blueflyer
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:05 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yes, like the Democrats has complete control in 2009-2011 and NEVER proposed a balanced budget. Hint: they could have passed one but passed on actually doing so.

And what they actually did pass, was so unpopular they were thrown out.

Neither party will ever have a balanced budget. They only complain about it when they are not in office to get votes like the Ds are now and the Rs did when Obama was in office


Exactly, it’s all a partisan fantasy.

What is a partisan fantasy? This irrational unsupported-by-economics need to have a balanced budget? Right now (well before the Corona virus at least), we should have a surplus, which is the most efficient way to cut debts, but for the Republicans' love of transferring wealth to corporations and Trump's desire to cut taxes for the sake of cutting taxes, we don't.
Corona is God’s punishment for the amoral, principles-free, holier-than-thou Evangelicals. The rest of us are just collateral damage
 
portcolumbus
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:15 am

New debt just got a hell of a lot cheaper the last few weeks.
 
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Tugger
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:05 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Where did I support higher corporate taxes, I just pointed out the US corporate marginal tax rates were high and needed the reduction to be competitive. It questionable who pays the corporate tax—the workers thru lower investment in productivity, the owners by reduced returns to capital or consumers thru higher prices. Lots of confusion and analysis of various elasticities.

That is just equivocation, you are saying anything. I am beginning too think you don't know what you support or want from your nation.
A vibrant strong nation with a strong military and economy, with strong resources and working population.
Or a discordant and weak nation with little coordination and inability to address national needs and encourage an strong economy.
Income taxes, were introduced by everyone's favorite Republican: Lincoln. And they transformed the nation as much as the civil war did. The great Republican president created the strong union, abandoning the idea of a weak union loosely made up of states and instead the USA became a strong global power with an economy unmatched in world history to this day even. That takes coordination, that takes resources.

Some want the USA of the civil war, some support the idea of a weak union not the USA of today. I support the USA, union we have today.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
KFTG
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:26 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yes, like the Democrats has complete control in 2009-2011 and NEVER proposed a balanced budget. Hint: they could have passed one but passed on actually doing so.

And what they actually did pass, was so unpopular they were thrown out.

I know you just make it up as you go along (take after your Dear Leader) but no, the Democrats never had "complete control" in 2009-2011 - if we did we would not have been forced to push the ACA through using budget reconciliation. Complete control would have been a super majority.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:06 pm

Isn’t a majority of the House and Senate plus the Presidency “complete control”? ACA required using reconciliation because of a law, not a Constitutional requirement. A law they could have passed, but passed on for parliamentary reasons. At a minimum, Obama could have proposed one and failed as did most presidents.
 
agill
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:07 pm

Iloveboeing wrote:
More debt? I've heard the cost of living in Norway and Sweden is sky high. When my grandparents visited, they said that the cost of a meal at McDonald's was the equivalent of $50 USD! .


Haha what? A meal is like 10 bucks. I costs more than in the states, but not that much more.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:17 pm

Iloveboeing wrote:
olle wrote:
In northern Europe we have the opposite problem. Governments in special Scandinavia should have more depts and invest more in infrastructure.



More debt? I've heard the cost of living in Norway and Sweden is sky high. When my grandparents visited, they said that the cost of a meal at McDonald's
was the equivalent of $50 USD
! They need to find ways to make things more affordable instead of taxing the heck out of everybody.


Incorrect. According to the 2018 Big Mac index a Big Mac costed $5.51 in the USA and $5.83 in Sweden. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_I ... 18index-27
High taxes provides high standard of living and high standard health care*.

Let's say you slip on a patch of ice and is transported to hospital by ambulance. At the hospital they will do x-rays. A doctor will examine you before and after the x-rays you
will also get an Orthopedic cast. A week later you have an appointment at the orthopaedist department. During the following year you make several visits to the orthopaedist
department and to your health care central. How much would it cost you or your insurance company, and much do you think it would cost me (medicines excluded) where I live?

Until the conservatives do their best to ruin it.
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:11 pm

Tugger wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Where did I support higher corporate taxes, I just pointed out the US corporate marginal tax rates were high and needed the reduction to be competitive. It questionable who pays the corporate tax—the workers thru lower investment in productivity, the owners by reduced returns to capital or consumers thru higher prices. Lots of confusion and analysis of various elasticities.

That is just equivocation, you are saying anything. I am beginning too think you don't know what you support or want from your nation.
A vibrant strong nation with a strong military and economy, with strong resources and working population.
Or a discordant and weak nation with little coordination and inability to address national needs and encourage an strong economy.
Income taxes, were introduced by everyone's favorite Republican: Lincoln. And they transformed the nation as much as the civil war did. The great Republican president created the strong union, abandoning the idea of a weak union loosely made up of states and instead the USA became a strong global power with an economy unmatched in world history to this day even. That takes coordination, that takes resources.

Some want the USA of the civil war, some support the idea of a weak union not the USA of today. I support the USA, union we have today.

Tugg




Income taxes by Lincoln were repealed in 1872 and found unconstitutional in 1895 causing progressives, under Wilson, to pass the income tax amendment to replace lost taxes caused by the 18th amendment. Income taxes will bankrupt the nation because politicians will spend it faster than we can work and earn it. Just look at the arc of Federal revenue versus Federal spending.

I’d prefer a limited government where Congress acts as the legislative branch, not the Executive Branch thru the administrative branch. There’s 2.79 million civil servants, at least 1.79 million too damned many. If it were my power to go back in time, Lincoln should have just let the South secede, they’d have come back sooner or later.

Any true small-r Republican should be very nervous about the idea of an “Imperial Presidency” we see today. The nonsense about he being the “most powerful man in the World” and the idea of Obama’s “I have a pen and phone and I’ll use that pen to [rule] by executive fiat is very undemocratic.

I've got a pen and I've got a phone - and I can use that pen to sign executive orders and take executive actions and administrative actions that move the ball forward.
. Barack Obama
 
LMP737
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:19 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Income taxes by Lincoln were repealed in 1872 and found unconstitutional in 1895 causing progressives, under Wilson, to pass the income tax amendment to replace lost taxes caused by the 18th amendment. Income taxes will bankrupt the nation because politicians will spend it faster than we can work and earn it. Just look at the arc of Federal revenue versus Federal spending.


So what exactly do you suggest we cut? Now don't give the typical GOP response of Medicare and/or Social Security since income taxes have nothing to do with the two.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Lincoln should have just let the South secede, they’d have come back sooner or later.


With slaves in tow no doubt.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Any true small-r Republican should be very nervous about the idea of an “Imperial Presidency” we see today.


I don't think such an animal exists in the real world. Maybe in some alternate universe. In our world though republicans seems to be very big fan of imperial presidencies.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The nonsense about he being the “most powerful man in the World” and the idea of Obama’s “I have a pen and phone and I’ll use that pen to [rule] by executive fiat is very undemocratic.


Why are you bringing him up, he's no longer president, Is it because you don't want to talk about the imperial tendencies of the current one?
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:35 am

Because I don’t like ANY president’s imperial tendencies, but Obama gave us a great quote on the subject—presidents think they rule by fiat, regardless of party.

Yes, the South could take “their” slaves; it would have collapsed by the turn of the century.

Since transfer payments, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid form 70% of the budget; that’s where to start. FICA taxes are just another form of income tax—flat rate AND regressive. A nightmare for most left wingers, but acceptable there. In any case, privatize it. Just about everyone would be off investing the 12,4% in the market. I paid into the system for 40 years and a conservative estimate, that money would pay me twice what SS is paying. Bad outcomes.

Get rid, deeply cut of Energy, HUD, Labor, Agriculture, Education, Commerce and there’s 305 billion. Has ?Energy produced one BTU? Ag is a minor portion of the economy, why $155 billion? Some states might want to take the taxing authority and meet local needs defined by local people.
 
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Tugger
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:40 pm

OK, so now we are looking at adding another near $1 trillion (currently the proposed relief is ~$850,000,000,000.00 but that is not including the neat idea Trump likes of mailing "Americans"a check for $1,000.00).... So that makes the projected debt for 2020 about $2 trillion, and that does not account for the expected downturn in the economy.....

Good thing we decided to take advantage of a strong BOOMING economy for the last four+ years and increase tax receipts, budget well and pay things down while we could .... oh wait... my bad.

$23-24Trillion in debt... who cares? Apparently no one and in particular the party of "budget responsibly" I thought I joined 27 years ago....

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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seb146
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:11 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Because I don’t like ANY president’s imperial tendencies, but Obama gave us a great quote on the subject—presidents think they rule by fiat, regardless of party.

Yes, the South could take “their” slaves; it would have collapsed by the turn of the century.

Since transfer payments, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid form 70% of the budget; that’s where to start. FICA taxes are just another form of income tax—flat rate AND regressive. A nightmare for most left wingers, but acceptable there. In any case, privatize it. Just about everyone would be off investing the 12,4% in the market. I paid into the system for 40 years and a conservative estimate, that money would pay me twice what SS is paying. Bad outcomes.

Get rid, deeply cut of Energy, HUD, Labor, Agriculture, Education, Commerce and there’s 305 billion. Has ?Energy produced one BTU? Ag is a minor portion of the economy, why $155 billion? Some states might want to take the taxing authority and meet local needs defined by local people.


Could you cite a source for the Obama quote, please?

Dept. of Agriculture oversees food inspection, among other things. So just letting food get into stores with no screening, no standards, just let people eat feces crusted lettuce. How is that a good thing? Dept. of Labor oversees work place safety so that people are not killed or injured while stocking toilet paper among other things. But, yeah, let's get rid of that. Dept of Education sets standards (too low, IMO) for what children in America must learn. Dept of Housing and Urban Development sets basic living standards so we do not have children and seniors living in rat infested, mold infested shacks.

Many of these departments have been weakened by Republicans anyway because the private sector can supposedly do it all better. Still waiting on that one.......
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:21 pm

Will NPR do?,

https://www.npr.org/2014/01/20/26376604 ... s-it-alone

I have more faith in parents setting education, which we see as families select housing in better school districts. States or local governments set standards for decades and did a better job of it. Do you realize how little, as opposed to how much, food the Ag Dept inspects good? It’s not a lot. There’s a role for Federal and/or State safety inspections, but strictly safety, not economic. State occupational licensing is a mess and mostly uncalled for.
 
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casinterest
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:41 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Will NPR do?,

https://www.npr.org/2014/01/20/26376604 ... s-it-alone

I have more faith in parents setting education, which we see as families select housing in better school districts. States or local governments set standards for decades and did a better job of it. Do you realize how little, as opposed to how much, food the Ag Dept inspects good? It’s not a lot. There’s a role for Federal and/or State safety inspections, but strictly safety, not economic. State occupational licensing is a mess and mostly uncalled for.



They test randomly and in batches for agriculture. that is the benefit . No one knows who or when they get inspected.

Families select housing in better districts that can afford it, or are too uncaring and incompetent to make the district they are in any better.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:26 pm

I was surprised at how nonchalant people were about our huge debt when I started this thread. Guess it's a bigger issue now? Gee, maybe that's why we shouldn't let it grow so much when the times are good

Everyone is to blame here, the Democrats who spend without a care in the world and the hypocritical Republicans who spend without a care in the world after whining about the debt
 
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Tugger
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:44 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Everyone is to blame here, the Democrats who spend without a care in the world and the hypocritical Republicans who spend without a care in the world after whining about the debt

Yup. F'ing do your job Congress, increase revenue and reduce expense.

And the idea that some have of "starve the beast"? How is that working out? It.doesn't.work. There needs to be control in a nation, and those that want "starvation" will get just that when things go t!ts up and there isn't the ability to pay for what is in fact needed. And all the things those "starvation" folks think are needed, they won't be able to be funded either. And not to put to fine a point on it, but yes a "safety net" is absolutely vital to have in place and more importantly as an ideal, as the current pandemic demonstrates. Just like a good ability to defend the nation against threats. We need many options and tools in place to have a strong well functioning nation but again, there are many that don't want that and would rather have a "starved" nation. You want to see someone who is not a patriot, just find a "starver".

OK rant over.

I support cuts and increases to the tax intake (including a min tax of 5% that everyone must participate in "But how can someone if they don't have a job! Or can't feed their kids.... Huh?! Huh?!). Prudent cuts, small to start and then continue, do what you can. And increase the tax base, close loopholes and work to improve increase the tax receipts. This isn't supposed to be easy, or answered with and solved by soundbites and scoring political points. Work together, compromise. Guess my rant wasn't quite over....

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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seb146
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:05 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Will NPR do?,

https://www.npr.org/2014/01/20/26376604 ... s-it-alone

I have more faith in parents setting education, which we see as families select housing in better school districts. States or local governments set standards for decades and did a better job of it. Do you realize how little, as opposed to how much, food the Ag Dept inspects good? It’s not a lot. There’s a role for Federal and/or State safety inspections, but strictly safety, not economic. State occupational licensing is a mess and mostly uncalled for.


Cut out another voice against Fox and right wing infotainment? Fact checking is necessary. There is also nothing wrong with hearing alternate histories of people. We watched a program last night on the Modoc Wars. Many things we had not heard because of our "great" education system that decided only one side of the war be told.

If a family can afford to sent their kids to a private school, fine. That does not mean those who can not afford private school should be left behind.

I would rather have labor laws telling employers they can not work someone when they are injured or sick or telling employers that they must provide meal breaks and having a chain of command, so to speak, to file grievances. We know we can not have unions in this country for some reason. Now, you want to abandon our only poorly managed system for filing complaints? Sounds like a winner!
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:51 am

100 Years Ago, The New York Stock Exchange Experienced A 4-Month Long Circuit Breaker

https://www.businessinsider.com/new-yor ... 914-2014-7

This action was to basically protect the US from it's indebtedness.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:19 pm

seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Will NPR do?,

https://www.npr.org/2014/01/20/26376604 ... s-it-alone

I have more faith in parents setting education, which we see as families select housing in better school districts. States or local governments set standards for decades and did a better job of it. Do you realize how little, as opposed to how much, food the Ag Dept inspects good? It’s not a lot. There’s a role for Federal and/or State safety inspections, but strictly safety, not economic. State occupational licensing is a mess and mostly uncalled for.


Cut out another voice against Fox and right wing infotainment? Fact checking is necessary. There is also nothing wrong with hearing alternate histories of people. We watched a program last night on the Modoc Wars. Many things we had not heard because of our "great" education system that decided only one side of the war be told.

If a family can afford to sent their kids to a private school, fine. That does not mean those who can not afford private school should be left behind.

I would rather have labor laws telling employers they can not work someone when they are injured or sick or telling employers that they must provide meal breaks and having a chain of command, so to speak, to file grievances. We know we can not have unions in this country for some reason. Now, you want to abandon our only poorly managed system for filing complaints? Sounds like a winner!


You don’t deny Obama’s vision of the Presidency? Is it democratic or monarchical?
 
Dieuwer
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:14 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
100 Years Ago, The New York Stock Exchange Experienced A 4-Month Long Circuit Breaker

https://www.businessinsider.com/new-yor ... 914-2014-7

This action was to basically protect the US from it's indebtedness.


Different era. The USA was still on a gold standard. Cannot easily "print" gold.
 
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seb146
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:02 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Will NPR do?,

https://www.npr.org/2014/01/20/26376604 ... s-it-alone

I have more faith in parents setting education, which we see as families select housing in better school districts. States or local governments set standards for decades and did a better job of it. Do you realize how little, as opposed to how much, food the Ag Dept inspects good? It’s not a lot. There’s a role for Federal and/or State safety inspections, but strictly safety, not economic. State occupational licensing is a mess and mostly uncalled for.


Cut out another voice against Fox and right wing infotainment? Fact checking is necessary. There is also nothing wrong with hearing alternate histories of people. We watched a program last night on the Modoc Wars. Many things we had not heard because of our "great" education system that decided only one side of the war be told.

If a family can afford to sent their kids to a private school, fine. That does not mean those who can not afford private school should be left behind.

I would rather have labor laws telling employers they can not work someone when they are injured or sick or telling employers that they must provide meal breaks and having a chain of command, so to speak, to file grievances. We know we can not have unions in this country for some reason. Now, you want to abandon our only poorly managed system for filing complaints? Sounds like a winner!


You don’t deny Obama’s vision of the Presidency? Is it democratic or monarchical?


More ODS. Every president since Lincoln has signed executive orders. Every president since Washington has addressed Congress about his vision for America. But, yes, Obama is the only one who needs to be called out on it. We'll just ignore that every president except William Henry Harrison has done the exact same thing.

When in doubt, blame Obama.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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seb146
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:06 pm

The $1000 checks the Republican administration is proposing will be refused by MAGA fans. This is textbook socialism and welfare.

Also, the markets tanking and yet the supply chains are still in tact, distribution chains are still in tact, sales outlets are still in tact just shows what we already know: those of us at the bottom are the ones propping up the markets.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:21 pm

seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Cut out another voice against Fox and right wing infotainment? Fact checking is necessary. There is also nothing wrong with hearing alternate histories of people. We watched a program last night on the Modoc Wars. Many things we had not heard because of our "great" education system that decided only one side of the war be told.

If a family can afford to sent their kids to a private school, fine. That does not mean those who can not afford private school should be left behind.

I would rather have labor laws telling employers they can not work someone when they are injured or sick or telling employers that they must provide meal breaks and having a chain of command, so to speak, to file grievances. We know we can not have unions in this country for some reason. Now, you want to abandon our only poorly managed system for filing complaints? Sounds like a winner!


You don’t deny Obama’s vision of the Presidency? Is it democratic or monarchical?


More ODS. Every president since Lincoln has signed executive orders. Every president since Washington has addressed Congress about his vision for America. But, yes, Obama is the only one who needs to be called out on it. We'll just ignore that every president except William Henry Harrison has done the exact same thing.

When in doubt, blame Obama.


No, I object to all of them making executive orders—Congress legislates, Presidents execute to laws passed by Congress. Presidents, especially since that idiot TR, building thru the FDR era and worse since WW II have all considered themselves above Congress. Worse still, Congress in the time of political careers and public are all too happy to let them exceed executive authority. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolute. Obama just put it most clearly and recently, but they all do it.

Again, calling the US President the “most powerful man in the world “ is a serious affront to true small-r republicans.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:32 pm

seb146 wrote:
The $1000 checks the Republican administration is proposing will be refused by MAGA fans. This is textbook socialism and welfare.

Also, the markets tanking and yet the supply chains are still in tact, distribution chains are still in tact, sales outlets are still in tact just shows what we already know: those of us at the bottom are the ones propping up the markets.

I really can't blame any right winger in this specific case. This is so unprecedented. I think UBI is a crap, unsustainable plan but am in favor of emergency measures such as these

What needs to happen, though, are stipulations on any bailout money to companies. It's pretty annoying companies can post billions in profit then need a bailout after only a few months. I realize it's more complicated than that, but strings need to be attached for any money received
 
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:21 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Isn’t a majority of the House and Senate plus the Presidency “complete control”? ACA required using reconciliation because of a law, not a Constitutional requirement. A law they could have passed, but passed on for parliamentary reasons. At a minimum, Obama could have proposed one and failed as did most presidents.


No, as long a a filibuster can happen, complete control is not assured.
Carpe Pices
 
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seb146
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:27 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

You don’t deny Obama’s vision of the Presidency? Is it democratic or monarchical?


More ODS. Every president since Lincoln has signed executive orders. Every president since Washington has addressed Congress about his vision for America. But, yes, Obama is the only one who needs to be called out on it. We'll just ignore that every president except William Henry Harrison has done the exact same thing.

When in doubt, blame Obama.


No, I object to all of them making executive orders—Congress legislates, Presidents execute to laws passed by Congress. Presidents, especially since that idiot TR, building thru the FDR era and worse since WW II have all considered themselves above Congress. Worse still, Congress in the time of political careers and public are all too happy to let them exceed executive authority. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolute. Obama just put it most clearly and recently, but they all do it.

Again, calling the US President the “most powerful man in the world “ is a serious affront to true small-r republicans.


Then stop putting the blame ONLY on Obama. GWB was worse but he gets a pass? I don't think so. You are whining and complaining about executive orders issued by Obama as "proof" that Obama was king but say zero about the current Republican administration.

And, then, you side-step to the familiar right wing "both sides do it" to make it look like you get it.

When Congress refuses to act, the president issues an executive order. It is not law. Even with the grand poobah tweeting "I hereby...." does not make it law.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/ ... by-1474073
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:42 pm

Read my first sentence, please. Trump’s BS, like everyone else’s is too deep to quote as succinctly. Thanks for the link which is useful at recording Trump’s BS, but less at concisely capturing the Imperial Presidency. Does the word insecurity ring a bell?

I’m pretty much on record at abhoring imperial government, if don’t see that, go back and read my posts. You seem to be in favor of a strong executive and administration, but that condemns you to be at the mercy of the occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. I’d prefer to cut the government by half, as I described and devolve corrupting power closer to home.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:55 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I’d prefer to cut the government by half, as I described and devolve corrupting power closer to home.



That solves nothing. All you are doing is moving the problem closer to home.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:02 pm

Exactly!

I can go scream at my town highway surveyor, go to town meeting and embarrass him; what can I do to the Secretary of Transport. Yes, vastly different scales, but the more local, the better. Just about any working stiff would be better off investing a lifetime’s 12.4% FICA tax, but no, the government takes your ownership of the money. We could have a disability program at the State or Federal level.
 
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seb146
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:05 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Exactly!

I can go scream at my town highway surveyor, go to town meeting and embarrass him; what can I do to the Secretary of Transport. Yes, vastly different scales, but the more local, the better. Just about any working stiff would be better off investing a lifetime’s 12.4% FICA tax, but no, the government takes your ownership of the money. We could have a disability program at the State or Federal level.


The same people who complain about "the feds need to stop taking money from my check!" are the same people who complain about "the state needs to stop taking money from my check!" so then what? No one is being taxed for anything but work still needs to be done on roads, bridges, dams, emergency response to disasters, police, fire, ATC workers need to get paid,......

Everyone is quick to point out waste, fraud, and abuse in programs like SNAP and Medicare but completely ignore much more costly waste, fraud, and abuse in military spending.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:49 pm

There are legit public goods, among them those you mentioned, might disagree on ATC as many countries have privatized it. We need them, but do we need 80 years of ag subsidies? Do we need $1 trillion of tax expenditures—heavily skewed to high incomes like mortgage interest and medical coverage deduction?
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:12 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Exactly!

I can go scream at my town highway surveyor, go to town meeting and embarrass him; what can I do to the Secretary of Transport.


I do not see how that makes anything better. He could embarrass you right back if you are not right about something.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yes, vastly different scales, but the more local, the better. Just about any working stiff would be better off investing a lifetime’s 12.4% FICA tax, but no, the government takes your ownership of the money. We could have a disability program at the State or Federal level.


Did something prevent you from investing the rest of your money? Both things can be done, and you end up fine.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:52 am

No, but if I had that 12.4% and invested it over my working life, I would have been better off, so there’s that. It’s a bad deal, period. The point is local pols can be brought to account, exactly what can be done to an unelected bureaucrat?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:06 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, but if I had that 12.4% and invested it over my working life, I would have been better off, so there’s that. It’s a bad deal, period. The point is local pols can be brought to account, exactly what can be done to an unelected bureaucrat?


The point is that nobody with power is interested in being held to account. Why would we expect anything to change? $$ = power, power = privilege. 45 said as much in Thursday’s presser when a reporter asked why NBA players and the wealthy are jumping the line for tests: “perhaps that’s been the story of life”

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/12403 ... 37536?s=21
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Tugger
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:20 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I’d prefer to cut the government by half, as I described and devolve corrupting power closer to home.
So you want to multiply the "corrupting power"? Great. Instead of thousands of corrupt politicians etc., you want millions and millions of corrupt people.

Brilliant.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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Tugger
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:27 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Just about any working stiff would be better off investing a lifetime’s 12.4% FICA tax, but no, the government takes your ownership of the money. We could have a disability program at the State or Federal level.


You really do not understand anything about a strong nation and society and are only out for yourself, at least when you make statements like that, that is how you present yourself. That 12.4% is to cover everyone and prevent those citizens that are not able to invest in the markets or set aside money or have the stock market crash as they are retiring, or have their company go bankrupt and lose their planned pension. Is there waste? Yes. Is there another easier way to address it? Don't 100% know.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:12 am

I don't know, I'm sorta with GalaxyFlyer on this one. I feel like local politicians are more connected to the community and the ones that go to DC lose touch. You have senators from CA duking it out with ones from MS and not much gets done.

The biggest problem I have is often a lot more shenanigans happen when the states go wild. That's where you have states throwing creationism and non scientific stuff into school curriculum, abysmal health protections, etc.

The feds are definitely needed, I think them setting minimums and guidelines and letting the states craft their own systems works best. And the more I see the government screw up everything they do and how wasteful it is (I see it first hand all the time), the more I'm pro privatizing things (keeping companies on a leash)

I think it's hard to come even close to the efficiency of the private sector. Channel that power, put limits on it. Although not perfect, the ACA kinda went that direction instead of nuking the system and making a government system that looks great on paper but would function abysmally
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12181
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:31 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Exactly!

I can go scream at my town highway surveyor, go to town meeting and embarrass him; what can I do to the Secretary of Transport.


Vote against his party perhaps?

DeltaMD90 wrote:
I think it's hard to come even close to the efficiency of the private sector.


After our last public admin reform, we now use the same KPI based system large corporations do, we monitored the efficiency and it turns out that, if you use the same management practices, there is essentially no difference in efficiency between government and very large companies.
For some projects like highways it turned out that the government does those vastly more efficient than private companies via BOT contracts and such.
In fields where lots and lots of private companies compete with each other efficiency should be better than government, but once you get into big boys only territory that may not be the case at all.

Best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:06 pm

Tugger wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Just about any working stiff would be better off investing a lifetime’s 12.4% FICA tax, but no, the government takes your ownership of the money. We could have a disability program at the State or Federal level.


You really do not understand anything about a strong nation and society and are only out for yourself, at least when you make statements like that, that is how you present yourself. That 12.4% is to cover everyone and prevent those citizens that are not able to invest in the markets or set aside money or have the stock market crash as they are retiring, or have their company go bankrupt and lose their planned pension. Is there waste? Yes. Is there another easier way to address it? Don't 100% know.

Tugg


They’re setting aside 12.4% every day they work, right now. It would just be their family’s asset instead of a political promissory note redeemable at age 62. Spare a thought from my late First Sgt, paid into the system for 35 years, died at 60 and didn’t get a dime in benefits.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:07 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Exactly!

I can go scream at my town highway surveyor, go to town meeting and embarrass him; what can I do to the Secretary of Transport.


Vote against his party perhaps?

DeltaMD90 wrote:
I think it's hard to come even close to the efficiency of the private sector.


After our last public admin reform, we now use the same KPI based system large corporations do, we monitored the efficiency and it turns out that, if you use the same management practices, there is essentially no difference in efficiency between government and very large companies.
For some projects like highways it turned out that the government does those vastly more efficient than private companies via BOT contracts and such.
In fields where lots and lots of private companies compete with each other efficiency should be better than government, but once you get into big boys only territory that may not be the case at all.

Best regards
Thomas


No, stand up in front of like minded citizens and demand a fix for the roads. It’s a town meeting, not an election.
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:55 pm

casinterest wrote:


Families select housing in better districts that can afford it, or are too uncaring and incompetent to make the district they are in any better.


This is low blow. I expect you have not been in that position yourself. I have and no, I, nor anybody else is in the position to sacrifice the future of our children with the hope of "changing" the culture of the dominant crowd in a district. When that culture has little/no interest in education, no responsible parent with options is going to place that burden on their children's shoulders. Can't change stupid. I made that choice 6 years ago myself, while my buddy left his kids with the gangbangers-in-training. Believe it - in hindsight we have no regrets, in fact it was probably my best move as a parent yet.

Back on subject, I am one who is looking at the current spending spree with angst. i am not a fan of the proposal to hand out money willy-nilly to every adult and child in the country - which is destined for immense waste and abuse while our kids will ostensibly need to pay it back. I really like the idea of forgiving/delaying rents and mortgages as needed instead. The cash Uncle Sam is handing out will just go to the banks, who will continue to profit while we all suffer. They can afford to eat interest payments for a month or two. They should be looking at seizing/erasing Chinese treasury notes/et al to cover damages.
 
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seb146
Posts: 21676
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:13 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Tugger wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Just about any working stiff would be better off investing a lifetime’s 12.4% FICA tax, but no, the government takes your ownership of the money. We could have a disability program at the State or Federal level.


You really do not understand anything about a strong nation and society and are only out for yourself, at least when you make statements like that, that is how you present yourself. That 12.4% is to cover everyone and prevent those citizens that are not able to invest in the markets or set aside money or have the stock market crash as they are retiring, or have their company go bankrupt and lose their planned pension. Is there waste? Yes. Is there another easier way to address it? Don't 100% know.

Tugg


They’re setting aside 12.4% every day they work, right now. It would just be their family’s asset instead of a political promissory note redeemable at age 62. Spare a thought from my late First Sgt, paid into the system for 35 years, died at 60 and didn’t get a dime in benefits.


Did your First Sgt. also work at a union shop where they could negotiate things like health care and retirement benefits? He never saw a dime of those retirement benefits, either.

Here is the problem: many of us work in industries that do not have retirement or health care benefits. We can not organize a union to help us negotiate those things. So, we have to rely on things like Medicare and Social Security. Now, you want to take that away, too. Understand that we do not have the time or financial resources to save for retirement or health care. You also want everyone to move to a better school district or simply improve the one we are in. Again, working parents do not have the time. They can not make the time because they are working to put a roof over their families and food on the table.

Hold on and let me cue your "blame the victim" music.....
Last edited by seb146 on Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 10977
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:14 pm

mham001 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


Families select housing in better districts that can afford it, or are too uncaring and incompetent to make the district they are in any better.


This is low blow. I expect you have not been in that position yourself. I have and no, I, nor anybody else is in the position to sacrifice the future of our children with the hope of "changing" the culture of the dominant crowd in a district. When that culture has little/no interest in education, no responsible parent with options is going to place that burden on their children's shoulders. Can't change stupid. I made that choice 6 years ago myself, while my buddy left his kids with the gangbangers-in-training. Believe it - in hindsight we have no regrets, in fact it was probably my best move as a parent yet.

Back on subject, I am one who is looking at the current spending spree with angst. i am not a fan of the proposal to hand out money willy-nilly to every adult and child in the country - which is destined for immense waste and abuse while our kids will ostensibly need to pay it back. I really like the idea of forgiving/delaying rents and mortgages as needed instead. The cash Uncle Sam is handing out will just go to the banks, who will continue to profit while we all suffer. They can afford to eat interest payments for a month or two. They should be looking at seizing/erasing Chinese treasury notes/et al to cover damages.


Actually, we agree. Putting a national moratorium on all mortgage and rent obligations (and with property tax credits for landlords who don’t have mortgages but are stuck with high fixed expenses) would be a FAR more effective relief measure.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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seb146
Posts: 21676
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:23 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Exactly!

I can go scream at my town highway surveyor, go to town meeting and embarrass him; what can I do to the Secretary of Transport.


Vote against his party perhaps?

DeltaMD90 wrote:
I think it's hard to come even close to the efficiency of the private sector.


After our last public admin reform, we now use the same KPI based system large corporations do, we monitored the efficiency and it turns out that, if you use the same management practices, there is essentially no difference in efficiency between government and very large companies.
For some projects like highways it turned out that the government does those vastly more efficient than private companies via BOT contracts and such.
In fields where lots and lots of private companies compete with each other efficiency should be better than government, but once you get into big boys only territory that may not be the case at all.

Best regards
Thomas


No, stand up in front of like minded citizens and demand a fix for the roads. It’s a town meeting, not an election.


I call BS. I live in MAGA land and we do that exact thing. Supposedly, there is money budgeted for roads but they all look like the day after D-Day. Why aren't they being fixed? "The county/city/state/feds didn't give us any" or "why should we when we have other roads that need to be fixed?" or "we have plans already for that money". Parts of the boulevard between the casino and the Native American historical site are being improved. Why? The feds gave the tribes money to buy that land and build a resort right on the bay. When asked about fixing the other roads, council's response was "well, the contract is for that one road and a block on either side, so"

In the town I grew up in (a different MAGA town) everyone is constantly going to town council and county board meetings demanding roads be fixed. The typical answer is "we already have plans for the money" or "we don't have enough to fix the roads because the state/city/county/feds didn't give us any". In short: excuse and buck passing. Some of the projects the road money was spent on: art work, lights, railroad crossings, bridges that still have useful life. I will give them they replaced one bridge that should have actually been replaced decades ago.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:47 pm

If government won’t respond at that level (local or county); refuse to spend money on core infrastructure; what hope is there for any government action?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 4892
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:49 pm

seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Tugger wrote:

You really do not understand anything about a strong nation and society and are only out for yourself, at least when you make statements like that, that is how you present yourself. That 12.4% is to cover everyone and prevent those citizens that are not able to invest in the markets or set aside money or have the stock market crash as they are retiring, or have their company go bankrupt and lose their planned pension. Is there waste? Yes. Is there another easier way to address it? Don't 100% know.

Tugg


They’re setting aside 12.4% every day they work, right now. It would just be their family’s asset instead of a political promissory note redeemable at age 62. Spare a thought from my late First Sgt, paid into the system for 35 years, died at 60 and didn’t get a dime in benefits.


Did your First Sgt. also work at a union shop where they could negotiate things like health care and retirement benefits? He never saw a dime of those retirement benefits, either.

Here is the problem: many of us work in industries that do not have retirement or health care benefits. We can not organize a union to help us negotiate those things. So, we have to rely on things like Medicare and Social Security. Now, you want to take that away, too. Understand that we do not have the time or financial resources to save for retirement or health care. You also want everyone to move to a better school district or simply improve the one we are in. Again, working parents do not have the time. They can not make the time because they are working to put a roof over their families and food on the table.

Hold on and let me cue your "blame the victim" music.....


Pretty obvious, he worked for Uncle Sam. But, you have the resources—that 12.4%. It’s being “invested” for you, you just don’t have any ownership of it.
 
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Tugger
Posts: 9839
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:58 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Pretty obvious, he worked for Uncle Sam. But, you have the resources—that 12.4%. It’s being “invested” for you, you just don’t have any ownership of it.

Actually it is being "invested" for the nation and the nation's citizens well-being. You are part of that and will be protected by it if brown stuff impacts rotating airmover blades.... A strong effective nation does not abandon it's citizens at the end and to do that takes planning and "investing" up front. Not that you would know that the way Republican's insist on not doing any planning anymore.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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casinterest
Posts: 10168
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Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:20 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
mham001 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


Families select housing in better districts that can afford it, or are too uncaring and incompetent to make the district they are in any better.


This is low blow. I expect you have not been in that position yourself. I have and no, I, nor anybody else is in the position to sacrifice the future of our children with the hope of "changing" the culture of the dominant crowd in a district. When that culture has little/no interest in education, no responsible parent with options is going to place that burden on their children's shoulders. Can't change stupid. I made that choice 6 years ago myself, while my buddy left his kids with the gangbangers-in-training. Believe it - in hindsight we have no regrets, in fact it was probably my best move as a parent yet.

Back on subject, I am one who is looking at the current spending spree with angst. i am not a fan of the proposal to hand out money willy-nilly to every adult and child in the country - which is destined for immense waste and abuse while our kids will ostensibly need to pay it back. I really like the idea of forgiving/delaying rents and mortgages as needed instead. The cash Uncle Sam is handing out will just go to the banks, who will continue to profit while we all suffer. They can afford to eat interest payments for a month or two. They should be looking at seizing/erasing Chinese treasury notes/et al to cover damages.


Actually, we agree. Putting a national moratorium on all mortgage and rent obligations (and with property tax credits for landlords who don’t have mortgages but are stuck with high fixed expenses) would be a FAR more effective relief measure.



It is not really a low blow. I have family that teach, and families that could make a district better fail to volunteer or do anything to help the situation. I understand working parents, that happens in all districts, but some parents choose lunch hours to socialize instead of paying some time back at the school once a month or so. Culture changes when results are not seen.

In the case of a cash handout vs mortgage relief and rent relief, I could go either way, but if we are talking about 6 week increments of evaluation, I have to go with the Cash. 6 weeks and 3K (family of 4 ) sounds better than my mortgage at that time frame.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:12 pm

casinterest wrote:
It is not really a low blow. I have family that teach, and families that could make a district better fail to volunteer or do anything to help the situation. I understand working parents, that happens in all districts, but some parents choose lunch hours to socialize instead of paying some time back at the school once a month or so. Culture changes when results are not seen.

In the case of a cash handout vs mortgage relief and rent relief, I could go either way, but if we are talking about 6 week increments of evaluation, I have to go with the Cash. 6 weeks and 3K (family of 4 ) sounds better than my mortgage at that time frame.


Huge chunks of that money is going to wasted on drugs, alcohol and sugar. Hookers and blow....Ultimately, it will land in the hands of banks who will feel little but can afford to suffer a bit as we all will. Ultimately, the children of today who prosper will face the burden of paying for the drugs, alcohol and sugar of those too dumb to either spend it wisely or raise taxpaying citizens. .

You may have families that teach but I have been on the front line as a parent. The idea that a parent volunteering at lunch is going to solve a fundamental cultural issue is nonsense. And do so in a timeframe that does not place the burden of that change on your own children or ever provide them benefits from growing up with gang-bangers in training in a school ranked 2-3. Nope, not happening, especially when 5 miles away, the academic rankings are 8-10.. BTW, this was also a Baccalaureate school - if ever there was a scam....
 
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casinterest
Posts: 10168
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: What are we going to do about the US Debt?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:32 pm

mham001 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
It is not really a low blow. I have family that teach, and families that could make a district better fail to volunteer or do anything to help the situation. I understand working parents, that happens in all districts, but some parents choose lunch hours to socialize instead of paying some time back at the school once a month or so. Culture changes when results are not seen.

In the case of a cash handout vs mortgage relief and rent relief, I could go either way, but if we are talking about 6 week increments of evaluation, I have to go with the Cash. 6 weeks and 3K (family of 4 ) sounds better than my mortgage at that time frame.


Huge chunks of that money is going to wasted on drugs, alcohol and sugar. Hookers and blow....Ultimately, it will land in the hands of banks who will feel little but can afford to suffer a bit as we all will. Ultimately, the children of today who prosper will face the burden of paying for the drugs, alcohol and sugar of those too dumb to either spend it wisely or raise taxpaying citizens. .

You may have families that teach but I have been on the front line as a parent. The idea that a parent volunteering at lunch is going to solve a fundamental cultural issue is nonsense. And do so in a timeframe that does not place the burden of that change on your own children or ever provide them benefits from growing up with gang-bangers in training in a school ranked 2-3. Nope, not happening, especially when 5 miles away, the academic rankings are 8-10.. BTW, this was also a Baccalaureate school - if ever there was a scam....


You complain about cultural issues, but cultures change. You are either a part of the change, or just wasting your time blaming other. When you blame a culture you are wasting as much effort as those that do blow, hookers, and whatever other stereotypes your mind can come up with, as you are not choosing to affect those that can and want to learn.
So you just drove your kids in and let someone else do the job for you right?
Where ever you go, there you are.

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