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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:41 am
by anrec80
Dutchy wrote:
This trail is about 4 people and their role in this atrocity. Not about anything else.


None of them was there to press that big red button. Let's wait and see if there will be anything beyond that.

Dutchy wrote:
That is simply not true. The JIT has lots of info from other sources, not in the last place the bodies and the airframe.


Even in bodies and frame debris there are interpretations. Even there prosecutors say "looks more like".

Dutchy wrote:
But let me ask you a very simple question. Would you rather have it that Ukraine did the investigation and trails all on their own? I mean that is the only other option since your Putin declined an international tribunal.

Isn't that what is happening anyway? JIT simply has no other source of information (metal and bodies aside) than SBU. Nobody from JIT has ever been to crash site.

Let's recall that crash happened right after armed coup. "Democratic forces" that came to power as the result were supposed to be absolutely sinless, and the first accusation towards Russia were voiced literally before the debris hit the ground. Apparently, there is an interest of Ukraine and all Western elites to lead the investigation that way - regardless of truth. The interests of Ukraine were to get out clean at least and have the investigation look the other way, and Ukraine succeeded in that. These people don't just chose to give something to someone. They took advantage of this "international effort" (totally dependent on them of course) to completely legitimize themselves as not guilty. Hence we see these questionable wiretaps of low quality, "open source investigations", anonymous witnesses, and such.

Dutchy wrote:
It was Ukraine territory so it is in the provocative to prosecute the guilty party. So they had the full right to do this on their own, but they choose to give it to the Netherlands. So what will it be? Ukraine alone, or do you have more faith in the current trail?


I could not have any faith in either of these scenarios, since they aren't much different. But if it was Ukraine only trial, Netherlands would not have had any obligations before Ukraine, and were more free to use as their resources not only Ukraine, but also establish contacts in Russia and DNR, visit crash sites, use help of their investigators. I'd say it's possible that in DNR or Russia they even have a version of what happened that day - during that time, DNR militia and Ukrainian military were still the same thing pretty much, and still maintained a lot of contacts.

Dutchy wrote:
He owes it to the 298 dead and the people left behind.

He doesn't agree with this apparently.

Dutchy wrote:
Russia has derailed this investigation everywhere they could, providing false information even altered information. Russia is not to be trusted and proven itself as such. For the world to see, even the military was involved..........


The only involvement of Russia into the investigation was answer to request for evidence about the missile, part of which you presented. Russian answer was detailed, while Ukrainian side of the documentation "was lost".

Dutchy wrote:
Yes, the investigators would like to interview him, but not on his terms. What he says in public is irrelevant, there is a reason why police investigations are not conducted in public. So he is welcome to explain himself in court.


Well, sometimes in life things don't happen on our terms entirely. I can see 2 ways to get to him (setting aside illegal or exotic ones such as kidnap him). One is to request Russian assistance, in which case he will be summoned into the meeting with Dutch investigators, or brought into the meeting by a court order if he does not come voluntarily. There are no terms in this picture. Second - get in contact with him and ask if he is willing to meet a Dutch investigator voluntarily - then yes, there will have to be a compromise of some sort.

Overall, I think it was a mistake by the investigation to not try to establish contacts with them - assuming JIT actually wants the truth. In other countries, such as China and USA, they have units who trace their suspects down abroad and get in touch with them, so this is being practiced. Then who knows - at some point you might have received some new leads or clues, or someone of them might even had agreed to a deal with the investigation.

Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:03 am
by Dutchy
anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
This trail is about 4 people and their role in this atrocity. Not about anything else.


None of them was there to press that big red button. Let's wait and see if there will be anything beyond that.


Let's see if there. is enough evidence for these. four. JIT is still investigating.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
That is simply not true. The JIT has lots of info from other sources, not in the last place the bodies and the airframe.


Even in bodies and frame debris there are interpretations. Even there prosecutors say "looks more like".


let's see if the prosecutors have a convincing case or not. It is up to the judges, not you or me.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
But let me ask you a very simple question. Would you rather have it that Ukraine did the investigation and trails all on their own? I mean that is the only other option since your Putin declined an international tribunal.

Isn't that what is happening anyway? JIT simply has no other source of information (metal and bodies aside) than SBU. Nobody from JIT has ever been to crash site.


still not true, that nobody from the JIT have or haven't been there is irrelevant. There have been enough investigators on the side.

The rest of your contribution is of the same level, don't feel like responding to it anymore. We will see what the judges will say in their verdict next year.

Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:54 pm
by Dutchy
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The trail of the family members against Russia has now been strengthened by the Netherlands joining the family members with the European Court of Human Rights.

I am not sure what the status is of the case The Netherlands versus Russia in the liable-case.


ECHR has no jurisdiction in Russia and for Russians.


Given your statement, you seem to have some lack of knowledge on what the ECoHR actually is and how it works.

So, let me first explain 3 terms to you then:
"The Council of Europe (CoE) is an international organization whose stated aim is to uphold human rights, democracy and the rule of law in Europe"
"The European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) is an international convention to protect human rights and political freedoms in Europe. Drafted in 1950 by the then newly formed CoE, the convention entered into force on 3 September 1953"
"The European Court of Human Rights (ECoHR), is a supranational or international court established by the European Convention on Human Rights. The court hears applications alleging that a contracting state has breached one or more of the human rights provisions concerning civil and political rights set out in the convention and its protocols."

Russia has been a member of the CoE and thus the ECoHR since 28 February 1996. So Russia can be sued before the ECoHR, as we see now. And since the ECHR is about protecting individuals against the state, indeed Russians (individuals) can't be sued before the ECoHR and they are indeed not.

Russians are not above international law, regardless of what you believe, those are the facts.

So if the Putin regime wants to be more a pariah state as it is, they are welcome to leave the Council of Europe. But since the Putin regime hasn't, we can only conclude that they are actually still a member and thus has jurisdiction over Russia.