE HAGUE - The Netherlands Forensic Institute is making a final attempt this spring to identify two Dutch victims of MH17. "We use the latest DNA-techniques for this," says NFI expert Arnoud Kal.


Link in Dutch

Hopefully the last two Dutch victims can be identified with the latest techniques. It will give some closure for the families involved.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:16 am

Dutchy wrote:
A few days before the trail starts, new details emerge, how and when the Russian government tried to sabotage the MH17 investigations. Further how they tried to manipulate public opinion, especially in Russia itself.


Is there anything in this investigation or trial left to be sabotaged? Witnesses are anonymous. Evidence is from some “open sources”. The party that should be under investigation is on JIT. The suspects are not only free, they are also public persons, living their lives, giving interviews to journalists. Everyone knows where to find them and how to talk to them - except the investigators for some reason.

Dutchy wrote:
Most important that this trail is public and Russians can see for themselves what evidence there is against these four suspects.


Impatiently waiting...
 
tommy1808
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:04 am

anrec80 wrote:
Is there anything in this investigation or trial left to be sabotaged?


Good question, there probably is nothing left Russia can sabotage short of murdering witnesses.

Witnesses are anonymous.


Witness protection is normal if the guilty party is one using WMD attacks on people they don't like. If Russia was a real country instead of a Mafiacratie that wouldn't be necessary. Well, in fact all those people would still be alive....

The suspects are not only free, they are also public persons, living their lives, giving interviews to journalists. Everyone knows where to find them and how to talk to them -


The dutch court is probably willing to interview them any time, and even pay for the trip.

Impatiently waiting...


I don't see why evidence beyond the fact that it was shot down is needed. No matter who pressed the fire button Russia is guilty. Without their crime against humanity no one would have died.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:54 pm

Could you please keep this thread clear of these kinds of indowendows, I created another thread for this purpose.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:24 pm

A piece about one of the subjects: Russian General Sergey Dubinsky

Russian General Sergey Dubinsky feels completely safe now that the criminal case against him and three other suspects of the attack on flight MH17 starts next Monday. This newspaper spoke with friends and acquaintances of Dubinsky, and eventually with himself. "I have a clear conscience."


"Do you want an honest answer?" Asks Sergey Doebinski, suspected of taking down flight MH17. The question was whether he is worried, now that the trial against him and three co-suspects is starting next Monday. His answer is clear. " "I don't get hot or cold. I know I can't be extradited as a Russian citizen. It's in the Russian constitution. It protects me."


Dubinsky cannot help reproach his old friend. "I don't understand you, why are you for that junta?" He says, using the Russian swear word for the new Ukrainian regime. "You are Russian yourself."

But Tioenov bounces the ball back. "Why did you shoot the Boeing out of the sky?"

According to Tioenov, Doebinski reacts emotionally, saying something important. "" "You understand that we didn't do that," he exclaimed. He pointed up and said, "Those were bastards from Moscow!"


ioenov is now a lot more critical of his old friend. He has recognized the voice of Dubinsky on the telephone conversations around MH17. ,, I didn't hesitate for a moment that it was him. He gave the command for the location of the Buk. "


Tioenov does not see his old mate as the main culprit. ,, Dubinski has mainly been a performer and certainly not the most important. He carried out the technical part of the assignment. I'm sure he didn't know the ultimate goal. And that it was not in his power to bring the BUK there. "


When the JIT asks him who sent the Buk to the DNR, Tioenov replies: ,, Putin. Only he as supreme commander could give permission to bring that Buk to Ukraine. Putin has allowed that terrible weapon to come there. "


Link in `Dutch

A preview of what kind of witnesses we can expect in this trial.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:15 am

The trial will start today. The court has put up a website with all the relevant questions answered about the proceedings. If you want to see it for yourself, there is a live stream: Link

Based on questions; what can you expect from the first session days?
The MH17 criminal trial will start Monday, March 9, 2020. Many people wonder what to expect from the first sessions.

The MH17 criminal trial will start Monday, March 9, 2020. Many people wonder what to expect from the first sessions. On this site you'll find a link to a previously posted video clip with an explanation of the first days of the MH17 trial.

Because these first sessions are inventory in character, it is difficult to predict how long they will last and which of the reserved days will be used. This depends on who will be there, how far they stand with their preparations and whether defenses or research wishes have already been stated. It could also be that the session is interrupted by the court for a number of days, so that a response to a possible request or defense can be prepared. This would mean that not all reserved session days are used. The fact that an accreditation has been granted for a specific day does not mean therefore, that there actually will be a session on that day.

The court of The Hague has reserved a courtroom in the Schiphol Judicial Complex (JCS) for the MH17 criminal trial for the periods of 9 to 13 March and 23 to 27 March 2020. The Court of The Hague has reserved these and other periods to ensure that space is available for court days in the MH17 trial. In the JCS, other courts also handle court cases.

Keep an eye on this website and twitter account @CourtMH17 for the latest information about the criminal case. Starting 9 March 2020 the live stream images of the session (s) will also be offered on this site.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:24 pm

A summary of the first day, very procedural of course:

This was the first day of the MH17 process

The long-awaited, first day of the MH17 trial took place Monday with international interest in the Schiphol Judicial Complex. Although the character was inventive in nature, we have seen a small tip of the veil about one part of the defense of defendant Oleg Pulatov.

The Public Prosecution Service (OM) presented the case
The OM has referred the case to the court in The Hague, which means that the content of the case is briefly presented. It has been stated that the four suspects are responsible for bringing down the flight, with the death of the 298 occupants as a result.

> The names of all the victims were read in the impressive lecture.
> The indictment is murder and the death of an aircraft. That this may have happened by accident does not matter to the prosecution for the prosecution.
> According to the prosecutors, the men had the opportunity to respond to the indictment and could attend the case. Three of them will now be prosecuted in absentia.
> The OM warns of fake news in the coming period. According to the judiciary, Russia has actively thwarted the case.

Pulatov's defense was heard
Only on behalf of the Defendant Pulatov did lawyers from the law firm Sjöcrona Van Stigt show up. A Russian lawyer named Elena Koetina is also sitting in the courtroom on his behalf.
They need even more time to read in, because they have only been connected since January and the file is immense.
In an initial argument before the court, they state that they wonder why no investigation has been done into not closing the airspace.
It was suggested that Ukraine may be co-responsible and that this has not been looked at because the country is also in the JIT.
Press conference MH17: who are the suspects and what was their role? Press conference MH17: who are the suspects and what was their role?

The lawyers of the relatives form a team
Nine lawyers represent nearly four hundred relatives of a large proportion of the victims. This concerns almost all Dutch victims and some foreign victims.
They form one team of lawyers.
In a brief response to the court, they said today that they do not care about the possible Ukrainian liability in this criminal case.


Link in Dutchy

The only surprise is that there is a Russian lawyer on behalf of mr. Pulatov.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:59 pm

One has to wonder if the planned proceedings after today or this week will be adjourned to later dates due to the COVID-19 epidemic. Although it is likely they Defendants will be convicted, it is unlikely they will ever face any real penalty except by Russians who may want to silence them to protect higher-ups.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:14 pm

During the second day of the MH17 trial in the Schiphol Judicial Complex, the Public Prosecution Service (OM) explained the progress of the investigation on Tuesday. An overview of what else happened.

The Public Prosecution Service (OM) provided an interim report and mentioned research wishes.

As far as justice is concerned, substantive treatment could be started in 2021. On Tuesday the OM made some progress for investigations to which the defense of Oleg Pulatov could respond. This related to:

> Further investigation into images in the criminal file.
> Hearing anonymous witnesses again, this includes separatists from the battlefield.
> Organizing an inspection where the parties to the proceedings look at the wreckage of MH17.
> Hearing Pulatov as a witness in court.

However, the defense argues that it cannot respond to anything.
In a response to the OM's investigative wishes, the defense of Pulatov once again stated that there had not been sufficient time for preparation.
> They only want to respond to the research wishes at an unspecified moment. According to the defense, June is too early.
> They denounce that the OM spoke about Russia and the smokescreen that landed after the plane was taken down. The lawyers point out that Russia will be approached at the same time if the PPS needs something.

The lawyers of the relatives want to be more involved.

The law team that assists a large proportion of the relatives, in particular, argued that they wanted to be more involved in the case.
> For example, the lawyers do not have the criminal file in their hands and therefore cannot prepare properly for the hearings.
> To view just a few of the documents in the file is not sufficient, it is all about coherence.

The court will decide on all wishes at a later date.

On Monday, March 23, the court will make a decision on everything that has been discussed on Tuesday.
>
This means that the sessions of Wednesday, Thursday and Friday will be canceled.


So that's it for this week, now it is up to the judges to decided what to do with all the requests.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:16 pm

AMSTERDAM - The criminal case against four men suspected of involvement in the downing of flight MH17 continues on March 23 behind closed doors. That measure was taken, according to the court, because of the measures to contain the spread of the coronavirus.

Courts in the Netherlands will close their doors from Tuesday. In principle, litigation is suspended until April 6. A limited number of cases do go ahead, including the MH17 criminal case. The session can be followed via the livestream at www.courtmh17.com.

On 23 March, The Hague District Court in the Schiphol Judicial Complex gives its decisions on the claims and requests submitted on 9 and 10 March. Due to the coronavirus, no other topics will be discussed on that day.

After announcing its decisions, the court is expected to resume on June 8.


Link in Dutch

As expected, the trial will continue, abeit without public. Of course it will be held in public, hence life feet will be avialable.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:22 am

Trial postponed in order to give the defence more time to prepare at their request:

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) - The trial of three Russians and a Ukrainian charged with multiple murder for their alleged roles in shooting down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in 2014 resumed briefly Monday as the presiding judge read out a number of preliminary decisions. The courtroom was almost empty due to restrictions aimed at slowing the spread of the coronavirus.

Decisions on several requests by prosecutors for further investigations were delayed to give defense lawyers for one of the defendants more time to prepare.

Among decisions taken by the court since the trial opened on March 9, Presiding Judge Hendrik Steenhuis authorized prosecutors to give lawyers for family members of the 298 victims access to limited parts of the investigation dossier.


Link

The trial will continue on June 8th.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:44 am

The trail continues today. The barristers can lay-out their concerns today and react to the public defender's case as presented last week.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:00 pm

The barristers of Oleg Pulatov, suspect of the downing of flight MH17, say they have enough evidence that there were fighter planes near the aircraft of Malaysia Airlines. They asked the court of The Hague on Monday for permission for additional research.


In Dutch

We will see if the court will order additional research if there was a fighter in the vicinity of the MH17. And if so, what this has got to do with anything since there is overwhelming evidence of a BUK shooting down the MH17. It is up to the court to decide if the barristers ply has some merit or is set a side again.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:03 am

It's rather sad that the trials are given scant coverage here in Malaysia, given how this involves a Malaysian company and Malaysian victims.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:10 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
It's rather sad that the trials are given scant coverage here in Malaysia, given how this involves a Malaysian company and Malaysian victims.


This whole picture is truly sad, and you aren't missing on a lot. Had I been a Malaysian, I would not want to look at this farce. Your country kind of abstained from taking part in it, and it's the best you can do for your fellow citizens. And hope that the better time to re-visit comes. Someone else wants to push forward with it - let this remain on their conscience.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:37 am

anrec80 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
It's rather sad that the trials are given scant coverage here in Malaysia, given how this involves a Malaysian company and Malaysian victims.


This whole picture is truly sad, and you aren't missing on a lot. Had I been a Malaysian, I would not want to look at this farce. Your country kind of abstained from taking part in it, and it's the best you can do for your fellow citizens. And hope that the better time to re-visit comes. Someone else wants to push forward with it - let this remain on their conscience.


Poppycock.

The farce is Russia's stupid attempts at denial, presenting fabricated evidence that's easily debunked.

No Russian shill can convince me otherwise.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:12 pm

The lawyers of Oleg Pulatov, a suspect in the MH17 trial, asked the court in The Hague on Tuesday to hear witnesses who can provide more clarity about the distance that a BUK-missile can travel and the tapped telephone calls included in the file.


Link in Dutch

The barristers requested to question the director of Almaz-Antey is quite strange. Don't know what he has contributed to the trail. As long as the barristers don't find any major holes in the theory that the BUK was fired from a rebel-held field near Pervomaiskyi, it is inconsequential. Of course, the testimony of a director of a major Russian defense firm is in itself highly questionable.

The public defender's office will react to these requests on Friday.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:15 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Poppycock.

The farce is Russia's stupid attempts at denial, presenting fabricated evidence that's easily debunked.

No Russian shill can convince me otherwise.


Russia isn’t part of the investigation and is not providing anything unless asked (e.g. documentation on the missile). The main “investigators” are Ukrainians, who should be under the investigation themselves. The rest of the investigation depends on them. Their main task is not to accidentally charge themselves, hence they totally would forge evidence, provide fake witnesses (especially given that they are “anonymous”). Anyone else’s problem is just to get out of this swamp without loss of face (and career). That’s about it.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:16 am

Dutchy wrote:
The barristers requested to question the director of Almaz-Antey is quite strange. Don't know what he has contributed to the trail. As long as the barristers don't find any major holes in the theory that the BUK was fired from a rebel-held field near Pervomaiskyi, it is inconsequential. Of course, the testimony of a director of a major Russian defense firm is in itself highly questionable.

The public defender's office will react to these requests on Friday.


Why not? At least one witness that’s not anonymous.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:32 am

anrec80 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Poppycock.

The farce is Russia's stupid attempts at denial, presenting fabricated evidence that's easily debunked.

No Russian shill can convince me otherwise.


Russia isn’t part of the investigation and is not providing anything unless asked (e.g. documentation on the missile). The main “investigators” are Ukrainians, who should be under the investigation themselves. The rest of the investigation depends on them. Their main task is not to accidentally charge themselves, hence they totally would forge evidence, provide fake witnesses (especially given that they are “anonymous”). Anyone else’s problem is just to get out of this swamp without loss of face (and career). That’s about it.


If you want to discuss this, I suggest MH17 trial - discussion tread, in order to keep this thread about facts.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:
If you want to discuss this, I suggest MH17 trial - discussion tread, in order to keep this thread about facts.


The facts in MH-17 case have ended here, within days after the crash:
https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/the-unite ... s-on-mh17/

Long story short - there was a US satellite above the area at the time of the incident. Pictures were said to exist and to prove the guilt, but for some reason USA refuses to disclose them. We've seen citations that this was a "secret satellite", but those do not exist - Russians (and Americans for that reason) do maintain a catalogue of every single object in space, including satellites, and their capabilities.

Without that, the whole case can't be anything but farce and speculations. To be honest, I don't even know what motivated the lawyers to come into the case - their client isn't a millionaire, and defense in such high profile case can easily run into 7 figures (Butina's legal fees in the USA are in USD 600-750K range). They probably can find a better case for themselves to spend time on. Regardless of the trial outcome, the lives of our suspects will not change anyhow - they were under EU sanctions even before the trial, and can't even pay the lawyers legally even having the money.

I don't even watch this closely anymore, it's all clear as a day by now.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:20 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
If you want to discuss this, I suggest MH17 trial - discussion tread, in order to keep this thread about facts.


The facts in MH-17 case have ended here, within days after the crash:
https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/the-unite ... s-on-mh17/

Long story short - there was a US satellite above the area at the time of the incident. Pictures were said to exist and to prove the guilt, but for some reason USA refuses to disclose them. We've seen citations that this was a "secret satellite", but those do not exist - Russians (and Americans for that reason) do maintain a catalogue of every single object in space, including satellites, and their capabilities.

Without that, the whole case can't be anything but farce and speculations. To be honest, I don't even know what motivated the lawyers to come into the case - their client isn't a millionaire, and defense in such high profile case can easily run into 7 figures (Butina's legal fees in the USA are in USD 600-750K range). They probably can find a better case for themselves to spend time on. Regardless of the trial outcome, the lives of our suspects will not change anyhow - they were under EU sanctions even before the trial, and can't even pay the lawyers legally even having the money.

I don't even watch this closely anymore, it's all clear as a day by now.


If you want to discuss this, I suggest MH17 trial - discussion tread, in order to keep this thread about facts.[/quote]

This has been debunked a long time ago. But it is a free world so you are entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:44 pm

Dutchy wrote:
This has been debunked a long time ago. But it is a free world so you are entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.


Not only not debunked, but very recently confirmed:
https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/ ... #gsc.tab=0

An Australian article, about 2 weeks old (from June 9). About a Dutch prosecutor in the United States.

The United States may have crucial satellite photos of the missile used to bring down MH17 six years ago but the images are classified, a court has heard. In the District Court of The Hague on Tuesday, prosecutor Thijs Berger discussed radar and satellite analysis of the July 2014 downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.


He says the Dutch national prosecutor was briefed by US officials on several classified and unclassified documents. "Part of the underlying metadata and research data has not been made available for inspection," Berger told the court.


"The US authorities have indicated that they cannot provide more information about the detection of the missile than stated in the written statement and that the Dutch national prosecutor has given it confidential."


If this doesn't count as the fact on your end - then you need to clarify what does.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:43 am

OM shows new evidence knocking down MH17 with buk missile and roller Oleg Pulatov

The Public Prosecution Service (OM) presented new evidence on Friday that flight MH17 was shot down with a buk missile. It is a response from the judiciary to requests from the defense to investigate alternative scenarios for the Malaysia Airlines plane disaster by hearing witnesses.

The prosecutors showed before the court of The Hague some photos showing metal fragments found in the rebate of the device and in the bodies of victims of MH17.

Research has shown that these metals come from one and the same buk missile. According to the OM, investigative wishes of the defense to find out whether MH17 was shot down by a fighter must therefore be rejected.

In addition, the statement by Sabine ten Doesschate, one of the lawyers of suspect Oleg Pulatov, that a buk missile can travel a maximum distance of 55 kilometers and not 36 as the Public Prosecution Service has stated is incorrect.

However, the prosecutor stated that the type of buk missile that the defense is referring to is not the buk missile with which MH17 was brought down. That type of buk missile does have a maximum range of 36 kilometers, according to the Public Prosecution Service.

The Public Prosecution Service did, however, agree to the request for further investigation into the location from which the buk missile would have been fired. The PPS assumes that this is an agricultural field near Pervomaiskyi. Expert findings can then be juxtaposed.


Link

It is the court that will decide which investigation wishes will be granted. The court will announce its decisions on July 3.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:23 pm

The Netherlands sues Russia for a human rights court to take down MH17

The cabinet decided on Friday to take Russia to the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) because of the downing of MH17 in July 2014. With this, the Netherlands supports the individual complaints that are pending here, it is reported.

"Achieving justice for 298 victims of the downing of flight MH17 and their relatives is and remains the highest priority for the cabinet," said foreign minister Stef Blok in a statement. "With the step we are taking today, by bringing a case to the ECtHR and thereby supporting the complaints of the next of kin as much as possible, we are getting closer to our goal."

The Netherlands has previously held Russia liable for the Russians' share in taking down the flight. The so-called state complaint must lead to the fact that the information the Netherlands has in the case will also become available for the cases of the next of kin.

"In this way, the Netherlands can best support the affairs of the relatives. In addition, the Netherlands also represents all 298 victims of the downing of flight MH17 and their relatives." The cases of the next of kin can lead to compensation, if the human rights court sees enough evidence in the role of Russia.

The criminal case against three Russians and a Ukrainian for their role in the downing of the flight started earlier this year. The men have a share in the deaths of the 298 occupants, according to the Public Prosecution Service (OM). The case will be resumed on August 31.


Link in Dutch

The trail of the 3 Russians and one Ukrainer will continue on August 31st. Some request for new investigations from the defense has been granted and will be examined, some have been dismissed and a decision on the most peculiar ones - examine alternative theories yet again, has been postponed until the defense will make those scenario's more plausible.

The trail of the family members against Russia has now been strengthened by the Netherlands joining the family members with the European Court of Human Rights.

I am not sure what the status is of the case The Netherlands versus Russia in the liable-case.
 
tu204
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The trail of the family members against Russia has now been strengthened by the Netherlands joining the family members with the European Court of Human Rights.

I am not sure what the status is of the case The Netherlands versus Russia in the liable-case.


ECHR has no jurisdiction in Russia and for Russians.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:56 pm

tu204 wrote:
ECHR has no jurisdiction in Russia and for Russians.


Not true, you can find out why on the discussion thread.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:51 am

The barrister had a conversation with his client in Russia. And he says he is willing to explain himself in court, his lawyers advised him not to, he will of course be arrested when he is in the Netherlands.

Lawyer: Pulatov denies role in downing MH17 and is willing to explain

Oleg Pulatov has announced in a personal conversation with his lawyers that he has no knowledge whatsoever about the crash of flight MH17 in 2014. His lawyer Sabine ten Doesschate told the court of The Hague on Monday. The man is willing to make a statement.

Ten Doesschate said when the MH17 process was resumed that she and her colleague Boudewijn van Eijck have now been in Russia and had personal contact for the first time. Ten Doesschate told the court that the conversation with Pulatov "has led to many new insights" and how "certain facts should be interpreted differently from what the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) has done". She says there are inaccuracies in the file and that it is incomplete.

Pulatov has announced that he has nothing to do with "ordering, monitoring, hiding and transporting the rifle rocket", adds Ten Doesschate. Just as he wasn't involved in the firing of the stoop missile.

After the disaster, Pulatov says he saw the fragments of the Malaysia Airlines plane and the bodies of victims "and found this terrible".

The man would also be willing to make a statement in court, but his lawyers have advised against this because he will be immediately detained. "That is why we have to determine a moment and way in which he can tell his story", says Ten Doesschate.

Investigation team shows faces of four suspects in MH17 disaster Investigation team shows faces of four suspects in MH17 disaster

OM: Tap calls prove Pulatov's involvement

The Public Prosecution Service (OM) says that Pulatov did play a role in guarding the launch site and says he has evidence of this in the form of tap conversations. It can be heard, among other things, that co-suspect Sergey Dubinskiy tells Pulatov that a stoop missile is on its way.

On the day of the disaster, July 17, Pulatov says a Ukrainian military plane has been shot down. However, this has not happened. According to the defense, the question is how these conversations should be interpreted. They do acknowledge that it is Pulatov who can be heard on the sound recordings


Link in Dutch

So, the defendant, Oleg Pulatov, denies being involved, the public defenders say he is and have proof to back this up. Most surprisingly, he does not. deny it. was him on the telephone call which was intercepted.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:00 pm

Putin's Russia has walked away from talks with the Netherlands and Australia over compensation for the shooting down of the MH17.

Link in Dutch

The Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs said on Thursday that further talks with the Netherlands and Australia about the downing of flight MH17 in July 2014 are "pointless", because both countries are "biased and follow a certain political agenda".


So the discussion broke down after 1,5years of talk.
 
Newark727
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:02 pm

Ah yes, the well-known political bias against shooting down civilian airliners. :roll:
 
alfa164
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:42 pm

Newark727 wrote:
Ah yes, the well-known political bias against shooting down civilian airliners. :roll:


A bias that apparently doesn't exist in "Mother Russia"...

;)
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:08 am

Substantive handling of the MH17 criminal case has started: you can expect this
Who are the four suspects in the MH17 trial?
Rebel leader Igor Girkin
Girkin's right-hand man Sergey Dubinsky
Assistant Oleg Pulatov
Garrison Commander Leonid Kharchenko
What can we expect this week? The hearing will be held in the extra-secure court at Schiphol. There is a good chance that none of these suspects will make an appearance. Only suspect Pulatov is represented by lawyers. It concerns the lawyers Boudewijn van Eijck and Sabine ten Doesschate. They work together with a Russian lawyer.

Each session day is broadcast live via a live stream. This is clicked on average several thousand times a day, with a peak to 30,000 times on the first day. Most viewers come from the Netherlands, Russia and Ukraine. Also, many viewers log in from the United Kingdom, Australia and the United States.

The process surrounding the downing of MH17 is very extensive and is also seen as a monster process. The file of the criminal case comprises more than 40,000 pages. That's more than a hundred files. The file also contains references to thousands of multimedia files such as photos, videos and websites.

What has happened around the trial until this week: On March 9, 2020, the District Court of The Hague started the sample trial. In more than a year, several preparatory sessions took place and last month there was also an inspection of the reconstruction of the aircraft at the army base in Gilze-Rijen.

Session days are currently planned until mid-November, but the case will most likely continue in 2022. In September, the court set aside a number of weeks for the right to speak for next of kin. It is currently expected that a few dozen of the approximately six hundred relatives will want to make use of this. The next of kin are represented by a team of lawyers, united in the Legal Aid Team.

After hearing the relatives, the Public Prosecution Service will hold the inquest. The defense will then submit a plea, which is expected in the spring of 2022.


Source: in Dutch

Good to see we move to the next phase of the trial, Let's see what evidence the prosecution presents and the defense has to offer. 40.000pages is a lot of information, not everything will be presented during a court case, the Judges have read the complete dossier of course and will only discuss the points they feel need to be clarified.
 
petertenthije
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:01 am

Dutchy wrote:
the District Court of The Hague started the sample trial.

Interesting translation, you used an auto-translator like Google probably?

There is no sample trial, what they said is monsterproces. Proces being trial, monster can translate as sample but also as, well, monster. Or in simple terms: massive trial.
 
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:14 am

petertenthije wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
the District Court of The Hague started the sample trial.

Interesting translation, you used an auto-translator like Google probably?

There is no sample trial, what they said is monsterproces. Proces being trial, monster can translate as sample but also as, well, monster. Or in simple terms: massive trial.


Google translate, indeed. :roll:
 
RJWNL
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:11 pm

The final reply by the defence won’t be until next spring but we shouldn’t expect too much from it as 3 out of the 4 suspects chose not to represent themselves and the only defense of the 4th seems to be he has absolutely nothing to do with it. More interesting will be the response out of Moscow as the evidence is presented.
 
 
tommy1808
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Thu Sep 02, 2021 4:53 pm

Dutchy wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Interesting translation, you used an auto-translator like Google probably?

There is no sample trial, what they said is monsterproces. Proces being trial, monster can translate as sample but also as, well, monster. Or in simple terms: massive trial.


Google translate, indeed. :roll:


Use deepl instead. Makes you wonder what Google spend all that money on.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17-trail, part 1

Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:56 pm

Today the court announced the timetable for the remainder of the trail. The verdict of the MH17 trial will be on either September 22nd or November 17th or December 15th 2022. In November this year, the public defenders will announce what they think the sentence should be and in March 2022 the barristers will have their say on the matter at hand.

Link

In the next 3 weeks, the victim's relatives have a chance to speak in court.

It will be a while before the verdict is announced.

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