Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 11784
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:20 pm

The Northern European Enclosure Dam (NEED) is a proposed solution to the problem of rising ocean levels in Northern Europe. It would be a megaproject, involving the construction of two massive dams in the English Channel and the North Sea; the former between France and England, and the latter between Scotland and Norway. The concept was conceived by the oceanographers Sjoerd Groeskamp and Joakim Kjellsson. As of 2020, the scheme is largely a thought experiment intended to demonstrate the extreme cost of engineered solutions to the effects of climate change. The scheme's authors describe it as "more of a warning than a solution".


Image


Image

Link to wiki

So if we can't beat it, contain it.

God created earth, but the Dutch created Holland 8-)

It would be interesting to have this build in the decades to come, and I think it is necessary. It would protect 25 million of inhabitants and billions and billions of property value.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
Posts: 2251
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:38 am

One very intersting side effect would be that it would probably change the travel patterns while it be combined with highways and rail...


It would mean that baltic sea and nothern sea become fresh water resarvoars. It would also mean that sea transport would need to enter an leave on specific enter points.
 
olle
Posts: 2251
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:40 am

It would save netherland and denmark. In denmark there are even discussions about having capital in Roskilde if major parts when copenhagen gets below sea level.
 
olle
Posts: 2251
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:41 am

Under what legal legislation would it be?
 
olle
Posts: 2251
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:43 am

If Ireland and scotland get a bridge or tunnel suddenly it would have fast land connection both to scandinavia and france / iberia.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 11784
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:45 am

olle wrote:
Under what legal legislation would it be?


What do you mean? I don't think the North sea is international waters yet. The EEZ is 200nm.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
johns624
Posts: 2793
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:25 am

Where would they get all the rock/dirt/concrete from?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 11784
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:33 am

Don't know, it is just a paper exercise, But it can be done, if there is a political will to do it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 13136
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:19 pm

The South dam would land at Plouescat, just west and in the same canton (small administrative subdivision) where my parents have a family home, my father his sailboat, an uncle lives there too... I don't think they'd be happy with that big wall. The immediate coast is at risk, and the beautiful beaches, however the city has some altitude and is on granite rock so it's not really in any danger from climate change.

olle wrote:
One very intersting side effect would be that it would probably change the travel patterns while it be combined with highways and rail...

It would mean that baltic sea and nothern sea become fresh water resarvoars. It would also mean that sea transport would need to enter an leave on specific enter points.


The salt won't disappear, if anything it will become more salty, like the Mediterranean sea.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3922
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:07 pm

Aesma wrote:
The salt won't disappear, if anything it will become more salty, like the Mediterranean sea.

Are you sure about that? The Zuiderzee was closed of by the Afsluitdam, thus creating the IJsselmeer. It only took two years for the IJsselmeer to turn from saltwater to freshwater.

Obviously the IJsselmeer is significantly smaller then what's proposed here. But I don't suggest it would take two years for the north sea to turn into fresh water. It would take decades if not centuries.
Attamottamotta!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:03 pm

At a British Citizen I can’t see any willingness for ourselves to make any financial contributions.

If anything we would need to be compensated for the costs of moving our major ports which would be impacted.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2487
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:16 pm

Makes no sense. Even if the project would be economically feasible, the danger would be that if that dam breaks the entirety of Western Europe would be screwed beyond imagination.
Instead, people should consider floating cities. Move towards to open ocean and keep all land for farming and Nature.
I fact, the advantage of floating cities during the current Coronavirus Pandemic would be that those that are inflicted with the virus could easily be separated by simply "floating" their buildings to the outer rim of the floating cites, while keep the floating core with schools, government functions, etc. safe. "Social Distancing" could literally be achieved.
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 327
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:19 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
At a British Citizen I can’t see any willingness for ourselves to make any financial contributions.

If anything we would need to be compensated for the costs of moving our major ports which would be impacted.


I can't imagine the costs for this project will never be financially viable, but the reasons for the idea is sound.

The UK will not be imune to losing large areas of land due to rising sea levels: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51283716
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:52 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
At a British Citizen I can’t see any willingness for ourselves to make any financial contributions.

If anything we would need to be compensated for the costs of moving our major ports which would be impacted.


I can't imagine the costs for this project will never be financially viable, but the reasons for the idea is sound.

The UK will not be imune to losing large areas of land due to rising sea levels: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51283716


True. But localised protection of parts of the UK, would be cheaper.

Some parts of Lincolnshire maybe best to abandon, should sea levels rise.
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10725
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:25 pm

Depending on how rapidly sea level rise occurs, it's quite possible that many areas of the UK and Europe will outpace it through glacio isostatic adjustment. Conversely, there are many other areas where it will double down and make the situation far worse - potentially unmanageable in the long run.
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13193
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:34 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The salt won't disappear, if anything it will become more salty, like the Mediterranean sea.

Are you sure about that? The Zuiderzee was closed of by the Afsluitdam, thus creating the IJsselmeer. It only took two years for the IJsselmeer to turn from saltwater to freshwater.

Obviously the IJsselmeer is significantly smaller then what's proposed here. But I don't suggest it would take two years for the north sea to turn into fresh water. It would take decades if not centuries.


The Mediterranean is connected to salt water bodies and is fairly warm year round = lots of evaporation = higher salinity.

The North see would only have fresh water inflows remaining. It would turn into fresh water, it just would take longer.

Freshwater inflow is ~5000m3/s, north sea volume is 54.000 km3 ... ~300 years.

Average depth is 90ish meters, rainfall abou 800mm/year ... ~ 110 years.

If you are born the day the dam is closed up you may very well life long enough to see it turn into a fresh water body.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 3018
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:59 pm

Neat thought experiment. I love these types of discussions. One must completely remove themselves from the political side of it and consider only that it has the ability to be done, thus what is required and the ramifications of such.

I see the biggest issue being the obvious shipping obstacles that would be introduced. As of 2013, Rotterdam was the world's eighth largest container port handling 440.5 million metric tonnes of cargo annually.

But if you look at the location between northern Scotland and Orkneys it looks like that would be the ideal place to put in a lock system.

Now don't eviscerate me here... (thought experiment!) but what is the total volume of water that sheds into the enclosed area? I don't have the numbers or I would calculate this, but is it possible that enclosing the area could have unintended effects of trapping the water in - rather than keeping excess sea water out? Remember, you have several major rivers that dump into the area, so we're not just talking surface area of rain on the enclosed water area. It requires a deep dive on the entire watershed area of the northern European continent and its outflows.
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 2567
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:04 pm

This dam would screw up one of the best fishing areas in the world.

It might also mess up the Gulf Stream winds and make Scandinavia even colder.

Also the inside of this dam has the most shipping traffic anywhere in the world. So you would need sluices.

The most interesting suggestion:

I've heard a suggestion to drain the area completely or at least partly. If the area was drained partly, we would recreate Doggerland. We would leave some ocean around the Doggerland and coast of Norway, so that shipping still can happen, and possibly still be able to fish.. at least some species.

But major projects like these, as the draining of the Aral sea in the Soviet Union ended in complete disaster and massive ecological effects. So I don't think it's a good idea.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13193
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:15 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Now don't eviscerate me here... (thought experiment!) but what is the total volume of water that sheds into the enclosed area? I don't have the numbers or I would calculate this, but is it possible that enclosing the area could have unintended effects of trapping the water in - rather than keeping excess sea water out? Remember, you have several major rivers that dump into the area, so we're not just talking surface area of rain on the enclosed water area. It requires a deep dive on the entire watershed area of the northern European continent and its outflows.


The north sea is has essentially no outflow into other salt water bodies (atlantic direct, via channel, barents sea) and is inflow only. Hence evaporation exceeds rainfall and fresh water inflow. This is likely going to be reinforced by the climate warming leading to even more evaporation and possibly less rain fall to feed the rivers.

I would think the north see level would sink, unless we let some salt water in. This would open up the chance to control salt water inflow via hydropower. If, random number, evaporation exceeds inflow by 100mm/a, we'd need about 60km3/a sea water inflow to maintain sea levels... 2000m3/s ... not much. ... 5m lift, 200cm pipe for ~6 m/s flow... 100MW or so. Drop in the bucket:).

Best regards
Thomas

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13193
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:25 pm

johns624 wrote:
Where would they get all the rock/dirt/concrete from?


You can probably sink the top 10.000 feet of Mt. Everest into those dams.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2223
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The Northern European Enclosure Dam (NEED) is a proposed solution to the problem of rising ocean levels in Northern Europe.

The concept was conceived by the oceanographers Sjoerd Groeskamp and Joakim Kjellsson.

Link to wiki

It would protect 25 million of inhabitants and billions and billions of property value.

That's just a drop in the ocean (pun intended).

Q.1 Is any part of Norway at real risk?
Yes, I realize that the majority of Norway's population probably lives on the coastal margin, not the interior of the country. But as sea level rise, at least they have plenty of higher ground to fall back on. (unlike the Netherlands)

Q.2 Is any part of Scotland at real risk?

Q.3 What are the nationalities of the main authors of this idea? :scratchchin:


My take is that the places with the most to lose, and at the most risk, are the Netherlands, Denmark, and parts of the English coastline. Not Norway or Scotland.
Others have covered Netherlands and Denmark; here's the English angle.
Wikipedia wrote:
The Holderness coastline suffers the highest rate of coastal erosion in Europe: 5 feet (1.5 m) a year on average or 2 million tonnes of material a year.

Topographically, Holderness has more in common with the Netherlands than with other parts of Yorkshire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holderness
wikipedia wrote:
Dunwich; now a small village in Suffolk, pop 183
At its height it was an international port similar in size to 14th century London.
Portions of the settlement were lost at various times, with the final major act being the Grote Mandrenke of 1362.
Coastal erosion continues to this day, with the last of Dunwich's many ancient churches falling into the sea between 1904 and 1922.

So... how about a dam reaching across from just north of Holderness, to the coast of Denmark, and thence up the coastline and across to... Gothenburg?
That way you can take advantage of the shallow waters across the Dogger Bank, and the artificial islands being created as part of the North Sea Wind Power Hub

The Dogger Bank is a large sandbank in a shallow area of the North Sea about 100 kilometres (62 mi) off the east coast of England, extending a further 260 km towards Denmark. This area was once dry land, not so very long ago! Fishing trawlers working the area have dredged up large amounts of moorpeat, remains of mammoth and rhinoceros, and occasionally Palaeolithic hunting artefacts.

Dutch, German, and Danish electrical grid operators are cooperating in a project to build a North Sea Wind Power Hub complex on one or more artificial islands to be constructed on Dogger Bank as part of a European system for sustainable electricity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Wind_Power_Hub

Image
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
TangoandCash
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:52 pm

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:21 pm

I'd love for some engineering type to continue this thought experiment and determine the amount of material necessary to create such a dam.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2825
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:12 pm

TangoandCash wrote:
I'd love for some engineering type to continue this thought experiment and determine the amount of material necessary to create such a dam.

Not that much. Most of it can be soil from sea bottom, lifted in close proximity. And English channel is pretty shallow, I believe 8 meters is the largest draft for ships to pass.
look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Petersburg_Dam as an example of such construction.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 13136
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:43 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The salt won't disappear, if anything it will become more salty, like the Mediterranean sea.

Are you sure about that? The Zuiderzee was closed of by the Afsluitdam, thus creating the IJsselmeer. It only took two years for the IJsselmeer to turn from saltwater to freshwater.

Obviously the IJsselmeer is significantly smaller then what's proposed here. But I don't suggest it would take two years for the north sea to turn into fresh water. It would take decades if not centuries.


Significantly smaller is an understatement, it's only 5m deep, and used to be land a few centuries ago.

But it appears you're right, not enough volcanic activity under the North Sea to bring it fresh salt :

The continued discharge would also lead to a freshening of the basin, with salinity projected to reduce by a factor 10 over the course of a century. This would greatly affect biodiversity and fishing.


They might consider diverting some of that discharge though, as it is they plan 100 mega pumps to keep the level of the water low enough !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
kalvado
Posts: 2825
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:41 pm

Aesma wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The salt won't disappear, if anything it will become more salty, like the Mediterranean sea.

Are you sure about that? The Zuiderzee was closed of by the Afsluitdam, thus creating the IJsselmeer. It only took two years for the IJsselmeer to turn from saltwater to freshwater.

Obviously the IJsselmeer is significantly smaller then what's proposed here. But I don't suggest it would take two years for the north sea to turn into fresh water. It would take decades if not centuries.


Significantly smaller is an understatement, it's only 5m deep, and used to be land a few centuries ago.

But it appears you're right, not enough volcanic activity under the North Sea to bring it fresh salt :

The continued discharge would also lead to a freshening of the basin, with salinity projected to reduce by a factor 10 over the course of a century. This would greatly affect biodiversity and fishing.


They might consider diverting some of that discharge though, as it is they plan 100 mega pumps to keep the level of the water low enough !

And then there may be a storm coming. What can go wrong? New Orleans did great with the levees!
Image
 
Okie
Posts: 4146
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:46 pm

What>>>>>>>
So the concept is to dig up the sea floor as in disturb.
Then dilute the sea water as in decrease its weight.

All this on top of probably the earths largest accumulation of Methane Hydrate and release the Methane to destroy the atmosphere.

Have I got your project right?


Okie

Edited: There is only 930Billion tons of coal on the Earth, you are dealing with 3Trillion tons of Methane Hydrate.
Last edited by Okie on Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3922
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:48 pm

kalvado wrote:
And then there may be a storm coming. What can go wrong? New Orleans did great with the levees!

Storm happen all the time. The only lessons that Katrina (should have) taught is that one should not save money on maintenance, and that you should listen and act to what experts say.

But those lessons seem to be very tough to learn, and not just when it comes to water management.
Attamottamotta!
 
kalvado
Posts: 2825
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:53 pm

petertenthije wrote:
kalvado wrote:
And then there may be a storm coming. What can go wrong? New Orleans did great with the levees!

Storm happen all the time. The only lessons that Katrina (should have) taught is that one should not save money on maintenance, and that you should listen and act to what experts say.

But those lessons seem to be very tough to learn, and not just when it comes to water management.

Problem is bigger - a few (tens, hundreds) years after construction come lean times, and there is no way to fully support what was built. And large object prone to critical failure becomes a problem...
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4453
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:32 am

olle wrote:
It would save netherland and denmark. In denmark there are even discussions about having capital in Roskilde if major parts when copenhagen gets below sea level.


I can assure you there are no serious discussions about moving the capital. Even if there were, a minor fringe town like Roskilde would be the last place it would move to.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12957
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:11 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
At a British Citizen I can’t see any willingness for ourselves to make any financial contributions.

If anything we would need to be compensated for the costs of moving our major ports which would be impacted.


There would obviously be massive sea locks so cargo vessels could transit to ports inside the area.

These sea locks would also ensure the area remained salty, if it didn’t you’d cause massive ecological damage to wildlife inside the area.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12957
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:24 pm

trpmb6 wrote:

I see the biggest issue being the obvious shipping obstacles that would be introduced. As of 2013, Rotterdam was the world's eighth largest container port handling 440.5 million metric tonnes of cargo annually.

But if you look at the location between northern Scotland and Orkneys it looks like that would be the ideal place to put in a lock system.


It’s not just Rotterdam most of Europe’s largest ports would be behind the dam.

Hamburg
Bremerhaven
Port of London
Southampton
Felixstowe
Antwerp
Le Harve
St Petersburg
 
User avatar
Erebus
Posts: 1164
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:40 am

Re: NEED - Northern European Enclosure Dam

Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:47 pm

Sorry, I cannot see this as doing more good than harm. You want to save 25 million people and billions and billions of property value by spending billions and billions to build it. But what concerns me most is the scale of the project, enclosing an entire body of water and its effect on its ecosystems, habitats. What does it do to the water flow, current patterns, nutrient distribution, migration and feeding patterns of marine species. Please don''t mess with those.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: akiss20, ArchGuy1, Baidu [Spider], Cory6188, FGITD, flyguy89, lentokone, N867DA, tommy1808, winginit and 48 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos