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sonicruiser
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Does the US need a third political party?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:48 pm

If the institutionally corrupt right wing Republican and the left wing Democrat fringes won't cut it, why not establish a third new centrist party focused on liberal conservatism? It would appeal to moderates across the country looking for a party in the middle embracing the best ideas from both sides.
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DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:03 am

what do you consider the best ideas from both sides?
 
NIKV69
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:56 am

I have said we needed this. It would be good. Right now there is about a third of the country that isn't represented by either party.
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stl07
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:05 am

NIKV69 wrote:
I have said we needed this. It would be good. Right now there is about a third of the country that isn't represented by either party.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

Socialy liberal and economically conservative.

Pro women/lgbt/minority rights, pro-constitution (ie not declaring a national emergency when congress checks your power), pro-infrastructure, Anti-moral police (so no Elizabeth warren types).
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Derico
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:47 am

I have been of the belief for a few years that "western representative democracy" is facing an existencial crisis almost everywhere. There is not one country where in the last few years the system as currently functioning has degraded, stultified, or outright failed.

In parliamentary democracies, you have a systematic fractioning of the vote into tiny single-interest parties, where one small, fringe element can leave an entire country without a government for years, or force it into three or four rounds of elections within a year.

In presidential democracies, you have a gutting of the "middle" in favor of extreme ideologues, quite frankly in part because the far-ends of the political spectrum just have more energy and are more involved in the political process.

In both cases you also have the effect of modern social media, which in my opinion is more a negative force than a force for good. Social media by its nature frowns upon moderation, dialogue, and compromise, because it is populated to a large degree by 'outcasts' of the so-called mainstream of media, and also it depends on shock value and outrageous content to remain relevant. In the last few years this has reached critical mass and has been a leading cause of radicalizing both people on the right and left wings of politics.

In countries with weak or showcase representative systems, you simply see "presidents" get stamped for lifetime offices.

I don't see a way out of this for two reasons. First reason is short term: being moderate and willing to compromise is seen by most modern voters as a root cause of all current problems they believe exist. Thus third parties cannot gain foothold, and also why coalition governments in parliaments are becoming so difficult to forge. The long term reason is that, unfortunately, drip but steady type reforms rarely have succeeded in any country, the vested interests who profit from the current system make sure change is stifled or totally blocked, and even if not, the momentum usually is lost as the next election cycle approaches. So the imbalances remain and get worse and worse. Eventually, a massive realignment or outright revolution is the way it comes to resolution, like the proverbial rubber-band that you just stretch and stretch and suddenly gives way.

I think the medium term future is dark for the democratic nations.
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:20 am

Do we need a third party? We need some constitutional amendments. Even if we had a third party rise up I don't think the system we have could support 3, then you'd have 2 again.

Doesn't help that any third party candidate is seen as "just a vote for Trump/whoever the Dem nominee is"
 
B777LRF
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:12 am

Yes, as well as a fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh and eight. For starters.
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T18
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:21 am

Yes, and the first way to get there is to get rid of the belief that voting third party is 'throwing your vote away' of 'just a protest vote'. I swear if all the internet commentators who disliked both the Dem and Rep candidates in 2016 had voted for a independent candidate they would not have swung the election but the results would have woken some people up at the RNC and DNC about how out of touch with the average american voter they have gotten.
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:26 pm

Given the tendency of both main parties to be veering towards their respective extreme, there is a rather large vacuum being created in the middle.

I don't know if a third party is the solution to that, or even if it would work well with the current constitution and political system. Either way, it's unlikely to happen.
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petertenthije
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:19 pm

A third party won’t work until you get rid of “winner takes it all”. As long as that is the case, a third party will never get enough votes, as too many people will view a 3rd part as merely diluting votes away from the main parties.

Instead of winner-takes-all, divide the representatives by proportion. Got 30% of the votes... get 30% of the seats. This could still be done state-by-state to avoid larger states getting too large a say. This would also get rid of gerrymandering.

I would also suggest that only parties with more then, say, 10% of votes get representatives. Yes, this will cause people’s votes to be discounted, but not more then the current situation where voting in “safe states” makes little to no difference. Otherwise you end up with too many parties causing gridlock.

But let’s be honest here, the politicians are never going to do something that would open up the elections.
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PPVRA
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:58 pm

petertenthije wrote:
A third party won’t work until you get rid of “winner takes it all”. As long as that is the case, a third party will never get enough votes, as too many people will view a 3rd part as merely diluting votes away from the main parties.

Instead of winner-takes-all, divide the representatives by proportion. Got 30% of the votes... get 30% of the seats. This could still be done state-by-state to avoid larger states getting too large a say. This would also get rid of gerrymandering.


How would doing away with the winner takes all rules affect gerrymandering?
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JJJ
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:59 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Given the tendency of both main parties to be veering towards their respective extreme, there is a rather large vacuum being created in the middle.

I don't know if a third party is the solution to that, or even if it would work well with the current constitution and political system. Either way, it's unlikely to happen.


Unless it comes with a change of electoral vote to a proportional system a third party has no chance of getting anything but a token share of the vote.
 
PPVRA
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:01 pm

petertenthije wrote:
But let’s be honest here, the politicians are never going to do something that would open up the elections.


Purple/swing states might be able to initiate such a move. But there’s no widespread education effort to enlighten people on the subject.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:31 pm

PPVRA wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
But let’s be honest here, the politicians are never going to do something that would open up the elections.


Purple/swing states might be able to initiate such a move. But there’s no widespread education effort to enlighten people on the subject.

I don't know every proposal out there but I think most would require a constitutional amendment... that'd require much much more than a handful of purple states.

Plus, they're "purple" not because they're a separate color from red or blue (as in, purple states aren't dominated by a third party.) They're purple because they're closer to 50/50 R and D, and those R and Ds aren't gonna want to give up their power

It would take a lot. A LOT
 
NIKV69
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:35 pm

stl07 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I have said we needed this. It would be good. Right now there is about a third of the country that isn't represented by either party.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

Socialy liberal and economically conservative.

Pro women/lgbt/minority rights, pro-constitution (ie not declaring a national emergency when congress checks your power), pro-infrastructure, Anti-moral police (so no Elizabeth warren types).


Really being for fair taxation, guns and being socially liberal you have nobody representing you.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
petertenthije
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:56 pm

PPVRA wrote:
How would doing away with the winner takes all rules affect gerrymandering?

With proportional you would not need districts. You could do the voting for the entire state instead of for a district.
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seb146
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:31 pm

We are not going to have any third or fourth or fifth party until money is taken out of politics. That would take an act of the Supreme Court. Democrats are more willing to do this than Republicans. And, with the 5-4 Republican majority on the Supreme Court, it will not happen any time soon.

petertenthije wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
How would doing away with the winner takes all rules affect gerrymandering?

With proportional you would not need districts. You could do the voting for the entire state instead of for a district.


That still would not work. Cities would still decide for an entire state.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
apodino
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:55 pm

seb146 wrote:
We are not going to have any third or fourth or fifth party until money is taken out of politics. That would take an act of the Supreme Court. Democrats are more willing to do this than Republicans. And, with the 5-4 Republican majority on the Supreme Court, it will not happen any time soon.

petertenthije wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
How would doing away with the winner takes all rules affect gerrymandering?

With proportional you would not need districts. You could do the voting for the entire state instead of for a district.


That still would not work. Cities would still decide for an entire state.

Actually it would take a constitutional amendment. If this happened because of the courts, then the courts are legislating from the bench and are taking power that the constitution does not give them. And believe me, if Sanders is denied the nomination because of convention shenanigans caused by the superdelegates, there will be a renewed push for this. The elites in both parties are underestimating just how populist the voters are.

I think the way that the money thing will be fixed is a constitutional convention where an amendment would be most likely to be proposed (it will never ever pass Congress, especially with McConnell running the senate). I know progressives are concerned that such a convention would also result in conservative priorities being proposed (term limits, balanced budget, abortion, etc). But I think progressives who rare serious about money in politics should at least consider the possibility.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:42 pm

seb146 wrote:
We are not going to have any third or fourth or fifth party until money is taken out of politics. That would take an act of the Supreme Court. Democrats are more willing to do this than Republicans. And, with the 5-4 Republican majority on the Supreme Court, it will not happen any time soon.

While I agree money in politics should be curtailed, I don't see how taking money out would lead to multiple parties. The DNC and RNC wield a lot of power, and not all of it is with money. There are a lot of structural barriers. We've mostly had a 2 party system since the beginning.

I also agree that "Democrats are more willing to do this than Republicans" but their track record isn't great on the issue either.

That's why I really admire Bernie, even if he's too left for me. He is really playing at a disadvantage by shunning big money. You can see how a lot of Democrats are reacting to his campaign... He has a lot of enemies. Getting money out of politics is a lot harder than convincing a few Republicans to break ranks, you gotta convince the majority of Democrats that take big money too...
 
blueflyer
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:14 am

We do need a third party, and more as B777LRF suggested. Let's face it. Southern Democrats don't really have a home in a party controlled by Northerners, and the same could be said of Northern Republicans and the GOP.

For all the reasons above, it is not likely to happen anytime soon, though, so we should focus on reforms that have already been implemented in a few states.
- Redistricting by non-partisan committees whose remit is to make the most compact districts (if both parties hate it, surely it has to be good for democracy, right?);
- General elections for state representatives (House and Senate) oppose the two candidates with the most votes in the primaries irrespective of party affiliation - in states that are red or blue, it forces the candidates to moderate their views in other to attract votes from the other side (ditto)
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:50 am

I find this thread utterly pointless. No matter what party evolves down the road nobody going to agree on everything unless they are a bunch of sheep.

regardless of your party, it seems once someone becomes president they want to represent everybody and become centrist for the most part.

Trump is a nationalist
Obama was a progressive and diehard centrist
G.W. Bush was a conservative centrist
Clinton was a centrist
George HW Bush was a conservative internationalist
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:58 am

There’s no way Bush 41, 43 and Obama were centrists! The outlier being Obama, a leftie.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:22 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There’s no way Bush 41, 43 and Obama were centrists! The outlier being Obama, a leftie.


Too much Hannity/Limbaugh, not enough reality. 44 was most definitely centrist - the left wanted Wall Street to pay, 44 listened to Geithner instead and AG Holder, an ex Wall Street lawyer, prosecuted nobody for the 2008 financial meltdown. Further, the left wanted to completely draw down in Afghanistan, while 44 stepped up drone war uninterrupted for the next eight years.
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Aaron747
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:28 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Do we need a third party? We need some constitutional amendments. Even if we had a third party rise up I don't think the system we have could support 3, then you'd have 2 again.

Doesn't help that any third party candidate is seen as "just a vote for Trump/whoever the Dem nominee is"


Agreed.

The other problem is that post-Apollo critical thinking and science education have been utter failures in most states - two generations later and now people believe whatever they are fed without evidence, and increasingly no matter how crazy.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:42 pm

The was the AG who supplied guns to Mexican drug gangs who then used them to shot US cops. Wonderful guy. Obama presided over the largest government interference in private industry yet—leftist in any view.

Funny thing, I’ve NEVER watched Fox News. I think for my conservative self, not lead around in search of free treats like Bernie Bros.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:51 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
Do we need a third party? We need some constitutional amendments. Even if we had a third party rise up I don't think the system we have could support 3, then you'd have 2 again.

Doesn't help that any third party candidate is seen as "just a vote for Trump/whoever the Dem nominee is"


Agreed.

The other problem is that post-Apollo critical thinking and science education have been utter failures in most states - two generations later and now people believe whatever they are fed without evidence, and increasingly no matter how crazy.


You can blame the NEA’s stranglehold on our education system there.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:05 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The was the AG who supplied guns to Mexican drug gangs who then used them to shot US cops. Wonderful guy. Obama presided over the largest government interference in private industry yet—leftist in any view.


Unless we’re talking about Treasury buying $700 billion in ‘troubled assets’ - pretty massive interference in private industry, no?

Anyway, I didn’t hear you dispute the other actions of 44 I listed. To many on the left, he was decidedly and obviously centrist.
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windy95
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:55 pm

We need a party called the Balanced Budget and Follow the Constitution Party. The BBFCP
 
ltbewr
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:24 pm

Attempts to create 3rd parties in the USA have usually failed as one of the parties will take in its ideas and under our system, it is near impossible to get enough votes to win. In Presidential elections in the 20th & 21st Century, they have split or taken votes from a Democratic or Republican candidate. Nixon won in 1968 from American Party's George Wallace splintering off votes of the Democrat Humphrey and Bill Clinton won in 1992 in part from Ross Perot's 3rd Party taking votes from GWH Bush as examples. Even in a few cases where a 3rd Party candidate has won, like for Governor in Minnesota in the 1990's, it was with less than 50% of the total vote
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:48 pm

windy95 wrote:
We need a party called the Balanced Budget and Follow the Constitution Party. The BBFCP

I actually think the Constitutionalist Party is a good name for such a party. Emphasize individual liberties and prevent corporations and government from infringing on civil liberties and rights. While being pro gay/minority/womens rights, pro fiscal responsibility, pro improved infrastructure, reasonable gun control, pro stronger military (keeping M.A.D. core to our nuclear strategy), promoting real fair trade and commerce (moving away from China and starting to promote smaller, poorer nations through manufacturing), and fair on international diplomacy and cooperation.
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:34 am

TWA772LR wrote:
windy95 wrote:
We need a party called the Balanced Budget and Follow the Constitution Party. The BBFCP

I actually think the Constitutionalist Party is a good name for such a party. Emphasize individual liberties and prevent corporations and government from infringing on civil liberties and rights. While being pro gay/minority/womens rights, pro fiscal responsibility, pro improved infrastructure, reasonable gun control, pro stronger military (keeping M.A.D. core to our nuclear strategy), promoting real fair trade and commerce (moving away from China and starting to promote smaller, poorer nations through manufacturing), and fair on international diplomacy and cooperation.

But why be reasonable on any of these things when you can occupy one of the extremes?

A vote for your party is a vote for Trump/A vote for your party is a vote for the Democrats! :banghead:

(Just in case someone doesn't see the obvious sarcasm, I'm being sarcastic)
 
PPVRA
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:29 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
But let’s be honest here, the politicians are never going to do something that would open up the elections.


Purple/swing states might be able to initiate such a move. But there’s no widespread education effort to enlighten people on the subject.

I don't know every proposal out there but I think most would require a constitutional amendment... that'd require much much more than a handful of purple states.

Plus, they're "purple" not because they're a separate color from red or blue (as in, purple states aren't dominated by a third party.) They're purple because they're closer to 50/50 R and D, and those R and Ds aren't gonna want to give up their power

It would take a lot. A LOT


Today it's a matter of state law, not federal. Hence why two states don't have "winner take all" rules. You could change it at the federal level for everybody, but then yes, you'd likely need a constitutional amendment.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:49 pm

petertenthije wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
How would doing away with the winner takes all rules affect gerrymandering?

With proportional you would not need districts. You could do the voting for the entire state instead of for a district.


You don't need districts with this system. In fact, what makes it more complicated in the current "proportional+2" system of determining the number of delegates each state has is the +2 that comes from the senate. Note that senate elections are statewide and don't make use of districts.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:07 pm

Just an FYI, the two states that don't have "winner take all" rules assign their delegates via the "proportional+2" system. Meaning if a state has 20 total delegates, 18 will be assigned proportionally and the popular vote winner takes a bonus 2 delegates.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
cpd
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:50 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
I have said we needed this. It would be good. Right now there is about a third of the country that isn't represented by either party.


If the country needs it, then why do people vote for the same old thing every time? Stop supporting both of the old parties with funding and internet comments.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:12 pm

seb146 wrote:
That still would not work. Cities would still decide for an entire state.

Is that why Texas is blue? Why Salt Lake City and Phoenix have UT and AZ safely in the Democratic column? This argument that cities would decide for the entire state is ridiculous:
1. The fact that an overwhelming number of people live in one area does not take away the fact that each citizen there is still entitled to one vote. If your spread every Chicagoan through IL, would that affect the outcome of the election?
2. Even inside cities, there are people who do not necessarily vote according to how everyone else does, just like there are people in the countryside that do not vote how others do. Small fluctuations in turnout or independent leanings can essentially swing the election to someone that the city as whole is not voting for.
3. In a proportional system, the city becomes contained while boosting turnout everywhere else. Using IL as an example, Democrats dominate the state's delegation to the House because many districts are anchored around the Chicago area. Under a proportional system, using the 2018 results, Democrats would be entitled to 60% of the seats (10.8...round up to 11, compared to the current 13 they hold); Republicans would have about 38% (6.95...round up to 7, compared to their current 5). Republicans in the Chicago area and Democrats in the rural area would be enticed to vote because they're no longer stuck in districts where one side overwhelms them.
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seb146
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:09 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
seb146 wrote:
That still would not work. Cities would still decide for an entire state.

Is that why Texas is blue? Why Salt Lake City and Phoenix have UT and AZ safely in the Democratic column? This argument that cities would decide for the entire state is ridiculous:
1. The fact that an overwhelming number of people live in one area does not take away the fact that each citizen there is still entitled to one vote. If your spread every Chicagoan through IL, would that affect the outcome of the election?
2. Even inside cities, there are people who do not necessarily vote according to how everyone else does, just like there are people in the countryside that do not vote how others do. Small fluctuations in turnout or independent leanings can essentially swing the election to someone that the city as whole is not voting for.
3. In a proportional system, the city becomes contained while boosting turnout everywhere else. Using IL as an example, Democrats dominate the state's delegation to the House because many districts are anchored around the Chicago area. Under a proportional system, using the 2018 results, Democrats would be entitled to 60% of the seats (10.8...round up to 11, compared to the current 13 they hold); Republicans would have about 38% (6.95...round up to 7, compared to their current 5). Republicans in the Chicago area and Democrats in the rural area would be enticed to vote because they're no longer stuck in districts where one side overwhelms them.


Utah is controlled by the LDS church. They are very conservative. Look at many of the archaic laws there. Arizona, the average age is like 94. Salt Lake City and Phoenix are more open minded than other parts of their respective states. More "liberal" if you will.

I experienced this divide between the rural mind and the urban mind growing up. We only had what we were shown on the TV. Violence and crime all over Portland. Many people grew up believing that Portland was just a violent wasteland. We grew up believing that San Francisco was a constant gay orgy. We grew up believing that New York was as crime ridden as Portland. We grew up believing that Los Angeles was nothing but tan rich people. Things only got worse when Lars Larson became the anchor of the Portland news on Channel 12.

Some of us challenged those stereotypes. Some of us stayed in rural areas continuing to believe what we were/are told. I think that cities are more left leaning than rural areas is because we challenge the stereotypes. We understand that not all Muslims are terrorists, not all Mexicans are rapists, not all Republicans are racist. We have more opportunities in cities to see each other's differences and experience and celebrate them.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Does the US need a third political party?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:21 am

cpd wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I have said we needed this. It would be good. Right now there is about a third of the country that isn't represented by either party.


If the country needs it, then why do people vote for the same old thing every time? Stop supporting both of the old parties with funding and internet comments.

Because when the never-Trump crowd floated a GOP challenger, he was derided as a "vote for Hillary", splitting the GOP vote. When people thought Bernie was gonna maybe run independent they viewed him as a vote for Trump.

Usually a third challenger is a bit closer to one side or the other, so one side will get "split" and the other doubles down on their candidate/an assured win.

Gary Johnson may have potentially had a chance if he played his cards right (probably not) but his "what is Aleppo" comment certainly doomed him. Problem is Gary Johnson wasn't really a moderate but a libertarian which is not the same. Regardless, it's an uphill battle already for any third party candidate

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos