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Dutchy
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MH17 trial - discussion tread

Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:51 am

In order to keep the MH17 - trial tread clean, I suggest that any discussions about not. so relevant things in this thread in order not. to clutter the other thread with all kinds of not so relevant pieces.

So I copied the contribution of Anrec80 to here to give him the space to react.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A few days before the trail starts, new details emerge, how and when the Russian government tried to sabotage the MH17 investigations. Further how they tried to manipulate public opinion, especially in Russia itself.


Is there anything in this investigation or trial left to be sabotaged? Witnesses are anonymous. Evidence is from some “open sources”. The party that should be under investigation is on JIT. The suspects are not only free, they are also public persons, living their lives, giving interviews to journalists. Everyone knows where to find them and how to talk to them - except the investigators for some reason.

Dutchy wrote:
Most important that this trail is public and Russians can see for themselves what evidence there is against these four suspects.


Impatiently waiting...
Last edited by atcsundevil on Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited spelling in title
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:51 am

tommy1808 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Is there anything in this investigation or trial left to be sabotaged?


Good question, there probably is nothing left Russia can sabotage short of murdering witnesses.


Right,
> trying to influence public opinion in the west :checkmark:
> trying to distract Russians :checkmark:
> trying to influence the JIT outcome :checkmark:
> trying to sabotage the JIT :checkmark:

Indeed, next step would be murdering any witnesses.

Witnesses are anonymous.


Witness protection is normal if the guilty party is one using WMD attacks on people they don't like. If Russia was a real country instead of a Mafiacratie that wouldn't be necessary. Well, in fact all those people would still be alive....[/quote]

Anonymity is normal if the lives of these witnesses are threatened, as is with this case. As with any other case - against organized crime for instance - the case is put forward to a judge and it is for this judge to decide if they need to. have their anonymity guaranteed or not. As is evidence that not all witnesses were granted this status in this case.

The suspects are not only free, they are also public persons, living their lives, giving interviews to journalists. Everyone knows where to find them and how to talk to them -


The dutch court is probably willing to interview them any time, and even pay for the trip.[/quote]

No, they are standing trial, so the court isn't going to interview them, they are of course free to come and defend themselves. The Dutch court will not pay for it, they will, however, let them be arrested and then the trip will be fully paid for, including a hotel room with bars.

Impatiently waiting...


I don't see why evidence beyond the fact that it was shot down is needed. No matter who pressed the fire button Russia is guilty. Without their crime against humanity no one would have died.

Best regards
Thomas[/quote]

In this case, the Russian regime isn't put at trial, but four individuals. So the criminal countability of these four is in question, nothing else. The moral and criminal countability and liability will be later. First these four. As for our Anrac80, if he is so impatient, he will be following the trail for the next couple of months. It will be broadcasted on the internet.
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:24 pm

Dutchy wrote:
including a hotel room with bars. .


i only know Hotel rooms with one bar :D

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:46 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Is there anything in this investigation or trial left to be sabotaged?


Good question, there probably is nothing left Russia can sabotage short of murdering witnesses.


Probably nothing else. JIT has done it all. If you want to talk about witnesses - alright. Even if we assume for a moment Russia is a mafia state - does it even have a reason to do so. As of now, this whole thing can be (and is being) regarded as a cheap farce, but killing witnesses is a de-facto acknowledgment of legitimacy of the process. If I were a witness, I would be afraid of Kiev regime more - it’s led by war criminals who started their “governing” by killing a few dozens of people and later had no issues with ordering bombing their own cities. Hence they are perfectly capable for a few “sacred sacrifices” in order to blame Russia. And EU, as usual, will have little choice but to cover it up and “look the other way”.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:51 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
I don't see why evidence beyond the fact that it was shot down is needed. No matter who pressed the fire button Russia is guilty.

Best regards
Thomas


This says it all and uncovers the whole purpose of this petty show - Russia is to be appointed guilty. Nothing else. Having said that, we can no longer call this justice. It doesn’t matter what actually went on, who pressed the button, etc. The purpose of this “investigation” and “trial” is to somehow close the case. The truth doesn’t matter. This is what I am saying from day 1.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Anonymity is normal if the lives of these witnesses are threatened, as is with this case. As with any other case - against organized crime for instance - the case is put forward to a judge and it is for this judge to decide if they need to. have their anonymity guaranteed or not. As is evidence that not all witnesses were granted this status in this case.


Excuses, excuses... Nobody knows if this is for real or made up. Obviously by now, this farce cannot be trusted.

Dutchy wrote:
No, they are standing trial, so the court isn't going to interview them, they are of course free to come and defend themselves. The Dutch court will not pay for it, they will, however, let them be arrested and then the trip will be fully paid for, including a hotel room with bars.


Not exactly. They are in EU sanctions lists and will not be issued visas. And even if we assume that the trial process is fair and they are entitled for legal representation - for the same reason their legal representation cannot be paid.

Dutchy wrote:
In this case, the Russian regime isn't put at trial, but four individuals. So the criminal countability of these four is in question, nothing else. The moral and criminal countability and liability will be later. First these four. As for our Anrac80, if he is so impatient, he will be following the trail for the next couple of months. It will be broadcasted on the internet.


I know it will be broadcast. I am waiting to get some good laughter. And if I were you I would not embarrass myself to that point.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:49 pm

Let’s actually compose the whole picture of these “investigation” and “trial”.

* The party that should be under investigation (Ukraine) is on JIT, and they have vested interest in its outcome. Hence, it’s hard to call this investigation unbiased. Calls to investigate why Ukrainian airspace was not closed somehow went to Russia. And the most material evidence (missile with numbers) also points to Ukraine.
* Nobody from JIT has ever been to the crash site.
* The main version is based on some sort of “black hole theory” (even though last we’ve heard it a few years back, now it’s just boiling down to these 4 individuals). And even that was based on fakes.
* Malaysia (whose airliner was shot down) does not recognize this “process”.
* The main suspects are simply the most popular Facebook profiles. There are no others. It’s known where they are, but JIT and investigators haven’t made even a single attempt to question them. It’s the first time when I see the investigation that doesn’t even want to talk to the primary suspects - even though it’s normal for the investigators to offer an agreement. Tsemakh, for example, was offered a house in Netherlands in exchange for some testaments (according to him at least). There is no reason why Girkin could not be offered a changed identity and a house, say, in Australia (assuming he actually knows something relevant).

Hence the anonymity of witnesses isn’t even the biggest of the problems. It’s just if you put all that into one picture it comes together as total and cheap farce, not worth spending any time on. I just feel bad for victims families who will probably never get to the truth and are manipulated to stage shows by Russian embassy.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:22 pm

anrec80 wrote:
I know it will be broadcast. I am waiting to get some good laughter.

Interesting. I really don’t know if there is anything to laugh about.
 
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:35 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Interesting. I really don’t know if there is anything to laugh about.


Not much to laugh about, I agree. It will be laughter I’m order not to cry. I can only imagine feelings of victim’s families who are simply being manipulated and tricked into engaging into this comedy. All while nobody going through the whole chain of tragic events, investigating each and every link (starting with non-closure of the airspace while there were already planes hit). Nobody is ever going to go through it, and nobody was ever planning to.
 
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:15 pm

anrec80 wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Interesting. I really don’t know if there is anything to laugh about.


Not much to laugh about, I agree. It will be laughter I’m order not to cry. I can only imagine feelings of victim’s families who are simply being manipulated and tricked into engaging into this comedy. All while nobody going through the whole chain of tragic events, investigating each and every link (starting with non-closure of the airspace while there were already planes hit). Nobody is ever going to go through it, and nobody was ever planning to.


Read the safety report, JIT etc. And then get back to us.

In the end, there is only one quietly party and that is the one who pushed the button, everything else is just smoke and mirrors, mainly from our cormorants.
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alfa164
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 2:34 am

N14AZ wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
I know it will be broadcast. I am waiting to get some good laughter.

Interesting. I really don’t know if there is anything to laugh about.


Only a true Russian troll would laugh at the judicial findings of a duly authorized judicial commission, investing the deaths of almost 200 innocent victims.

A truly sick Russian troll...


anrec80 wrote:
It will be laughter I’m order not to cry..


Who ordered you not to cry? The same agents of the pariah state who are responsible for the tragedy?
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tommy1808
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:43 am

anrec80 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
I don't see why evidence beyond the fact that it was shot down is needed. No matter who pressed the fire button Russia is guilty.

Best regards
Thomas


This says it all and uncovers the whole purpose of this petty show - Russia is to be appointed guilty.


Russia isn´t "appointed" guilty, it is guilty. Without Russia, there would not have been a war in eastern Ukraine, a country Russia has invaded. Hence, regardless of who´s missile it was, it would have not been fired without Russia´s crime against humanity.

best regards
Thomas
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:54 am

I honestly don't get it.

Iran in the end admitted fault after shooting down, ironically enough, a Ukrainian passenger jet. Why can't Russia?

At the very least, hand over Igor Girkin & his band of incompetent fools who actually did the deed. If Putin does at least that, he can then have the moral right to go after the West if they decided to place sanctions against him.

Must we wait until Putin's death before we get justice for the 298 souls on board MH17?
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:15 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
I honestly don't get it.

Iran in the end admitted fault after shooting down, ironically enough, a Ukrainian passenger jet. Why can't Russia?

At the very least, hand over Igor Girkin & his band of incompetent fools who actually did the deed. If Putin does at least that, he can then have the moral right to go after the West if they decided to place sanctions against him.

Must we wait until Putin's death before we get justice for the 298 souls on board MH17?


If Russia / Putin regime admitted to supplying the BUK to Ukraine rebels or even regular Russian troops manning the BUK, they. are admitting that they are the ones waging a war with Ukraine. The Putin regime denied this in public, so it is a public secret. The sanctions are in place, not for the MH17, but because Russia is destabilizing eastern Ukraine and for annexing Crimea.

The situation is ridiculous, denying this while everyone knows what has happened. The Putin regime is just one big lie, the shooting down of MH17 is just one of the many examples of that.
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anrec80
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:27 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
At the very least, hand over Igor Girkin & his band of incompetent fools who actually did the deed. If Putin does at least that, he can then have the moral right to go after the West if they decided to place sanctions against him.


Speaking of sanctions - per Russia they are the problem of those who imposed them. In 2014, they made a few tens of billions of dollars on the noise around the sanctions, and now, using retaliatory measures, they are kicking out European manufacturers like Siemens out of the most profitable projects in their market.

Most countries do not hand their citizens over - just doesn’t happen. Russia offered JIT to arrange trial in a Russian court, present evidence against Girkin there. In addition, there are plenty of agreements regarding legal assistance between Russia and EU. JIT investigators could have requested to come to Russia to question the suspects, but did not bother even with that. The investigation that isn’t looking to get in contact with its primary suspects is kind of strange to say the least, isn’t it? The only rational explanation to this is that the suspects don’t know anything useful, and JIT knows it.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Must we wait until Putin's death before we get justice for the 298 souls on board MH17?


Russia was appointed guilty literally when the MH17 debris were still in the air. And JIT and this trial simply needs to keep this line now. Nobody was ever seeking any justice, isn’t seeking it now and isn’t planning to. I just can’t get rid of impression that all this JIT needs is to get any kind of absentee verdict and close this case. Overall, during 2500 history of today’s legal system, since ancient Roman Republic, it’s hard to find a farce similar to this one.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:28 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Russia isn´t "appointed" guilty, it is guilty. Without Russia, there would not have been a war in eastern Ukraine, a country Russia has invaded. Hence, regardless of who´s missile it was, it would have not been fired without Russia´s crime against humanity.


We need to begin with armed coup in Kiev that brought a bunch of war criminals to power, with Western (yes, including Dutch) support. This bunch later was called “democratic government”, started the war against own people, and ordered bombings of their own cities. Later, they also got onto the investigation team. This is where you need to begin looking.

Dutchy wrote:
In the end, there is only one quietly party and that is the one who pushed the button, everything else is just smoke and mirrors, mainly from our cormorants.


Aviation tragedies like this one don’t happen for one single reason. The parties would include those who led the plane into the area, those who ordered air defenses to be deployed, those who did not close airspace. But those parties are all to the west of the crash site, not to the east. And on JIT of course.
 
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:30 am

anrec80 wrote:
Russia was appointed guilty literally when the MH17 debris were still in the air. And JIT and this trial simply needs to keep this line now. Nobody was ever seeking any justice, isn’t seeking it now and isn’t planning to. I just can’t get rid of impression that all this JIT needs is to get any kind of absentee verdict and close this case. Overall, during 2500 history of today’s legal system, since ancient Roman Republic, it’s hard to find a farce similar to this one.


And indeed Russia is guilty. No two doubts about it.

But no worries, to paraphrase a quote from Gladiator "We will have our vengeance, in this life or the next."
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anrec80
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:37 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
And indeed Russia is guilty. No two doubts about it.

But no worries, to paraphrase a quote from Gladiator "We will have our vengeance, in this life or the next."


As the result of the comedy with absentee trial, investigation that doesn’t want its suspects and anonymous witnesses you can appoint guilty anyone you like - Russia, Somalia, Batman, Terminator, Superman. It’s just that nobody will take this “trial” seriously - even Malaysia doesn’t support accusing Russia, if you noticed. This is solely Dutch-led Western farce.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:46 am

anrec80 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
At the very least, hand over Igor Girkin & his band of incompetent fools who actually did the deed. If Putin does at least that, he can then have the moral right to go after the West if they decided to place sanctions against him.


Speaking of sanctions - per Russia they are the problem of those who imposed them. In 2014, they made a few tens of billions of dollars on the noise around the sanctions, and now, using retaliatory measures, they are kicking out European manufacturers like Siemens out of the most profitable projects in their market.

Most countries do not hand their citizens over - just doesn’t happen. Russia offered JIT to arrange trial in a Russian court, present evidence against Girkin there. In addition, there are plenty of agreements regarding legal assistance between Russia and EU. JIT investigators could have requested to come to Russia to question the suspects, but did not bother even with that. The investigation that isn’t looking to get in contact with its primary suspects is kind of strange to say the least, isn’t it? The only rational explanation to this is that the suspects don’t know anything useful, and JIT knows it.


Have a trail in Russia :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: A non-guilty verdict will be written in the Kremlin as soon as the states agreed to that. Russian courts aren't independent, so that is a no go. And since Putin didn't want to have an international court, the only option remained to do it in a Dutch court.

I am glad you are in the know with this one, otherwise, we would not have known what the JIT requested or not. :white: As we have learned from the article previously posted, Russia has done everything to undermine the JIT, something a guilty party would do, wouldn't you say?

anrec80 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Must we wait until Putin's death before we get justice for the 298 souls on board MH17?


Russia was appointed guilty literally when the MH17 debris were still in the air. And JIT and this trial simply needs to keep this line now. Nobody was ever seeking any justice, isn’t seeking it now and isn’t planning to. I just can’t get rid of impression that all this JIT needs is to get any kind of absentee verdict and close this case. Overall, during 2500 history of today’s legal system, since ancient Roman Republic, it’s hard to find a farce similar to this one.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: omg, seriously, since the Roman empire we haven't seen this, this is over the top melodramatic, wouldn't you say. In all seriousness, all the world can watch the trail, evidence will be presented for an independent judge in an excellent justice system. So if the JIT can't prove its case against these four individuals, the case will be thrown out and they will find the defendants not guilty. So, of course, your train of thought is faulty.

As for the absentee verdict, the defendants know they are on trial, so they are welcome to defend themselves, they probably can have the best lawyers put on their case, Putin will pay for it. But in reality, you are using the absentee as a clear sign it is a faulty trail, all bogus of course, but that will be the line of the Putin regime for its citizens. Not a fair trial because the defendants weren't there, ridiculous, otherwise it would be up to the defendant if a trial would be held or not and it isn't for obvious reasons.

I must say you begin to sound like an old record.
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:51 am

anrec80 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Russia isn´t "appointed" guilty, it is guilty. Without Russia, there would not have been a war in eastern Ukraine, a country Russia has invaded. Hence, regardless of who´s missile it was, it would have not been fired without Russia´s crime against humanity.


We need to begin with armed coup in Kiev that brought a bunch of war criminals to power, with Western (yes, including Dutch) support. This bunch later was called “democratic government”, started the war against own people, and ordered bombings of their own cities. Later, they also got onto the investigation team. This is where you need to begin looking.


which armed coup? Armed? Coup? You mean the president ordered the shooting of protesters? You know, the one who fled to Russia and was a Putin crony. People wanted more freedom and less corruption and his answer was bullets. Russia is the one who invaded its neighbor and annexed part of it. Russia is the aggressor, no matter how you like to spin it.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
In the end, there is only one quietly party and that is the one who pushed the button, everything else is just smoke and mirrors, mainly from our cormorants.


Aviation tragedies like this one don’t happen for one single reason. The parties would include those who led the plane into the area, those who ordered air defenses to be deployed, those who did not close airspace. But those parties are all to the west of the crash site, not to the east. And on JIT of course.


Like I said, people trying to defend the indefensible like to use smoke and mirrors. Everything and everybody is guilty except Putin, that is your line.
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tommy1808
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:07 am

anrec80 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Russia isn´t "appointed" guilty, it is guilty. Without Russia, there would not have been a war in eastern Ukraine, a country Russia has invaded. Hence, regardless of who´s missile it was, it would have not been fired without Russia´s crime against humanity.


We need to begin with armed coup in Kiev that brought a bunch of war criminals to power


Even if that was true, it would be irrelevant to the discussion, Russia still needs to return Crimea, and military intervention without an UN security council still remains a crime against humanity. Putin and his henchmen need to be Nuremberg trialed....

The Dutch should offer 10 Million/Head for the rendition of all charged.

best regards
Thomas
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:28 am

anrec80 wrote:
As the result of the comedy with absentee trial, investigation that doesn’t want its suspects and anonymous witnesses you can appoint guilty anyone you like - Russia, Somalia, Batman, Terminator, Superman. It’s just that nobody will take this “trial” seriously - even Malaysia doesn’t support accusing Russia, if you noticed.


No. It was the old Russia loving fogey Mahathir Mohamed who didn't support accusing Russia. As of last week, he's no longer the Prime Minister of Malaysia. Good riddance.
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:54 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
As the result of the comedy with absentee trial, investigation that doesn’t want its suspects and anonymous witnesses you can appoint guilty anyone you like - Russia, Somalia, Batman, Terminator, Superman. It’s just that nobody will take this “trial” seriously - even Malaysia doesn’t support accusing Russia, if you noticed.


No. It was the old Russia loving fogey Mahathir Mohamed who didn't support accusing Russia. As of last week, he's no longer the Prime Minister of Malaysia. Good riddance.


Indeed it was political, not something based on evidence.
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alfa164
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 4:52 pm

anrec80 wrote:
We need to begin with armed coup in Kiev that brought a bunch of war criminals to power, with Western (yes, including Dutch) support. This bunch later was called “democratic government”, started the war against own people, and ordered bombings of their own cities. Later, they also got onto the investigation team. This is where you need to begin looking.



You just can't restrain from injecting yourself into an otherwise serious forum in your continuous attempts to rewrite history here. It wasn't the Western powers or the civilian protesters who formented the violence in Kiev; it was a series of violent events towards those protesters in Kiev that culminated with the flight and subsequent impeachment of the then-President of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych. He was impeached by his own parliament.

Yanukovych had first promised to establish closer relations with the European Union and Russia in order to attract the capital necessary to maintain Ukraine's standard of living without affecting the local population significantly. One of these measures was an association agreement with the European Union which would provide Ukraine with funds contingent to several reforms in almost all aspects of Ukrainian society. Yanukovych first accepted the contingencies as fair, but ultimately refused to sign the agreement. Then Yanukovych signed a treaty and multi-billion dollar loan with Russia instead, which sparked civil unrest in Kiev that ultimately led to violent clashes as law enforcement troops cracked down on protesters.. Yanukovych fled the country into the open arms of Russia and has never returned.

And your excuses aside, I will repeat what I said before: None of this gives the madcap "rebels" an excuse to fire off a missile at the nearest aircraft they detected - only later to discover it was a passenger plane. They - and the parties who gave them the means to do so - are the villains who are responsible for the loss of life.. That is why this court exists, and that is why it will find the answers - the truth, which scares you so much.


Dutchy wrote:
which armed coup? Armed? Coup? You mean the president ordered the shooting of protesters? You know, the one who fled to Russia and was a Putin crony. People wanted more freedom and less corruption and his answer was bullets. Russia is the one who invaded its neighbor and annexed part of it. Russia is the aggressor, no matter how you like to spin it. .


:checkmark:
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:42 pm

Some inside in the Russian strategy with the MH17:

The Kremlin and the MH17 disaster: Hardly denying and throwing sand in eyes

From the first moment, the Russian Kremlin has denied any form of involvement in the downing of flight MH17 and has cast doubt on the causes of the air disaster. The MH17 process will start on Monday and it must be clear how sustainable that strategy is.

"The day after the disaster, Russian President Vladimir Putin expressed his condolences to the bereaved and fostered Prime Minister Mark Rutte," says Hubert Smeets, historian and co-founder of the Raam op Russia knowledge platform.

"He also said:" We have nothing to do with this. This happened above Ukrainian territory, we are outside of that. "

In the days after the disaster, the Russians come with their own story about the causes of the disaster. The Ministry of Defense claims that a Ukrainian fighter jet was the culprit. Radar images would prove that.

According to Smeets, the message from Russia was: you get it if you let a coup happen in Kiev and allow fascists and neo-Nazis to come to power. This was a reference to the Maidan revolution, which put an end to the regime of pro-Russian Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych in 2014.

If the Dutch Safety Board (OVV) asks for the radar images, the Russians first say that they have been deleted. After repeated requests, images are nevertheless supplied, but they have clearly been edited.

Russia's role in knocking down MH17 according to JIT
* BUK TELAR rocket installation came from Russian 53rd anti-aircraft brigade
* Rocket installation was loaned to pro-Russian separatists in Eastern Ukraine
* Russia is formally not militarily active in Eastern Ukraine
* Ukrainian separatists are in reality directly supported by Moscow

Conspiracy theories and trolls
The Russian government does not simply stop denying. Russian state media spread wild conspiracy theories about the causes of the disaster. And from a building in Saint Petersburg - the now infamous 'troll factory' of an ally of Putin - tens of thousands of messages are being spread in which Ukraine is blamed. They are primarily intended for domestic consumption.

In addition, Russia is constantly trying to discredit the international investigation into the disaster. Smeets: "They have not investigated our materials, are biased and do not want to listen, it is said. If the OVV and the international Joint Investigation Team (JIT) announced to come with a report, Moscow quickly organizes a press conference, where its own" facts "The Kremlin's strategy can be summarized with the word" spoiling. "

Putin: "Unfortunately no one wants to listen to us" Poetin: "Unfortunately no one wants to listen to us"

Russia: "We do not interfere with Ukraine at all"
Nicolaas Kraft van Ermel, a Russia and Ukraine connoisseur at the University of Groningen, explains the way in which the Russian government approaches the MH17 issue in two ways. In the longer term, there is a cultural pattern. "The current regime has strong roots in the intelligence services of the Soviet Union. Putin was educated there and received his training. The standard procedure then was to constantly deny the facts and at the same time throw sand in the eyes and put spokes on wheels "

Russia used the same method after the poisoning of the Russian old double spy Sergei Skripal in Salisbury in England in 2018. Just like the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 US presidential election.

Then there is the short-term explanation, which is related to the political conditions in Ukraine. "The line of the Kremlin is that Russia is not formally active there. That is, there are no Russian soldiers in that country and there have never been any. Russia does not interfere with internal affairs in Ukraine." (The annexation of another Ukrainian area, Crimea, is not covered by that claim. Moscow, after long denial, admitted that Russian soldiers were deployed there.)

Kraft van Ermel does not think that Moscow ordered the rifle rocket that would hit the MH17, but the Russian government was stuck by its own rhetoric after that perhaps unforeseen event.

Russian secret services were busy with MH17
rant described how these services worked in a reconstruction on Thursday. Phones from members of the Dutch Royal Netherlands Marechaussee who assist in the investigation at the disaster site are infected with malware. Two employees of the Russian military intelligence service GRU also travel to the Netherlands. It is not known what they are doing, but the newspaper cites an information source that says a relationship with MH17 is obvious. Russian hackers repeatedly try to get hold of investigation data.

Two former employees of the GRU are included in the Russian team that is investigating the disaster in consultation with the JIT. They consult daily with the Kremlin and make frantic attempts to get in touch with the Malaysian delegation in the JIT, the Dutch military intelligence service MIVD notes.

If the JIT and the Public Prosecution Service reveal in July 2019 which four suspects will be prosecuted, Putin's response leaves little to the imagination. "What is presented as proof of Russia's responsibility is completely unsatisfactory for us," he said. "There is no evidence. There is nothing to deduce from what has been presented. We have our own version and we have set it out."

The Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad immediately questions the conclusions in the JIT investigation, dismisses the evidence presented as "from hearing" and states that Russia is wrongly made a scapegoat.

Can the Kremlin continue to spread noise during the MH17 process?
In the run-up to the MH17 process, Russia is certainly continuing to deny, but Smeets believes that the approach has changed somewhat. "It is a little less brutal and more reserved than in recent years. The Russians are trying to make the process inadmissible by sowing doubts. There is no longer a really coherent alternative story. The theory about the Ukrainian fighter plane is silent, for example. died. "

Smeets finds it striking that one of the Russian suspects hired a Dutch lawyer to defend him, while his fellow suspects pretend that the trial does not affect them at all. "With that you implicitly say that you take the court seriously."

During the trial it must be established whether the Russian 'noise strategy' is still sustainable. "The process is likely to take a considerable time and it is likely that the OM will come up with new facts," says Smeets. "The Moscow authorities will still have to respond."


Link in Dutch


Nicolaas Kraft van Ermel, Russia and Ukraine expert wrote:
"Then it is very annoying if you have parties, such as the Dutch Public Prosecution Service, that try to find out what has happened there at all costs. And then of course you will try to counter that. As a state you have intelligence there- and security services for ".


and

Nicolaas Kraft van Ermel, Russia and Ukraine expert wrote:
"In the Soviet era, the fixed method was also: constantly denying the facts and at the same time throwing sand in the eyes and putting spokes in wheels"


Some interesting points I didn't know.

> one of the defendants got himself a Dutch lawyer, so at least he takes this court seriously.
> standard procedure of the Putin regime and the USSR: was to constantly deny the facts and at the same time throw sand in the eyes and put spokes on wheels
> Dutch military intelligence service notes."Two former employees of the GRU are included in the Russian team that is investigating the disaster in consultation with the JIT. They consult daily with the Kremlin and make frantic attempts to get in touch with the Malaysian delegation in the JIT," Active campaign to pull the Malaysians to the Russian side, not looking for the truth and the Russians send intelligence personal, not investigators.

> a lot of things we already knew: trolls send out hundreds of thousands of messages, Russian GRU was involved in the misinformation campaign, and of course the misdirection. and denials form the Russian side.
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tu204
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:08 pm

alfa164 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
We need to begin with armed coup in Kiev that brought a bunch of war criminals to power, with Western (yes, including Dutch) support. This bunch later was called “democratic government”, started the war against own people, and ordered bombings of their own cities. Later, they also got onto the investigation team. This is where you need to begin looking.



You just can't restrain from injecting yourself into an otherwise serious forum in your continuous attempts to rewrite history here. It wasn't the Western powers or the civilian protesters who formented the violence in Kiev; it was a series of violent events towards those protesters in Kiev that culminated with the flight and subsequent impeachment of the then-President of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych. He was impeached by his own parliament.

Yanukovych had first promised to establish closer relations with the European Union and Russia in order to attract the capital necessary to maintain Ukraine's standard of living without affecting the local population significantly. One of these measures was an association agreement with the European Union which would provide Ukraine with funds contingent to several reforms in almost all aspects of Ukrainian society. Yanukovych first accepted the contingencies as fair, but ultimately refused to sign the agreement. Then Yanukovych signed a treaty and multi-billion dollar loan with Russia instead, which sparked civil unrest in Kiev that ultimately led to violent clashes as law enforcement troops cracked down on protesters.. Yanukovych fled the country into the open arms of Russia and has never returned.



Sort of yes. But you are failing to mention some very important points.

First off, who was it that fired at the protestors in Kiev? There's a lot of evidence pointing to the fact of a provocation where both protestors and police were shot from the same weapons. Makes sense too. You also fail to mention that violence was going both ways, not only directed at the protestors. The shit these guys did would land you in jail for a good 10 years pretty much anywhere in Europe or the U.S.

Secondly, Yanukovitch wasn't impeached. The procedure is clearly written out in Ukraine's constitution and it wasn't followed, not enough votes for impeachment. So he wasn't impeached, he was illegally overthrown in a coup. After the coup, the guys that came to power decided to stage a civil war against their own people in the east that weren't too happy with the way they came to power. Sure there were a bunch of volunteers from Russia and probably supplies that came from Russia, but at the time that Kiev sent in troops it was only their own civilians that rose up and who were shot at. Don't distort history, look at Youtube videos from March of 2014 in Donetsk where tanks were being stopped by unarmed civilians.

You didn't mention this, but someone else did so I'll write this out again: Yanukovitch wasn't pro Russian, he was pro his personal interests and those oligarchs that brought him to power (Pinchuk, Akhmetov, Firtash), pretty much like Poroshenko who came after him. Putin didn't like them then or now for that matter. Perhaps the only correct thing he did was postpone signing the association agreement with the EU as that would greatly damage the economy and standards of living of the people with few benefits (which turned out to be correct). If it wasn't for the Hryvna losing 2/3 of it's value, Ukraine would have no economy today.
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:36 pm

Again rewriting history. Yanukovitch was impeached and they managed as good as they could, Yanukovitch fled to Russia and he still is there, so if the Putin regime didn't like him, why wasn't he put on a plane to Kyiv? I am sure he would be tried there for corruption among other things. But no, the Putin regime decided to protect him.
The Putin regime has sent regular troops to Ukraine, many have died there. Actually 400-500 according to some sources. So they did quite a bit more than just supply. And of course, Putin himself, already admitted the "Green men" in Crimea were regular Russian troops, so yes, in Crimea there was a coup and yes, everything after that, including the coup, was and is illegal.

Is the shooting theory you present here, one out of the pocket of the GRU? Or can you actually base it in reality?

So stop re-writing history, please. You just re-use many of the lies coming from the Kremlin.

But more importantly. Tu204, we aren't talking about Yanukovitch, but the murder of 298 innocent passengers and crew of the MH17, shot down by a Russian military BUK.
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alfa164
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:02 pm

tu204 wrote:
First off, who was it that fired at the protestors in Kiev? There's a lot of evidence pointing to the fact of a provocation where both protestors and police were shot from the same weapons.



"... a lot of evidence"? Show it to us. Prove it. Otherwise... there is not a "lot of evidence".


tu204 wrote:
Secondly, Yanukovitch wasn't impeached.



Yes, he was. Again... where are your facts?


tu204 wrote:
Sure there were a bunch of volunteers from Russia and probably supplies that came from Russia, but at the time that Kiev sent in troops it was only their own civilians that rose up and who were shot at.



You mean those "volunteers" who were posting photos of themselves - wearing Russian military uniforms - and laughing about their "assignment" inside Ukraine? Yes, those "volunteers"....


tu204 wrote:
You didn't mention this, but someone else did so I'll write this out again: Yanukovitch wasn't pro Russian, he was pro his personal interests and those oligarchs that brought him to power (Pinchuk, Akhmetov, Firtash), pretty much like Poroshenko who came after him.



Your "wasn't pro-Russian" Yanukovitch certainly seemed "pro-Russian" when he fled into the arms of Putin - although it is probably true that his first political philosophy was pro-corruption. Hence the reason he was despised by the electorate impeached (yes, impeached) by his own party.


tu204 wrote:
Perhaps the only correct thing he did was postpone signing the association agreement with the EU as that would greatly damage the economy and standards of living of the people with few benefits (which turned out to be correct). If it wasn't for the Hryvna losing 2/3 of it's value, Ukraine would have no economy today.



Ukraine's economy suffers today because of the monies it is forced to spend to fend off the Russian invasion inside its borders. Putin and his cronies are doing everything they can to undermine both the political and the economic opportunities the Ukrainian people should be enjoying. It is their presence that led to the downing of MH-17 - which, despite the attempts to derail the subject, is the real topic of this discussion.
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anrec80
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:06 pm

alfa164 wrote:
You just can't restrain from injecting yourself into an otherwise serious forum in your continuous attempts to rewrite history here. It wasn't the Western powers or the civilian protesters who formented the violence in Kiev; it was a series of violent events towards those protesters in Kiev that culminated with the flight and subsequent impeachment of the then-President of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych. He was impeached by his own parliament.


Ukrainian constitution clearly defines an impeachment process. A parliament itself cannot impeach a President, you need decisions from Supreme Court and Constitutional Court fo that. Which never happened obviously. And for this reason, nobody in Ukraine has ever stated that Yanukovich was impeached. He “has been found to have self-abstained”, “ran away”, etc. (regardless that there is nothing in constitution whatsoever about “self-abstainment” or “running away”). If you ever wanted this to have at least a trace of legitimacy, then-opposition should have at least killed him (not that they did not try).

Speaking of violence and shooting - nobody in Ukraine now considers seriously that Yanukovich has anything to do with this. All traces go to either protesters or another “democratizer” Saakashvili (who was kicked out of his own country by then). And furthermore, as digging is slowly going on, it was announced by Ukrainian politicians that good half of claimed violence victims had nothing to do with Maidan, and were just random people who died for all sorts of reasons around those days in random Kiev hospitals.

Dutchy wrote:
which armed coup? Armed? Coup? You mean the president ordered the shooting of protesters? You know, the one who fled to Russia and was a Putin crony. People wanted more freedom and less corruption and his answer was bullets. Russia is the one who invaded its neighbor and annexed part of it. Russia is the aggressor, no matter how you like to spin it.



Yes. Armed. Coup. As the impeachment procedure has never been followed, there was, to say the least, an illegal seizure of power. A very heavy crime against any country and any nation. And EU and its then-leadership (as well as some individual nations), by recognizing and legitimizing it, became a party in this heavy crime. Later, EU looked the other way when the characters who seized power ordered bombings of their own cities, thus becoming accomplices in series of war crimes that time. This is how it all unfolded, and if you want to look for state actors at fault, begin with your own city. Had there been no Western meddling, the people would have been alive, and planes to Malaysia and Singapore would have been overflying Ukraine, saving maybe what - 30 min each way?

Speaking of “aggression”, nobody has ever seen any Russian aggressor, dead or alive. You are looking for the wrong thing in the wrong place.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:24 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
No. It was the old Russia loving fogey Mahathir Mohamed who didn't support accusing Russia. As of last week, he's no longer the Prime Minister of Malaysia. Good riddance.


Perhaps. I don’t see that a reason for any change though. Ties between Russia and Malaysia are minuscule, they aren’t adversaries, but not close either. Putin probably saw Mahathir maybe a few times, if that at all. Malaysia has no reason to be pro-Western either. It’s located in entirely different region of the world and has no reason to stick in on any side of Russia-West arguments.
 
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:27 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Speaking of “aggression”, nobody has ever seen any Russian aggressor, dead or alive. You are looking for the wrong thing in the wrong place.


Yes, speaking of Russian aggression: Invisible army: the story of a Russian soldier sent to fight in Ukraine or Novaya Gazeta interview with Russian soldiers captured in Ukraine.

Or indeed the Russian green men in Crimea. So yes, Russians or better the Putin regime, are the aggressors which let to the shooting down of the MH17.

So, now that I have proven to you - and everybody else - that somebody did see Russian troops in Ukraine, are you going to look in the right place? Or do you want to continue the charade?
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:31 pm

anrec80 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
No. It was the old Russia loving fogey Mahathir Mohamed who didn't support accusing Russia. As of last week, he's no longer the Prime Minister of Malaysia. Good riddance.


Perhaps. I don’t see that a reason for any change though. Ties between Russia and Malaysia are minuscule, they aren’t adversaries, but not close either. Putin probably saw Mahathir maybe a few times, if that at all. Malaysia has no reason to be pro-Western either. It’s located in entirely different region of the world and has no reason to stick in on any side of Russia-West arguments.


And the Malaysian prosecutors and investigators in the JIT, fully support the JIT outcome and as you yourself noted, Malasia isn't particularly pro-western or anti-Russian.

But tell me, why did the MIVD found that the GRU tried to contact the Malaysian delegation with the JIT? See the article previously posted.
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anrec80
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Have a trail in Russia :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: A non-guilty verdict will be written in the Kremlin as soon as the states agreed to that. Russian courts aren't independent, so that is a no go. And since Putin didn't want to have an international court, the only option remained to do it in a Dutch court.


Russian court is the only option of having suspects imprisoned - In Russia, only a Russian court can order a sentence. Just as it is in the USA, Netherlands, etc. Hence the options are wither Russian court, or continue with this farce.

Dutchy wrote:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: omg, seriously, since the Roman empire we haven't seen this, this is over the top melodramatic, wouldn't you say.


This is not a melodrama even anymore, this has long turned into a cheap low key comedy.

Dutchy wrote:
In all seriousness, all the world can watch the trail, evidence will be presented for an independent judge in an excellent justice system.


You need to be more careful about the statements about your “excellent justice system”. Everyone still remembers how Milosevic spent over a decade in jail in The Hague, was denied treatment, died there and later it was found there was never any case against him. If you want someone to come to such “justice system” you will need to look for idiots elsewhere, if they still exist. First, you need to launder yourself off that.

Here is another look from the most democratic country at your “excellent justice system”.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/05/politics ... index.html

This is a truly breathtaking action by an unaccountable political institution masquerading as a legal body," Pompeo said Thursday during remarks at the State Department. "It is all the more reckless for this ruling to come just days after the United States signed a historic peace deal on Afghanistan, which is the best chance for peace in a generation."
"The United States is not a party to the ICC, and we will take all necessary measures to protect our citizens from this renegade, so-called court," he said.


This is all that needs to be known about your “excellent justice system”. And this MH17 farce is certainly of zero value at best here.

Dutchy wrote:
But in reality, you are using the absentee as a clear sign it is a faulty trail, all bogus of course, but that will be the line of the Putin regime for its citizens. Not a fair trial because the defendants weren't there, ridiculous, otherwise it would be up to the defendant if a trial would be held or not and it isn't for obvious reasons.


There is a whole bunch of problems and flaws with this “trial”, and it being absentee one is only one of them.

Look - for majority of people this absentee trial is like “when I am not there, let them even beat me there”. It’s simply no longer important. It’s not important even for Ukraine, as Tsemakh story shows. For most suspects - they are living their daily lives, and nothing in there will change whether or not this court finds them guilty, and if yes - how much they get at the end. This is simply not relevant. “Putin regime” certainly has little reason to care what’s going on there. They won’t acknowledge this, and they can just say “we do not comment statements by anonymous individuals”.

It’s like for me your opinion of me. You can meet up with your MP friend, squeeze a 6-pack of Heineken and decide that I am bad enough to sit in your bathroom for 3 months. The two of you can even grant me some right to present myself. Do I have any reason to care about it? No, obviously. I have no immediate plans to visit neither The Hague nor your house (unless you invite me - then maybe :) ). I have my own life, my own things to do and you over there can think of me anything you like.
 
alfa164
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:13 pm

PREVIOUS POST CORRECTED HERE:

anrec80 wrote:
Speaking of violence and shooting - nobody in Ukraine now considers seriously that Yanukovich has anything to do with this. All traces go to either protesters or another “democratizer” Saakashvili (who was kicked out of his own country by then).

anrec80 wrote:
And furthermore, as digging is slowly going on, it was announced by Ukrainian politicians that good half of claimed violence victims had nothing to do with Maidan, and were just random people who died for all sorts of reasons around those days in random Kiev hospitals.



Sure...right... but make up your mind! Was it the protesters... or Saakashvili... or really nobody at all, just "random people who died"...? Or is this just more typical Russian propaganda: throw out one or two or six or eight totally unsubstantiated theories, and hope something sticks?

:roll:

I think we all know that answer...


anrec80 wrote:
Speaking of “aggression”, nobody has ever seen any Russian aggressor, dead or alive. You are looking for the wrong thing in the wrong place.



I only have one more question: have you ever - at any time, even once - had any regard for the truth? Ever?[/quote]
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:18 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Russian court is the only option of having suspects imprisoned - In Russia, only a Russian court can order a sentence. Just as it is in the USA, Netherlands, etc. Hence the options are wither Russian court, or continue with this farce.


It is a false statement. No, it isn't, Dutch courts are perfectly capable of sentence someone to prison. Russian courts will never ever send these men to prison (there are Ukrainians with them, so your Russian courts don't have any jurisdiction there, unless you promote here that Russia is ruling there), no matter what the evidence is. As mentioned and as everyone knows Russian courts are the Kremlin courts, so they will never ever convict someone who is linked to the Kremlin. So this is a farce you repeat again and again.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: omg, seriously, since the Roman empire we haven't seen this, this is over the top melodramatic, wouldn't you say.


This is not a melodrama even anymore, this has long turned into a cheap low key comedy.


Your statement, so yes I agree with your assessment of your statements.

anrec80 wrote:
You need to be more careful about the statements about your “excellent justice system”. Everyone still remembers how Milosevic spent over a decade in jail in The Hague, was denied treatment, died there and later it was found there was never any case against him. If you want someone to come to such “justice system” you will need to look for idiots elsewhere, if they still exist. First, you need to launder yourself off that.

Here is another look from the most democratic country at your “excellent justice system”.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/05/politics ... index.html

This is a truly breathtaking action by an unaccountable political institution masquerading as a legal body," Pompeo said Thursday during remarks at the State Department. "It is all the more reckless for this ruling to come just days after the United States signed a historic peace deal on Afghanistan, which is the best chance for peace in a generation."
"The United States is not a party to the ICC, and we will take all necessary measures to protect our citizens from this renegade, so-called court," he said.


This is all that needs to be known about your “excellent justice system”. And this MH17 farce is certainly of zero value at best here.


First, read up then make statements. The International Criminal Court is an UN court, has nothing to do with Dutch justice system. And Milosevic was tried before the Jogoslav tribunal, so again an UN court, has nothing to do with the Dutch justice system. So this "argument" is at pair with all your other arguments.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
But in reality, you are using the absentee as a clear sign it is a faulty trail, all bogus of course, but that will be the line of the Putin regime for its citizens. Not a fair trial because the defendants weren't there, ridiculous, otherwise it would be up to the defendant if a trial would be held or not and it isn't for obvious reasons.


There is a whole bunch of problems and flaws with this “trial”, and it being absentee one is only one of them.

Look - for majority of people this absentee trial is like “when I am not there, let them even beat me there”. It’s simply no longer important. It’s not important even for Ukraine, as Tsemakh story shows. For most suspects - they are living their daily lives, and nothing in there will change whether or not this court finds them guilty, and if yes - how much they get at the end. This is simply not relevant. “Putin regime” certainly has little reason to care what’s going on there. They won’t acknowledge this, and they can just say “we do not comment statements by anonymous individuals”.

It’s like for me your opinion of me. You can meet up with your MP friend, squeeze a 6-pack of Heineken and decide that I am bad enough to sit in your bathroom for 3 months. The two of you can even grant me some right to present myself. Do I have any reason to care about it? No, obviously. I have no immediate plans to visit neither The Hague nor your house (unless you invite me - then maybe :) ). I have my own life, my own things to do and you over there can think of me anything you like.


> Absentee is not a problem, but a choice of these four.
> Anonymous witnesses are normal when they are threatened with their lives, given the Putin regime's past behavior they have all reason to be afraid, as has been recognized by an independent judge.
> Anonymous witnesses are only part of the evidence which is going to be presented, are you going to wave everything away just as easily?
> One of them takes it seriously enough to pay for a Dutch Lawyer to represent him in court.
> The Putin regime cares enough to have the GRU involved and to send his troll army all over the internet.
> Tsemakh? Your Putin regime demanded that he was released otherwise Ukrainian sailors would not be allowed to leave Russia, which illegally detained them.
> Heineken is for foreigners, I rather drink a good beer......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:06 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Sure...right... but make up your mind! Was it the protesters... or Saakashvili... or really nobody at all, just "random people who died"...? Or is this just more typical Russian propaganda: throw out one or two or six or eight totally unsubstantiated theories, and hope something sticks?


Russians don’t involve into Maidan mess. Nobody in Ukraine is blaming Yanukovich or his riot police forces for anything related to that violence. Who exactly was that - we can maintain only minuscule hope to find out. I mentioned above a couple of Ukrainian versions.

alfa164 wrote:
I only have one more question: have you ever - at any time, even once - had any regard for the truth? Ever?
[/quote]

What I was mentioning you in this post is Ukrainian point of view, not Russian. Not official Ukrainian, but prevailing. In all prisoner exchanges, from both sides only Ukrainian citizens take part.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:20 pm

anrec80 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Sure...right... but make up your mind! Was it the protesters... or Saakashvili... or really nobody at all, just "random people who died"...? Or is this just more typical Russian propaganda: throw out one or two or six or eight totally unsubstantiated theories, and hope something sticks?


Russians don’t involve into Maidan mess. Nobody in Ukraine is blaming Yanukovich or his riot police forces for anything related to that violence. Who exactly was that - we can maintain only minuscule hope to find out. I mentioned above a couple of Ukrainian versions.

alfa164 wrote:
I only have one more question: have you ever - at any time, even once - had any regard for the truth? Ever?


What I was mentioning you in this post is Ukrainian point of view, not Russian. Not official Ukrainian, but prevailing. In all prisoner exchanges, from both sides only Ukrainian citizens take part.


your syntax is a bit different compared to "your" previous posts....

Question not answered........

Anyhow, so you say, but you don't present any evidence. And your contribution is too flexible to take your word for it. In the MH17 trial, evidence will be presented. All this talk about the Maidan protests is off-topic, this trial will be about a Russian military supplied BUK missile system and how it murdered 298 people, among them 198 fellow countrymen. Nothing more, nothing less.
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anrec80
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:27 pm

Dutchy wrote:
It is a false statement. No, it isn't, Dutch courts are perfectly capable of sentence someone to prison.


Sure they can sentence, but if the person isn't there, this will be just that. And if the trial is absentee trial, and the suspect doesn’t take part - then this is not a competitive trial, and hence one sided. It’s not even good, it’s “better than nothing”. But not much, and still has its drawbacks.

Dutchy wrote:
Russian courts will never ever send these men to prison (there are Ukrainians with them, so your Russian courts don't have any jurisdiction there, unless you promote here that Russia is ruling there), no matter what the evidence is. As mentioned and as everyone knows Russian courts are the Kremlin courts, so they will never ever convict someone who is linked to the Kremlin.


The only sure way to find that out, and as well to have a real chance of impressing these men, is to go to Russian court. You will have to present your evidence of course - and yes, it all will be questioned. “Anonymous witnesses” may not fly as well.


Dutchy wrote:
First, read up then make statements. The International Criminal Court is an UN court, has nothing to do with Dutch justice system. And Milosevic was tried before the Jogoslav tribunal, so again an UN court, has nothing to do with the Dutch justice system. So this "argument" is at pair with all your other arguments.


I understand that you guys have (or at least had) a goal of establishing yourselves as a leader in international justice, and hence accept those judicial bodies. But you also need to understand that you are putting your reputation as well. You can’t first let into your country some doubtful establishments and then say “it’s not us it’s UN”. And this JIT thing doesn’t help either, with that many issues.

Dutchy wrote:
> Absentee is not a problem, but a choice of these four.

These four don’t care, whether or not there will be anything, and what will it be. Well, one of them is curious apparently


Dutchy wrote:
> Anonymous witnesses are normal when they are threatened with their lives, given the Putin regime's past behavior they have all reason to be afraid, as has been recognized by an independent judge.
> Anonymous witnesses are only part of the evidence which is going to be presented, are you going to wave everything away just as easily?


Yes, but when there are grounded suspicions that the process is political, stuff like anonymous witnesses doesn’t help, obviously.

Dutchy wrote:
> One of them takes it seriously enough to pay for a Dutch Lawyer to represent him in court.

At least somebody takes this seriously. What an achievement!

Dutchy wrote:
> The Putin regime cares enough to have the GRU involved and to send his troll army all over the internet.

To me, all these “GRU” articles are old town legends.

Dutchy wrote:
> Tsemakh? Your Putin regime demanded that he was released otherwise Ukrainian sailors would not be allowed to leave Russia, which illegally detained them.


This is what I am talking about as well. Ukraine has other priorities now.

Dutchy wrote:
> Heineken is for foreigners, I rather drink a good beer......


I am glad you know how to enjoy life. We should perhaps start a thread on good local craft beer. Thoughts?
 
anrec80
Posts: 2731
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:37 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Anyhow, so you say, but you don't present any evidence. And your contribution is too flexible to take your word for it. In the MH17 trial, evidence will be presented.


Let’s see what will be presented.

Dutchy wrote:
All this talk about the Maidan protests is off-topic, this trial will be about a Russian military supplied BUK missile system and how it murdered 298 people, among them 198 fellow countrymen. Nothing more, nothing less.


I don’t find Maidan talk that off topic, once you guys are entering territory of accountability of different countries. After all, this is EU-sponsored endeavor, and hence EU should take its share of fault. Whose BUK, let’s see, but so far material evidence (not anonymous witnesses) points to Ukraine. That said - as I said before, I do understand your feelings, but unproven allegations don’t help anything.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:43 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Anyhow, so you say, but you don't present any evidence. And your contribution is too flexible to take your word for it. In the MH17 trial, evidence will be presented.


Let’s see what will be presented.


Indeed we will see.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
All this talk about the Maidan protests is off-topic, this trial will be about a Russian military supplied BUK missile system and how it murdered 298 people, among them 198 fellow countrymen. Nothing more, nothing less.


I don’t find Maidan talk that off topic, once you guys are entering territory of accountability of different countries. After all, this is EU-sponsored endeavor, and hence EU should take its share of fault. Whose BUK, let’s see, but so far material evidence (not anonymous witnesses) points to Ukraine. That said - as I said before, I do understand your feelings, but unproven allegations don’t help anything.


Maidan is off-topic, you are just shifting your ground trying to shift blame to the EU with. false allegations.

What material evidence? You only say it, present nothing from credible sources. But if you have material evidence, why not present it to the JIT? They will look at it and investigate it, if it is credible or not.

As I said before, it is up to the JIT to prove it in court, the trial will begin on Monday and will end at the end of the year or beyond. We will see if they get convicted or not. I will accept anything the court says: let them free for lack of evidence to life in prison, do you?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:58 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It is a false statement. No, it isn't, Dutch courts are perfectly capable of sentence someone to prison.


Sure they can sentence, but if the person isn't there, this will be just that. And if the trial is absentee trial, and the suspect doesn’t take part - then this is not a competitive trial, and hence one sided. It’s not even good, it’s “better than nothing”. But not much, and still has its drawbacks.


One has a lawyer and I am not exactly sure what happens, I am not a lawyer or judge, but I am sure someone will look out for people on trial, even if they don't show up. Judges will make sure of that. As said, it is a choice of these four not to show up.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Russian courts will never ever send these men to prison (there are Ukrainians with them, so your Russian courts don't have any jurisdiction there, unless you promote here that Russia is ruling there), no matter what the evidence is. As mentioned and as everyone knows Russian courts are the Kremlin courts, so they will never ever convict someone who is linked to the Kremlin.


The only sure way to find that out, and as well to have a real chance of impressing these men, is to go to Russian court. You will have to present your evidence of course - and yes, it all will be questioned. “Anonymous witnesses” may not fly as well.


If we wanted to do that, we could just ask Putin to write the not guilty verdict and spare the expense of a trial. Russian courts have no part in this. The Ukrainian government struck a deal that this trial is in the Netherlands. The trial is before a Dutch court with the law enforced.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
First, read up then make statements. The International Criminal Court is an UN court, has nothing to do with Dutch justice system. And Milosevic was tried before the Jogoslav tribunal, so again an UN court, has nothing to do with the Dutch justice system. So this "argument" is at pair with all your other arguments.


I understand that you guys have (or at least had) a goal of establishing yourselves as a leader in international justice, and hence accept those judicial bodies. But you also need to understand that you are putting your reputation as well. You can’t first let into your country some doubtful establishments and then say “it’s not us it’s UN”. And this JIT thing doesn’t help either, with that many issues.


False statement as usual. UN courts have nothing to do with this. But I guess you couldn't find any good drawbacks of Dutch courts and the justice system. The JIT thing is helping to underpin how the justice system works. A very difficult case with many international dimensions and they succeded to bring it to court.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
> Absentee is not a problem, but a choice of these four.

These four don’t care, whether or not there will be anything, and what will it be. Well, one of them is curious apparently


Curious? You mean he has attained a lawyer........... Bizar use of the word curious.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
> Anonymous witnesses are normal when they are threatened with their lives, given the Putin regime's past behavior they have all reason to be afraid, as has been recognized by an independent judge.
> Anonymous witnesses are only part of the evidence which is going to be presented, are you going to wave everything away just as easily?


Yes, but when there are grounded suspicions that the process is political, stuff like anonymous witnesses doesn’t help, obviously.


Suspicions? Suspicions in Russia perhaps. Again unfounded and not given any evidence, thus not a reliable statement by you, again.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
> One of them takes it seriously enough to pay for a Dutch Lawyer to represent him in court.

At least somebody takes this seriously. What an achievement!


Make up your mind, is he just curious or does he take it seriously? Can't be both :lol:

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
> The Putin regime cares enough to have the GRU involved and to send his troll army all over the internet.

To me, all these “GRU” articles are old town legends.


Sure, for you everything is a fairytale, for the rest of the world, it is real. Just one more statement from you to not take you seriously.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
> Tsemakh? Your Putin regime demanded that he was released otherwise Ukrainian sailors would not be allowed to leave Russia, which illegally detained them.


This is what I am talking about as well. Ukraine has other priorities now.


It doesn't matter. It is a Dutch trial.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
> Heineken is for foreigners, I rather drink a good beer......


I am glad you know how to enjoy life. We should perhaps start a thread on good local craft beer. Thoughts?


Be my guest, if you can actually present evidence there, it would be a step up for you.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2027
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:10 am

anrec80 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
No. It was the old Russia loving fogey Mahathir Mohamed who didn't support accusing Russia. As of last week, he's no longer the Prime Minister of Malaysia. Good riddance.


Perhaps. I don’t see that a reason for any change though. Ties between Russia and Malaysia are minuscule, they aren’t adversaries, but not close either. Putin probably saw Mahathir maybe a few times, if that at all. Malaysia has no reason to be pro-Western either. It’s located in entirely different region of the world and has no reason to stick in on any side of Russia-West arguments.


Then if they side with the JIT, it means the facts are proven to be accurate.

So what's this about Russia being set up as the fall guy?
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:23 pm

Please keep the thread on topic. Off topic comments will be deleted, so please ensure your comment doesn't drift from the point of this discussion.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
anrec80
Posts: 2731
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:38 am

Dutchy wrote:
What material evidence? You only say it, present nothing from credible sources. But if you have material evidence, why not present it to the JIT? They will look at it and investigate it, if it is credible or not.


I was referring to Russian data on missile that JIT showed and requested from Russia. It pointed that the missile was sent to Western Ukraine in 1986. We haven't heard anything from Ukraine on that missile at all. No questions were asked and no answers were provided.

Dutchy wrote:
As I said before, it is up to the JIT to prove it in court, the trial will begin on Monday and will end at the end of the year or beyond. We will see if they get convicted or not. I will accept anything the court says: let them free for lack of evidence to life in prison, do you?


I don't see any of that as acceptable. Any court, even the most independent and unbiased, will work with what's provided to them. The judges don't have any real means to verify testaments of witnesses, they will not go to the crash site to actually see what a witness or a prosecutor is talking about. What do they work with and what's being provided? The only source of information of JIT is Ukrainian party, there is no other. As it's well known by now, Ukrainian regime consists of rare crooks and war criminals, who ordered bombings of their own cities. They are capable of anything, and for them forging evidence, appointing fake witnesses and stuff like that is normal. They have vested interest in concealing their crimes and pointing the investigation in the wrong direction.

This is one of the reasons (among others) of their aggressive stand against Russia - Russia, unlike EU, has real means to validate their statements, while Dutch-led investigation will work with any garbage they are fed. They will have no other choice simply, especially given demands of Dutch society for some results. Speaking of court - as we put it in software engineering - "garbage in, garbage out". The result here may look like something meaningful, but it can be only as good as input is.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2731
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:17 am

Dutchy wrote:
False statement as usual. UN courts have nothing to do with this. But I guess you couldn't find any good drawbacks of Dutch courts and the justice system. The JIT thing is helping to underpin how the justice system works. A very difficult case with many international dimensions and they succeded to bring it to court.


A great and well functioning justice system requires all of its links to be functioning like a Swiss clock, and be staffed with competent professionals. There has to be competent defense, independent judges, competent unbiased prosecution, competitive trial, and, of course, all these professionals have to abide to the highest standards of ethics. In this case, when you have Ukrainian criminals, ethics is the first thing that has been thrown into the garbage. And defense - there is no way they can compete with witnesses who are unknown and whose testaments are not verifiable, and evidence not known to be not forged. This is simply not fair to make someone take part in that.

This trial more and more resembles a shady poker club full of card sharpers who play with marked cards and carry aces in their sleeves. Obviously, a regular reasonable person is better off just not going to those places. Hence the position of Russia - "this is not our investigation" and of suspects - "let them do whatever they want over there".
 
anrec80
Posts: 2731
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:33 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Then if they side with the JIT, it means the facts are proven to be accurate.


I don't know, let's see what Mahathir's successor will do, if anything.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
So what's this about Russia being set up as the fall guy?


A lot - it's largely ideological reasons. In 2014 EU has brought to power a regime of crooks and war criminals. It has marketed it as a "democratic government", and the latter, just as Caesar's wife, must be beyond suspicion. If we start questioning Ukrainian side, we have to start acknowledging that too many things are not alright there, and cast shadows on many respected and reputable EU officials and institutions. And most importantly - ideology of EU's support of Ukraine. And the latter cannot be allowed to happen in EU. Hence we have all that monkeying with "anonymous witnesses" and stuff.

Actual truth, what went on - nobody cares about it at this point. Priorities are different now.
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:37 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
What material evidence? You only say it, present nothing from credible sources. But if you have material evidence, why not present it to the JIT? They will look at it and investigate it, if it is credible or not.


I was referring to Russian data on missile that JIT showed and requested from Russia. It pointed that the missile was sent to Western Ukraine in 1986. We haven't heard anything from Ukraine on that missile at all. No questions were asked and no answers were provided.


Russian data......... we know that Russia provided the JIT with a false radar readout and somehow you find Russian data of the highest standard. Seems to me you are ideology-driven, not fact-driven. Anyhow, I am sure any competent Lawyer will bring this up if it has any merit of truth in it. Up to the judges to decide if they are presented with two different stories.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
As I said before, it is up to the JIT to prove it in court, the trial will begin on Monday and will end at the end of the year or beyond. We will see if they get convicted or not. I will accept anything the court says: let them free for lack of evidence to life in prison, do you?


I don't see any of that as acceptable. Any court, even the most independent and unbiased, will work with what's provided to them. The judges don't have any real means to verify testaments of witnesses, they will not go to the crash site to actually see what a witness or a prosecutor is talking about. What do they work with and what's being provided? The only source of information of JIT is Ukrainian party, there is no other. As it's well known by now, Ukrainian regime consists of rare crooks and war criminals, who ordered bombings of their own cities. They are capable of anything, and for them forging evidence, appointing fake witnesses and stuff like that is normal. They have vested interest in concealing their crimes and pointing the investigation in the wrong direction.

This is one of the reasons (among others) of their aggressive stand against Russia - Russia, unlike EU, has real means to validate their statements, while Dutch-led investigation will work with any garbage they are fed. They will have no other choice simply, especially given demands of Dutch society for some results. Speaking of court - as we put it in software engineering - "garbage in, garbage out". The result here may look like something meaningful, but it can be only as good as input is.


Lot of words to say: no I do not accept any verdict from an independent court. And yet you, somehow, pleat for this case to be handed over to a Russian court, which we know are biased and dependent on the Kremlin. Seems to me you are ideology-driven, not fact-driven. So whatever suits your little narrative man, defend the indefensible with flawed reasoning.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:41 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
False statement as usual. UN courts have nothing to do with this. But I guess you couldn't find any good drawbacks of Dutch courts and the justice system. The JIT thing is helping to underpin how the justice system works. A very difficult case with many international dimensions and they succeded to bring it to court.


A great and well functioning justice system requires all of its links to be functioning like a Swiss clock, and be staffed with competent professionals. There has to be competent defense, independent judges, competent unbiased prosecution, competitive trial, and, of course, all these professionals have to abide to the highest standards of ethics. In this case, when you have Ukrainian criminals, ethics is the first thing that has been thrown into the garbage. And defense - there is no way they can compete with witnesses who are unknown and whose testaments are not verifiable, and evidence not known to be not forged. This is simply not fair to make someone take part in that.

This trial more and more resembles a shady poker club full of card sharpers who play with marked cards and carry aces in their sleeves. Obviously, a regular reasonable person is better off just not going to those places. Hence the position of Russia - "this is not our investigation" and of suspects - "let them do whatever they want over there".


A lot of words to say: I made a false statement for dragging the UN courts in here. We know are biased and dependent on the Kremlin, we know the Putin regime kills adversaries like clockwork, we know the Putin regime falsified data. All this and yet you, somehow, pleat for this case to be handed over to a Russian court. Seems to me you are ideology-driven, not fact-driven. So whatever suits your little narrative, man, defend the indefensible with flawed reasoning.

BTW one of the suspects doesn't say that hence he has a counselor.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:44 am

anrec80 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Then if they side with the JIT, it means the facts are proven to be accurate.


I don't know, let's see what Mahathir's successor will do, if anything.


So you believe the justice process should be made political? Seems to me you are ideology-driven, not fact-driven. So whatever suits your little narrative, man, defend the indefensible with flawed reasoning.

anrec80 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
So what's this about Russia being set up as the fall guy?


A lot - it's largely ideological reasons. In 2014 EU has brought to power a regime of crooks and war criminals. It has marketed it as a "democratic government", and the latter, just as Caesar's wife, must be beyond suspicion. If we start questioning Ukrainian side, we have to start acknowledging that too many things are not alright there, and cast shadows on many respected and reputable EU officials and institutions. And most importantly - ideology of EU's support of Ukraine. And the latter cannot be allowed to happen in EU. Hence we have all that monkeying with "anonymous witnesses" and stuff.

Actual truth, what went on - nobody cares about it at this point. Priorities are different now.


Flawed reasoning, as explained to you numerous of times. So yet again we can conclude: you are ideology-driven, not fact-driven. So whatever suits your little narrative, man, defend the indefensible with flawed reasoning.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:48 am

Busy months ahead: 30.000 pages of the criminal case needs to be explained away by Russian trolls. 30.000 seems to be a lot.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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