LCDFlight wrote:

Either this came from an accidental laboratory release in China, which was built out of military ambition and not classic science. Alternatively, this virus came from a crazy dangerous illegal food market, and China struggles with that.

Either way, this is highly embarrassing for China. China is fairly civilized in many ways. They are getting food safety and laboratory quarantine figured out. They are trying. If it is the lab, then that is especially damning. It's China's Chernobyl in that case and should lead to deep political reforms. If it was an illegal market, then they need to get serious about that. The US got serious about food safety 100 years ago or so.

Derico wrote:

I agree China's reputation is already hurt because of this. They had the chance to be stricter on the wet markets and decided not too after a while.

But, it is also very difficult to enforce personal responsibility. Even for a massive state apparatus like Mainland China, you can't catch 100% of people that trade these animals and their fluids in unsanitary conditions. But of course they could make a huge dent in it, minimizing the risks. And when some novel virus does pop up, they can act big and fast. I think they will from now on, if anything simply to protect their governance. For the first time they felt things could get out of hand.

LCDFlight wrote:

Either this came from an accidental laboratory release in China, which was built out of military ambition and not classic science. Alternatively, this virus came from a crazy dangerous illegal food market, and China struggles with that..

Aesma wrote:

Just think of the number of countries who could ask an apology and reparations from the USA.

Vietnam from bombing it to hell, poisoning everything with agent orange. Laos and Cambodge too.
Most countries in Latin America for CIA coups.
Half the Middle East.
Iran
the list goes on

Then there is the needless pollution, global warming...

Aesma wrote:

Just think of the number of countries who could ask an apology and reparations from the USA.

Vietnam from bombing it to hell, poisoning everything with agent orange. Laos and Cambodge too.
Most countries in Latin America for CIA coups.
Half the Middle East.
Iran
the list goes on

Then there is the needless pollution, global warming...

DeltaMD90 wrote:

Is there any actual proof (keyword: proof) of the laboratory theory besides a conspiracy for conspiracy sake? Just like most conspiracy theories, it just seems like people want to believe something more nefarious and connect dots that don't necessarily need to be connected

And then we're to believe China manufactured a virus very similar to viruses that have previously and naturally spawned from that region already? It's more likely it's a weapon and not a mutation of the very similar viruses in the area? With a death rate that is hardly what you'd expect from a weaponized virus? Supposedly to be released somewhere else when it looks like viruses that came from China and would eventually spread and wreak havoc in China?

It just doesn't make any sense. Again, it seems like a conspiracy for conspiracy sake

tommy1808 wrote:

DeltaMD90 wrote:

Is there any actual proof (keyword: proof) of the laboratory theory besides a conspiracy for conspiracy sake? Just like most conspiracy theories, it just seems like people want to believe something more nefarious and connect dots that don't necessarily need to be connected

And then we're to believe China manufactured a virus very similar to viruses that have previously and naturally spawned from that region already? It's more likely it's a weapon and not a mutation of the very similar viruses in the area? With a death rate that is hardly what you'd expect from a weaponized virus? Supposedly to be released somewhere else when it looks like viruses that came from China and would eventually spread and wreak havoc in China?

It just doesn't make any sense. Again, it seems like a conspiracy for conspiracy sake

No, there is no proof it is a lab product. We have gene sequences of a gazillion of corona viruses and can hence check if this virus has any changes beyond what you would expect from naturally occurring mutation rates. I mean we are finding this Virus in (old) bat droppings that is only ~70 years away from what we fighting now....

On top of that, as mentioned a few posts above, we don´t even have evidence that the virus jumped from animal to human animal on that market rather than some already infected human spreading it there. One third of the initial batch of sick had no relation to that market in any way whatsoever...

Those narratives only exist to put all the blame onto the party that lit the match, but absolutely no blame on the people that watched it smolder, develop into an open fire because they couldn´t be bothered to fetch a bit of water.

best regards
Thomas

1989worstyear wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

DeltaMD90 wrote:

Is there any actual proof (keyword: proof) of the laboratory theory besides a conspiracy for conspiracy sake? Just like most conspiracy theories, it just seems like people want to believe something more nefarious and connect dots that don't necessarily need to be connected

And then we're to believe China manufactured a virus very similar to viruses that have previously and naturally spawned from that region already? It's more likely it's a weapon and not a mutation of the very similar viruses in the area? With a death rate that is hardly what you'd expect from a weaponized virus? Supposedly to be released somewhere else when it looks like viruses that came from China and would eventually spread and wreak havoc in China?

It just doesn't make any sense. Again, it seems like a conspiracy for conspiracy sake

No, there is no proof it is a lab product. We have gene sequences of a gazillion of corona viruses and can hence check if this virus has any changes beyond what you would expect from naturally occurring mutation rates. I mean we are finding this Virus in (old) bat droppings that is only ~70 years away from what we fighting now....

On top of that, as mentioned a few posts above, we don´t even have evidence that the virus jumped from animal to human animal on that market rather than some already infected human spreading it there. One third of the initial batch of sick had no relation to that market in any way whatsoever...

Those narratives only exist to put all the blame onto the party that lit the match, but absolutely no blame on the people that watched it smolder, develop into an open fire because they couldn´t be bothered to fetch a bit of water.

best regards
Thomas

Still, these wet markets have introduced epidemics in the past. It's certainly something that needs to change globally.

Aesma wrote:

Just think of the number of countries who could ask an apology and reparations from the USA.

Vietnam from bombing it to hell, poisoning everything with agent orange. Laos and Cambodge too.
Most countries in Latin America for CIA coups.
Half the Middle East.
Iran
the list goes on

Then there is the needless pollution, global warming...

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

The American woke media is appalled that Trump is calling this a Chinese virus. I know that wokeness is about denying the truth or saying something is not what it is, but so far we Americans are frustrated how the woke elite is apologizing for China.

You are terming it a ‘woke’ issue when it’s just a reaction to stupidity and politicization of a public health issue. Viruses do not obey geographic limits and human designations of those limits don’t apply to virology, ever. Viruses reproduce by using the cells of any vector compatible with them, anywhere. They cannot be ‘Chinese’ or ‘foreign’ by definition. Nature doesn’t give two shits about petty human squabbles.

I am really sorry, its not going to fly. The damage that this has done is way past thinking this is a universal problem. We are talking about the imminent collapse of the world's economy here. People will die in the millions, lose their livelihoods. Obviously people are to blame someone for this, and everyone will point to China.

Don't know why you keep avoiding and apologizing for China. The normal American, and the rest of the world will point the blame to China, like it or not.

Pellegrine wrote:

Aesma wrote:

Just think of the number of countries who could ask an apology and reparations from the USA.

Vietnam from bombing it to hell, poisoning everything with agent orange. Laos and Cambodge too.
Most countries in Latin America for CIA coups.
Half the Middle East.
Iran
the list goes on

Then there is the needless pollution, global warming...

The United States won't even pay their own citizens reparations for enslaving their ancestors and continuing to engage in institutional racism from the bottom up and the top down. And some of these posters want to ponder about China's problems. Whew...that's a laugh.

Kiwirob wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

You are terming it a ‘woke’ issue when it’s just a reaction to stupidity and politicization of a public health issue. Viruses do not obey geographic limits and human designations of those limits don’t apply to virology, ever. Viruses reproduce by using the cells of any vector compatible with them, anywhere. They cannot be ‘Chinese’ or ‘foreign’ by definition. Nature doesn’t give two shits about petty human squabbles.

I am really sorry, its not going to fly. The damage that this has done is way past thinking this is a universal problem. We are talking about the imminent collapse of the world's economy here. People will die in the millions, lose their livelihoods. Obviously people are to blame someone for this, and everyone will point to China.

Don't know why you keep avoiding and apologizing for China. The normal American, and the rest of the world will point the blame to China, like it or not.

People will die in there millions, that's complete BS, more people in the US have died in the current flu season, approx 18,000 than have died of covid19 world wide.

Pellegrine wrote:

Aesma wrote:

Just think of the number of countries who could ask an apology and reparations from the USA.

Vietnam from bombing it to hell, poisoning everything with agent orange. Laos and Cambodge too.
Most countries in Latin America for CIA coups.
Half the Middle East.
Iran
the list goes on

Then there is the needless pollution, global warming...

The United States won't even pay their own citizens reparations for enslaving their ancestors and continuing to engage in institutional racism from the bottom up and the top down. And some of these posters want to ponder about China's problems. Whew...that's a laugh.

tommy1808 wrote:

Pellegrine wrote:

Aesma wrote:

Just think of the number of countries who could ask an apology and reparations from the USA.

Vietnam from bombing it to hell, poisoning everything with agent orange. Laos and Cambodge too.
Most countries in Latin America for CIA coups.
Half the Middle East.
Iran
the list goes on

Then there is the needless pollution, global warming...

The United States won't even pay their own citizens reparations for enslaving their ancestors and continuing to engage in institutional racism from the bottom up and the top down. And some of these posters want to ponder about China's problems. Whew...that's a laugh.

or pay up when the International court rules they have to for supporting terrorism....

Kiwirob wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

I am really sorry, its not going to fly. The damage that this has done is way past thinking this is a universal problem. We are talking about the imminent collapse of the world's economy here. People will die in the millions, lose their livelihoods. Obviously people are to blame someone for this, and everyone will point to China.

Don't know why you keep avoiding and apologizing for China. The normal American, and the rest of the world will point the blame to China, like it or not.

People will die in there millions, that's complete BS, more people in the US have died in the current flu season, approx 18,000 than have died of covid19 world wide.

And we only have 200.000 infected we know about. Even if there are 4 more infected for everyone we know about, that is 0.18%, and there are still 100k sick, some of which will die. If ~2/3 of the world population get it, and with no preexisting immunity that is invariably what is going to happen unless we get really serious about containment, that is 8 to 10 Million dead, before we have a vaccine.

Anyone that thinks that countries all over the planet throw a whole bag of wrenches into the world economy´s gear for something that may not kill millions over million if we don´t, needs their head checked out.

The only way this will not kill millions is people getting really, really scared, and smart up.

best regards
Thomas

1989worstyear wrote:

Pellegrine wrote:

Aesma wrote:

Just think of the number of countries who could ask an apology and reparations from the USA.

Vietnam from bombing it to hell, poisoning everything with agent orange. Laos and Cambodge too.
Most countries in Latin America for CIA coups.
Half the Middle East.
Iran
the list goes on

Then there is the needless pollution, global warming...

The United States won't even pay their own citizens reparations for enslaving their ancestors and continuing to engage in institutional racism from the bottom up and the top down. And some of these posters want to ponder about China's problems. Whew...that's a laugh.

Do you remember SARS? The Chinese government had 15 years to clean up these disgusting wet markets, yet here we are again.

The US's domestic problems deserve a whole new thread

1989worstyear wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

Pellegrine wrote:

The United States won't even pay their own citizens reparations for enslaving their ancestors and continuing to engage in institutional racism from the bottom up and the top down. And some of these posters want to ponder about China's problems. Whew...that's a laugh.

or pay up when the International court rules they have to for supporting terrorism....

Kiwirob wrote:

People will die in there millions, that's complete BS, more people in the US have died in the current flu season, approx 18,000 than have died of covid19 world wide.

And we only have 200.000 infected we know about. Even if there are 4 more infected for everyone we know about, that is 0.18%, and there are still 100k sick, some of which will die. If ~2/3 of the world population get it, and with no preexisting immunity that is invariably what is going to happen unless we get really serious about containment, that is 8 to 10 Million dead, before we have a vaccine.

Anyone that thinks that countries all over the planet throw a whole bag of wrenches into the world economy´s gear for something that may not kill millions over million if we don´t, needs their head checked out.

The only way this will not kill millions is people getting really, really scared, and smart up.

best regards
Thomas

Maybe helium hoods should be made available. Seriously.

1989worstyear wrote:

Pellegrine wrote:

Aesma wrote:

Just think of the number of countries who could ask an apology and reparations from the USA.

Vietnam from bombing it to hell, poisoning everything with agent orange. Laos and Cambodge too.
Most countries in Latin America for CIA coups.
Half the Middle East.
Iran
the list goes on

Then there is the needless pollution, global warming...

The United States won't even pay their own citizens reparations for enslaving their ancestors and continuing to engage in institutional racism from the bottom up and the top down. And some of these posters want to ponder about China's problems. Whew...that's a laugh.

Do you remember SARS? The Chinese government had 15 years to clean up these disgusting wet markets, yet here we are again.

The US's domestic problems deserve a whole new thread

AirWorthy99 wrote:

There should be strong emotions, when you are changing drastically the lifestyles of millions of people. My children can't go back to school, despite one of them having some developmental issues and requires social interaction with other students. I am frustrated as millions of people are of this going on. In top of that we need to constantly worry about health, and the threat of catching this virus and falling horribly ill.

In top of that, the idea of suspending life indefinitely is a real problem, since we don't actually know when would this end.
The government should begin to actually think on a strategy that doesn't involve us wasting 12 to 18 months waiting for a vaccine. Trump and our other elected politicians should work on something that can return this country to normalcy.

Hell yes I am thinking on China, all the time.

scbriml wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

There should be strong emotions, when you are changing drastically the lifestyles of millions of people. My children can't go back to school, despite one of them having some developmental issues and requires social interaction with other students. I am frustrated as millions of people are of this going on. In top of that we need to constantly worry about health, and the threat of catching this virus and falling horribly ill.

In top of that, the idea of suspending life indefinitely is a real problem, since we don't actually know when would this end.
The government should begin to actually think on a strategy that doesn't involve us wasting 12 to 18 months waiting for a vaccine. Trump and our other elected politicians should work on something that can return this country to normalcy.

Hell yes I am thinking on China, all the time.

I think you're being overly pessimistic.

The vast majority of people who catch Covid-19 only exhibit mild symptoms. Only a small minority fall "horribly ill" and many who've died would very probably have died if they'd caught seasonal flu.

Without a vaccine, what do you really think any Government can do other than what they're doing already?

How do you return to normalcy in abnormal circumstances?

Put yourself in charge - what would you do? I don't think you'll find there are any easy answers.

Derico wrote:

I agree China's reputation is already hurt because of this. They had the chance to be stricter on the wet markets and decided not too after a while.

But, it is also very difficult to enforce personal responsibility. Even for a massive state apparatus like Mainland China, you can't catch 100% of people that trade these animals and their fluids in unsanitary conditions. But of course they could make a huge dent in it, minimizing the risks. And when some novel virus does pop up, they can act big and fast. I think they will from now on, if anything simply to protect their governance. For the first time they felt things could get out of hand.

casinterest wrote:

This is a natural disaster. Not one of China's makings. There will be no reparations despite what right wing racist folks think.

scbriml wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

There should be strong emotions, when you are changing drastically the lifestyles of millions of people. My children can't go back to school, despite one of them having some developmental issues and requires social interaction with other students. I am frustrated as millions of people are of this going on. In top of that we need to constantly worry about health, and the threat of catching this virus and falling horribly ill.

In top of that, the idea of suspending life indefinitely is a real problem, since we don't actually know when would this end.
The government should begin to actually think on a strategy that doesn't involve us wasting 12 to 18 months waiting for a vaccine. Trump and our other elected politicians should work on something that can return this country to normalcy.

Hell yes I am thinking on China, all the time.

I think you're being overly pessimistic.

The vast majority of people who catch Covid-19 only exhibit mild symptoms. Only a small minority fall "horribly ill" and many who've died would very probably have died if they'd caught seasonal flu.

Without a vaccine, what do you really think any Government can do other than what they're doing already? How do you return to normalcy in abnormal circumstances? Put yourself in charge - what would you do? I don't think you'll find there are any easy answers.

stratosphere wrote:

casinterest wrote:

This is a natural disaster. Not one of China's makings. There will be no reparations despite what right wing racist folks think.

You liberals make me want to scream..This is NOT a natural disaster a Tornado is a natural disaster.....

stratosphere wrote:

casinterest wrote:

This is a natural disaster. Not one of China's makings. There will be no reparations despite what right wing racist folks think.

You liberals make me want to scream..This is NOT a natural disaster a Tornado is a natural disaster...China OWNS this disaster and the world collapse that is coming. It either came out of that super lab in Wuhan by accident or from their disgusting wet markets either way we know it originated with them...Not to mention China sat on critical information about what was happening until the virus spread out of control. Yes there is plenty of blame to go around after the virus got out of China of how different countries handled it but lets not lose sight of where it started..It's not the first time it's happened in China either..

casinterest wrote:

stratosphere wrote:

casinterest wrote:

This is a natural disaster. Not one of China's makings. There will be no reparations despite what right wing racist folks think.

You liberals make me want to scream..This is NOT a natural disaster a Tornado is a natural disaster...China OWNS this disaster and the world collapse that is coming. It either came out of that super lab in Wuhan by accident or from their disgusting wet markets either way we know it originated with them...Not to mention China sat on critical information about what was happening until the virus spread out of control. Yes there is plenty of blame to go around after the virus got out of China of how different countries handled it but lets not lose sight of where it started..It's not the first time it's happened in China either..

So what? It was still a natural event. China has eaten bat soup for centuries, even if you want to pretend it is a recent event. Right wing radio and nutcases that listen to it, have pushed that it is no big deal. Now that it is a big deal they are doing what they know how to do. Blame someone. Because guess what. No on that is in the Right wing echo circle knows how to solve anything. They just lay blame and push on with their lies.

At the end of the day, this illness was identified within 30 days. It's incredible when you look at it's incubation and spread rate. China did what they needed to do and started shutting down when they had a handle on how easily it was spread.

Aesma wrote:

In France we have things called "marchés" (markets) that look like the same thing as a "wet market", so that name confuses me. Maybe we should talk about "slaughter markets" or something like that, because that's the real issue, not selling already killed fish and meat. Or "wildlife markets". Although one wikipedia image for a wet market shows dead dogs...

rfields5421 wrote:

This is an off topic item. It is a bit long, but the context is important.

mham001 wrote:

but are you really saying you believe the current legal proceedings against the Saudi government (for death) are unwarranted?

IRANIAN government.

I, and a few hundred other US military personnel. Were injured. And 241 US military marines, sailors and soldiers died on Oct 23, 1983 in Beirut.

We were an armed uniformed military force, occupying a few hundred acres in a country (Lebanon) were at least 9 different groups were engaged in daily conflict. Every thing from ground attacks with small arms to field grade artillery.

True we were supposedly there on a peace keeping mission, with minimal use of force.

On August 28, the Marines of 24 MAU returned fire, after several rounds of target mortar and rocket mutations landed within our perimeter, with the deaths of 2 Marines.

September a combination of groups stage attacks that basically eliminated the Lebanese Armed Forces (military of the legal/internationally recognized government) as an effective fighting force. From Sept 5 for several days, the US Marines and support elements such as my US Navy unit, at the airport were subject to near constant artillery, mortar and small arms fire.

On Sept 8, ships of the US Navy started Naval Gunfire Support against targets in the hills around the airport, mainly artillery positions. The US Navy fire was extremely accurate when compared with local gunner's visible accuracy. (Personally, I've always felt that artillery troops of the various factions avoided counter battery fire. Kind of a I won't shoot you if you don't shoot me, while we both shoot at each other's ground troops.)

The US Navy seldom needed more than one spotting round, often not that even needing a spotting round. Also the US had technology which no one else in country had to identify within 1M from where an artillery shell was fired toward us, or toward any other target within the basin. And a 5M CPE for over the horizon originated artillery. While the 'reason' for the NGFS escalation of the US military involvement was 'to protect' the Marines, many of the US Navy ship shells were fired in support of the LAF.

A cease fire war arranged, lasted about two days in real terms, though officially it lasted to mid-Oct.

The level of small arms sniper fire into the Marine positions grew to a near constant 40-50 incoming rounds per hour. It was not accurate, and often from beyond the effective range of the weapons.

Personally two times on different days, my Kevlar vest was hit by near spent rounds. Had they struck exposed parts of my arms or legs, or my face, I would have been injured enough to require movement to an off shore ship for treatment/ surgery. That happened to a few Marines.

Intelligence and other sources has now determined that the inability of the groups opposed to the recognized government of Lebanon to hit back at the US Navy ships and the US element of the Multi-National Peace Keeping Force led even groups which were opposed to the intervention of Iranian government supported fighters - to agree to support and help an ambitious plan to attack the US and French elements of the MNF.

An attack on the Marines on Oct 19 by what we now call an IED car bomb did not heighten our security levels. The morning of Oct 23, at 0620 local time, I was thrown out of my cot in a nearby building of the Battalion Landing Team 1/8 HQ where the car bomb struck. After digging myself and other members of my unit out from under the debris of the ceiling and roof of our building, we assisted in the recovery in injured, and the remains of the dead.

Now here is my point.

1) We were an armed military force, under frequent attack by forces opposed to the local government.
2) Our government, the United States, had transitioned the mission of supporting US military forces to an active participant in the local multi-faceted war.

I cannot understand how the attack can be viewed as anything but a military action using unconventional weapons against a opposing combatant force.

I personally believe it is a very dangerous precedent to allow civil courts in the United States and by extension other nations, to engage in lawsuits and awards for damages for actions which happen during military conflict. The argument that the Hezbollah and Iranian Ministry of Information and Security are civilly liable because they were not 'legally' combatants is wrong in my opinion.

That opinion is not shared by many others who were there that day, or families.

I understand their feelings. They lost something dear and precious. Loved ones, fathers in many cases. One of my guys basically lost his humanity, his PTSD at what he saw that day still haunts him and hinders his ability to function in society. Personally, I just lost several ounces of blood and a bit of skin. Not even needing stitches for my wounds. My PTSD was minimized because not long after, 16 months, I entered an alcoholic treatment program, which help me build a structure to work on my mental health.

US society has become 'SOMEONE MUST PAY' and families seek their 'justice';

And I most strongly believe the that US government at the time to the highest levels including Ronald Reagan personally failed us, those Marines, Sailors and Soldiers. Failed to protect them, or rather allow them/us to use the capabilities at hand to defend ourselves. Failed to provide support for surviving spouses and children. Failed to provide necessary continuing medical support and treatment to those wounded. Either somewhat minor injuries such as myself, or severe disabling injuries.

In 1983, a military family received $100,000 as a 'life insurance' settlement. Within 30 days, if they lived in military housing, they were supposed to move away. The military would pay for the move. The only continuing financial support would be based upon the Social Security widow's benefits, and surviving children program. Minimal substance level. The widow of a member of the US military killed in combat, or any other reason, usually had to return to the workforce within a few weeks, maybe a few months, to survive economically. There was continuing access to military medical facilities for the widow and children, if they chose to live near a major military base. The dependent's medical care program paid less than Medicaid at the time, and was frequently not accepted by any health care providers in large regions of the nation. There is/was no dental care within the US for military dependent spouses or children, active duty, retired or survivors at the time. It is better now, but does not begin to equate with most white collar corporate health care coverage.

The 9/11 attacks are different. While maybe people felt they were legitimate military actions against the civilian base of the nation supporting the opposing military force, that is a matter for courts to decide.

If we, the United States, support damages for military active duty injuries and casualties being pursued in civil courts, what will protect the US government, or individual soldiers, sailors, marines or airmen, for being targeted in the courts of other nations?

Are we looking at a point in 5, 10, or 20 years where a veteran of US military service cannot leave US soil for fear of possible arrest, or confiscation of assets, for an action which happened years before?

The first lawsuits over the Oct 23, 1983 attack were not filed for about 18 years, and only after lawsuits of the 9/11 attacks were filed.

I'm not in anyway faulting those who filed, but I've had a couple thousand pages of information on requests for me to join the suits in the past near 20 years. And burred down deep is - the lawyers will get a very substantial portion of the money, if any is ever recovered.

DL717 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

stratosphere wrote:

You liberals make me want to scream..This is NOT a natural disaster a Tornado is a natural disaster...China OWNS this disaster and the world collapse that is coming. It either came out of that super lab in Wuhan by accident or from their disgusting wet markets either way we know it originated with them...Not to mention China sat on critical information about what was happening until the virus spread out of control. Yes there is plenty of blame to go around after the virus got out of China of how different countries handled it but lets not lose sight of where it started..It's not the first time it's happened in China either..

So what? It was still a natural event. China has eaten bat soup for centuries, even if you want to pretend it is a recent event. Right wing radio and nutcases that listen to it, have pushed that it is no big deal. Now that it is a big deal they are doing what they know how to do. Blame someone. Because guess what. No on that is in the Right wing echo circle knows how to solve anything. They just lay blame and push on with their lies.

At the end of the day, this illness was identified within 30 days. It's incredible when you look at it's incubation and spread rate. China did what they needed to do and started shutting down when they had a handle on how easily it was spread.

The wet market is a venerable shit show. I’ve never seen anything more disgusting. It’s amazing we don’t see this kind of crap more frequently. My fear is that we will see it more frequently in the coming years.

LCDFlight wrote:

Either this came from an accidental laboratory release in China, which was built out of military ambition and not classic science. Alternatively, this virus came from a crazy dangerous illegal food market, and China struggles with that.

Either way, this is highly embarrassing for China. China is fairly civilized in many ways. They are getting food safety and laboratory quarantine figured out. They are trying. If it is the lab, then that is especially damning. It's China's Chernobyl in that case and should lead to deep political reforms. If it was an illegal market, then they need to get serious about that. The US got serious about food safety 100 years ago or so.

StarAC17 wrote:

and medical equipment the world.

StarAC17 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Either this came from an accidental laboratory release in China, which was built out of military ambition and not classic science. Alternatively, this virus came from a crazy dangerous illegal food market, and China struggles with that.

Either way, this is highly embarrassing for China. China is fairly civilized in many ways. They are getting food safety and laboratory quarantine figured out. They are trying. If it is the lab, then that is especially damning. It's China's Chernobyl in that case and should lead to deep political reforms. If it was an illegal market, then they need to get serious about that. The US got serious about food safety 100 years ago or so.

The wildlife market has a huge lobby in China. IIRC wet markets were shut down after SARS and the ban wasn't indefinite and was allowed shortly after.

What other nations need to do is not rely on China to manufacture everything especially medical supplies. China is actually holding the west hostage as they produce most of the generic pharmaceuticals and medical equipment the world. One is that they shut down if affects all of us but they then hold these exports hostage when we regulate or are suspect of a company like Huawei.

DL717 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

stratosphere wrote:

You liberals make me want to scream..This is NOT a natural disaster a Tornado is a natural disaster...China OWNS this disaster and the world collapse that is coming. It either came out of that super lab in Wuhan by accident or from their disgusting wet markets either way we know it originated with them...Not to mention China sat on critical information about what was happening until the virus spread out of control. Yes there is plenty of blame to go around after the virus got out of China of how different countries handled it but lets not lose sight of where it started..It's not the first time it's happened in China either..

So what? It was still a natural event. China has eaten bat soup for centuries, even if you want to pretend it is a recent event. Right wing radio and nutcases that listen to it, have pushed that it is no big deal. Now that it is a big deal they are doing what they know how to do. Blame someone. Because guess what. No on that is in the Right wing echo circle knows how to solve anything. They just lay blame and push on with their lies.

At the end of the day, this illness was identified within 30 days. It's incredible when you look at it's incubation and spread rate. China did what they needed to do and started shutting down when they had a handle on how easily it was spread.

The wet market is a venerable shit show. I’ve never seen anything more disgusting. It’s amazing we don’t see this kind of crap more frequently. My fear is that we will see it more frequently in the coming years.

VSMUT wrote:

Yes, absolutely. They knew that their wet markets were a problem. Several epidemics have originated from these disgusting Chinese habits, and they still haven't done anything to prevent it. China is entirely responsible for the damages, and must pay the compensation.

bhill wrote:

No, but China MUST start acting like a first world country with regards to public sanitation. I thought about this the other day as to how far removed the usual first world citizen is from getting the food on their table or in the refrigerator. It really shows how having our meat and dairy products nicely wrapped and or pasteurized prevents the diseases that were pretty much stomped out that were rampant in the West and still seem to be an issue in the East. Living so closely to your living, breathing food needs to stop. Or this preventable shit will keep rolling out...

rfields5421 wrote:

mham001 wrote:

Loss of wages

Lost wages is specific and quantifiable, but almost never recoverable. My granddaughter will never be repaid for the six days she was forced to stay home with no pay over the past week.

mham001 wrote:

and death

Death is not a quantifiable loss. Maybe the costs of preparing the deceased and final placement of the remains.

EVERYONE will die. And in my personal experience, almost everyone will die at a time that is very unfortunate and inconvenient to survivors. I've spent more thousands of dollars traveling to funerals and spending MONTHS sitting with dying relatives in the final agony than I could possibly count. Last summer it was about $25,000 USD unplanned or budgeted, sitting in hospitals with my youngest brother. To my great joy he survived and was able to return home, with diminished physical and mental capacity, but my baby brother is alive today.

But there are no guarantees. If direct deliberate action causes a death, there are formulas used to assess the economic impact upon the survivors, especially minor children with no ability to survive independently.

So far I've seen nothing that even attempts to provide evidence this illness was created or distributed purposely.

mham001 wrote:

I personally will (probably) see hundreds of thousand$ in real estate losses on a house currently for sale. if people can't leave their houses, they can't shop for new ones. fewer/no buyers, fewer/no offers and prices decline. it's that simple.

You need some lessons in economics and investing. Your home has ZERO VALUE beyond what people are willing to pay at the moment you sell it. If you feel that you cannot afford to "lose" that much, don't sell. Now job transfers, family issues, have caused me to decide selling a home at less of a price than I wanted was necessary.

But it is a CHOICE. As with any investment, there is always a risk of having to sell for less than you paid for an item.

And if you are unwilling to take the risk of that happening, then you should not buy a home in the first place.

Another practicality, which I do think is very unfair, but will never change.

I get several things each year that I am in the settlement group of some 'injustice'.

Be it from Apple for slowing down my old phone, Yahoo for compromising the security of my personal data a couple decades ago, etc. I've even got one for cost related to injuries I received on Oct 23, 1983 in Beirut Lebanon as part of a claim against the government of Iran.

When I read all the fine print, the reality is that I get no real spendable cash in my hands.

Maybe some 'services' for free.

But law firms get millions, maybe hundreds of millions of dollars CASH. Now they spent a lot of time, money and took a huge risk of getting nothing, but the investment paid off for them.

Look at all the billions of dollars in settlements and compensation for the lives destroyed by oxycontin and such. Do the victims or families get any money? Haven't seen where any will actual receive cash.
But a lot of US state governments have received millions of dollars which they can spend without public input or accountability.

If China were to "Pay", almost none of the money would end up in you, or my, hands.

Danny wrote:

I don't think anyone would want to start war on China hence they will pay nothing.

casinterest wrote:

DL717 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

So what? It was still a natural event. China has eaten bat soup for centuries, even if you want to pretend it is a recent event. Right wing radio and nutcases that listen to it, have pushed that it is no big deal. Now that it is a big deal they are doing what they know how to do. Blame someone. Because guess what. No on that is in the Right wing echo circle knows how to solve anything. They just lay blame and push on with their lies.

At the end of the day, this illness was identified within 30 days. It's incredible when you look at it's incubation and spread rate. China did what they needed to do and started shutting down when they had a handle on how easily it was spread.

The wet market is a venerable shit show. I’ve never seen anything more disgusting. It’s amazing we don’t see this kind of crap more frequently. My fear is that we will see it more frequently in the coming years.

As opposed to the past where it always existed?

bhill wrote:

StarAC17 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Either this came from an accidental laboratory release in China, which was built out of military ambition and not classic science. Alternatively, this virus came from a crazy dangerous illegal food market, and China struggles with that.

Either way, this is highly embarrassing for China. China is fairly civilized in many ways. They are getting food safety and laboratory quarantine figured out. They are trying. If it is the lab, then that is especially damning. It's China's Chernobyl in that case and should lead to deep political reforms. If it was an illegal market, then they need to get serious about that. The US got serious about food safety 100 years ago or so.

The wildlife market has a huge lobby in China. IIRC wet markets were shut down after SARS and the ban wasn't indefinite and was allowed shortly after.

What other nations need to do is not rely on China to manufacture everything especially medical supplies. China is actually holding the west hostage as they produce most of the generic pharmaceuticals and medical equipment the world. One is that they shut down if affects all of us but they then hold these exports hostage when we regulate or are suspect of a company like Huawei.

Bullshit, China is not holding ANYONE hostage. It's the CEO's of the companies that have off shored the labor to make their products cheaper from wages and higher for dividends that cause this. And China should be embarrassed, as this was completely preventable if they would join the rest of the first world on public sanitation....