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alfa164
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Busy months ahead: 30.000 pages of the criminal case needs to be explained away by Russian trolls.


They work on it every day... even here. Especially here.

;)
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anrec80
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Russian data......... we know that Russia provided the JIT with a false radar readout and somehow you find Russian data of the highest standard. Seems to me you are ideology-driven, not fact-driven. Anyhow, I am sure any competent Lawyer will bring this up if it has any merit of truth in it. Up to the judges to decide if they are presented with two different stories.


What’s the deal with radar - JIT said “the radar might have not noticed the missile”. I don’t know if it can be the case or not, I am not an expert. Speaking of lawyers and judges - in order for the second version to exist there must be someone to care enough about it. And Russia (or even the current suspects) don’t have any interest in this case really - they have no reason to. It’s not their plane, there weren’t any of their citizens, the plane didn’t crash on their territory. It’s none of their problem or their business. The world doesn’t revolve around this trial.

Dutchy wrote:
Lot of words to say: no I do not accept any verdict from an independent court. And yet you, somehow, pleat for this case to be handed over to a Russian court, which we know are biased and dependent on the Kremlin. Seems to me you are ideology-driven, not fact-driven. So whatever suits your little narrative man, defend the indefensible with flawed reasoning.


Let’s understand this one better. First, a notion of truly independent court is like absolute zero temperature or absolute vacuum. Something that exists in theory but unachievable in practice. This is a high profile political case with a lot of very foundations of EU politics being at stake. Let’s not be naive - nobody will leave things of that importance to some overly independent judge. A judge is an official who wants to support his family, and eventually retire with full benefits. In any jurisdiction, there is always politics in judicial bodies (how a judge is being appointed, fired, jailed, etc. ). And the Western system has quite a few tried-and true ways to deal with Independent people - say, some woman comes over with30 year old harassment claims (a-la Weinstein) , or even a hotel housekeeper (Dominique Strauss Kahn). I am just being realistic here.

Speaking of Russian court - yes, this is the only real way to imprison a Russian citizen. There is no other. And then there is Russian Attorney General Office, which can be requested for help to verify some statements. But it’s Dutch trial and up to you if you want to use this resource.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:21 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Busy months ahead: 30.000 pages of the criminal case needs to be explained away by Russian trolls.


They work on it every day... even here. Especially here.

;)


As I said before - Russia has no interest in this trial, it simply doesn’t care. Hence even if the mythical “trolls” do exist, 30K pages of the case will be the last thing they care about.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:25 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So you believe the justice process should be made political?


Should not be, but it at times becomes. This MH-17 case certainly became, with Ukraine’s help, for the reasons mentioned above. Speaking of Malaysia - the former PM apparently made his position based on reports of Malaysian representatives in JIT, and Malaysia’s law enforcement agencies. Not by himself. Hence I do not see why the new PM would change anything, but he may have other opinions on the reports provided by his agencies.
 
petertenthije
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:27 pm

anrec80 wrote:
As I said before - Russia has no interest in this trial, it simply doesn’t care. Hence even if the mythical “trolls” do exist, 30K pages of the case will be the last thing they care about.
And yet, half the posts in this thread and other MH17 related threads are by Russians. You manage to hide your not-caring really well. :)
Attamottamotta!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:42 am

petertenthije wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
As I said before - Russia has no interest in this trial, it simply doesn’t care. Hence even if the mythical “trolls” do exist, 30K pages of the case will be the last thing they care about.
And yet, half the posts in this thread and other MH17 related threads are by Russians. You manage to hide your not-caring really well. :)


As does the Russian regime with all their efforts to derail the investigation, as does the suspect by attaining a Dutch lawyer. Brilliant smokescreen, hiding your not caring in this way.
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:43 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So you believe the justice process should be made political?


Should not be, but it at times becomes. This MH-17 case certainly became, with Ukraine’s help, for the reasons mentioned above. Speaking of Malaysia - the former PM apparently made his position based on reports of Malaysian representatives in JIT, and Malaysia’s law enforcement agencies. Not by himself. Hence I do not see why the new PM would change anything, but he may have other opinions on the reports provided by his agencies.


As mentioned before, the Malaysian investigators fully support the JIT. So this is a distortion of the truth.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:44 am

And here is one more reason for Russia to not recognize this farce:
https://us4.campaign-archive.com/?u=055 ... 34ff68c250

Maartje and Anne put forward the question about breach of Russian sovereignty through the approach of witnesses who most probably reside in the RF, without informing the RF authorities


And you want someone to cooperate with you after this?

Not a problem for Belgium, since this is just an act of investigation

European solidarity in all its beauty!

SBU isn’t working on the case. They just don’t have manpower.

What I told you earlier - MH17 isn’t a priority for Ukraine.

Notice there is no Malaysia mention anywhere.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:44 am

anrec80 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Busy months ahead: 30.000 pages of the criminal case needs to be explained away by Russian trolls.


They work on it every day... even here. Especially here.

;)


As I said before - Russia has no interest in this trial, it simply doesn’t care. Hence even if the mythical “trolls” do exist, 30K pages of the case will be the last thing they care about.


I fully agree with you that the trolls don't care about the 30.000 pages, they don't need facts and truth to do their "job", you know this better than anyone on this forum.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:49 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A lot of words to say: I made a false statement for dragging the UN courts in here. We know are biased and dependent on the Kremlin, we know the Putin regime kills adversaries like clockwork, we know the Putin regime falsified data. All this and yet you, somehow, pleat for this case to be handed over to a Russian court.


After Yugoslavia tribunal farce, in Russia there exists a term “The Hague Justice” - which stands for a totally political farce with one sided investigation and a place where an innocent person can be held for decades until their death. This is also the case here. So yes, letting questionable establishments into your country does cast shadows on your reputation, and others do base their decision on those shadows as well. And the argument “It’s the UN, it’s not Dutch” doesn’t cut it.


It is off-topic and rediciouslous. As mentioned before, the Dutch justice system is ranked at the top of the world. Russia's system isn't. So the facts aren't with you. Let's not forget that Russia also supported Milosovich and his ways, so we need to put your remarks regarding this in this light. You are the only one calling it a political farce, hence I said before, you are ideology-driven, not facts-driven.
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:54 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Russian data......... we know that Russia provided the JIT with a false radar readout and somehow you find Russian data of the highest standard. Seems to me you are ideology-driven, not fact-driven. Anyhow, I am sure any competent Lawyer will bring this up if it has any merit of truth in it. Up to the judges to decide if they are presented with two different stories.


What’s the deal with radar - JIT said “the radar might have not noticed the missile”. I don’t know if it can be the case or not, I am not an expert. Speaking of lawyers and judges - in order for the second version to exist there must be someone to care enough about it. And Russia (or even the current suspects) don’t have any interest in this case really - they have no reason to. It’s not their plane, there weren’t any of their citizens, the plane didn’t crash on their territory. It’s none of their problem or their business. The world doesn’t revolve around this trial.

Dutchy wrote:
Lot of words to say: no I do not accept any verdict from an independent court. And yet you, somehow, pleat for this case to be handed over to a Russian court, which we know are biased and dependent on the Kremlin. Seems to me you are ideology-driven, not fact-driven. So whatever suits your little narrative man, defend the indefensible with flawed reasoning.


Let’s understand this one better. First, a notion of truly independent court is like absolute zero temperature or absolute vacuum. Something that exists in theory but unachievable in practice. This is a high profile political case with a lot of very foundations of EU politics being at stake. Let’s not be naive - nobody will leave things of that importance to some overly independent judge. A judge is an official who wants to support his family, and eventually retire with full benefits. In any jurisdiction, there is always politics in judicial bodies (how a judge is being appointed, fired, jailed, etc. ). And the Western system has quite a few tried-and true ways to deal with Independent people - say, some woman comes over with30 year old harassment claims (a-la Weinstein) , or even a hotel housekeeper (Dominique Strauss Kahn). I am just being realistic here.

Speaking of Russian court - yes, this is the only real way to imprison a Russian citizen. There is no other. And then there is Russian Attorney General Office, which can be requested for help to verify some statements. But it’s Dutch trial and up to you if you want to use this resource.


Soviet propaganda technique. Perhaps we should make a bingo card with all the techniques listed and point them out when you use them, first to have bingo get a price. What do you think?

But let me ask another question, you mention the Russian justice system a lot and think the trial would be held there is a good thing. Would you accept any ruling of this court? An acquittal or quietly verdict?
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:08 am

anrec80 wrote:
And here is one more reason for Russia to not recognize this farce:
https://us4.campaign-archive.com/?u=055 ... 34ff68c250

Maartje and Anne put forward the question about breach of Russian sovereignty through the approach of witnesses who most probably reside in the RF, without informing the RF authorities


And you want someone to cooperate with you after this?

Not a problem for Belgium, since this is just an act of investigation

European solidarity in all its beauty!

SBU isn’t working on the case. They just don’t have manpower.

What I told you earlier - MH17 isn’t a priority for Ukraine.

Notice there is no Malaysia mention anywhere.


Russian to cooperate? They have been frustrating the MH17 investigation from the beginning. And now some Maartje and Anne question the legality of this? Who are they even? Are they qualified to render an opinion about this? It is quite sad if you resort to this kind of "sources". Yana Yerlashova and Max van der Werff don't seem to be driven by facts but rather ideology. Are they paid by Russia for doing this? Can't imagine they get enough from the public to keep going. 2*100.000*6 = 1,2million Euro's for all these years. I don't take these two seriously, they haven't brought forward a single interesting fact. Max is someone who believes passionately in conspiracies and just found a new target in the MH17.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:45 am

Dutchy wrote:
But let me ask another question, you mention the Russian justice system a lot and think the trial would be held there is a good thing. Would you accept any ruling of this court? An acquittal or quietly verdict?


Why not? What will happen in that case is the following. First, JIT investigators will be met by their Russian colleagues, who will study all the evidence collected and work done so far, and complement it to meet Russian procedural and legal requirements. They will also fill in the blanks they can see or provide additional help required to make the case stronger, so that it has better chance in Russian court. Then, together with JIT teammates, they will take the case to Russian court, arrange for all suspects and witnesses to be present there and able to testify. And the court can make its decision.

This will be pretty much Russian internal court trial - legitimacy of which Russian state obviously recognizes. So why would someone else have a problem with it?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:08 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
But let me ask another question, you mention the Russian justice system a lot and think the trial would be held there is a good thing. Would you accept any ruling of this court? An acquittal or quietly verdict?


Why not? What will happen in that case is the following. First, JIT investigators will be met by their Russian colleagues, who will study all the evidence collected and work done so far, and complement it to meet Russian procedural and legal requirements. They will also fill in the blanks they can see or provide additional help required to make the case stronger, so that it has better chance in Russian court. Then, together with JIT teammates, they will take the case to Russian court, arrange for all suspects and witnesses to be present there and able to testify. And the court can make its decision.

This will be pretty much Russian internal court trial - legitimacy of which Russian state obviously recognizes. So why would someone else have a problem with it?


Wow, I didn't think you would actually answer that question and certainly not in that manner.

So to sum it up, you believe the verdict of a Russian court without hesitation and don't accept one from a Dutch court, whatever the circumstances.

So you believe a Putin court "decision" instead of an independent one. It is quite telling that you make this statement.

Anyhow, it doesn't matter, no one is stupid enough to trust the Russian regime in this matter. They have done too much of misdirection and lied too much for anyone to take them seriously.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:54 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So you believe the justice process should be made political?


Should not be, but it at times becomes. This MH-17 case certainly became, with Ukraine’s help, for the reasons mentioned above. Speaking of Malaysia - the former PM apparently made his position based on reports of Malaysian representatives in JIT, and Malaysia’s law enforcement agencies. Not by himself. Hence I do not see why the new PM would change anything, but he may have other opinions on the reports provided by his agencies.


The former PM is irrelevant. I doubt he actually made his statement based on the reports of Malaysian representatives in the JIT. His anti-Western slant & Russian proclivity is well known.

News flash, it looks like Hishamuddin is back as Foreign Minister. This would undoubtedly shift Malaysia's view of this trial back in line with the JIT's results, because we now have someone who was actually involved in the efforts back in 2014.

Even more so, Hishamuddin as well as his cousin the former PM Najib had a relative on board the plane...
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alfa164
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:08 am

anrec80 wrote:
Speaking of Russian court - yes, this is the only real way to imprison a Russian citizen. There is no other. And then there is Russian Attorney General Office, which can be requested for help to verify some statements.



...because Russia is an outlier within the international community. It has no respect for international law - and its own legal system is based on corruption and favoritism.

But then, Russia doesn't rely on other countries' courts to settle its legal concerns, either; Putin seems to believe Novaihok is much more reliable, without the need for those messy legal necessities like evidence, trial, judgement, etc...

:roll:
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tommy1808
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:17 pm

alfa164 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
First off, who was it that fired at the protestors in Kiev? There's a lot of evidence pointing to the fact of a provocation where both protestors and police were shot from the same weapons.



"... a lot of evidence"? Show it to us. Prove it. Otherwise... there is not a "lot of evidence"..


quite surprising that the Russian DOD hasn´t faked anything yet.... after all they where not above presenting fake radar tracks...

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:32 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Wow, I didn't think you would actually answer that question and certainly not in that manner.


Well, in this case it will be for the most part Russian domestic legal process, involving Russian investigation, Russian defendants, Russian court and Russian legislature. And apparently, this will be then recognized as the legitimate by Russian state, and why would anyone else question it? And if the joint (by Russian and Dutch investigators) effort reveals involvement of Russian officials, then they have real chance to show up in court. And this was exactly the essence of Russian proposition earlier on this matter.

Dutchy wrote:
So to sum it up, you believe the verdict of a Russian court without hesitation and don't accept one from a Dutch court, whatever the circumstances.

So you believe a Putin court "decision" instead of an independent one. It is quite telling that you make this statement.



It’s not about legislature or court at this point. The main issue here is that there is that a party with HUUUUUGE versed interest is not only not under investigation, but is investigating. And the rest of the investigation is 100% dependent upon this party. It doesn’t matter what jurisdiction, legislature, courts - be it Netherlands, Russia, Switzerland, Mozambique or something else. If a corrupt or an interested investigator wants to turn the investigation his way and is OK with using any forged evidence, fake witnesses - they will succeed in it regardless.
Last edited by anrec80 on Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:39 pm

alfa164 wrote:
...because Russia is an outlier within the international community. It has no respect for international law - and its own legal system is based on corruption and favoritism.



There is no country that would allow any courts outside of it to resolve matters related to its legal concerns. Each jurisdiction (each state in the US even) has its own court system for that. Russia isn’t an exception here. In every country, only that country’s court can decide if that country’s citizens spends time in jail or not, and how much. Nobody else’s court.

alfa164 wrote:
But then, Russia doesn't rely on other countries' courts to settle its legal concerns, either; Putin seems to believe Novaihok is much more reliable, without the need for those messy legal necessities like evidence, trial, judgement, etc...

:roll:


And speaking of Novichok - it’s been 2 years and no news since. Where is something at least? I am also curious what’s the proof of “Russian involvement”.
Last edited by anrec80 on Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:57 pm

And - here is an update on quality of witnesses.

https://www.urdupoint.com/en/world/pros ... 60612.html

"The case has evidence from witness M58 ... They say that on July 17, 2014, during the crash of flight MH17, they were on a crossroad south to Snizhne [a city in the breakaway Donetsk People's Republic] near the Buk missile system during its launch ... The witness repeatedly stated that, among other things, they recognized that the soldiers at the launch site spoke with a Russian accent and that Russian soldiers were on this Buk," the prosecutor said during the ongoing trial at in The Hague.


Russian accent. In Ukraine. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Will this embarrassment ever stop? You guys could have at least shied away from using such testimonies. It really is better to name Terminator and Superman as suspects. Less absurd.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:04 pm

anrec80 wrote:
And - here is an update on quality of witnesses.

https://www.urdupoint.com/en/world/pros ... 60612.html

"The case has evidence from witness M58 ... They say that on July 17, 2014, during the crash of flight MH17, they were on a crossroad south to Snizhne [a city in the breakaway Donetsk People's Republic] near the Buk missile system during its launch ... The witness repeatedly stated that, among other things, they recognized that the soldiers at the launch site spoke with a Russian accent and that Russian soldiers were on this Buk," the prosecutor said during the ongoing trial at in The Hague.


Russian accent. In Ukraine. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Will this embarrassment ever stop? You guys could have at least shied away from using such testimonies. It really is better to name Terminator and Superman as suspects. Less absurd.


Terminator and Superman weren't at the launch site, according to this witness, Russian soldiers were there, apparently. Why do you find it embarrassing to call upon witnesses who were there? Or do you mean it is embarrassing for your Putin regime that these witnesses exist and that this contradicts the Russian version of the "truth"?
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:13 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Wow, I didn't think you would actually answer that question and certainly not in that manner.


Well, in this case it will be for the most part Russian domestic legal process, involving Russian investigation, Russian defendants, Russian court and Russian legislature. And apparently, this will be then recognized as the legitimate by Russian state, and why would anyone else question it? And if the joint (by Russian and Dutch investigators) effort reveals involvement of Russian officials, then they have real chance to show up in court. And this was exactly the essence of Russian proposition earlier on this matter.


Why would anyone question it? Because in a dictatorship (Putin just added the possibility that he will be in power till 2036), the justice system isn't independent, and that is certainly not the case in Russia. And since everything points to Russian regular soldiers being present, you have the judge, prosecutor and defense working towards the same goal: not guilty. Don't mind pointing out how corrupt the Russian justice system is, once again. The real question is, why do you trust the Russian system above the Dutch one.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So to sum it up, you believe the verdict of a Russian court without hesitation and don't accept one from a Dutch court, whatever the circumstances.

So you believe a Putin court "decision" instead of an independent one. It is quite telling that you make this statement.



It’s not about legislature or court at this point. The main issue here is that there is that a party with HUUUUUGE versed interest is not only not under investigation, but is investigating. And the rest of the investigation is 100% dependent upon this party. It doesn’t matter what jurisdiction, legislature, courts - be it Netherlands, Russia, Switzerland, Mozambique or something else. If a corrupt or an interested investigator wants to turn the investigation his way and is OK with using any forged evidence, fake witnesses - they will succeed in it regardless.


You want the Russian state to hold the court case and you come up with this line of defence, it is absurd. So you believe a Putin court "decision" instead of an independent one. It is quite telling that you make this statement.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
argentinevol98
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:08 am

Jumping in now and adding two quick comments: 1. As someone with a degree in international relations and working in a law related job, the idea that there is legitimacy in conflating International Courts and Dutch national courts because the happen to be located within the same territory is completely and totally absurd. Are people aware that the judges on international courts come from all over the world and are not all Dutch? Because if not they need to at the very least google this stuff first. 2. The idea that a Russian "court" (and yes I put the word "court" in parentheses here on purpose) is in any way more reliable than Dutch court is ridiculous in the extreme. Look, no justice system anywhere on Earth is perfect but the Dutch justice system is one of the absolute best out there. In contrast, the Russian system, like that of most dictatorships, is one of the very worst. This is based on basically every metric you can imagine.

I for one am very glad the Dutch are taking this crime seriously and are provided a venue for a proper trial into the events that took place. They should be commended, not criticized. I am not Dutch, but I am a human being, and as a human being I am a supporter of justice.
"He sospechado alguna vez que la única cosa sin misterio es la felicidad, porque se justifica por sí sola"-Jorge Luis Borges
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:08 am

Dutchy wrote:
Terminator and Superman weren't at the launch site,


So what? None of the suspects were in close proximity to the launch site either.

Dutchy wrote:
according to this witness, Russian soldiers were there, apparently.


And how did our witness decide that these were “Russian soldiers”? Must have been by the accent.

Dutchy wrote:
Why do you find it embarrassing to call upon witnesses who were there? Or do you mean it is embarrassing for your Putin regime that these witnesses exist and that this contradicts the Russian version of the "truth"?


What’s embarrassing is that JIT accepted this kind of “witness” and these testaments. Everyone in Ukraine knows that there is no such a thing in Ukraine as Russian accent. As well as there is no such a thing in Russia as Ukrainian accent (with a few exceptions such as Western Ukraine). Exceptions aside, an average individual can’t distinguish a Ukrainian resident from a Russian resident by accent alone. And there is generally no way to distinguish a resident of Novosibirsk from a resident of Moscow, and whose from residents of Donetsk or Kharkiv or Kiev. And that’s omitting generally high mobility between Russia and Ukraine (during Soviet times and now). There may be people who did their doctorate degrees in Russian linguistics and who are working in government establishments responsible for Russian language standards - those people may be able to distinguish regional accents. But I can’t even claim these people exist.

It just can’t be more obvious that the target audience for these “testaments” is Dutch prosecutor, Dutch court and Dutch public like yourself. And you guys are swallowing this stuff. And a Dutch judge (and most Dutch people), apparently, aren’t Russian linguistics experts, but does know the term “Russian accent”. The term “Russian accent” as it’s viewed on the West does include Ukraine and most other ex-USSR nations, but this will remain out of scope for Western audience.

These arguments, obviously, will have no chance with a Russian investigator or a Russian judge. Even in Ukraine such thing will have zero chance.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17 trail - discussion tread

Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:47 am

Dutchy wrote:
Why would anyone question it? Because in a dictatorship (Putin just added the possibility that he will be in power till 2036), the justice system isn't independent, and that is certainly not the case in Russia. And since everything points to Russian regular soldiers being present, you have the judge, prosecutor and defense working towards the same goal: not guilty. The real question is, why do you trust the Russian system above the Dutch one.


The chain is only as strong as its weakest link. At the beginning of this whole chain, you have Ukraine who is an interested party and should be also under the same investigation. But not only it’s on JIT, it is the source of all information, evidence, witnesses and testaments. Everything in this process depends upon Ukrainian SBU. Knowing that independent Dutch system is predictable, and how it works, it’s easy to tweak evidence and witnesses to point it in any direction. Hence it’s not Dutch system that I do not trust, it’s the whole chain and the interested party in it. It can be trusted only as much as Ukrainian regime can be (which is not at all).

Dutchy wrote:
You want the Russian state to hold the court case and you come up with this line of defence, it is absurd. So you believe a Putin court "decision" instead of an independent one. It is quite telling that you make this statement.


I know you may not view Russian legislature as perfect. But as I mentioned above, the investigation is far from independent.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:03 am

argentinevol98 wrote:
The idea that a Russian "court" (and yes I put the word "court" in parentheses here on purpose) is in any way more reliable than Dutch court is ridiculous in the extreme. Look, no justice system anywhere on Earth is perfect but the Dutch justice system is one of the absolute best out there. In contrast, the Russian system, like that of most dictatorships, is one of the very worst. This is based on basically every metric you can imagine.


Well, then you have to realize that Dutch court verdict in itself isn’t much of value for Russia. The life of suspects will not change regardless of what verdict of Dutch court will be. The only way a Russian citizen in Russian jurisdiction can be sent to jail is by the verdict of a Russian court. So you have to set your priorities - do you want a real chance of suspects being jailed or you want a decision of a more independent court?

argentinevol98 wrote:
I for one am very glad the Dutch are taking this crime seriously and are provided a venue for a proper trial into the events that took place. They should be commended, not criticized. I am not Dutch, but I am a human being, and as a human being I am a supporter of justice.


I don’t know if Dutch take it seriously. I can’t get rid of impression they just want to somehow close this case and move on. Nobody in JIT or even in court questions Ukraine’s part of the tragic chain of events.
 
argentinevol98
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:53 am

Well, then you have to realize that Dutch court verdict in itself isn’t much of value for Russia. The life of suspects will not change regardless of what verdict of Dutch court will be. The only way a Russian citizen in Russian jurisdiction can be sent to jail is by the verdict of a Russian court. So you have to set your priorities - do you want a real chance of suspects being jailed or you want a decision of a more independent court?


What are the chances that the suspects go to jail in Russia? The real ones at least? Let's face it, to jail the real suspects you have to admit that Russian rebels shot down a 777-200ER. That's an awful look for a regime that supports the rebels. Additionally, it would beg the question as to how they shot the plane down. The fact that they used a Russian military Buk to do so is, again, not in the interests of the Russian regime. Putin would not tolerate that and has the power to decide the verdict himself. So no, I have no faith that the suspects will be jailed in Russia at all. They'd likely blame the Ukrainians and end up jailing no one at all, while also not answering any relevant questions. So yes, I'll take the independent court ten times out ten.
"He sospechado alguna vez que la única cosa sin misterio es la felicidad, porque se justifica por sí sola"-Jorge Luis Borges
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:21 am

argentinevol98 wrote:
What are the chances that the suspects go to jail in Russia? The real ones at least? Let's face it, to jail the real suspects you have to admit that Russian rebels shot down a 777-200ER. That's an awful look for a regime that supports the rebels.


It’s not all black and white. Even if we assume totally fairy tale theory that a Russian Buk somehow ended up in Ukraine (despite that no one has seen it in Russia) - an investigative effort with Russia will help you to actually question the suspects, witnesses. You can even be able to see whether or not there was a state involvement in this case, or it was just someone has shown his own initiative.

Russia is the only party who actually has capability to take the investigators to the actual crash site and verify witnesses testaments in the field, in the area of the actual crash site. To date, not even a single JIT investigator has ever been to the crash area, and they didn’t even make any meaningful attempt to to get access to and question their suspects.

argentinevol98 wrote:
Additionally, it would beg the question as to how they shot the plane down. The fact that they used a Russian military Buk to do so is, again, not in the interests of the Russian regime. Putin would not tolerate that and has the power to decide the verdict himself. So no, I have no faith that the suspects will be jailed in Russia at all.


Putin in fact offered you guys a joint effort with trial in Russia.

argentinevol98 wrote:
They'd likely blame the Ukrainians and end up jailing no one at all, while also not answering any relevant questions. So yes, I'll take the independent court ten times out ten.


So far it all points to Ukraine. When JIT has shown the missile engine and asked Russians about it, they provided manufacturer records showing that the missile was made in 1986 and shipped to Western Ukraine, and also was received there. Nobody has ever mentioned request to Ukraine for the records on that missile - what Ukraine has on it. Ukraine in this case is like Caesar’s wife - beyond suspicion. Even airspace non-closure is out of scope.

Speaking of independence if court - if this court is working with fake witnesses and forged data, then the decision will be meaningless really.
 
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:22 am

It is amazing, after all the disinformation, distractions, and outright lies the Russian government has spewed into the issue, and after all their efforts have been continually disproven, we still have posters who blithely say things like, "...it all points to Ukraine." Of course, the "reason" it all "points to Ukraine" changes with the undermining of each excuse and debunking of the alleged "evidence" the Russians present, but, nevertheless, Russian lies are like the Energizer Bunny: they just keep going and going.....

Whether such claims are really just aimed at Russian readers, hoping to solidify their perception that the State media has espoused all along, or whether Russian genuinely thinks the rest of the world is so ignorant and gullible that it would believe this load.... that is difficult to fathom. Maybe it is both. Maybe it is neither. Maybe it is just to "stir the pot" and hope to create questions in the minds of less-informed peoples... after all, that has been a Russian political tactic all along.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S074756321930202X

Some years - or maybe decades - from now; more research will be done in these purposes; more evidence will be found; and more conclusions will be reached. In the meantime, it is simply insulting to the real investigators; to the conscientious readers and followers of the reports and trial, and - most of all - to the victims and their families. To paraphrase Joseph Welch in the Army-McCarthy trial:

"Russia.... have you no dignity at all left? Have you no shame?"
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:56 am

anrec80 wrote:
And how did our witness decide that these were “Russian soldiers”? Must have been by the accent.


More likely, from their uniforms. Russian accents and Russian soldiers, both.

anrec80 wrote:
What’s embarrassing is that JIT accepted this kind of “witness” and these testaments. Everyone in Ukraine knows that there is no such a thing in Ukraine as Russian accent. As well as there is no such a thing in Russia as Ukrainian accent (with a few exceptions such as Western Ukraine). Exceptions aside, an average individual can’t distinguish a Ukrainian resident from a Russian resident by accent alone. And there is generally no way to distinguish a resident of Novosibirsk from a resident of Moscow, and whose from residents of Donetsk or Kharkiv or Kiev. And that’s omitting generally high mobility between Russia and Ukraine (during Soviet times and now). There may be people who did their doctorate degrees in Russian linguistics and who are working in government establishments responsible for Russian language standards - those people may be able to distinguish regional accents. But I can’t even claim these people exist.

It just can’t be more obvious that the target audience for these “testaments” is Dutch prosecutor, Dutch court and Dutch public like yourself. And you guys are swallowing this stuff. And a Dutch judge (and most Dutch people), apparently, aren’t Russian linguistics experts, but does know the term “Russian accent”. The term “Russian accent” as it’s viewed on the West does include Ukraine and most other ex-USSR nations, but this will remain out of scope for Western audience.

These arguments, obviously, will have no chance with a Russian investigator or a Russian judge. Even in Ukraine such thing will have zero chance.


No argument has a chance with a Russian investigator. Russia sends GROe to frustrate the JIT as observers. That's telling enough.
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:07 am

alfa164 wrote:
It is amazing, after all the disinformation, distractions, and outright lies the Russian government has spewed into the issue, and after all their efforts have been continually disproven, we still have posters who blithely say things like, "...it all points to Ukraine." Of course, the "reason" it all "points to Ukraine" changes with the undermining of each excuse and debunking of the alleged "evidence" the Russians present, but, nevertheless, Russian lies are like the Energizer Bunny: they just keep going and going.....

Whether such claims are really just aimed at Russian readers, hoping to solidify their perception that the State media has espoused all along, or whether Russian genuinely thinks the rest of the world is so ignorant and gullible that it would believe this load.... that is difficult to fathom. Maybe it is both. Maybe it is neither. Maybe it is just to "stir the pot" and hope to create questions in the minds of less-informed peoples... after all, that has been a Russian political tactic all along.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S074756321930202X

Some years - or maybe decades - from now; more research will be done in these purposes; more evidence will be found; and more conclusions will be reached. In the meantime, it is simply insulting to the real investigators; to the conscientious readers and followers of the reports and trial, and - most of all - to the victims and their families.


It is amazing how the Russian regime tries to influence everyone around. This disinformation campaign is amazing and yet disturbing.

alfa164 wrote:
To paraphrase Joseph Welch in the Army-McCarthy trial:

"Russia.... have you no dignity at all left? Have you no shame?"


:checkmark:
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:30 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Whether such claims are really just aimed at Russian readers, hoping to solidify their perception that the State media has espoused all along, or whether Russian genuinely thinks the rest of the world is so ignorant and gullible that it would believe this load.... that is difficult to fathom. Maybe it is both. Maybe it is neither. Maybe it is just to "stir the pot" and hope to create questions in the minds of less-informed peoples... after all, that has been a Russian political tactic all along.


An average Russian reader simply doesn’t care about this MH-17 thing. Some just are watching it as a comedy show, and it really went down to not much more than this.

alfa164 wrote:
"Russia.... have you no dignity at all left? Have you no shame?"[/b][/i]


This question goes back to Western leadership - let’s just recall the chain of events. First, Western leaders without any shame assisted in an armed coup, brought to power a bunch of crooks and war criminals, and looked the other way when they started a civil war in their own country. Then, first accusations towards today’s suspects were voiced even before victims’ bodies and plane debris hit the ground (literally) - again, nobody felt ashamed at all. Then, we have seen a “black hole theory” marketed as an “open source investigation”. Then, we have seen an “investigation”, which appeared to be totally happy to be manipulated by Kiev crooks, who has never been to the crash site, and perhaps the first investigation in history which doesn’t even want its suspects. And now we have absentee trial with anonymous witnesses talking about “Russian accents” (well yeah, I would go anonymous in that case as well since after such testaments I will be regarded as a clinical idiot at home). And to top it all up, the supporters of this line are talking anecdotes not even realizing it.

I look at this, and I don’t even see how and where you would apply the word “shame” here. All that’s left to do is say “let them investigate, judge, try whatever they want over there. I am not getting into it”.
 
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:42 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Some years - or maybe decades - from now; more research will be done in these purposes; more evidence will be found; and more conclusions will be reached. In the meantime, it is simply insulting to the real investigators; to the conscientious readers and followers of the reports and trial, and - most of all - to the victims and their families. To paraphrase Joseph Welch in the Army-McCarthy trial: [i][b]


This should have been primary concerns when you let Ukrainian crooks lead the investigation, and how it will turn out 5.5 years ago. At this point, had I been a Dutch, I would be insulted that a Dutch investigators accept such witnesses and such testaments, Dutch court also wastes time looking at this nonsense. I would have probably demanded that these witnesses and “investigators” were charged with disrespect to court. And had I been a judge of the court, when seeing such “testaments” I would have kicked this prosecution with such “witnesses” out of the door, and the case straight into the garbage bin.
 
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:55 pm

anrec80 wrote:
An average Russian reader simply doesn’t care about this MH-17 thing. Some just are watching it as a comedy show, and it really went down to not much more than this.


In fact, 298 innocent people died because of Russian malfeasance and aggression; that the Russians treat this tragedy as "a comedy show" just shows the extent of depravity among the Russian political leadership, the State-controlled media, and the influence and attitude they use to indoctrinate the Russian people.

As I asked previously "Russia... have you no decency left? Have you no shame?"
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:04 pm

anrec80 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Some years - or maybe decades - from now; more research will be done in these purposes; more evidence will be found; and more conclusions will be reached. In the meantime, it is simply insulting to the real investigators; to the conscientious readers and followers of the reports and trial, and - most of all - to the victims and their families. To paraphrase Joseph Welch in the Army-McCarthy trial: [i][b]


This should have been primary concerns when you let Ukrainian crooks lead the investigation, and how it will turn out 5.5 years ago. At this point, had I been a Dutch, I would be insulted that a Dutch investigators accept such witnesses and such testaments, Dutch court also wastes time looking at this nonsense. I would have probably demanded that these witnesses and “investigators” were charged with disrespect to court. And had I been a judge of the court, when seeing such “testaments” I would have kicked this prosecution with such “witnesses” out of the door, and the case straight into the garbage bin.


I am Dutch and I am happy how my tax Euro's are being spent on this trial. The judge will straighten this out. Luckily you are not a judge because you have shown to be biased.
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:45 am

Dutchy wrote:
I am Dutch and I am happy how my tax Euro's are being spent on this trial. The judge will straighten this out. Luckily you are not a judge because you have shown to be biased.


What you do with your tax Euros it’s up to you. If you are happy, then I am happy. But just don’t expect anyone else to participate in it. That said - I really don’t know where and how the judge will acquire expertise to straighten out things like “Russian accent”.
 
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:34 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I am Dutch and I am happy how my tax Euro's are being spent on this trial. The judge will straighten this out. Luckily you are not a judge because you have shown to be biased.


What you do with your tax Euros it’s up to you. If you are happy, then I am happy. But just don’t expect anyone else to participate in it. That said - I really don’t know where and how the judge will acquire expertise to straighten out things like “Russian accent”.


Ask experts, as with everything else and one witness isn't a witness or evidence, so there has to be more, 29.990 pages more ;)

And one of the four is participating in this trial, so there you go..........
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:54 pm

A potential new suspect is identified by Bellingcat: Colonel General Burlaka of the Russian security service FSB.

Research collective Bellingcat has identified a Russian security service general FSB as a potential key figure in the downing of flight MH17 over Eastern Ukraine in July 2014. It is Andrei Ivanovich Burlaka, who, according to Bellingcat, played a crucial role in the movement of Russia's weapons. to Ukraine and must therefore also have given the green light to transfer the Buk missile installation with which the Malaysia Airlines plane was shot from the air.

Colonel General Burlaka held a top position within the Russian security service FSB. In telephone conversations from the period before the shooting of MH17, he is referred to as Vladimir Ivanovich. His true identity is Andrei Ivanovich Burlaka, states the Bellingcat research team. According to the researchers, Burlaka is the highest-ranking Russian who could play a role in the criminal investigation into the downing of the plane.

Bellingcat's investigation followed the publication of a series of recordings of the telephone conversations by the Netherlands-led international research team, the Joint Investigation Team (JIT). These are recordings that show how pro-Russian insurgents in Eastern Ukraine consult by telephone with Russian officials.


Link in Dutch

Of course, Bellingcat aren't prosecutors so we will see if this will lead to anything or if it will be dismissed by the JIT. With the JIT they need to be able to proof it without a reasonable doubt that he was involved, before presenting the proof to the judges in a potential trial.
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Fri May 15, 2020 1:11 pm

"Donetsk arrests MH17 suspect to protect him"

The authorities of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic (DNR) in eastern Ukraine arrested Leonid Chartshenko in March. He is one of the four suspects accused by the Dutch Public Prosecution Service in the MH17 case.

According to sources from the Russian department of the BBC, Chartsjenko was arrested on March 11 - two days after the official start of the trial in the Netherlands. That is said to have happened due to involvement in an illegal search in Donetsk in 2014 and illegal possession of weapons.

But according to an anonymous former colleague of Chartsjenko (the only Ukrainian among the four suspects, nicknamed "the mole"), that is a curious story: no complaint has been lodged against the search. And the DNR's Ministry of State Security gave Chartshenko himself a gun last year, precisely because of his suspicion in the MH17 case.

According to the former colleague, the DNR authorities wanted to prevent the kidnapping of Ukrainian commandos from kidnapping Khartshenko, who is the only suspect still living in the DNR. Imprisonment now isolates him, the BBC source said. A similar scenario unfolded last summer, when the Ukrainian army kidnapped (now officially suspect) witness Vladimir Tsemach deep in the DNR and transferred it to Kiev.


Link in Dutch

Interesting development.
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:32 am

anrec80 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Poppycock.

The farce is Russia's stupid attempts at denial, presenting fabricated evidence that's easily debunked.

No Russian shill can convince me otherwise.


Russia isn’t part of the investigation and is not providing anything unless asked (e.g. documentation on the missile). The main “investigators” are Ukrainians, who should be under the investigation themselves. The rest of the investigation depends on them. Their main task is not to accidentally charge themselves, hence they totally would forge evidence, provide fake witnesses (especially given that they are “anonymous”). Anyone else’s problem is just to get out of this swamp without loss of face (and career). That’s about it.


All false or misleading statements and assumptions.
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:52 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
This has been debunked a long time ago. But it is a free world so you are entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.


Not only not debunked, but very recently confirmed:
https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/ ... #gsc.tab=0

An Australian article, about 2 weeks old (from June 9). About a Dutch prosecutor in the United States.

The United States may have crucial satellite photos of the missile used to bring down MH17 six years ago but the images are classified, a court has heard. In the District Court of The Hague on Tuesday, prosecutor Thijs Berger discussed radar and satellite analysis of the July 2014 downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.


He says the Dutch national prosecutor was briefed by US officials on several classified and unclassified documents. "Part of the underlying metadata and research data has not been made available for inspection," Berger told the court.


"The US authorities have indicated that they cannot provide more information about the detection of the missile than stated in the written statement and that the Dutch national prosecutor has given it confidential."


If this doesn't count as the fact on your end - then you need to clarify what does.


Ok, the court already got the information, thus there is no issue. We will see what the Judges make of it.
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:21 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Ok, the court already got the information, thus there is no issue. We will see what the Judges make of it.


Have you actually read the article and understood what they are writing about? It's not so well written and there is a lot of irrelevant stuff in between, but the point is simple. Days after the crash, soon to be 6 years ago, the USA claimed they have detailed satellite imagery. Prosecutor Berger, to his credit, tried to do his job and went to the USA to try to obtain the very source data for the case. The outcome was the same as always - he was said that the evidence exists, but not shown anything, even when he committed to keep it all private. Hence nobody received anything. And to add insult to an injury - the visit was followed up by a statement from the US authorities that nothing else will be released (essentially - that nobody will receive anything).

These images aren't unlike Area 51 in Arizona really - the UFO and aliens there are said to exist, and many believe (or believed) it. But nobody has actually seen any.

And this is really the only material piece of evidence that can help shed the light on what actually went on that tragic day in the Eastern Ukraine. Without that - all the prosecutors and the court has is fakes and speculations. Where the case stands now, it simply doesn't have anything material and verifiable (information from Russia on the missile aside, since it's not been made a part of the case).
 
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:29 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Ok, the court already got the information, thus there is no issue. We will see what the Judges make of it.


Have you actually read the article and understood what they are writing about? It's not so well written and there is a lot of irrelevant stuff in between, but the point is simple. Days after the crash, soon to be 6 years ago, the USA claimed they have detailed satellite imagery. Prosecutor Berger, to his credit, tried to do his job and went to the USA to try to obtain the very source data for the case. The outcome was the same as always - he was said that the evidence exists, but not shown anything, even when he committed to keep it all private. Hence nobody received anything. And to add insult to an injury - the visit was followed up by a statement from the US authorities that nothing else will be released (essentially - that nobody will receive anything).

These images aren't unlike Area 51 in Arizona really - the UFO and aliens there are said to exist, and many believe (or believed) it. But nobody has actually seen any.

And this is really the only material piece of evidence that can help shed the light on what actually went on that tragic day in the Eastern Ukraine. Without that - all the prosecutors and the court has is fakes and speculations. Where the case stands now, it simply doesn't have anything material and verifiable (information from Russia on the missile aside, since it's not been made a part of the case).


Nope, I haven't read it, why would I? I know your bias so your spin will be clear and I don't feel like feeding you anymore.

But ok, if you are telling the truth here - you aren't, lots more information available, including forensic evidence - then the four have nothing to fear and they will be acquitted. So you have something to triumph about in a few months. Remember that these judges are totally independent, so they judge this case on its merits.
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:58 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Nope, I haven't read it, why would I? I know your bias so your spin will be clear and I don't feel like feeding you anymore.


I don't think it'll hurt if you do. This is a normal Australian newspaper, writing about a Dutch prosecutor's visit to the USA. I don't see any bias anywhere here.

Dutchy wrote:
But ok, if you are telling the truth here - you aren't, lots more information available, including forensic evidence - then the four have nothing to fear and they will be acquitted. So you have something to triumph about in a few months. Remember that these judges are totally independent, so they judge this case on its merits.


Well, the actual investigative work has been done by one party, interested in the outcome. Their evidence is not from sources that we have grounds to believe are authentic and verifiable. And these four are being charged only with indirect participation. Regardless of the outcome, I will not see any reason to triumph unfortunately - in either case, we will not know the most important story - what actually went on that day on the ground. There has never been any coverage of this aspect and I do not foresee any. So far, media and public releases let each of us make any picture we wish.
 
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:12 pm

BTW read the article. Quite interesting and quite damming yet again to the Russian side. So interesting you point to this article.

America: shared information, classified and unclassified documentation
Russia: only low resolution satellite images. and radar tracks (an expert says it may be altered)
Russia: did not provide its military radar to the probe.
China: satellite was broken
Ukraine: radar data given

from article wrote:
The joint investigation team also analysed all available radar data from Ukraine and Russia, none of which detected a fighter plane in the area or a missile.


So it is quite inconsequential of the metadata from America. None show a missile, none show a fighter. But we have found pieces of the. missile. in the aircraft and bodies. So the missile was there and it was a BUK.

So indeed good article, thanks for showing it.
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:33 pm

anrec80 wrote:
]Well, the actual investigative work has been done by one party, interested in the outcome.


yup, all members of the JIT were interested in the outcome, where does the evidence lead them.

anrec80 wrote:
]Their evidence is not from sources that we have grounds to believe are authentic and verifiable.


Let me be positive, you were misled and you didn't read the reports, available on the internet, even in Russian, so you should. be able to read it.

anrec80 wrote:
And these four are being charged only with indirect participation.


No, you were misinformed, They are charged with 298 counts of. murder and the downing of an aircraft.

anrec80 wrote:
Regardless of the outcome, I will not see any reason to triumph unfortunately - in either case, we will not know the most important story - what actually went on that day on the ground.



True, those four charged are welcome to shed some light on this, they were there, but not talking.

anrec80 wrote:
There has never been any coverage of this aspect and I do not foresee any.

The JIT still have about 200 person of interests and continue to investigate.


anrec80 wrote:
So far, media and public releases let each of us make any picture we wish.


No, I follow this closely and the picture is crystal clear. Some just choose to ignore all evidence and prefer to make up their own little "picture".
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Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:59 am

Dutchy wrote:
yup, all members of the JIT were interested in the outcome, where does the evidence lead them.


Yepp - each has his own interests. Ukrainian ones - not to charge themselves. All others - to get out of this without damage to their careers. Actual truth is nowhere in the picture here.

Dutchy wrote:
Let me be positive, you were misled and you didn't read the reports, available on the internet, even in Russian, so you should. be able to read it.


Internet has a lot of things, but it doesn't mean that they have anything to do with reality.


Dutchy wrote:


As I said - that doesn't really matter and won't change anything, regardless how, by whose law you charge and whom.

Dutchy wrote:
True, those four charged are welcome to shed some light on this, they were there, but not talking.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Girkin is quite a public person and is actually quite open. What I admire the most is that everyone who wants to talk to him gets a chance to do so, but for some reason it's just JIT investigators who can't.

Here is his recent interview to a Ukrainian journalist Gordon - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf6K6pjK_Yw

YouTube has auto-generated English subtitles. There is a whole section related to MH-17, starting from 2:36:55.

2:38:30
Gordron: Can you comment data that Buk M1 was sent from Russia?
Girkin: - No, DNR militia hasn't done that. I will not comment anything else.

Gordron: When you learned that a Boeing was hit - what have you felt?
Girkin: - This was a big hit for me. I am not a totally senseless person. I do understand that about 300 innocent unrelated people were killed. I do have understanding that since I am a significant participant in the Donbass war, I feel indirectly responsible for this. As the DNR militia commander, it was a hard hit for me, since I knew that regardless who's at fault, we will be accused. It will be used against us. I never had any doubt and do not have any doubt today that it was the Ukrainian party who hit this plane.

Gordron: Do you think it was someone's mistake? Could it be taken for another plane?
Girkin: - I will not speculate - but look who could be a beneficiary. It's obvious. It's neither in rebels nor Russia's interests.

Gordron: Do you think it was someone's mistake? Could it be taken for another plane?
Girkin: - I will not speculate - but look who could be a beneficiary. It's obvious. It's neither in rebels nor Russia's interests.

2:43:00
Gordron: You know you are a suspect in this murder according to JIT investigation, right?
Girkin: - Well, I was among the first ones to be sanctioned, days after I appeared in Donbass. I do not expect any understanding or mercy from the enemy.

Gordron: Have you read your accusation?
Girkin: - I am not interested in that topic.

Gordron: You know your case is being heard?
Girkin: - I am aware of that, but do not follow this topic. I am aware of Western justice hypocrisy. It may look a bit more respectable that that of Russian one, but is not that much different.

Gordron: One of your fellow case participants, Gyurza, hired lawyers and sent them into the court. Why have you not done the same?
Girkin: - I will not play on someone else's territory according to someone else's rules.That was the first. Second - I am a citizen of Russian federation and do not recognize any jurisdiction of any international courts over me. Even if I were captured, it would be impossible to make me take part in it without any drugs.

Gordron: Is it possible that you will face the Hague court one day?
Girkin: - In theory, everything is possible. It is possible that some political changes happen in Russian Federation and I am given out. It is possible that I have a cup of tea somewhere and die soon after. It is possible that a brick falls onto my head. Everything is possible and I am taking it calmly.
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 11465
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:43 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
yup, all members of the JIT were interested in the outcome, where does the evidence lead them.


Yepp - each has his own interests. Ukrainian ones - not to charge themselves. All others - to get out of this without damage to their careers. Actual truth is nowhere in the picture here.


So you say, so you say. The JIT is actually well documented, for anyone to see. We will see if it stands for an independent court. I have said before, I will accept the outcome, you just stuff it away. Or have you changed your mind yet?

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Let me be positive, you were misled and you didn't read the reports, available on the internet, even in Russian, so you should. be able to read it.


Internet has a lot of things, but it doesn't mean that they have anything to do with reality.


Indeed, some comments make no sense and they are on the internet. But what I am talking about is, of course, all the information coming out of the official investigations, not just some Russian trolls. See the difference, or do you mean that everything that does not fit your narrative has nothing to do with reality? Help me out here, I do not understand what your aim is with such a vague statement.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:


As I said - that doesn't really matter and won't change anything, regardless how, by whose law you charge and whom.


Yes, I understand that it doesn't change anything for you. For the rest of the world it is important.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
True, those four charged are welcome to shed some light on this, they were there, but not talking.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Girkin is quite a public person and is actually quite open. What I admire the most is that everyone who wants to talk to him gets a chance to do so, but for some reason it's just JIT investigators who can't.


Girkin is welcome to come to the Netherlands and explain himself. That interview doesn't say anything. He denies everything, well it would be news if he admitted anything. The JIT investigators are bound by rules, not as simple as just an interview with an interviewer of your choosing. Why do you come up with this ridiculous compartment?

So yes, if Girkin tells what his exact role was with the dowing of the MH17 and who else was involved. We would come somewhere, just denying it, is what the Russian side has been doing in that past 6 years.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
Posts: 2741
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:36 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So you say, so you say. The JIT is actually well documented, for anyone to see. We will see if it stands for an independent court. I have said before, I will accept the outcome, you just stuff it away. Or have you changed your mind yet?


For me, the success criteria of this whole thing is when we find out what actually went on the ground and in the air that day, who pressed the button, get to know the identities of those people. Also, getting the whole story - airspace closure (which is a separate probe for some reason), where is the air traffic controller, etc. Not just pieces and "black hole theories".

Dutchy wrote:
Indeed, some comments make no sense and they are on the internet. But what I am talking about is, of course, all the information coming out of the official investigations, not just some Russian trolls. See the difference, or do you mean that everything that does not fit your narrative has nothing to do with reality? Help me out here, I do not understand what your aim is with such a vague statement.


all the information that JIT has, every single bit of it - is coming from an interested party, the party who should be a subject of this investigation, and not the investigator. Even though this information has been made official, that doesn't change the essence.

Dutchy wrote:
Girkin is welcome to come to the Netherlands and explain himself.


Girkin has his own life and doesn't owe anything to anyone.

Dutchy wrote:
The JIT investigators are bound by rules, not as simple as just an interview with an interviewer of your choosing. Why do you come up with this ridiculous compartment?


Didn't anyone even bother trying? Russia and Netherlands, Russia and Ukraine have a lot of agreements in mutual criminal investigation assistance. Someone could have sent a note to the Russian party requesting assistance in meeting and questioning those suspects. The only explanation I can think of - JIT for some reason prefers not to actually have them and their statements. Same as with Tsemakh earlier - his release to Russia and how he is wanted in The Hague was all over media, but nobody actually took the very legal actions required; they did even post an Interpol search warrant on him until he went back home. When the actual suspects are rather not to be had in the case - this is not justice apparently.

Dutchy wrote:
So yes, if Girkin tells what his exact role was with the dowing of the MH17 and who else was involved. We would come somewhere, just denying it, is what the Russian side has been doing in that past 6 years.


For that, someone needs to come out and talk to him. Maybe he will tell something different than what he says in public.
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 11465
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: MH17 trial - discussion tread

Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:14 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So you say, so you say. The JIT is actually well documented, for anyone to see. We will see if it stands for an independent court. I have said before, I will accept the outcome, you just stuff it away. Or have you changed your mind yet?


For me, the success criteria of this whole thing is when we find out what actually went on the ground and in the air that day, who pressed the button, get to know the identities of those people. Also, getting the whole story - airspace closure (which is a separate probe for some reason), where is the air traffic controller, etc. Not just pieces and "black hole theories".


This trail is about 4 people and their role in this atrocity. Not about anything else.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Indeed, some comments make no sense and they are on the internet. But what I am talking about is, of course, all the information coming out of the official investigations, not just some Russian trolls. See the difference, or do you mean that everything that does not fit your narrative has nothing to do with reality? Help me out here, I do not understand what your aim is with such a vague statement.


all the information that JIT has, every single bit of it - is coming from an interested party, the party who should be a subject of this investigation, and not the investigator. Even though this information has been made official, that doesn't change the essence.


That is simply not true. The JIT has lots of info from other sources, not in the last place the bodies and the airframe.

But let me ask you a very simple question. Would you rather have it that Ukraine did the investigation and trails all on their own? I mean that is the only other option since your Putin declined an international tribunal.

It was Ukraine territory so it is in the provocative to prosecute the guilty party. So they had the full right to do this on their own, but they choose to give it to the Netherlands. So what will it be? Ukraine alone, or do you have more faith in the current trail?

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Girkin is welcome to come to the Netherlands and explain himself.


Girkin has his own life and doesn't owe anything to anyone.


He owes it to the 298 dead and the people left behind.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The JIT investigators are bound by rules, not as simple as just an interview with an interviewer of your choosing. Why do you come up with this ridiculous compartment?


Didn't anyone even bother trying? Russia and Netherlands, Russia and Ukraine have a lot of agreements in mutual criminal investigation assistance. Someone could have sent a note to the Russian party requesting assistance in meeting and questioning those suspects. The only explanation I can think of - JIT for some reason prefers not to actually have them and their statements. Same as with Tsemakh earlier - his release to Russia and how he is wanted in The Hague was all over media, but nobody actually took the very legal actions required; they did even post an Interpol search warrant on him until he went back home. When the actual suspects are rather not to be had in the case - this is not justice apparently.


Russia has derailed this investigation everywhere they could, providing false information even altered information. Russia is not to be trusted and proven itself as such. For the world to see, even the military was involved..........

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So yes, if Girkin tells what his exact role was with the dowing of the MH17 and who else was involved. We would come somewhere, just denying it, is what the Russian side has been doing in that past 6 years.


For that, someone needs to come out and talk to him. Maybe he will tell something different than what he says in public.


Yes, the investigators would like to interview him, but not on his terms. What he says in public is irrelevant, there is a reason why police investigations are not conducted in public. So he is welcome to explain himself in court.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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