avier wrote:

That's the issue with ones not wanting to be part of the evacuation flights and then complaining of how they are stranded there. And then they'll cry on social media and blame the govt through propaganda news outlets, not even the mainstream kinds.
And another user is randomly pitching in some court case angle to these evacuations, which is against false and has no source to back that claim as usual. Some just like to throw fake news and propaganda here even in such times. Sad.

The questions I asked have not been answered by anyone, My questions were and are simple.

Should embassies of India make more attempt to reach out to their citizens and if yes, how ? What sort of advice should they be giving the citizens and in situations like these, how not to spread panic and spread things out a little are probably open questions for which I have no answers. I am sure there is a checklist for embassies somewhere. If somebody knows any better, feel free to share. Instead of trying to put motivations on people\, I would rather have people share facts.

See for instance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeC458zRBMc

Now she is asking the Govt. to question and people start to question her.

Who is she, she was the reporter who broke both the harshad mehta and ketan parekh story at great personal cost to herself. She was attacked physically as well as she was made to resign Indian Express. It took her some time but because she had earned good-will from people because of her reportage (she was later given national and international awards for her reportage) she gave life to a magazine called moneylife. She also started a foundation called moneylife foundation whose sole purpose is helping the weak and elderly make good investments. Even during UPA II she was a sound critic of the Govt. when she was talking about the round-tripping of the funds for which the opposition i.e. the BJP on those days cheered her.

Now when the same Govt. is in power, she shows the same mirror, as the same round-tripping of funds and what not is happening and the Govt. says she is foreign govt. agent. This is what disgusts me. What the Govt. wants is people should see 'Ramayan' and 'Mahabharat' and forget all about those people who are walking hundreds of kilometers to reach their villages. There already have been couple of deaths of young children due to starvation in villages as reported in media.

What we need is testing, till that is done it could all be a waste, see https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/20/und ... ronavirus/

blrsea wrote:

WHO , two months back, tweeted on Jan 14th that there was no proof of human to human transmission from Wuhan virus. Rich of them to say that they warned India and other countries 2 months back.

WHO's tweet

In Jan end, when US was contemplating ban on chines visitors , WHO argued its not good to do it. Now all countries are doing it. Irony is that Chinese is banning international flights

Health experts warn China travel ban will hinder coronavirus response

The World Health Organization, which declared the outbreak a global health emergency this week, has recommended against any travel or trade restrictions in response to the outbreak. Member countries, however, do not have to comply with that guidance.

“Although travel restrictions may intuitively seem like the right thing to do, this is not something that WHO usually recommends,” said Tarik Jašarević, a WHO spokesperson. “This is because of the social disruption they cause and the intensive use of resources required,” he added.

What you are talking is the large geopolitics surrounding the issue. What has happened is both at IMF and UN, US left the table. Now as Shekhar Gupta has pointed out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWETHY4bKsk

This has enabled China to be the power that be. Now US can do all sorts of show and cry but will never tell why they left the table, because Trump wanted to save money. This is how geopolitics is played.

avier wrote:

...
And another user is randomly pitching in some court case angle to these evacuations, which is against false and has no source to back that claim as usual. Some just like to throw fake news and propaganda here even in such times. Sad.

Maybe you should run an anti-Emit Malware check on your device, I posted an Indian Express link. There are more links behind a paywall. There is a new phenomenon going on in India, the State which is the largest spender of advertisement money and corporations to appease the leader cutting off advertisements from any anti-Modi media outlets, so they go out of business.

The Hindu, The Wire, The Quint all are in the same boat not because they are tabloids because they write facts which Modi doesn't like.

On WHO issue, Modi already fired back saying it needs to reform, needless to say, he didn't like WHO comments about India. Sure WHO is China's puppet, everyone has been saying for months, because China has the power to dictate terms, not India. Where was Modi then?

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 835011.cms

dtw2hyd wrote:

avier wrote:

...
And another user is randomly pitching in some court case angle to these evacuations, which is against false and has no source to back that claim as usual. Some just like to throw fake news and propaganda here even in such times. Sad.

Maybe you should run an anti-Emit Malware check on your device, I posted an Indian Express link. There are more links behind a paywall. There is a new phenomenon going on in India, the State which is the largest spender of advertisement money and corporations to appease the leader cutting off advertisements from any anti-Modi media outlets, so they go out of business.

The Hindu, The Wire, The Quint all are in the same boat not because they are tabloids because they write facts which Modi doesn't like.

On WHO issue, Modi already fired back saying it needs to reform, needless to say, he didn't like WHO comments about India. Sure WHO is China's puppet, everyone has been saying for months, because China has the power to dictate terms, not India. Where was Modi then?

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 835011.cms

+1 as far as advertisements on mass media is concerned, if somebody wants to find you, they can use medianaama.com which gives some rough calculations of who is pumping money in the mainstream "news" channels and sure enough for the last 6 odd years, GOI, Baba Ramdev etc. have been pumping 50% of the ad money into TV. Should there be any wonder then that the news is slanted in one way. That is why we have news anchors asking questions like how do you eat mango and the whole fakiri thing.

blrsea wrote:

For people in India who watch news, its no surprise that more than 400 people were evacuated from Iran so far. For various reasons, some Indians want to push it till last minute and then scream about it. Same thing happened in yemen few years back when India evacuated Indians, some chose to stay back (incl a christian priest, some nurses from kerala etc) and they were brought back later at huge cost. In Iran, the virus affected much earlier. What were these people doing? Same in Italy/Europe, people were still going on tours/honeymoons etc even end of Feb, and they had to be evacuated back. They don't want to lose their tickets or cut short their trips, and then file cases asking govt to bail them out. Have zero pity for those morons.

I am against tax payers paying for any evacuations. allow commercial flights to come in, and let the people pay for their flight back. Only places like Wuhan or Yemen should be exception, where there was no flights operating. Govt should allow international airlines to operate an allow only citizens in.

Coronavirus: 120 Indians from Iran to reach Jaisalmer today, to be quarantined at Army facility

Coronavirus update: 450 Indians evacuated from virus-hit Iran, Italy

Quite a lot of that is true. Even the way it’s been implemented suggests that the authorities left a lot of critical things - including telling implementer like the police what they can or cannot do - to the very last minute. With predictable results. So much so, that the Information and Broadcasting Ministry is engaged in a rearguard action to defend how this has been implemented. It doesn’t look like they thought things through, does it?

As an aside, it’s all good and well saying commercial airlines should be allowed to operate, but it’s really weird that - on an aviation website no less - it hadn’t occurred to you that no one wants to operate commercial flights that will be more or less empty one way. Several countries are running repatriation flights. Not sure how you decided they’re not free - the German Government has pumped quite a bit of money into its repatriation flights. I suspect it’s a mixed bag of free and some cost recovery, depending on country.

pune wrote:

Umm... I wouldn't categorize people based on hindu or non-hindu. What I believe and what science also tells us it's all about the immunity system. A very simple example to illustrate my point.

These last days I heard stories that clouds will meet in the sky and fire will come down as a result.
I also heard that a meteor may hit earth.
So why would you not assume that I believe that Catholics are immune?

I meant to say upon the Hindu returning home I assume Hindu neighbors paid a visit. I further assume that these visiting neighbors were offered a cup of tea.
Catholics from the town probably touched the same door handles and ATM machine as the infected, but no problems so far.
I may be wrong in all this. These are just assumptions from hearsay.

pune wrote:

5 people go to a restaurant, 4 are ok and 1 develops reaction to the food. Now usually in the restaurant, people usually order few things and share between them. Now does this mean that the food wa bad or the person's immunity. As far as whether you are visiting sister-in-law, it's really upto you, you can be frank with her saying you are not comfortable due to the existing circumstances or give some excuse. It's really your call.

I meant to say that statistically speaking a lot of people will offer as well as accept tea while visiting relatives. It's therefore best to put everybody under house arrest.

Feeding the poor in communal kitchen is nice. Let's hope there is no typhoid Mary ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon ) among the cooks.
With migrant laborers crowding bus stands the time of necessary isolation increases. I guess once everybody is home/ stays in one place at least four weeks.
I find it annoying that people were requested to stay home voluntarily instead of giving four days to complete shopping and get home.
What are those who were foolish enough to stay home voluntarily going to eat?
I also wonder how chronic sick people will get medicines in these four weeks? What will be the nutritional standard of the population if there are no fruits and vegetables for four weeks? What are vegetable farmers going to do with their vegetables?
I have problems to imagine how all this is supposed to work out. The difficulties of a lock down increases exponentially with time. A correct start is crucial, but this start was patchwork.
A four week lock down after a four days preparation period is very different from a four weeks lock down with four hours notice.

avier wrote:

That's the issue with ones not wanting to be part of the evacuation flights and then complaining of how they are stranded there. And then they'll cry on social media and blame the govt through propaganda news outlets, not even the mainstream kinds.
And another user is randomly pitching in some court case angle to these evacuations, which is against false and has no source to back that claim as usual. Some just like to throw fake news and propaganda here even in such times. Sad.

Looks like my post got deleted. Anyway:

“The Supreme Court on Friday said hundreds of Shia pilgrims stranded in Qom city of Iran on account of the COVID-2019 pandemic were in urgent need of humanitarian assistance. The government should intervene immediately to alleviate their suffering.

Justices D.Y. Chandrachud and Surya Kant issued notice to the Centre after hearing senior advocate Sanjay Hegde, for petitioner Mustafa M.H., through videoconferencing.”

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 181703.ece

“The bench issued notice to the Centre and asked it to detail the steps being taken to bring them back and reach out to them with financial assistance. The petitioner said that around 750 Shia pilgrims went to Iran but only 250 of them have managed to return, leaving them rest stranded.”

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/sc-see ... 849038.cms

So... fake news? Propaganda? All of that is from Friday.

Many disturbing visuals of migrant labourers crowding Anand Vihar Bus terminal in Delhi were seen today:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 866297.cms



This is just a small hint of how bad things can get in India without a lockdown.

Hopefully no one in this crowd had Chinese virus.

anshabhi wrote:

This is just a small hint of how bad things can get in India without a lockdown.

Well, that's one way to put it. Or the government could have anticipated the mad rush and arranged transportation. India is full of migratory labor, because of the stigma attached to doing low-end jobs in their own state. People from the south do dirty jobs in the north, from the north do in the south. They won't take the same jobs in their own state. Maybe this event will change that attitude.

We also are in lockdown. All offices are closed, all non-essential businesses are closed, no dine-in service. You can go buy grocers, medicines, take-out food, and participate in outside activity with family or stay away six feet from others. We still have public transportation(very limited to start with here in Metro Detroit) for people without private transportation. There are hardly any people outside, literally no cops on the streets. Very peaceful, everyone going about their business.

Exact same rules, a total nightmare in India.

ElPistolero wrote:

“The Supreme Court on Friday said hundreds of Shia pilgrims stranded in Qom city of Iran on account of the COVID-2019 pandemic were in urgent need of humanitarian assistance. The government should intervene immediately to alleviate their suffering.

Really? You want to blame the govt because a bunch of imbeciles decided to go on a foreign pilgrimage, that too to Iran of all places on earth, during a global pandemic? Those folks didn't want to cut short their trip because their god is more important than the current global pandemic, and they would be saved by their almighty (?)

Well, yeah their family members can now file cases after the evacuations have already taken place and make it look like it's the govt's responsibility now to handle their misadventures.

And my post was more so directed at the other user who states no evacuation or efforts thereof have been made to brings back Indians from Iran. " Modi rolled his eyes away" like seriously? Ignorant of facts or sheer fakery on here?
Sitting across the globe in some other country, it's easy to harp about things one has no clear understanding of the reality here.

There have been couple of Air India flights along with GoI charted Mahan Air flights to bring back stranded Indians. On top of that, they're getting a free air ride to various place in Rajasthan for quarantine.

This is from today morning -
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livemi ... 71680.html

Where were those other bunch, who are stranded now, when these earlier evacuations happened? They thought they'll drag it till the end and then make some excuse they couldn't make it ?
"I shall not leave from here till I've sipped the holy water" ...yikes infected by now.

"Govt rescue us with free flights please", with our relatives filling court cases in India suddenly after the earlier evacuation flights have already happened.

These court cases were filed after the evacuations, so that still remains a big lie that " evacuations only happen after going through series of court cases" .

To sum up the plight of these leftovers now, was put across better by this user :

For people in India who watch news, its no surprise that more than 400 people were evacuated from Iran so far. For various reasons, some Indians want to push it till last minute and then scream about it. Same thing happened in yemen few years back when India evacuated Indians, some chose to stay back (incl a christian priest, some nurses from kerala etc) and they were brought back later at huge cost. In Iran, the virus affected much earlier. What were these people doing? Same in Italy/Europe, people were still going on tours/honeymoons etc even end of Feb, and they had to be evacuated back. They don't want to lose their tickets or cut short their trips, and then file cases asking govt to bail them out. Have zero pity for those morons.

avier wrote:

And my post was more so directed at the other user who states no evacuation or efforts thereof have been made to brings back Indians from Iran. " Modi rolled his eyes away" like seriously? Ignorant of facts or sheer fakery on here?
Sitting across the globe in some other country, it's easy to harp about things one has no clear understanding of the reality here.

Facts are: Hundreds of thousands are walking to their homes for the last three days. Hundreds are stuck in Iran.

Some may see it as incompetence and some may see malice. There is no option to spin this as some weird form of competence.

7500 miles away.
Trump and Michigan Governor are bickering publicly for days, but Trump never stopped federal assistance to Michigan. Trump took less than 18 hours to declare federal emergency assistance to Michigan and continue to bicker Governor is not appreciative of federal help.

Modi lacks empathy. He enjoys when poor people suffer. He enjoys when the elderly stand in line at ATMs for hours.

Trump is extremely abrasive but has empathy.

avier wrote:

Really?

Yes, really. You called the Supreme Court intervention “fake news and propaganda”. It’s not. The rest of your post is deflection. And full of inaccuracies.

avier wrote:

You want to blame the govt because a bunch of imbeciles decided to go on a foreign pilgrimage, that too to Iran of all places on earth, during a global pandemic?

They didn’t go to Iran during a global pandemic.

“Mr. Mustafa, a native of Ladakh, said his relatives from Kargil-Drass travelled along with a group of about 1000 pilgrims to Iran in December last for a three-month trip. They were scheduled to return on various dates from February 26, 2020. However, they were stranded due to the virus outbreak.”

That’s the information given to the Supreme Court. (https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 181703.ece)

Perhaps you knew in December that COVID-19 would turn into a global pandemic. The rest of us didn’t.

Congratulations on your foresight. Alternatively “fake news”, “propaganda” etc.

avier wrote:

Those folks didn't want to cut short their trip because their god is more important than the current global pandemic, and they would be saved by their almighty (?)

“Their god”. “Their almighty”. That’s what this is really about, isn’t it?

To some of us, they’re just Indian citizens stranded in another country in a time of need (global pandemic). To some of us, “their god” is irrelevant to how they, as Indian citizens, should be treated.

avier wrote:

Well, yeah their family members can now file cases after the evacuations have already taken place and make it look like it's the govt's responsibility now to handle their misadventures.

They would have cut it short if the Indian Government’a ban on flights to/from Iran had been properly implemented. Like this poorly-implemented lockdown, it wasn’t.

It caught Indian citizens in Iran by surprise and it caught Iranian citizens in India by surprise. So much so that the Iranian government publicly called out the Indian Government:

“Iran has asked India to take immediate steps to evacuate Indians from the Islamic country which has seen the highest number of casualties due to coronavirus outbreak outside China, where the disease originated.

The communication was made in a note verbale issued by the Iranian embassy in Delhi on Saturday.

“It is reminded to kind attention of the esteemed Ministry the necessity for taking immediate and prompt action for transfer of the nationals of both countries who have been affected as a result of the existing limitations,” says the note.”

https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-news ... M_amp.html

That note verbale was submitted after the ban. Most countries resolve these things before instituting bans. Iran called for “immediate action” on March 1. The SC is looking at this again on March 30. Quite the prompt response.

avier wrote:

And my post was more so directed at the other user who states no evacuation or efforts thereof have been made to brings back Indians from Iran. " Modi rolled his eyes away" like seriously? Ignorant of facts or sheer fakery on here?
Sitting across the globe in some other country, it's easy to harp about things one has no clear understanding of the reality here.

Really? Lol. Here’s what you wrote:

avier wrote:

And another user is randomly pitching in some court case angle to these evacuations, which is against false and has no source to back that claim as usual. Some just like to throw fake news and propaganda here even in such times. Sad.

I’m the only “another user” who referred to a court case. My lying eyes.

avier wrote:

There have been couple of Air India flights along with GoI charted Mahan Air flights to bring back stranded Indians. On top of that, they're getting a free air ride to various place in Rajasthan for quarantine.

This is from today morning -
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livemi ... 71680.html

Where were those other bunch, who are stranded now, when these earlier evacuations happened? They thought they'll drag it till the end and then make some excuse they couldn't make it ?
"I shall not leave from here till I've sipped the holy water" ...yikes infected by now.

"Govt rescue us with free flights please", with our relatives filling court cases in India suddenly after the earlier evacuation flights have already happened.

These court cases were filed after the evacuations, so that still remains a big lie that " evacuations only happen after going through series of court cases" .

Yes, I imagine they’re quite enjoying their extended sojourn in Iran:

“The public interest litigation, filed on behalf of Mustafa MH through advocate Ashish Virmani, claimed that there were 800 such pilgrims, most of them from not too affluent families, stuck in Iran without any food supplies or health facilities. They were expected to return two weeks ago. Of them, 250 may be corona positive, the petition said and expressed the fear that the disease might affect all the others in the group. The petition demanded their immediate evacuation.

The petition said that the pilgrims had been accommodated in hotel rooms in groups of four-five. “It is extremely important to note that the situation of spread of corona is extremely critical in Iran. In fact, there may be as many as 250 people within the group of the aforesaid pilgrims who could be positive for corona. In such a situation, accommodating persons together is a serious health hazard and could lead to disastrous consequences for such pilgrims,” it said.”

https://m.economictimes.com/news/politi ... 846431.cms

Note that they were booked to return two weeks ago (in March). India banned flights in February without adequate warning, stranding Iranian citizens in India, which the Iranian government seems to be more concerned about than Indian citizens like you are about Indian citizens stuck elsewhere.

As an aside, these court cases shouldn’t have to happen at all. Many, many countries are repatriating citizens right now. They don’t have to petition courts to make it happen.

avier wrote:

To sum up the plight of these leftovers now, was put across better by this user :

For people in India who watch news, its no surprise that more than 400 people were evacuated from Iran so far. For various reasons, some Indians want to push it till last minute and then scream about it. Same thing happened in yemen few years back when India evacuated Indians, some chose to stay back (incl a christian priest, some nurses from kerala etc) and they were brought back later at huge cost. In Iran, the virus affected much earlier. What were these people doing? Same in Italy/Europe, people were still going on tours/honeymoons etc even end of Feb, and they had to be evacuated back. They don't want to lose their tickets or cut short their trips, and then file cases asking govt to bail them out. Have zero pity for those morons.

I somewhat agree with the other poster that some new money types, who don’t think the rules apply to them, probably travelled to hot zones when they shouldn’t have. That said, it’s quite obviously ridiculous to tar pilgrims who departed on a 3 month pilgrimage before anybody knew there was anything to be concerned about, with the same brush.

If the Indian government had planned this properly, it wouldn’t have been pulled up publicly by the Iranian government for stranding Iranians in India. If the Iranian government didn’t know this ban was coming, how were a bunch of Indian pilgrims in Iran supposed to know?

As for sympathy, these folk fall at the lower end of the income spectrum. That’s not a segment that generates much sympathy in India at the best of times. But this isn’t about sympathy. It’s about nations doing right by their citizens. Regardless of “their god”, “their almighty” etc.

@ElPistolero well said. Sharing a video which perhaps @avier may not be aware of, it's an informative video. Of course, you can check her other videos and almost all of them say good things about India, so see and then we can discuss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQBsB1lO6gQ

Sokes wrote:

...
I have problems to imagine how all this is supposed to work out. The difficulties of a lock down increases exponentially with time. A correct start is crucial, but this start was patchwork.
A four week lock down after a four days preparation period is very different from a four weeks lock down with four hours notice.

I think I'm wrong.
Maybe 80, maybe 150 million Indians are migrant laborer. Who knows. It may take Indian railways many days in totally overcrowded trains to transport them to their home town.
Moreover I believe in an epidemic everybody has to stay where he/ she is. I may make a 2 day exception for tourists which can be isolated on arrival home, but not for millions of migrant laborers.

Should the government have given more time for shopping? I believe supermarkets were mostly sold out. Of course those who followed the voluntary house arrest are really the stupid now. Overcrowding, maybe breakdown of civil order may have been the alternative.

"Since Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced a 21 day lockdown in the country on Tuesday, there’s been a large movement of people out of large cities like the capital New Delhi and the financial center of Mumbai, trying to reach their homes after their work disappeared overnight. This is a violation of lockdown measures to maintain social distance, the home ministry said in a statement on Sunday.
Migrant workers will be kept in state-run quarantine facilities, while the federal government has asked states to provide shelter and food to those stranded due to the lockdown measures."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... tions-rise

Sokes wrote:

Sokes wrote:

...
I have problems to imagine how all this is supposed to work out. The difficulties of a lock down increases exponentially with time. A correct start is crucial, but this start was patchwork.
A four week lock down after a four days preparation period is very different from a four weeks lock down with four hours notice.

I think I'm wrong.
Maybe 80, maybe 150 million Indians are migrant laborer. Who knows. It may take Indian railways many days in totally overcrowded trains to transport them to their home town.
Moreover I believe in an epidemic everybody has to stay where he/ she is. I may make a 2 day exception for tourists which can be isolated on arrival home, but not for millions of migrant laborers.

Should the government have given more time for shopping? I believe supermarkets were mostly sold out. Of course those who followed the voluntary house arrest are really the stupid now. Overcrowding, maybe breakdown of civil order may have been the alternative.

"Since Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced a 21 day lockdown in the country on Tuesday, there’s been a large movement of people out of large cities like the capital New Delhi and the financial center of Mumbai, trying to reach their homes after their work disappeared overnight. This is a violation of lockdown measures to maintain social distance, the home ministry said in a statement on Sunday.
Migrant workers will be kept in state-run quarantine facilities, while the federal government has asked states to provide shelter and food to those stranded due to the lockdown measures."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... tions-rise

According to WEO (World Economic Forum) India has 139 millions internal migrants

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/10/ ... rget-them/ and this is 2017 reports. With joblessness rising, particularly the last couple of years, it is possible that the number may be much higher. The problem is all the incentives shared by the Govt. can be had by the migrant laborer only when he comes to the village.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVRuJD4QVEI

They know that for 3 months there will be no work and they have no savings for sure. So for them, the best thing to do would be to go back. If I were in their place, I would have probably done the same if I had a family either with me or in village . The Indian State had always been devious with its dealings of rural folk. I did read a simplistic study which shared some of the push and pull factors which make them come to cities but lot of academic work needs to be done in that area. Some of it is behind paywalls and lot of it has been suprressed by the state itself. I know of few studies which were being done by private menagement schools which were sabotaged. Of course over the last 6 years, funding has almost been stopped for social sciences and humanities under the present Govt.

pune wrote:

According to WEO (World Economic Forum) India has 139 millions internal migrants

And how do they want to know this?

pune wrote:

The problem is all the incentives shared by the Govt. can be had by the migrant laborer only when he comes to the village.

However migrant laborers can have a bank account where they work. In cities next to ATM machines there are often machines which accept cash to credit on the account. I know a bank which often has a long queue of laborers waiting for their turn.
The good thing about this crisis: I hope in future employers will have to register unqualified labor, e.g. in restaurants. There will be legal consequences of this situation, and they will be for the good of the laborers.

pune wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVRuJD4QVEI

They offered and accepted a glass of water. I would rather not take advise from them.
I doubt the statement that migrant laborers eat at the roadside. Maybe it's true in big cities. What I know for Goa is that e.g. four of them share a room. One cooks, one washes clothes ...
I watched the video only seven minutes. Why do rich people in India/ newspapers pretend that they are full of compassion for the poor? No differentiated discussion seem possible.

pune wrote:

They know that for 3 months there will be no work and they have no savings for sure.

All 139 millions of them don't have savings?
I can understand that they want to go home. As this would take too long in overcrowded conditions it's the government's duty to prevent it.

My wife disagrees with me on this. She says if there is no income the landlords will throw them out. We also know a case where workers from a restaurant were sent home for three months. They have no own room, they spread a mat on the restaurant floor at night. Even though it was before the lockdown, they came back. I guess trains were overcrowded. The restaurant owner took them back in, but what if the owner is without empathy?
There will be people whose need for transport is sincere. But how can the government differentiate?

pune wrote:

The Indian State had always been devious with its dealings of rural folk. I did read a simplistic study which shared some of the push and pull factors which make them come to cities but lot of academic work needs to be done in that area. Some of it is behind paywalls and lot of it has been suprressed by the state itself. I know of few studies which were being done by private menagement schools which were sabotaged. Of course over the last 6 years, funding has almost been stopped for social sciences and humanities under the present Govt.

Suppressed by the state? I believe Indian freedom of speech is better than e.g. American freedom of speech.
Can you give an example?

About academic work:
Goethe: "Und willst Du dich am Ganzen erquicken, so musst Du das Ganze im Kleinen erblicken."
In English: "And do you want to get a view of the whole, you have to see the whole in the small." Small of course means particular incident.

I married into the Indian Lumpenproletariat, so I have excellent insight. I can tell you what is the problem.
One day I entered my mother in law's house. She is below poverty line. It so happened that a new rule had come. She got ration rice for one Rupee/ kg. Cleaning the rice on the floor she looked up happy and laughing, telling it is only one Rupee. That's her idea of good politics. I asked her why her sons have to work in another state if her government is so wonderful. Answer: "Who gives jobs here?"
She never had the thought that job availability may be related to politics. She is not interested in news unless there was a tragedy. And that's the problem of India: That my mother in law has the vote. It's also the reason why people migrate for work.
Do you need any more academic studies?
Anyway the young generation is smarter. In time this problem will get smaller.

Sokes wrote:

And how do they want to know this?

Can you re-phrase what you wanted to ask by the above ? You probably were asking how they estimated the number. I have read few papers on the subject on farmers which is a related subject. Do you know for instance the landlord would be recognized by the Indian state as farmer while the tenant farmer will be not. The same is true of lot of women. In fact, they are the most under-represented figures in most surveys done by the state. Why, while I have theories, have no real answer.

Sokes wrote:

However migrant laborers can have a bank account where they work. In cities next to ATM machines there are often machines which accept cash to credit on the account. I know a bank which often has a long queue of laborers waiting for their turn.
The good thing about this crisis: I hope in future employers will have to register unqualified labor, e.g. in restaurants. There will be legal consequences of this situation, and they will be for the good of the laborers.

The problem with most laborers are often a combination of things. For instance, most ATM's have hindi, english and regional language of the state. For somebody who is a migrant laborer he does not know that language. So s/he would be unable to interact with the machine and would have to depend on somebody else. I have seen, heard and even seen in media numerous times how village people are cheated by people in guise of 'helping' . Hell, banks cheat us all the time irrespective of private or public and have had to fight a lot to get my due share. Do you think village people can be assertive in front of big bank ? Put yourself in their shoes. The person doesn't know the banking personnel, unfamiliar place, language, customs etc. They only know things which their own brothers/sisters who have migrated before to that particular city tell them. I am sure you have seen that most of the laborers are in bunches as familiarity makes things easier.

Sokes wrote:

They offered and accepted a glass of water. I would rather not take advise from them.
I doubt the statement that migrant laborers eat at the roadside. Maybe it's true in big cities. What I know for Goa is that e.g. four of them share a room. One cooks, one washes clothes ...
I watched the video only seven minutes. Why do rich people in India/ newspapers pretend that they are full of compassion for the poor? No differentiated discussion seem possible.

First up, which mainstream media channel even did something like this. While you are welcome to have your own views, I can share only my anecdotal experience both in Maharashtra as well as in Punjab where I have had the pleasure of taking lifts (paid them money) and see life from their perspective. While what you say is true partially, there is usually two or three depending on how long the journey is. One of them is the cook. Although, yes at times they do cook, they don't do it everyday. Most of the truckers have their own places which they eat food at. In fact, youtube is full of videos. Similarly, for laborers it all depends. If they have a family or a women for sure they may do the cooking, but many a times, they may take stuff from roadside vendors. Just near my home I used to know of a vendor who would make his money of the other laborers. He would give them sabzi and roti. The roti being coarse, I did try it one time but wasn't able to swallow it and the sabzi had too much spice for me. Now how widely this is or not can only be known by people. The other point which you seemed to have missed is that prices of all essentials have risen quite a lot. In fact, all the veggies around my place have been thrice/four times the normal price. The policeman have been taking hafta in front of us, but we have normalized that as we know they cannot take haftas from restaurants and other places of business. I do not know the situation at your end hence cannot comment.

For the uninitiated hafta or haftas are bribes. They have been part of the indian society since I was born and even before.

Sokes wrote:

All 139 millions of them don't have savings?
I can understand that they want to go home. As this would take too long in overcrowded conditions it's the government's duty to prevent it.

My wife disagrees with me on this. She says if there is no income the landlords will throw them out. We also know a case where workers from a restaurant were sent home for three months. They have no own room, they spread a mat on the restaurant floor at night. Even though it was before the lockdown, they came back. I guess trains were overcrowded. The restaurant owner took them back in, but what if the owner is without empathy?
There will be people whose need for transport is sincere. But how can the government differentiate?

What you are forgetting is that the Rabi crops are supposed to be cut around the corner. Most of the people would have sent money home and they would have been waiting for the sale of rabi crops to happen in order to make their ends meet. For e.g. if the lockdown were say to be done from a month from now, you perhaps wouldn't have seen such a huge number of migrants as they would be back home cutting the crops and selling it at mandis. This is something which was shared in the interview which you missed.

Sokes wrote:

Suppressed by the state? I believe Indian freedom of speech is better than e.g. American freedom of speech.
Can you give an example?

About academic work:
Goethe: "Und willst Du dich am Ganzen erquicken, so musst Du das Ganze im Kleinen erblicken."
In English: "And do you want to get a view of the whole, you have to see the whole in the small." Small of course means particular incident.

I married into the Indian Lumpenproletariat, so I have excellent insight. I can tell you what is the problem.
One day I entered my mother in law's house. She is below poverty line. It so happened that a new rule had come. She got ration rice for one Rupee/ kg. Cleaning the rice on the floor she looked up happy and laughing, telling it is only one Rupee. That's her idea of good politics. I asked her why her sons have to work in another state if her government is so wonderful. Answer: "Who gives jobs here?"
She never had the thought that job availability may be related to politics. She is not interested in news unless there was a tragedy. And that's the problem of India: That my mother in law has the vote. It's also the reason why people migrate for work.
Do you need any more academic studies?
Anyway the young generation is smarter. In time this problem will get smaller.

While this is from leftist economic weekly, this should be enough to get your attention.

https://www.epw.in/engage/article/educa ... -commodity

Even in United States it is a problem as well as South Africa, increasingly we are seeing education loans. Now nobody is asking what might be happening to those students who got loans for studies but now unable to find jobs. People have tried RTI to find these stats about number of people taking loans for education and defaulting but banks have called it 'a trade secret' which frankly I don't understand.

It seems I blamed others for ignorance, when I was ignorant. Corona infection seems to go via lungs, not stomach. Apparently the risk in restaurants is the congestion, not the food. I'm surprised considering how much importance is given to hand wash and not touching the face. Anyways I was wrong.

I go off topic. Skip if not interested.

pune wrote:

Do you know for instance the landlord would be recognized by the Indian state as farmer while the tenant farmer will be not.

I am surprised why landless laborers agree to these policies. Probably they are people like my mother in law. Give them monthly a little rice or a drink before the election and you are good to rule another few years.

pune wrote:

The person doesn't know the banking personnel, unfamiliar place, language, customs etc. They only know things which their own brothers/sisters who have migrated before to that particular city tell them. I am sure you have seen that most of the laborers are in bunches as familiarity makes things easier.

Educated Indians also come in bunches to the airport. Most laborers are daily smart. They are not small children which need to hold mother's hand not to get lost.

pune wrote:

Just near my home I used to know of a vendor who would make his money of the other laborers. He would give them sabzi and roti. The roti being coarse, I did try it one time but wasn't able to swallow it and the sabzi had too much spice for me. Now how widely this is or not can only be known by people. The other point which you seemed to have missed is that prices of all essentials have risen quite a lot.

Truck drivers are known to eat outside. Maybe the truck is a high capital cost and the owner prefers the drivers to finish food fast?
I know factory workers go for snacks to restaurants. But breakfast and dinner of laborers is mostly home made. For lunch they mostly bring a tiffin.

pune wrote:

While this is from leftist economic weekly, this should be enough to get your attention.
https://www.epw.in/engage/article/educa ... -commodity
Even in United States it is a problem as well as South Africa, increasingly we are seeing education loans. Now nobody is asking what might be happening to those students who got loans for studies but now unable to find jobs. People have tried RTI to find these stats about number of people taking loans for education and defaulting but banks have called it 'a trade secret' which frankly I don't understand.

I never thought that debt for studies may force a woman to marry according to financial considerations. Interesting. I don't move much among educated Indians. Does it fit your experience? Let me ask like this: If the parents financed the studies of a daughter through savings, does she have a higher chance to marry according to her choice?

I also believe that education is the government's duty. But I don't know people who get upset over educational policies. I remember in Goa there was a discussion about the language for studies. I find that rather unimportant. Excluding Nitish Kumar I never heard of a politician whose election program was to make classes smaller and to employ teachers with higher qualification. And with Kumar I don't know if it was in his election program. Strange enough parents do care for education. Maybe they just don't know what to look for.

In Goa the election program is basically how much women sitting at home should get a month. One should assume that such generosity should rather be directed to old people. But old people are not numerous enough. Mostly one son or one daughter pays most for the parents' upkeep. The sons and daughters who prefer to spend money for their own purpose prefer government subsidy for themselves instead of for their old parents.
What people vote is what you get. Why to complain about politicians?

Sokes wrote:

However migrant laborers can have a bank account where they work. In cities next to ATM machines there are often machines which accept cash to credit on the account. I know a bank which often has a long queue of laborers waiting for their turn.

You might want to cut down listening to "Mann Ki Baat" program on Radio.

For those not aware of this program
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mann_Ki_Baat

Sokes wrote:

The good thing about this crisis: I hope in future employers will have to register unqualified labor, e.g. in restaurants. There will be legal consequences of this situation, and they will be for the good of the laborers.

Demonetization supposed to eliminate the informal economy, still survives, Modi cannot comprehend, continues to try to eliminate whatever small pieces left, even at human cost.

Freedom of Speech America (vs) India
Watch any American late-night show for last 3+ years on Trump, I dare any Indian TV show host say the same about Modi and see the light of day.

Sokes wrote:

It seems I blamed others for ignorance, when I was ignorant. Corona infection seems to go via lungs, not stomach. Apparently the risk in restaurants is the congestion, not the food. I'm surprised considering how much importance is given to hand wash and not touching the face. Anyways I was wrong.

I go off topic. Skip if not interested.

No problem. It is interesting but only if you have not seen Virus https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8941440/ . If you have not seen it, it is worth seeing. The virus therein is also very much related to one of the 'actors' which is suspected in the current Coronavirus. I don't want to give the story away but you can get the movie on netflix or on torrents depending on what you want.

Sokes wrote:

I am surprised why landless laborers agree to these policies. Probably they are people like my mother in law. Give them monthly a little rice or a drink before the election and you are good to rule another few years.

It is a complex topic. What you are saying is perhaps a bit simplistic. I have seen some village politics up-close and some which can be derived via movies. Dunno if you have seen 1976 manthan for e.g. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074858/ In fact most of the movies in which naseeruddin shah acted in the 70's and 80's which was known as parallel cinema were to show the struggle of the common man, especially the farmer. It all goes back to Do bigha zameen https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0045693/ . We seem to have lost that empathy towards the farmer and have removed him from cinema altogether even though 60% of the population still resides in the villages.

Even last year, farmers from south india in tens of thousands came to delhi, rajghat in order to make their voices heard only to see that the state is deaf and mute. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPrJd2cytJE . They did lot of things like mock shamshan to highlight the growing number of suicides by farmers every year. With each suicide the farmer's family is put more into destitution, poverty and exploitation. Many a times the children and wife are driven to live via prostitution. They know they cannot raise their hand otherwise the state will use its iron hand. Dunno if you have seen the lallantop news. For e.g. see this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1LpYZGE9Ms . I share this as consumers we are hit by high onion prices while the farmers are not getting their just dues. The whole APMC is within the purview of the political masters or powers that be.

Sokes wrote:

Educated Indians also come in bunches to the airport. Most laborers are daily smart. They are not small children which need to hold mother's hand not to get lost.

That is again a bit simplistic. What can a laborer do if the bank cheats him or her. For that matter even you and I . In fact, today I was cheated for a few hundred rupees both in a leading private bank as well as a public bank. I had term deposits in both the banks and I had calculated the how much I should get. The TDS calculation I had calculated and the TDS calculation done by the bank are different. Why are those numbers different I don't know. In both the cases, irrespective of whether it is public sector bank or private sector the line said was same ' We don't know, this is the number told by the system' . In both the cases, they cannot override the system and you cannot say that the system is faulty.

Sokes wrote:

Truck drivers are known to eat outside. Maybe the truck is a high capital cost and the owner prefers the drivers to finish food fast?
I know factory workers go for snacks to restaurants. But breakfast and dinner of laborers is mostly home made. For lunch they mostly bring a tiffin.

What you are saying is true of factory workers and even office-going workers. For laborers it may partly be true, partly not it really all depends on how different groups go about doing the work.

As far as truck drivers in India is concerned, it is the opposite. There have been quite a number of detailed studies on this particular topic, since the 1990s. See these small reports and one big detailed study shared below -

https://pib.gov.in/newsite/mbErel.aspx?relid=84627
https://www.livemint.com/Politics/M6Sam ... n-fre.html
http://www.aitd.net.in/pdf/studies/13.% ... 0INDIA.pdf

From my experience with truck drivers they often are pretty lonely people having high-stress jobs. 20 days out of month they are out of the city, sometimes more . Most of them get into alcohol or drugs due to various issues but which is not told by most people.

See https://www.trukky.com/blog/medical-cam ... ed-trukky/
https://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.c ... t/64664739

Sleep apnea is common in truck drivers. In fact, most trucking fleets don't give a damn about the drivers. In fact, couple of years ago, there was move to sensitize the corporates about how truckers are suffering, the corporates push backed so strongly that all recommendations were swept under the rug or put into a trunk or whatever analogy you prefer. It goes without saying that corporates are the ones who fund political parties while truckers are fodder.

Sokes wrote:

I never thought that debt for studies may force a woman to marry according to financial considerations. Interesting. I don't move much among educated Indians. Does it fit your experience? Let me ask like this: If the parents financed the studies of a daughter through savings, does she have a higher chance to marry according to her choice?

It would very much depend on where she is, what strata of society she belongs to and if she has her own money. For e.g. I have seen women in south India as well as north India to be pretty assertive even in villages compared to say north-eastern states and elsewhere. See this for e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/global-deve ... ic-slavery . This is very much the case in both Haryana as well as Punjab as women are not looked kindly upon. They are killed before birth (neo-natal murder) or even after they birth. The 'honor' system makes victims of women over there. You can just look at the skewed male-female ratio in both these states compared to average or even better southern states. Again too many complexities but that's the way India is

Sokes wrote:

I also believe that education is the government's duty. But I don't know people who get upset over educational policies. I remember in Goa there was a discussion about the language for studies. I find that rather unimportant. Excluding Nitish Kumar I never heard of a politician whose election program was to make classes smaller and to employ teachers with higher qualification. And with Kumar I don't know if it was in his election program. Strange enough parents do care for education. Maybe they just don't know what to look for.

In Goa the election program is basically how much women sitting at home should get a month. One should assume that such generosity should rather be directed to old people. But old people are not numerous enough. Mostly one son or one daughter pays most for the parents' upkeep. The sons and daughters who prefer to spend money for their own purpose prefer government subsidy for themselves instead of for their old parents.
What people vote is what you get. Why to complain about politicians?

I have been to Goa, in fact lived in South Goa for about six months. I am and will always be in love with the ladies of the fish market. Anyways, I found Goan culture in many ways is similar to south indian culture but the portugese reign left its own particular imprint on the Goan mindset. The Goan catholics are very progressive in some ways and quite regressive/traditional in many other ways. I am not a Christian but I believe they are more evangilical christians by nature. I found Goans to be quite fond of nature but found them to be equally mad whether it comes to drinking and being merry and what not. Perhaps both go hand in hand. I also do find that most Goans are happy-go-lucky people because for them just having a shack or two is enough to make some money from tourists. Of course, the last few years it hasn't been the best of days for them especially since a dutch national girl was raped and made international news. Sadly, the die is cast and I have found most Goans to be happy with what they have instead of perhaps people like us who want to be constantly be better. Of course Adani is taking lot of the minerals out of Goa which is making the environment crazy but that's a different thing altogether. In fact, he got the second rail line on Konkan Railways just so he could extract as much minerals as he can out of Goa. Some of the news -

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 028413.cms?

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 584652.cms

I have been to Goan colleges and most students are happy-go-lucky rather than what you see in metro cities.

dtw2hyd wrote:

Freedom of Speech America (vs) India
Watch any American late-night show for last 3+ years on Trump, I dare any Indian TV show host say the same about Modi and see the light of day.

Ironic that you mention Trump bashing as example for freedom of speech. You are aware that Trump is somebody from outside the system? Who was more criticized by media, George Bush or Trump?
I think to ridicule politicians like we do in the West is not Indian culture. In some places of India in panchayat meetings villagers like to sit at the feet of the surpanch.
I believe you have a problem to accept Indian realities. Nice video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx6GX7wOPQ8

But in another respect I have to agree with you. I'm actually not qualified to judge the freedom of US media. My prejudice derives from US media repeating claims of US policians about Iran's weapons of mass destruction. After Irak I would assume a more careful reporting. I agree it's a prejudice, but I believe US media are a worse brainwash than in other places.

About your anti-Modi attitude: How do you explain that the people of Delhi voted for AAP in their municipal election, but for Modi in central election? I believe we can exclude that they are ideological motivated.
I'm an agnostic Christian and a foreigner in India. How comes that I like his policies? Because I am hardline Hindutva?

Sokes wrote:

Ironic that you mention Trump bashing as example for freedom of speech. You are aware that Trump is somebody from outside the system? Who was more criticized by media, George Bush or Trump?

There is back and forth bickering between Trump and Media every day. Government or GOP is not trying to silence anyone. Trump doesn't have a paid IT cell trolling everyone who questions him. He does with his own Twitter account.

Stephen Colbert's show ratings are through the roof since Trump became president.
John Oliver got his US Citizenship under Trump's presidency. You criticize Modi or his policies, Gandhi(Bapu not Pappu)'s citizenship will be doubtful. Is Deepika Padukone still an Indian?

Sokes wrote:

About your anti-Modi attitude: How do you explain that the people of Delhi voted for AAP in their municipal election, but for Modi in central election? I believe we can exclude that they are ideological motivated.
I'm an agnostic Christian and a foreigner in India. How comes that I like his policies? Because I am hardline Hindutva?

I am a practicing Hindu, none of his actions match Hindu values. He comes out as someone with troubled childhood holding grudge against poor, frail and elderly. Totally non-Hindu.

@pune
I read stories of upper caste men in Haryana group rapping a lower caste woman of a family that didn't stick to social code. I don't know about Haryana, but it doesn't seem to be a good place to live in. Repeated Afghan invasion reached till Delhi. Maybe the repeated violence spoilt the culture. Or maybe the adventurers in these Afghan armies raped women, thereby changing the genetic makeup of the population. I believe not aborting a pregnancy caused by rape is a crime against humanity for all future generations.

Today my neighbor got a visit from her father. I said to my wife that we should grumble.
Suppose on the day before the ban I infected myself with corona. At least after 12 days I will be symptomatic. That's when I become most contagious. All members of my household get immunity or show symptoms within another 12 days. I don't know how many more days one is contagious, but I guess within 10 days people should be fine or in hospital. That leads to one month lockdown.

If my neighbor's father comes to visit after one week and goes back to his household we are back at day 0. I said we should say something. My wife opposed. We would spoil the relationship. If one can't discuss a rather small conflict with a neighbor, no wonder psychopaths can just buy slaves with neighbors keeping quiet.
But aren't arranged marriages without the child's consent, so common a few decades back, very similar?


Goa has a deep natural harbor.
"MPT briefly became the leading iron ore exporting port in India, with about 54.50 million metric tonnes (MMT) of iron ore traffic in 2010–11 (about 90% of this was exported to China).[22] Subsequently, the port's cargo volume dropped to 39 MMT in 2011-12, with iron ore accounting for 29.21 MMT, due to a global reduction in demand for iron ore.[2]
Berth numbers 10 and 11 of MPT are dedicated to coal handling.[23] MPT also exports managanese and bauxite.[24][25]" "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormugao_ ... s_of_cargo

What makes you think double tracking of a railway (still far from Goa) is for Adani?

Sokes wrote:

...
Or maybe the adventurers in these Afghan armies raped women, thereby changing the genetic makeup of the population.

"Lawlessness during wars and civil conflicts can create a culture of impunity towards human rights abuses of civilians. Among some armies, looting of civilian areas is considered a way for soldiers to supplement their often meager income, which can be unstable if soldiers are not paid on time. Some militias that cannot afford to adequately pay their troops promote pillaging as a compensation for victory, and rape of civilians can be seen as a reward for winning battles."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wartime_s ... nce#Causes

Thinking more about it I remembered that Punjab and Haryana both have a drug abuse problem.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 050295.cms
Both were affected by repeated Afghan adventurers' invasions.

Antisocial personality disorder belongs to cluster B. That means offspring has a high probability to be in cluster B. To join armies in times before antibiotics was very high risk. It attracted those without fear with the hope to be able to plunder and possibly rape. In short, people with antisocial personality disorder.

"The various studies allow estimating that between 65% and 90% of subjects treated for substance abuse or dependence have at least one concomitant PT. Studies show a higher prevalence of Cluster C for alcohol consumption and Histrionic, Narcissistic, Boundary and Antisocial Disorders (Cluster B) for illegal drugs, mainly cocaine. Cluster B is the one that the literature has most related to substance use. It is also the group in which there is a greater predominance of impulsivity, which would be worth remembering its role as a vulnerability factor for addictions."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 381730562X
PT is supposed to be PD, which is Personality Disorder
Boundery is supposed to be Borderline

It would be interesting to compare the districts with highest drug abuse problems with the districts of highest violence during partition.

Sokes wrote:

@pune
I read stories of upper caste men in Haryana group rapping a lower caste woman of a family that didn't stick to social code. I don't know about Haryana, but it doesn't seem to be a good place to live in. Repeated Afghan invasion reached till Delhi. Maybe the repeated violence spoilt the culture. Or maybe the adventurers in these Afghan armies raped women, thereby changing the genetic makeup of the population. I believe not aborting a pregnancy caused by rape is a crime against humanity for all future generations.

Are you saying before Afghans came there were no rapes, no lust . Vatsyayana Mallanaga, the author of Kama Sutra described rape and this was much before, that I believe was Gupta empire and 3rd century while Muslims/Afghanistan came in 12th century. And this was the first recorded or written down account. Although I'm sure rape started much earlier. And this is to be noted that apparently in Vatsanya's time prostitutes were given center attention and had respect in the society and not looked down as they are today. They were looked as healers of mind and body unlike today. Of course, some 'purists' can't/won't digest that fact because we became more Victorian than Britishers were in their era.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_co ... bcontinent

As far as rapes, rapists and commentary is concerned, you just need to look at the comments made by various RW leaders both in the Delhi Rape case as well as the Kuldeep Sengar rape case, Nithyananda sex scandal, Swami Chinmayananda sex scandal as well as Roopa Ganguly prostitution racket. All of them belong to one particular party.

But this is not to say that other people from other religions don't do it, for e.g. the rapes by the christian priests in Kerala

https://www.ndtv.com/kerala-news/2-of-5 ... il-1877077

In fact, NCRB ( National Crime Records Bureau) has been pretty lax in sharing stats. which have increased in the last few years. Most particularly in Uttar Pradesh which has BJP's Yogi Adityanath in power.

https://www.youthkiawaaz.com/2020/03/wt ... nst-women/

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/28/worl ... ennai.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilL6O7O4rAA

I do hope you see 'India's Daughter' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India%27s_Daughter . Interestingly, most of our venerated leaders spoke the same things or similar things to what the convicted rapists spoke.

Another thing, BJP which has complete majority in Lok Sabha why doesn't it implement the 33.7% reservation for women in parliament. When they were in opposition, they very much wanted it, now that they are in power they are strangely silent on the issue. The upper house has already cleared the bill and just needs ratification from the lower house. In the 6 years he didn't get the time to do that ?

Sokes wrote:

Today my neighbor got a visit from her father. I said to my wife that we should grumble.
Suppose on the day before the ban I infected myself with corona. At least after 12 days I will be symptomatic. That's when I become most contagious. All members of my household get immunity or show symptoms within another 12 days. I don't know how many more days one is contagious, but I guess within 10 days people should be fine or in hospital. That leads to one month lockdown.

If my neighbor's father comes to visit after one week and goes back to his household we are back at day 0. I said we should say something. My wife opposed. We would spoil the relationship. If one can't discuss a rather small conflict with a neighbor, no wonder psychopaths can just buy slaves with neighbors keeping quiet.
But aren't arranged marriages without the child's consent, so common a few decades back, very similar?

As everything else, it all depends. In some scenarios, it could be like that. It really depends on the child-relationship with her parents and how she herself is. If a person is devious or/and assertive they would find a way, if not they will compromise with the situation. The biggest point for most women is financial independance. Even the judiciary sexism runs deep.

See https://theprint.in/opinion/sexism-in-i ... ji/251727/

In such a scenario do you think women will get recourse to justice and have laws in her favor.

Sokes wrote:

Goa has a deep natural harbor.
"MPT briefly became the leading iron ore exporting port in India, with about 54.50 million metric tonnes (MMT) of iron ore traffic in 2010–11 (about 90% of this was exported to China).[22] Subsequently, the port's cargo volume dropped to 39 MMT in 2011-12, with iron ore accounting for 29.21 MMT, due to a global reduction in demand for iron ore.[2]
Berth numbers 10 and 11 of MPT are dedicated to coal handling.[23] MPT also exports managanese and bauxite.[24][25]" "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormugao_ ... s_of_cargo

What makes you think double tracking of a railway (still far from Goa) is for Adani?

Because before 2014, BJP was very much against the double tracking and in fact but then after 2014 changed tunes. When UPA gave mining leases to people, it was corruption, when BJP does it , it is not corruption.

See https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 090221.cms

If this is not cronyism then I don't know what is.

https://scroll.in/article/869582/adani- ... d-no-wrong

https://scroll.in/article/874295/vedant ... ists-claim

https://scroll.in/article/878044/indias ... mal-plants

https://scroll.in/article/888576/cleara ... -the-1990s

https://www.downtoearth.org.in/blog/urb ... orms-62828

I mean I could go on and on but it will be too depressing for me and you. What nobody ever asks is why do we need to extract this minerals and export abroad ? Adani and others are exporting these. Why don't we need these minerals for ourselves ? And of course when you are extracting minerals you are poisioning the earth and making it shallower. Landslides and all have been due to these. Even in Kedarnath the huge floods that came were due to massive extraction of minerals over years in one of the most ecologically sensitive zones on earth and the youngest, the Himalayas.

Sokes wrote:

Or maybe the adventurers in these Afghan armies raped women, thereby changing the genetic makeup of the population.
"Lawlessness during wars and civil conflicts can create a culture of impunity towards human rights abuses of civilians. Among some armies, looting of civilian areas is considered a way for soldiers to supplement their often meager income, which can be unstable if soldiers are not paid on time. Some militias that cannot afford to adequately pay their troops promote pillaging as a compensation for victory, and rape of civilians can be seen as a reward for winning battles."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wartime_s ... nce#Causes

Thinking more about it I remembered that Punjab and Haryana both have a drug abuse problem.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 050295.cms
Both were affected by repeated Afghan adventurers' invasions.

This is politics plain and simple as I have shared in my answer above. I don't know how you equate rape to only Afghan thing.

See the quora answers https://www.quora.com/What-was-the-puni ... nt-India-1?

Now tell me that Afghan's came to India during the Gupta period as well ?

Sokes wrote:

Antisocial personality disorder belongs to cluster B. That means offspring has a high probability to be in cluster B. To join armies in times before antibiotics was very high risk. It attracted those without fear with the hope to be able to plunder and possibly rape. In short, people with antisocial personality disorder.

"The various studies allow estimating that between 65% and 90% of subjects treated for substance abuse or dependence have at least one concomitant PT. Studies show a higher prevalence of Cluster C for alcohol consumption and Histrionic, Narcissistic, Boundary and Antisocial Disorders (Cluster B) for illegal drugs, mainly cocaine. Cluster B is the one that the literature has most related to substance use. It is also the group in which there is a greater predominance of impulsivity, which would be worth remembering its role as a vulnerability factor for addictions."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 381730562X
PT is supposed to be PD, which is Personality Disorder
Boundery is supposed to be Borderline

It would be interesting to compare the districts with highest drug abuse problems with the districts of highest violence during partition.

If what you say is to be true then Netherlands, Denmark and so many places where even today cocaine is a big issue should be the rape capitals of the world and it comes as one of the highest safe places for women.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/best-women

Well, looks like police beating has subsided, now spraying humans with bleach.
https://twitter.com/IndianExpress/statu ... 3799502853

These videos are in Hindi, police officer explaining the bleach is harmful to humans, and he is conducting an investigation.
https://twitter.com/alok_pandey/status/ ... 5047113728
https://twitter.com/alok_pandey/status/ ... 5047113728
https://twitter.com/alok_pandey/status/ ... 3312805889

pune wrote:

I don't know how you equate rape to only Afghan thing.

I don't know how you conclude that I do. Of course rape happens everywhere. Do you know the movie "Platoon"? It shoes what I mean.

pune wrote:

If what you say is to be true then Netherlands, Denmark and so many places where even today cocaine is a big issue should be the rape capitals of the world and it comes as one of the highest safe places for women.

I can't give you the exact quote, but forensic psychiatrist Krafft-Ebing in 1886 wrote in "Psychopathia sexualis" that masochism in women is so widespread that one has to assume it's a natural condition. I don't believe this. Apparently environment matters a lot here. How else to explain that women can be sold into marriage?
Nevertheless I think sadists in liberal societies can find women who look for violent, abusive relationships.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uelHwf8o7_U

Rape, on the other side, will put such people into trouble.

Sokes wrote:

@pune
I read stories of upper caste men in Haryana group rapping a lower caste woman of a family that didn't stick to social code. I don't know about Haryana, but it doesn't seem to be a good place to live in. Repeated Afghan invasion reached till Delhi. Maybe the repeated violence spoilt the culture. Or maybe the adventurers in these Afghan armies raped women, thereby changing the genetic makeup of the population. I believe not aborting a pregnancy caused by rape is a crime against humanity for all future generations.

Today my neighbor got a visit from her father. I said to my wife that we should grumble.
Suppose on the day before the ban I infected myself with corona. At least after 12 days I will be symptomatic. That's when I become most contagious. All members of my household get immunity or show symptoms within another 12 days. I don't know how many more days one is contagious, but I guess within 10 days people should be fine or in hospital. That leads to one month lockdown.

If my neighbor's father comes to visit after one week and goes back to his household we are back at day 0. I said we should say something. My wife opposed. We would spoil the relationship. If one can't discuss a rather small conflict with a neighbor, no wonder psychopaths can just buy slaves with neighbors keeping quiet.
But aren't arranged marriages without the child's consent, so common a few decades back, very similar?


Goa has a deep natural harbor.
"MPT briefly became the leading iron ore exporting port in India, with about 54.50 million metric tonnes (MMT) of iron ore traffic in 2010–11 (about 90% of this was exported to China).[22] Subsequently, the port's cargo volume dropped to 39 MMT in 2011-12, with iron ore accounting for 29.21 MMT, due to a global reduction in demand for iron ore.[2]
Berth numbers 10 and 11 of MPT are dedicated to coal handling.[23] MPT also exports managanese and bauxite.[24][25]" "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormugao_ ... s_of_cargo

What makes you think double tracking of a railway (still far from Goa) is for Adani?

Having a hard time deciphering what you’re trying to say here.

Are you saying that Haryanvis and Punjabi’s are genetically pre-disposed to being drug addicts and rapists because Afghans invaded India. Should be noted that invasions/migration to/from Afghanistan goes back millenia - the Kushan empire etc. What type of causality are you trying to draw?

It’s a very weird hypothesis about genetics. Been reading too much literature from the 30s/40s perhaps?

ElPistolero wrote:

Are you saying that Haryanvis and Punjabi’s are genetically pre-disposed to being drug addicts and rapists because Afghans invaded India. Should be noted that invasions/migration to/from Afghanistan goes back millenia - the Kushan empire etc. What type of causality are you trying to draw?
It’s a very weird hypothesis about genetics. Been reading too much literature from the 30s/40s perhaps?

Do you assume that people in the 1930s were unable to think?
My earlier post is only a hypothesis. But the enlightened mind does not limit itself by political correctness. "Dare to think for yourself", as Immanuel Kant explained what is enlightenment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapere_aude

Social phenomenon are multicausal. I just propose one contributing factor.
How many people from Haryana are drug addicts? It doesn't take a majority to make drug abuse a problem.
And it doesn't take a lot of psychopaths to do a lot of harm. Suppose in most societies around 2% of people suffer from antisocial personality disorder. I believe repeated Afghan invasions (not Muslim rule, I only speak of people who came to plunder and rape) rises this number to maybe three percent.
I am confident that just like most soldiers in the movie "Platoon", the majority of high cast men in Haryana are uninterested to gang rape low caste women "who need to be taught a lesson".
It doesn't take many wolves to ruin a herd of sheep.
What's your explanation for the gang rape phenomenon?

Do you disagree because I'm political incorrect or because you have some contradicting evidence? Not all armies allow rape. If you have some credible source that excludes rape from these invading armies I am happy to change my opinion.
Do you believe repeated invasions by adventurers have no influence on the genetics of a population?

"Mahmud of Ghazni (Persian: محمود غزنوی‎; 2 November 971 – 30 April 1030)...During his rule, he invaded and plundered parts of the Indian subcontinent (east of the Indus River) seventeen times."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmud_of_Ghazni
That would rather explain why Pakistan has domestic trouble all the time. But then in 1000 years the genetics may have wandered West.

"Sadistic personality disorder is a personality disorder involving sadism which appeared in an appendix of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-III-R).[1] The later versions of the DSM (DSM-IV, DSM-IV-TR and DSM-5) do not include it. ...
One personality disorder that is often found to occur alongside sadistic personality disorder is conduct disorder, not an adult disorder but one of childhood and adolescence.[6] Studies have found other types of illnesses, such as alcoholism, to have a high rate of comorbidity with sadistic personality disorder.
Researchers have had some level of difficulty distinguishing sadistic personality disorder from other forms of personality disorders due to its high level of comorbidity with other disorders.[6]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadistic_ ... y_disorder


I did not read literature from the 30s. But I'm interested. Any books you can recommend?
I hope you didn't mock those books without having read them.

Why is my hypothesis weird?

Sokes wrote:

ElPistolero wrote:

Are you saying that Haryanvis and Punjabi’s are genetically pre-disposed to being drug addicts and rapists because Afghans invaded India. Should be noted that invasions/migration to/from Afghanistan goes back millenia - the Kushan empire etc. What type of causality are you trying to draw?
It’s a very weird hypothesis about genetics. Been reading too much literature from the 30s/40s perhaps?

Do you assume that people in the 1930s were unable to think?
My earlier post is only a hypothesis. But the enlightened mind does not limit itself by political correctness. "Dare to think for yourself", as Immanuel Kant explained what is enlightenment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapere_aude

Social phenomenon are multicausal. I just propose one contributing factor.
How many people from Haryana are drug addicts? It doesn't take a majority to make drug abuse a problem.
And it doesn't take a lot of psychopaths to do a lot of harm. Suppose in most societies around 2% of people suffer from antisocial personality disorder. I believe repeated Afghan invasions (not Muslim rule, I only speak of people who came to plunder and rape) rises this number to maybe three percent.
I am confident that just like most soldiers in the movie "Platoon", the majority of high cast men in Haryana are uninterested to gang rape low caste women "who need to be taught a lesson".
It doesn't take many wolves to ruin a herd of sheep.
What's your explanation for the gang rape phenomenon?

Do you disagree because I'm political incorrect or because you have some contradicting evidence? Not all armies allow rape. If you have some credible source that excludes rape from these invading armies I am happy to change my opinion.
Do you believe repeated invasions by adventurers have no influence on the genetics of a population?

"Mahmud of Ghazni (Persian: محمود غزنوی‎; 2 November 971 – 30 April 1030)...During his rule, he invaded and plundered parts of the Indian subcontinent (east of the Indus River) seventeen times."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmud_of_Ghazni
That would rather explain why Pakistan has domestic trouble all the time. But then in 1000 years the genetics may have wandered West.

"Sadistic personality disorder is a personality disorder involving sadism which appeared in an appendix of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-III-R).[1] The later versions of the DSM (DSM-IV, DSM-IV-TR and DSM-5) do not include it. ...
One personality disorder that is often found to occur alongside sadistic personality disorder is conduct disorder, not an adult disorder but one of childhood and adolescence.[6] Studies have found other types of illnesses, such as alcoholism, to have a high rate of comorbidity with sadistic personality disorder.
Researchers have had some level of difficulty distinguishing sadistic personality disorder from other forms of personality disorders due to its high level of comorbidity with other disorders.[6]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadistic_ ... y_disorder


I did not read literature from the 30s. But I'm interested. Any books you can recommend?
I hope you didn't mock those books without having read them.

Why is my hypothesis weird?

Because its tailored your your narrative, which claims that millions of men from a specific region, currently dispersed across the planet, are genetically predisposed to bring drug addicts and rapists because of events over a millennia ago. Do you have any empirical data to prove that?

Does it also apply to all the peoples of all the regions that were raided and pillaged by the Mongols (ie -pretty much everyone between Korea and Hungary/Poland? Are they all more genetically pre-disposed to being drug addicts and rapists?

As an aside, what historic experience and subsequent genetic manipulation turned Germans into active and tacit implementers of mass genocide? By your logic, the treatment of the Jewish people, Romano people, LGBT, Slavic people etc were symptoms of some serious genetic coding issues. Did they get it from the Afghans too? And is there any way to ... errr... fix those genetic issues?

It’s the whole nature vs nurture debate.

ElPistolero wrote:

Sokes wrote:

...
Why is my hypothesis weird?

Because its tailored your your narrative, which claims that millions of men from a specific region, currently dispersed across the planet, are genetically predisposed to bring drug addicts and rapists because of events over a millennia ago. Do you have any empirical data to prove that?

Does it also apply to all the peoples of all the regions that were raided and pillaged by the Mongols (ie -pretty much everyone between Korea and Hungary/Poland? Are they all more genetically pre-disposed to being drug addicts and rapists?

As an aside, what historic experience and subsequent genetic manipulation turned Germans into active and tacit implementers of mass genocide? By your logic, the treatment of the Jewish people, Romano people, LGBT, Slavic people etc were symptoms of some serious genetic coding issues. Did they get it from the Afghans too? And is there any way to ... errr... fix those genetic issues?

It’s the whole nature vs nurture debate.

You answered only one of my questions. I shall answer your questions. Then I hope you answer mine.

ElPistolero wrote:

Because its tailored your your narrative, which claims that millions of men from a specific region, currently dispersed across the planet, are genetically predisposed to bring drug addicts and rapists because of events over a millennia ago. Do you have any empirical data to prove that?

I don't have empirical data. I try to form a hypothesis that explains empirical data.
The millennia ago is a good objection. These are 40 generations. If only one of these generations had to stop their children with conduct disorder to have offspring, my argument becomes nonsense.

ElPistolero wrote:

Does it also apply to all the peoples of all the regions that were raided and pillaged by the Mongols (ie -pretty much everyone between Korea and Hungary/Poland? Are they all more genetically pre-disposed to being drug addicts and rapists?

Every society has people with cluster B personalities. Every pregnancy caused by warfare rape increases the prevalence. But you are right. There must be factors which decrease their prevalence again. Otherwise after plenty of warfare there should be only Cluster B personalities left. Add the 40 generations and my argument becomes weak.

ElPistolero wrote:

As an aside, what historic experience and subsequent genetic manipulation turned Germans into active and tacit implementers of mass genocide? By your logic, the treatment of the Jewish people, Romano people, LGBT, Slavic people etc were symptoms of some serious genetic coding issues. Did they get it from the Afghans too? And is there any way to ... errr... fix those genetic issues?

As a German I try to understand what happened, but can't. The German Jew Klaus Mann wrote "Mephisto" while in exile. It gives a sociological view on supporters and critics of the Nazis. It's the best book I know about the time. Then I read books from Sebastian Haffner. All these books can't explain the cruelties.
Maybe there is no sociological explanation. Germans were told that Jews will be shipped to Madagascar. And Germans were not the only ones who were happy to denounce their Jewish neighbors to authorities. The logistic difficult part was to get Jews into ghettos. Those always had railway access. The killing afterwards didn't need much effort.

"Kampf gegen die Hochfinanz" (fight against high finance) is a book from Gotfried Feder. He was the economic expert of DAP, later NSDAP. The book is a collection of speeches and newspaper articles he wrote. The arguments repeat all the time. But there is a very interesting speech he gave in the Reichstag.
He complains about a parliamentarian from one of the established parties who said that rather should the last job be lost than the gold standard be dismissed.
Feder and his party were the only ones who already before the Great Recession demanded to dismiss the gold standard and print money to finance infrastructure. Feder also demanded credit for people who need to build a house at 0% interest.
I am a Roosevelt fan. But Feder demanded many of these policies much earlier. Maybe Keynes was still earlier. But Keynes was not a politician.
Hitler the traitor had a private deal with the ruling classes. Hitler got rid of the socialist part of the program in the night of the long knives. Feder was just an academic, not somebody from a fighting group. He was dismissed, but allowed to live.

I never learned about Feder in school. When in a Greek election around 2008 (or 2011?) some tiny party suddenly rose to power I said to myself that this happened before. NSDAP vote percentage elections: 1928: 2,6%, 1930: 18,3%, 1932: 37,4%
source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag ... 9_bis_1933
I decided to learn about the economic program of the NSDAP.
You may consider voting for Hitler in the Great Recession to be a rational choice for a German with existential worries. I believe the usual explanations like Treaty of Versaille are bullshit.

In all my life I have only once met a German who admitted to have supported Hitler. It was in a beer tent sometime around 1992. "Young and stupid we were at the time." I think of Paul's "I only want to boast of my weaknesses." when I think of him. Saul witnessed approvingly of the stoning of Stephen.
The repentant old man was one of the few elderly German men which looked happy to me.

What I find more worrying is German behavior in Russia and Poland. There also unspeakable crimes were committed and far more common people were involved. Good people don't kill bad people. And humans commit unspeakable crimes when ordered by authority. But I believe there were no gang rapes of Jewish women in villages under democratic government. Did Germans sell their sisters/ daughters to a highest bidder? I have not heard about it.

ElPistolero wrote:

It’s the whole nature vs nurture debate.

So what are the environmental factors that make girls be sold by their own families and which causes gang rapes?

You are an interesting person to discuss with. You did show me a weakness in my argument. I'm looking forward to more discussions with you.

Sokes wrote:

Good people don't kill bad people.

Good people don't kill people period. Look at Gandhiji, Dr. Martin Luther King Junior, Baba Amte (in Indian context) . I don't really understand this somewhat obsession of trying to find a rational explanation of the horrors that are prevalent and have been in society. Gender violence and sex trafficking has always been there and most of the time is done by somebody close to them, somebody whom the women trust, usually a father-figure. In your earlier works you just shamed the victims themselves quoting a psychologist that women are masochists by nature. If I were to search I'm sure to found few psychologists who would say the opposite. Then there is role-play BDSM where the role of sadist and masochists don't fall on gender lines. Also you might find this interesting

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... d-pleasure

If you are looking for animalistic behavior, the most simplest of all is 'flight or fight' . Now while a rational human being is supposed to take a decision based on variety of factors but more often than not, the past experiences put an imprint and s/he are more pre-disposed to one behavior than the other depending on what choices he made the last time. If I am a person who usually fights then it's possible that I may fight even though the rational evidence may be contrary or the other way around. That is the reason we see 'upsets' in sports, elections etc.

Also, while there may be some psychological study or data to prove or disprove I do believe in the concept that both the good and bad lives within each one of us and whom we decide to feed more makes our choices. The asian yin-yang is also similar in nature and carries similar meaning.

If one wants to find rationale, you can find rationale for everything in the world. In fact, we don't need to go anywhere. Right now people both in United States and UK think it's ok for millions of people to die so the economy survive. And while these people claim to be putting their life ahead, they are actually goading other people to be scapegoats. I haven't heard a more absurd argument in my life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElIf2DBrWzU

Delhi: 2,000 people attended Nizamuddin congregation

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofi ... 898919.cms

Yikes! Some just fail to understand the severity of a global pandemic. For some their almighty still prevails over everything else, even over basic common sense.

However, as per some on here, we must just see them as our citizens. We must kindly ignore their stubbornness and stupidity. And let them put a strain on our doctors and health care facilities and other resources. Everyone else should put their life at risk because of the blunders and misadventures of some. Waah!
Yet another, will now blame the PM saying he loves to watch the poor suffer.

ElPistolero wrote:

“Their god”. “Their almighty”. That’s what this is really about, isn’t it?
To some of us, they’re just Indian citizens stranded in another country in a time of need (global pandemic). To some of us, “their god” is irrelevant to how they, as Indian citizens, should be treated.

Yeah right, it must be something completely else we can't understand.

ElPistolero wrote:

I’m the only “another user” who referred to a court case. My lying eyes.

Are you sure? -:

dtw2hyd wrote:

avier wrote:

..... other user who makes it seem like no evacuations or efforts thereof have been made at all by Indian govt. , for evacuations from Iran. Most of the earlier evacuations, if you check the links I gave, comprised of Indian students in Iran.

Well, are there any other instances of evacuation where courts have to get involved.

avier wrote:

Delhi: 2,000 people attended Nizamuddin congregation

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofi ... 898919.cms

Yikes! Some just fail to understand the severity of a global pandemic. For some their almighty still prevails over everything else, even over basic common sense.

However, as per some on here, we must just see them as our citizens. We must kindly ignore their stubbornness and stupidity. And let them put a strain on our doctors and health care facilities and other resources. Everyone else should put their life at risk because of the blunders and misadventures of some. Waah!
Yet another, will now blame the PM saying he loves to watch the poor suffer.

To be noted: Congregation happened 15 days ago around 15th March, and first cases were reported only yesterday. Only god can guess what kind of chain reaction has been already triggered.

Plus how many of these 2000 people will pay Rs 4500 for their tests?

anshabhi wrote:

To be noted: Congregation happened 15 days ago around 15th March, and first cases were reported only yesterday. Only god can guess what kind of chain reaction has been already triggered.

Plus how many of these 2000 people will pay Rs 4500 for their tests?

It takes anywhere between few days to 2 weeks (or even more) for the incubation period of the virus. Hence, signs & symptoms are showing up now in most of them. Many others in the area, their families, and those who came in contact are being tested. Also, many could be asymptomatic.
Surprisingly, there are many foreign nationals too like from Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. Also, many were found staying illegally, beyond their visa terms. Seems like a bigger racket being busted beyond just the virus issue now.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehin ... 6.ece/amp/

Regarding the test rates, I believe the govt bares the expenses for these tests when they get you tested.
However, as an individual, if you want to get tested for your own well being (especially at private labs) you'd have to pay for those tests like you would for any other medical checkups.

pune wrote:

Sokes wrote:

Good people don't kill bad people.

...In your earlier works you just shamed the victims themselves quoting a psychologist that women are masochists by nature. If I were to search I'm sure to found few psychologists who would say the opposite. Then there is role-play BDSM where the role of sadist and masochists don't fall on gender lines. Also you might find this interesting
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... d-pleasure

I wrote already that I myself don't believe it. But why do the sold women not go to the police? I thought of Krafft-Ebing.
But as I don't believe it myself, why not agree with you? I should have not written it. Do you have an explanation?
Now that you found the weak spot in my argument, why don't you answer the other questions. I don't avoid your questions even if it means I'm wrong.

Speaking about the psychologytoday article:
"Rape victims replay their trauma" reminds me of Borderline is caused by rape. Everything has to be caused by environment. I don't believe it. In Germany at the end of the war quite a lot of women were raped by some of the Russian soldiers. I never heard/ read that these women developed masochist fantasies, BDSM habits or Borderline.

The case of women who find themselves in abusive relationships again and again is different. But that's not rape. And such women are a small minority.
I admire Rhianna to speak so openly about it in her video "Love the way you lie". Not the usual stereotypes about domestic violence.

BDSM is just a sexual play in an otherwise normal relationship?
IIRC in the brain the areas for pleasure and pain are very close. IIRC what feels like pain for most people can feel like pleasure to some during sexual excitement. They are feeling pleasure, not pain. I guess some wiring anomaly.
"escape the burden of selfhood" sounds Borderline to me. One should look for comorbid conditions. Mental disorders rarely come in isolation. If BDSM people don't have comorbid conditions, I can believe that it's a blessing. Otherwise I doubt it. But I'm not qualified to judge and I don't see contradicting evidence either.

" For the majority, it appears as though BDSM serves as a personalized sexual pastime as opposed to a manifestation of psychopathology, and their life problems are likely to be as common as the average single man who has sex 1.7 times per month in a missionary position, is rather quiet and awkward, and lasts for 178 seconds before gasping for air."
Well, you judge for yourself how serious to take that.

pune wrote:

Also, while there may be some psychological study or data to prove or disprove I do believe in the concept that both the good and bad lives within each one of us and whom we decide to feed more makes our choices. The asian yin-yang is also similar in nature and carries similar meaning.

I disagree. Some people like evil. More dangerous as more common are the many without empathy. Without empathy the only rational choice is the choice to my advantage. Was Hitler's hatred of Jews caused by his paranoia or by a choice of his?
Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocia ... y_disorder

pune wrote:

If one wants to find rationale, you can find rationale for everything in the world. ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElIf2DBrWzU

I don't understand what you mean with "finding rationale"? Should we just stop thinking?
"market worship threatens to become a fucking death cult."
That video is really good. Thanks for posting.

I spend too much time on this discussion. You have the last word.

Sokes wrote:

ElPistolero wrote:

Sokes wrote:

...
Why is my hypothesis weird?

Because its tailored your your narrative, which claims that millions of men from a specific region, currently dispersed across the planet, are genetically predisposed to bring drug addicts and rapists because of events over a millennia ago. Do you have any empirical data to prove that?

Does it also apply to all the peoples of all the regions that were raided and pillaged by the Mongols (ie -pretty much everyone between Korea and Hungary/Poland? Are they all more genetically pre-disposed to being drug addicts and rapists?

As an aside, what historic experience and subsequent genetic manipulation turned Germans into active and tacit implementers of mass genocide? By your logic, the treatment of the Jewish people, Romano people, LGBT, Slavic people etc were symptoms of some serious genetic coding issues. Did they get it from the Afghans too? And is there any way to ... errr... fix those genetic issues?

It’s the whole nature vs nurture debate.

You answered only one of my questions. I shall answer your questions. Then I hope you answer mine.

ElPistolero wrote:

Because its tailored your your narrative, which claims that millions of men from a specific region, currently dispersed across the planet, are genetically predisposed to bring drug addicts and rapists because of events over a millennia ago. Do you have any empirical data to prove that?

I don't have empirical data. I try to form a hypothesis that explains empirical data.
The millennia ago is a good objection. These are 40 generations. If only one of these generations had to stop their children with conduct disorder to have offspring, my argument becomes nonsense.

ElPistolero wrote:

Does it also apply to all the peoples of all the regions that were raided and pillaged by the Mongols (ie -pretty much everyone between Korea and Hungary/Poland? Are they all more genetically pre-disposed to being drug addicts and rapists?

Every society has people with cluster B personalities. Every pregnancy caused by warfare rape increases the prevalence. But you are right. There must be factors which decrease their prevalence again. Otherwise after plenty of warfare there should be only Cluster B personalities left. Add the 40 generations and my argument becomes weak.

ElPistolero wrote:

As an aside, what historic experience and subsequent genetic manipulation turned Germans into active and tacit implementers of mass genocide? By your logic, the treatment of the Jewish people, Romano people, LGBT, Slavic people etc were symptoms of some serious genetic coding issues. Did they get it from the Afghans too? And is there any way to ... errr... fix those genetic issues?

As a German I try to understand what happened, but can't. The German Jew Klaus Mann wrote "Mephisto" while in exile. It gives a sociological view on supporters and critics of the Nazis. It's the best book I know about the time. Then I read books from Sebastian Haffner. All these books can't explain the cruelties.
Maybe there is no sociological explanation. Germans were told that Jews will be shipped to Madagascar. And Germans were not the only ones who were happy to denounce their Jewish neighbors to authorities. The logistic difficult part was to get Jews into ghettos. Those always had railway access. The killing afterwards didn't need much effort.

"Kampf gegen die Hochfinanz" (fight against high finance) is a book from Gotfried Feder. He was the economic expert of DAP, later NSDAP. The book is a collection of speeches and newspaper articles he wrote. The arguments repeat all the time. But there is a very interesting speech he gave in the Reichstag.
He complains about a parliamentarian from one of the established parties who said that rather should the last job be lost than the gold standard be dismissed.
Feder and his party were the only ones who already before the Great Recession demanded to dismiss the gold standard and print money to finance infrastructure. Feder also demanded credit for people who need to build a house at 0% interest.
I am a Roosevelt fan. But Feder demanded many of these policies much earlier. Maybe Keynes was still earlier. But Keynes was not a politician.
Hitler the traitor had a private deal with the ruling classes. Hitler got rid of the socialist part of the program in the night of the long knives. Feder was just an academic, not somebody from a fighting group. He was dismissed, but allowed to live.

I never learned about Feder in school. When in a Greek election around 2008 (or 2011?) some tiny party suddenly rose to power I said to myself that this happened before. NSDAP vote percentage elections: 1928: 2,6%, 1930: 18,3%, 1932: 37,4%
source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag ... 9_bis_1933
I decided to learn about the economic program of the NSDAP.
You may consider voting for Hitler in the Great Recession to be a rational choice for a German with existential worries. I believe the usual explanations like Treaty of Versaille are bullshit.

In all my life I have only once met a German who admitted to have supported Hitler. It was in a beer tent sometime around 1992. "Young and stupid we were at the time." I think of Paul's "I only want to boast of my weaknesses." when I think of him. Saul witnessed approvingly of the stoning of Stephen.
The repentant old man was one of the few elderly German men which looked happy to me.

What I find more worrying is German behavior in Russia and Poland. There also unspeakable crimes were committed and far more common people were involved. Good people don't kill bad people. And humans commit unspeakable crimes when ordered by authority. But I believe there were no gang rapes of Jewish women in villages under democratic government. Did Germans sell their sisters/ daughters to a highest bidder? I have not heard about it.

ElPistolero wrote:

It’s the whole nature vs nurture debate.

So what are the environmental factors that make girls be sold by their own families and which causes gang rapes?

You are an interesting person to discuss with. You did show me a weakness in my argument. I'm looking forward to more discussions with you.

No, that’s okay. I’m not interested in a debate that involves explaining empirical data without actually citing the empirical data.

Much of the behaviour you describe there is explainable by nurture rather than nature. Including the Nazi phenomenon, which was a product of the circumstances of its time (as you note with the Treaty of Versailles) rather than genetic coding.

Part of those circumstances was the 30s/40s free thinking that also involved hypothesis to explain empirical data that either didn’t actually exist. Or could be explained by other factors. The Nazis were prime (but by no means the only) proponents of this. They used it to dehumanize the Jewish people, Slavic people, Romani people. It was all about genetic coding for them. Then they got the keys to power and demonstrated the fallacies in their “thinking”. Or revealed a serious genetic coding issue that presumably still exists.

I know far too many Germans to believe the latter, but you’re free to come up with flawed hypothesis to demonstrate your free thinking spirit. Just don’t be surprised if people point out echoes from the past.

avier wrote:

anshabhi wrote:

To be noted: Congregation happened 15 days ago around 15th March, and first cases were reported only yesterday. Only god can guess what kind of chain reaction has been already triggered.

Plus how many of these 2000 people will pay Rs 4500 for their tests?

It takes anywhere between few days to 2 weeks (or even more) for the incubation period of the virus. Hence, signs & symptoms are showing up now in most of them. Many others in the area, their families, and those who came in contact are being tested. Also, many could be asymptomatic.
Surprisingly, there are many foreign nationals too like from Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. Also, many were found staying illegally, beyond their visa terms. Seems like a bigger racket being busted beyond just the virus issue now.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehin ... 6.ece/amp/

Regarding the test rates, I believe the govt bares the expenses for these tests when they get you tested.
However, as an individual, if you want to get tested for your own well being (especially at private labs) you'd have to pay for those tests like you would for any other medical checkups.

I am not going to comment on the pandemic as that has already been talked to death. We all know that Mr. Modi should have taken the steps earlier. And it's not just him, but Boris Johnson and Donald Trump as well. The latter two still holding out for economy which is a gamble which will back-fire and they don't care about the costs.

As far as the visa issue is concerned, we have just as many indian illegals living in UK and Europe, in fact when UK officially asked India to take them back, India refused.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... ears-mass/ - I believe I may shared this before, if not now you have it.

https://www.breitbart.com/economy/2019/ ... ed-states/ - U.S.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-and ... love-again

Both the links above are from RW media outlets. Breitbart was part of the Trump administration until he had to leave due to corruption allegations. But then in trump land that is always happening.

https://www.politico.com/interactives/2 ... epartures/ - This is a neutral party something similar to what we have in Association of Democratic Reforms (ADR) but much more powerful and having much more resources than we have in India for an institution like this.

pune wrote:

As far as the visa issue is concerned, we have just as many indian illegals living in UK and Europe, in fact when UK officially asked India to take them back, India refused.

I'm sorry, but what is your point? That two wrongs make a right?

ElPistolero wrote:

No, that’s okay. I’m not interested in a debate that involves explaining empirical data without actually citing the empirical data.

Much of the behaviour you describe there is explainable by nurture rather than nature. Including the Nazi phenomenon, which was a product of the circumstances of its time (as you note with the Treaty of Versailles) rather than genetic coding.

Part of those circumstances was the 30s/40s free thinking that also involved hypothesis to explain empirical data that either didn’t actually exist. Or could be explained by other factors. The Nazis were prime (but by no means the only) proponents of this.
... you’re free to come up with flawed hypothesis to demonstrate your free thinking spirit. Just don’t be surprised if people point out echoes from the past.

You didn't answer any of my questions. Instead you bring a Nazi comparison (Godwin's law). I expected better.
Unlike a theory a hypothesis is not a strong construct. It's an idea that can easily be challenged. Most hypotheses are wrong. But then to get access to new ideas one has to work with them. It's o.k. to have a faulty hypothesis as long as there is an openness to reject or adapt it.

Versailles was before 1928. It can't explain the huge increase in votes for Nazis during the Great Recession.
You want to stick to whatever you learned in school even if it contradicts empirical data. Anyway I can't win this discussion as you represent majority opinion. The demand for proof of a majority opinion is always very small compared to demand for proof of an outsider opinion. Apparently the majority opinion also has no need to answer questions. Does the majority opinion need to cite empirical data?

You have the last word.

avier wrote:

pune wrote:

As far as the visa issue is concerned, we have just as many indian illegals living in UK and Europe, in fact when UK officially asked India to take them back, India refused.

I'm sorry, but what is your point? That two wrongs make a right?

My simple point is you keep pointing to other's wrongs but not admitting to any of the party in power. Why should the party in power get a free pass, just because they are in power ?

Sokes wrote:

ElPistolero wrote:

No, that’s okay. I’m not interested in a debate that involves explaining empirical data without actually citing the empirical data.

Much of the behaviour you describe there is explainable by nurture rather than nature. Including the Nazi phenomenon, which was a product of the circumstances of its time (as you note with the Treaty of Versailles) rather than genetic coding.

Part of those circumstances was the 30s/40s free thinking that also involved hypothesis to explain empirical data that either didn’t actually exist. Or could be explained by other factors. The Nazis were prime (but by no means the only) proponents of this.
... you’re free to come up with flawed hypothesis to demonstrate your free thinking spirit. Just don’t be surprised if people point out echoes from the past.

You didn't answer any of my questions. Instead you bring a Nazi comparison (Godwin's law). I expected better.
Unlike a theory a hypothesis is not a strong construct. It's an idea that can easily be challenged. Most hypotheses are wrong. But then to get access to new ideas one has to work with them. It's o.k. to have a faulty hypothesis as long as there is an openness to reject or adapt it.

Versailles was before 1928. It can't explain the huge increase in votes for Nazis during the Great Recession.
You want to stick to whatever you learned in school even if it contradicts empirical data. Anyway I can't win this discussion as you represent majority opinion. The demand for proof of a majority opinion is always very small compared to demand for proof of an outsider opinion. Apparently the majority opinion also has no need to answer questions. Does the majority opinion need to cite empirical data?

You have the last word.

Even the Nazi thinking comes from Charles Darwin sadly which I found late in my thirtees when I was finally able to read the actual book that he wrote.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/arti ... es-darwin/

https://www.livescience.com/58675-artif ... guage.html

avier wrote:

pune wrote:

As far as the visa issue is concerned, we have just as many indian illegals living in UK and Europe, in fact when UK officially asked India to take them back, India refused.

I'm sorry, but what is your point? That two wrongs make a right?

If GOI indeed wants to throw out illegals from India, I would suggest start at the vey top, in Himachal and Garwhal you will find hundreds and perhaps thousands of Europeans who have stayed outside of their visa limits, some as more as 20 years + and a few of them are into the whole marijuana and other drug-related trades. But this India will never do, because this will be taking on the EU (European Union) , hell when even couple of Italian marine soldiers killed our innocent fisherman we gave the soldiers pardon and diplomatic immunity. Why, nobody knows.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrica_Lexie_case

At the time the case was dropped by GOI, the ruling party i.e. BJP had said we would use the entire affair as a bargaining tool to further our trade but since that nothing of that sort has been claimed in any trade deal with Italy. I have never been able to find any exclusive India-Italy trade agreements although we do have one with EU (European Union) https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/count ... ies/india/ . While making any deals with EU, India has to contend with wishes of 27 countries, not just single one, the most influential perhaps being Germany, but in many cases that is also not given.

If you read the wikipedia page you would see how Italy defended its two sergerants even going to the lengths ot getting International Arbitration and using all kinds of methods. Of course GOI has buried the case now.

And btw, the Europeans living in Himachal and Garwhal is not new news, when last I had visited which is few years back, in both the states, BJP had been in power for 2 terms. When I could find the above as a mere tourist, I fail to understand how GOI having all its intelligence state and central agencies would not know that. In fact, some of it also got spilled into bollywood movies as well but made no difference. In fact if you read any backpacker travel manuals, books you will find 'Parvati valley' as a place to get high. Many European as well as Israeli backpackers (israeli soldiers coming after their mandatory 2-5 years military career) come to India to get that cheap high. Again, what I'm sharing is old news, this is all known by the local populace.

Sokes wrote:

ElPistolero wrote:

No, that’s okay. I’m not interested in a debate that involves explaining empirical data without actually citing the empirical data.

Much of the behaviour you describe there is explainable by nurture rather than nature. Including the Nazi phenomenon, which was a product of the circumstances of its time (as you note with the Treaty of Versailles) rather than genetic coding.

Part of those circumstances was the 30s/40s free thinking that also involved hypothesis to explain empirical data that either didn’t actually exist. Or could be explained by other factors. The Nazis were prime (but by no means the only) proponents of this.
... you’re free to come up with flawed hypothesis to demonstrate your free thinking spirit. Just don’t be surprised if people point out echoes from the past.

You didn't answer any of my questions. Instead you bring a Nazi comparison (Godwin's law). I expected better.
Unlike a theory a hypothesis is not a strong construct. It's an idea that can easily be challenged. Most hypotheses are wrong. But then to get access to new ideas one has to work with them. It's o.k. to have a faulty hypothesis as long as there is an openness to reject or adapt it.

Versailles was before 1928. It can't explain the huge increase in votes for Nazis during the Great Recession.
You want to stick to whatever you learned in school even if it contradicts empirical data. Anyway I can't win this discussion as you represent majority opinion. The demand for proof of a majority opinion is always very small compared to demand for proof of an outsider opinion. Apparently the majority opinion also has no need to answer questions. Does the majority opinion need to cite empirical data?

You have the last word.

It’s hard not to invoke Godwin’s law when the person you’re discussing an issue with keeps drawing on half-baked versions of Nazi tropes.

This genetic coding nonsense, with its belief that some geographic groups are genetically coded to have relatively more negative traits, is the kind of nonsense that leads to claims about group superiority and supremacy - “master race” and inferior races etc.

You haven’t provided any empirical data of any sort. Just some vague notion of 2% increasing to 3%. Nothing to explain it. That leads to half-baked hypotheses claiming entire groups of people are more likely to be drug addicts or rapists.

I didn’t learn much at school, other than that, no matter how hard one tries, 1 + 1 = 2.

If one wants to learn the truth about India, follow the cartoonists. I can post the links but don't want to ruin their lives.

Standup comedians are mostly silenced by putting them on no-fly lists and harassing.

avier wrote:

Delhi: 2,000 people attended Nizamuddin congregation

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofi ... 898919.cms

Yikes! Some just fail to understand the severity of a global pandemic. For some their almighty still prevails over everything else, even over basic common sense.

However, as per some on here, we must just see them as our citizens. We must kindly ignore their stubbornness and stupidity. And let them put a strain on our doctors and health care facilities and other resources. Everyone else should put their life at risk because of the blunders and misadventures of some. Waah!
Yet another, will now blame the PM saying he loves to watch the poor suffer.

“Our citizens”? Lol.

Guess you’re going to find a lot of not “our citizens” in India. Like these guys:

“Indian authorities in the northern state of Punjab have quarantined around 40,000 residents from 20 villages following a Covid-19 outbreak linked to just one man.

The 70-year-old died of coronavirus - a fact found out only after his death.

The man, a preacher, had ignored advice to self quarantine after returning from a trip to Italy and Germany, officials told BBC Punjabi's Arvind Chhabra.
India has 640 confirmed cases of the virus, of which 30 are in Punjab.

The man, identified as Baldev Singh, had visited a large gathering to celebrate the Sikh festival of Hola Mohalla shortly before he died.

The six-day festival attracts around 10,000 people every day.”

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-52061915

Plenty of stubbornness and stupidity to go around in India. Also just general incompetence, even by medical professionals. Like this (from the same link above):

“In Bhilwara, a textile city in the northern state of Rajasthan, there are fears that a group of doctors who were infected by a patient could have spread the disease to hundreds of people.

Seven thousand people in villages neighbouring the city are under home quarantine.”

Guess those doctors aren’t “our citizens” either.

anshabhi wrote:

To be noted: Congregation happened 15 days ago around 15th March, and first cases were reported only yesterday. Only god can guess what kind of chain reaction has been already triggered.

Plus how many of these 2000 people will pay Rs 4500 for their tests?

Probably as many as the 60,000 who will play Rs 4,500 for their tests after attending that six day Sikh event around the same time as this congregation (mid-March).

Which begs the question: does it matter?

ElPistolero wrote:

avier wrote:

Delhi: 2,000 people attended Nizamuddin congregation

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofi ... 898919.cms

Yikes! Some just fail to understand the severity of a global pandemic. For some their almighty still prevails over everything else, even over basic common sense.

However, as per some on here, we must just see them as our citizens. We must kindly ignore their stubbornness and stupidity. And let them put a strain on our doctors and health care facilities and other resources. Everyone else should put their life at risk because of the blunders and misadventures of some. Waah!
Yet another, will now blame the PM saying he loves to watch the poor suffer.

“Our citizens”? Lol.

Guess you’re going to find a lot of not “our citizens” in India. Like these guys:

“Indian authorities in the northern state of Punjab have quarantined around 40,000 residents from 20 villages following a Covid-19 outbreak linked to just one man.

The 70-year-old died of coronavirus - a fact found out only after his death.

The man, a preacher, had ignored advice to self quarantine after returning from a trip to Italy and Germany, officials told BBC Punjabi's Arvind Chhabra.
India has 640 confirmed cases of the virus, of which 30 are in Punjab.

The man, identified as Baldev Singh, had visited a large gathering to celebrate the Sikh festival of Hola Mohalla shortly before he died.

The six-day festival attracts around 10,000 people every day.”

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-52061915

Plenty of stubbornness and stupidity to go around in India. Also just general incompetence, even by medical professionals. Like this (from the same link above):

“In Bhilwara, a textile city in the northern state of Rajasthan, there are fears that a group of doctors who were infected by a patient could have spread the disease to hundreds of people.

Seven thousand people in villages neighbouring the city are under home quarantine.”

Guess those doctors aren’t “our citizens” either.

just to add to this, today about 300-400 migrants just from 100 meters attempted to board a truck. They had paid the trucker whatever meagre savings they had so they could reach their village. After everybody had come in, the cops came and took them them away. Now were the cops and the truck-driver involved with each other, hard to know. I know that in my own city there aren't any rain baseras like they have in Delhi . How would these people be looked after, have no idea. And in such scenarios, police can exploit the people anyway they want. They will not be in a position to complain or raise a voice.