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PixelPilot
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:16 pm

Anybody comparing China wet markets with what we have in the west either completely lost it or is a agent as I call them these days.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:19 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:


Wait until when exactly? 12 to 18 months for a vaccine ? wasn't the point of staying home is not to overwhelm the health facilities? now that it did not happen, what exactly are we waiting for? the vaccine? you want to pause economic activity for the majority of the people till a vaccine? Is that what you mean? because at this point why else should we stay 'hunkered' down?
\
Because if the MAJORITY goes back to work, we will overwhelm the facilities. Or do you want a special exemption just for you?


NO we won't overwhelm them, NY did not get even to half of their capacity, right now there are a lot of ventilators around, enough for a spike. No one died in the US because of a lack of a ventilator, that's according to NY governor Cuomo.

Ok great, so you propose we keep these restrictions till a vaccine comes out. That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. Do you know that SARS appeared in 2002 and there is no vaccine as of today? what happens if we don't find a vaccine for COVID19 2 years from now?


SARS was discovered late 2002 and it was so aggressive that everyone got violently sick and there wasn't this level of incubation time. Thus was only able to spread so far but wreaked havoc where it did. Fortunately it was able to be contained and petered out and there was no need for a vaccine.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
StarAC17
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:21 pm

kalvado wrote:
And it is not proven that fresh food market was the starting point - it is being argued it was a spreading venue, and that makes sence. How efficient is a total change of lifestyle? Should US lead by example with closing of farm stores and farmer markets?
Some infection recalls occur every few weeks even in industrial supply chain, you know, so it is just one layer of cheese stack.



US farmers markets don't have live animals on site that are killed and are caged above or below other live animals, most sell baked goods and produce. The bird flu passes to the cat which the human buys and the virus is able to jump, its fuel to fire. Pandemics like the Spanish flu happened a lot more naturally but these wet markets are a breeding ground for this.

COVID-19 is theorized to have passes from a Bat to a Pangolin which were at the Wuhan market.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
kalvado
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:24 pm

Revelation wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Revelation wrote:

No, people criticize China for having huge open air wet markets in major urban areas and doing nothing about it.

It's a lot different than some fleas hopping on to a tourist in Arizona.

And it is not proven that fresh food market was the starting point - it is being argued it was a spreading venue, and that makes sence. How efficient is a total change of lifestyle? Should US lead by example with closing of farm stores and farmer markets?

I can honestly say I've never seen a "farm store" in the US that would foster zoonic tranfser in the way the Chinese wet markets do.

I can honestly say I've never seen anything like a bat (live or dead) being offered for human consumption, or any other form of wild life, or cages of various live wild life being stacked on top of each other with a vendor offering to kill it for me right there on the spot.

I've seen nothing like we see in reports such as https://www.foxnews.com/world/chinas-we ... sual-items

The closest thing I've seen is an open air seafood market like Seattle's Pike Street Market, but the seafood is all on ice or refrigerated and nothing is being killed on the spot and you don't see animal guts or blood or droppings anywhere. I think the closest open air seafood market anywhere near me is in Boston but that's about it. So we're talking a small number in all of the New England states, none with a history of zoonic transfer, whereas Wuhan alone has over 400 wet markets.

Your "what about those 12 cases of plague a year" is a prime example of whataboutism.

You are using a lack of perfection in the US to excuse huge obvious issues elsewhere.

Even China sees an issue it is trying to address: http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-0 ... 870622.htm

kalvado wrote:
Because you see the open door somewhere, and happy that someone else would have to pay for it - but I see an open door close to home, and I argue closing that door is more efficient as it represents a much more imminent problem. As a wise man said,
You can't stop working on known issues just because an unknown issue eventually arises.

Inefficient bureaucracy is a known issue, and failure costs are escalating. It needs to be addressed.

It is not about "elsewhere". If there are markets offering live or dead bats for consumption or stacks of caged wild life for human consumption in the US I want them closed as well.

I, for one, always thought seafood sale in local supermarket is pretty ugly, with those live crabs with taped claws stuffed in a tiny stinky tank..
I heard a lot of horror stories about US slaughterhouses as well. Honestly speaking, I don't know if those can be made totally sanitary even as a best case. Fecal matter contamination of meat is what drives cooking conditions of many US sold meats.
Have you ever seen real-life slaughterhouse videos? I just don't dare..

So it is a matter of perspective after all. We can try to go all vegetarian - which is not feasible, I'm afraid. Cooking is supposed to the way to remove infection - otherwise, meat is infectious by default.
And yes, hunting wildlife for food is also legal in every country I know of - including US....
 
kalvado
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:28 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
And it is not proven that fresh food market was the starting point - it is being argued it was a spreading venue, and that makes sence. How efficient is a total change of lifestyle? Should US lead by example with closing of farm stores and farmer markets?
Some infection recalls occur every few weeks even in industrial supply chain, you know, so it is just one layer of cheese stack.



US farmers markets don't have live animals on site that are killed and are caged above or below other live animals, most sell baked goods and produce. The bird flu passes to the cat which the human buys and the virus is able to jump, its fuel to fire. Pandemics like the Spanish flu happened a lot more naturally but these wet markets are a breeding ground for this.

COVID-19 is theorized to have passes from a Bat to a Pangolin which were at the Wuhan market.

So, what makes these outbakes to happen in US? Image is from CDC website.
Image
It is just that COVID happened to be a new one.. Could one of those US outbrakes be caused by unknown agent someday?

Thats why multiple layers of defense are important.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:54 pm

kalvado wrote:
So, what makes these outbakes to happen in US? Image is from CDC website.
Image

So just ONE outbreak or three per thousands or millions of people (potentially per the pie chart) of something is supposed to be treated as equally a huge deal to a virus spreading and as contagious as COVID-19?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
kalvado
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:05 pm

Tugger wrote:
kalvado wrote:
So, what makes these outbakes to happen in US? Image is from CDC website.

So just ONE outbreak or three per thousands or millions of people (potentially per the pie chart) of something is supposed to be treated as equally a huge deal to a virus spreading and as contagious as COVID-19?

Tugg

One outbrake which turned out to be extremely bad compared to few hundred outbrakes which turned out controllable?
This is a lottery, after all. One of those hundreds could turn out equally bad.
That is why I am talking about recognizing inherited hazard of food supply chain and looking at other layers of cheese sandwich. Thats the way modern safety works.
Is western industrial meat processing inheritingly safe? Mad cow disease - which was another unknown unknown - says otherwise.
Moral - outbreaks did happen, and they will happen. There will be milder and worse ones. A system of dealing with those is a must - and existing system showed to be not fit for the task. Feel free to blame anyone, but deep anal inspection of FDA and CDC - and their European equivalents - is a much more pressing task.
 
PixelPilot
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:14 pm

kalvado wrote:
Tugger wrote:
kalvado wrote:
So, what makes these outbakes to happen in US? Image is from CDC website.

So just ONE outbreak or three per thousands or millions of people (potentially per the pie chart) of something is supposed to be treated as equally a huge deal to a virus spreading and as contagious as COVID-19?

Tugg

One outbrake which turned out to be extremely bad compared to few hundred outbrakes which turned out controllable?
This is a lottery, after all. One of those hundreds could turn out equally bad.
That is why I am talking about recognizing inherited hazard of food supply chain and looking at other layers of cheese sandwich. Thats the way modern safety works.
Is western industrial meat processing inheritingly safe? Mad cow disease - which was another unknown unknown - says otherwise.
Moral - outbreaks did happen, and they will happen. There will be milder and worse ones. A system of dealing with those is a must - and existing system showed to be not fit for the task. Feel free to blame anyone, but deep anal inspection of FDA and CDC - and their European equivalents - is a much more pressing task.


Fine but China covered this up.
Sugarcoat it pointing fingers anywhere else you want, fact still stands.
You have this pretty chart thx to transparency.
If not for heroic few Chinese doctors we would never know what's killing us till it would be WAY too late.
All your attacks on the US are so deeply flawed agent that you agenda is like an open book.

On another note for now is just talk. Wait few more months (hope not) and see where that leads.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/california-t ... ate-report
Last edited by PixelPilot on Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
Jalap
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:14 pm

According to https://twitter.com/vdwnico the virus still is spreading too much in the USA and Sweden. If you want to get rid of it, on average 1 sick person should infect less than 1 other person.

In Sweden 1 person infects 1,8 others.
In USA 1 person infects 1,7 others.
In Lombardy, infection rate is about 1.
France seems to be 0,7.
Belgium is about 0,6.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:16 pm

Revelation wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Revelation wrote:

No, people criticize China for having huge open air wet markets in major urban areas and doing nothing about it.

It's a lot different than some fleas hopping on to a tourist in Arizona.

And it is not proven that fresh food market was the starting point - it is being argued it was a spreading venue, and that makes sence. How efficient is a total change of lifestyle? Should US lead by example with closing of farm stores and farmer markets?

I can honestly say I've never seen a "farm store" in the US that would foster zoonic tranfser in the way the Chinese wet markets do.

I can honestly say I've never seen anything like a bat (live or dead) being offered for human consumption, or any other form of wild life, or cages of various live wild life being stacked on top of each other with a vendor offering to kill it for me right there on the spot.

I've seen nothing like we see in reports such as https://www.foxnews.com/world/chinas-we ... sual-items

The closest thing I've seen is an open air seafood market like Seattle's Pike Street Market, but the seafood is all on ice or refrigerated and nothing is being killed on the spot and you don't see animal guts or blood or droppings anywhere. I think the closest open air seafood market anywhere near me is in Boston but that's about it. So we're talking a small number in all of the New England states, none with a history of zoonic transfer, whereas Wuhan alone has over 400 wet markets.

Your "what about those 12 cases of plague a year" is a prime example of whataboutism.

You are using a lack of perfection in the US to excuse huge obvious issues elsewhere.

Even China sees an issue it is trying to address: http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-0 ... 870622.htm

kalvado wrote:
Because you see the open door somewhere, and happy that someone else would have to pay for it - but I see an open door close to home, and I argue closing that door is more efficient as it represents a much more imminent problem. As a wise man said,
You can't stop working on known issues just because an unknown issue eventually arises.

Inefficient bureaucracy is a known issue, and failure costs are escalating. It needs to be addressed.

It is not about "elsewhere". If there are markets offering live or dead bats for consumption or stacks of caged wild life for human consumption in the US I want them closed as well.


Again, wet market itself is NOT the problem. The lack of regulation on wet markets IS the problem. Being from Hong Kong, wet market is commonplace, yet they are also heavily regulated with regular checks on sanitary conditions.

Meanwhile, in mainland China, there are regulation...that are never enforced. That's the problem. Plus they do love their pangolins and civets and whatever exotic game animals you can think of (good luck finding those in HK or Singapore or Taiwan).
 
jetwet1
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:40 pm

And now our dear leader is taking aim at the one person in his administration that has actually provide clear and helpful information, mostly because he has a 30% higher approval rating....#don'tfireFauci

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... ation-fire
 
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par13del
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:59 pm

art wrote:
I have a question for those who believe that the novel coronavirus was developed in a laboratory in China but 'escaped' into the population. Why would a state develop a virus as a biological weapon which, if it was used ianywhere, would end up infecting the world including one's own state?

The same applies to a nuclear bombs and other biological weapons, none of those have genetic coding's, they can all affect their designers if triggered in the wrong location.
 
kalvado
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:11 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Revelation wrote:
kalvado wrote:

And it is not proven that fresh food market was the starting point - it is being argued it was a spreading venue, and that makes sence. How efficient is a total change of lifestyle? Should US lead by example with closing of farm stores and farmer markets?

I can honestly say I've never seen a "farm store" in the US that would foster zoonic tranfser in the way the Chinese wet markets do.

I can honestly say I've never seen anything like a bat (live or dead) being offered for human consumption, or any other form of wild life, or cages of various live wild life being stacked on top of each other with a vendor offering to kill it for me right there on the spot.

I've seen nothing like we see in reports such as https://www.foxnews.com/world/chinas-we ... sual-items

The closest thing I've seen is an open air seafood market like Seattle's Pike Street Market, but the seafood is all on ice or refrigerated and nothing is being killed on the spot and you don't see animal guts or blood or droppings anywhere. I think the closest open air seafood market anywhere near me is in Boston but that's about it. So we're talking a small number in all of the New England states, none with a history of zoonic transfer, whereas Wuhan alone has over 400 wet markets.

Your "what about those 12 cases of plague a year" is a prime example of whataboutism.

You are using a lack of perfection in the US to excuse huge obvious issues elsewhere.

Even China sees an issue it is trying to address: http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-0 ... 870622.htm

kalvado wrote:
Because you see the open door somewhere, and happy that someone else would have to pay for it - but I see an open door close to home, and I argue closing that door is more efficient as it represents a much more imminent problem. As a wise man said,

Inefficient bureaucracy is a known issue, and failure costs are escalating. It needs to be addressed.

It is not about "elsewhere". If there are markets offering live or dead bats for consumption or stacks of caged wild life for human consumption in the US I want them closed as well.


Again, wet market itself is NOT the problem. The lack of regulation on wet markets IS the problem. Being from Hong Kong, wet market is commonplace, yet they are also heavily regulated with regular checks on sanitary conditions.

Meanwhile, in mainland China, there are regulation...that are never enforced. That's the problem. Plus they do love their pangolins and civets and whatever exotic game animals you can think of (good luck finding those in HK or Singapore or Taiwan).

An interesting metric would be rate of foodborne ilnesses by country. Unfortunately, I couldn't find country level data, WHO only has it on region level (published for the first time... ), with Western Pacific Region including China, Mongolia, Japan, South korea - and some other countries (nice conglomerate, huh). Obviously, WPR is worse off than Europe - but better off than Africa or SE Asia and on par with East Medditerrian.
There is an interesting comment, though: "aflatoxin is estimated to be the leading cause of foodborne disease deaths in the Western Pacific Region. Aflatoxin is a toxin produced by mould that grows on grain" . There is also a lot more helminths than elsewhere.
Overall, my impression is things could be better but could be worse. After horror stories of this thread, I would expect things to be much worse.
Trichinellosis, which may or may not be a good metric, has the same case count in China and Italy - with population different by 20x.
If you can suggest any specific disease that can be used as a gauge, it may be an interesting comparison as well.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:20 pm

art wrote:
I have a question for those who believe that the novel coronavirus was developed in a laboratory in China but 'escaped' into the population. Why would a state develop a virus as a biological weapon which, if it was used ianywhere, would end up infecting the world including one's own state?

Count me in this camp. The coincidence between location of the Chinese only Level 4 lab and the alleged wet market as official place of origin is truly fascinating ;) , to say the least.
The 'escape' could have been unintentional... either a result of an accident (their Level 4 Lab's safety standards were questioned already in 2017) or someone selling test animals on said wet market.
China, just like Russia, doesn't care if 10,000 or 100,000 die, it's just an insignificant amount of people.
Consequent endless Chinese lies with the WHO playing along made the situation even worse.

An analogy: Gorbachev's USSR didn't want to contaminate entire Europe with radioactive fallout, but they did thanks to some idiots playing with a reactor. And then they lied for a week about what really happened.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:17 pm

This is what Walmart looks like in Michigan right now.

https://www.facebook.com/RTP4EVER/video ... 11334/?d=n
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:21 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
This is what Walmart looks like in Michigan right now.

https://www.facebook.com/RTP4EVER/video ... 11334/?d=n


To be really fair, personally I do feel the MI governor herself is going way too far.

Yes, things are not great in Michigan thanks to the giant outbreak in Detroit (the death toll is staggering...), but some of the measures are more insane than NYC...
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:32 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
This is what Walmart looks like in Michigan right now.

https://www.facebook.com/RTP4EVER/video ... 11334/?d=n


While declaring lawn care as non-essential may be bit far, box stores seems to the places where

1) Stores are open to buy essentials, not loiter around to buy other stuff, just because it is a box store.
2) There is a limit of 4 customers/1000 sq.ft,
3) Gardening doesn't start in Michigan until Mothers Day weekend.
4) Both Kroger and Meijer box stores reported employee deaths.

Landscaping crew travel in as a bunch, not alone like a plumber or HVAC contractor. How are they going to maintain social/physical distance.
All posts are just opinions.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:40 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
This is what Walmart looks like in Michigan right now.

https://www.facebook.com/RTP4EVER/video ... 11334/?d=n


While declaring lawn care as non-essential may be bit far, box stores seems to the places where

1) Stores are open to buy essentials, not loiter around to buy other stuff, just because it is a box store.
2) There is a limit of 4 customers/1000 sq.ft,
3) Gardening doesn't start in Michigan until Mothers Day weekend.
4) Both Kroger and Meijer box stores reported employee deaths.

Landscaping crew travel in as a bunch, not alone like a plumber or HVAC contractor. How are they going to maintain social/physical distance.


My landscaping company consists of a husband and wife. They live together. I'm sure there are plenty of those in Michigan. Why should they be prohibited from working outdoors? And people have greenhouses and indoor plants as well. People to mind their own business.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:49 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
You really think that for a once in a century phenomenon we would have been better prepared? Again you talk in hindsight, you were here in these forums when this was blowing up in China, all we talked about was impeachment. No one was prepared and yes it was a colossal mistake, catastrophic mistake, but you must also take into account the flimsy data and false information coming from China. As far as late January they still said that there was no 'evidence' of human to human transmission, when this began late October early November.


You may not have experience working in government or large companies, but they do a lot of scenario planning. Pandemic response is not an alien concept to the US government, but to take appropriate steps requires an executive branch that takes the steps seriously and delegates to the right people. We could have been ready if we wanted to be, but a certain group of people were in the way.

That line ‘we were only talking about impeachment’ has been used before and is still untrue. We both participated in the early goings of the first thread on the virus. What’s interesting is the different tune you were singing at the time:

I have to give it to the PC crowd, claiming the FLU kills more people. Yeah, the FLU which actually has a cure. Yet we have here some sort of contagion from a virus your only survival depends on your immune system. Talk about kids or the elderly, which they might be the most affected if this goes and possibly wiped out if it spreads.

And another nugget:

I find it amazing that despite the WHO and not even the CDC knowing full well exactly how this disease is you are so confident that this is equivalent to the FLU. Not even China has said anything concrete and clear regarding this, do you have some insider info on the ground in China?

Everything we know by now is just the things China is letting the world know.


Sounds like you were aware of why containment steps were needed long before right wing talking points clouded your views.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
drew777
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:51 am

"When somebody is president of the United States, your authority is total".

What a shit show. Maybe he meant president of the Philippines?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:11 am

drew777 wrote:
"When somebody is president of the United States, your authority is total".

What a shit show. Maybe he meant president of the Philippines?


He still hasn’t read the Constitution - or probably stopped after Article II, since he doesn’t like to read. Definitely unfamiliar with the 10th amendment.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:16 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
This is what Walmart looks like in Michigan right now.

https://www.facebook.com/RTP4EVER/video ... 11334/?d=n


While declaring lawn care as non-essential may be bit far, box stores seems to the places where

1) Stores are open to buy essentials, not loiter around to buy other stuff, just because it is a box store.
2) There is a limit of 4 customers/1000 sq.ft,
3) Gardening doesn't start in Michigan until Mothers Day weekend.
4) Both Kroger and Meijer box stores reported employee deaths.

Landscaping crew travel in as a bunch, not alone like a plumber or HVAC contractor. How are they going to maintain social/physical distance.


My landscaping company consists of a husband and wife. They live together. I'm sure there are plenty of those in Michigan. Why should they be prohibited from working outdoors? And people have greenhouses and indoor plants as well. People to mind their own business.


Sure there are some one person lawn care establishments, teenager doing a summer job, or the standard 6-8 person crew. How is the state going to enforce?

When two people from same family are not allowed to shop grocers, why would they be allowed to do landscaping.

Stores are open in a lock down to buy food and medicine.
All posts are just opinions.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2524
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:43 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

While declaring lawn care as non-essential may be bit far, box stores seems to the places where

1) Stores are open to buy essentials, not loiter around to buy other stuff, just because it is a box store.
2) There is a limit of 4 customers/1000 sq.ft,
3) Gardening doesn't start in Michigan until Mothers Day weekend.
4) Both Kroger and Meijer box stores reported employee deaths.

Landscaping crew travel in as a bunch, not alone like a plumber or HVAC contractor. How are they going to maintain social/physical distance.


My landscaping company consists of a husband and wife. They live together. I'm sure there are plenty of those in Michigan. Why should they be prohibited from working outdoors? And people have greenhouses and indoor plants as well. People to mind their own business.


Sure there are some one person lawn care establishments, teenager doing a summer job, or the standard 6-8 person crew. How is the state going to enforce?

When two people from same family are not allowed to shop grocers, why would they be allowed to do landscaping.

Stores are open in a lock down to buy food and medicine.


Ok. Maybe this week Whitmer will ban all groceries except vegetables, bread, and milk. You don't need anything else to survive.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:47 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

My landscaping company consists of a husband and wife. They live together. I'm sure there are plenty of those in Michigan. Why should they be prohibited from working outdoors? And people have greenhouses and indoor plants as well. People to mind their own business.


Sure there are some one person lawn care establishments, teenager doing a summer job, or the standard 6-8 person crew. How is the state going to enforce?

When two people from same family are not allowed to shop grocers, why would they be allowed to do landscaping.

Stores are open in a lock down to buy food and medicine.


Ok. Maybe this week Whitmer will ban all groceries except vegetables, bread, and milk. You don't need anything else to survive.


She and her DDS husband have five kids between them - unlikely they’d restrict groceries. :lol:
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N212R
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:14 am

Aaron747 wrote:
You may not have experience working in government or large companies, but they do a lot of scenario planning. Pandemic response is not an alien concept to the US government, but to take appropriate steps requires an executive branch that takes the steps seriously and delegates to the right people. We could have been ready if we wanted to be, but a certain group of people were in the way.


First to leave the office, first to shirk responsibility, first to pass the blame buck...a classic in government or large companies. And some folks still ask why the Chinese are cleaning our clocks in the first place.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:16 am

N212R wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
You may not have experience working in government or large companies, but they do a lot of scenario planning. Pandemic response is not an alien concept to the US government, but to take appropriate steps requires an executive branch that takes the steps seriously and delegates to the right people. We could have been ready if we wanted to be, but a certain group of people were in the way.


First to leave the office, first to shirk responsibility, first to pass the blame buck...a classic in government or large companies. And some folks still ask why the Chinese are cleaning our clocks in the first place.


Unless I've missed breaking news, China has not taken responsibility for this mess. In fact they tried to blame others for it. What is your motive?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:35 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Stores are open in a lock down to buy food and medicine.


Ok. Maybe this week Whitmer will ban all groceries except vegetables, bread, and milk. You don't need anything else to survive.


Smithfield shutdown a major pork processing plant because employees were tested positive. Are you going to protest to reopen pronto.

When we are proud of productivity dependent on lowest paid, no benefits front-line workforce, mostly minorities with comorbidities, few truck drivers go sick, you may miss some produce/dairy/deli. I believe that risk was baked in. BTW, you cannot find yeast anywhere to bake.

Read 42% Americans have Vitamin D deficiency, Blacks 82% deficient, Hispanics 70% deficient. We have the most expensive healthcare system. We gobble multi-vitamins like no other country. How did we end up here.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:40 am

"you had the WHOLE month of February, what did you and your administration do?"

And Trump throws a "fake news" to run away

"https://www.alternet.org/2020/04/you-know-youre-a-fake-trumps-temper-flares-when-a-reporter-nails-his-key-coronavirus-failure/"


For the record Trump doesn't have a good record in February.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/202 ... ot-vpx.cnn
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:13 am

N212R wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
You may not have experience working in government or large companies, but they do a lot of scenario planning. Pandemic response is not an alien concept to the US government, but to take appropriate steps requires an executive branch that takes the steps seriously and delegates to the right people. We could have been ready if we wanted to be, but a certain group of people were in the way.


First to leave the office, first to shirk responsibility, first to pass the blame buck...a classic in government or large companies. And some folks still ask why the Chinese are cleaning our clocks in the first place.


You forgot the golden parachutes or bailouts of the top.

Don't think for a minute that Chinese are any better in crisis management - in fact, mainland China in particular is full of people that are only good within the frame, but can't ever "think outside the box". That combine with heavy top-down management = when shit goes wrong, the panic is even more insane.
 
yonahleung
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:46 am

StarAC17 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
And it is not proven that fresh food market was the starting point - it is being argued it was a spreading venue, and that makes sence. How efficient is a total change of lifestyle? Should US lead by example with closing of farm stores and farmer markets?
Some infection recalls occur every few weeks even in industrial supply chain, you know, so it is just one layer of cheese stack.



US farmers markets don't have live animals on site that are killed and are caged above or below other live animals, most sell baked goods and produce. The bird flu passes to the cat which the human buys and the virus is able to jump, its fuel to fire. Pandemics like the Spanish flu happened a lot more naturally but these wet markets are a breeding ground for this.

COVID-19 is theorized to have passes from a Bat to a Pangolin which were at the Wuhan market.

Bat and Pangolin...that's how we have got SARS in the first place. SARS was quite easy to catch as it was only communicable 3 days after a patient starts to have fever. The Wuhan virus patients can transmit the virus even when asymptomatic. A wholly different beast
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:30 am

AMC Theaters likely to file for CH. 11

https://nypost.com/2020/04/10/amc-theat ... -shutdown/

They picked the wrong time to go on a buying spree.
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art
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:53 am

The acting UK leader is urging people to tolerate continuing lockdown to help "defeat" the virus. This sounds like fantasy to me. It would take nearly 20 years to reach 2/3 population immunity through infection and recovery at a rate of 10,000 new infections each day and that would assume lifetime immunity once recovered. Current UK positive tests are much lower than 10,000 a day.

So do countries resign themselves to a severe economic depression or do they resign themselves to a manageable level of disease until vaccine availability and distribution?

I am starting to think that the overall misery resulting from lockdown will exceed the overall misery of a higher number of infections if lockdown is eased.
 
GDB
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:21 am

scbriml wrote:
mad99 wrote:
I envy other lockdowns like you see in the UK or USA.


I'm not sure why, when some experts are predicting that UK deaths will possibly exceed those of Italy. The UK's 'official numbers' also only count people who tested positive and died in hospital. Deaths in care homes (there have been plenty by all accounts) are not currently included. I don't think the UK government has handled this as well as they might have.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12675 ... ic-peak-uk

We seem to be running critically short of PPE for NHS staff - there have been lots of reports about this and only long-winded non-answers from politicians.


Did you see Priti Patel the other day at the briefing, she shit the bed after two just questions, cliches, repeated word salad, refused three times to apologize for NHS deaths for lack of PPE.
This is why they have kept her away, as Home Sec that is odd, so they finally put her on as it was getting noticeable.
Big mistake, even Tory Press journos giving her a tough time.
And her with impending hearings about behavior as a minister. Not for nothing do even many in her own party call her Priti Vacant.

People are scared, it's natural that they turn to government, with the scale of deaths, the clear mismatch of rhetoric with results for NHS PPE, for many the scales will start falling from eyes.
Chamberlain was popular even after WW2 was declared, until it became clear he and many of his ministers were not up to the job.
A more pertinent example was Asquith, he was replaced by Lloyd -George after huge losses in 1915 caused in large part by British shells being mostly Boer War leftovers, too small and only good for use in the open, so hopeless on the modern battlefield of Europe. He was seen as lazy, too interested in shagging women 30 years his junior, had not ensured the nation was ready for war. Lloyd-George took over and completely re-shaped government.

I suppose when you are a small state obsessive, it must be tough to suddenly have to ditch that or face national disaster and political blowback it would take a generation to recover from.
Remember, the opposition are no longer led by an idiot and his toxic entourage, who let's face it, gifted Johnson his majority 5 months ago, yet in a different world to now.

As for the PM, while I have disliked him all the time he has been in public life, I am glad he is recovering, he has long been dismissive of illness in himself and others. Now a real life brush with death. His bluster and BS being no defence.
His generous citing of those who helped to save him, can you image the spluttering of Farage and those who are stupid/ignorant or just plain racist enough to ever take him seriously? A nurse from New Zealand? Oh well, that's fine, Commonwealth innit? But one from Portugal? That's in the EU!
(I have long hated, and when hearing personally pushed back on, usually old gits moaning about 'foreigners in hospitals', with the retort, most of them are working there).

For all that, he is light years better than Trump who unlike Johnson, is actually rather stupid and way nastier.
But I think it is the case that the UK government waited too long for a lockdown, we were expecting it for a good week or two before it came in. Cummings and his wack job ideas, which were soon ditched when proper modelling projected a death toll that would be appalling and for a government, be rather like the example of Asquith and his fate.

What price now all those years of NHS underfunding, social care slashing, police numbers gutted? Their whole program of government they were elected on, including the lie about magically 'getting Brexit done'?
Having a cabinet of total loyalty to a wacky cause rather than experience and competence?
Hence the likes of Patel having one of the great offices of state.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:53 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
LOT767301ER wrote:
About as pointless as the IMHE model. Where are the effects of 60 million unemployed and mass social unrest if that even remotely becomes true.


At the end of the day, many questions need to be answered. The latest projection says 60,000 will die from coronavirus, and doubtless it will even get to that amount, they will revise it down again. 60,000 is the same exact amount of deaths from the "normal" flu season 2017 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden-av ... 7-2018.htm

Panic is now the norm of life, its going to take a lot of time to convince people that this won't kill you, and this economy won't recover fast enough.

This is the biggest over reaction to a crisis ever in history at the expense of destroying millions of livelihoods. But you can't say it, without being accused of being something horrible.


With the "regular" flu, people go out and spread the virus like it's their duty.

Here we're doing the exact opposite.

If the outcome is the same number of deaths, then one virus is slightly dangerous, and the other very dangerous.

But you already know that, you keep saying the same thing over and over and over.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:00 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
You would be correct if the experts claimed they had pinpoint accuracy or crystal ball ability - except none of them did. No reputable scientist would ever claim they have all the answers.


True but we have taken them at their word since the beginning. Its not their fault the data was flawed and is still flawed, yet we all decided to believe them.


Don't worry folks, it'll go away, like magic !

You're being facetious, surely ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:07 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Stores are open in a lock down to buy food and medicine.


Ok. Maybe this week Whitmer will ban all groceries except vegetables, bread, and milk. You don't need anything else to survive.


Smithfield shutdown a major pork processing plant because employees were tested positive. Are you going to protest to reopen pronto.

When we are proud of productivity dependent on lowest paid, no benefits front-line workforce, mostly minorities with comorbidities, few truck drivers go sick, you may miss some produce/dairy/deli. I believe that risk was baked in. BTW, you cannot find yeast anywhere to bake.

Read 42% Americans have Vitamin D deficiency, Blacks 82% deficient, Hispanics 70% deficient. We have the most expensive healthcare system. We gobble multi-vitamins like no other country. How did we end up here.


I was wondering about this, how will companies deal with employing people without providing healthcare ?

And related : if an employee catches the virus, will lawsuits ensue ? You do love your lawsuits.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
olle
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:19 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
then you need to wait it out like everyone else, and work on some hobbies, home/car repair, or career advancement options.



Wait until when exactly? 12 to 18 months for a vaccine ? wasn't the point of staying home is not to overwhelm the health facilities? now that it did not happen, what exactly are we waiting for? the vaccine? you want to pause economic activity for the majority of the people till a vaccine? Is that what you mean? because at this point why else should we stay 'hunkered' down?


This is the model that Norway and Finland has been doing. Total lockdown.

The question is when will the workplaces and schools open? What happens then? The virus is there and can we then expect these countries to go thru again what Sweden / Denmark has experienced with its more limited lockdown?

Shall Countries like Sweden and Denmark then have the borders to Norway and Denmark closed to avoid a second wave of the virus?

the truth is that the experts only know that this will be going on until there is a vaccine or big part of the population has got it once. What the politicians and experts is considering will happen first is driving the strategies.
 
Etika
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:04 pm

olle wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
then you need to wait it out like everyone else, and work on some hobbies, home/car repair, or career advancement options.



Wait until when exactly? 12 to 18 months for a vaccine ? wasn't the point of staying home is not to overwhelm the health facilities? now that it did not happen, what exactly are we waiting for? the vaccine? you want to pause economic activity for the majority of the people till a vaccine? Is that what you mean? because at this point why else should we stay 'hunkered' down?


This is the model that Norway and Finland has been doing. Total lockdown.

The question is when will the workplaces and schools open? What happens then? The virus is there and can we then expect these countries to go thru again what Sweden / Denmark has experienced with its more limited lockdown?

Shall Countries like Sweden and Denmark then have the borders to Norway and Denmark closed to avoid a second wave of the virus?

the truth is that the experts only know that this will be going on until there is a vaccine or big part of the population has got it once. What the politicians and experts is considering will happen first is driving the strategies.


Denmark has had much more stringent lockdown than Sweden, in fact it is a bit more stringent than Finland (the difference being that Danish schools are completely closed while in Finland they are partially open). None of those countries are in total lockdown, workplaces other than restaurants and bars are still open and you may move outside. In fact, all of the Nordic countries have much less severe lockdown than France, Italy, Spain, or even Austria have had. Denmark, Norway, and Finland have done similar actions, Sweden is the odd man out.

But the main point of course still stands, especially with the numbers of people in hospital levelling off in many countries: What and how to start opening up the society again to prevent uncontrolled second wave happening.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:10 pm

As to 'wet markets', in a few miles of my home in New Jersey, USA, are live chicken stores where one can choose a chicken, have it killed and gutted there and take it home. There are also Halal (Islamic) butchers with live cattle for beef, chickens, goat and sheep they process per religious rules.

As to the limits on retail sales, a balance has to be met. Michigan may have gone too far with limiting access to gardening supplies. Access to gardening supplies should be allowed so can buy food plants and seeds, materials to maintain property. There is an unfairness to many retailers are forced to closed or only sell online, but Walmart, Target and other general product stores as sell food can continue to be fully open and sell clothing, bedding, bath and related home items other retail stores can't. 'Big box hardware' stores like Home Depot and Loew's are open as provide essential items from plumbing supplies, appliances, wood, but should have limited hours and encourage 'pick up' or home delivery to limit the numbers of persons in-store. Of course, due to political pressure, gun sales can continue, although moving to pick up sales after paperwork is processed.

Sadly, dozens have been killed in storms in the SE USA and normal help for those that lost or had heavy damage to their homes, access to medical care is limited due to distancing guidelines, limited options as to temporary housing,
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:52 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
You really think that for a once in a century phenomenon we would have been better prepared? Again you talk in hindsight, you were here in these forums when this was blowing up in China, all we talked about was impeachment. No one was prepared and yes it was a colossal mistake, catastrophic mistake, but you must also take into account the flimsy data and false information coming from China. As far as late January they still said that there was no 'evidence' of human to human transmission, when this began late October early November.


You may not have experience working in government or large companies, but they do a lot of scenario planning. Pandemic response is not an alien concept to the US government, but to take appropriate steps requires an executive branch that takes the steps seriously and delegates to the right people. We could have been ready if we wanted to be, but a certain group of people were in the way.

That line ‘we were only talking about impeachment’ has been used before and is still untrue. We both participated in the early goings of the first thread on the virus. What’s interesting is the different tune you were singing at the time:

I have to give it to the PC crowd, claiming the FLU kills more people. Yeah, the FLU which actually has a cure. Yet we have here some sort of contagion from a virus your only survival depends on your immune system. Talk about kids or the elderly, which they might be the most affected if this goes and possibly wiped out if it spreads.

And another nugget:

I find it amazing that despite the WHO and not even the CDC knowing full well exactly how this disease is you are so confident that this is equivalent to the FLU. Not even China has said anything concrete and clear regarding this, do you have some insider info on the ground in China?

Everything we know by now is just the things China is letting the world know.


Sounds like you were aware of why containment steps were needed long before right wing talking points clouded your views.


You are quite right, I did say that, and yes I doubted China all the way, and it has proven to me my suspicions all along, the same was said by Tucker Carlson, and other right wing commentators, but not much from liberals or progressives. But as you have mentioned to me many times I am not an expert, here is the expert on the record in February

Top disease official: Risk of coronavirus in USA is 'minuscule'; skip mask and wash hands
Fauci doesn't want people to worry about coronavirus, the danger of which is "just minuscule." But he does want them to take precautions against the "influenza outbreak, which is having its second wave."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/hea ... 787209002/
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:56 pm

Aesma wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
LOT767301ER wrote:
About as pointless as the IMHE model. Where are the effects of 60 million unemployed and mass social unrest if that even remotely becomes true.


At the end of the day, many questions need to be answered. The latest projection says 60,000 will die from coronavirus, and doubtless it will even get to that amount, they will revise it down again. 60,000 is the same exact amount of deaths from the "normal" flu season 2017 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden-av ... 7-2018.htm

Panic is now the norm of life, its going to take a lot of time to convince people that this won't kill you, and this economy won't recover fast enough.

This is the biggest over reaction to a crisis ever in history at the expense of destroying millions of livelihoods. But you can't say it, without being accused of being something horrible.


With the "regular" flu, people go out and spread the virus like it's their duty.

Here we're doing the exact opposite.

If the outcome is the same number of deaths, then one virus is slightly dangerous, and the other very dangerous.

But you already know that, you keep saying the same thing over and over and over.

Yes, by the way, your President announced yesterday that schools will re-open on May 11th. He seems its worth the risk, to be one of the first nations to reopen schools after this crisis.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:59 pm

Aesma wrote:
I was wondering about this, how will companies deal with employing people without providing healthcare ?

And related : if an employee catches the virus, will lawsuits ensue ? You do love your lawsuits.


Thanks to ObamaCare situation is better now. Pre-ObamaCare days private insurers used to reject claims at their will. I think Medicare/MedicAid and CHIP(Children) are the options who cannot get private insurance, not 100% sure.

Lawsuits did cross my mind, but I think private businesses are immuned because CDC never mandated protective gear to non-healthcare employees.

BTW, one county in Michigan changing that rule, masks are must for all customer facing front-line employees, including stores. That is a step in the right direction, infections are not slowing at a rapid rate, and bus drivers, store clerks are dying along with healthcare workers.

Root causes of the healthcare system failure are inflated prices charged by private hospitals and pharmaceuticals. List price for a procedure which actually costs $1,000 is shown a $10,000, that negotiated prices, insurance coverage, co-pay deductibles... If you read the Hydroxychloroquine thread, an 80 year old generic drug which is Rupees 3 in India costs $11 a dose here.
All posts are just opinions.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:10 pm

I found these news very interesting, I thought Russia had this "under control", after donating to many countries supplies and such:

Putin Warns That Russia's COVID-19 Pandemic Is Getting Worse
After insisting less than a month ago that COVID-19 in Russia was "under control," President Vladimir Putin on Monday squarely acknowledged the opposite, with the largest day-to-day increase in cases to date and the head of the coronavirus task force warning that the country is "nowhere near" peak infections.

"We see that the situation is changing almost daily and, unfortunately, not for the better," Putin said in a video conference with health officials, according to The Moscow Times. "The number of people who are getting sick is increasing, with more cases of severe illness."

Today, Russia's coronavirus response center reported more than 2,700 new cases and 22 new deaths, bringing the total number of infections to more than 21,000 and 170 deaths. The capital, Moscow, has been hardest-hit, with more than 11,500 cases.


Would Russia call back all the donations they gave? it seems that now they may need them.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
PixelPilot
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:06 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
I found these news very interesting, I thought Russia had this "under control", after donating to many countries supplies and such:

Putin Warns That Russia's COVID-19 Pandemic Is Getting Worse
After insisting less than a month ago that COVID-19 in Russia was "under control," President Vladimir Putin on Monday squarely acknowledged the opposite, with the largest day-to-day increase in cases to date and the head of the coronavirus task force warning that the country is "nowhere near" peak infections.

"We see that the situation is changing almost daily and, unfortunately, not for the better," Putin said in a video conference with health officials, according to The Moscow Times. "The number of people who are getting sick is increasing, with more cases of severe illness."

Today, Russia's coronavirus response center reported more than 2,700 new cases and 22 new deaths, bringing the total number of infections to more than 21,000 and 170 deaths. The capital, Moscow, has been hardest-hit, with more than 11,500 cases.


Would Russia call back all the donations they gave? it seems that now they may need them.


US will send them some and then we will have Russia Russia 2.0 just before election lol
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:16 pm

I think governments are at best staggering the outbreak hot spots during this pandemic so there there are enough supplies and medical systems won't collapse, sure US will/should supplies to any country in need.

I am sure Russia can also get from China, which emptied medical supplies from every other country using Diagou and PLA shell companies.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:52 pm

I think the media has had enough with Drumpfh:

The CNN chyron writer has had it


Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Ref: https://twitter.com/OhHaiDRol/status/12 ... 2514392064
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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N212R
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:55 pm

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ ... -wuhan-lab

Seems the "conspiracy theorists" have better sources than the WaPo and NYT. What's that John Prine song, "The Great Compromise"...
 
PixelPilot
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:57 pm

Revelation wrote:
I think the media has had enough with Drumpfh:

The CNN chyron writer has had it



I'm pretty sure just the left cause right side twitter exploded with joy of Trump roasting the "journos".
Also Fauci was pretty strict with one of the journos trying to bait him.

Not much will change till November lol.
Hope I have enough popcorn.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:02 pm

N212R wrote:
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/us-state-department-cables-warned-potential-sars-pandemic-after-visiting-wuhan-lab

Seems the "conspiracy theorists" have better sources than the WaPo and NYT. What's that John Prine song, "The Great Compromise"...

And? This was already a known fact. Still does not prove anything to state that the virus was created and released from the Wuhan lab. You do understand that, right? The USA has the same kinds of labs, where is your research on them?

There is research into the source of the virus, there is tons of high level excellent genetic labs out there that can literally look at what the virus is and how it came about etc. If it is was created it will be known.

But carry on.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Tugger
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:10 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Trump roasting the "journos".

:rotfl:
Yeah, that describes Trump pretty much, unable to handle much criticism and of course the MAGA followers blindly follow and can only praise. (Seriously, ONLY praise. They create a "He done good.. " out of anything he does, even when if done by others they would be ridiculing left and right. But that is MAGA's for you. So please carry on acting as we expect you to. Cheer for Trump and all he does! Yay Trump!)

Yup, no surprise. Because, you know "roasting" is great. It is what all people do all the time to respond properly. Best governance of of everything from companies to family issues wouldn't be anywhere with out roasting all the time. Why do you think Comedy Central host roasts? It the smart thing to do! That's why you see it at most press conferences from most leaders.

Uhh, yeah...

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey

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