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MIflyer12
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Re: How could airbus get around the 10% WTO Tariffs?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:22 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Perhaps the best way is, to put the tariffs on the USA wares and use them to pay the 10 % tariff of airplanes into the USA.


That statement reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of how tariffs work and are paid. Tariffs are paid by the importer. That might be Delta, if Delta buys directly from Airbus SE. It might some some local American Airbus entity (Airbus USA?) if there is a transfer sale from Airbus SE to Airbus USA (then to Delta). Tariffs are paid TO the government. If an EU government turns around and hands tariff moneys to Airbus -- that's just more illegal aid.

Reuters had a very good timeline of EU aid to Airbus and the progression through the WTO. The U.S. case against EU aid to Airbus has gone all the way through findings and WTO approval of counter-veiling tariffs. The EU case against Washington State aid to Boeing has not. There were years and years of determinations by the WTO that some forms of EU aid to Airbus were illegal.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-wto- ... SKBN1WH198

To the OP's question: Aircraft assembled in Mobile are tariff-exempt as a consideration to the ~1,000 Alabama employees, not because the aircraft there assembled have enough American content (or North American content under NAFTA) to be considered American-made. Ten guys just painting fully-assembled A350s in Mobile wouldn't get the same courtesy. Tariff classifications can be very complicated - and surgically applied. Any clever idea by Airbus will be undone by the stroke of a pen. Now, if Airbus wants to invest $1.5 Billion to start an A330neo line for the 33 more DL aircraft on order I'm confident those could also be tariff-exempted.
 
leghorn
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:13 pm

M O'L says he expects Boeing to eat any tariff on 737 orders.

Boeing going to Govt. for support of their interests has become like a small businessman going to Mafia for protection.
They might give you "protection" but their interests and your interests do not align.
Current Government just want headlines to show the uncritical public they are big and tough and have power unlike the weak guys in the last Administration or the opposition.
You'll get enough dumb voters thinking the current regime are guarding their interests. If you are in the business of getting re-elected so that you can control the purse strings that is all you need. You don't need to produce positive results for the U.S. economy.

Last time I heard the UAW workers are on obscene packages so that is just protectionism and with the whole gamut of social protection measures across Europe it isn't exactly like the Europeans have a competitive labour or regulatory environment. They just make cars and planes and what not that people want to buy and are willing to pay a premium for them.

I think Boeing have learnt that running to Government for protection is the last thing they should be doing until the current Administration leaves office. They've had A220 driven in to the arms of Airbus, their European customers telling them that they'll be paying the tariff if it is introduced...a tariff that wasn't going to be introduced until U.S. introduced one. This administration is not their friend.
 
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Erebus
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Re: How could airbus get around the 10% WTO Tariffs?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:14 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
That statement reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of how tariffs work and are paid. Tariffs are paid by the importer. That might be Delta, if Delta buys directly from Airbus SE.


This is essentially punishing the US airlines instead of Airbus/EU. They are committed by contracts to buy them, now at higher cost but Airbus and EU don't get to foot the bill. Or does Delta get a rebate for the tariffed amount from Airbus?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:34 am

Erebus wrote:
Or does Delta get a rebate for the tariffed amount from Airbus?


I imagine it would be fairly trivial for Airbus to apply additional discounts to services, parts and training if necessary.
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StarAC17
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:57 pm

leghorn wrote:
Last time I heard the UAW workers are on obscene packages so that is just protectionism and with the whole gamut of social protection measures across Europe it isn't exactly like the Europeans have a competitive labour or regulatory environment. They just make cars and planes and what not that people want to buy and are willing to pay a premium for them.



If European products are of high quality and the labour is expensive (which it is) and people still want to buy it and pay the associated premium for it then by definition that is a competitive product.
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Subwayfan1998
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:12 pm

This will be a TOTAL Economic Disaster, like this kind of Tariffs had causes the Great Depression.
 
ItnStln
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:12 am

Subwayfan1998 wrote:
This will be a TOTAL Economic Disaster, like this kind of Tariffs had causes the Great Depression.

No it won't, there's no need to fear monger.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:17 pm

2 Dec 2019 - Reuters: WTO rejects EU bid to stop U.S. tariffs over Airbus

It's done - stick a fork in it. (Until the WTO rules on the EU counter-case, anyway.)

PARIS/BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The World Trade Organization on Monday rejected European Union claims that it no longer provides subsidies to planemaker Airbus (AIR.PA), underscoring tariffs recently imposed by the United States on European goods.

A new compliance report from the Geneva trade watchdog found that the Airbus A380 and A350 jetliners continue to be subsidized as a result of past European government loans.

While the WTO no longer faulted Airbus for causing lost sales to Boeing with the A380, which is no longer marketed, it ruled that the superjumbo would cause market-share damage to Boeing for as long as it is produced and delivered.

Airbus plans to shut production in mid-2021.

The WTO appeared to strengthen findings against the A350, saying it had both cost sales and damaged Boeing’s market-share prospects - a process called impedance - in the busier twin-engined long-haul market where Boeing offers its 787 Dreamliner.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:53 pm

Good news.
 
ItnStln
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:39 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
2 Dec 2019 - Reuters: WTO rejects EU bid to stop U.S. tariffs over Airbus

It's done - stick a fork in it. (Until the WTO rules on the EU counter-case, anyway.)

PARIS/BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The World Trade Organization on Monday rejected European Union claims that it no longer provides subsidies to planemaker Airbus (AIR.PA), underscoring tariffs recently imposed by the United States on European goods.

A new compliance report from the Geneva trade watchdog found that the Airbus A380 and A350 jetliners continue to be subsidized as a result of past European government loans.

While the WTO no longer faulted Airbus for causing lost sales to Boeing with the A380, which is no longer marketed, it ruled that the superjumbo would cause market-share damage to Boeing for as long as it is produced and delivered.

Airbus plans to shut production in mid-2021.

The WTO appeared to strengthen findings against the A350, saying it had both cost sales and damaged Boeing’s market-share prospects - a process called impedance - in the busier twin-engined long-haul market where Boeing offers its 787 Dreamliner.

Will you post the link, I can't find it.
 
ShamrockBoi330
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:32 am

US late this even announced tariffs increasing from 10% to 15% on EU built aircraft effective 3/18

https://news.yahoo.com/u-raises-tariffs ... 38315.html
 
tommy1808
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:27 am

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
US late this even announced tariffs increasing from 10% to 15% on EU built aircraft effective 3/18

https://news.yahoo.com/u-raises-tariffs ... 38315.html


Guess some lobbyist cried for help after Boeing realized their be delivering hundreds of MAX so late that some customers may reconsider the type...

https://leehamnews.com/2020/02/14/boein ... -analysis/

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Dutchy
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:37 am

Will there any ruling soon on the Boeing case with illegal subsidies for them?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Bordeauxline
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:53 am

I am just wondering about this new tariff on just airplanes : is this applying to older order not yet delivered ?
And in this case, this cost will be taken by the customer or will Airbus accept to take some in charge, knowing they have a full backlog (and even more) outside of USA ?

It seems to me this could hurt some US airliners quite a lot.
 
olle
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:45 pm

the A320 and A220 while assembled in USA should not be any problems. WB does.

Dangerous game while EU can easily pay back with the same currency and then Boeing does not have any assembly in EU.
 
ShamrockBoi330
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:02 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Will there any ruling soon on the Boeing case with illegal subsidies for them?


May June timeframes apparently
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:06 pm

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Will there any ruling soon on the Boeing case with illegal subsidies for them?


May June timeframes apparently


So then we'll see retaliation by the EU. Boeing planes 15% more expensive and Boeing is in a pickle as it is.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
wingman
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:37 pm

As of this week's news that MAX scheduling is getting pushed out to Q3 and very possibly Q4, I think the odds of Boeing declaring bankruptcy have gone up considerably. It'll change the entire picture in regard to this WTO back and forth. I think the break up will see Defense go to a smaller player like NG and Commercial will stand alone with a massive government loan regime to launch a whole new family on our collective backs. I don't anyone letting it collapse into oblivion and I don't see how else they'll come from this colossal laps in judgement. Everyone on the Board and in senior management anywhere close to the MAX design and rollout needs to be gone, like a bad cancer. As to the WTO, it already has zero impact on national champions in China, so when it comes to the crown jewels of the US and Europe we might as well all admit that countries will never play by the rules in certain cases. Sad but that's just the reality of the new world order.
 
anrec80
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:08 pm

wingman wrote:
As of this week's news that MAX scheduling is getting pushed out to Q3 and very possibly Q4, I think the odds of Boeing declaring bankruptcy have gone up considerably. It'll change the entire picture in regard to this WTO back and forth.

I think the break up will see Defense go to a smaller player like NG and Commercial will stand alone with a massive government loan regime to launch a whole new family on our collective backs. I don't anyone letting it collapse into oblivion and I don't see how else they'll come from this colossal laps in judgement. Everyone on the Board and in senior management anywhere close to the MAX design and rollout needs to be gone, like a bad cancer.


Nobody will let a company like Boeing go down, obviously. USA would rather sanction Airbus so that Boeing can get even more orders in Europe, and hence EU has no chance in winning in this trade war. And given that all the rules have been thrown in the garbage now, I do see the latter as a possibility.

wingman wrote:
As to the WTO, it already has zero impact on national champions in China, so when it comes to the crown jewels of the US and Europe we might as well all admit that countries will never play by the rules in certain cases. Sad but that's just the reality of the new world order.


Yepp. Welcome to the new world!
 
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SAS A340
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:50 pm

I see 4 uggly years between US And Europe, were contrys has to look at other options to the US where there are some. Sadly.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:02 pm

Trade wars are a good thing, and even better if you can inflame nationalistic passions, split up old trade associations. And wars are even better.
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wingman
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:17 pm

It was a good run from 1945 to the early 2000's, probably the best the world has ever experienced. But with China just laughing its way to global domination while everyone turns a blind eye to their wholesale theft of technology and Russia giving up on any pretense of being a productive member of the global order there's no real way to keep all this negative pressure inside the cooker. I'll give China this at least, their contribution to wealth creation and growth offsets the theft to such a degree it's what makes us all turn the blind eye. I can only hope for the sake of our kids and grandkids that we never degenerate to Russia's level of just straight up sabotage of every core value Europe and the US (and Canada, Australia etc.) worked so hard to establish. We all did and will do some shitty things, but when you look at the 60+ year run it was a stunning achievement in fair and equitable growth for an incredible amount of people across the globe.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:00 pm

wingman - agreed!
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olle
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:54 pm

wingman wrote:
It was a good run from 1945 to the early 2000's, probably the best the world has ever experienced. But with China just laughing its way to global domination while everyone turns a blind eye to their wholesale theft of technology and Russia giving up on any pretense of being a productive member of the global order there's no real way to keep all this negative pressure inside the cooker. I'll give China this at least, their contribution to wealth creation and growth offsets the theft to such a degree it's what makes us all turn the blind eye. I can only hope for the sake of our kids and grandkids that we never degenerate to Russia's level of just straight up sabotage of every core value Europe and the US (and Canada, Australia etc.) worked so hard to establish. We all did and will do some shitty things, but when you look at the 60+ year run it was a stunning achievement in fair and equitable growth for an incredible amount of people across the globe.



USA and EU is the natural allied. The game played by current USA administration only favors China.
 
Pyrex
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:04 am

olle wrote:
wingman wrote:
It was a good run from 1945 to the early 2000's, probably the best the world has ever experienced. But with China just laughing its way to global domination while everyone turns a blind eye to their wholesale theft of technology and Russia giving up on any pretense of being a productive member of the global order there's no real way to keep all this negative pressure inside the cooker. I'll give China this at least, their contribution to wealth creation and growth offsets the theft to such a degree it's what makes us all turn the blind eye. I can only hope for the sake of our kids and grandkids that we never degenerate to Russia's level of just straight up sabotage of every core value Europe and the US (and Canada, Australia etc.) worked so hard to establish. We all did and will do some shitty things, but when you look at the 60+ year run it was a stunning achievement in fair and equitable growth for an incredible amount of people across the globe.



USA and EU is the natural allied. The game played by current USA administration only favors China.


And by playing games do you mean the EU straight up sabotaging the Boeing-Embraer deal while allowing Airbus to take over the C-Series?
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WIederling
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Re: Updated: US to Impose Tariffs on EU Goods After WTO’s Airbus Ruling

Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:25 am

Pyrex wrote:
And by playing games do you mean the EU straight up sabotaging the Boeing-Embraer deal while allowing Airbus to take over the C-Series?


Brazil as a country isn't too happy about the deal either.
Only the US leaning new right wing government is "pro".
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leghorn
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Updated: US increases EU aircraft tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:16 pm

https://www.aviation24.be/manufacturers ... om-the-eu/

Hopefully the WTO will approve counter tariffs in June and it ends up moot but if it continues can Airbus counteract in different ways such as bidding low but not below cost to win non-US Airlines over to their type, acquiring the old Boeing airframes themselves or through lease companies and then flooding the American fleets which operate Boeing with those secondhand airframes resulting in Boeing not getting fresh orders from their US Customers. If Airbus are going to have to pay a few million per airframe then they might as well use that few million to piss in the pool in Boeing's backyard which is their domestic market.
Those secondhand Boeing planes shouldn't be subject to tariffs when re-imported to the U.S.
Last edited by SQ22 on Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated after merging threads
 
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Polot
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:20 pm

leghorn wrote:
acquiring the old Boeing airframes themselves or through lease companies and then flooding the American fleets which operate Boeing with those secondhand airframes resulting in Boeing not getting fresh orders from their US Customers.

That would effect Airbus as well. Most US Boeing operators are also Airbus operators too. Why would you buy new Airbuses if the company is flooding the market with cheap planes? Airbus only customers wouldn’t be happy that the company is flooding their competitors with a ton of cheap capacity while they have to pay more to compete.
 
leghorn
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:25 pm

If you control who gets the traded-in planes then it will affect Airbus less. They can still sell tariff free A220s and A32Xs to US. They'll just direct the traded-in planes to large operators of Boeing planes who aren't ready to put in an order for Airbus product.
Developing my train of thought it might be a case of targetting the likes of 777 and 787 operators with inducements to switch to new A330 and A350 planes and then flooding specific carriers in the US with those secondhand airframes at prices which are too good to refuse.
 
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Polot
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:33 pm

leghorn wrote:
Developing my train of thought it might be a case of targetting the likes of 777 and 787 operators with inducements to switch to new A330 and A350 planes and then flooding specific carriers in the US with those secondhand airframes at prices which are too good to refuse.

Lol and you think those operators that just spent a ton of money on a bunch of new A330s/A350s and switching over costs would be happy that Airbus just armed their American competition with 787/777s at “prices too good to refuse?”

Would this include Delta- will Airbus give them 787s at prices too good to refuse so that they can defer relatively expensive A330/A350 deliveries? Or are they going to piss Delta off by selectively refusing to give them cheap Boeing wide bodies and just make Delta compete against cheap UA/AA 787/777s?

What you are suggesting is going to steer business away from Airbus, as airlines will fear that the company will ultimately screw them over.

I said yesterday in another thread that A.net is prone to theatrics/hysterics. This is a perfect example.
 
leghorn
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:38 pm

Yes, I do think those operators can be induced to buy better new hardware. If the the price is right and the planes they are disposing of don't go back in to direct competition they will not look a gift horse in the mouth.

Your derisive comments aren't conducive to open and free discussion...attend to that.
 
StTim
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:40 pm

I wonder what justification is being used for the hike?
 
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Aesma
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:42 pm

StTim wrote:
I wonder what justification is being used for the hike?


Probably that the current tariffs aren't working.
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WIederling
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:43 pm

leghorn wrote:
Developing my train of thought it might be a case of targetting the likes of 777 and 787 operators with inducements to switch to new A330 and A350 planes and then flooding specific carriers in the US with those secondhand airframes at prices which are too good to refuse.


That in a way is Boeing established MoO:

Sell 777 as displacement while taking A340 of the hands of a customer
even ones that haven't been delivered yet aka "new".

Expect some "Jovi non Bovi" screaming match :-)
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leghorn
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:50 pm

StTim wrote:
I wonder what justification is being used for the hike?

basicall it is the US Trade Representatives Office's prerogative. According to the WTO ruling they can increase up to 100% per airframe if they so wish until the $7.5 billion of fine is recouped or at least that is what this CNBC report says; https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/15/us-rais ... idies.html

Of course the U.S consumer ultimately pays which is why they aren't going for the full 100%. See the link above where most representations against the increased tariffs are coming from U.S. business.
 
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Polot
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:51 pm

leghorn wrote:
Yes, I do think those operators can be induced to buy better new hardware. If the the price is right and the planes they are disposing of don't go back in to direct competition they will not look a gift horse in the mouth.

Your derisive comments aren't conducive to open and free discussion...attend to that.

Except companies will see the prices that Airbus is offering to American carriers and demand those.

Everything you are suggesting is short term harm for Boeing in the US but long term gain. When the tariff issue is resolved US carriers are not going to return all this cheap capacity and start ordering Airbuses. They are going to keep them, continue paying Airbus peanuts and paying Boeing for support items, and when time comes to expand the fleet with new planes Airbus now has to break into airlines with large(r) efficient 737/787/777 fleets. Meanwhile Airbus only operators like JetBlue have to contend with competition that just got super cheap planes. Sure hope that doesn’t effect their finances and ability to pay for all their new Airbuses!

Companies behave far more rationally than you suggest.
Last edited by Polot on Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Draken21fx
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:52 pm

Aesma wrote:
StTim wrote:
I wonder what justification is being used for the hike?


Probably that the current tariffs aren't working.


www.aviation24.be wrote:
Airbus hopes that USTR’s position will change, especially when the WTO will authorize the EU to impose tariffs on Boeing aircraft, including the 737Max, 787 and 777 aircraft in the May/June timeframe.


It is like chasing your own tail. EU imposes taxes on Boeing aircraft (note: Boeing doesnt have a facility in EU), Boeing is forced to bite the bullet to cover the costs of the hike, everyone loses. Does it make any sense?
 
leghorn
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:59 pm

Polot wrote:
Everything you are suggesting is short term harm for Boeing in the US but long term gain. When the tariff issue is resolved US carriers are not going to return all this cheap capacity and start ordering Airbuses. They are going to keep them, continue paying Airbus peanuts and paying Boeing for support items, and when time comes to expand the fleet with new planes Airbus now has to break into airlines with large(r) efficient 737/787/777 fleets.

You overstate the importance of U.S. to Airbus. They can afford to piss in that pool if it puts their U.S. based competitor at a disproportionate financial disadvantage.
Airbus in the last year has shown itself to be a highly pragmatic operator.
 
leghorn
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:01 pm

Polot wrote:
Except companies will see the prices that Airbus is offering to American carriers and demand those.

How well is "demanding" X amount of planes at price Y from Airbus working out for Ryanair at the moment?
 
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Polot
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:08 pm

leghorn wrote:
Polot wrote:
Everything you are suggesting is short term harm for Boeing in the US but long term gain. When the tariff issue is resolved US carriers are not going to return all this cheap capacity and start ordering Airbuses. They are going to keep them, continue paying Airbus peanuts and paying Boeing for support items, and when time comes to expand the fleet with new planes Airbus now has to break into airlines with large(r) efficient 737/787/777 fleets.

You overstate the importance of U.S. to Airbus. They can afford to piss in that pool if it puts their U.S. based competitor at a disproportionate financial disadvantage.
Airbus in the last year has shown itself to be a highly pragmatic operator.

The US is one of the largest aviation markets in the world. Some of Airbus’s largest and best customers are in the US. Some of the worlds largest and currently most profitable airlines in the world are in the US. Airbus is not going to nuke their position there.

leghorn wrote:
Polot wrote:
Except companies will see the prices that Airbus is offering to American carriers and demand those.

How well is "demanding" X amount of planes at price Y from Airbus working out for Ryanair at the moment?

It’s not...which just means they would order Boeing. Is Airbus going to play hardball with every airline in the world just because of US tariffs? Screwing over Boeing like you think this would do would just mean Boeing will be offering great prices to international customers.
 
leghorn
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:19 pm

https://www.statista.com/statistics/587 ... of-airbus/

Airbus U.S. customers can be mostly served by their plants in the U.S.
The U.S. isn't as important as you'd like to make it out to be to Airbus.
They don't go from free sales to no sales just because tariffs are introduced.
They are not as dependent upon the indulgence of US government as Boeing is dependent on free trade with Europe.
If Boeing had hedged their bets with an assembly line outside of the US they wouldn't be as vulnerable as they are now.
 
WIederling
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:30 pm

leghorn wrote:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/587230/worldwide-orders-and-deliveries-and-aircrafts-in-operation-of-airbus/

Airbus U.S. customers can be mostly served by their plants in the U.S.
The U.S. isn't as important as you'd like to make it out to be to Airbus.
They don't go from free sales to no sales just because tariffs are introduced.
They are not as dependent upon the indulgence of US government as Boeing is dependent on free trade with Europe.
If Boeing had hedged their bets with an assembly line outside of the US they wouldn't be as vulnerable as they are now.


What I do wonder:
How will foreign ( here US content ) be valued on return to the homeland ?
Talk is Airbus products are 50%++-- US content by value )
Murphy is an optimist
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:42 pm

leghorn wrote:
StTim wrote:
I wonder what justification is being used for the hike?

basicall it is the US Trade Representatives Office's prerogative. According to the WTO ruling they can increase up to 100% per airframe if they so wish until the $7.5 billion of fine is recouped or at least that is what this CNBC report says; https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/15/us-rais ... idies.html

Of course the U.S consumer ultimately pays which is why they aren't going for the full 100%. See the link above where most representations against the increased tariffs are coming from U.S. business.


But... they removed the tariff on prune juice. Harder hit was European butcher knife makers as they got slapped with a 25% tariff.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:53 pm

leghorn wrote:
StTim wrote:
I wonder what justification is being used for the hike?

basicall it is the US Trade Representatives Office's prerogative. According to the WTO ruling they can increase up to 100% per airframe if they so wish until the $7.5 billion of fine is recouped or at least that is what this CNBC report says; https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/15/us-rais ... idies.html

Of course the U.S consumer ultimately pays...


You're ignoring price elasticity of demand. U.S. carriers paying the tariffs can't fully pass on the cost of tariffs to consumers. Anybody take an Intermediate Microeconomics or Public Finance class?

leghorn wrote:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/587230/worldwide-orders-and-deliveries-and-aircrafts-in-operation-of-airbus/

Airbus U.S. customers can be mostly served by their plants in the U.S.


Airbus isn't building A350s nor 339s in the U.S., and certainly won't be in the short term. On a sales-weighted basis across 350/330/320, how much is built in Mobile? (Not as much as you want to think. Of the last ten 321s delivered to DL, 4 still came from Hamburg.)
Last edited by MIflyer12 on Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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par13del
Posts: 10337
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:54 pm

Why is this even an issue, all that is going on is that the USA has a 6 month or so head start.
If as expected, Airbus wins in the next WTO round, all they have to do is to apply their tariffs on USA goods and the world will be in balance again.
 
leghorn
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:05 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
leghorn wrote:
StTim wrote:
I wonder what justification is being used for the hike?

basicall it is the US Trade Representatives Office's prerogative. According to the WTO ruling they can increase up to 100% per airframe if they so wish until the $7.5 billion of fine is recouped or at least that is what this CNBC report says; https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/15/us-rais ... idies.html

Of course the U.S consumer ultimately pays...


You're ignoring price elasticity of demand. U.S. carriers paying the tariffs can't fully pass on the cost of tariffs to consumers. Anybody take an Intermediate Microeconomics or Public Finance class?

Think that one through...somebody in the U.S. always eats the increased cost. Do you think Boeing are going to do any favours to their perceived captive audience. Already seen with u.s. steel tariffs in the recent past. A plane which has run out of hours has to be replaced...there is no intersection of supply and demand curves per say.
Last edited by leghorn on Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Noshow
Posts: 1623
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Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:07 pm

It will harm US suppliers in any way.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 732
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:12 pm

Airbus have a fantastic opportunity to put out a message to the effect of "The US government is doing all it can to make your airlines fly planes like the 737 MAX rather than the best plan of their choice", regardless of any inaccuracies in it.

The EU could/should also amend its "dumping" rules to mirror those of the US, which many think is already the case even though it is not.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 24388
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:44 pm

leghorn wrote:
Airbus U.S. customers can be mostly served by their plants in the U.S.

Great, a plane assembled by US workers with large amounts of US content and sold on US soil is even better than 15% tariff on imported airplanes.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
airzona11
Posts: 1756
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: US increases tariffs to 15%

Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:50 pm

Revelation wrote:
leghorn wrote:
Airbus U.S. customers can be mostly served by their plants in the U.S.

Great, a plane assembled by US workers with large amounts of US content and sold on US soil is even better than 15% tariff on imported airplanes.


Which is a win for Airbus and US consumers.

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