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Dutchy
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Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:06 am

Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Government says legislation is a necessary response to coronavirus but critics fear it is open to abuse.

Hungary’s parliament will consider an emergency bill this week that would give prime minister Viktor Orbán sweeping powers to rule by decree, without a clear cut-off date.

The bill seeks to extend the state of emergency declared earlier this month over coronavirus, and could also see people jailed for spreading information deemed to be fake news. The government has portrayed the move as a necessary response to the unprecedented challenges posed by the coronavirus pandemic, but critics immediately labelled the legislation as dangerously open-ended and vulnerable to abuse.

“You can’t have a completely unrestricted mandate for the government,” said Márta Pardavi, co-chair of the Hungarian Helsinki Committee. “The current draft does exactly that. It basically gives an open-ended carte-blanche mandate.”

On Sunday, four Hungarian NGOs, including the Helsinki Committee, called on the government to provide a sunset clause to the emergency measures and broaden the scope for constitutional challenges to future decrees enacted within it.

The new law would also introduce prison terms of up to five years for anyone publicising false information that alarms the public or impedes government efforts to protect people. It caused disquiet among independent journalists, who have often been accused by the government and its loyal stable of media outlets of peddling fake news.

Orbán’s spokesman Zoltán Kovács said the lack of a clear end date was in case MPs became too sick for parliament to sit. Attempts to portray the bill as a threat to the free media were “biased and irresponsible”, he said. “Lives are at stake,” he wrote on Twitter, adding that the bill is “quite reasonable”.

Part of the alarm was owing to the record of Orbán’s government over the past decade. Critics and democracy watchdogs have accused the government of rolling back democratic norms and eroding the rule of law.

“The past 10 years have served as ample proof that the Hungarian government exploits and abuses opportunities to weaken institutions serving as a check on its power, whenever it has the chance to do so,” said the Budapest-based think tank Political Capital. “Extraordinary legal situations are very easy to introduce, but it is much harder to return to business as usual afterwards.



So what you all. think, will this Corona-virus be. the excuse fro Orban to turn Hungary into a real dictatorship? Or will the citizens protect their rights some way?

I think we have all be aware of all the special measurements taken by our governments to limit our liberties temporarily. Although that is most understandable at combating this crisis and even necessary for public health, temporarily have a habit of becoming permanent.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:44 am

It seems like he can try a Putin without need to go overboard on the abuse of freedoms, but we shall see.

I sure hope the EU does something at some point after the Coronavirus crisis, like cutting all EU funds.
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anrec80
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:45 am

Dutchy wrote:

So what you all. think, will this Corona-virus be. the excuse fro Orban to turn Hungary into a real dictatorship? Or will the citizens protect their rights some way?

I think we have all be aware of all the special measurements taken by our governments to limit our liberties temporarily. Although that is most understandable at combating this crisis and even necessary for public health, temporarily have a habit of becoming permanent.


We need to ask Hungarians and general Hungarian public- do they want to give Orban these privileges or not. The leader of Helsinki group isn’t all Hungarians. But apparently, Europeans wanted their governments to have handled these Coronavirus things much more orderly, efficiently and with less damage than EU governments did.
 
anrec80
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:46 am

Aesma wrote:
It seems like he can try a Putin without need to go overboard on the abuse of freedoms, but we shall see.

I sure hope the EU does something at some point after the Coronavirus crisis, like cutting all EU funds.


The EU funds are being cut since 2020 - 2021 anyway, if you are talking leveling policy. He has nothing to lose left. And to be fair, after this pandemics more and more Europeans will want not EU, freedoms and stuff, but an efficient and competent government capable to manage such situations smartly and efficiently. And everyone sees efficiency with which Russia and Belarus were able to handle this situation - about 500 per 150 million in Russia, and less than 100 in 10 million Belarus. 1-2 casualties in Russia so far.

And all that - without much restrictions, no total shutdown of economy like in the West whatsoever. Even restaurants are open in Russia.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:06 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

So what you all. think, will this Corona-virus be. the excuse fro Orban to turn Hungary into a real dictatorship? Or will the citizens protect their rights some way?

I think we have all be aware of all the special measurements taken by our governments to limit our liberties temporarily. Although that is most understandable at combating this crisis and even necessary for public health, temporarily have a habit of becoming permanent.


We need to ask Hungarians and general Hungarian public- do they want to give Orban these privileges or not. The leader of Helsinki group isn’t all Hungarians. But apparently, Europeans wanted their governments to have handled these Coronavirus things much more orderly, efficiently and with less damage than EU governments did.


But of course, you side with autocratic regimes. Very predictable and nothing special there.

Lots of assumptions again without any merit to it. So I had to look up what the Helsinki group even. is, and apparently you mean: The Moscow Helsinki Group (also known as the Moscow Helsinki Watch Group, Russian: Моско́вская Хе́льсинкская гру́ппа) is today one of Russia's leading human rights organizations. In 2001 he described it as "the most servile and pro-government" among NGOs then existing in Russia.

Please, when are we going to ask Hungarians? Parliament is going to vote itself out of existence till Orban calls it back again into session, next week.
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Dutchy
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:12 am

anrec80 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
It seems like he can try a Putin without need to go overboard on the abuse of freedoms, but we shall see.

I sure hope the EU does something at some point after the Coronavirus crisis, like cutting all EU funds.


The EU funds are being cut since 2020 - 2021 anyway, if you are talking leveling policy. He has nothing to lose left. And to be fair, after this pandemics more and more Europeans will want not EU, freedoms and stuff, but an efficient and competent government capable to manage such situations smartly and efficiently. And everyone sees efficiency with which Russia and Belarus were able to handle this situation - about 500 per 150 million in Russia, and less than 100 in 10 million Belarus. 1-2 casualties in Russia so far.

And all that - without much restrictions, no total shutdown of economy like in the West whatsoever. Even restaurants are open in Russia.


Oh please, don't promote Putin's autocratic regimes so pathetically. It is a false dilemma you offer here and you offer no prove at all that the Europeans want this anyway. We know that the EU has identified another campaign:Russia deploying coronavirus disinformation to sow panic in West]. This comment fits this perfectly.
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alfa164
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:15 am

Aesma wrote:
It seems like he can try a Putin without need to go overboard on the abuse of freedoms, but we shall see. I sure hope the EU does something at some point after the Coronavirus crisis, like cutting all EU funds.


From all appearances, it is just as abusive as Putin; all he is missing is the smirk on his face. Two power-hungry, dictatorial demagogues...

:roll:
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alfa164
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:25 am

anrec80 wrote:
And everyone sees efficiency with which Russia and Belarus were able to handle this situation - about 500 per 150 million in Russia, and less than 100 in 10 million Belarus. 1-2 casualties in Russia so far.


...except those statistics are - according even to Putin's cronies - lies. As usual.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-russia/moscows-coronavirus-outbreak-much-worse-than-it-looks-putin-ally-says-idUSKBN21B2F3

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-coronavirus-putin/2020/03/24/18917ca8-6d00-11ea-a156-0048b62cdb51_story.html
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Dutchy
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:45 am

alfa164 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
And everyone sees efficiency with which Russia and Belarus were able to handle this situation - about 500 per 150 million in Russia, and less than 100 in 10 million Belarus. 1-2 casualties in Russia so far.


...except those statistics are - according even to Putin's cronies - lies. As usual.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-russia/moscows-coronavirus-outbreak-much-worse-than-it-looks-putin-ally-says-idUSKBN21B2F3

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-coronavirus-putin/2020/03/24/18917ca8-6d00-11ea-a156-0048b62cdb51_story.html


Of course they did, again no surprise there.

And Anrec80 isn't telling. the whole story again, restaurants might be open, but from your linked articles:

government on Tuesday closed nightclubs, cinemas and children’s entertainment centers to slow the spread of the virus.


Hopefully, Moscow and all Russians will be spared somewhat from the virus, because I wish any citizen well, but the regime might not take it too seriously, before it is too late.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:03 am

Orban should be impeached for his actions and removed from office by Parliament. Similar moves in Ukraine led to the pro Russian president being removed in 2014 and this led to Russia invading Crimea and a war by Russian separatists in the eastern part of the country.
 
Newark727
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:03 am

It would be all for the good if Russia was doing a good job containing coronavirus, but the prior track record of their state-controlled media doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.
 
anrec80
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:23 am

Dutchy wrote:
But of course, you side with autocratic regimes. Very predictable and nothing special there.


OK, then whom should I side with? European "democratic governments" who let all that out of control by having taken absolute zero advance actions? Or healthcare systems turned out to be incapable for anything beyond their daily load, if even that? So yes, this time I side with "autocratic regimes" since those are the ones who were not only more effective in handling the disease, but China, Russia and Cuba (!) were up to day the only ones to extend a helping hand to Italy. While its "allies" did the opposite. The EU, as always, didn't provide any help whatsoever. Germany and France blocked sales of supplies critical to themselves. USA carried out 500K tests on a military plane and called that a "democratic mutual help". Czech Republic tried to "confiscate" a large number of face masks bound for Italy from China (http://www.rfi.fr/en/europe/20200322-cz ... oronavirus). The whole EU really looks like a shady casino which ran out of honest clients, and sharpers started to crook one another. Does someone want to side with this?

Vast majority of people just want a stable, functional, efficient government capable to run the country and protect them from shocks such as this one. They won't care how it's called (a democracy, a communism, a "dictatorship", or somehow else), what's the name of the leader, and how long is he staying in power.

Dutchy wrote:
Please, when are we going to ask Hungarians? Parliament is going to vote itself out of existence till Orban calls it back again into session, next week.


This is up to Hungarians themselves. If their Parliament wants to vote itself out of existence, and Hungarians are OK with it, I don't see any issue anywhere here.
 
Newark727
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:36 am

anrec80 wrote:
The whole EU really looks like a shady casino which ran out of honest clients, and sharpers started to crook one another. Does someone want to side with this?


Yes. Nationalism and autocracy didn't save anybody from the 1918 flu pandemic and they won't save anyone now.
 
anrec80
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:38 am

alfa164 wrote:
...except those statistics are - according even to Putin's cronies - lies. As usual.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-russia/moscows-coronavirus-outbreak-much-worse-than-it-looks-putin-ally-says-idUSKBN21B2F3

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-coronavirus-putin/2020/03/24/18917ca8-6d00-11ea-a156-0048b62cdb51_story.html


Yes, I read this Washington Post article. I just admire clauses "it's all unclear". If it's unclear - then please either make an effort to clarify, or wait until there is clarity, or don't write what's unclear. Yes, I understand Moscow mayor's wish for more testing - though per article, Russia did 186K tests, while the USA about 300K (https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... a-has-done), so test coverage is comparable to American.
 
anrec80
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:42 am

Newark727 wrote:

Yes. Nationalism and autocracy didn't save anybody from the 1918 flu pandemic and they won't save anyone now.


In 1918, first and foremost, there was too little understanding of all this infection stuff on institutional level. And overall, your statement is the same as stating that Medieval Europe's plague pandemies were due to absolute monarchy popular at that time.
 
Newark727
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:53 am

anrec80 wrote:
Newark727 wrote:

Yes. Nationalism and autocracy didn't save anybody from the 1918 flu pandemic and they won't save anyone now.


In 1918, first and foremost, there was too little understanding of all this infection stuff on institutional level. And overall, your statement is the same as stating that Medieval Europe's plague pandemies were due to absolute monarchy popular at that time.


You'll note that I didn't say they caused it. I said they didn't save anyone. And that remains true. Viruses don't care what ground you were born on. Putin and Orban don't really have any more answers than the rest of the governments of the world do - but they're opportunists, so they're happy to blame everyone else who has struggled with it for their own benefit.
 
anrec80
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:13 am

Dutchy wrote:
Hopefully, Moscow and all Russians will be spared somewhat from the virus, because I wish any citizen well, but the regime might not take it too seriously, before it is too late.


Newark727 wrote:
It would be all for the good if Russia was doing a good job containing coronavirus, but the prior track record of their state-controlled media doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.


I am not overly concerned about Russia for number of reasons. First, they have services that were efficiently monitoring the situation abroad and had plans in place even before the virus hits the country. Then, Russians (and Belarus for that reason) have much more adequate and aggressive measures early on. Before they shutdown flights from Europe, they had China and Italy identified as risk areas. A flight arriving from Italy would get checked by doctors if there are anyone positive - such as this one. If anyone there tests positive - all passengers of the flight get isolated immediately.

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... hhego.html

The famous artist and gallery owner Aidan Salakhova was quarantined at the Tsaritsyno State Budgetary Institution after returning from Italy. Aidan flew to Moscow from the city of Bologna on the night of March 10-11. On board the aircraft were two patients with coronavirus. She, like the other 60 passengers on the flight, was examined and first sent home, where she was supposed to spend 14 days in quarantine. However, on April 12, she was taken by ambulance to the Tsaritsyno GBU. As a precaution, Salahova, like the other passengers on the last flight from Bologna, will stay there for two weeks. Aidan took the precautions calmly and advises everyone not to panic.


And in general - in Russia and Belarus, in case someone tests positively - then investigative authorities kick in and establish everyone this person had been in contact with, and isolate (or order self-isolation) every single one of those people (and there can be hundreds of them). Like so:

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... arusi.html

"He was taken to the infectious diseases hospital where smears were taken and the presence of the coronavirus family was confirmed. Now we are clarifying how epidemiologically important this strain is," the minister said.


About 15 fellow students of the infected student, as well as their teachers, were allegedly taken away for verification, students from the BNTU dormitory told Sputnik.


“The guys said that today about 15 students and teachers were taken away somewhere. They suggest that they go to health facilities to check for the virus,” a Sputnik correspondent reports.


This approach early on, obviously, will deliver much better results - and bulk of those tested positively had not had a chance to infect anyone else, and developed their symptoms under supervision of doctors and get treatment early on. In Russia, out 94K people mentioned in the above Washington Post article, bulk of them are such first-degree contacts.

Yes, not exactly free, not exactly democratic - but works and delivers results.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:46 am

Well that's exactly what some governors are doing. They've given no end date and will be all to thrilled to extending the lockdown.
 
wardialer
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:04 am

The Hungarian people are sheeps...There are asleep and will not do anything about it. That's the main problem. Hungarians are not fighters but "sheeps". So in other words, whatever the government does, the Hungarians ignore it and move on without putting up a fight.
 
anrec80
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:50 am

wardialer wrote:
The Hungarian people are sheeps...There are asleep and will not do anything about it. That's the main problem. Hungarians are not fighters but "sheeps". So in other words, whatever the government does, the Hungarians ignore it and move on without putting up a fight.


To fight what exactly? Just in 2018 they had Parliament elections, where Fidesz gained majority. And there certainly are other parties and other offerings for voters. It's the responsibility of other leaders to come up with competitive offerings to voters. Fighting will simply destroy the state from inside and won't bring anything positive. It's the responsibility of all political leaders to avoid such scenario.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:12 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
But of course, you side with autocratic regimes. Very predictable and nothing special there.


OK, then whom should I side with? European "democratic governments" who let all that out of control by having taken absolute zero advance actions?


Assumptions, again, just assumption.

anrec80 wrote:
Or healthcare systems turned out to be incapable for anything beyond their daily load, if even that?

False statements not based in any fact, false statement number one. Probably designed just to scare the Europeans that their governments are failing them. Not the case.

anrec80 wrote:
So yes, this time I side with "autocratic regimes"

False statement, false statement number two. You side with autocratic regimes each and every time and for Russia twice on Sunday. The only variation is the reason why.

anrec80 wrote:
since those are the ones who were not only more effective in handling the disease,

False statement, not based on facts, false statement number three. We will see in 2years time if that is actually the case or not. We see Russian officials disagreeing with the official party line. Lots of speculation of what is actually going on in North Korea right now,
The only positive thing I can see for autocratic regimes is that their citizens are conditioned into submission so they tent to follow their states more, and in a crisis like this, and only in crises like this nothing more, it will give them a greater response time, if and that is a big if, they do the right thing for the country. But as history has learned, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, so by far the most autocratic regimes will not have the best interest of their citizens at heart, and this very much includes Orbán. (and Putin for that matter or the other favorite of yours Assad)

anrec80 wrote:
but China, Russia and Cuba (!) were up to day the only ones to extend a helping hand to Italy.

Yes, they did, even a broken clock is right two times a day. And given Putin's track record, I tend to say it is more a cheap publicity stunt than anything else. There is always an altirier motive with the Russian regime, always. So a half false statement, false statement number three and a half.

anrec80 wrote:
While its "allies" did the opposite.

Complete and utter bull. So again a false statement, false statement number four and a half. Just designed again to drive a wedge between Europeans. This is Russian propaganda tactics at its "finest".

anrec80 wrote:
The EU, as always, didn't provide any help whatsoever.

Complete and utter bull. So again a false statement, false statement number five and a half. Just designed again to drive a wedge between Europeans. This is Russian propaganda tacktick at its "finest".

anrec80 wrote:
Germany and France blocked sales of supplies critical to themselves.

Complete and utter bull. So again a false statement, false statement number six and a half. Just designed again to drive a wedge between Europeans. This is Russian propaganda tactics at its "finest".

anrec80 wrote:
USA carried out 500K tests on a military plane and called that a "democratic mutual help"

Not even sure what this even refers to.

anrec80 wrote:
Czech Republic tried to "confiscate" a large number of face masks bound for Italy from China (http://www.rfi.fr/en/europe/20200322-cz ... oronavirus).

Czech sides more with the Putin regime than with the values of the EU these days, unfortunately.

anrec80 wrote:
The whole EU really looks like a shady casino which ran out of honest clients, and sharpers started to crook one another. Does someone want to side with this?

Yes, because it is the opposite of what you say. The easiest way to get to the truth with you is to reverse your "arguments'. Again, just like Russian propaganda to want to divide EU citizens.

anrec80 wrote:
Vast majority of people just want a stable, functional, efficient government capable to run the country and protect them from shocks such as this one.

There is no way to protect anyone from this. And again a false statement, false statement number seven and a half, People want to be able to better themselves. Want to have freedoms.

anrec80 wrote:
They won't care how it's called (a democracy, a communism, a "dictatorship", or somehow else), what's the name of the leader, and how long is he staying in power.

Complete and utter bull, so a false statement, false statement number eight and a half. Lots of scientific papers around that they do care and even uprises to show they do care.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Please, when are we going to ask Hungarians? Parliament is going to vote itself out of existence till Orban calls it back again into session, next week.


This is up to Hungarians themselves. If their Parliament wants to vote itself out of existence, and Hungarians are OK with it, I don't see any issue anywhere here.

Oh, this is so tiresome, we are only forced to conclude that you are not willing to learn anything, the only question is why? You continue to repeat these utter lies. So I do not even call this a false statement anymore. You continue to blame the victims of these regimes not to uprise against these authoritarian regimes. And this fact alone strips you of all credibility on this subject.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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DL717
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:25 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Government says legislation is a necessary response to coronavirus but critics fear it is open to abuse.

Hungary’s parliament will consider an emergency bill this week that would give prime minister Viktor Orbán sweeping powers to rule by decree, without a clear cut-off date.

The bill seeks to extend the state of emergency declared earlier this month over coronavirus, and could also see people jailed for spreading information deemed to be fake news. The government has portrayed the move as a necessary response to the unprecedented challenges posed by the coronavirus pandemic, but critics immediately labelled the legislation as dangerously open-ended and vulnerable to abuse.

“You can’t have a completely unrestricted mandate for the government,” said Márta Pardavi, co-chair of the Hungarian Helsinki Committee. “The current draft does exactly that. It basically gives an open-ended carte-blanche mandate.”

On Sunday, four Hungarian NGOs, including the Helsinki Committee, called on the government to provide a sunset clause to the emergency measures and broaden the scope for constitutional challenges to future decrees enacted within it.

The new law would also introduce prison terms of up to five years for anyone publicising false information that alarms the public or impedes government efforts to protect people. It caused disquiet among independent journalists, who have often been accused by the government and its loyal stable of media outlets of peddling fake news.

Orbán’s spokesman Zoltán Kovács said the lack of a clear end date was in case MPs became too sick for parliament to sit. Attempts to portray the bill as a threat to the free media were “biased and irresponsible”, he said. “Lives are at stake,” he wrote on Twitter, adding that the bill is “quite reasonable”.

Part of the alarm was owing to the record of Orbán’s government over the past decade. Critics and democracy watchdogs have accused the government of rolling back democratic norms and eroding the rule of law.

“The past 10 years have served as ample proof that the Hungarian government exploits and abuses opportunities to weaken institutions serving as a check on its power, whenever it has the chance to do so,” said the Budapest-based think tank Political Capital. “Extraordinary legal situations are very easy to introduce, but it is much harder to return to business as usual afterwards.



So what you all. think, will this Corona-virus be. the excuse fro Orban to turn Hungary into a real dictatorship? Or will the citizens protect their rights some way?

I think we have all be aware of all the special measurements taken by our governments to limit our liberties temporarily. Although that is most understandable at combating this crisis and even necessary for public health, temporarily have a habit of becoming permanent.


This is the kind of crap we need to worry about right now. You don’t change your governing structure over a poor economic outlook so someone can stay in office forever. Just ask Germany. They have a lot of experience with that.

This is also the parliamentary week spot. A single party gains control, appoints the Prime Minister, then changes the laws during something like this to maintain power. I’ll stick with the need for a 2/3 majority in the House and the a Senate to make a constitutional change damn near impossible.
Last edited by DL717 on Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dutchy
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:30 pm

DL717 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Government says legislation is a necessary response to coronavirus but critics fear it is open to abuse.

Hungary’s parliament will consider an emergency bill this week that would give prime minister Viktor Orbán sweeping powers to rule by decree, without a clear cut-off date.

The bill seeks to extend the state of emergency declared earlier this month over coronavirus, and could also see people jailed for spreading information deemed to be fake news. The government has portrayed the move as a necessary response to the unprecedented challenges posed by the coronavirus pandemic, but critics immediately labelled the legislation as dangerously open-ended and vulnerable to abuse.

“You can’t have a completely unrestricted mandate for the government,” said Márta Pardavi, co-chair of the Hungarian Helsinki Committee. “The current draft does exactly that. It basically gives an open-ended carte-blanche mandate.”

On Sunday, four Hungarian NGOs, including the Helsinki Committee, called on the government to provide a sunset clause to the emergency measures and broaden the scope for constitutional challenges to future decrees enacted within it.

The new law would also introduce prison terms of up to five years for anyone publicising false information that alarms the public or impedes government efforts to protect people. It caused disquiet among independent journalists, who have often been accused by the government and its loyal stable of media outlets of peddling fake news.

Orbán’s spokesman Zoltán Kovács said the lack of a clear end date was in case MPs became too sick for parliament to sit. Attempts to portray the bill as a threat to the free media were “biased and irresponsible”, he said. “Lives are at stake,” he wrote on Twitter, adding that the bill is “quite reasonable”.

Part of the alarm was owing to the record of Orbán’s government over the past decade. Critics and democracy watchdogs have accused the government of rolling back democratic norms and eroding the rule of law.

“The past 10 years have served as ample proof that the Hungarian government exploits and abuses opportunities to weaken institutions serving as a check on its power, whenever it has the chance to do so,” said the Budapest-based think tank Political Capital. “Extraordinary legal situations are very easy to introduce, but it is much harder to return to business as usual afterwards.



So what you all. think, will this Corona-virus be. the excuse fro Orban to turn Hungary into a real dictatorship? Or will the citizens protect their rights some way?

I think we have all be aware of all the special measurements taken by our governments to limit our liberties temporarily. Although that is most understandable at combating this crisis and even necessary for public health, temporarily have a habit of becoming permanent.


This is the kind of crap we need to worry about right now. You don’t change your governing structure over a poor economic outlook so someone can stay in office forever. Just ask Germany. They have a lot of experience with that.


Not just Germany, a lot of dictatorships began like that. Even a lot came from independence movements, started out as enlightened war hero's, but fall to the old: absolute power, corrupts absolutely. And that's why almost all dictatorships / autocratic regimes are lead by people of immense wealth gotten from robbing the place clean. Corruption hinders progress.........
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DL717
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:32 pm

Dutchy wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:


So what you all. think, will this Corona-virus be. the excuse fro Orban to turn Hungary into a real dictatorship? Or will the citizens protect their rights some way?

I think we have all be aware of all the special measurements taken by our governments to limit our liberties temporarily. Although that is most understandable at combating this crisis and even necessary for public health, temporarily have a habit of becoming permanent.


This is the kind of crap we need to worry about right now. You don’t change your governing structure over a poor economic outlook so someone can stay in office forever. Just ask Germany. They have a lot of experience with that.


Not just Germany, a lot of dictatorships began like that. Even a lot came from independence movements, started out as enlightened war hero's, but fall to the old: absolute power, corrupts absolutely. And that's why almost all dictatorships / autocratic regimes are lead by people of immense wealth gotten from robbing the place clean. Corruption hinders progress.........


Yup. But they are the shining example of what not to allow. People are getting 1930’s desperate already and that’s a bit scary in come places because you don’t know where they will go with that desperation. The EU has been concerned about Hungary for a while now, and not in a BREXIT kind of way. Fortunately they don’t have Germany’s 1930’s capabilities.
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:56 pm

DL717 wrote:
The EU has been concerned about Hungary for a while now, and not in a BREXIT kind of way.


Yes and rightfully so. Hungary has signed-up to the ECHR, and Orbán seems to has made it his mission to tremp all human rights in Hungary and this seems to be his final step. The EU isn't all-powerful and countries are still independent to do whatever they like. Hopefully, Hungary will have his EU rights stripped, you can't cherry-pick with the EU, as Britain has discovered the semi-hard way.
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LabQuest
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:09 pm

How could this happen in a modern EU country? What is going on with the EU these days?
 
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:44 pm

anrec80 wrote:
And everyone sees efficiency with which Russia and Belarus were able to handle this situation - about 500 per 150 million in Russia. 1-2 casualties in Russia so far.


Yesterday's numbers, today: 658 for Russia with 1 death ( http://coronamap.org/ ), so as expected, it follows the same curve as elsewhere.
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:45 pm

LabQuest wrote:
How could this happen in a modern EU country? What is going on with the EU these days?


EU isn't a state you know.
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
LabQuest wrote:
How could this happen in a modern EU country? What is going on with the EU these days?


EU isn't a state you know.


Of course I know. I thought they had rules to follow to prevent things like this?
 
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:00 pm

LabQuest wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
LabQuest wrote:
How could this happen in a modern EU country? What is going on with the EU these days?


EU isn't a state you know.


Of course I know. I thought they had rules to follow to prevent things like this?


Countries sign-up to uphold the ECHR and all other rules and treaties. So Hungarians can go to international courts. The EU can take the Hungarian government to court, but in the end, the EU has no mechanism to trow these kinds of countries out, as much as we like to do so. So that is a system error within the EU. Nobody expected to have a, shell we say, democratic averse leader within the EU again, but alais.
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:06 pm

Dutchy wrote:
LabQuest wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

EU isn't a state you know.


Of course I know. I thought they had rules to follow to prevent things like this?


Countries sign-up to uphold the ECHR and all other rules and treaties. So Hungarians can go to international courts. The EU can take the Hungarian government to court, but in the end, the EU has no mechanism to trow these kinds of countries out, as much as we like to do so. So that is a system error within the EU. Nobody expected to have a, shell we say, democratic averse leader within the EU again, but alais.


So there's no real way to stop this from happening? What if they go full dictatorship? The rest of the EU still has to treat them like part of the team, free trade, etc?
 
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:13 pm

LabQuest wrote:
So there's no real way to stop this from happening? What if they go full dictatorship? The rest of the EU still has to treat them like part of the team, free trade, etc?


It appears that the EU, formed with high hopes and trust in each country's government, wasn't expecting (or fully prepared for) a reversion to the dark days of right-wing nationalism and demagoguery that has arisen in recent years - appealing mostly to those who are too young to remember what these tendencies caused in the past.

As George Santayana so famously noted, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."


Dutchy wrote:
Countries sign-up to uphold the ECHR and all other rules and treaties. So Hungarians can go to international courts. The EU can take the Hungarian government to court, but in the end, the EU has no mechanism to trow these kinds of countries out, as much as we like to do so. So that is a system error within the EU. Nobody expected to have a, shell we say, democratic averse leader within the EU again, but alais.



:checkmark:
Last edited by alfa164 on Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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anrec80
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:21 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Yesterday's numbers, today: 658 for Russia with 1 death ( http://coronamap.org/ ), so as expected, it follows the same curve as elsewhere.


Yepp - such jumps are generally attributed to increasing testing. But we are still far from tens of thousands, and hopefully increases start slowing and soon stop - everywhere.
 
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:21 pm

alfa164 wrote:
It appears that the EU, formed with high hopes and trust in each country's government, wasn't expecting (or fully prepared for) a reversion to the dark days of right-wing nationalism and demagoguery that has arisen in recent years -


You might say the same about this website: It appears that Airliners.net, formed with high hopes and trust in each others ability to carry on a civilized and factual discussion, wasn't expecting (or fully prepared for) an invasion by the Russian troll(s) who relish spreading lies and disinformation here, just like they do all over the web.

That seems to be a similar situation.
 
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:49 pm

LabQuest wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
LabQuest wrote:
How could this happen in a modern EU country? What is going on with the EU these days?


EU isn't a state you know.


Hungary isn't a modern EU country. You may compare it with what some people in the US call "fly-over country".
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:56 pm

anrec80 wrote:
wardialer wrote:
The Hungarian people are sheeps...There are asleep and will not do anything about it. That's the main problem. Hungarians are not fighters but "sheeps". So in other words, whatever the government does, the Hungarians ignore it and move on without putting up a fight.


To fight what exactly? Just in 2018 they had Parliament elections, where Fidesz gained majority. And there certainly are other parties and other offerings for voters. It's the responsibility of other leaders to come up with competitive offerings to voters. Fighting will simply destroy the state from inside and won't bring anything positive. It's the responsibility of all political leaders to avoid such scenario.


It's interesting how people who say they oppose 'fascism' and 'dictators' are angry about elected governments, going so far as to say that elected governments to be overthrown by a different government that would be composed of them and their allies. But isn't that the definition of fascism and dictatorship?
 
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:09 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
It's interesting how people who say they oppose 'fascism' and 'dictators' are angry about elected governments, going so far as to say that elected governments to be overthrown by a different government that would be composed of them and their allies. But isn't that the definition of fascism and dictatorship?


Not really. Governments may be - and in too many cases, are - elected on the basis of falsehoods and lies; the politics of fear is a powerful motivator among a less-educated and less-knowledgeable populus. Outside influences - which we have all seen emanating from one particular country in recent years - may influence voters to vote in ways that are not really in their best interests. The rise of wannabe dictators - and their fascist-looking leanings - can be the results of this demagoguery and disinformation.

To challenge the policies of the governments elected by these means (and, with all due respect, your claim of "overthrow" is pure hyperbole) is legitimate. To encourage a return to democracy - and a respect for the institutions in their own Constitutions, and enshrined in the nations' laws - is necessary. "Fascism and dictatorship" is a far different animal.
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LCDFlight
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:22 pm

alfa164 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
It's interesting how people who say they oppose 'fascism' and 'dictators' are angry about elected governments, going so far as to say that elected governments to be overthrown by a different government that would be composed of them and their allies. But isn't that the definition of fascism and dictatorship?


Not really. Governments may be - and in too many cases, are - elected on the basis of falsehoods and lies; the politics of fear is a powerful motivator among a less-educated and less-knowledgeable populus. Outside influences - which we have all seen emanating from one particular country in recent years - may influence voters to vote in ways that are not really in their best interests. The rise of wannabe dictators - and their fascist-looking leanings - can be the results of this demagoguery and disinformation.

To challenge the policies of the governments elected by these means (and, with all due respect, your claim of "overthrow" is pure hyperbole) is legitimate. To encourage a return to democracy - and a respect for the institutions in their own Constitutions, and enshrined in the nations' laws - is necessary. "Fascism and dictatorship" is a far different animal.


Makes no sense honestly, so you will need to explain it more. The arbiter of truth and morality will be... who, exactly? Should it be the clergy? Scientists, wisemen, the wealthy? Hereditary nobility? Party elders? Assad in Syria is a medical school graduate; would he be a good judge of truth and morality?

Who will chair this magical committee? I believe that voters will do the best job of sorting it out, and coincidentally they own the right to do it in many countries.
 
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:29 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Yesterday's numbers, today: 658 for Russia with 1 death ( http://coronamap.org/ ), so as expected, it follows the same curve as elsewhere.


Yepp - such jumps are generally attributed to increasing testing. But we are still far from tens of thousands, and hopefully increases start slowing and soon stop - everywhere.



But but you said they tested a lot.

According to this tabel, Moscow (53%) and Sint Petersburg's (65%) citizens are up and about. So I have a hard time believing that it will behave differently in Russia than in other countries, but hey what do I know..............
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alfa164
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:53 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
The arbiter of truth and morality will be... who, exactly? Should it be the clergy? Scientists, wisemen, the wealthy? Hereditary nobility? Party elders? Assad in Syria is a medical school graduate; would he be a good judge of truth and morality? Who will chair this magical committee? I believe that voters will do the best job of sorting it out, and coincidentally they own the right to do it in many countries.


As Dutchy previously pointed out, Hungary has signed-up to the ECHR, and the EU has the rights to penalize any member nation who disregards and defies the rules of that union. No "magical committee" is needed; just the intestinal fortitude to either strip Hungary of certain rights within the community.


I will also quote another expert authority on the issue, who posted this two months ago:

LCDFlight wrote:
If people refuse to stand up to dictators, this decision causes dictators get emboldened.



And, since you mentioned Assad:

LCDFlight wrote:
II believe that the US has declared Assad is a dangerous criminal. This is an incredibly important thing for Assad, because when Assad lays awake at night, shaking in fear and crying, he is probably wondering when the US will enforce international laws and help the Syrian people. Will he suffer? Will it be over quickly?



;)
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:51 pm

People in democracies don't necessarily understand what democracy is. It's more true in countries that have not known democracy for long. For a democracy to work well, you need a free press, independent and fair judiciary, various political parties, etc.

Not just an election once in a while.
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DL717
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:03 pm

The biggest problem with the EU in terms of cohesiveness is they are trying to get countries to stick together, each with their own full sovereignty. It’s attempt to be closer in model to the US, but US States have limited sovereignty. That’s a tough barrier to maintaining long term cohesiveness.
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Dutchy
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:19 pm

Aesma wrote:
People in democracies don't necessarily understand what democracy is. It's more true in countries that have not known democracy for long. For a democracy to work well, you need a free press, independent and fair judiciary, various political parties, etc.

Not just an election once in a while.


Indeed, elections are the end result, not. the beginning. And people confuse the rule of the majority with democracy, it isn't, it is only part of the equation, real democracies take into account the minorities as well and their rights.
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:20 pm

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Yesterday's numbers, today: 658 for Russia with 1 death ( http://coronamap.org/ ), so as expected, it follows the same curve as elsewhere.


Yepp - such jumps are generally attributed to increasing testing. But we are still far from tens of thousands, and hopefully increases start slowing and soon stop - everywhere.



But but you said they tested a lot.

According to this tabel, Moscow (53%) and Sint Petersburg's (65%) citizens are up and about. So I have a hard time believing that it will behave differently in Russia than in other countries, but hey what do I know..............


And Putin "asked" its citizens to stay indoors. So it is heading the same way as other countries.
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anrec80
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:12 pm

Dutchy wrote:
And Putin "asked" its citizens to stay indoors. So it is heading the same way as other countries.


If that's what's needed then that's what's needed. Hopefully Russia's efforts to contain the virus will succeed and there will be no significant number of cases and death toll.
 
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:23 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And Putin "asked" its citizens to stay indoors. So it is heading the same way as other countries.


If that's what's needed then that's what's needed. Hopefully Russia's efforts to contain the virus will succeed and there will be no significant number of cases and death toll.


> the test were subpar quality and thus unreliable, they were of Russian origin, so it could be that there were tests, but it is irrelevant because it isn't specific enough.
> Putin is indecisive, the Moscow mare is much more action gained, so restaurants will be closed and parks, so basically everything you said that Russia did great is gone.

And that's why all your arguments fail yet again. Orban, Putin, Bossenaro all are indecisive, luckily there are the local level who do act. And if Russia is spared an Italian scenario, it isn't because of your Putin, but despite the Putin regime. one positive thing though, the referendum in which Putin will get another two terms is postponed.
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:28 pm

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Please, when are we going to ask Hungarians? Parliament is going to vote itself out of existence till Orban calls it back again into session, next week.


This is up to Hungarians themselves. If their Parliament wants to vote itself out of existence, and Hungarians are OK with it, I don't see any issue anywhere here.

Oh, this is so tiresome, we are only forced to conclude that you are not willing to learn anything, the only question is why? You continue to repeat these utter lies. So I do not even call this a false statement anymore. You continue to blame the victims of these regimes not to uprise against these authoritarian regimes. And this fact alone strips you of all credibility on this subject.


One more thing about this, if it is the will of the people, why not have full democracy, with a fully free press, a fully independent justice system, fully free elections? I mean if it is the will of the people, it should not matter, right?
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:24 am

Please stick to discussing the topic. If the thread continues to go off topic, it will be locked.

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Francoflier
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:56 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And Putin "asked" its citizens to stay indoors. So it is heading the same way as other countries.


If that's what's needed then that's what's needed. Hopefully Russia's efforts to contain the virus will succeed and there will be no significant number of cases and death toll.


Like we will ever know... :sarcastic:

Just like every other dictatorship where the media is tightly controlled and censored, the numbers will be made to tell a story their leaders want to be told.
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Re: Hungary to consider bill that would allow Orbán to rule by decree

Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:43 am

Arguing with a Russian Nationalist is completely pointless. Not sure why people bother.

One thing I like about the pandemic is that stupid leaders who treat the virus as a conspiracy against then or whatever will have their stupidity reflected in the death count. Bolsonaro, Trump, Putin etc

And those who follow them loyally and don't take the relevant precautions will be at the highest risk of kicking the bucket.
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