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dobilan
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:31 am

"It very likely won't be a direct payment from China but rest assured China will pay dearly from loss of business and trade barriers until they get their act together." - I fully agree.
China cannot pay even a fraction of the damage that is done (and is not done yet) and won't do that anyway. As a matter of fact their dear communist party is already spreading BS about the origins of the virus. Furthermore, the regular Chinese is not necessarily guilty of this situation to punish indiscriminately the whole country.
On the other hand, after this major crisis it would be suicidal for the West to continue to rely on single concentrated suppliers like China (or India for that matter). I think we'll see at least a partial reindustrialization of US and Europe. This will not only help US and EU in getting a bit quicker out of the economic crisis, but will help people from China and India to breathe clearer air.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:48 am

Where is the racism???

Can we not criticize what a country or what some of its citizens do without being a vile racist?

I guess I'll have to tell my Chinese friend of mine (who was born not too far from Wuhan) he's racist against Chinese people because we talked about this very situation today and he's also critical of some of the things done in China

:confused:
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:01 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Where is the racism???

Can we not criticize what a country or what some of its citizens do without being a vile racist?

I guess I'll have to tell my Chinese friend of mine (who was born not too far from Wuhan) he's racist against Chinese people because we talked about this very situation today and he's also critical of some of the things done in China

:confused:


That’s our silly world today - he’d be called self-hating or some similar nonsense. I have been called a self-hating Jew by evangelicals for staunch criticism of Israel :roll:
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:20 am

There is a difference between criticizing and demeaning your own people and having someone else do it for you, especially for reasons related to ignorance and prejudice. That's not a silly world. It is a more empathetic and understanding one.

I try to be empathetic and understanding, but one of my passports is American not Chinese. So I'll say, the level of STUPID racism from some of my fellow Americans is unreal, and this thread is very proof of it. If you want to hurt the Chinese so much, try to not buy so much of their cheaply manufactured goods...but Americans can't resist that. Try not having the US Government spend so much money that it needs China to buy US Treasuries...but they cannot resist that. Like I said...stupid racism, from people who have no idea how the world works.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:21 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Where is the racism???

Can we not criticize what a country or what some of its citizens do without being a vile racist?

I guess I'll have to tell my Chinese friend of mine (who was born not too far from Wuhan) he's racist against Chinese people because we talked about this very situation today and he's also critical of some of the things done in China

:confused:


Filthy, discusting and uncivilized are not the sort of words you'd use in an sensible discussion. You also don't not just ignore that the market wasn't the source, you repeat the fake news again and again even after correct information has been made available. "You" not as in you personally....

Kinda like complaining about the "western banking system" doesn't make you an antisemite, but once you press the issue you get to the Rothchilds rather quickly with pretty much everyone that uses the phrase in any negative context...

Best regards
Thomas
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:26 am

Pellegrine wrote:
Lots of people showing their racism in this thread. Brought all the racists out. Noted.


Calling out potential health hazards in any part of the globe is not "racist".

Now is the time for the whole world to rethink its food safety system.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:29 am

Pellegrine wrote:
There is a difference between criticizing and demeaning your own people and having someone else do it for you, especially for reasons related to ignorance and prejudice. That's not a silly world. It is a more empathetic and understanding one.

I try to be empathetic and understanding, but one of my passports is American not Chinese. So I'll say, the level of STUPID racism from some of my fellow Americans is unreal, and this thread is very proof of it. If you want to hurt the Chinese so much, try to not buy so much of their cheaply manufactured goods...but Americans can't resist that. Try not having the US Government spend so much money that it needs China to buy US Treasuries...but they cannot resist that. Like I said...stupid racism, from people who have no idea how the world works.


Agreed, I was referring specifically to being called out for criticizing places/situations one is part of or very familiar with.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:38 am

1989worstyear wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Lots of people showing their racism in this thread. Brought all the racists out. Noted.


Calling out potential health hazards in any part of the globe is not "racist".

Now is the time for the whole world to rethink its food safety system.


Maybe the US should do that too? Guess what? Every time you hear about a "food-borne illness" we call that a "fecal-anal route illness". Meaning someone picking your romaine lettuce in Salinas, CA SHIT IN THE FIELD OF LETTUCE and then picked it so you could eat a salad. No one gives vegetable/fruit pickers proper breaks...there are not restrooms close enough to where they work, etc.

Then the US has stupid laws too like...some states making it illegal to "defame" the agriculture industry and how dirty they really are.

Also, it is never the job of someone else to open your own eyes to racism and prejudice. Do it yourself. Read. Meet new people. Or get offended when you get called that because you are that and you are ignorant. Your choice.
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:48 am

Pellegrine wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Lots of people showing their racism in this thread. Brought all the racists out. Noted.


Calling out potential health hazards in any part of the globe is not "racist".

Now is the time for the whole world to rethink its food safety system.


Maybe the US should do that too? Guess what? Every time you hear about a "food-borne illness" we call that a "fecal-anal route illness". Meaning someone picking your romaine lettuce in Salinas, CA SHIT IN THE FIELD OF LETTUCE and then picked it so you could eat a salad. No one gives vegetable/fruit pickers proper breaks...there are not restrooms close enough to where they work, etc.

Then the US has stupid laws too like...some states making it illegal to "defame" the agriculture industry and how dirty they really are.

Also, it is never the job of someone else to open your own eyes to racism and prejudice. Do it yourself. Read. Meet new people. Or get offended when you get called that because you are that and you are ignorant. Your choice.


Nobody is saying the US food system does not have its fair share of flaws (quarterly lettuce shit bacteria recalls as you mention), but it's absolutely ridiculous when you equate criticism of the PRC government regarding regulation of wet markets post-2003 to people getting harassed/attacked around the world.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:38 pm

DL717 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
DL717 wrote:

The wet market is a venerable shit show. I’ve never seen anything more disgusting. It’s amazing we don’t see this kind of crap more frequently. My fear is that we will see it more frequently in the coming years.


As opposed to the past where it always existed?


No, in terms of modern global times where we can be subjected to massive viral outbreaks.


We have been subject to massive viral outbreaks for centuries.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:00 pm

Sorry, I'm not buying it. The strong words (disgusting, for example) are going after practices not people as a whole.

But if that's the case, I really encourage people to stop being "racist" against Americans. I see strong words against some of the stupid things my countrymen do in like every single thread... People should at least be consistent.

I see it as treating them with kid's gloves. I'm not going to tiptoe around issues just because they're Chinese and their skin color is not white. It's not even against Chinese people as a whole! In my group of friends in high school, I was the minority, one of the few white guys among a group of mostly Chinese. If anything, I probably bias a bit in China's favor when I shouldn't be because of my friends even though most of them are critical of China (to varying degrees).

But the markets *are* filthy, disgusting, and unsanitary! Sorry not sorry.

(and to Tommy, noted what you said about the cause maybe not being the market themselves, I'm talking about the supposed race issue as a whole)
 
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Revelation
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:24 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
There is no evidence that the food market is the culprit, rather than some human on that market, that got it somewhere in the wild.

tommy1808 wrote:
On top of that, as mentioned a few posts above, we don´t even have evidence that the virus jumped from animal to human animal on that market rather than some already infected human spreading it there. One third of the initial batch of sick had no relation to that market in any way whatsoever...

Those narratives only exist to put all the blame onto the party that lit the match, but absolutely no blame on the people that watched it smolder, develop into an open fire because they couldn´t be bothered to fetch a bit of water.

tommy1808 wrote:
Again: there is no evidence that Corona cake from that market and plenty that it didn't.

Denial about the source of the outbreak is only going to ensure future outbreaks.

Wet markets should be banned.

What is known about the source:

The virus is thought to be natural and have an animal origin,[47][48] through spillover infection.[49] It was first transmitted to humans in Wuhan, China, in November or December 2019, and the primary source of infection became human-to-human transmission by early January 2020.[50][51] The earliest known infection occurred on 17 November 2019.[52]

Zhou P, Yang XL, Wang XG, Hu B, Zhang L, Zhang W, et al. (23 January 2020). "Discovery of a novel coronavirus associated with the recent pneumonia outbreak in humans and its potential bat origin". bioRxiv (preprint). doi:10.1101/2020.01.22.914952.

Andersen KG, Rambaut A, Lipkin WI, Holmes EC, Garry RF (17 March 2020). "The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2". Nature Medicine. doi:10.1038/s41591-020-0820-9. Retrieved 18 March 2020.

Berger K (12 March 2020). "The Man Who Saw the Pandemic Coming". Nautilus. Retrieved 16 March 2020.
The Novel Coronavirus Pneumonia Emergency Response Epidemiology Team (17 February 2020). "The Epidemiological Characteristics of an Outbreak of
2019 Novel Coronavirus Diseases (COVID-19) — China, 2020". China CDC Weekly. 2 (8): 113–122. Retrieved 18 March 2020.

Heymann DL, Shindo N (February 2020). "COVID-19: what is next for public health?". Lancet. 395 (10224): 542–45. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(20)30374-3. PMID 32061313.

Walker J (14 March 2020). "China Traces Cornovirus To First Confirmed Case, Nearly Identfying 'Patient Zero'". Newsweek. Retrieved 14 March 2020.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus_disease_2019

As for not putting out fires, the last source says:

The WHO says its country office in China first received reports of a "pneumonia of unknown cause" detected in the city of Wuhan in the Hubei province on December 31 last year.

It added that authorities said some of the early patients had been operators in the Huanan Seafood market.

The first patient to show symptoms of what would later be identified as the new coronavirus, known as COVID-19, presented themselves on December 8, according to Chinese officials. The World Health Organization classified the spread of the virus as a pandemic on Wednesday.

Ai Fen, a doctor from Wuhan, told China's People magazine in an interview for the title's March edition that authorities had tried to suppress her early warnings about COVID-19 in December.


Ref: https://www.newsweek.com/china-traces-c ... ro-1492327

And:

The death of a Chinese doctor who tried to warn about the coronavirus outbreak has sparked widespread public anger and grief in China.

Li Wenliang died after contracting the virus while treating patients in Wuhan.

Last December he sent a message to fellow medics warning of a virus he thought looked like Sars - another deadly coronavirus.

But he was told by police to "stop making false comments" and was investigated for "spreading rumours".

Ref: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51409801

Chinese officialdom wasn't watching a fire smolder and refusing to get water, they were actively suppressing reports of the fire by intimidating the fire fighters.
 
889091
Posts: 366
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:38 pm

Revelation wrote:
Chinese officialdom wasn't watching a fire smolder and refusing to get water, they were actively suppressing reports of the fire by intimidating the fire fighters.


..careful Rev, pretty soon you'll be labelled a racist! :stirthepot:
 
slider
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:44 pm

https://www.axios.com/timeline-the-earl ... 5faab.html

China's culpability here is growing clearer by the day.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:44 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Lots of people showing their racism in this thread. Brought all the racists out. Noted.

Calling out potential health hazards in any part of the globe is not "racist".

Now is the time for the whole world to rethink its food safety system.

Maybe the US should do that too? Guess what? Every time you hear about a "food-borne illness" we call that a "fecal-anal route illness". Meaning someone picking your romaine lettuce in Salinas, CA SHIT IN THE FIELD OF LETTUCE and then picked it so you could eat a salad. No one gives vegetable/fruit pickers proper breaks...there are not restrooms close enough to where they work, etc.

Then the US has stupid laws too like...some states making it illegal to "defame" the agriculture industry and how dirty they really are.

Also, it is never the job of someone else to open your own eyes to racism and prejudice. Do it yourself. Read. Meet new people. Or get offended when you get called that because you are that and you are ignorant. Your choice.

You should read up on spillover infections and zoonotic pathogens lest other people refer to you as ignorant in the same way you are doing here.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:59 pm

slider wrote:
https://www.axios.com/timeline-the-early-days-of-chinas-coronavirus-outbreak-and-cover-up-ee65211a-afb6-4641-97b8-353718a5faab.html

China's culpability here is growing clearer by the day.



Did you read the article?

Dec. 27: Wuhan health officials are told that a new coronavirus is causing the illness.


......
.......
Dec. 31:

Wuhan health officials confirm 27 cases of illness and close a market they think is related to the virus' spread.
China tells the World Health Organization’s China office about the cases of an unknown illness.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:00 pm

Revelation wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
There is no evidence that the food market is the culprit, rather than some human on that market, that got it somewhere in the wild.

tommy1808 wrote:
On top of that, as mentioned a few posts above, we don´t even have evidence that the virus jumped from animal to human animal on that market rather than some already infected human spreading it there. One third of the initial batch of sick had no relation to that market in any way whatsoever...

Those narratives only exist to put all the blame onto the party that lit the match, but absolutely no blame on the people that watched it smolder, develop into an open fire because they couldn´t be bothered to fetch a bit of water.

tommy1808 wrote:
Again: there is no evidence that Corona cake from that market and plenty that it didn't.

Denial about the source of the outbreak is only going to ensure future outbreaks.


its not denial, the study was published 2 month ago. It is not possible that the market is the source.

edit: of course that doesn´t mean it *can´t* be the source of disease, or that they where not in the past, but this time they where not.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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Revelation
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:07 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
its not denial, the study was published 2 month ago. It is not possible that the market is the source.

Forum rules say to provide links, just like I did.

Also, feel free to address the fact that Chinese officials intimidated the doctors who were reporting the outbreak.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:16 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
There is no evidence that the food market is the culprit, rather than some human on that market, that got it somewhere in the wild.

tommy1808 wrote:
On top of that, as mentioned a few posts above, we don´t even have evidence that the virus jumped from animal to human animal on that market rather than some already infected human spreading it there. One third of the initial batch of sick had no relation to that market in any way whatsoever...

Those narratives only exist to put all the blame onto the party that lit the match, but absolutely no blame on the people that watched it smolder, develop into an open fire because they couldn´t be bothered to fetch a bit of water.

tommy1808 wrote:
Again: there is no evidence that Corona cake from that market and plenty that it didn't.

Denial about the source of the outbreak is only going to ensure future outbreaks.


its not denial, the study was published 2 month ago. It is not possible that the market is the source.

edit: of course that doesn´t mean it *can´t* be the source of disease, or that they where not in the past, but this time they where not.

Best regards
Thomas


I am amazed at the naivete or just the outright defense of the communist dictatorship from the comfort and liberties of an open and democratic nation.
 
GDB
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:57 pm

Slippery slope. Yes the CCP did their knee jerk response, at first. Which soon changed to typically draconian action.
However, this slippery slope, as stated millions affected, even decades later in newborns, by Agent Orange. What about the 1000's killed and terribly injured in Bhophal in 1984 by the Union Carbide plant, where those ultimately responsible were got out and protected by the US Government.
And no doubt numerous other examples, from most nations, if you go back far enough.
'Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone'.
 
rfields5421
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:07 pm

mham001 wrote:
9/11 was not a military action


That is current right wing conservative thought.

But the British did not consider the fighting of the Colonists as military action.

Santa Ana and the Mexican government did not see the rebellion within what became Texas as a legitimate military action.

What added such new unconventional warfare tactics and reasons to the current definition of military action is that those people WON. Military action is very much defined by the winners, not those who suffer from the attack.

The definition of military action keeps getting redefined as groups with fewer resources find ways to attack and cause damage to groups or nations with large resources. In 2003, when my son and his Army battalion were fighting their way from the border to the Baghdad Airport, storied appeared in the US media about unprecedented and 'illegal warfare' tactics of IED's. Never before seen actions in warfare.

Really, the first 'combat deaths' I saw were in Danang in September 1972, which a child about 8 to 10 jumped on a running board of a US Navy pickup truck traveling slowly through the traffic of the city, and threw a local version of a hand grenade into the truck. Two were killed as the child fled into the crowd.

I will be saddened, but I do for see attacks on civilian airliners, cruise ships, hijackings, etc. becoming common place in future conflicts.

mham001 wrote:
Do you disagree with the families and courts that are proceeding against the Saudi government for its role in 9/11 as you do regarding the inevitable court cases against China for its willful negligence?


I did not discuss the Saudi government 'responsibility' in my previous posts. In my understanding, the case is not that the Saudi government actively engaged in creating the attack, planned and supported the attack. But the lack of control on the spending of their citizens, and lack of control over the freedom of communication and movement of their citizens allowed the attack to happen.

I wonder how long it will be before some people in another country sue the US government because that government did not restrict internet access, communications and funds of some US citizen who commits a heinous crime in another country. To me the Saudi lawsuit demands that level of restriction of freedoms for citizens, else the entire national government is responsible for damages.

I cannot tell you my personal opinion of the Saudi government, and its response, because that language would get me banned from this forum for life.

"willful negligence" is a slippery, undefinable term in my opinion. The legal definition of responsibility used to be about either purposeful action, or gross negligence. In the United States, the term has been shifted to the point if anyone suffers a loss, the person, company with the deepest pockets has to pay.

My point, which I probably expressed poorly, is that at least in the United States, our courts, and population, have shifted into a someone must be the blame for everything mode. The conservatives, as well as the liberals, had shouted "What about the victims?" as much or more than liberals.

The push for more executions, etc is the same motivation as the push for damages from every accident.

I do honestly believe there accidents. That is still a valid concept in my mind. Not everything demands 'punishment'.

Re China LEGAL responsibility, and 'willful negligence'

I've seen nothing that represents what I consider a legally definable 'willful negligence'.

Maybe that is an issue for courts to decide. What I did see was I PRESUME, but do not KNOW, to be a lack of preparation, a refusal to admit that the situation was becoming serious.

Frankly, I consider the actions of the group of clowns in the White House, Congress and especially FOX NEWS as crossing the line from 'willful negligence' into 'gross negligence' maybe even active action to encourage the spread of the virus within the US.

I do not see a motivation to cause harm, death, from either the Chinese or the US officials and news media. If anything, a fear of economic disruption that might threaten political power if enough people are infected, impacted.

As much as I decry the pushing the lines of responsibility beyond anything that I see in the history books, I do view the purposeful head in the sand viewpoint that nothing can be allowed to disrupt 'business as usual' as an even greater threat.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:13 pm

GDB wrote:
Slippery slope. Yes the CCP did their knee jerk response, at first. Which soon changed to typically draconian action.
However, this slippery slope, as stated millions affected, even decades later in newborns, by Agent Orange. What about the 1000's killed and terribly injured in Bhophal in 1984 by the Union Carbide plant, where those ultimately responsible were got out and protected by the US Government.
And no doubt numerous other examples, from most nations, if you go back far enough.
'Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone'.

Literally a "what about" response, which conveys as concession of the main point.

Yet I'm not arguing the main point (reparations) should be conceded.

I don't think financial reparations make sense in situations such as global pandemic, centuries of slavery, world wars, etc. There's no feasible way to calculate a correct amount.

I do think reparations in the form of an apology for early inaction and intimidating the doctors who reported the virus is called for, and permanent closure of all wet markets is also appropriate.

I don't think that will happen, though.

Too many egos are engaged.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:26 pm

Revelation wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
its not denial, the study was published 2 month ago. It is not possible that the market is the source.

Forum rules say to provide links, just like I did.


I did up threat... and it would appear to be a case study in conformation bias ...

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanc ... 40-6736(20)30183-5/fulltext

Also, feel free to address the fact that Chinese officials intimidated the doctors who were reporting the outbreak.


it's horrible..... you may have noticed I don't defend that with a single word as it can't be defended.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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Revelation
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:16 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
its not denial, the study was published 2 month ago. It is not possible that the market is the source.

Forum rules say to provide links, just like I did.


I did up threat... and it would appear to be a case study in conformation bias ...

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanc ... 40-6736(20)30183-5/fulltext

Also, feel free to address the fact that Chinese officials intimidated the doctors who were reporting the outbreak.


it's horrible..... you may have noticed I don't defend that with a single word as it can't be defended.

Best regards
Thomas

Ok, the article tells us:

Added value of this study

We report the epidemiological, clinical, laboratory, and radiological characteristics, treatment, and clinical outcomes of 41 laboratory-confirmed cases infected with 2019-nCoV. 27 (66%) of 41 patients had a history of direct exposure to the Huanan seafood market. The median age of patients was 49·0 years (IQR 41·0–58·0), and 13 (32%) patients had underlying disease. All patients had pneumonia. A third of patients were admitted to intensive care units, and six died. High concentrations of cytokines were recorded in plasma of critically ill patients infected with 2019-nCoV.

Implications of all the available evidence

2019-nCoV caused clusters of fatal pneumonia with clinical presentation greatly resembling SARS-CoV. Patients infected with 2019-nCoV might develop acute respiratory distress syndrome, have a high likelihood of admission to intensive care, and might die. The cytokine storm could be associated with disease severity. More efforts should be made to know the whole spectrum and pathophysiology of the new disease.

I'm not seeing how this supports your assertion "Again: there is no evidence that Corona cake from that market and plenty that it didn't.".
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:31 pm

Revelation wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Forum rules say to provide links, just like I did.


I did up threat... and it would appear to be a case study in conformation bias ...

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanc ... 40-6736(20)30183-5/fulltext

Also, feel free to address the fact that Chinese officials intimidated the doctors who were reporting the outbreak.


it's horrible..... you may have noticed I don't defend that with a single word as it can't be defended.

Best regards
Thomas

Ok, the article tells us:

Added value of this study

We report the epidemiological, clinical, laboratory, and radiological characteristics, treatment, and clinical outcomes of 41 laboratory-confirmed cases infected with 2019-nCoV. 27 (66%) of 41 patients had a history of direct exposure to the Huanan seafood market. The median age of patients was 49·0 years (IQR 41·0–58·0), and 13 (32%) patients had underlying disease. All patients had pneumonia. A third of patients were admitted to intensive care units, and six died. High concentrations of cytokines were recorded in plasma of critically ill patients infected with 2019-nCoV.

Implications of all the available evidence

2019-nCoV caused clusters of fatal pneumonia with clinical presentation greatly resembling SARS-CoV. Patients infected with 2019-nCoV might develop acute respiratory distress syndrome, have a high likelihood of admission to intensive care, and might die. The cytokine storm could be associated with disease severity. More efforts should be made to know the whole spectrum and pathophysiology of the new disease.

I'm not seeing how this supports your assertion "Again: there is no evidence that Corona cake from that market and plenty that it didn't.".


Unless 100% of the infected had connections to the market, the market can't be the source.

If everyone got their ipod from Walmart, Walmart may be the source for iPods, if just one person got an ipod somewhere else, Walmart can't be the source, there has to be an apple.

And what the hell, would *anything* change if two people got it hunting for the same bats? One took it home to cook, one to the market. Heck, the first guy may have taken it to another wet market, just that no cluster arose from it, so it went undetected.

Best regards
Thomas
 
GDB
Posts: 14396
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
GDB wrote:
Slippery slope. Yes the CCP did their knee jerk response, at first. Which soon changed to typically draconian action.
However, this slippery slope, as stated millions affected, even decades later in newborns, by Agent Orange. What about the 1000's killed and terribly injured in Bhophal in 1984 by the Union Carbide plant, where those ultimately responsible were got out and protected by the US Government.
And no doubt numerous other examples, from most nations, if you go back far enough.
'Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone'.

Literally a "what about" response, which conveys as concession of the main point.

Yet I'm not arguing the main point (reparations) should be conceded.

I don't think financial reparations make sense in situations such as global pandemic, centuries of slavery, world wars, etc. There's no feasible way to calculate a correct amount.

I do think reparations in the form of an apology for early inaction and intimidating the doctors who reported the virus is called for, and permanent closure of all wet markets is also appropriate.

I don't think that will happen, though.

Too many egos are engaged.


But 'what about' will be the first question posed by any official call for reparations from China.
The CCP and especially, President For Life Maximum Psycho Panda, are far more fearful of internal dissent and disorder than many seem to think. They are not all powerful and they know it. That another virus, related to previous strains that have emerged from that part of the world before, has this time had a massive global effect, won't be lost on them. They dropped the ball with wet markets and other practices after SARS and Swine Flu but if you like, got away with it.

This time however, a major CCP foul up has not created large scale disruption just inside China, unlike say the 'Great Leap Forward' or 'Cultural Revolution', both with much higher body counts internally, they rode out international condemnation after the 1989 massacres of unarmed civilians too. Now it's gone global and the sense of loss of prestige will be painfully felt.
That international prestige and sense of being on top of things at home, the blows to those are to them at least, beyond monetary calculations.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14664
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:04 pm

GDB wrote:
Revelation wrote:
GDB wrote:
Slippery slope. Yes the CCP did their knee jerk response, at first. Which soon changed to typically draconian action.
However, this slippery slope, as stated millions affected, even decades later in newborns, by Agent Orange. What about the 1000's killed and terribly injured in Bhophal in 1984 by the Union Carbide plant, where those ultimately responsible were got out and protected by the US Government.
And no doubt numerous other examples, from most nations, if you go back far enough.
'Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone'.

Literally a "what about" response, which conveys as concession of the main point.

Yet I'm not arguing the main point (reparations) should be conceded.

I don't think financial reparations make sense in situations such as global pandemic, centuries of slavery, world wars, etc. There's no feasible way to calculate a correct amount.

I do think reparations in the form of an apology for early inaction and intimidating the doctors who reported the virus is called for, and permanent closure of all wet markets is also appropriate.

I don't think that will happen, though.

Too many egos are engaged.


But 'what about' will be the first question posed by any official call for reparations from China.
The CCP and especially, President For Life Maximum Psycho Panda, are far more fearful of internal dissent and disorder than many seem to think. They are not all powerful and they know it.


:checkmark:
You don't need the perfect surveillance state if your citizens like you.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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Tugger
Posts: 11482
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:06 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Unless 100% of the infected had connections to the market, the market can't be the source.

That is wholly inaccurate statement. It equally means they may not be able to trace all early cases back to origin due to inability to connect one case or another to a chain of incidents to the market. But that does not mean they did not all come from there.

I can't prove the big bang actually happened but I can make a damned good case that it did.

Tugg
 
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Revelation
Posts: 26711
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:07 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Unless 100% of the infected had connections to the market, the market can't be the source.

If everyone got their ipod from Walmart, Walmart may be the source for iPods, if just one person got an ipod somewhere else, Walmart can't be the source, there has to be an apple.

And what the hell, would *anything* change if two people got it hunting for the same bats? One took it home to cook, one to the market.

Best regards
Thomas

Ok, I see the logic, but the report is not providing the evidence that the 1/3rd who said they had no connection to the market truly didn't, or that they had a connection they didn't realize was a connection, or any presumed predecessor event didn't occur at the market.

What it says is:

27 (66%) patients had direct exposure to Huanan seafood market (figure 1B). Market exposure was similar between the patients with ICU care (nine [69%]) and those with non-ICU care (18 [64%]). The symptom onset date of the first patient identified was Dec 1, 2019. None of his family members developed fever or any respiratory symptoms. No epidemiological link was found between the first patient and later cases. The first fatal case, who had continuous exposure to the market, was admitted to hospital because of a 7-day history of fever, cough, and dyspnoea. 5 days after illness onset, his wife, a 53-year-old woman who had no known history of exposure to the market, also presented with pneumonia and was hospitalised in the isolation ward.

All it's saying is 2/3rds have known/admitted connections to the market, not that the 1/3 are ruled out from having connections to the market. It seems pretty specious to give an allowance of lack of exposure to the wife of victim 1, which is what they seem to be doing.

Nothing would change if this came from two people hunting bats. In particular one thing that would not change is that humans should not be eating bats. The population at large is vulnerable to avian flu as the current crisis shows and as did the previous SARS event showed. The wet markets should be closed. One would hope this is something the Chinese government could accomplish.
 
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Pellegrine
Posts: 2678
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:29 am

Revelation wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
Calling out potential health hazards in any part of the globe is not "racist".

Now is the time for the whole world to rethink its food safety system.

Maybe the US should do that too? Guess what? Every time you hear about a "food-borne illness" we call that a "fecal-anal route illness". Meaning someone picking your romaine lettuce in Salinas, CA SHIT IN THE FIELD OF LETTUCE and then picked it so you could eat a salad. No one gives vegetable/fruit pickers proper breaks...there are not restrooms close enough to where they work, etc.

Then the US has stupid laws too like...some states making it illegal to "defame" the agriculture industry and how dirty they really are.

Also, it is never the job of someone else to open your own eyes to racism and prejudice. Do it yourself. Read. Meet new people. Or get offended when you get called that because you are that and you are ignorant. Your choice.

You should read up on spillover infections and zoonotic pathogens lest other people refer to you as ignorant in the same way you are doing here.


Try me another day. I know far more than you do about the subject. If you're going to come at me you're going to have to try harder than that.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:13 am

These discussions will just go around in circles - until then, there just isn’t enough definitive evidence of what was known when, and where in the PRC.

What we do know is the west got caught with its pants down and public health experts watched their first weeks’ warnings go unheeded. No excuse - Bill Gates was warning about this six years ago:

https://youtu.be/6Af6b_wyiwI
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14664
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:50 am

Aaron747 wrote:
These discussions will just go around in circles - until then, there just isn’t enough definitive evidence of what was known when, and where in the PRC.


:checkmark:
In a year or so we can start analyzing which cause of action was the most effective one.

best regards
Thomas
 
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Tugger
Posts: 11482
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:49 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
These discussions will just go around in circles - until then, there just isn’t enough definitive evidence of what was known when, and where in the PRC.

Well there is also a lot of evidence of China now actively deploying its propaganda tools to sow confusion about the virus starting there. Circles are fine, and ultimately they will circle back to China based on everything known.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwqhvRcBrK4

Tugg
 
KFTG
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:01 pm

Trump is using the term "Chinese virus" to deflect responsibility away from him and his administration. That being said, it seems like every ~5 years or so there is another pandemic that emerges from China's bush meat market and/or the Chinese "medicine" industry. Last time around, they cracked down on the bush meat industry but then the restrictions were lifted, as I understand it. And here we are again - rinse and repeat. They should be held accountable, somehow. The response should be unified among the int'l community and not unilateral, as that would be too antagonistic.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1423
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:02 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
These discussions will just go around in circles - until then, there just isn’t enough definitive evidence of what was known when, and where in the PRC.

What we do know is the west got caught with its pants down and public health experts watched their first weeks’ warnings go unheeded. No excuse - Bill Gates was warning about this six years ago:

https://youtu.be/6Af6b_wyiwI


WHO has a lot of blame here, many countries take at face value what the UN and WHO says and since the start they were hesitating on sounding the alarm till the last minute, more worried about feelings and words than anything else.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:40 pm

As was initially feared - mutations are on the move and researchers are trying to keep up. This is evolving to a multiple-front battle beyond just location and resources.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectious ... id19/85500
 
KFTG
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:43 pm

Mutations are not necessarily a bad thing, if the virus mutates into something less severe.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8327
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:56 pm

bhill wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Either this came from an accidental laboratory release in China, which was built out of military ambition and not classic science. Alternatively, this virus came from a crazy dangerous illegal food market, and China struggles with that.

Either way, this is highly embarrassing for China. China is fairly civilized in many ways. They are getting food safety and laboratory quarantine figured out. They are trying. If it is the lab, then that is especially damning. It's China's Chernobyl in that case and should lead to deep political reforms. If it was an illegal market, then they need to get serious about that. The US got serious about food safety 100 years ago or so.


The wildlife market has a huge lobby in China. IIRC wet markets were shut down after SARS and the ban wasn't indefinite and was allowed shortly after.

What other nations need to do is not rely on China to manufacture everything especially medical supplies. China is actually holding the west hostage as they produce most of the generic pharmaceuticals and medical equipment the world. One is that they shut down if affects all of us but they then hold these exports hostage when we regulate or are suspect of a company like Huawei.



Bullshit, China is not holding ANYONE hostage. It's the CEO's of the companies that have off shored the labor to make their products cheaper from wages and higher for dividends that cause this. And China should be embarrassed, as this was completely preventable if they would join the rest of the first world on public sanitation....


You might read this on why China has a hold on manufacturing

https://money.cnn.com/2012/10/17/techno ... ina-jobs/;
 
KFTG
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:57 pm

Trump again refers to it as a "Chinese virus".
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8327
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:58 pm

KFTG wrote:
Trump is using the term "Chinese virus" to deflect responsibility away from him and his administration. That being said, it seems like every ~5 years or so there is another pandemic that emerges from China's bush meat market and/or the Chinese "medicine" industry. Last time around, they cracked down on the bush meat industry but then the restrictions were lifted, as I understand it. And here we are again - rinse and repeat. They should be held accountable, somehow. The response should be unified among the int'l community and not unilateral, as that would be too antagonistic.


Your own post refutes your claim on Trump. It came from China, established fact, why the reluctance to state that fact and call it, as we have for generations, by the its origin’s name?
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1423
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:59 pm

KFTG wrote:
Trump again refers to it as a "Chinese virus".


And the woke crowd will continue to be offended for saying the truth.
 
KFTG
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:03 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Your own post refutes your claim on Trump. It came from China, established fact, why the reluctance to state that fact and call it, as we have for generations, by the its origin’s name?

There is no disputing where it came from, and I agree with you. But calling it that is counter-productive and unnecessary. If you are referring to the Spanish Flu, you may be surprised to learn that it likely did not originate in Spain, rather military camps in Kansas. But I digress.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1423
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:09 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
KFTG wrote:
Trump is using the term "Chinese virus" to deflect responsibility away from him and his administration. That being said, it seems like every ~5 years or so there is another pandemic that emerges from China's bush meat market and/or the Chinese "medicine" industry. Last time around, they cracked down on the bush meat industry but then the restrictions were lifted, as I understand it. And here we are again - rinse and repeat. They should be held accountable, somehow. The response should be unified among the int'l community and not unilateral, as that would be too antagonistic.


Your own post refutes your claim on Trump. It came from China, established fact, why the reluctance to state that fact and call it, as we have for generations, by the its origin’s name?


The woke crowd needs to feel good by virtue signaling all the while millions lose their jobs thousands die, they are worried a about offending China.

People are angry not at the Chinese people but at their criminal government which is directly responsible for hiding the truth about this for months and now we are living this situation.

All of this outrage for calling it what it is is making Trump look more popular which is causing the opposite of their intended effect.
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:10 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Lots of people showing their racism in this thread. Brought all the racists out. Noted.


Calling out potential health hazards in any part of the globe is not "racist".

Now is the time for the whole world to rethink its food safety system.


Maybe the US should do that too? Guess what? Every time you hear about a "food-borne illness" we call that a "fecal-anal route illness". Meaning someone picking your romaine lettuce in Salinas, CA SHIT IN THE FIELD OF LETTUCE and then picked it so you could eat a salad. No one gives vegetable/fruit pickers proper breaks...there are not restrooms close enough to where they work, etc.

Then the US has stupid laws too like...some states making it illegal to "defame" the agriculture industry and how dirty they really are.

Also, it is never the job of someone else to open your own eyes to racism and prejudice. Do it yourself. Read. Meet new people. Or get offended when you get called that because you are that and you are ignorant. Your choice.


Chinese is NOT a race. I was just going to pass on your race-baiting but you don't know what racism is. By your definition, no white person can criticize a 'person of color'. Sorry, that is not going to happen. This is especially ironic because Chinese and Asians in general are about the most racist societies on earth. They generally look down on everybody. I know this first hand having lived with a Chinese-American for years and marrying an Asian and spending considerable time on the continent. Your claim about "American" racism is simply you looking for something to bash easy the US, any well traveled person will tell you the US is one of the LEAST racist societies on earth. Take this crap somewhere else.

BTW, farm workers do indeed have toilets and wash facilities available in the fields. Your ignorance is profound.
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:24 pm

KFTG wrote:
Trump is using the term "Chinese virus" to deflect responsibility away from him and his administration. .


I think it has more to do with China claiming it started with a US soldier. According to the EU, Russia is also sowing misinformation.
 
KFTG
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:55 pm

For what it's worth, I agree with you. But what worries me are Chinese Americans or immigrants from China living in the US being targeted.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16000
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:08 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
KFTG wrote:
Trump is using the term "Chinese virus" to deflect responsibility away from him and his administration. That being said, it seems like every ~5 years or so there is another pandemic that emerges from China's bush meat market and/or the Chinese "medicine" industry. Last time around, they cracked down on the bush meat industry but then the restrictions were lifted, as I understand it. And here we are again - rinse and repeat. They should be held accountable, somehow. The response should be unified among the int'l community and not unilateral, as that would be too antagonistic.


Your own post refutes your claim on Trump. It came from China, established fact, why the reluctance to state that fact and call it, as we have for generations, by the its origin’s name?


The woke crowd needs to feel good by virtue signaling all the while millions lose their jobs thousands die, they are worried a about offending China.

People are angry not at the Chinese people but at their criminal government which is directly responsible for hiding the truth about this for months and now we are living this situation.

All of this outrage for calling it what it is is making Trump look more popular which is causing the opposite of their intended effect.


Some of us oppose this language because it’s unscientific, not because it ‘offends’ anyone. Viruses by definition cannot be described with human geographic limitations, because they don’t care. They are genetic wanderers and they use whatever compatible vectors are available, anywhere - period.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1423
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:23 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Your own post refutes your claim on Trump. It came from China, established fact, why the reluctance to state that fact and call it, as we have for generations, by the its origin’s name?


The woke crowd needs to feel good by virtue signaling all the while millions lose their jobs thousands die, they are worried a about offending China.

People are angry not at the Chinese people but at their criminal government which is directly responsible for hiding the truth about this for months and now we are living this situation.

All of this outrage for calling it what it is is making Trump look more popular which is causing the opposite of their intended effect.


Some of us oppose this language because it’s unscientific, not because it ‘offends’ anyone. Viruses by definition cannot be described with human geographic limitations, because they don’t care. They are genetic wanderers and they use whatever compatible vectors are available, anywhere - period.


Well, if you have the CCP propaganda arm spreading conspiracy theories that our men and women in uniform spread corona virus, then you need to call things as they are.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:33 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

The woke crowd needs to feel good by virtue signaling all the while millions lose their jobs thousands die, they are worried a about offending China.

People are angry not at the Chinese people but at their criminal government which is directly responsible for hiding the truth about this for months and now we are living this situation.

All of this outrage for calling it what it is is making Trump look more popular which is causing the opposite of their intended effect.


Some of us oppose this language because it’s unscientific, not because it ‘offends’ anyone. Viruses by definition cannot be described with human geographic limitations, because they don’t care. They are genetic wanderers and they use whatever compatible vectors are available, anywhere - period.


Well, if you have the CCP propaganda arm spreading conspiracy theories that our men and women in uniform spread corona virus, then you need to call things as they are.


That makes no sense - the CCP’s media arm will color whatever our response is however they want so what we say is irrelevant for their domestic consumption.
 
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Tugger
Posts: 11482
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Should China Pay Reparations for COVID-19?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:39 pm

I find it ridiculous that otherwise intelligent people, who post here, are not able to comprehend that the prolem with "Chinese" is that it is not a country, it is a race/ethnicity/identity of a group of people. Hell, even "China virus" would be better but still inaccurate in since the world has (seriously) moved on from naming diseases after a country. Really it is maybe children that would do that, petulant children in fact.

But "the base" loves it so the base is going to parrot it. They may understand and normally be fine with standard naming conventions but they just want to "follow the leader" and not think or care and instead revel in the protestations of others. That is what followers do, they are helpless to change for fear of not being part of the pack anymore.

Tugg

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