Hi All,

Let's start by declaring this post and thread to not be xenophobic or anti-Chinese.

It is clear that the impact on the global economy due to COVID-19 is going to be huge. We have not seen anything as impactful to the global since WW2. Many companies are going to go bankrupt, especially airlines, and millions of people are going to be unemployed. The impact on the middle class (key consumer spenders) is going to be huge - it will severely eliminate them. As a result, national debt is going to rise to levels we haven't seen - as countries (already in huge amounts of debt) borrow more to save businesses and stimulate consumer spending.

The source of all this - is a virus that originated in China due to the regional government in Hubei not enforcing rules about keeping animals and humans in close contact. Essentially the virus transferred to humans and they knew this for some time before advising the WHO and international community. Given this, how should China be held liable for this, and should they? It is my opinion that they should be giving out interest-free loans to governments to keep their countries going.

I can't help but think that if the US was the source of the virus, people would be up in arms and demanding compensation from the US.

Let's discuss.

Yes, absolutely. They knew that their wet markets were a problem. Several epidemics have originated from these disgusting Chinese habits, and they still haven't done anything to prevent it. China is entirely responsible for the damages, and must pay the compensation.

Simple answer - No.
Reparations will just make things worse in terms of trade, economics and political relations. Recall the mistakes of them with Germany after WW I, the economic disaster from it and leading to Nazism and WW II. Besides, the PRC would refuse to pay them and could trigger a war no one would win. We also need their scientific and medical cooperation to deal with such international crises, not harden against each other, keep trade open and encourage major reforms in public health there and elsewhere.
Yes we all want to find someone to blame, the 'other', to hurt them, that sadly is human nature but we must resist that for the good of all.

Yes. Or just forgive any debt owed to them.

Completely illogical. The slippery slope of reparations for this that and the other has never gone anywhere because everyone with a border has a grievance. If you’re going down this road with China, then I want to do same with Saudi for the post-1980s resurgence of Islamism.

ltbewr wrote:

Simple answer - No.
Reparations will just make things worse in terms of trade, economics and political relations. Recall the mistakes of them with Germany after WW I, the economic disaster from it and leading to Nazism and WW II. Besides, the PRC would refuse to pay them and could trigger a war no one would win. We also need their scientific and medical cooperation to deal with such international crises, not harden against each other, keep trade open and encourage major reforms in public health there and elsewhere.
Yes we all want to find someone to blame, the 'other', to hurt them, that sadly is human nature but we must resist that for the good of all.

I would have agreed if they hadn't mislead everyone for a month and then tried to spread propaganda and claim the US sent the virus to China. Accidents happen and if China had come clean and let the rest of the world help them when it first happened we wouldn't be in this mess.

TTailedTiger wrote:

ltbewr wrote:

Simple answer - No.
Reparations will just make things worse in terms of trade, economics and political relations. Recall the mistakes of them with Germany after WW I, the economic disaster from it and leading to Nazism and WW II. Besides, the PRC would refuse to pay them and could trigger a war no one would win. We also need their scientific and medical cooperation to deal with such international crises, not harden against each other, keep trade open and encourage major reforms in public health there and elsewhere.
Yes we all want to find someone to blame, the 'other', to hurt them, that sadly is human nature but we must resist that for the good of all.

I would have agreed if they hadn't mislead everyone for a month and then tried to spread propaganda and claim the US sent the virus to China. Accidents happen and if China had come clean and let the rest of the world help them when it first happened we wouldn't be in this mess.

I find it impossible to agree because they shared genomic and epidemiological information in the usual science publishing channels as soon as they had data available. That’s a completely different outcome from the CCP suppressing internet and domestic reporting to maintain control over narrative and perception of crisis handling. Looking at the PRC requires more than a dab of nuance.

Lets face it, China wont ever admit this originated in China, much less pay reparations for the almost (not there yet) collapse of the worlds economy.

The realistic way is to boycott China, sanction the hell out of them and anyone making business with them, till they apologize and promise to clean their country before they wish to be a player in the world. Thats the realistic way, and as we can see on the liberals responding on this thread it will need Trump to do this since no Democrat will have the balls to do it.

Dude where do you even get such a sense of entitlement from?
Did china ever sign any treaty which would make them liable to pay? If no, then there's no question at all.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Lets face it, China wont ever admit this originated in China, much less pay reparations for the almost (not there yet) collapse of the worlds economy.

The realistic way is to boycott China, sanction the hell out of them and anyone making business with them, till they apologize and promise to clean their country before they wish to be a player in the world. Thats the realistic way, and as we can see on the liberals responding on this thread it will need Trump to do this since no Democrat will have the balls to do it.

You really think US can sanction China?

Normally I would say yes but good luck with that...What we need to do is start putting pressure on our businesses to get out of China our at least past 4 administrations have allowed China to become a major player in trade now China has us by the short hairs because they control critical items in our supply chain. It may be too late but it should be a lesson learned to never let any country let alone China have such control over our supply chain.

What ever happened to the concepts of accidents or bad luck?

Why does everything have to be about money?

The concept of damages comes from the basis that the 'offender' did something to ACTIVELY cause harm. it has grown to the point that some people want to sue the parents of a criminal for not raising their child right.

"Disgusting Chinese habits"?

I can tell you of a lot of nations which have traditions and habits that I find disgusting. Like ALL OF THEM.

--------------------------------------

Did China actively seek to cause world wide disruptions by facilitating the spread of the virus?

Or did China actively seek to minimize the risk, the severity, to keep from economic issues, and perceptions issues which might cause further loss of tourism and more economic disruption?

If you answer yes to the second question, then you need to add a long list of other countries who did, or are doing the same thing.

I'm not going to say the US ban on visitors from Europe is sensible, but it is justified if you agree that China bears responsibility for the virus spreading.

First and foremost, the duty of any national government is to protect its citizens/ residents.

------------------------------------

Can you put an exact figure on the damage the protective measures have caused you?

For us in the southern US, so far it is close to $7.34. Because I had to change a reservation for our RV.

Inconvenience? Sure

Damages for inconvenience? Give me break.

You owe me $250 for getting my blood pressure higher and shortening my life span.

No reparations. However, an apology from the Chinese government would be nice!

rfields5421 wrote:

"Disgusting Chinese habits"?

I can tell you of a lot of nations which have traditions and habits that I find disgusting. Like ALL OF THEM.

Like raising chicken in an environment so nasty that only chlornating can make them safe for human consumption...... Also propably a waiting-to-happen virus ....

Best regards
Thomas

stratosphere wrote:

Normally I would say yes but good luck with that...What we need to do is start putting pressure on our businesses to get out of China our at least past 4 administrations have allowed China to become a major player in trade now China has us by the short hairs because they control critical items in our supply chain. It may be too late but it should be a lesson learned to never let any country let alone China have such control over our supply chain.

Agreed. It's especially concerning that our pharmaceutical drugs are manufactured in China. That needs to come to a stop as soon as possible and source them elsewhere.

B777 wrote:

No reparations. However, an apology from the Chinese government would be nice!

An apology doesn't put food on the table of an unemployed family.

Hit them with debilitating sanctions if they don't cooperate with crushing reparations.

The American woke media is appalled that Trump is calling this a Chinese virus. I know that wokeness is about denying the truth or saying something is not what it is, but so far we Americans are frustrated how the woke elite is apologizing for China.

tommy1808 wrote:

rfields5421 wrote:

"Disgusting Chinese habits"?

I can tell you of a lot of nations which have traditions and habits that I find disgusting. Like ALL OF THEM.

Like raising chicken in an environment so nasty that only chlornating can make them safe for human consumption...... Also propably a waiting-to-happen virus ....

Best regards
Thomas

One question that needs to be asked is: what was done, if anything, after the first SARS outbreak?

If more scientific evidence comes to light that this current situation did arise from the unregulated exotic meat trade, then China deserves this criticism at the very least.

I agree with the other posters - foreign companies need to start extracting their supply chain and other activities from the country to get anyone to listen. Sadly, money is all that matters these days...

AirWorthy99 wrote:

The American woke media is appalled that Trump is calling this a Chinese virus. I know that wokeness is about denying the truth or saying something is not what it is, but so far we Americans are frustrated how the woke elite is apologizing for China.

It's not "woke" or or an apologizing or anything like that, it is just Trump being his normal self, name calling and wanting to get a rise of others. The MAGA's out there love that sh!t, and he lives for that, the "admiration" they give him. He is just further demonstrating that he is and continues to be a poor president. Nothing more, nothing "woke".

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

The American woke media is appalled that Trump is calling this a Chinese virus. I know that wokeness is about denying the truth or saying something is not what it is, but so far we Americans are frustrated how the woke elite is apologizing for China.

It's not "woke" or or an apologizing or anything like that, it is just Trump being his normal self, name calling and wanting to get a rise of others. The MAGA's out there love that sh!t, and he lives for that, the "admiration" they give him. He is just further demonstrating that he is and continues to be a poor president. Nothing more, nothing "woke".

Tugg

What's wrong with calling it the Wuhan Virus? Lyme disease is named after Lyme Connecticut. Ebola was named after the river in the Congo. Spanish Flue, etc. Why does China get treated with white gloves?

No reparations.

Biological warfare will never be litigated.

The best outcome is that other countries, such as the USA, stand up their own industries to manufacture their own pharmaceuticals, medical equipment, and repatriate that work. I'm done funding the ChiComs. And the silver lining to this whole shitty virus is that the world is realizing it.

TTailedTiger wrote:

Tugger wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

The American woke media is appalled that Trump is calling this a Chinese virus. I know that wokeness is about denying the truth or saying something is not what it is, but so far we Americans are frustrated how the woke elite is apologizing for China.

It's not "woke" or or an apologizing or anything like that, it is just Trump being his normal self, name calling and wanting to get a rise of others. The MAGA's out there love that sh!t, and he lives for that, the "admiration" they give him. He is just further demonstrating that he is and continues to be a poor president. Nothing more, nothing "woke".

Tugg

What's wrong with calling it the Wuhan Virus? Lyme disease is named after Lyme Connecticut. Ebola was named after the river in the Congo. Spanish Flue, etc. Why does China get treated with white gloves?

He's not calling it "Wuhan Virus".

Also, what white gloves? My comment is to WHY he does that, I am not saying a virus (including this one) can't be named after a location.

Tugg

TTailedTiger wrote:

[
What's wrong with calling it the Wuhan Virus? Lyme disease is named after Lyme Connecticut. Ebola was named after the river in the Congo. Spanish Flue, etc. Why does China get treated with white gloves?

Because China bought the Director-General of WHO, who gets to name these things. That's why.

Pretty interesting that several posters who have spent considerable time blasting Trump for causing death and mayhem are so quick to absolve China. If trump spent a full month denying the virus was plaguing a major region, allowing it to spread around the world, it is guaranteed everybody would be out for blood and money in the US courts. If any individual or corporation were so negligent, they would be sued into oblivion - and rightfully so.
So why not the Chinese government? I believe we will see this, a class action as we see against the Saudi government for their involvement in 9/11. There is no question, we will see lawsuits. BIG ones.

Tugger wrote:

He's not calling it "Wuhan Virus".

Also, what white gloves? My comment is to WHY he does that, I am not saying a virus (including this one) can't be named after a location.

Tugg

Don't you think it might be a reaction to China's well-documented propaganda campaign going on as we write? I recommend you look into that.

mham001 wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

[
What's wrong with calling it the Wuhan Virus? Lyme disease is named after Lyme Connecticut. Ebola was named after the river in the Congo. Spanish Flue, etc. Why does China get treated with white gloves?

Because China bought the Director-General of WHO, who gets to name these things. That's why.

Pretty interesting that several posters who have spent considerable time blasting Trump for causing death and mayhem are so quick to absolve China. If trump spent a full month denying the virus was plaguing a major region, allowing it to spread around the world, it is guaranteed everybody would be out for blood and money in the US courts. If any individual or corporation were so negligent, they would be sued into oblivion - and rightfully so.
So why not the Chinese government? I believe we will see this, a class action as we see against the Saudi government for their involvement in 9/11. There is no question, we will see lawsuits. BIG ones.

Look, politics aside. This Wuhan virus may very well cause the Great Depression 2, if the world is going to get paralized for 12 to 18 months which is the time for a vaccine, we might be for the long run on huge economic loss for the entire world, thats the best scenario if this goes on for 18 months, worse scenario is the total collapse of capitalism as we know it.

Governments cant borrow and spend their way out of this if it goes 18 months.

China might very well be the sole culprit for this, no one else.

So lets pray for a 2 to 3 months crisis.

[

rfields5421 wrote:

Can you put an exact figure on the damage the protective measures have caused you?

For us in the southern US, so far it is close to $7.34. Because I had to change a reservation for our RV.

Inconvenience? Sure

Damages for inconvenience? Give me break.

You owe me $250 for getting my blood pressure higher and shortening my life span.

This post identifies a lack of critical thinking skills. Loss of wages and death to start. I personally will (probably) see hundreds of thousand$ in real estate losses on a house currently for sale. if people can't leave their houses, they can't shop for new ones. fewer/no buyers, fewer/no offers and prices decline. it's that simple.

So the "it's a Democrat hoax spread by the liberal media" crowd is now blaming China for not warning you about the virus. Why aren't you blaming FoxNews? They misled you more than China

mham001 wrote:

Tugger wrote:

He's not calling it "Wuhan Virus".

Also, what white gloves? My comment is to WHY he does that, I am not saying a virus (including this one) can't be named after a location.

Tugg

Don't you think it might be a reaction to China's well-documented propaganda campaign going on as we write? I recommend you look into that.

And...? That makes it any better or more accurate? That makes it more a statement made by the most informed and what some consider the most powerful person in the world?

And I have "looked into that".

Tugg

drew777 wrote:

So the "it's a Democrat hoax spread by the liberal media" crowd is now blaming China for not warning you about the virus. Why aren't you blaming FoxNews? They misled you more than China

Is Fox pushing the Chinese propaganda that the US sent the virus to Wuhan?

drew777 wrote:

So the "it's a Democrat hoax spread by the liberal media" crowd is now blaming China for not warning you about the virus. Why aren't you blaming FoxNews? They misled you more than China

Yea, once again, he said the Democrats claim that he was not doing anything about it was the "hoax". When you can get that straight, you will have passed a milestone in your life, I'm sure.

And I don't watch FOX news, in fact, relatively few people do. why do you if you believe them evil?

I’m boycotting by not ordering General Tso chicken anymore, however I will order the sesame chicken as it’s very tasty

mham001 wrote:

drew777 wrote:

So the "it's a Democrat hoax spread by the liberal media" crowd is now blaming China for not warning you about the virus. Why aren't you blaming FoxNews? They misled you more than China

Yea, once again, he said the Democrats claim that he was not doing anything about it was the "hoax". When you can get that straight, you will have passed a milestone in your life, I'm sure.

And I don't watch FOX news, in fact, relatively few people do. why do you if you believe them evil?

I was not referring to Trump. His apologist fan club was very much so calling the virus scare a hoax. Now I see they are looking for someone or something to blame for that ignorant opinion. Blame China all you want for the disease but you can't blame them for your refusal to believe it is real.

Anyways I'll exit the echo chamber. Just wanted you all to know you aren't fooling anyone.

mham001 wrote:

Loss of wages

Lost wages is specific and quantifiable, but almost never recoverable. My granddaughter will never be repaid for the six days she was forced to stay home with no pay over the past week.

mham001 wrote:

and death

Death is not a quantifiable loss. Maybe the costs of preparing the deceased and final placement of the remains.

EVERYONE will die. And in my personal experience, almost everyone will die at a time that is very unfortunate and inconvenient to survivors. I've spent more thousands of dollars traveling to funerals and spending MONTHS sitting with dying relatives in the final agony than I could possibly count. Last summer it was about $25,000 USD unplanned or budgeted, sitting in hospitals with my youngest brother. To my great joy he survived and was able to return home, with diminished physical and mental capacity, but my baby brother is alive today.

But there are no guarantees. If direct deliberate action causes a death, there are formulas used to assess the economic impact upon the survivors, especially minor children with no ability to survive independently.

So far I've seen nothing that even attempts to provide evidence this illness was created or distributed purposely.

mham001 wrote:

I personally will (probably) see hundreds of thousand$ in real estate losses on a house currently for sale. if people can't leave their houses, they can't shop for new ones. fewer/no buyers, fewer/no offers and prices decline. it's that simple.

You need some lessons in economics and investing. Your home has ZERO VALUE beyond what people are willing to pay at the moment you sell it. If you feel that you cannot afford to "lose" that much, don't sell. Now job transfers, family issues, have caused me to decide selling a home at less of a price than I wanted was necessary.

But it is a CHOICE. As with any investment, there is always a risk of having to sell for less than you paid for an item.

And if you are unwilling to take the risk of that happening, then you should not buy a home in the first place.

Another practicality, which I do think is very unfair, but will never change.

I get several things each year that I am in the settlement group of some 'injustice'.

Be it from Apple for slowing down my old phone, Yahoo for compromising the security of my personal data a couple decades ago, etc. I've even got one for cost related to injuries I received on Oct 23, 1983 in Beirut Lebanon as part of a claim against the government of Iran.

When I read all the fine print, the reality is that I get no real spendable cash in my hands.

Maybe some 'services' for free.

But law firms get millions, maybe hundreds of millions of dollars CASH. Now they spent a lot of time, money and took a huge risk of getting nothing, but the investment paid off for them.

Look at all the billions of dollars in settlements and compensation for the lives destroyed by oxycontin and such. Do the victims or families get any money? Haven't seen where any will actual receive cash.
But a lot of US state governments have received millions of dollars which they can spend without public input or accountability.

If China were to "Pay", almost none of the money would end up in you, or my, hands.

rfields5421 wrote:

mham001 wrote:

Loss of wages

Lost wages is specific and quantifiable, but almost never recoverable..

huh? it most certainly is in US courts. The only reason your grandaughter wouldn't recover damages is because recovery costs more than the damage.

rfields5421 wrote:

mham001 wrote:

and death

Death is not a quantifiable loss. Maybe the costs of preparing the deceased and final placement of the remains.

EVERYONE will die. And in my personal experience, almost everyone will die at a time that is very unfortunate and inconvenient to survivors. I've spent more thousands of dollars traveling to funerals and spending MONTHS sitting with dying relatives in the final agony than I could possibly count. Last summer it was about $25,000 USD unplanned or budgeted, sitting in hospitals with my youngest brother. To my great joy he survived and was able to return home, with diminished physical and mental capacity, but my baby brother is alive today.

But there are no guarantees. If direct deliberate action causes a death, there are formulas used to assess the economic impact upon the survivors, especially minor children with no ability to survive independently.

So far I've seen nothing that even attempts to provide evidence this illness was created or distributed purposely.

China's willfully and knowingly covering and denying for a month, during which time it spread out of control was grossly negligent and has now caused mayhem around the world.

rfields5421 wrote:

mham001 wrote:

I personally will (probably) see hundreds of thousand$ in real estate losses on a house currently for sale. if people can't leave their houses, they can't shop for new ones. fewer/no buyers, fewer/no offers and prices decline. it's that simple.

You need some lessons in economics and investing. Your home has ZERO VALUE beyond what people are willing to pay at the moment you sell it. If you feel that you cannot afford to "lose" that much, don't sell. Now job transfers, family issues, have caused me to decide selling a home at less of a price than I wanted was necessary.

But it is a CHOICE. As with any investment, there is always a risk of having to sell for less than you paid for an item.

And if you are unwilling to take the risk of that happening, then you should not buy a home in the first place.

Another practicality, which I do think is very unfair, but will never change.

I get several things each year that I am in the settlement group of some 'injustice'.

Be it from Apple for slowing down my old phone, Yahoo for compromising the security of my personal data a couple decades ago, etc. I've even got one for cost related to injuries I received on Oct 23, 1983 in Beirut Lebanon as part of a claim against the government of Iran.

When I read all the fine print, the reality is that I get no real spendable cash in my hands.

Maybe some 'services' for free.

But law firms get millions, maybe hundreds of millions of dollars CASH. Now they spent a lot of time, money and took a huge risk of getting nothing, but the investment paid off for them.

Look at all the billions of dollars in settlements and compensation for the lives destroyed by oxycontin and such. Do the victims or families get any money? Haven't seen where any will actual receive cash.
But a lot of US state governments have received millions of dollars which they can spend without public input or accountability.

If China were to "Pay", almost none of the money would end up in you, or my, hands.

I am not going to get into how a shelter-in-place for a pandemic affects home sales and values but are you really saying you believe the current legal proceedings against the Saudi government (for death) are unwarranted?

This is a natural disaster. Not one of China's makings. There will be no reparations despite what right wing racist folks think.

casinterest wrote:

This is a natural disaster. Not one of China's makings. There will be no reparations despite what right wing racist folks think.

I don't think they are racist (and am positive they don't and would never see themselves as such) and don't recognize how this could be considered that (and they will fight that label flabbergasted and/or disgusted with you going "there"). I really think they are just overly political and can't get around the TDS of having to blame this terrible country that is the bane of all troubles (taking our jobs, our technology, our money, and trying to take our crown). The ridiculous allowance of all of China's gross trade and human rights failures and flaws did need to be addressed so I don't really disagree with a lot of the penalties that have been put in place, but that isn't to me really political but many try to make it that "only one man could do it" and will defend everything about that man. Even making stupid statements and of course echoing his statements.

It is exactly like (OK not exactly but very similar) to blaming "the media" for everything. It is important to be able to point fingers and try to score political points with your base.

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

casinterest wrote:

This is a natural disaster. Not one of China's makings. There will be no reparations despite what right wing racist folks think.

I don't think they are racist (and am positive they don't and would never see themselves as such) and don't recognize how this could be considered that (and they will fight that label flabbergasted and/or disgusted with you going "there"). I really think they are just overly political and can't get around the TDS of having to blame this terrible country that is the bane of all troubles (taking our jobs, our technology, our money, and trying to take our crown). The ridiculous allowance of all of China's gross trade and human rights failures and flaws did need to be addressed so I don't really disagree with a lot of the penalties that have been put in place, but that isn't to me really political but many try to make it that "only one man could do it" and will defend everything about that man. Even making stupid statements and of course echoing his statements.

It is exactly like (OK not exactly but very similar) to blaming "the media" for everything. It is important to be able to point fingers and try to score political points with your base.

Tugg

The folks that think that it is important to score political points with the base are what got us into this. The Right wing dragged their feet until they realized they held a commanding majority in the at-risk population,

Yes, even if this is not a designer virus (because it would be dumb not to have developed a vaccine to go with it) China should pay

For letting it spread unnecessarily,
For playing the victim card, no one cares about the name, is the name the burning issue?
And for blaming Europe and the US that they are not able to clamp down civilian life soon enough.

I'm not seeing the racism here. To what degree China is in the wrong is debatable, but they did a piss poor job at preventing yet another virus from the filthy conditions of some of their meat markets. Yes filthy*. No that's not racist

I hope, at the very least, China flexes their dictatorial muscles and shuts down these meat markets for good. Give out harsh, unfair penalties for anyone caught engaging in this behavior.

I don't even care if they admit anything or apologize, as long as they actually work at snuffing these markets out

*(Saw someone earlier say that every culture does something disgusting or whatever. Ok, how many of them lead to multiple global pandemics?)

AirWorthy99 wrote:

The American woke media is appalled that Trump is calling this a Chinese virus. I know that wokeness is about denying the truth or saying something is not what it is, but so far we Americans are frustrated how the woke elite is apologizing for China.

You are terming it a ‘woke’ issue when it’s just a reaction to stupidity and politicization of a public health issue. Viruses do not obey geographic limits and human designations of those limits don’t apply to virology, ever. Viruses reproduce by using the cells of any vector compatible with them, anywhere. They cannot be ‘Chinese’ or ‘foreign’ by definition. Nature doesn’t give two shits about petty human squabbles.

DeltaMD90 wrote:

I hope, at the very least, China flexes their dictatorial muscles and shuts down these meat markets for good. Give out harsh, unfair penalties for anyone caught engaging in this behavior.

I doubt it happening anytime soon, based on the limited information on the internet, it is the rich, elite and well connected eating these exotic animals. There are no credible sources to confirm or deny this information. In other countries, the poor may resort to unconventional meat sources.

Aaron747 wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

The American woke media is appalled that Trump is calling this a Chinese virus. I know that wokeness is about denying the truth or saying something is not what it is, but so far we Americans are frustrated how the woke elite is apologizing for China.

You are terming it a ‘woke’ issue when it’s just a reaction to stupidity and politicization of a public health issue. Viruses do not obey geographic limits and human designations of those limits don’t apply to virology, ever. Viruses reproduce by using the cells of any vector compatible with them, anywhere. They cannot be ‘Chinese’ or ‘foreign’ by definition. Nature doesn’t give two shits about petty human squabbles.

I am really sorry, its not going to fly. The damage that this has done is way past thinking this is a universal problem. We are talking about the imminent collapse of the world's economy here. People will die in the millions, lose their livelihoods. Obviously people are to blame someone for this, and everyone will point to China.

Don't know why you keep avoiding and apologizing for China. The normal American, and the rest of the world will point the blame to China, like it or not.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

The American woke media is appalled that Trump is calling this a Chinese virus. I know that wokeness is about denying the truth or saying something is not what it is, but so far we Americans are frustrated how the woke elite is apologizing for China.

You are terming it a ‘woke’ issue when it’s just a reaction to stupidity and politicization of a public health issue. Viruses do not obey geographic limits and human designations of those limits don’t apply to virology, ever. Viruses reproduce by using the cells of any vector compatible with them, anywhere. They cannot be ‘Chinese’ or ‘foreign’ by definition. Nature doesn’t give two shits about petty human squabbles.

I am really sorry, its not going to fly. The damage that this has done is way past thinking this is a universal problem. We are talking about the imminent collapse of the world's economy here. People will die in the millions, lose their livelihoods. Obviously people are to blame someone for this, and everyone will point to China.

Don't know why you keep avoiding and apologizing for China. The normal American, and the rest of the world will point the blame to China, like it or not.

You are also avoiding clear evidence of what was and wasn’t done in China. I am being realistic here, that’s why I’m not frothing at the mouth to assign blame and invent new definitions.

Aaron747 wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

The American woke media is appalled that Trump is calling this a Chinese virus. I know that wokeness is about denying the truth or saying something is not what it is, but so far we Americans are frustrated how the woke elite is apologizing for China.

You are terming it a ‘woke’ issue when it’s just a reaction to stupidity and politicization of a public health issue. Viruses do not obey geographic limits and human designations of those limits don’t apply to virology, ever. Viruses reproduce by using the cells of any vector compatible with them, anywhere. They cannot be ‘Chinese’ or ‘foreign’ by definition. Nature doesn’t give two shits about petty human squabbles.

I generally agree with you Aaron, but I really don't see the problem calling a virus originating from China / Wuhan as a Chinese virus / Wuhan flu / Kung Fu flu or whatever (the last is a joke, obviously.) Personally, I just call it the corona virus, it really doesn't matter IMO.

I don't think anyone is insinuating that the virus is stuck in China, I think it's pretty obvious it's not. If anything, it's a good reminder to pressure China to prevent these catastrophies from spawning up again

Aaron747 wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

You are also avoiding clear evidence of what was and wasn’t done in China. I am being realistic here, that’s why I’m not frothing at the mouth to assign blame and invent new definitions.

Come on, you been very vocal and critical of the administration handling of this. I must say with reason and justified (a lot of hindsight), but thankfully they are rectifying many things.

In any case, I am particularly shocked how limited you are into speaking negatively about them. If its because your name or your identity is known in this site, I understand, I also don't wish to get into trouble for my thinking here and perhaps affecting my livelihood.

Nothing shocking about it - strong emotion usually makes people take unreasonable positions and I am introducing some nuance. Simple as can be: if the PRC had nefarious intent, they would not have taken drastic domestic containment measures and would not have allowed researchers to share mountains of genomic and epidemiological data with the west.

The political dimensions of their control of image and public comment domestically were not surprising to any observers familiar with China.

There should be strong emotions, when you are changing drastically the lifestyles of millions of people. My children can't go back to school, despite one of them having some developmental issues and requires social interaction with other students. I am frustrated as millions of people are of this going on. In top of that we need to constantly worry about health, and the threat of catching this virus and falling horribly ill.

In top of that, the idea of suspending life indefinitely is a real problem, since we don't actually know when would this end.
The government should begin to actually think on a strategy that doesn't involve us wasting 12 to 18 months waiting for a vaccine. Trump and our other elected politicians should work on something that can return this country to normalcy.

Hell yes I am thinking on China, all the time.

DeltaMD90 wrote:

I'm not seeing the racism here. To what degree China is in the wrong is debatable, but they did a piss poor job at preventing yet another virus from the filthy conditions of some of their meat markets. Yes filthy*. No that's not racist

I hope, at the very least, China flexes their dictatorial muscles and shuts down these meat markets for good. Give out harsh, unfair penalties for anyone caught engaging in this behavior.

I don't even care if they admit anything or apologize, as long as they actually work at snuffing these markets out

*(Saw someone earlier say that every culture does something disgusting or whatever. Ok, how many of them lead to multiple global pandemics?)

Filthy?

As opposed to what? There are far worse markets out there?
Who is to say the virus actually originated there? Perhaps it originated elsewhere, but only became a problem in China because they actually cared enought to investigate what was putting all the people in the hospital with Pneumonia.

There are far too many racist rants going on about china, and the start of this thread is just the fruit of that unkind and unjust labor.

casinterest wrote:

DeltaMD90 wrote:

I'm not seeing the racism here. To what degree China is in the wrong is debatable, but they did a piss poor job at preventing yet another virus from the filthy conditions of some of their meat markets. Yes filthy*. No that's not racist

I hope, at the very least, China flexes their dictatorial muscles and shuts down these meat markets for good. Give out harsh, unfair penalties for anyone caught engaging in this behavior.

I don't even care if they admit anything or apologize, as long as they actually work at snuffing these markets out

*(Saw someone earlier say that every culture does something disgusting or whatever. Ok, how many of them lead to multiple global pandemics?)

Filthy?

As opposed to what? There are far worse markets out there?
Who is to say the virus actually originated there? Perhaps it originated elsewhere, but only became a problem in China because they actually cared enought to investigate what was putting all the people in the hospital with Pneumonia.

There are far too many racist rants going on about china, and the start of this thread is just the fruit of that unkind and unjust labor.

Isn't it common knowledge it came from those markets? If that is not the case I'll gladly retract some of what I said.

But I'm pretty sure that this virus and previous ones came from these meat markets?? From what I read (and I could be wrong,) denial that it came from the particular market in Wuhan and that 55 year old man is somewhat conspiratorial (the US sent it, bioweapons, etc.) If there is doubt or evidence to the contrary, please, share it

But if it's indeed from China then "filthy," sure, whatever word you want. Pick any gross place around the world, is it spawning SARS, MERS, corona virus, etc?

If it was coming from rednecks in FL eating alligator I'd be calling it The Florida Man Virus and giving them hell. Race has nothing to do with it.

This is an off topic item. It is a bit long, but the context is important.

mham001 wrote:

but are you really saying you believe the current legal proceedings against the Saudi government (for death) are unwarranted?

IRANIAN government.

I, and a few hundred other US military personnel. Were injured. And 241 US military marines, sailors and soldiers died on Oct 23, 1983 in Beirut.

We were an armed uniformed military force, occupying a few hundred acres in a country (Lebanon) were at least 9 different groups were engaged in daily conflict. Every thing from ground attacks with small arms to field grade artillery.

True we were supposedly there on a peace keeping mission, with minimal use of force.

On August 28, the Marines of 24 MAU returned fire, after several rounds of target mortar and rocket mutations landed within our perimeter, with the deaths of 2 Marines.

September a combination of groups stage attacks that basically eliminated the Lebanese Armed Forces (military of the legal/internationally recognized government) as an effective fighting force. From Sept 5 for several days, the US Marines and support elements such as my US Navy unit, at the airport were subject to near constant artillery, mortar and small arms fire.

On Sept 8, ships of the US Navy started Naval Gunfire Support against targets in the hills around the airport, mainly artillery positions. The US Navy fire was extremely accurate when compared with local gunner's visible accuracy. (Personally, I've always felt that artillery troops of the various factions avoided counter battery fire. Kind of a I won't shoot you if you don't shoot me, while we both shoot at each other's ground troops.)

The US Navy seldom needed more than one spotting round, often not that even needing a spotting round. Also the US had technology which no one else in country had to identify within 1M from where an artillery shell was fired toward us, or toward any other target within the basin. And a 5M CPE for over the horizon originated artillery. While the 'reason' for the NGFS escalation of the US military involvement was 'to protect' the Marines, many of the US Navy ship shells were fired in support of the LAF.

A cease fire war arranged, lasted about two days in real terms, though officially it lasted to mid-Oct.

The level of small arms sniper fire into the Marine positions grew to a near constant 40-50 incoming rounds per hour. It was not accurate, and often from beyond the effective range of the weapons.

Personally two times on different days, my Kevlar vest was hit by near spent rounds. Had they struck exposed parts of my arms or legs, or my face, I would have been injured enough to require movement to an off shore ship for treatment/ surgery. That happened to a few Marines.

Intelligence and other sources has now determined that the inability of the groups opposed to the recognized government of Lebanon to hit back at the US Navy ships and the US element of the Multi-National Peace Keeping Force led even groups which were opposed to the intervention of Iranian government supported fighters - to agree to support and help an ambitious plan to attack the US and French elements of the MNF.

An attack on the Marines on Oct 19 by what we now call an IED car bomb did not heighten our security levels. The morning of Oct 23, at 0620 local time, I was thrown out of my cot in a nearby building of the Battalion Landing Team 1/8 HQ where the car bomb struck. After digging myself and other members of my unit out from under the debris of the ceiling and roof of our building, we assisted in the recovery in injured, and the remains of the dead.

Now here is my point.

1) We were an armed military force, under frequent attack by forces opposed to the local government.
2) Our government, the United States, had transitioned the mission of supporting US military forces to an active participant in the local multi-faceted war.

I cannot understand how the attack can be viewed as anything but a military action using unconventional weapons against a opposing combatant force.

I personally believe it is a very dangerous precedent to allow civil courts in the United States and by extension other nations, to engage in lawsuits and awards for damages for actions which happen during military conflict. The argument that the Hezbollah and Iranian Ministry of Information and Security are civilly liable because they were not 'legally' combatants is wrong in my opinion.

That opinion is not shared by many others who were there that day, or families.

I understand their feelings. They lost something dear and precious. Loved ones, fathers in many cases. One of my guys basically lost his humanity, his PTSD at what he saw that day still haunts him and hinders his ability to function in society. Personally, I just lost several ounces of blood and a bit of skin. Not even needing stitches for my wounds. My PTSD was minimized because not long after, 16 months, I entered an alcoholic treatment program, which help me build a structure to work on my mental health.

US society has become 'SOMEONE MUST PAY' and families seek their 'justice';

And I most strongly believe the that US government at the time to the highest levels including Ronald Reagan personally failed us, those Marines, Sailors and Soldiers. Failed to protect them, or rather allow them/us to use the capabilities at hand to defend ourselves. Failed to provide support for surviving spouses and children. Failed to provide necessary continuing medical support and treatment to those wounded. Either somewhat minor injuries such as myself, or severe disabling injuries.

In 1983, a military family received $100,000 as a 'life insurance' settlement. Within 30 days, if they lived in military housing, they were supposed to move away. The military would pay for the move. The only continuing financial support would be based upon the Social Security widow's benefits, and surviving children program. Minimal substance level. The widow of a member of the US military killed in combat, or any other reason, usually had to return to the workforce within a few weeks, maybe a few months, to survive economically. There was continuing access to military medical facilities for the widow and children, if they chose to live near a major military base. The dependent's medical care program paid less than Medicaid at the time, and was frequently not accepted by any health care providers in large regions of the nation. There is/was no dental care within the US for military dependent spouses or children, active duty, retired or survivors at the time. It is better now, but does not begin to equate with most white collar corporate health care coverage.

The 9/11 attacks are different. While maybe people felt they were legitimate military actions against the civilian base of the nation supporting the opposing military force, that is a matter for courts to decide.

If we, the United States, support damages for military active duty injuries and casualties being pursued in civil courts, what will protect the US government, or individual soldiers, sailors, marines or airmen, for being targeted in the courts of other nations?

Are we looking at a point in 5, 10, or 20 years where a veteran of US military service cannot leave US soil for fear of possible arrest, or confiscation of assets, for an action which happened years before?

The first lawsuits over the Oct 23, 1983 attack were not filed for about 18 years, and only after lawsuits of the 9/11 attacks were filed.

I'm not in anyway faulting those who filed, but I've had a couple thousand pages of information on requests for me to join the suits in the past near 20 years. And burred down deep is - the lawyers will get a very substantial portion of the money, if any is ever recovered.

Tugger wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

Tugger wrote:

It's not "woke" or or an apologizing or anything like that, it is just Trump being his normal self, name calling and wanting to get a rise of others. The MAGA's out there love that sh!t, and he lives for that, the "admiration" they give him. He is just further demonstrating that he is and continues to be a poor president. Nothing more, nothing "woke".

Tugg

What's wrong with calling it the Wuhan Virus? Lyme disease is named after Lyme Connecticut. Ebola was named after the river in the Congo. Spanish Flue, etc. Why does China get treated with white gloves?

He's not calling it "Wuhan Virus".

Also, what white gloves? My comment is to WHY he does that, I am not saying a virus (including this one) can't be named after a location.

Tugg

Swine flu is not the Mexico Virus, MERS is not the London virus, or the Dshiddah Virus... we don't name viruses after places anymore, because it only serves scared shitless people to put blame on wherever place is in the name.

DeltaMD90 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

DeltaMD90 wrote:

I'm not seeing the racism here. To what degree China is in the wrong is debatable, but they did a piss poor job at preventing yet another virus from the filthy conditions of some of their meat markets. Yes filthy*. No that's not racist

I hope, at the very least, China flexes their dictatorial muscles and shuts down these meat markets for good. Give out harsh, unfair penalties for anyone caught engaging in this behavior.

I don't even care if they admit anything or apologize, as long as they actually work at snuffing these markets out

*(Saw someone earlier say that every culture does something disgusting or whatever. Ok, how many of them lead to multiple global pandemics?)

Filthy?

As opposed to what? There are far worse markets out there?
Who is to say the virus actually originated there? Perhaps it originated elsewhere, but only became a problem in China because they actually cared enought to investigate what was putting all the people in the hospital with Pneumonia.

There are far too many racist rants going on about china, and the start of this thread is just the fruit of that unkind and unjust labor.

Isn't it common knowledge it came from those markets? If that is not the case I'll gladly retract some of what I said.

It is common knowledge that the first infected where on that market, not that the infection actually happened on that market. Could very well be someone hunting the animals that where sold getting infected in the process of hunting them, going on infecting other people in that market.

The places correlate, but as always that doesn't mean causation.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01 ... g-globally

And of cause what I'd "common knowledge" and what is true don't need to be the same thing.

Best regards
Thomas

By some estimates this fiasco should have started in early/mid November 2019, based on animal to human transfer and long incubation period. We are in the fifth month, not many complained about China. World was eager to learn from them on how to handle this pandemic.

WHO head was in tears while declaring this as public emergency of global concern, repeated multiple times not to stop trade and tourism with China. No country cutoff China.

IATA doctor recommended public to keep flying without protection. No thermal scanner, no temperature reading, no quarantine self or mandatory, no test kits, no tests.

When Japan,Korea and Iran struggled to contain the outbreak, those countries were blamed, not China

Initially some Chinese citizens provided some valuable insight through leaked videos. But China cutoff information flow, started managing the numbers, world lost faith in those numbers.

And only when Italy got hit WHO declared it as pandemic. World simply followed their lead, and here we are.

Now China throwing a tantrum about name calling is a bit rich, IMHO. Tough luck, live with it.

Reparations won’t happen. Debt forgiveness by the Chinese government could be an option. What’s more important is preventing this from happening again. Will the Chinese government finally take the measures they should’ve taken years ago to avoid being the source of the 2nd Great Depression? Will the international community be forced to take measures such as forced quarantine on anyone leaving China at a secure and isolated location outside North America and Europe for 14 days until the Chinese government take the appropriate actions? I feel this will be a watershed moment for our relationship with China in a multitude of ways. Perhaps a watershed moment for the Chinese people as well.