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VS11
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill

Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:05 am

Mightyflyer86 wrote:
VS11 wrote:
Mightyflyer86 wrote:

Can you substantiate your claim?


U.S. ends TARP with $15.3 billion profit

https://money.cnn.com/2014/12/19/news/c ... louts-end/



Let’s see how much the US government can recover on this one since stock valuations are a lot higher now compared to 2008-2015.


The Government doesn’t have to buy at market prices. Not to mention that in the past 1 month The big 3 have lost 50% or more of their market prices.
 
Mightyflyer86
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill

Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:11 am

VS11 wrote:
Mightyflyer86 wrote:
VS11 wrote:

U.S. ends TARP with $15.3 billion profit

https://money.cnn.com/2014/12/19/news/c ... louts-end/



Let’s see how much the US government can recover on this one since stock valuations are a lot higher now compared to 2008-2015.


The Government doesn’t have to buy at market prices. Not to mention that in the past 1 month The big 3 have lost 50% or more of their market prices.


Big 3 stock will continue to lose value, instead of using a small chunk of the huge profits over the past 4-5 years to at least build a safety net, they chose to do something else. Well too bad for them unless of course Uncle Sam comes to the rescue.
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill

Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:13 am

panamair wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
Water under the bridge, but don't you think the airlines were taking their cue from Boeings playbook? Massive stock buybacks to generate huge paydays for management and Wall Street?

Now they are all hat in hand. Jeez...$43Billion in buybacks and $17Billion in dividends Boeing spent in a 6yr period 2013-2019! Bet they wish they had kept a big chunk ha??


It's not just Boeing or the airlines...it's CORPORATE AMERICA. You guys have an issue with CAPITALISM in America. It's so easy to blame shareholders but under the Capitalist system, shareholders are key; who do you think provides the CAPITAL in capitalism? And lest we forget, many employees are shareholders as well. Share buybacks benefit all shareholders, be they employees, grandmas, management or institutional investors...


This is the most comical response yet. Management does a poor job of maintaining reserves in a highly cyclical industry and they're not to blame. And what portion of capital did the current investors provide directly to capitalizing the business? Do you know?
 
AndyW35
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill

Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:36 am

The gov bailed out lots of greedy banks in 2009, capitalision second fiddle to state intervention.

Seems know we are going the same way.

Boeing crying out for money after giving all that money away to shareholders ..
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill

Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:59 am

The best solution for citizens financially at this point would be putting a hold on mortgage and rent payments until the worst of this is over.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Aesma
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill

Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:27 am

planecane wrote:
The airlines pay the employees. Are you suggesting the government should pay all airline employees their salary to do nothing?

This is unprecedented. The governments made the decision to essentially shut down certain parts of the economy.


That's what's happening in France. The government is paying all salaries up to 2,5 times minimum wage, which in France is significant since minimum wage is high, and high salaries are relatively rare. Not just for airlines, but for any company that asks for it and puts its employees on "forced vacation", basically.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill

Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:26 am

Boeing Co. said it was seeking at least $60 billion to aid the U.S. aerospace industry as the plane maker, its suppliers and airline customers face fallout from the growing coronavirus crisis.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-ask ... 1584489179

60 billion in aid, to bridge what, 6 months?
What a shameless display.

Image

https://www.toonpool.com/cartoons/beggar_41460
 
planecane
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill

Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:33 am

Aesma wrote:
planecane wrote:
The airlines pay the employees. Are you suggesting the government should pay all airline employees their salary to do nothing?

This is unprecedented. The governments made the decision to essentially shut down certain parts of the economy.


That's what's happening in France. The government is paying all salaries up to 2,5 times minimum wage, which in France is significant since minimum wage is high, and high salaries are relatively rare. Not just for airlines, but for any company that asks for it and puts its employees on "forced vacation", basically.


I'm talking about after the world shutdown ends. The post I replied to said that we should bail out employees, not airlines. The question I posed was referring to the period when sanity is restored.
 
airbazar
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill

Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:51 am

Squeezix wrote:
Atlwarrior wrote:
dallasnewark wrote:
There is no need for the bail out. If the airline was too shortsighted in using all the profits for equity buyback to increase the share prices, they deserve to be out of business. If there is a demand or need, a new company will emerge


I absolutely agree. All those years of airline profits, something should have been set aside for a high-risk event.


And how many hundreds of thousands of jobs will be lost because of this attitude?


And whose decision was it to spread the panic and lock everything down?
I am 100% against an airline bailout.
 
Cedar
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill

Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:18 pm

airbazar wrote:
Squeezix wrote:
Atlwarrior wrote:

I absolutely agree. All those years of airline profits, something should have been set aside for a high-risk event.


And how many hundreds of thousands of jobs will be lost because of this attitude?


And whose decision was it to spread the panic and lock everything down?
I am 100% against an airline bailout.


Exactly the point - it was the gov't who shutdown the travel essentially. Telling people don't fly, closing down borders, banning certain countries. Gov't shut it down, gov't sending assistance.
If nothing was shut down & demand dropped on it's own - then I can understand no assistance. However, the gov't intervened.

Cedar
 
drew777
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill

Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:54 pm

Until all repurchased shares are reissued and all lines of credit have have been exhausted there should be no talk of bailout. Especially Boeing, who continued to piss money away on stock buybacks well into the Max fiasco.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:25 pm

Just to clarify — the OP had intended for this discussion to be regarding the bailout bill in the US. Since there are fundamental differences with a possible bailout in Europe, I would recommend users creating a different topic for that discussion to avoid confusion.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:38 am

Airlines appear to come up short in bid to win cash grants in rescue package

WASHINGTON/CHICAGO (Reuters) - A last-ditch effort by the chief executives of major U.S. airlines to try to win cash grants to weather the coronavirus crisis looked to be unsuccessful, four congressional aides and airline officials said late Saturday.

Airlines had made a last ditch plea urging that $29 billion of $58 billion sought in assistance for airlines be in the form of cash grants. They had offered not to make any job cuts through Aug. 31 if they won the cash and to accept restrictions on executive pay and to forgo paying dividends or stock buybacks.

The CEOs of 10 U.S. passenger and cargo carriers had said in a letter that without direct cash assistance, "draconian measures" such as furloughs may be necessary.

Senate Republicans hope to unveil the text of the rescue and stimulus package Sunday that could total $1.6 trillion and is set to include $50 billion in collateralized loan and loan guarantees for passenger airlines and $8 billion for cargo carriers. Senate Democratic Leader Charles Schumer said there was still "no deal," so it is possible the final airline provisions could change in negotiations.

Senator John Thune, the Senate's No. 2 Republican, said earlier airline grants were not winning backing "at this point, I don't sense support for it here or with the administration. But like I said, nothing is done."

Airlines are expected to soon turn their attention to applying for government collateralized loans and the terms the legislation will include. The initial Republican plan said the U.S. Treasury could demand stock, warrants or options as part of any airline loans.

The global coronavirus outbreak has forced airlines to cancel tens of thousands of flights and resulted in massive revenue losses. On Saturday, United Airlines said it was canceling 90% of its international flights in April.

United, Delta Air Lines, American Airlines Group, FedEx, Southwest Airlines Co, UPS and others warned in their letter to lawmakers on Saturday that "time is running out."


https://news.yahoo.com/major-u-airlines ... 10554.html


I think that the US lawmakers are coming with a very reasonable package here.
Cash grants would have been outrageous, thankfully those seem to be ruled out.

Low interest loans with warrants/options attached seem to be a very reasonable solution at this time. Either that or high interest loans with no strings attached.
I also think that temporary unemployment measures can be allowed, ie the government covering the first 2000USD a month of any laid-off employee's salary, anything on top of that at the airline's discretion with some of it redeemable through tax credits.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:59 am

Cash grants for the airlines would be OK with me only if they were to be purposed for payroll and immediate needs like securing mothballing facilities.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:50 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Cash grants for the airlines would be OK with me only if they were to be purposed for payroll and immediate needs like securing mothballing facilities.


I don't think that airlines can be trusted to purpose them for payroll or any specific urgent needs. For instance, how can you guarantee that airlines won't use these funds to take over a competitor, or to try to get ahead of competitors when things start going back to normal?
In addition, it's not realistic for airlines to maintain a full payroll or anything close to that, and it's impossible to quantify the needs of each airline.
For instance, I don't think that the goal is for the taxpayer to pay out so that airlines can keep paying senior captains 300K a year for doing nothing, so they can in turn pay off their million dollar mansion.

It makes more sense to let employees fall back on (new) government welfare plans where employees are paid enough to get by, nothing more, nothing less.
This will have to be applied to other industries anyway so why make an exception for airlines?
If you start granting cash to airlines, everyone else will ask for cash grants and soon you will have a huge mess.

We have to keep in perspective that this is temporary.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:53 am

What you propose is logical. ‘Basic needs payroll’ backed by government funds, coupled with a moratorium on mortgage and rent payments would cushion the blow for some time. Landlords always complain ‘what if I have no mortgage!’ when rent moratorium is suggested, so they should be eligible for a property tax credit if they are carrying no debt but have fixed upkeep expenses that can’t be covered without rental income.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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stl07
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:52 am

I'm worried about smaller airlines like Cape air and air choice one. Would they get assistance too?
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:04 pm

If they are going to give "everyone a check", then include two provisions in the bill:
1.) Anyone who accept it also agrees to a 2% to their tax rate starting in 2022 for 10 (8?) years
2.) Whether the "handout" is accepted or not, incomes over $1M and any bonuses over $75,000 in value will have an additional 3% tax applied for the same period +2years (to account for people that will shift such windfalls as much as possible to be after the tax expires)

If anyone wonders why I am recommending to "unfairly tax higher earners" it is because wealthy people are always direct beneficiaries of successful economic stimulus and we ALL MUST PARTICIPATE.

Any plan for stimulus now needs to include a plan to recover from the stimulus once done. And I think the markets will ultimately reacts very well to any plan that shows that.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Aesma
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill

Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:52 am

Cedar wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Squeezix wrote:

And how many hundreds of thousands of jobs will be lost because of this attitude?


And whose decision was it to spread the panic and lock everything down?
I am 100% against an airline bailout.


Exactly the point - it was the gov't who shutdown the travel essentially. Telling people don't fly, closing down borders, banning certain countries. Gov't shut it down, gov't sending assistance.
If nothing was shut down & demand dropped on it's own - then I can understand no assistance. However, the gov't intervened.

Cedar


You can also argue that airlines are the one who spread the virus, they could have shut down flights early, and stop its spread.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Cedar
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:26 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Cash grants for the airlines would be OK with me only if they were to be purposed for payroll and immediate needs like securing mothballing facilities.


I don't think that airlines can be trusted to purpose them for payroll or any specific urgent needs. For instance, how can you guarantee that airlines won't use these funds to take over a competitor, or to try to get ahead of competitors when things start going back to normal?
In addition, it's not realistic for airlines to maintain a full payroll or anything close to that, and it's impossible to quantify the needs of each airline.
For instance, I don't think that the goal is for the taxpayer to pay out so that airlines can keep paying senior captains 300K a year for doing nothing, so they can in turn pay off their million dollar mansion.

It makes more sense to let employees fall back on (new) government welfare plans where employees are paid enough to get by, nothing more, nothing less.
This will have to be applied to other industries anyway so why make an exception for airlines?
If you start granting cash to airlines, everyone else will ask for cash grants and soon you will have a huge mess.

We have to keep in perspective that this is temporary.


The airlines have guaranteed to delay furloughs until at the very least Aug 31st (if even needed) if an aid package is given. A letter was sent to the gov't signed by all the airlines promising this.

Cedar
 
nwadeicer
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:31 am

Hey now, Delta CEO Ed Bastian just recently said he was forgoing 6 months of his salary for the year. The Delta people now think he can walk on water. I initially thought that he had donated a kidney what with all the hallelujah's and praise the CEO! coming out. Nah, he's foregoing a little over 300 grand, from a combined over 13 million dollar compensation package he gets for the year. What a guy!
I miss the Red Tail
 
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seb146
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:16 pm

We workers propping up these multi-billion dollar industries and barely scraping by are supposed to have a savings plan for something like this but corporations run to the government and demand massive bailouts when even a hint of something bad comes.

Maybe if corporations didn't blow all their money on avocado toast and PBR.....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:38 pm

Just reported on TV that there is considerations for possibly bringing in some of the quarantined individuals in hazmat suits to get the bill passed. The optics of such a thing would surely be shown in tv ads the rest of the year.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:04 pm

This tread has gotten long so I apologize if my question has been ask already...will the United States government start printing money just to cover all of the bailouts, checks to every adult American...etc?
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:32 pm

The whole "bail out the workers not the companies" line is very confusing to me. I mean it sounds good and all but what, we're going to pay workers full salaries long term while they're unemployed because their companies go under? Businesses will be able to pay workers much longer than constant bailouts from the feds because they'll actually be selling goods and services and stimulating the economy

That being said, I do agree they should provide one or two (not permanent) payments to Americans to help bridge the gap.

And I think money to businesses should be loans and not gifts... Strings should be attached too. We can criticize them for how they handled their profits over the last few years but letting them go under and smirking because the rich guys mismanaged money isn't going to help the employees out very much...


I'm very dissatisfied with how Congress has been handling this bill. One time measures only. No pork. Don't favor certain companies, don't exclude certain companies. No unrelated crap or permanent changes.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:34 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
This tread has gotten long so I apologize if my question has been ask already...will the United States government start printing money just to cover all of the bailouts, checks to every adult American...etc?

Start? :rotfl: The USA hasn't stopped printing money for decades.

How do you think you get $24 TRILLION in debt?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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seb146
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:04 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
The whole "bail out the workers not the companies" line is very confusing to me. I mean it sounds good and all but what, we're going to pay workers full salaries long term while they're unemployed because their companies go under? Businesses will be able to pay workers much longer than constant bailouts from the feds because they'll actually be selling goods and services and stimulating the economy

That being said, I do agree they should provide one or two (not permanent) payments to Americans to help bridge the gap.

And I think money to businesses should be loans and not gifts... Strings should be attached too. We can criticize them for how they handled their profits over the last few years but letting them go under and smirking because the rich guys mismanaged money isn't going to help the employees out very much...


I'm very dissatisfied with how Congress has been handling this bill. One time measures only. No pork. Don't favor certain companies, don't exclude certain companies. No unrelated crap or permanent changes.


Store checkers, stockers, cooks, delivery drivers, flight attendants are all constantly at thread of being exposed and possibly being hospitalized. Many of us do not have health care because we can not afford it. Without us, there is no reason for those CEOs or board members to be. A few of them must be saved but the many of us on the front lines can get stuffed. That is what Republicans are saying.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:32 am

seb146 wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
The whole "bail out the workers not the companies" line is very confusing to me. I mean it sounds good and all but what, we're going to pay workers full salaries long term while they're unemployed because their companies go under? Businesses will be able to pay workers much longer than constant bailouts from the feds because they'll actually be selling goods and services and stimulating the economy

That being said, I do agree they should provide one or two (not permanent) payments to Americans to help bridge the gap.

And I think money to businesses should be loans and not gifts... Strings should be attached too. We can criticize them for how they handled their profits over the last few years but letting them go under and smirking because the rich guys mismanaged money isn't going to help the employees out very much...


I'm very dissatisfied with how Congress has been handling this bill. One time measures only. No pork. Don't favor certain companies, don't exclude certain companies. No unrelated crap or permanent changes.


Store checkers, stockers, cooks, delivery drivers, flight attendants are all constantly at thread of being exposed and possibly being hospitalized. Many of us do not have health care because we can not afford it. Without us, there is no reason for those CEOs or board members to be. A few of them must be saved but the many of us on the front lines can get stuffed. That is what Republicans are saying.

They are?

They're actually going against their usual mantra of "handouts" and are spending hundreds of billions to give checks out to the workers.

But let's be real, the workers aren't gonna have jobs if their companies go under. I don't know why that's so controversial. Again, it's not like we're depositing billions into the checking accounts of CEOs

Would you rather have 12 months of 100% of your paycheck or your current job surviving? And that's kinda being too optimistic, 12 months with 100% pay is more than is being offered by even the Dems, I think.

Of course millions of workers have immediate needs. That's why there is talk of checks being given out. Again, props to the GOP for not making a stand against this "socialist UBI handout" or some other nonsense

Now I don't know what pork, or any, the GOP is trying to load in. If they are, point me to it. But from what I've seen from the Dems, I'm not impressed. This is NOT the time to push for sweeping reform... Debate that later
 
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seb146
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:55 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
The whole "bail out the workers not the companies" line is very confusing to me. I mean it sounds good and all but what, we're going to pay workers full salaries long term while they're unemployed because their companies go under? Businesses will be able to pay workers much longer than constant bailouts from the feds because they'll actually be selling goods and services and stimulating the economy

That being said, I do agree they should provide one or two (not permanent) payments to Americans to help bridge the gap.

And I think money to businesses should be loans and not gifts... Strings should be attached too. We can criticize them for how they handled their profits over the last few years but letting them go under and smirking because the rich guys mismanaged money isn't going to help the employees out very much...


I'm very dissatisfied with how Congress has been handling this bill. One time measures only. No pork. Don't favor certain companies, don't exclude certain companies. No unrelated crap or permanent changes.


Store checkers, stockers, cooks, delivery drivers, flight attendants are all constantly at thread of being exposed and possibly being hospitalized. Many of us do not have health care because we can not afford it. Without us, there is no reason for those CEOs or board members to be. A few of them must be saved but the many of us on the front lines can get stuffed. That is what Republicans are saying.

They are?

They're actually going against their usual mantra of "handouts" and are spending hundreds of billions to give checks out to the workers.


At the same time, Republicans are saying "meh... life? who cares? If they die, they die." The party of life is saying this.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 905990001/
https://www.salon.com/2020/03/19/republ ... 9_partner/
https://thehill.com/changing-america/re ... virus-bill
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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par13del
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:38 pm

It seem to be amounts starting at $1,200.00 if at $75k annual, so how many months of no employment does that equate to, one or two months, does it give an indication that the politicians are thinking 2 months shutdown at the most?
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:14 pm

seb146 wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Store checkers, stockers, cooks, delivery drivers, flight attendants are all constantly at thread of being exposed and possibly being hospitalized. Many of us do not have health care because we can not afford it. Without us, there is no reason for those CEOs or board members to be. A few of them must be saved but the many of us on the front lines can get stuffed. That is what Republicans are saying.

They are?

They're actually going against their usual mantra of "handouts" and are spending hundreds of billions to give checks out to the workers.


At the same time, Republicans are saying "meh... life? who cares? If they die, they die." The party of life is saying this.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 905990001/
https://www.salon.com/2020/03/19/republ ... 9_partner/
https://thehill.com/changing-america/re ... virus-bill

Ok, the GOP continues to do things I disagree with. What does that have to do with 1: maybe we should help companies because without companies you don't have jobs and without jobs you don't have a paycheck and 2: the GOP, for it's many, many flaws is actually pushing to give free paychecks to the workers?

I don't like your unrelated deflection. I'm not sure how any of what you posted addresses my points I just mentioned
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:16 pm

seb146 wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Store checkers, stockers, cooks, delivery drivers, flight attendants are all constantly at thread of being exposed and possibly being hospitalized. Many of us do not have health care because we can not afford it. Without us, there is no reason for those CEOs or board members to be. A few of them must be saved but the many of us on the front lines can get stuffed. That is what Republicans are saying.

They are?

They're actually going against their usual mantra of "handouts" and are spending hundreds of billions to give checks out to the workers.


At the same time, Republicans are saying "meh... life? who cares? If they die, they die." The party of life is saying this.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 905990001/
https://www.salon.com/2020/03/19/republ ... 9_partner/
https://thehill.com/changing-america/re ... virus-bill


This literally has nothing to do with the stimulus/bailout bills.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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seb146
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:05 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
They are?

They're actually going against their usual mantra of "handouts" and are spending hundreds of billions to give checks out to the workers.


At the same time, Republicans are saying "meh... life? who cares? If they die, they die." The party of life is saying this.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 905990001/
https://www.salon.com/2020/03/19/republ ... 9_partner/
https://thehill.com/changing-america/re ... virus-bill

Ok, the GOP continues to do things I disagree with. What does that have to do with 1: maybe we should help companies because without companies you don't have jobs and without jobs you don't have a paycheck and 2: the GOP, for it's many, many flaws is actually pushing to give free paychecks to the workers?

I don't like your unrelated deflection. I'm not sure how any of what you posted addresses my points I just mentioned


You see it as a "chicken and egg" scenario. I do not. These established "too big to fail" companies like Safeway, Wal-Mart, United, Chase, Comcast, etc. do not survive only because a few people at the top demand they survive. None of those companies would be around without the lowly cogs way down at the bottom. Jeff Bezos would not be able to pick, pack, ship, and deliver those millions of things on his own. He needs employees. We do not need the government to give corporate welfare hand-outs so these multi-national coroporations can buy back all their stock and give a few people at the top massive bonuses.

Also, the leader of the Republican party has decided we will be open by Easter. Because he knows more than the medical people or something.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/24/politics ... index.html
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white- ... r-n1167721

Because stocks and profit are more important than people.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:14 pm

seb146 wrote:
These established "too big to fail" companies like Safeway, Wal-Mart, United, Chase, Comcast, etc. do not survive only because a few people at the top demand they survive. None of those companies would be around without the lowly cogs way down at the bottom. Jeff Bezos would not be able to pick, pack, ship, and deliver those millions of things on his own. He needs employees.

Exactly! I 1000% agree! Millions of workers support these companies! And guess what will happen to these millions of workers' paychecks when all their companies go under?

Would it be easier and more cost effective to give a loan (to be paid back) to United Airlines so they can keep paying their tens of thousands of employees for years and years (and decades) or pay these tens of thousands of workers while they produce no goods and services in the unemployment line for months? And then get hired at another airline for a fraction of the pay since they lost all their seniority?

seb146 wrote:
We do not need the government to give corporate welfare hand-outs so these multi-national coroporations can buy back all their stock and give a few people at the top massive bonuses.

Ok, so let's NOT give them money so corporations can buy back stock and give a few people at the top massive bonuses. You know, we can put stipulations on this money. We can make them pay it back later too.

There are more than 2 scenarios here, it's not just 1: pour billions into CEOs bank accounts 2: let them all go under and millions join the unemployment line
 
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seb146
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:22 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
These established "too big to fail" companies like Safeway, Wal-Mart, United, Chase, Comcast, etc. do not survive only because a few people at the top demand they survive. None of those companies would be around without the lowly cogs way down at the bottom. Jeff Bezos would not be able to pick, pack, ship, and deliver those millions of things on his own. He needs employees.

Exactly! I 1000% agree! Millions of workers support these companies! And guess what will happen to these millions of workers' paychecks when all their companies go under?

Would it be easier and more cost effective to give a loan (to be paid back) to United Airlines so they can keep paying their tens of thousands of employees for years and years (and decades) or pay these tens of thousands of workers while they produce no goods and services in the unemployment line for months? And then get hired at another airline for a fraction of the pay since they lost all their seniority?

seb146 wrote:
We do not need the government to give corporate welfare hand-outs so these multi-national coroporations can buy back all their stock and give a few people at the top massive bonuses.

Ok, so let's NOT give them money so corporations can buy back stock and give a few people at the top massive bonuses. You know, we can put stipulations on this money. We can make them pay it back later too.

There are more than 2 scenarios here, it's not just 1: pour billions into CEOs bank accounts 2: let them all go under and millions join the unemployment line


Right. And more attention needs to be paid to us on the front lines rather than those at the very top. This is not the time to divide 50/50. The few at the top do not need $1 trillion while the masses at the bottom have to split up $1 trillion. Maybe give $1 billion to the top and the rest goes to us down here on the front lines. Tell those at the top that if they spend even on penny on stock buyback, they loose all their government funding. If they spend even one penny on bonuses, they loose all their government funding.

This is socialism. Remember how much we hate socialism? For months, the right has been telling us how much we hate socialism? This is what socialism looks like. Why do we socialize the losses but not the profits?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:32 pm

seb146 wrote:
Right. And more attention needs to be paid to us on the front lines rather than those at the very top. This is not the time to divide 50/50. The few at the top do not need $1 trillion while the masses at the bottom have to split up $1 trillion. Maybe give $1 billion to the top and the rest goes to us down here on the front lines. Tell those at the top that if they spend even on penny on stock buyback, they loose all their government funding. If they spend even one penny on bonuses, they loose all their government funding.

I don't think anyone is arguing against what you're saying. I think most of us (even the GOP, according to what I'm seeing in the proposed bills) agree with you

But I am seeing pushback against bailing companies out, which again, puzzles me since I'm pro worker and want people to have jobs and a paycheck.

Bailing companies out does not necessarily mean lining the pockets of rich assholes. We need to all remember that. It can be done right

seb146 wrote:
Why do we socialize the losses but not the profits?

Good question. I hope this is addressed going forward. If this was the ONLY time we privatized the profits and socialized the losses, I would not blame the companies or the system overall... This global pandemic is unprecedented and no company prepares for this level of disruption. But we are bailing out companies too often.

As long as they pay us back eventually, I'm not as worried. Maybe there should be a fund set aside (paid for by the companies) for bailouts in the future, bailout insurance? Golden parachutes are annoying but honestly I think the system is gonna have some of that no matter what
 
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Tugger
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:52 pm

I guess to me, if you intend something to be "pro-worker" and know that small and large companies need support, then you craft the support such that employees will be rehired within a certain timeframe (A year? Two?). The concern I guess with the "pro-worker" crowd is that the companies will take the support, and still "have to" layoff a chunk of employees (the economy is impacted, sales will be down) and then congratulate themselves on how well they handled the crisis with management bonuses.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
rfields5421
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:13 pm

Well, I have a granddaughter sent home for a week with no pay because business was slow a couple weeks ago. That does not qualify for unemployment in Texas. And her insurance agency office is too small to pay unemployment anyway.

Her second job is in a restaurant, thus no hours available.

Her large corporation owned apartment complex has reminded everyone of their obligation to pay rent on time, and the daily penalty for late payments will not be deferred. Layoffs or lost jobs - tough sh.... move out, but pay the broken lease penalties.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15333
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:00 pm

The 'Bailout Bill' is likely to pass the US Senate this afternoon/early evening, then to the House to vote on Thursday.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets ... spartandhp

The bill has some flaws, particularly as to 'gig' and part time workers, but it seems to be a balance of interests of both parties. Protect key companies with loans but limit potential abuses. Benefit people ASAP with direct checks with caps to get a check. Subsidies to state unemployment benefits for up to 4 months. Billions to states, cities, hospitals, public health and medical staff costs. Loans to small businesses that could convert to grants.

Apparently one quark in the bill is to ban the businesses that a President, VP, Members of Congress, Cabinet officials or close family members to get loans/grants or other benefits in this bill
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/ ... -receiving
 
dfwjim1
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:01 pm

Hey folks - got some questions:

1). How is the bailout being paid for once President Trump signs off on it?

2). My wife earns $125,000 per year while I earn $55,000 and we file jointly but I assume that I will get a $1,000 check and she will not. Is my assumption correct.

3). How will the $1,000 checks be delivered - electronically or snail mail?

Thanks for your responses.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:33 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
Hey folks - got some questions:

1). How is the bailout being paid for once President Trump signs off on it?

2). My wife earns $125,000 per year while I earn $55,000 and we file jointly but I assume that I will get a $1,000 check and she will not. Is my assumption correct.

3). How will the $1,000 checks be delivered - electronically or snail mail?

Thanks for your responses.


1. Like most government spending over the past few years, there is no provision to raise money to pay for the bill. The official position with extra funding for 'The Wall' and other projects is that increased income tax totals from the pay raises everyone will receive in the boom economy created by lower tax rates will cover the increased costs. I doubt that Reagan's first trickle down tax cuts have yet to pay off in that manner.

2. You guess is as good as anyone. Check last tax filing AGI - that is the amount you need to calculate from - in my opinion, I could be wrong.

EDIT - In general reading - it doesn't look like a couple with a $180,000 combined income will receive anything. But I could be wrong, and the FINAL bill has not passed the House yet, and there may be another Senate vote. And the President must still agree to sign it.

3. Treasury Secretary said when this was first being discussed that payments are to go to people the same way their last tax refund went to them, or where their last tax payment came from. Federal govt/ Treasury department abhors paper checks. He also indicated it would be 2 1/2 to 3 weeks before the first payments would start to go out. And everyone won't be paid on the first day.

Currently Social Security spreads out payments over three weeks during a month - second, third and fourth Wednesdays of each month. Based on social security number.
Last edited by rfields5421 on Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
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DL717
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:37 pm

For all of you people bickering here about airline bailouts, let me give you a little bit of perspective. I just got a call from a friend of mine and no large airport in the country is seeing more than 30,000 enplanements a day right now and those are only the airports taking international arrivals. Most can’t even fill up a large arena (think Basketball/Hockey size). So put that in your pocket, have a coke and a smile, and quit the bickering.

Yeah. Your brain just exploded.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
rfields5421
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:43 pm

Re amount of payments

This is from an ABC News story posted a few minutes ago

Under the plan, individuals who earn $75,000 or less in adjusted gross income would get direct payments of $1,200 each, with married couples earning up to $150,000 receiving $2,400.

An additional $500 per child will be tacked on to that.

The payment would scale down as income rises, phasing out entirely at $99,000 for singles and $198,000 for couples without children.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
BN747
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:00 am

seb146 wrote:
We workers propping up these multi-billion dollar industries and barely scraping by are supposed to have a savings plan for something like this but corporations run to the government and demand massive bailouts when even a hint of something bad comes.

Maybe if corporations didn't blow all their money on avocado toast and PBR.....


Anyone supporting these corporate bailouts need watch the dated documentary 'The Corporation'.

This unprecedented greed is mind-boggling AF.

Boeing I'll forever be in love with your 747, but you mofos have got to go.
Our gov't must stop being the bitch for corporations, esp. Big Pharma.

The $60 Billion they want, instead peeling what would be necessary to pay every Boeing employee 6 months severance + any cross training course desired should they want to slide over to anothre line of work and let Boeing sink!

I like many Americans have business (or businesses) in our lifetime and we received no bailouts and pre-Greedy business owners can related to that.

This stranglehold by 'too big to fail' corps has to end or they will forever have us by that nads.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/senate-d ... 1870d62d83

Democrats Are Handing Donald Trump The Keys To The Country

Final text of the bill has not been released, but according to a legislative draft, the new law would establish a $4.5 trillion corporate bailout fund overseen by Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin, with few substantive constraints. Some outlets are reporting this as a $500 billion fund, but $425 billion of that can be leveraged 10 times over by the Federal Reserve, resulting in a multi-trillion-dollar program.

I just read this one paragraph and did not want upchuck dinner....

Yeah, quit them before you can't (but I think it's already too late).

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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DL717
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:14 am

BN747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
We workers propping up these multi-billion dollar industries and barely scraping by are supposed to have a savings plan for something like this but corporations run to the government and demand massive bailouts when even a hint of something bad comes.

Maybe if corporations didn't blow all their money on avocado toast and PBR.....


Anyone supporting these corporate bailouts need watch the dated documentary 'The Corporation'.

This unprecedented greed is mind-boggling AF.

Boeing I'll forever be in love with your 747, but you mofos have got to go.
Our gov't must stop being the bitch for corporations, esp. Big Pharma.

The $60 Billion they want, instead peeling what would be necessary to pay every Boeing employee 6 months severance + any cross training course desired should they want to slide over to anothre line of work and let Boeing sink!

I like many Americans have business (or businesses) in our lifetime and we received no bailouts and pre-Greedy business owners can related to that.

This stranglehold by 'too big to fail' corps has to end or they will forever have us by that nads.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/senate-d ... 1870d62d83

Democrats Are Handing Donald Trump The Keys To The Country

Final text of the bill has not been released, but according to a legislative draft, the new law would establish a $4.5 trillion corporate bailout fund overseen by Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin, with few substantive constraints. Some outlets are reporting this as a $500 billion fund, but $425 billion of that can be leveraged 10 times over by the Federal Reserve, resulting in a multi-trillion-dollar program.

I just read this one paragraph and did not want upchuck dinner....

Yeah, quit them before you can't (but I think it's already too late).

BN747


Airlines are being slaughtered. Here is a nice education for you if you can stomach it without upchucking your dinner:

https://www.wweek.com/news/2020/03/24/h ... nd-cities/
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8447
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:17 am

BN747 wrote:
with few substantive constraints
BN747


Don't worry. No Representative or Senator would have read the bill in its entirety and congressional interns probably typed in loopholes so corporations can wiggle themselves out once loan checks are deposited into their accounts.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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seb146
Posts: 22771
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:29 am

DL717 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
We workers propping up these multi-billion dollar industries and barely scraping by are supposed to have a savings plan for something like this but corporations run to the government and demand massive bailouts when even a hint of something bad comes.

Maybe if corporations didn't blow all their money on avocado toast and PBR.....


Anyone supporting these corporate bailouts need watch the dated documentary 'The Corporation'.

This unprecedented greed is mind-boggling AF.

Boeing I'll forever be in love with your 747, but you mofos have got to go.
Our gov't must stop being the bitch for corporations, esp. Big Pharma.

The $60 Billion they want, instead peeling what would be necessary to pay every Boeing employee 6 months severance + any cross training course desired should they want to slide over to anothre line of work and let Boeing sink!

I like many Americans have business (or businesses) in our lifetime and we received no bailouts and pre-Greedy business owners can related to that.

This stranglehold by 'too big to fail' corps has to end or they will forever have us by that nads.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/senate-d ... 1870d62d83

Democrats Are Handing Donald Trump The Keys To The Country

Final text of the bill has not been released, but according to a legislative draft, the new law would establish a $4.5 trillion corporate bailout fund overseen by Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin, with few substantive constraints. Some outlets are reporting this as a $500 billion fund, but $425 billion of that can be leveraged 10 times over by the Federal Reserve, resulting in a multi-trillion-dollar program.

I just read this one paragraph and did not want upchuck dinner....

Yeah, quit them before you can't (but I think it's already too late).

BN747


Airlines are being slaughtered. Here is a nice education for you if you can stomach it without upchucking your dinner:

https://www.wweek.com/news/2020/03/24/h ... nd-cities/


So, what? We should just bail out all the corporations because HA suspends flights to the mainland? These "too big to fail" companies, whether they be in transportation, logistics, vulture capitalism, banks, communications, what have you, need trillions of dollars in welfare but we down here who pay rent and buy food and need health care should get.......?

I am not saying some of these companies are not important. Many of them are. But, maybe they should keep a savings or have some back up plan so they don't have to get welfare from the government?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:44 am

Well, I have no love for some/ most big corporations, but as I said in another thread on Boeing.

The big cat executives and the big stockholders never suffer in a bankruptcy, either a reorganization or a closure. For Boeing it is tens of thousands of employees, and many more small investors who will suffer. A 500k cut in salary won't hurt the executive or the brokerage or the investment firm. But a 10 - 15k cut can mean kids don't go to college, get a lot of things to help them succeed later in life.

Retraining. Get real. Never ever has a major industry closed up and most workers not end up with nothing to ever replace their previous level of living. Boeing as an example, or even AA in DFW, is going to mean thousands end up having to move, lose homes. Restaurants and such closing. Everything down to the local barbershop.

I've seen a couple dozen small cities basically turn into ghost towns when the major industrial employer closes. Happened to my father in 1979 which the papermill closed. He was 54. Half the kids in my high school class (1970) ended up losing their homes, cars repossessed. About 70 still lived in the town, and worked at everything from at the mill to one who had just opened a sporting goods store, his dream. Not 10 left in the town five years later. Late in my USN career, dealt with base closures. Same level of impact.

More importantly, maybe such a major restructuring of the way the US government does business is in order. But now isn't the time. Heck the economy isn't stable enough today to know what impact this stimulus bill will have, much less major policy changes.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
KFTG
Posts: 864
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:52 am

Recommend all US taxpayers file their taxes now if your 2019 AGI is lower than that of 2018. The IRS will look at the most recent AGI on file.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Corona virus Bailout Bill (US)

Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:35 am

seb146 wrote:

I am not saying some of these companies are not important. Many of them are. But, maybe they should keep a savings or have some back up plan so they don't have to get welfare from the government?

To be fair, I think a lot of companies are in an excellent position to weather a recession, but not the largest shock to our economy in history. This level of disruption is beyond what any company *reasonably* could imagine

Like I said before, maybe after this mess we need to have a corporate tax of 1% or whatever to go into a fund used solely for bailouts. Or even better, we can use it to pay down the debt so the money goes to good use (and if we need money and have to add a trillion on the debt, we at least erased two trillion off the debt or whatever)

I share your frustration though. I'm really hoping we can emerge from this and put in real change to prevent a lot of the "privatizing profits socializing losses." I have a feeling that won't happen unless we win back the WH in 2020, and even then, who know if anything will pass...

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