sonicruiser
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Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:59 am

Turkey, which already hosts 4 million Syrian refugees is facing increasing pressure to accept as many as 2 million more refugees fleeing a Russian assault on Idlib. However, Ankara has said that Turkey is full to maximum capacity and cannot accept even 5 more refugees.

Stressed to the absolute limit, Turkey demanded that Russia halt its assault on Idlib immediately to avoid displacing Idlib's population fleeing towards Turkey's border. However, the talks between Turkey and Russia failed, resulting in a sharp escalation of tensions. Ankara threatened to use force to expel the Russian assault on Idlib if it did not withdraw immediately and prevent the displacement of any more refugees from Idlib fleeing towards Turkey's border. After Turkey deployed thousands of troops and hundreds of tanks in preparation to launch a Turkish offensive to drive out Russia from Idlib, a Russian airstrike on Thursday killed 2 Turkish soldiers targeting a Russian jet. The Turkish defense ministry has requested Patriot missiles from the US but has also said it will activate its S400's. Russia remained unreceptive to Turkey's demands to halt its assault on Idlib immediately and avoid displacing Idlib's population of nearly 900K stating that Russia will only stop when it regains the full territorial integrity of Syria. Amidst a looming humanitarian catastrophe, Trump has publicly supported Erdogan's attempts to use force to prevent Russia from displacing refugees fleeing Idlib and adding 2 million more to the refugee crisis. However, it is unclear if Turkey's use of force to halt Russia has worked at all as Ankara finds itself strained to accept more refugees while Assad's forces and Russia continue to advance towards Idlib at lightning speed, leaving Turkey in a perilous and weak position. This leaves almost a million refugees fleeing away from Idlib caught in the middle, as Turkey which hosts 4 million refugees is already stressed to the limit, but staying in Idlib is certain death as Russia unleashes a devastating blitzkrieg air campaign in the province. With Turkey full and Idlib a death sentence, there is nowhere to escape, leaving both the refugees and Erdogan in a major dilemma.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/worl ... idlib.html

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/we-d ... e-refugees

https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origin ... nkara.html

https://www.insider.com/turkey-idlib-sy ... sis-2020-2
"Martin Luther King wasn't assassinated because he was dreaming. He was assassinated because he woke up."-Louis Farrakhan
 
bennett123
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:39 am

Alternatively, he could open the door to the West and encourage them to go to Europe.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:04 am

Devil's dilemma, especially that the Assad regime with their Putins regime's assistance, is not backing down and completely disregards Syrian civilians.
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tu204
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:09 am

bennett123 wrote:
Alternatively, he could open the door to the West and encourage them to go to Europe.


Isn't that exactly what Erdogan threatened in the last year or so? Why not make good on his word?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
bennett123
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:05 am

Due to go to Istanbul and Antalya in April.

Wonder what the situation will be by then?.
 
maint123
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:23 pm

Erdogan has no business interfering in syria. He is delusional about Turkey's capabilities.
 
Jetty
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:28 pm

Europe hosts more than 4 million Turkish immigrants. Erdogan shouldn’t complain.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:39 pm

tu204 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Alternatively, he could open the door to the West and encourage them to go to Europe.


Isn't that exactly what Erdogan threatened in the last year or so? Why not make good on his word?


Russia is causing this refugee stream, do you have an opinion on that, before you want Erdogan to make it an EU problem? Why not letting them into Russia if you are so concerned with Syria?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:41 pm

Put them on trains and drop them in the EU. Simple solution.
 
bennett123
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:30 pm

Not saying that I want him to do that.
 
tu204
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:30 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Alternatively, he could open the door to the West and encourage them to go to Europe.


Isn't that exactly what Erdogan threatened in the last year or so? Why not make good on his word?


Russia is causing this refugee stream, do you have an opinion on that, before you want Erdogan to make it an EU problem? Why not letting them into Russia if you are so concerned with Syria?


Well I can't say that Russia is helping out with the refugee stream, thats the price to pay for solving the situation in Syria. What do you propose? Do nothing and leave the status quo? Nah...

As for your EU problems, to be honest don't care too much. The EU regimes were a big part in causing the problem in Syria and Libya with your views on how other should live, who is good and who is bad, so you can take in some refugees.

As for Russia taking in refugees, we took in more than enough Ukrainian refugees "fleeing Russia"...into Russia ;)
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:39 pm

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Isn't that exactly what Erdogan threatened in the last year or so? Why not make good on his word?


Russia is causing this refugee stream, do you have an opinion on that, before you want Erdogan to make it an EU problem? Why not letting them into Russia if you are so concerned with Syria?


Well I can't say that Russia is helping out with the refugee stream, that's the price to pay for solving the situation in Syria. What do you propose? Do nothing and leave the status quo? Nah...


No, you can't indeed, Russia is one of the causes of this refugee stream, not helping them. It is not the price the Putin regime is paying, no it is the Syrians, women and children. But indeed, "nah", Russia and the Assad regime does not care about Syrians only about power.

tu204 wrote:
As for your EU problems, to be honest don't care too much. The EU regimes were a big part in causing the problem in Syria and Libya with your views on how other should live, who is good and who is bad, so you can take in some refugees.


Factual wrong, or others might call it a straight out lie. And again Russia has a regime, Syria has a regime (= dictatorship), the EU has governments.

tu204 wrote:
As for Russia taking in refugees, we took in more than enough Ukrainian refugees "fleeing Russia"...into Russia ;)


No, you took part of Ukraine, that is not taking in refugees, that is land grabbing. As for the others, your Putin regime caused that problem and still does. If the Putin regime does not want any more Ukrainian refugees, then stop meddling in that country. Simple. isn't it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:28 am

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Russia is causing this refugee stream, do you have an opinion on that, before you want Erdogan to make it an EU problem? Why not letting them into Russia if you are so concerned with Syria?


Well I can't say that Russia is helping out with the refugee stream, that's the price to pay for solving the situation in Syria. What do you propose? Do nothing and leave the status quo? Nah...


No, you can't indeed, Russia is one of the causes of this refugee stream, not helping them. It is not the price the Putin regime is paying, no it is the Syrians, women and children. But indeed, "nah", Russia and the Assad regime does not care about Syrians only about power.

tu204 wrote:
As for your EU problems, to be honest don't care too much. The EU regimes were a big part in causing the problem in Syria and Libya with your views on how other should live, who is good and who is bad, so you can take in some refugees.


Factual wrong, or others might call it a straight out lie. And again Russia has a regime, Syria has a regime (= dictatorship), the EU has governments.

tu204 wrote:
As for Russia taking in refugees, we took in more than enough Ukrainian refugees "fleeing Russia"...into Russia ;)


No, you took part of Ukraine, that is not taking in refugees, that is land grabbing. As for the others, your Putin regime caused that problem and still does. If the Putin regime does not want any more Ukrainian refugees, then stop meddling in that country. Simple. isn't it.


2 - I see absolutely no difference. Its either Russian/EU regime, or Russian/EU government. Not much difference that I can see. Only that the Russian regime/government is capable of functioning independently, while the EU governments/regimes are to the most part vassals of the U.S.

3 - You haven't noticed the hundreds of thousands of refugees that fled to Russia from Eastern Ukraine after their coup? Even the UNHCR noticed and stopped whining about Russia's bad record with denying 95% of Refugee claims...
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:50 am

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Well I can't say that Russia is helping out with the refugee stream, that's the price to pay for solving the situation in Syria. What do you propose? Do nothing and leave the status quo? Nah...


No, you can't indeed, Russia is one of the causes of this refugee stream, not helping them. It is not the price the Putin regime is paying, no it is the Syrians, women and children. But indeed, "nah", Russia and the Assad regime does not care about Syrians only about power.

tu204 wrote:
As for your EU problems, to be honest don't care too much. The EU regimes were a big part in causing the problem in Syria and Libya with your views on how other should live, who is good and who is bad, so you can take in some refugees.


Factual wrong, or others might call it a straight out lie. And again Russia has a regime, Syria has a regime (= dictatorship), the EU has governments.

tu204 wrote:
As for Russia taking in refugees, we took in more than enough Ukrainian refugees "fleeing Russia"...into Russia ;)


No, you took part of Ukraine, that is not taking in refugees, that is land grabbing. As for the others, your Putin regime caused that problem and still does. If the Putin regime does not want any more Ukrainian refugees, then stop meddling in that country. Simple. isn't it.


2 - I see absolutely no difference. Its either Russian/EU regime, or Russian/EU government. Not much difference that I can see. Only that the Russian regime/government is capable of functioning independently, while the EU governments/regimes are to the most part vassals of the U.S.


Of course, you don't, the rest of the world does. Russia has got a totalitarian regime, the EU countries (there is no EU government) are democratic. Huge difference. Hence the correct term for the Putin government is a regime and for the EU countries have a government. If that is a source of embarrassment for you, so be it, it is a fact.

tu204 wrote:
3 - You haven't noticed the hundreds of thousands of refugees that fled to Russia from Eastern Ukraine after their coup? Even the UNHCR noticed and stopped whining about Russia's bad record with denying 95% of Refugee claims...


Not sure what you are saying. But the UNHCR says: Since 2014, our work in the country has been mainly part of inter-agency efforts by the United Nations, campaigning for, and responding to, the protection needs of 1.8 million internally displaced people (IDP) and others affected by the conflict. Thanks to the presence of UNHCR and partners in government-controlled and non-government-controlled areas, human rights violations and protection risks encountered by IDPs and others can be identified. So there are another 1,8million displaced persons as a direct response of the actions of the Putin regime.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:22 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

No, you can't indeed, Russia is one of the causes of this refugee stream, not helping them. It is not the price the Putin regime is paying, no it is the Syrians, women and children. But indeed, "nah", Russia and the Assad regime does not care about Syrians only about power.



Factual wrong, or others might call it a straight out lie. And again Russia has a regime, Syria has a regime (= dictatorship), the EU has governments.



No, you took part of Ukraine, that is not taking in refugees, that is land grabbing. As for the others, your Putin regime caused that problem and still does. If the Putin regime does not want any more Ukrainian refugees, then stop meddling in that country. Simple. isn't it.


2 - I see absolutely no difference. Its either Russian/EU regime, or Russian/EU government. Not much difference that I can see. Only that the Russian regime/government is capable of functioning independently, while the EU governments/regimes are to the most part vassals of the U.S.


Of course, you don't, the rest of the world does. Russia has got a totalitarian regime, the EU countries (there is no EU government) are democratic. Huge difference. Hence the correct term for the Putin government is a regime and for the EU countries have a government. If that is a source of embarrassment for you, so be it, it is a fact.

tu204 wrote:
3 - You haven't noticed the hundreds of thousands of refugees that fled to Russia from Eastern Ukraine after their coup? Even the UNHCR noticed and stopped whining about Russia's bad record with denying 95% of Refugee claims...


Not sure what you are saying. But the UNHCR says: Since 2014, our work in the country has been mainly part of inter-agency efforts by the United Nations, campaigning for, and responding to, the protection needs of 1.8 million internally displaced people (IDP) and others affected by the conflict. Thanks to the presence of UNHCR and partners in government-controlled and non-government-controlled areas, human rights violations and protection risks encountered by IDPs and others can be identified. So there are another 1,8million displaced persons as a direct response of the actions of the Putin regime.


1 - In both the EU (except for a few constitutional monarchies) and in Russia the head of state is elected by popular vote. So regimes or governments. Whatever floats your boat.

2 - I don't know what you couldn't find. Simple Google search along the lines of "Ukranian refugees Russia" gives you plenty of hits. So over 2,5 million fled to Russia with under one million actually bothering to register. Not many refusals from what I found, unlike the situation with refugees from Middle East/Asia/Africa where there was and I think still is over a 90% refusal rate.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Russia

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/ ... e-resource
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:15 pm

tu204 wrote:
1 - In both the EU (except for a few constitutional monarchies) and in Russia the head of state is elected by popular vote. So regimes or governments. Whatever floats your boat.


Elections doesn't mean you are a democracy, in Syria there were elections, in Russia there were elections, in North Korea were elections and they are not considered democracies. So simple: regime = no democracy, government = democracy.

tu204 wrote:
2 - I don't know what you couldn't find. Simple Google search along the lines of "Ukranian refugees Russia" gives you plenty of hits. So over 2,5 million fled to Russia with under one million actually bothering to register. Not many refusals from what I found, unlike the situation with refugees from Middle East/Asia/Africa where there was and I think still is over a 90% refusal rate.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Russia

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/ ... e-resource


Yes, Putin feels that Ukraine is part of Russia anyway, so sure, why not give them a Russian passport. Wasn't it in the news that they handed out Russian passports, as they did in Georgia?
And yes, Russia doesn't give a lot of people from other regions a refugee status. So all those Syrians that they have made a refugee, they take no responsibility for that. Good point!
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:58 pm

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Isn't that exactly what Erdogan threatened in the last year or so? Why not make good on his word?


Russia is causing this refugee stream, do you have an opinion on that, before you want Erdogan to make it an EU problem? Why not letting them into Russia if you are so concerned with Syria?


Well I can't say that Russia is helping out with the refugee stream, thats the price to pay for solving the situation in Syria. What do you propose? Do nothing and leave the status quo? Nah...


It's a civil war. Who is right and who is wrong is up for debate in such situations, for example in Russia, were the whites or the reds right ?

Syrians killing Syrians is bad enough, but why is Russia killing Syrians, exactly ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tu204
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:07 am

Aesma wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Russia is causing this refugee stream, do you have an opinion on that, before you want Erdogan to make it an EU problem? Why not letting them into Russia if you are so concerned with Syria?


Well I can't say that Russia is helping out with the refugee stream, thats the price to pay for solving the situation in Syria. What do you propose? Do nothing and leave the status quo? Nah...


It's a civil war. Who is right and who is wrong is up for debate in such situations, for example in Russia, were the whites or the reds right ?

Syrians killing Syrians is bad enough, but why is Russia killing Syrians, exactly ?


No clear answer on the Russian civil war, from me at least.
Both red and whites did some pretty crazy shit.

Why is Russia killing Syrians? Well the recognised government in Syria directly asked Russia for assistance, which is more than can be said about any western invasions in the last 50 years.

And just to note - a large portion of the targets taken out by Russia aren't Syrians. Quite a collection of fighters starting with Europeans, Africans, plenty of trigger happy Arabs and Central Asians, quite a few Russian citizens too.

Let's face it, Syrians are friendly people, make good food but are terrible fighters. With a few exceptions that is. Surprisingly enough, the best Syrian fighters with the SAA are guys that switched sides over from the radicals.
Regular SAA units can't even hold their ground in entrenched positions, while having a numerical advantage in forces against radicals (unless there are some Russian advisors in their units).
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:18 am

tu204 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Well I can't say that Russia is helping out with the refugee stream, thats the price to pay for solving the situation in Syria. What do you propose? Do nothing and leave the status quo? Nah...


It's a civil war. Who is right and who is wrong is up for debate in such situations, for example in Russia, were the whites or the reds right ?

Syrians killing Syrians is bad enough, but why is Russia killing Syrians, exactly ?


No clear answer on the Russian civil war, from me at least.
Both red and whites did some pretty crazy shit.

Why is Russia killing Syrians? Well the recognised government in Syria directly asked Russia for assistance, which is more than can be said about any western invasions in the last 50 years.

And just to note - a large portion of the targets taken out by Russia aren't Syrians. Quite a collection of fighters starting with Europeans, Africans, plenty of trigger happy Arabs and Central Asians, quite a few Russian citizens too.

Let's face it, Syrians are friendly people, make good food but are terrible fighters. With a few exceptions that is. Surprisingly enough, the best Syrian fighters with the SAA are guys that switched sides over from the radicals.
Regular SAA units can't even hold their ground in entrenched positions, while having a numerical advantage in forces against radicals (unless there are some Russian advisors in their units).


Generic saying something about a population, is racist. But 900.000 Syrians are at drift since December because the Assad regime and the Putin regime decided to attack. And the Assad regime wasn't legitimate anymore at the time the Russians intervened, so that is false statement or an argument of convenience. Russia has a record of intervening in countries that definitely didn't ask for it, so definitely an argument of convenience for you.

But I am intrigued, I am sure you have the numbers to back-up this statement: "a large portion of the targets taken out by Russia aren't Syrians". Civilian casualties, number of foreign fighters, please provide the nationalities with it also. I am sure you could provide these numbers, with credible sources, otherwise, you would not just make such a statement, right?

2016: Russia accused of deliberately targeting civilians in Syria

Russian strikes kill 10 civilians in Syria’s Idlib: Monitor

List of Syrian Civil War barrel bomb attacks: 2012-2018

Syrian activists said airstrikes in the country's northern, rebel-held region also killed at least nine civilians Monday.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

It's a civil war. Who is right and who is wrong is up for debate in such situations, for example in Russia, were the whites or the reds right ?

Syrians killing Syrians is bad enough, but why is Russia killing Syrians, exactly ?


No clear answer on the Russian civil war, from me at least.
Both red and whites did some pretty crazy shit.

Why is Russia killing Syrians? Well the recognised government in Syria directly asked Russia for assistance, which is more than can be said about any western invasions in the last 50 years.

And just to note - a large portion of the targets taken out by Russia aren't Syrians. Quite a collection of fighters starting with Europeans, Africans, plenty of trigger happy Arabs and Central Asians, quite a few Russian citizens too.

Let's face it, Syrians are friendly people, make good food but are terrible fighters. With a few exceptions that is. Surprisingly enough, the best Syrian fighters with the SAA are guys that switched sides over from the radicals.
Regular SAA units can't even hold their ground in entrenched positions, while having a numerical advantage in forces against radicals (unless there are some Russian advisors in their units).


But I am intrigued, I am sure you have the numbers to back-up this statement: "a large portion of the targets taken out by Russia aren't Syrians". Civilian casualties, number of foreign fighters, please provide the nationalities with it also. I am sure you could provide these numbers, with credible sources, otherwise, you would not just make such a statement, right?



My sources on the information about foreign nationals fighting in Syria happens to come first hand from multiple people that happened to take part in taking out (or in some cases taking prisoner) those said foreign nationals. So I don't think it's in my best interest to post the exact sources of my information ;)

However Google is your friend, so is Wikipedia (which also lists sources). Plenty of information on the subject with all sorts of sources to select from.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign ... Civil_Wars

https://www.google.com/search?q=foreign ... s+in+syria
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:55 pm

Ok, Tu204, you can't give us the exact numbers so you can't back-up your statement. Fine. I can't do anything with your anecdotical evidence. It still intrigues me what it is you actually do with what agency..........
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:34 pm

tu204 wrote:
Why is Russia killing Syrians? Well the recognised government in Syria directly asked Russia for assistance, which is more than can be said about any western invasions in the last 50 years.

I've heard you say this before (Russia was invited by the recognized government) but I have to ask... Why does that matter? What if the recognized government is terrible?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting Western interventions (I wish we'd just get out of there) but I think your defense of Russian intervention isn't a good one, it kinda boils down to Russia selecting one side and we the other (at least with us we (mostly) backed the better side, not Assad.)

Controversial opinion, but at this point, I think what is best for Syria is for Assad to crush the last bit of opposition and somewhat stabilize the country. This civil war has killed so many and dragging it out another 10 years probably does more damage than Assad winning.

That is something we (the west) really need to consider when intervening. I don't give a rat's ass if a corrupt dictator invites us or not, but does the end justify the means if the means involves a long, bloody civil war? Is the end even attainable? Will a third party (such as Russia) automatically oppose our side and turn it into an unwinnable conflict? Do we have the patience to spend billions and stay in a county for a decade or more? Will the end actually be much better than the current dictator in charge?

I don't think most of our Western interventions have helped very much at all. Some were done for shady reasons, some were done for good reasons, but in both cases, the populace suffered and really aren't better off than before. Saddam sucked but what would Iraq have looked like over the past 17 years had we not invaded? Probably not great, but better than the wars and ISIS?

tl;dr Russia is not the good guy here even if the brutal dictator Assad invited Russia in
 
tu204
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:44 am

Dutchy wrote:
Ok, Tu204, you can't give us the exact numbers so you can't back-up your statement. Fine. I can't do anything with your anecdotical evidence. It still intrigues me what it is you actually do with what agency..........


Dutchy? You joking or trolling?

I did a freaking Google search for you with as many results as you would like and linked a Wikipedia page that has any information you want, from pretty much sources available! Be it US State Department (40k foreign fighter estimates) to Russian Ministry of Defence (55k)!

Take the 10 minutes I took to read the Wikipedia article. You'll have all the answers you want!

As for my work, civilian, aviation but sometimes interact with military guys.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tu204
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:49 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Why is Russia killing Syrians? Well the recognised government in Syria directly asked Russia for assistance, which is more than can be said about any western invasions in the last 50 years.

I've heard you say this before (Russia was invited by the recognized government) but I have to ask... Why does that matter? What if the recognized government is terrible?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting Western interventions (I wish we'd just get out of there) but I think your defense of Russian intervention isn't a good one, it kinda boils down to Russia selecting one side and we the other (at least with us we (mostly) backed the better side, not Assad.)

Controversial opinion, but at this point, I think what is best for Syria is for Assad to crush the last bit of opposition and somewhat stabilize the country. This civil war has killed so many and dragging it out another 10 years probably does more damage than Assad winning.

That is something we (the west) really need to consider when intervening. I don't give a rat's ass if a corrupt dictator invites us or not, but does the end justify the means if the means involves a long, bloody civil war? Is the end even attainable? Will a third party (such as Russia) automatically oppose our side and turn it into an unwinnable conflict? Do we have the patience to spend billions and stay in a county for a decade or more? Will the end actually be much better than the current dictator in charge?

I don't think most of our Western interventions have helped very much at all. Some were done for shady reasons, some were done for good reasons, but in both cases, the populace suffered and really aren't better off than before. Saddam sucked but what would Iraq have looked like over the past 17 years had we not invaded? Probably not great, but better than the wars and ISIS?

tl;dr Russia is not the good guy here even if the brutal dictator Assad invited Russia in


1 - It matters in a legal standpoint. If you are invited, there is a legal basis for your intervention. If not, you're acting illegally and are an invading force.

2 - Unfortunately it's how it's been for a while and continues on now. For example you can draw parallels to the civil war in Ukraine. It's Syria, but just turned 180 as far as who supports who goes (well not as bloody and less bearded guys running around). There have been instances of cooperation between the U.S. and Russia however, for example some limited cooperation on fighting the baddies in Afghanistan, Syria and Libya. My guess is just cause they fed up both our guys enough.

3 - That's the thing. Interventions have a habbit of backfiring. You don't really need the other side to take action to make it unwinnable either. Just look at Afghanistan and Iraq. In the first instance Russia even passively helped you guys and in the second didn't take any actions against you and it still turned into a clusterfuck.
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:30 am

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Ok, Tu204, you can't give us the exact numbers so you can't back-up your statement. Fine. I can't do anything with your anecdotical evidence. It still intrigues me what it is you actually do with what agency..........


Dutchy? You joking or trolling?

I did a freaking Google search for you with as many results as you would like and linked a Wikipedia page that has any information you want, from pretty much sources available! Be it US State Department (40k foreign fighter estimates) to Russian Ministry of Defence (55k)!

Take the 10 minutes I took to read the Wikipedia article. You'll have all the answers you want!

As for my work, civilian, aviation but sometimes interact with military guys.


You answered only part of the question, so you are trying to frame things yet again, Yes, there are foreign fighters in Syria, everybody knows that, but we are talking about your statement and you are not being able to back it up with numbers. And we are talking specifically about Iblib and the 900.000 refugees and civilians being killed. You just want to play a mirrors game and let's look over there: foreign fighters and jihadists. Jihadists are not are terrifying for sure and their ideology despicable. But you have nothing about the 2.000.000people trapped in Iblib and the way Russians are helping the Assad regime to get a victory, literally at all (human) costs.
You desperately want. to portray Russians and the Assad regime as the good guys, but how can they be the good guys, looking at the immense human cost they cause?
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:41 am

tu204 wrote:
1 - It matters in a legal standpoint. If you are invited, there is a legal basis for your intervention. If not, you're acting illegally and are an invading force.


At that point in time, the Assad regime wasn't recognized anymore as the legal government. So from a legal pint of view, the Russians are the invading force for helping out just a fraction of the warlords, he only had 10% of the country under control.

tu204 wrote:
2 - Unfortunately it's how it's been for a while and continues on now. For example you can draw parallels to the civil war in Ukraine. It's Syria, but just turned 180 as far as who supports who goes (well not as bloody and less bearded guys running around). There have been instances of cooperation between the U.S. and Russia however, for example some limited cooperation on fighting the baddies in Afghanistan, Syria and Libya. My guess is just cause they fed up both our guys enough.


What parallels are there with Ukraine, your Putin regime invaded the country and annexed a part of it. You guys caused it. Syria was an up-rise from the people within. We are fed-up with Russia and their meddling and trying to be a. big guy, while being just. a regional power at best. I know, Putin wants to look as a powerful leader to hide the fact that within Russia there are major problems. "Look at everybody hating us, so we need to stick together" (and forget about the internal problems and the economic problems and the. immense corruption from the very top).

tu204 wrote:
3 - That's the thing. Interventions have a habbit of backfiring. You don't really need the other side to take action to make it unwinnable either. Just look at Afghanistan and Iraq. In the first instance Russia even passively helped you guys and in the second didn't take any actions against you and it still turned into a clusterfuck.


Russia wasn't a factor in either of those wars. So why bring it up. Russia isn't that important.


In conclusion, you decided to have a harsh dictator run Syria, fine, you guys are now responsible, rebuild the country, take care of all the refugees (we will send you guys the bill). Shame for the Syrians, but that's how it will be then.
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:35 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Ok, Tu204, you can't give us the exact numbers so you can't back-up your statement. Fine. I can't do anything with your anecdotical evidence. It still intrigues me what it is you actually do with what agency..........


Dutchy? You joking or trolling?

I did a freaking Google search for you with as many results as you would like and linked a Wikipedia page that has any information you want, from pretty much sources available! Be it US State Department (40k foreign fighter estimates) to Russian Ministry of Defence (55k)!

Take the 10 minutes I took to read the Wikipedia article. You'll have all the answers you want!

As for my work, civilian, aviation but sometimes interact with military guys.


You answered only part of the question, so you are trying to frame things yet again, Yes, there are foreign fighters in Syria, everybody knows that, but we are talking about your statement and you are not being able to back it up with numbers. And we are talking specifically about Iblib and the 900.000 refugees and civilians being killed. You just want to play a mirrors game and let's look over there: foreign fighters and jihadists. Jihadists are not are terrifying for sure and their ideology despicable. But you have nothing about the 2.000.000people trapped in Iblib and the way Russians are helping the Assad regime to get a victory, literally at all (human) costs.
You desperately want. to portray Russians and the Assad regime as the good guys, but how can they be the good guys, looking at the immense human cost they cause?


I was easily able to back up my claim with numbers of foreign fighters and gave you a link to a Google search with over a hundred different sources. Pick one. That is exactly what I spoke of when I referred to foreign fighters, I made no mention of Idlib in particular, that was actually in response to someone asking me about "Russians killings Syrians", to which I replied that there are a hell of alot of non-Syrians there. You decided that somehow I was talking about Idlib I guess?

As far as Idlib goes, the refugees is price that will have to be paid to bring an end to this war and peace to the country. Painfull for some in the short term, but good for the greater population in the long run. No other option as it stands. Keep the status quo for another 5, 10 or 20 years of civil war? Not really an option when the end is so near. The war has to be brought to an end. The civilian population can leave, let the SAA take care of the situation and then return to their homes.
Last edited by tu204 on Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:55 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
1 - It matters in a legal standpoint. If you are invited, there is a legal basis for your intervention. If not, you're acting illegally and are an invading force.


At that point in time, the Assad regime wasn't recognized anymore as the legal government. So from a legal pint of view, the Russians are the invading force for helping out just a fraction of the warlords, he only had 10% of the country under control.

tu204 wrote:
2 - Unfortunately it's how it's been for a while and continues on now. For example you can draw parallels to the civil war in Ukraine. It's Syria, but just turned 180 as far as who supports who goes (well not as bloody and less bearded guys running around). There have been instances of cooperation between the U.S. and Russia however, for example some limited cooperation on fighting the baddies in Afghanistan, Syria and Libya. My guess is just cause they fed up both our guys enough.


What parallels are there with Ukraine, your Putin regime invaded the country and annexed a part of it. You guys caused it. Syria was an up-rise from the people within. We are fed-up with Russia and their meddling and trying to be a. big guy, while being just. a regional power at best. I know, Putin wants to look as a powerful leader to hide the fact that within Russia there are major problems. "Look at everybody hating us, so we need to stick together" (and forget about the internal problems and the economic problems and the. immense corruption from the very top).

tu204 wrote:
3 - That's the thing. Interventions have a habbit of backfiring. You don't really need the other side to take action to make it unwinnable either. Just look at Afghanistan and Iraq. In the first instance Russia even passively helped you guys and in the second didn't take any actions against you and it still turned into a clusterfuck.


Russia wasn't a factor in either of those wars. So why bring it up. Russia isn't that important.


In conclusion, you decided to have a harsh dictator run Syria, fine, you guys are now responsible, rebuild the country, take care of all the refugees (we will send you guys the bill). Shame for the Syrians, but that's how it will be then.


1- Assad and his government were the recognized head of Syria by the UN and the majority of UN states. Some also recognized the Free Syrian Army or whatever they were called back then.

2 - Easy parallels to draw with the civil war in Ukraine.
There was an internal feud within a country where an external player (west in Ukraine, Russia in Syria) supported the recognized government against those unhappy with it where Russia supported the opposition/rebels in eastern Ukraine and the west supported the opposition/rebels to Assad. And for the past 5-6 years both major players keep at it and continue supporting politically, financially and militarily their respective parties.
Very similar actually. Both were internal conflicts where an external player threw fuel in the fire and then stuck to supporting their selected side.
Even not recognizing as legitimate the leadership in Syria/Ukraine was nearly the same at the start: Russia didn't recognize the results of the coup and until after elections in Ukraine did not recognize the junta in Kiev, nor the guys in the eastern Ukraine; the western regimes didn't go as far as not recognizing Assad, but were pretty close to doing so.

3 - Please read the post that I was responding to, one of the last paragraphs. Delta made a comment something along the lines of "what is the point of an intervention in a foreign country on one side if the other major world player throws support behind the other side of the conflict and makes it unwinnable?".
To which I responded that foreign interventions are at a disadvantage anyways, especially U.S. ones and pointed out that in Afghanistan and Iraq there was only one major player involved and everything still failed for the U.S. Other than a handfull of cronies that made lots of money on it.

4 - We are helping rebuilt the country. It is one of those "can't lose face" things and will be done. As far as refugees go, you can have them, you don't seem to mind. We took in over a million Ukranian refugees after you guys started that mess by supporting the coup there. Parralels, remember?
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:35 pm

tu204 wrote:
I was easily able to back up my claim with numbers of foreign fighters and gave you a link to a Google search with over a hundred different sources. Pick one. That is exactly what I spoke of when I referred to foreign fighters, I made no mention of Idlib in particular, that was actually in response to someone asking me about "Russians killings Syrians", to which I replied that there are a hell of alot of non-Syrians there. You decided that somehow I was talking about Idlib I guess?


This thread is about Idilb, or are you saying that you digress from this thread to go off-topic?

If you want to give your statement: ""Russians killings Syrians", to which I replied that there are a hell of alot of non-Syrians there" some meaning, you need to show us, how much Syrians were killed in the civil war and how many non-Syrians. Otherwise, it is just meaningless and only meant to distract us from the fact that the Assad-regime is just indiscriminately waging war with only his self-interest in mind. And your Putin regime is very much part of that: war crimes.

tu204 wrote:
As far as Idlib goes, the refugees is price that will have to be paid to bring an end to this war and peace to the country. Painfull for some in the short term, but good for the greater population in the long run. No other option as it stands. Keep the status quo for another 5, 10 or 20 years of civil war? Not really an option when the end is so near. The war has to be brought to an end. The civilian population can leave, let the SAA take care of the situation and then return to their homes.


The greater good for the Assad and Putin regimes (and Iran government). Looking from that perspective, you are right, no other options stand and everything goes (including war crimes) and they are just doing that, regardless of the 900.000 Syrians they put at drift or the other 2 million, or God knows how many people they are going to kill in the process. It has exactly zero to do with Syrians.
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:17 pm

tu204 wrote:
1- Assad and his government were the recognized head of Syria by the UN and the majority of UN states. Some also recognized the Free Syrian Army or whatever they were called back then.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... al_Council[/quote]

Even the Russian state had informal meetings with them.

tu204 wrote:
2 - Easy parallels to draw with the civil war in Ukraine.
There was an internal feud within a country where an external player (west in Ukraine, Russia in Syria) supported the recognized government against those unhappy with it where Russia supported the opposition/rebels in eastern Ukraine and the west supported the opposition/rebels to Assad. And for the past 5-6 years both major players keep at it and continue supporting politically, financially and militarily their respective parties.
Very similar actually. Both were internal conflicts where an external player threw fuel in the fire and then stuck to supporting their selected side.
Even not recognizing as legitimate the leadership in Syria/Ukraine was nearly the same at the start: Russia didn't recognize the results of the coup and until after elections in Ukraine did not recognize the junta in Kiev, nor the guys in the eastern Ukraine; the western regimes didn't go as far as not recognizing Assad, but were pretty close to doing so.


Ukraine --> internal conflict which resulted in peaceful handing over of the power, thereafter, with Russian support, they made a civil war out of it.
Syrian --> internal conflict which resulted in a civil war, after which it became a geopolitical thing.

See the difference there?

tu204 wrote:
4 - We are helping rebuilt the country. It is one of those "can't lose face" things and will be done. As far as refugees go, you can have them, you don't seem to mind. We took in over a million Ukranian refugees after you guys started that mess by supporting the coup there. Parralels, remember?


You annexed part of the country and your Putin sees Ukraine as part of Russia, so that is a totally different situation. Yes, the EU countries generally are open to refugees which has no place to go, why not, we committed ourselves to the Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees and Universal Declaration of Human Rights, both are signed by Russia or its predecessors and are given a miss by your Putin's Russia. But that is another story.
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:06 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
1- Assad and his government were the recognized head of Syria by the UN and the majority of UN states. Some also recognized the Free Syrian Army or whatever they were called back then.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... al_Council


Even the Russian state had informal meetings with them.

tu204 wrote:
2 - Easy parallels to draw with the civil war in Ukraine.
There was an internal feud within a country where an external player (west in Ukraine, Russia in Syria) supported the recognized government against those unhappy with it where Russia supported the opposition/rebels in eastern Ukraine and the west supported the opposition/rebels to Assad. And for the past 5-6 years both major players keep at it and continue supporting politically, financially and militarily their respective parties.
Very similar actually. Both were internal conflicts where an external player threw fuel in the fire and then stuck to supporting their selected side.
Even not recognizing as legitimate the leadership in Syria/Ukraine was nearly the same at the start: Russia didn't recognize the results of the coup and until after elections in Ukraine did not recognize the junta in Kiev, nor the guys in the eastern Ukraine; the western regimes didn't go as far as not recognizing Assad, but were pretty close to doing so.


Ukraine --> internal conflict which resulted in peaceful handing over of the power, thereafter, with Russian support, they made a civil war out of it.
Syrian --> internal conflict which resulted in a civil war, after which it became a geopolitical thing.

See the difference there?

tu204 wrote:
4 - We are helping rebuilt the country. It is one of those "can't lose face" things and will be done. As far as refugees go, you can have them, you don't seem to mind. We took in over a million Ukranian refugees after you guys started that mess by supporting the coup there. Parralels, remember?


You annexed part of the country and your Putin sees Ukraine as part of Russia, so that is a totally different situation. Yes, the EU countries generally are open to refugees which has no place to go, why not, we committed ourselves to the Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees and Universal Declaration of Human Rights, both are signed by Russia or its predecessors and are given a miss by your Putin's Russia. But that is another story.[/quote]

Ukraine a peaceful handover? Trolling me here?
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:10 am

As a neutral, both the Ukraine and Syrian conflicts were started by the Americans.
In Ukraine, by overthrowing a popularly elected government and in syria by acting basically as terrorists by heavily arming rebels to again overthrow a functioning government.
In a fair world , usa would be under sanctions for promoting terrorism, but it's a superpower.
 
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:28 am

maint123 wrote:
As a neutral, both the Ukraine and Syrian conflicts were started by the Americans.
In Ukraine, by overthrowing a popularly elected government and in syria by acting basically as terrorists by heavily arming rebels to again overthrow a functioning government.
In a fair world , usa would be under sanctions for promoting terrorism, but it's a superpower.


very neutral of you :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:36 am

Dutchy wrote:
At that point in time, the Assad regime wasn't recognized anymore as the legal government. So from a legal pint of view, the Russians are the invading force for helping out just a fraction of the warlords, he only had 10% of the country under control.


The source of legitimacy of any government (national or local) is the nation itself. Given Assad is still there, Syrians apparently recognize him as the legitimate leader. Same comes in cases of Crimea - its residents made their choice for themselves. Same is true about Donetsk - they elected their current leadership to govern themselves, and they believe in its legitimacy. What you think about their legitimacy - it's your problem and really doesn't matter. And - it's also true in case of your Parliament and PM. Dutch nation elects them for itself, and what I think about their legitimacy is my personal difficulty.

Dutchy wrote:
What parallels are there with Ukraine, your Putin regime invaded the country and annexed a part of it. You guys caused it. Syria was an up-rise from the people within.


Ukraine mess began with Western-supported armed coup and war crimes that followed it, and that should be never forgotten.

Dutchy wrote:
We are fed-up with Russia and their meddling and trying to be a. big guy, while being just. a regional power at best.


We all see that Western societies are divided, but this comes from the fact that significant percentage of people in the West do not share liberal ideology prevailing there. You guys should listen to your own people more, and look for those at fault less.
 
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:45 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
I've heard you say this before (Russia was invited by the recognized government) but I have to ask... Why does that matter? What if the recognized government is terrible?


Well, whether or not someone's government is terrible or not - it's up to nation to judge, not to outsiders. And - even a bad government with weak and flawed institutions is always better than none at all.

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Controversial opinion, but at this point, I think what is best for Syria is for Assad to crush the last bit of opposition and somewhat stabilize the country. This civil war has killed so many and dragging it out another 10 years probably does more damage than Assad winning.


Fully agree. The opposition must always play within legal framework of its state. Otherwise this is no longer opposition, but participants in heavy crimes against own nation.

DeltaMD90 wrote:
That is something we (the west) really need to consider when intervening. I don't give a rat's ass if a corrupt dictator invites us or not, but does the end justify the means if the means involves a long, bloody civil war? Is the end even attainable? Will a third party (such as Russia) automatically oppose our side and turn it into an unwinnable conflict? Do we have the patience to spend billions and stay in a county for a decade or more? Will the end actually be much better than the current dictator in charge?


It will not be any better. And cannot be, and has never been.
 
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:55 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Why is Russia killing Syrians? Well the recognised government in Syria directly asked Russia for assistance, which is more than can be said about any western invasions in the last 50 years.

I've heard you say this before (Russia was invited by the recognized government) but I have to ask... Why does that matter? What if the recognized government is terrible?


That realpolitik for you. Assad is giving the Russia militarily strategic access to the Mediterranean sea. They don't want to lose that so they support Assad.
 
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:38 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
At that point in time, the Assad regime wasn't recognized anymore as the legal government. So from a legal pint of view, the Russians are the invading force for helping out just a fraction of the warlords, he only had 10% of the country under control.


The source of legitimacy of any government (national or local) is the nation itself. Given Assad is still there, Syrians apparently recognize him as the legitimate leader. Same comes in cases of Crimea - its residents made their choice for themselves. Same is true about Donetsk - they elected their current leadership to govern themselves, and they believe in its legitimacy. What you think about their legitimacy - it's your problem and really doesn't matter. And - it's also true in case of your Parliament and PM. Dutch nation elects them for itself, and what I think about their legitimacy is my personal difficulty.


What utter convenience of you. So 90% of the territory wasn't controlled by the Assad regime, it is still. the legitimate leader in your eyes, but in Ukraine, 90% was controlled by the Ukraine government and it is perfectly ok to intervene by a foreign power. The only consistency I see in your argument is that you are backing whatever goes from the Kremlin, nothing more. Saves you from thinking about issues yourself, I guess.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
What parallels are there with Ukraine, your Putin regime invaded the country and annexed a part of it. You guys caused it. Syria was an up-rise from the people within.


Ukraine mess began with Western-supported armed coup and war crimes that followed it, and that should be never forgotten.


Utter lie. It were the people's protest movement against Putin backed, corrupt politician.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
We are fed-up with Russia and their meddling and trying to be a. big guy, while being just. a regional power at best.


We all see that Western societies are divided, but this comes from the fact that significant percentage of people in the West do not share liberal ideology prevailing there. You guys should listen to your own people more, and look for those at fault less.


:roll: Russian troll behavior in action, a pathetic attempt to try to weaken western societies by trying to split them up.
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:39 am

AeroVega wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Why is Russia killing Syrians? Well the recognised government in Syria directly asked Russia for assistance, which is more than can be said about any western invasions in the last 50 years.

I've heard you say this before (Russia was invited by the recognized government) but I have to ask... Why does that matter? What if the recognized government is terrible?


That realpolitik for you. Assad is giving the Russia militarily strategic access to the Mediterranean sea. They don't want to lose that so they support Assad.



:checkmark: nothing more indeed.
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olle
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:55 am

[twoid][/twoid]
bennett123 wrote:
Alternatively, he could open the door to the West and encourage them to go to Europe.


The answer seems to be yes.

https://www.politico.eu/article/turkey- ... ng-europe/

Next question, will France let them go to UK, and if yes can UK send them back to EU?
 
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:58 am

EU need to find a way to make the government of Syria work and to become more democratic... Perhaps Assad is more open for conversation today then a few years ago when his reaction to arabic spring started the whole mess.

We need a long term solution.
 
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:07 am

Refugees start to walk to EU border again:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... s-in-syria
 
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:25 am

olle wrote:
EU need to find a way to make the government of Syria work and to become more democratic... Perhaps Assad is more open for conversation today then a few years ago when his reaction to arabic spring started the whole mess.

We need a long term solution.


I doubt it. Before the Arab spring he seemed to be opening up, not after. Now he's worse than his father, he's similar to Saddam.

Anyway, dictatorships aren't long term solutions. Sometimes they last a long time, but something always goes wrong.

We'll see how Russia fares after Putin.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:28 am

olle wrote:
Refugees start to walk to EU border again:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... s-in-syria


Imagine the EU going into the fight as asked by Turkey (even though we disagree with Turkey's position on Kurds...), that would be realpolitik, probably more popular than being flooded by refugees again. But what a mess ! Would we shoot down Russian aircraft ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:08 pm

olle wrote:
EU need to find a way to make the government of Syria work and to become more democratic... Perhaps Assad is more open for conversation today then a few years ago when his reaction to arabic spring started the whole mess.

We need a long term solution.


:checkmark: fully agree, what is the long term solution? The Assad regime - it goes much deeper than just Assad himself, it is a system around him which benefits from this as well - seems to be much more willing to break any kind of human rights to stay into power, including making itself fully dependent on outside forces (Iran and Russia).

Short term solution would be to turn everything over to Assad and. let him kill off his citizens as he pleases. That would bring short term stability. In the long term, it is no solution of course. And the internal division remains the cause of the Arabic spring in Syria.
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:50 pm

olle wrote:
Refugees start to walk to EU border again:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... s-in-syria


Recep Tayyip Erdogan is misusing refugees as a bargaining chip. Quite low when it comes to moral behavior. But moral the behavior has been long gone in the region.
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maint123
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Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:31 am

Dutchy wrote:
olle wrote:
Refugees start to walk to EU border again:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... s-in-syria


Recep Tayyip Erdogan is misusing refugees as a bargaining chip. Quite low when it comes to moral behavior. But moral the behavior has been long gone in the region.

Well , Erdogan and usa back the same anti Syrian government forces. It will be interesting as the refugee effected will be the European countries and not usa , who initially started the violence in syria by heavily arming the rebels.
Let's see how this effects relations between usa and Europe.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 11099
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:22 am

maint123 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
olle wrote:
Refugees start to walk to EU border again:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... s-in-syria


Recep Tayyip Erdogan is misusing refugees as a bargaining chip. Quite low when it comes to moral behavior. But moral the behavior has been long gone in the region.


Well , Erdogan and usa back the same anti Syrian government forces.
No, they don't

maint123 wrote:
It will be interesting as the refugee effected will be the European countries and not usa
Why interesting?

maint123 wrote:
, who initially started the violence in syria by heavily arming the rebels.
No, it didn't, the Assad regime started the violence.

maint123 wrote:
Let's see how this effects relations between usa and Europe.
It doesn't
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
Posts: 1661
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:12 am

this will probably be interesting for the EU budget.

common customs and migration force has been moved to I think 2027. This probably will get prioritization now. Common migration policy will be needed. I know that some countries like Poland will say no, but the effect will be that a group of countries moves forward and Dublin will be replaced.

UK will suddenly not have Dublin to use for sending back refugees to the continent. Will be interesting to see if we see more boats going from france to UK in the close future in 2021.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 187
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Erdogan faces dilemma in Syria: Allow 2 million more refugees or watch them be killed

Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:54 pm

If people refuse to stand up to dictators, this decision causes dictators get emboldened.

I believe that the US has declared Assad is a dangerous criminal. This is an incredibly important thing for Assad, because when Assad lays awake at night, shaking in fear and crying, he is probably wondering when the US will enforce international laws and help the Syrian people. Will he suffer? Will it be over quickly?

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