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wardialer
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Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:55 am

So, lets think about this. NK and Iran has been threatening the globe with their nuclear program for decades and luckily, that has subsided and nothing came out of it. In other words, nothing happened. Still to this day, the US has sanctions on these countries and making sure they do not reactivate their nuclear program.

Look at now, the COVD-19 has perhaps done or continue to do far more damage than a nuclear weapon.

My question is this:

Should we crack down on these wet shops like we do with countries who develop nuclear programs like NK and Iran?
Should we impose these same restrictions on wet shops?

Because the fallout of this COVD-19 is probably more or equally damaging than a fallout from a nuclear weapon.

Now, some parts of China like the wet shop in Wuhan are supposeldy now shut down. But what about other countries like Vietnam, Thailand, and Laos? They have wet shops as well and can pose global threat as well with viruses generated from certain animals.

I think the US SHOULD impose sanctions or strict restrictions on countries who slaughter animals in wet shops, just like we do with countries who have a nuclear program.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:00 am

Yes. And any other country that does business with them.
 
wardialer
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:08 am

Great! Thank you. Nice response.

And also I noticed something about the China PM. He has not made any apologizing speech to the world and that itself is a major concern.
Or, even offering help for those in need. Shame on him and his country.

All "wet shops" should be shut down and the US should impose sanctions on those who refuse not to.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:17 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Yes. And any other country that does business with them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnMmP25BDPI

how do you sanction yourself?

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
anrec80
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:59 am

wardialer wrote:

Should we crack down on these wet shops like we do with countries who develop nuclear programs like NK and Iran?
Should we impose these same restrictions on wet shops?


Sanction and crack down - no. Educate and work with their authorities - yes. After all, these wet markets employ hundreds of thousands and millions who do not know how to do anything else. Those nations leadership needs to educate their people on sanitation, refrigeration technology, food safety. Developed countries need to work with them on this important matter without any crackdowns or sanctions - then it will work. After all, all the sanctions and crackdowns failed to stop Iran and NK's nuclear program, and will fail to put an end to these wet markets.
 
Sporteganmen
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:43 am

I also support. All “wet shops” should be closed, and the United States should impose sanctions on those who refuse to do this.
 
JJJ
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:44 am

wardialer wrote:

All "wet shops" should be shut down and the US should impose sanctions on those who refuse not to.


A wet market is just a farmers market by another name that sounds foreign.

Any market with stalls selling fruit, meat, eggs, chickens etc. is a wet market, and there are plenty of those all over the world (including the US).
 
anshabhi
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:52 am

wardialer wrote:
Great! Thank you. Nice response.

And also I noticed something about the China PM. He has not made any apologizing speech to the world and that itself is a major concern.
Or, even offering help for those in need. Shame on him and his country.

All "wet shops" should be shut down and the US should impose sanctions on those who refuse not to.

He never accepted coronavirus originated in China
 
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Aesma
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:43 am

Should the world still care about US sanctions ?

France freed an Iranian the other day, that the US wanted for violating US sanctions.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:51 am

Aesma wrote:
Should the world still care about US sanctions ?

France freed an Iranian the other day, that the US wanted for violating US sanctions.


You should ask the Germans, because of US sanctions Nordstream 2 has been closed down when it was a couple of weeks from completion. This is the US melding in the domestic affairs of one if its friends.
 
anrec80
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:10 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
You should ask the Germans, because of US sanctions Nordstream 2 has been closed down when it was a couple of weeks from completion. This is the US melding in the domestic affairs of one if its friends.


The builders of Nord Stream 2 certainly did account for such risks. They’ll manage to finish it with some other vessel. But as for sanctions - yes, the world cares less and less.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:12 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Should the world still care about US sanctions ?

France freed an Iranian the other day, that the US wanted for violating US sanctions.


You should ask the Germans, because of US sanctions Nordstream 2 has been closed down when it was a couple of weeks from completion. This is the US melding in the domestic affairs of one if its friends.


Countries are free to do what they like on trade, and the US is free to choose who they will buy goods and services from, and for what reason. Indeed, this means the US can make inconvenient requirements on countries that wish to sell to them. Free trade is a good practice if it is pursued fairly and in peace. If it is used to steal or make war then The US may complain. Agreed that we behave in an exceptionalist and even hypocritical manner.
 
PPVRA
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:02 pm

”But according to Eric Toner, a senior scientist at Johns Hopkins University, more animal-to-human disease outbreaks are likely to arise, even without wet markets.“

https://www.businessinsider.com/wuhan-c ... ans-2020-1
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:36 pm

No need to sanction any country, just follow the simple principle don't put all eggs in one basket.

A toaster should not cost $60-$100 if China can make it for $10. You don't need a Manhattan HQ, just find some rural area where people are happy to be employed at a reasonable wage. Just don't ruin the environment.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:45 pm

China should work on improving sanitation. Good chance coronavirus came from them along with SARS and MERS.

But saying what I just said is somehow controversial and racist, people will strangely defend it and point to unrelated dirty stuff elsewhere

I really don't get it. Guess I'll add disclaimers that should not be necessary: I don't hate Chinese people, they aren't racially inferior, we shouldn't go to war with China if they don't clean these markets up, there are filthy conditions all around the world and sure we should clean those up too, improved sanitation is a good thing and even if coronavirus didn't come from the wet markets they should still be cleaner, etc etc. It'll be interesting to see which disclaimers I missed and if I'll still be called racist like last thread. Not sure why suggesting wet markets should improve sanitation triggers so many people
 
PPVRA
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:50 pm

“People said it was impossible to change China, but the evidence we are now getting says consumption of shark fin soup in China is down by 50 to 70 percent in the last two years,” Peter Knights, executive director of WildAid, told The Washington Post in 2013. And such a consumption decrease has continued in 2016. “It is a myth that people in Asia don’t care about wildlife. Consumption is based on ignorance rather than malice.”

Former NBA star Yao Ming has helped curb the consumption of shark fin soup in China, simply by telling the Chinese public how it's made:

https://www.csmonitor.com/layout/set/am ... k-fin-soup
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:29 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
No need to sanction any country, just follow the simple principle don't put all eggs in one basket.

A toaster should not cost $60-$100 if China can make it for $10. You don't need a Manhattan HQ, just find some rural area where people are happy to be employed at a reasonable wage. Just don't ruin the environment.


The worlds best toaster is hand made in the UK and costs about $180 for the cheapest chrome two slice classic model.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:27 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
China should work on improving sanitation. Good chance coronavirus came from them along with SARS and MERS.

SARS? Yes
MERS? No. MERS originated in the Middle East (hence the ME of MERS...Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome).

dtw2hyd wrote:
just find some rural area where people are happy to be employed at a reasonable wage.

In this case, foreign countries whose labor laws allow you to pay as little as possible. Let's say that you move production to rural Louisiana...you still have to pay minimum wage ($7.25/hr) plus payroll taxes. The place you've set up shop in needs infrastructure to support logistics. The place will require more employees, which means you hire locally or entice people to move into Nowheresville, LA (which means you'll need to offer more than just minimum wage). Depending on how close or far you are from an airport or an interstate, that adds costs, which the town and state will have to pay for, which will start increasing the cost of living in the area.

You don't need Manhattan HQ, totally agree with that (and why would anyone want to live in NYC is beyond me...), but depending on the scale of operations, you'd probably want to strike a balance between infrastructure, talent pool, incentives, and overall costs.

PPVRA wrote:
”But according to Eric Toner, a senior scientist at Johns Hopkins University, more animal-to-human disease outbreaks are likely to arise, even without wet markets.“

So? It's just a fact. But you know what? I'd rather wet markets be better controlled and have a new disease emerge every 10 years rather than every year or so. And it's not just China we need to look at. Ebola is thought to have emerged in the same fashion in Africa (thankfully, the virus is only contagious in direct contact with infected fluids). Educating people while enabling authorities to regulate these markets will ensure that the emergence of diseases is slowed. We will never be able to fully eliminate animal-to-human diseases so long as we domesticate and consume animals. H1N1 (aka swine flu) came from pig farmers. H5N1 (aka bird flu) killed a few thousands in China and led to many chickens to be slaughtered. Not much we can do except slow it down and taking action for whenever it comes out.

wardialer wrote:
He has not made any apologizing speech to the world and that itself is a major concern.
How so? WHat is an apology going to do? You apologize when you deliberately do something to harm others. The US dropping nukes in Japan, the Saudis actively supporting Al Qaeda, Germany triggering two world wars (one of which involved ethnic cleansing)...those are things you apologize for. Unless that virus was engineered in China and then released as a bioagent (and to date, no one was brought forth evidence of it, other than "everyone knows"), this is not something China needs to apologize for. China didn't send infected individuals abroad. China didn't mount it on intercontinental missiles. And it seems petty that in this day and age, a government would actively seek to infect its own population and risk the meltdown of its own economy. But given that Chinese scientist were the ones who sequenced the virus first and then shared it with the world, that doesn't sound like a country that actively engineered a virus to harm the world.

What China DOES need to do, however, is own up to it. State that it was due to lax regulations and poor education that this emerged in the first place, and set out steps to ensure this doesn't happen again.

wardialer wrote:
the US should impose sanctions on those who refuse not to.
China has proven it can weather economic wars with ease. Sanction China and just watch how quickly the US economy takes a hit. Wait for China to say it'll start selling/shifting its dollar reserves. Wait for China to kick out US manufacturers (after all, if China is sanctioned, why would Apple be building iPhones there?)...that's the issue with the current administration: they never think long term what the effects are. They want to score some points now without taking into account the aftermath.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
KFLLCFII
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:27 pm

wardialer wrote:
So, lets think about this. NK and Iran has been threatening the globe with their nuclear program for decades and luckily, that has subsided and nothing came out of it. In other words, nothing happened. Still to this day, the US has sanctions on these countries and making sure they do not reactivate their nuclear program.

Look at now, the COVD-19 has perhaps done or continue to do far more damage than a nuclear weapon.

My question is this:

Should we crack down on these wet shops like we do with countries who develop nuclear programs like NK and Iran?
Should we impose these same restrictions on wet shops?

Because the fallout of this COVD-19 is probably more or equally damaging than a fallout from a nuclear weapon.

Now, some parts of China like the wet shop in Wuhan are supposeldy now shut down. But what about other countries like Vietnam, Thailand, and Laos? They have wet shops as well and can pose global threat as well with viruses generated from certain animals.

I think the US SHOULD impose sanctions or strict restrictions on countries who slaughter animals in wet shops, just like we do with countries who have a nuclear program.


Walked right by one in Philadelphia, on the way to Pat's Steaks. Open storefront...cages, feathers everywhere, clucking and cawing. The smell was horrendous.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
rfields5421
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:39 pm

wardialer wrote:
I think the US SHOULD impose sanctions or strict restrictions on countries who slaughter animals in wet shops,


I guess that means imposing sanctions on Texas, Louisiana and Arkansas. I don't know about the other 47 states, but if you include fish in the definition, I'm sure most of the states would qualify.

Not as common a practice as in some other countries, but it does happen.

And a lot of wild game meat is sold in the US, with no FDA inspections, not even state sanitary requirements.

One booth as a weekend 'fair' in early March was linked to 10 COVID-19 positive tests in the Houston area. Sold 'fresh deer meat' burgers. News story said they were grinding the meat fresh with a hand grinder right before they made the burger patty.

Not implying a link between COVID-19 and wild deer meat. One of the workers for the charity running the booth had recently been in Europe.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
Derico
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:13 pm

Forget sanctions, people here are so darn shortsighted.

We need a comprehensive global treaty on how to handle emerging diseases in the future. All nations who sign the treaty agree to:
1. Certain standards of prevention and healthcare, and investment targets in their hospital system (including large stockpiles of essential equipment for doctors and nurses and idle extra capacity in hospitals)
2. Real-time information sharing about local conditions directly between doctors across borders (no governments in the middle), that should help prevent political interference.
3. More importantly, should some outbreak emerge, GLOBAL resources and funding are to be poured into the area since it would be much much cheaper to snuff out an illness within a small area. Snuff out first, deal with the costs later. Countries should also agree that very strict restrictions can be applied to the area in distress.
4. Countries who sign the treaty must also implement Biocontrol at all ports of entry (airports, ports, train stations). This is mainly my personal idea, but I have always found it amazing that we have go through customs (economic), or immigration (movement control), but NOT through a health inspection. I think we should all have to show we have medical insurance (affordable of course), we should have our temperature checked and be monitored for cough, and have our skin checked out. Finally we should have to show an immunization paper that we have been vaccinated for the most dangerous of global diseases (measles, polio, the usual suspects), and if not you should be denied getting on an airplane or train or ship (or entry into another country). This process should not take more than 10 minutes and it's a small price to pay really.

Members of the treaty enjoy unrestricted flow of goods and people as well as more benefits in sharing science and medical research, and for the poorest members help in investments. Those who do not sign would face much tougher norms for their citizens travelling overseas, and the threat of immediate and complete isolation should some illness emerge there. No sanctions, just the threat of serious economic and political harm should the choose not to cooperate.
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stl07
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:12 am

Then you would have to sanction Texas as well.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:36 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
just find some rural area where people are happy to be employed at a reasonable wage.

In this case, foreign countries whose labor laws allow you to pay as little as possible. Let's say that you move production to rural Louisiana...you still have to pay minimum wage ($7.25/hr) plus payroll taxes. The place you've set up shop in needs infrastructure to support logistics. The place will require more employees, which means you hire locally or entice people to move into Nowheresville, LA (which means you'll need to offer more than just minimum wage). Depending on how close or far you are from an airport or an interstate, that adds costs, which the town and state will have to pay for, which will start increasing the cost of living in the area.

Isn't that how America was built before it got dismantled. You don't need to overbuild the capacity and sell at discount, just to get executive bonuses year after year. Keep it at the right size, you don't need interstate or railroad.

China made us addicted to cheap disposable goods, most of which should be durable goods, not disposable.

US Taxpayer R&D dollars helped design many medical devices, but now Governors have to beg vendors to supply critical equipment from foreign countries.
All posts are just opinions.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:47 am

rfields5421 wrote:
wardialer wrote:
I think the US SHOULD impose sanctions or strict restrictions on countries who slaughter animals in wet shops,


I guess that means imposing sanctions on Texas, Louisiana and Arkansas. I don't know about the other 47 states, but if you include fish in the definition, I'm sure most of the states would qualify.

Not as common a practice as in some other countries, but it does happen.

And a lot of wild game meat is sold in the US, with no FDA inspections, not even state sanitary requirements.

One booth as a weekend 'fair' in early March was linked to 10 COVID-19 positive tests in the Houston area. Sold 'fresh deer meat' burgers. News story said they were grinding the meat fresh with a hand grinder right before they made the burger patty.

Not implying a link between COVID-19 and wild deer meat. One of the workers for the charity running the booth had recently been in Europe.


Or...just go to any Asian supermarkets all over US. Many larger one has tanks of swimming fish if you want to go there.

And as you said - plenty of fresh meat for sale that does NOT go to a central slaughterhouse in US - you just have to find them.

P.S. You know you can find live poultry for sale even in Hong Kong or Singapore, right? And Avian flu is always a concern, but so what?
 
rfields5421
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:59 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
made us addicted to cheap disposable goods, most of which should be durable goods, not disposable.


I'm old enough to remember when there was NO trade between the US and China, that your statement was valid years before that. Anyone else remember when Walmart went with a "Made in America" strategy, and consumers flocked away to buy a made in India pair of jeans for a dollar less at another store.

We have a certain standard of living in this country and it costs a certain amount of money to live here. One of the higher standards of living in the world. It will always be a fact that some other country can produce the same goods, at the same quality standard, for a cheaper price. If it takes X man hours to produce Y goods, there will always be someplace else, and other country, who can product that good at a cheaper price and some factory, plant, farm in the US. That is with paying their employees a good wage, by local standards. My social security would make a person in some countries the richest person in town. Let's just say it doesn't here.

The traditional way countries dealt with that was tariffs. Which can lead to a whole host of other problems.

There is no perfect solution, no perfect world. Change does happen, sometimes for the better. I remember when there were dozens of TV repair shops, thousand of people made a living repairing them and other small appliances. I also understand how the technology has made that not only unnecessary, but stupid to try to re-establish. Not just the technology of electronics, but of building the things in the first place.

The biggest source of job loss in US manufacturing is not the flight of the jobs overseas, but automation. Just think how many more people in the US would have great jobs if cars were not built on an assembly line, And robots didn't do almost all welding. And how many more man hours of human labor it would cost you the buyer for each one.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
KFTG
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:06 am

I'm guessing wet shops in Philadelphia and Texaa are more regulated than those in Wuhan.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:24 am

rfields5421 : I don't think Adam Smith was an advocate for tariffs. The way to deal with things is to have competitive industries that can export, to compensate for things you must import.

That works pretty well around the world, the US is rather an exception, not because of its standard of living, but because its currency is used all over, causing distortions.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
cpd
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:23 am

tommy1808 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Yes. And any other country that does business with them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnMmP25BDPI

how do you sanction yourself?

best regards
Thomas


All those products of American companies that are all made in China... America to sanction itself would be interesting.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:08 am

cpd wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Yes. And any other country that does business with them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnMmP25BDPI

how do you sanction yourself?

best regards
Thomas


All those products of American companies that are all made in China... America to sanction itself would be interesting.


yup.. ... and i absolutely love how many crimes against humanity the junta in Beijing could commit, as long as they shipped cheap stuff over and supplied cheap labor, everything was just peachy.... but a virus gets out of hand and hurts their stock portfolio/income.... they scream bloody murder....... sanction them!

I don´t think it is a coincidence that the very same people are now screaming for heavy equipment, to dig all the mass graves they will need for all the old and immunocompromised they want to send over the plank. I wonder if they argue the same around people that know where they are living.... that may come back and punch them after Covid-19 has offed their grand parents, parents, siblings and so on.

best regards
Thomas
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seb146
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:18 pm

In the United States, we have food safety regulations. If a large number of people are sick and they are all found to have consumed the same food, the FDA starts investigating and puts out warnings and notices and specific items are removed from shelves. Remember that spinach and lettuce were not available for weeks because of e. coli.

I hear all the time from people who are sick and tired of buying cheap crap from China and why can't we buy American? There are no factories here because big business decided to put profit ahead of people and ship jobs overseas. Factories could actually put people to work converting shuttered factories to produce medical supplies.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
dampfnudel
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:11 am

I think we’re witnessing a watershed event and the pressure on China to “clean their house” will be more significant than ever before due to the unprecedented economic and social hardship/disruption on a global scale.
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Erebus
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:34 am

I don't know what exactly is the definition of "wet shops".

But I would support meaningful sanctions against those countries and businesses that do not do enough to crack down on illegal wildlife trade, whether endangered, disease vectors or invasive to the local environment.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Should US impose Sanctions on countries who have "Wet Shops"?

Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:56 pm

In most cases it's the Humans that are invading wildlife habitats...
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams

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