Derico
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Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:40 am

I read this article just recently:

https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/columns/co ... rship.html

This kind of assessment is being repeated in country after country: Parisians thinking they are above the virus, The UK government thinking it can create immunity from thin air, Italy's lack of tracking patients, the unpreparedness of several other countries in the EU, the utter denial of reality by government authorities and many people in North America.

The general idea when you put it all together is, the peoples and governments of the developed western world thought they were too advanced, too civilized, and too well-off, and that the virus would mainly "bounce" on the periphery of their realms, and mainly wreak havoc in the less developed nations and in Asia, because of their "funny" eating habits.

Is this a sweeping, unfair assessment? Or does the behavior of European and North American governments clearly show they were caught completely napping in a big lake of complacency?
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Jouhou
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:09 am

It's just humans being humans. They don't want to change their way of life so they will justify why they don't have to change until it's too late.
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bgm
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:47 am

The difference being that different countries have different relationships with authority. In authoritarian regimes, they have far more control over peoples' movements. In the west, people are less likely to adhere to the quarantine restrictions placed upon them.
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VSMUT
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:22 am

It's not arrogance. It is lack of discipline and a dose of selfishness in conjunction with liberal freedoms. Westerners aren't used to being told by the state to act in certain ways.

Case in point, taking the train to the airport a few days ago. At the station I passed a large group of women standing close together, loudly cackling about how the government had told them to go into quarantine for two weeks :banghead:
The prior day in the train from the airport I overhead another woman speaking loudly to another passenger about how she had just returned from Italy. It has been weeks since the government instructed people returning from Italy (among others) to NOT take public transport when they return :banghead:
People running around all over the place coughing out into the blue :banghead:

Not saying we should go full dictatorial, but Vietnam has pretty effectively contained it by putting all suspects into quarantine for 14 days. IMO, our weak and incompetent western politicians should have done the same.


But that having been said, I feel we should mark the 100th anniversary of the Versailles treaty by imposing similar crippling reparations on China. Punish them for letting it spin out of control. Confiscate their industry and merchant fleets. Make them pay for the damages. Make sure no one will ever dare repeat the mistakes they made.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:56 am

VSMUT wrote:
It's not arrogance. It is lack of discipline and a dose of selfishness in conjunction with liberal freedoms. Westerners aren't used to being told by the state to act in certain ways.

Case in point, taking the train to the airport a few days ago. At the station I passed a large group of women standing close together, loudly cackling about how the government had told them to go into quarantine for two weeks :banghead:
The prior day in the train from the airport I overhead another woman speaking loudly to another passenger about how she had just returned from Italy. It has been weeks since the government instructed people returning from Italy (among others) to NOT take public transport when they return :banghead:
People running around all over the place coughing out into the blue :banghead:

Not saying we should go full dictatorial, but Vietnam has pretty effectively contained it by putting all suspects into quarantine for 14 days. IMO, our weak and incompetent western politicians should have done the same.


Right, one of the rare circumstances, a dictatorship works more than a liberal democracy. To be fair, they did put any suspects into self-quarantine for 14 days, at least in the Netherlands. But indeed, it was not enforced. Now they enforce people to stay home for the greater good, at least in Spain and Italy.

VSMUT wrote:
But that having been said, I feel we should mark the 100th anniversary of the Versailles treaty by imposing similar crippling reparations on China. Punish them for letting it spin out of control. Confiscate their industry and merchant fleets. Make them pay for the damages. Make sure no one will ever dare repeat the mistakes they made.


Can't tell if you are serious or not, but to be clear: let's not. The Versailles treaty was one of the reasons WWII started.
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VSMUT
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:30 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Can't tell if you are serious or not, but to be clear: let's not. The Versailles treaty was one of the reasons WWII started.


It was well within their means to prevent, then control the outbreak. They deserve to foot the bill for this mess.
 
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:45 pm

I am an observer of evolutionary ethics. Our successes of the last 500 years are utterly astounding - science, culture, infrastructure. But we do it all with a very much of a kludge of a brain. I think the problems we face are inevitable. One of my not quite jokes: Republicans only think about the next election cycle. Democrats are better - they think about the next two. Obviously neither do what really needs doing. But two is better than one.
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kalvado
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:59 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Can't tell if you are serious or not, but to be clear: let's not. The Versailles treaty was one of the reasons WWII started.


It was well within their means to prevent, then control the outbreak. They deserve to foot the bill for this mess.

One of the things to remember:
Universal declaration of human rights. Countries were sanctioned for not abiding that.
Amond other things, it says
Article 13 1. Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State. 2. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country

The only place people can be legally stopped is when they enter a foreign country. SO, countries not stopping infection at their doorstep are the ones to blame, right?
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:15 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I am an observer of evolutionary ethics. Our successes of the last 500 years are utterly astounding - science, culture, infrastructure. But we do it all with a very much of a kludge of a brain. I think the problems we face are inevitable. One of my not quite jokes: Republicans only think about the next election cycle. Democrats are better - they think about the next two. Obviously neither do what really needs doing. But two is better than one.


It pains to say it, but I think Baby-Boomers are the most to blame.
They voted themselves lavish benefits and stuck the bill to future generations. They are the ones that control most businesses. They are the ones that dominate politics (average age of Congress is like 58 years, https://www.senate.gov/CRSpubs/b8f6293e ... f8e809.pdf). They are the ones that have made all the disastrous decisions since the early 90's.
And it is not just the US. Japan is run by the same clique of old men who decide what's best for them. Guess what it got Japan: decades of stagnation.

It is high time that the Old White Men who apparently ru(i)n everything make way for a newer, younger generation that hopefully will do a better job.
 
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:43 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Can't tell if you are serious or not, but to be clear: let's not. The Versailles treaty was one of the reasons WWII started.


It was well within their means to prevent, then control the outbreak. They deserve to foot the bill for this mess.


Come back with that line of reasoning when the graph showing the number of infected is going flat in your country. They cracked down on the outbreak faster and harder than any western government would have, and probably harder than they legally could have.

Every single country on this planet had its first case, and could have stopped the outbreak. And, knowing about the virus weeks before, different from the Beijing Junta, that would have been much easier. And not one did any better, in fact the majority of cases is now outside of China.

If you want to cripple the PRC, i am all for it, but that would be a pretty dumb reason.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
VSMUT
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:34 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Come back with that line of reasoning when the graph showing the number of infected is going flat in your country. They cracked down on the outbreak faster and harder than any western government would have, and probably harder than they legally could have.


They started the whole thing by arresting whistle-blowers and refuting the whole thing.

Western governments deserve blame for their inaction, but face it, we aren't the source of multiple outbreaks in the past few decades either. Did you forget that SARS and the H1N1 outbreaks originated from China as well? They are the ones with disgusting, dangerous habits, and don't learn from them.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:05 pm

VSMUT wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Come back with that line of reasoning when the graph showing the number of infected is going flat in your country. They cracked down on the outbreak faster and harder than any western government would have, and probably harder than they legally could have.


They started the whole thing by arresting whistle-blowers and refuting the whole thing.

Western governments deserve blame for their inaction, but face it, we aren't the source of multiple outbreaks in the past few decades either. Did you forget that SARS and the H1N1 outbreaks originated from China as well? They are the ones with disgusting, dangerous habits, and don't learn from them.


Indeed. Truth hurts and the facts speak for themselves.
China had plenty time after SARS to shutdown all the wet food markets and announce stringent hygienic rules. Instead, they did NOTHING...and here we are.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:10 pm

VSMUT wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Come back with that line of reasoning when the graph showing the number of infected is going flat in your country. They cracked down on the outbreak faster and harder than any western government would have, and probably harder than they legally could have.


They started the whole thing by arresting whistle-blowers and refuting the whole thing.

Western governments deserve blame for their inaction, but face it, we aren't the source of multiple outbreaks in the past few decades either. Did you forget that SARS and the H1N1 outbreaks originated from China as well? They are the ones with disgusting, dangerous habits, and don't learn from them.


I agree with your premise and yes most originate there, but to be fair the Swine flu began in Mexico.

So third world countries (China is still one despite their economic success) are the ones where all of this originate.

The woke crowd will say thats racist and arrogant but its the truth.

Arrogance is to keep all borders open just not to appear racist. In the end they will close them anyways if not ask Germany and the others.
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kalvado
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:17 pm

VSMUT wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Come back with that line of reasoning when the graph showing the number of infected is going flat in your country. They cracked down on the outbreak faster and harder than any western government would have, and probably harder than they legally could have.


They started the whole thing by arresting whistle-blowers and refuting the whole thing.

Western governments deserve blame for their inaction, but face it, we aren't the source of multiple outbreaks in the past few decades either. Did you forget that SARS and the H1N1 outbreaks originated from China as well? They are the ones with disgusting, dangerous habits, and don't learn from them.

China had 100+/- cases by the new year, when response started to unwind. Less than 60 cases from before 1/1 are identified today.
Acting on the basis of only a few cases... Show me any other country which did so, even armed with knowledge of Wuhan events?

And yes, I think US had plenty of time since 1918 flu to shutdown all pig and poultry farms. Did they?
 
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 5:02 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Come back with that line of reasoning when the graph showing the number of infected is going flat in your country. They cracked down on the outbreak faster and harder than any western government would have, and probably harder than they legally could have.


They started the whole thing by arresting whistle-blowers and refuting the whole thing.

Western governments deserve blame for their inaction, but face it, we aren't the source of multiple outbreaks in the past few decades either. Did you forget that SARS and the H1N1 outbreaks originated from China as well? They are the ones with disgusting, dangerous habits, and don't learn from them.


I agree with your premise and yes most originate there, but to be fair the Swine flu began in Mexico.

So third world countries (China is still one despite their economic success) are the ones where all of this originate.

The woke crowd will say thats racist and arrogant but its the truth.

Arrogance is to keep all borders open just not to appear racist. In the end they will close them anyways if not ask Germany and the others.


You can't even generalize it to 3rd world or developing countries. India hasn't spawned any worldwide epidemics of these proportions, and most people who have been there will testify that they are far behind on all matters related to hygiene. It is China in particular.
 
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seb146
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 5:41 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Come back with that line of reasoning when the graph showing the number of infected is going flat in your country. They cracked down on the outbreak faster and harder than any western government would have, and probably harder than they legally could have.


They started the whole thing by arresting whistle-blowers and refuting the whole thing.

Western governments deserve blame for their inaction, but face it, we aren't the source of multiple outbreaks in the past few decades either. Did you forget that SARS and the H1N1 outbreaks originated from China as well? They are the ones with disgusting, dangerous habits, and don't learn from them.


I agree with your premise and yes most originate there, but to be fair the Swine flu began in Mexico.

So third world countries (China is still one despite their economic success) are the ones where all of this originate.

The woke crowd will say thats racist and arrogant but its the truth.

Arrogance is to keep all borders open just not to appear racist. In the end they will close them anyways if not ask Germany and the others.


The MAGA crew are making this about race. Why everything gotta be about race with you people? The "woke crowd" see people getting infected. The "woke crowd" is trying to travel less and avoid people. The MAGA crew are out there fearing Asian people. Since you want to make this a race thing.

Back on topic:

Humans are inherently social creatures. Some of us hate being social but, by and large, we are social. Some of us are neurotic about being alone. Some of us are attention seekers. Those two groups are the ones who are probably being infected at a higher rate. That is simply my opinion, so do not read anything else into that. I do not think it is "The West" paying any kind of price, but, rather, the species.
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:18 pm

seb146 wrote:
The MAGA crew are making this about race. Why everything gotta be about race with you people? The "woke crowd" see people getting infected. The "woke crowd" is trying to travel less and avoid people. The MAGA crew are out there fearing Asian people. Since you want to make this a race thing.


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StarAC17
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:26 pm

bgm wrote:
The difference being that different countries have different relationships with authority. In authoritarian regimes, they have far more control over peoples' movements. In the west, people are less likely to adhere to the quarantine restrictions placed upon them.


This.

In Canada there is still a very strong trust of the government (regional squabbles aside, but those always exist) and we are taking this seriously and the citizens are largely listening and adapting to the measures set out by experts. Whether or not it is too late will remain to be determined.

Derico wrote:
I read this article just recently:

https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/columns/co ... rship.html

This kind of assessment is being repeated in country after country: Parisians thinking they are above the virus, The UK government thinking it can create immunity from thin air, Italy's lack of tracking patients, the unpreparedness of several other countries in the EU, the utter denial of reality by government authorities and many people in North America.

The general idea when you put it all together is, the peoples and governments of the developed western world thought they were too advanced, too civilized, and too well-off, and that the virus would mainly "bounce" on the periphery of their realms, and mainly wreak havoc in the less developed nations and in Asia, because of their "funny" eating habits.

Is this a sweeping, unfair assessment? Or does the behavior of European and North American governments clearly show they were caught completely napping in a big lake of complacency?


Canada was burned by SARS in 2003 and we aren't screwing around. I find that the areas of the US that have more faith in their local governments are acting accordingly but some other areas are not. My relatives in Florida do not think this is serious at all.
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StarAC17
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:41 pm

VSMUT wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

They started the whole thing by arresting whistle-blowers and refuting the whole thing.

Western governments deserve blame for their inaction, but face it, we aren't the source of multiple outbreaks in the past few decades either. Did you forget that SARS and the H1N1 outbreaks originated from China as well? They are the ones with disgusting, dangerous habits, and don't learn from them.


I agree with your premise and yes most originate there, but to be fair the Swine flu began in Mexico.

So third world countries (China is still one despite their economic success) are the ones where all of this originate.

The woke crowd will say thats racist and arrogant but its the truth.

Arrogance is to keep all borders open just not to appear racist. In the end they will close them anyways if not ask Germany and the others.


You can't even generalize it to 3rd world or developing countries. India hasn't spawned any worldwide epidemics of these proportions, and most people who have been there will testify that they are far behind on all matters related to hygiene. It is China in particular.


India doesn't have Wet Markets to my knowledge.

From what I know of the Indian diet it has less meat than the western diet (the meat they do eat is pretty tradtional) and they aren't having animals who often wouldn't interact in nature with humans also present. Also the diseases in India such as Cholera are bacterial in nature and less susceptible to a global outbreak.
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:45 pm

VSMUT wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

They started the whole thing by arresting whistle-blowers and refuting the whole thing.

Western governments deserve blame for their inaction, but face it, we aren't the source of multiple outbreaks in the past few decades either. Did you forget that SARS and the H1N1 outbreaks originated from China as well? They are the ones with disgusting, dangerous habits, and don't learn from them.


I agree with your premise and yes most originate there, but to be fair the Swine flu began in Mexico.

So third world countries (China is still one despite their economic success) are the ones where all of this originate.

The woke crowd will say thats racist and arrogant but its the truth.

Arrogance is to keep all borders open just not to appear racist. In the end they will close them anyways if not ask Germany and the others.


You can't even generalize it to 3rd world or developing countries. India hasn't spawned any worldwide epidemics of these proportions, and most people who have been there will testify that they are far behind on all matters related to hygiene. It is China in particular.


You got a point there, the Spanish flu has also been thought to originate in China, since out of all the countries that it hit worldwide it hit less on China since they appeared to be more inmune to it somehow.
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:33 pm

kalvado wrote:
And yes, I think US had plenty of time since 1918 flu to shutdown all pig and poultry farms. Did they?

I'm sure any pig or poultry farm or slaughterhouse has its challenges, but the Chinese "wet markets" where different species of exotic animals are slaughtered in open air unsanitary conditions are in a league of their own.

Ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPpoJGYlW54
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StuckinCMHland
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:10 pm

Seriously people?

Some of you blame the West for everything these days. Now you blame individuals in the West and complain when people and governments don't act like China?

1. We have western leaders and governments talking every day about this; when Xi and his people were in the same position they hid when the virus was going around China and only China?
2. Not only did the Chinese lie, they continue to lie about the number of people who are and died. We will never know the truth.
3. You know, all of you are complaining about how people are acting since they do not do what you want them to do and hold up china as an example of what should be done. So why are you not blaming China for allowing massive gatherings of people to happen after they knew about the virus, and never limited travel of their citizens out of the country until the virus spread?
4. Is not one of the major problems with Italy and Iran is that many Chinese laborers live and work in Italy, and likely passed the virus in that country before it was recognized? The Chinese did not even care for their friends the Iranians, even exposing senior leaders in the government to the virus?
5. Do you not remember the videos from China showing police and soldiers boarding up apartments and buildings so the people inside could not get out? Is that really humane, or is that a ruthless totalitarian state treating its own people like dirt so the ruling class can survive and burnish its reputation?

We could go on and on about this, and western governments and its citizens who value freedom and liberty are not perfect. But this thread is a parody of reality. I feel very bad for some of you who either live under an authoritarian government,or desire your government to act like one. We shall see very soon who has the better solutions to this problem, and what populations handle it better. I'll be on the West, not the East.
 
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:22 pm

StuckinCMHland wrote:
Seriously people?

Some of you blame the West for everything these days. Now you blame individuals in the West and complain when people and governments don't act like China?

1. We have western leaders and governments talking every day about this; when Xi and his people were in the same position they hid when the virus was going around China and only China?
2. Not only did the Chinese lie, they continue to lie about the number of people who are and died. We will never know the truth.
3. You know, all of you are complaining about how people are acting since they do not do what you want them to do and hold up china as an example of what should be done. So why are you not blaming China for allowing massive gatherings of people to happen after they knew about the virus, and never limited travel of their citizens out of the country until the virus spread?
4. Is not one of the major problems with Italy and Iran is that many Chinese laborers live and work in Italy, and likely passed the virus in that country before it was recognized? The Chinese did not even care for their friends the Iranians, even exposing senior leaders in the government to the virus?
5. Do you not remember the videos from China showing police and soldiers boarding up apartments and buildings so the people inside could not get out? Is that really humane, or is that a ruthless totalitarian state treating its own people like dirt so the ruling class can survive and burnish its reputation?

We could go on and on about this, and western governments and its citizens who value freedom and liberty are not perfect. But this thread is a parody of reality. I feel very bad for some of you who either live under an authoritarian government,or desire your government to act like one. We shall see very soon who has the better solutions to this problem, and what populations handle it better. I'll be on the West, not the East.

Not to mention:

The death of a Chinese doctor who tried to warn about the coronavirus outbreak has sparked widespread public anger and grief in China.

Li Wenliang died after contracting the virus while treating patients in Wuhan.

Last December he sent a message to fellow medics warning of a virus he thought looked like Sars - another deadly coronavirus.

But he was told by police to "stop making false comments" and was investigated for "spreading rumours".


"I don't think he was rumour-mongering. Hasn't this turned into reality now?" his father, Li Shuying, told the BBC. "My son was wonderful."

According to Chinese site Pear Video, Dr Li's wife is due to give birth in June.

Ref: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51409801
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:24 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I am an observer of evolutionary ethics. Our successes of the last 500 years are utterly astounding - science, culture, infrastructure. But we do it all with a very much of a kludge of a brain. I think the problems we face are inevitable. One of my not quite jokes: Republicans only think about the next election cycle. Democrats are better - they think about the next two. Obviously neither do what really needs doing. But two is better than one.


It pains to say it, but I think Baby-Boomers are the most to blame.
They voted themselves lavish benefits and stuck the bill to future generations. They are the ones that control most businesses. They are the ones that dominate politics (average age of Congress is like 58 years, https://www.senate.gov/CRSpubs/b8f6293e ... f8e809.pdf). They are the ones that have made all the disastrous decisions since the early 90's.
And it is not just the US. Japan is run by the same clique of old men who decide what's best for them. Guess what it got Japan: decades of stagnation.

It is high time that the Old White Men who apparently ru(i)n everything make way for a newer, younger generation that hopefully will do a better job.


I second this.
 
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:42 pm

And most of them never knew that the post WWII economy was fueled in good part by higher taxes (top rate 90%, which almost no one paid) and government spending. Then things really took off under Kennedy when he reduced the top tax rate to 60%. Education R and D, health, defense, infrastructure are all expensive and you have to do them to have a top notch economy. We weren't also dumping 18% of the GNP into health care (as most of our competitors are not).
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:06 pm

Look up the effective tax rates, not the marginal rates to ge5 a more accurate picture. The rates might have been north of 70%, but the actual federal revenue as a percent of GDP,was about the same as today. Lots of company cars, golf club memberships, etc were charged as business expenses. The Revenue Act of 1964 dropped top rates from 91% to 79% and corporate rates from 52% to 48%.

From CBO

The Congressional Budget Office analyzed the reasons for healthcare cost inflation over time, reporting in 2008 that: "Although many factors contributed to the growth, most analysts have concluded that the bulk of the long-term rise resulted from the health care system's use of new medical services that were made possible by technological advances..." In summarizing several studies, CBO reported the following drove the indicated share of the increase (shown as a range across three studies) from 1940 to 1990:

Technology changes: 38-65%. CBO defined this as "any changes in clinical practice that enhance the ability of providers to diagnose, treat, or prevent health problems."
Personal income growth: 5-23%. Persons with more income tend to spend a greater share of it on healthcare.
Administrative costs: 3-13%.
Aging of the population: 2%. As the country ages, more persons require more expensive treatments, as the aged tend to be sicker.[59]


https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files ... health.pdf
 
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:29 am

To compare, here is how USSR handled smallpox outbreak in Moscow:
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 1950-h.htm


Smallpox: How did you stop the deadly epidemic in the 1950s?

In the early morning at the very end of December 1959, a plane landed at the Vnukovo airport with the famous artist Alexei Kokorekin. The artist flew in from India a day earlier than planned, passed border and customs control and drove home to his mistress. He coughed a little, but who would you surprise by coughing in December Moscow?

Giving gifts from warm exotic countries to his passion, the next day he finally got to his family, hugged his family, celebrated his arrival and also gave out gifts. The cough intensified, the temperature rose and he went to the doctors.

They hospitalized him almost immediately - he literally felt worse before his eyes. And by the evening he died. The autopsy pathologist invited Academician N. A. Kraevsky, head of the department, to the sectional hall. By a lucky coincidence, an old pathologist from Leningrad came to visit Nikolai Alexandrovich, he was invited to a section table. The old man looked at the corpse and said - "Yes, my friend, variola vera - smallpox" ...

By that time, even the doctors had almost forgotten about the existence of a terrible disease that mowed down cities and countries in the Middle Ages in our country. In the USSR, the disease was overcome by universal vaccination in 1936. Doctors did not even think that it could return, and stopped taking it into account.

But not in India, where he was visited by a famous Soviet artist, twice the Stalin Prize winner Alexei Kokorekin. It was there, in one of the Indian provinces, at the ceremony of burning the Brahmin who died of smallpox, the artist caught a terrible infection.

The seriousness of the events became clear already on the second day: the virus was diagnosed by an employee of the hospital reception, who received the artist, examining his doctor and even a teenager, who was in the same hospital a floor below, right at the ventilation hole from the Kokorekin ward. The hospital stoker picked up smallpox, just walking past the ward.

Two weeks later, in already 1960, some patients of the Botkin Hospital appeared the same as Kokorekin: fever, cough and rash. Material taken from the skin of one of the patients was sent to the Research Institute of Vaccines and Serums. On January 15, 1960, Academician Morozov revealed particles of variola virus in the material. The news was quickly reported to the country's top leadership.

It became clear that Moscow and the entire Soviet Union are one step away from an epidemic of a disease that is not being treated.

By the afternoon, at a meeting near Khrushchev, a set of urgent measures had been taken to prevent an epidemic of smallpox. The personnel of the Moscow police and the KGB were tasked with identifying as soon as possible all who the artist had contact with, starting from the moment he boarded the plane in India. At risk were passengers of the aircraft, its crew, customs officers, colleagues, friends, relatives.

The investigation even established that before returning home, Kokorekin spent a day with his mistress. The scope of work was enormous. It turned out that for several weeks the patient was in contact with several thousand people. It was almost impossible to identify everyone.

The KGB of the USSR, the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Ministry of Health established and isolated absolutely everyone who at least somehow intersected with the infected. One of the people who spent the evening with the patient was a teacher at the institute, where she took exams from numerous students - hundreds of people were immediately sent from the university to quarantine. Gifts brought from India for his wife and mistress through the commission on Shabolovka and Leninsky crawled around the city, but after a day all the visitors to the shops were installed, quarantined, and items from Indian fabrics were burned.

The central Botkin hospital is immediately under siege. Thousands of patients and attendants cannot leave its walls. Trucks with everything necessary leave the mobilization vaults of the State Reserve in the direction of Moscow. They managed to deploy a plane over Europe, which sent one of the passengers of the Cocorekin flight from Moscow to Paris.

Moscow, which had just celebrated the New Year, was actually completely closed under the laws of wartime. It was neither possible to enter nor leave it: the flights were canceled, the railway connection was interrupted, roads were blocked. Day and night, medical teams drove to addresses, hospitalizing more and more likely carriers of infection.

In the infectious diseases hospitals, more and more quarantine beds were placed, and in a week about 10 thousand people were already under the supervision of doctors. The thread to which began only with one passenger of the Delhi-Moscow flight.

At the same time, the second phase of the operation to combat a possible epidemic was launched - an urgent vaccination of the population. Within 3 days, 10 million doses of anti-fowl vaccine were delivered by air from the Tomsk, Tashkent Vaccine and Serum Institutes and the Krasnodar Territory Sanitary and Epidemiological Station to the Moscow City Sanitary and Epidemiological Station. And medical workers of absolutely all enterprises and institutions of the city pricked his Muscovites and guests of the capital.

RESULTS: A total of 19 people were infected from Kokorekin during this outbreak in Moscow (7 relatives, 9 staff and 3 patients in the hospital, to which he was hospitalized with unrecognized smallpox). Another 23 people were infected from them, and three more from the latter. 3 out of 46 infected have died.

In 1960, all 7 million residents of Moscow were vaccinated. Inoculated, including the dying. Each week, 1.5 million people were injected, and 10 thousand vaccination teams were vaccinated, which in addition to doctors and paramedics included students of medical schools. After a month, the outbreak of smallpox was able to repay.

 
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Aesma
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:16 am

VSMUT wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Can't tell if you are serious or not, but to be clear: let's not. The Versailles treaty was one of the reasons WWII started.


It was well within their means to prevent, then control the outbreak. They deserve to foot the bill for this mess.


Next we will sanction countries according to their contribution to global warming, are you down for that ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
anrec80
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:21 am

VSMUT wrote:
But that having been said, I feel we should mark the 100th anniversary of the Versailles treaty by imposing similar crippling reparations on China. Punish them for letting it spin out of control. Confiscate their industry and merchant fleets. Make them pay for the damages. Make sure no one will ever dare repeat the mistakes they made.


So who is supposed to punish whom here? Is it that the EU is supposed to punish China? Lately the EU is being “punished” on regular basis by everyone who feels like any way possible. And EU just gladly allocates their taxpayers money. And you are talking about punishing China.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:59 am

I'm sure there's a bit of arrogance and a lot of unpreparedness, but there's also the fact that this outbreak is rather unprecedented in the West for almost anyone alive today.

Humans never learn from history, especially the history from before they were alive, and no one really ever listen to scientists until it's too late and they desperately need them.

On the other hand, shutting down borders, entire sectors of industry, schools, shutting down the economy, causing the failure of countless businesses, putting millions of people out of a job, creating poverty and an almost unprecedented financial crisis along with economically setting countries back years to fight a disease we don't know much about is not an easy decision...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:01 am

I would have to say for stupidity exacerbated by greed.
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1989worstyear
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:03 am

The West's arrogance is clear, but what is with all of you PRC apologists?
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:05 am

Aesma wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Can't tell if you are serious or not, but to be clear: let's not. The Versailles treaty was one of the reasons WWII started.


It was well within their means to prevent, then control the outbreak. They deserve to foot the bill for this mess.


Next we will sanction countries according to their contribution to global warming, are you down for that ?


Why not - both are destructive on a global scale.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:06 am

1989worstyear wrote:
The West's arrogance is clear, but what is with all of you PRC apologists?


A good question.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
anrec80
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:50 am

1989worstyear wrote:
Aesma wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

It was well within their means to prevent, then control the outbreak. They deserve to foot the bill for this mess.


Next we will sanction countries according to their contribution to global warming, are you down for that ?


Why not - both are destructive on a global scale.


But then other nations will simply ignore your sanctions and trade more among themselves. And your sanctions will end up being sanctions against yourselves.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:34 am

Tell me again how the US is so much better at dealing with this : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features ... in-seattle

Did the US contain this in January ? Is it contained now ? How come ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:39 am

Aesma wrote:
Tell me again how the US is so much better at dealing with this : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features ... in-seattle

Did the US contain this in January ? Is it contained now ? How come ?


Many of us aren't denying the US screwed this thing up, but it can't be used in deflecting any blame from China. SARS did not start in NY, remember.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
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seb146
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:52 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
seb146 wrote:
The MAGA crew are making this about race. Why everything gotta be about race with you people? The "woke crowd" see people getting infected. The "woke crowd" is trying to travel less and avoid people. The MAGA crew are out there fearing Asian people. Since you want to make this a race thing.


Americans cannot live without Chinese. Three words. Toasters, Babies, and Takeout.


Even an Asian American clearing their throat can make the uninformed go running

https://abcnews.go.com/US/backlash-asia ... d=69556008

Usually (not always) those uninformed are MAGA fans.

It was multi-national corporations that decided to build all those factories in China. They could have built here where we have plenty of closed factories but they did not want to pay $10 an hour (or more) to the workers.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Derico
Topic Author
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:31 am

Thanks for the replies, and I'm glad it wasn't seen as an attack. Here is yet a similar article but in German:

https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/plus206 ... .206580269

Basically the same thing: unprepared government and the segments of the population who cannot abide by "soft" restrictions, so far more draconian measures must be put in place thanks to those undisciplined, individualistic ones.

Of course, no government can prepare for worst-case scenario because it doesn't make budget sense.

I would take issue with the recurring comments that the West is not a dictatorship so people just cannot be told from top down what to do. Clearly the focus of such a comment is Mainland China. But Korea, Taiwan are democracies. Are they exactly like western democracies? No, but the differences are more cultural than administrative. Korea and Taiwan have succeeded in getting the hands on the virus' proverbial throat, they have not defeated it but they are immobilizing it.

I have never been in a military, but many here have served in their countries forces. No need to tell you that the reason good armies are so efficient is that there is top-down command and control. Rigid and clear ranks. Units in the battlefield are not each making their own decisions on how to engage the enemy. It is all commanded from the top.

I think many people have raged on "big government" for so long that it morphed into "any government" is not good concept. In peacetime, giving local communities large levels of control may indeed be best (and I believe this). But in a war, natural disaster, or pandemic, a strong central government is paramount. That in fact is one of the major reasons big government should and must exist. Many countries are also paying the price for an ideology of anti-government that became a borderline cult. And the results are plain: complete disarray, chaos, confusion, and inconsistency in the measures, guidelines, and policies. I absolutely believe this has directly exacerbated the "panic".

Finally, I'm no doctor, but I have always believed that when it comes to "draconian" measures, you go big or go home. My rule of thumb is that when it comes to unpopular measures that you have decided WILL work, you take them all at once but only after you have some plan behind the measures to mitigate the damage they will cause.
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tommy1808
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:53 am

Derico wrote:
But Korea, Taiwan are democracies. Are they exactly like western democracies? No, but the differences are more cultural than administrative. Korea and Taiwan have succeeded in getting the hands on the virus' proverbial throat, they have not defeated it but they are immobilizing it. .


They also practice inherently more social distancing, less hand shaking and such...

1989worstyear wrote:
The West's arrogance is clear, but what is with all of you PRC apologists?


I am about the last person on this forum to be an PRC apologist, but this is still bullshit. Any virus present in the wild that can infect humans will at some point do so, and not even the most hygienic western country tests food items for unknown viruses.....

StuckinCMHland wrote:
1. We have western leaders and governments talking every day about this; when Xi and his people were in the same position they hid when the virus was going around China and only China?
2. Not only did the Chinese lie, they continue to lie about the number of people who are and died. We will never know the truth..


has the "leader of the free world" already stopped doing the exact same thing or or is he still at it? He just a week or so ago wanted to let Americans die on a cruise ship, because letting them off would make the numbers look bad. ....

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
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DL717
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:15 am

Aesma wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Can't tell if you are serious or not, but to be clear: let's not. The Versailles treaty was one of the reasons WWII started.


It was well within their means to prevent, then control the outbreak. They deserve to foot the bill for this mess.


Next we will sanction countries according to their contribution to global warming, are you down for that ?


China will be at the top of the list.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:31 am

DL717 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

It was well within their means to prevent, then control the outbreak. They deserve to foot the bill for this mess.


Next we will sanction countries according to their contribution to global warming, are you down for that ?


China will be at the top of the list.


China is meeting its Copenhagen goals, even before Corona, and on track to keep its Paris goals years early. So i don´t think so.

China is at 6t CO2 per Capita, the US is at 17t CO2 per Capita. I really don´t think so......

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
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DL717
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:42 am

tommy1808 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Next we will sanction countries according to their contribution to global warming, are you down for that ?


China will be at the top of the list.


China is meeting its Copenhagen goals, even before Corona, and on track to keep its Paris goals years early. So i don´t think so.

China is at 6t CO2 per Capita, the US is at 17t CO2 per Capita. I really don´t think so......

best regards
Thomas


So twice that of the US then.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:46 am

DL717 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
DL717 wrote:

China will be at the top of the list.


China is meeting its Copenhagen goals, even before Corona, and on track to keep its Paris goals years early. So i don´t think so.

China is at 6t CO2 per Capita, the US is at 17t CO2 per Capita. I really don´t think so......

best regards
Thomas


So twice that of the US then.


no, 1/3... a Chines prisoner has the exact same CO2 allowance than a US citizen.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
Derico
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:46 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Derico wrote:
But Korea, Taiwan are democracies. Are they exactly like western democracies? No, but the differences are more cultural than administrative. Korea and Taiwan have succeeded in getting the hands on the virus' proverbial throat, they have not defeated it but they are immobilizing it. .


They also practice inherently more social distancing, less hand shaking and such...


Thomas


That is true. Is this that hard to not shake hands, not kiss strangers in greeting, and keep 1.5 meters from people though?
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:49 am

Derico wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Derico wrote:
But Korea, Taiwan are democracies. Are they exactly like western democracies? No, but the differences are more cultural than administrative. Korea and Taiwan have succeeded in getting the hands on the virus' proverbial throat, they have not defeated it but they are immobilizing it. .


They also practice inherently more social distancing, less hand shaking and such...


Thomas


That is true. Is this that hard to not shake hands, not kiss strangers in greeting, and keep 1.5 meters from people though?


not quite, but personal space is larger that around here. Plus of course that the average Taiwanese, and i assume south Korean too, puts on a mask pretty much automatically when they do as much as sneeze.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
Derico
Topic Author
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:54 am

Right, which is what I was going to add to. There are times when there are only two people at night in the sidewalk, me and a stranger. And the stranger will literally be breathing down my neck in a way I would be ready to defend my life in the West, but here I just know is them not realizing the difference in personal space size.

But you would think then a respiratory illness would much more easily propagate in some of these countries that are keeping a lid on it. That and the far more massive use of public transport and generally more crowded conditions, and the still somewhat common use of non-disposable chopsticks. So if they can do it, surely Europe can ,no?
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ltbewr
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:02 pm

The arrogance of 'it can't happen here' as to a pandemic has been shattered around the world and yes, it includes the PRC.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:43 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
China is meeting its Copenhagen goals, even before Corona, and on track to keep its Paris goals years early. So i don´t think so.

best regards
Thomas


All that technology must be helping to filter out incinerator exhaust, so no other country can measure.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is the developed western world paying the price for arrogance?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:55 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
China is meeting its Copenhagen goals, even before Corona, and on track to keep its Paris goals years early. So i don´t think so.

best regards
Thomas


All that technology must be helping to filter out incinerator exhaust, so no other country can measure.


incinerator exhaust?

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero

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