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PPVRA
Posts: 8576
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:05 am

winginit wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
BTW, what do you think of Sweden, they don't have much of restrictions, why don't they follow your line of thinking?


Yes, let's check in on Sweden:

Image

Oh... oh dear... look I'm no expert but that seems... that seems quite bad.


Sweden’s strategy means things don’t look as good early on. But the idea is that it’s more sustainable in the long run, and eventually deaths might even out between them and their neighbors.

Remains to be seen how it turns out.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8479
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:50 am

PPVRA wrote:
...
After all, air travel collapsed before quarantines were put in place. There’s a lot people can do on their own if they’re motivated.


In hindsight, if every airline in the world mandated masks for crew, ground staff, passengers, it wouldn't have collapsed. Cabin crew were getting infected, Pilots were complaining, still because of IATA's recommendation most airlines didn't give masks to crew.

Canada is implementing mandatory masks for air travel, that is a slap on IATA's face with HQ in Montreal.
https://www.canada.ca/en/transport-cana ... ystem.html

Even on Feb 5, 2020, IATA doctor was insisting on no masks.
https://www.msn.com/en-sg/news/world/%E ... li=AAaGkVj
All posts are just opinions.
 
art
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:28 am

I hear that many people object to having restrictions imposed on them due to the virus. I wonder if any of them have considered how much the disease would expand without restrictions on movement and contact.

I take this as a given: COVID-19 has an R0 of 2-3 with normal social behaviour.

Assume 7 iterations of infection at different R0's (1 person infects others and this is repeated 7 times).

With R0 of 2.0, a single infected person generates 256 infections (2 to the 7th)
With R0 of 2.5, a single infected person generates 1525 infections (2.5 to the 7th)
With R0 of 3.0, a single infected person generates 6561 infections (3.0 to the 7th)

I think this is why even the most reluctant governments feel obliged to impose restrictions.

As for the USA with about 750,000 confirmed infections now, the entire population would be infected after 8 iterations at R0 2.0, 7 iterations at R0 2.5, 6 iterations at R0 3.0. Purely guessing that it takes 10 days for each victim to become infected then pass the infection on, the entire population of the USA would be infected in 2-3 months if everyone returned to their normal behaviour.
Last edited by art on Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:28 am

To me many of the right wing protesters fear a slippery slope that if government can have such strict emergency orders, they might be able to take away their guns and property. Some on their side, as well as many liberals, also fear like China that you will have to be tracked on your cellphone, rat out friends and family who have symptoms. People across the political spectrum are jobless with no sight of a decent paying job for the many months, yet needing income for food, rent, other basic needs. Many businesses will be destroyed. Many made mistakes, dumb stuff happened, that common is such events.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:37 am

speedking wrote:
Aesma wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

It is sad so many people have to lose their lives to one of the biggest scam in this country. The worst part, most paid their own hard earned savings to die an unnecessary death.

I don;t know the logistics involved, but most of these people should have been moved to hospitals or homes rather than letting them die in bulk.


Nursing homes are cheap compared to the alternative. Unless you have a family member that can take care of you full time.

An uncle of mine has Parkinson's, he has the means to pay for 2 full time carers, good for him, most people certainly can't do that.


Nursing home Canadian style. 31 dead:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/16/worl ... virus.html

"Dehydrated residents lying listless in bed, unfed for days, with excrement seeping out of their diapers.."

A more humane and cheaper way to treat those people would have been a .44 Mag. (56¢/round)


Well I'm in favor of assisted suicide but it's not legal yet in my country, plenty of people get "help" from doctors anyway. Others go the legal route using Switzerland. In any case just like DNR people need to think of this well in advance.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:41 am

art : I think the R0 is being revised upwards, towards a value of 6 or even 9 !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2335
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:49 am

PPVRA wrote:
winginit wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
BTW, what do you think of Sweden, they don't have much of restrictions, why don't they follow your line of thinking?


Yes, let's check in on Sweden:

Image

Oh... oh dear... look I'm no expert but that seems... that seems quite bad.


Sweden’s strategy means things don’t look as good early on. But the idea is that it’s more sustainable in the long run, and eventually deaths might even out between them and their neighbors.

Remains to be seen how it turns out.


Yes, it will be interesting to see the total death count in the long run.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
N757ST
Posts: 1034
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:04 am

Aesma wrote:
art : I think the R0 is being revised upwards, towards a value of 6 or even 9 !



Which would start to explain the antibody testing results saying it’s 50-80x more prevalent, the Quincy serialized testing, and the Boston homeless shelter test. There might be a very very significant portion of the population that is asymptomatic or have very little symptoms, with a significant amount also needing acute care.
 
DLFREEBIRD
Posts: 1545
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:07 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:25 am

Question? does anybody know where Dr. Deborah Birx gets her data from?
 
Concierge
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:37 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Eyad89 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

You absolutely don't understand, its not about staying home. Home is wonderful, home is great. There are many situations being created for 'staying home'. You got kids with special needs who need to go to school, you got people with health conditions that need to frequent a health center but can't because of this, you got people with businesses that are shut but need to pay bills, you got men and women who don't have money to feed their kids or pay bills because are laid off, you got people who can't go to church, you got people dealing with mental issues that can't see their doctors, you got many many issues. This is not complaining about staying home.

As for rights, I can't practice my religious faith, this is is just one of the other rights I am sacrificing for the greater good. The worse is that all of this is government mandated, I am being obligated under the penalty of prison to comply on resigning to my rights and privileges that I have been guaranteed under the constitution of this country.

All of this is going on while a massive power grab is occurring in silence and we are all more than willing to allow this to happen because of the panic induced fear (based on flawed data) the government en the MSM has created so we comply.

I got friends in the UK, and he is more than happy to comply, you guys over there have a different sort of spirit, same goes with Europeans, you folks believe too much on your government and institutions, that's good, contrary to this country where government isn't that involved in our lives.



It’s very simple, right to life comes before right to freedom.

Somebody’s else right to live is more important than your right to choose when to leave home.

We are at this point now, we have to choose one of those two, and the answer is clear.


No wonder the US is the country with the most deaths by far if so many people don’t get why they should stay home.


So I suppose no one is allowed to drive a car because they just might kill someone?

Or perhaps buying a hamburger is not allowed because I might die from a heart attack?

There is a risk for everything we do in life, does that mean we regulate and stop people from doing millions of things?

BTW, what do you think of Sweden, they don't have much of restrictions, why don't they follow your line of thinking?



If the number of deaths in motor vehicle accidents was increasing at the rate of COVID 19, action would be taken. Motor vehicle operation is a very poor comparison. Few things are more strictly controlled from design requirements, to licensing, speed limits and mandatory seat belt laws.

Your right to a hamburger is constrained when e coli shows up in ground beef. If that's too restrictive, well bon appetit!

It's impossible to teach someone to care about others, so we have laws.
 
olle
Posts: 2493
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:12 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
winginit wrote:

Yes, let's check in on Sweden:

Image

Oh... oh dear... look I'm no expert but that seems... that seems quite bad.


Sweden’s strategy means things don’t look as good early on. But the idea is that it’s more sustainable in the long run, and eventually deaths might even out between them and their neighbors.

Remains to be seen how it turns out.


Yes, it will be interesting to see the total death count in the long run.



In sweden the R number is aroun 1.0 in norway 0.7 and denmark 0.9. Finland hadthe corona in Helsinki and locked the area off fromthe rest of the country. But too late. Denmark and Germany is open up. R numbers of 1.2 is expected.

Still belgium and sweden count dead in nursey homes. Holland,UK etc do not. They count for30 to 50% of the dead.
 
Eyad89
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:47 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:25 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:


So I suppose no one is allowed to drive a car because they just might kill someone?

Or perhaps buying a hamburger is not allowed because I might die from a heart attack?

There is a risk for everything we do in life, does that mean we regulate and stop people from doing millions of things?

BTW, what do you think of Sweden, they don't have much of restrictions, why don't they follow your line of thinking?



I will you use your driving example.

Can you drive when drunk? no. Why don't you then complain about your rights to freedom and how you should have the right to drink whenever you want? Answer is, because you can kill someone while practicing your right to freedom, it has become illegal.

Same here, you leaving home while being infected could kill some people.

As for Sweden, first of all they have the worst infection/death per capita when compared to other Scandinavian countries that actually decided to go for a complete lockdown, so that's a start. Then, they still have restrictions. All universities and high schools are closed, all gatherings of more than 50 people are prohibited, and many industries/shops have closed as well.
 
GDB
Posts: 13834
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:28 am

scbriml wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
My civil liberties, my freedoms have been infringed for quite a long time now, I have accepted all in the name of the common good but this is unprecedented.


There are plenty of people living a much harder lives than most of us will ever experience. I wonder what they'd think about the endless bleating about rights and freedoms while being asked to spend a few weeks indoors to help reduce the spread of a deadly virus? I expect those Americans that sacrificed their lives in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq would have little sympathy with the "hardship" of being asked to stay indoors.

A lot of people seem to be missing a sense of perspective.


You have managed to say what I was planning to, though I would likely have been banned due to the extremely strong language used to express my utter contempt for these selfish, stupid idiots.
How to make it simple for idiots?
Maybe try to point out to them that if lockdown, which we all hate but actual grown ups (in attitude not age though most kids also seem to get it), are aware of how needed it is to save lives.

So if you exit it too soon, or ignore it, there will be another wave of the virus and guess what will happen again?
Hence why governments which are basically responsible, who are suffering great economic and increasing related social pressures too, are very cautious about lifting restrictions on social distancing.
As there might well be further waves of Covid, as similar virus strains have done, which also tend not to give long term immunity to those had already had it. Then guess what? Another lockdown. I would say more deaths but these protestors and really deep down, their idol Trump, do not care about that, or think somehow they are immune. Do they think a vaccine is imminent? Well it isn't.

Now that would ironic, another lockdown, all the economic problem that brings, right when the clown in the White House would fear it the most. In the fall of this year.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2715
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:02 am

Eyad89 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:


So I suppose no one is allowed to drive a car because they just might kill someone?

Or perhaps buying a hamburger is not allowed because I might die from a heart attack?

There is a risk for everything we do in life, does that mean we regulate and stop people from doing millions of things?

BTW, what do you think of Sweden, they don't have much of restrictions, why don't they follow your line of thinking?



I will you use your driving example.

Can you drive when drunk? no. Why don't you then complain about your rights to freedom and how you should have the right to drink whenever you want? Answer is, because you can kill someone while practicing your right to freedom, it has become illegal.

Same here, you leaving home while being infected could kill some people.

As for Sweden, first of all they have the worst infection/death per capita when compared to other Scandinavian countries that actually decided to go for a complete lockdown, so that's a start. Then, they still have restrictions. All universities and high schools are closed, all gatherings of more than 50 people are prohibited, and many industries/shops have closed as well.


But you can protect yourself by staying in your home if you don't feel safe. No one is proposing forcing you to leave. All we ask is that you don't impose your views on those of us who do want to go to work and go the gym to prevent other health issues.

Your drunk driving comparison isn't valid. You take the risk every day if you drive of being hit by a drink driver. We don't require everyone to submit to a breath test before starting their car.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2715
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:05 am

GDB wrote:
scbriml wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
My civil liberties, my freedoms have been infringed for quite a long time now, I have accepted all in the name of the common good but this is unprecedented.


There are plenty of people living a much harder lives than most of us will ever experience. I wonder what they'd think about the endless bleating about rights and freedoms while being asked to spend a few weeks indoors to help reduce the spread of a deadly virus? I expect those Americans that sacrificed their lives in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq would have little sympathy with the "hardship" of being asked to stay indoors.

A lot of people seem to be missing a sense of perspective.


You have managed to say what I was planning to, though I would likely have been banned due to the extremely strong language used to express my utter contempt for these selfish, stupid idiots.
How to make it simple for idiots?
Maybe try to point out to them that if lockdown, which we all hate but actual grown ups (in attitude not age though most kids also seem to get it), are aware of how needed it is to save lives.

So if you exit it too soon, or ignore it, there will be another wave of the virus and guess what will happen again?
Hence why governments which are basically responsible, who are suffering great economic and increasing related social pressures too, are very cautious about lifting restrictions on social distancing.
As there might well be further waves of Covid, as similar virus strains have done, which also tend not to give long term immunity to those had already had it. Then guess what? Another lockdown. I would say more deaths but these protestors and really deep down, their idol Trump, do not care about that, or think somehow they are immune. Do they think a vaccine is imminent? Well it isn't.

Now that would ironic, another lockdown, all the economic problem that brings, right when the clown in the White House would fear it the most. In the fall of this year.


You don't seem to be factoring in civil unrest. It's already happening. You can't lock up innocent people indefinitely and expect cooperation. Federal judges are not ruling in your favor.
 
DLFREEBIRD
Posts: 1545
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:07 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:19 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Eyad89 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:


So I suppose no one is allowed to drive a car because they just might kill someone?

Or perhaps buying a hamburger is not allowed because I might die from a heart attack?

There is a risk for everything we do in life, does that mean we regulate and stop people from doing millions of things?

BTW, what do you think of Sweden, they don't have much of restrictions, why don't they follow your line of thinking?



I will you use your driving example.

Can you drive when drunk? no. Why don't you then complain about your rights to freedom and how you should have the right to drink whenever you want? Answer is, because you can kill someone while practicing your right to freedom, it has become illegal.

Same here, you leaving home while being infected could kill some people.

As for Sweden, first of all they have the worst infection/death per capita when compared to other Scandinavian countries that actually decided to go for a complete lockdown, so that's a start. Then, they still have restrictions. All universities and high schools are closed, all gatherings of more than 50 people are prohibited, and many industries/shops have closed as well.


But you can protect yourself by staying in your home if you don't feel safe. No one is proposing forcing you to leave. All we ask is that you don't impose your views on those of us who do want to go to work and go the gym to prevent other health issues.

Your drunk driving comparison isn't valid. You take the risk every day if you drive of being hit by a drink driver. We don't require everyone to submit to a breath test before starting their car.


Who in their right mind would go to a gym during a pandemic?
The average gym franchise location typically has 1000-10,000 members, but you don't see these people because 80% of the memberships go unused
so on average a gym will have 41 members there at a time. Obviously some gym will have more people, this is just an average. How in the world do you think that will be safe? If you're all using the same equipment and sweating and leaving droplets everywhere?
 
Eyad89
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:47 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:41 am

TTailedTiger wrote:

But you can protect yourself by staying in your home if you don't feel safe. No one is proposing forcing you to leave. All we ask is that you don't impose your views on those of us who do want to go to work and go the gym to prevent other health issues.



It has been shown that this virus is being spread in part by people who don't know that they have it. The long incubation period of this virus makes it very difficult to contain.

If you don't force everyone to stay home, how can you make sure those who carry it don't go outside and spread it to others?

What if you go to the gym but the person running next to you is breathing out this virus, and yeah, you CAN catch this virus from someone breathing or talking next to you.

TTailedTiger wrote:
Your drunk driving comparison isn't valid. You take the risk every day if you drive of being hit by a drink driver. We don't require everyone to submit to a breath test before starting their car.


Imaging driving while drunk wasn't illegal, how safe would driving be? Even then, it wouldn't be as bad as this pandemic.

again, no one is complaining about their freedom to drink and drive, right?
Last edited by Eyad89 on Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Jalap
Posts: 647
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:18 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
There are all types of regulations, none of which would ever avoid risks. There are risks for almost anything in life,

Now there's a new high risk thing.
So there's need for new regulations.
New regulations -> decision needs to be made on how many deaths are acceptible. The more deaths are considered to be ok, the less regulation is needed. As it is with everything else in life.
And unlike with banning alcohol in traffic, with the corona measures you see effect as quickly as in 2 weeks. Hundreds of thousands of lives have been saved already. And this is chrystal clear with hard proof available.

Perhaps the confinement measures are the most effective measures ever taken to save lives. Worldwide.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
in fact, I can say something right that might endanger the life of others, yet I have freedom of expression that must be respected.

Is it legal to publicly say "Kill all jews!" in the USA? Or to publicly call for Jihad?
In Europe it isn't.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
can we hide for 18 months to avoid 'killing' ourselves as you mention? I might just die of hunger if I were to follow your perception because I would need to go to the store and buy food, but there I can get infected or infect someone else? till where would you allow the liberties and freedoms be infringed upon yourself? You might just starve to death if you follow strictly the rules that supposedly will avoid spreading corona virus.

It's clear all over the world that confinement measures that still allow visiting stores and running in the park result in a reproduction rate between 0,8 and 0,5. 8 or 10 weeks at this reproduction rate will allow to open up most of the country. The little virus that is left will still need to be monitored VERY carefully to avoid a second outbreak.

Any other approach will result in a reproduction rate higher that 1. A scenario that'll lead to full comtamination of the population. Then you'll still need to think about measures, to decide at what speed you want the whole population contaminated.
- You could try to keep it as low as possible till vaccine arrives. The Swedish approach. Time will tell how that turns out, but with a reproduction rate of close to 2, I hope for them that it doesn't take a year for the vaccine to arrive.
- You could choose for the old life with a reproduction rate of 4 or 5. Meaning the whole population is infected in only a few months and all is mostly over and done with in perhaps 6 months. Price of that freedom is a few millions of Americans dead.

In every scenario, there is a price to pay. What is the price you want to pay?
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4429
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:27 pm

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... sars-cov-2

This is not the final word on masks, only one study. It does raise serious questions about homemade and surgical masks and the covid-19 virus.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1204
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:44 pm

scbriml wrote:

What's actually stopping you practicing your religious faith at home? I imagine your god would understand. Your rights haven't been lost, some of them have been temporarily suspended to help slow the spread of the virus, just like mine and pretty much everyone else's. As I understand it, the Supreme Court has ruled multiple times that constitutional rights are not unlimited.


I don't really want to get into the details of my religious faith (very personal), because I have been attacked by it here, and I appear to trigger some people because of that (not you), so I would prefer not to get into the details of it.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1204
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:48 pm

Concierge wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Eyad89 wrote:


It’s very simple, right to life comes before right to freedom.

Somebody’s else right to live is more important than your right to choose when to leave home.

We are at this point now, we have to choose one of those two, and the answer is clear.


No wonder the US is the country with the most deaths by far if so many people don’t get why they should stay home.


So I suppose no one is allowed to drive a car because they just might kill someone?

Or perhaps buying a hamburger is not allowed because I might die from a heart attack?

There is a risk for everything we do in life, does that mean we regulate and stop people from doing millions of things?

BTW, what do you think of Sweden, they don't have much of restrictions, why don't they follow your line of thinking?



If the number of deaths in motor vehicle accidents was increasing at the rate of COVID 19, action would be taken. Motor vehicle operation is a very poor comparison. Few things are more strictly controlled from design requirements, to licensing, speed limits and mandatory seat belt laws.

Your right to a hamburger is constrained when e coli shows up in ground beef. If that's too restrictive, well bon appetit!

It's impossible to teach someone to care about others, so we have laws.


There is a risk for everything, in 2018 36,000 people died from car accidents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_veh ... S._by_year

Are we willing to reduce the speed limit to 20 miles per hour everywhere so that number goes to zero? probably not. Are we willing to not allow anyone to drive, even worse not.


We have learned to live with the risks.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
GDB
Posts: 13834
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:49 pm

One aspect of the lockdown, apparently the US has gone without a school shooting for a month, the first time since March 2002.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1204
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:52 pm

Jalap wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
There are all types of regulations, none of which would ever avoid risks. There are risks for almost anything in life,

Now there's a new high risk thing.
So there's need for new regulations.
New regulations -> decision needs to be made on how many deaths are acceptible. The more deaths are considered to be ok, the less regulation is needed. As it is with everything else in life.
And unlike with banning alcohol in traffic, with the corona measures you see effect as quickly as in 2 weeks. Hundreds of thousands of lives have been saved already. And this is chrystal clear with hard proof available.

Perhaps the confinement measures are the most effective measures ever taken to save lives. Worldwide.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
in fact, I can say something right that might endanger the life of others, yet I have freedom of expression that must be respected.

Is it legal to publicly say "Kill all jews!" in the USA? Or to publicly call for Jihad?
In Europe it isn't.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
can we hide for 18 months to avoid 'killing' ourselves as you mention? I might just die of hunger if I were to follow your perception because I would need to go to the store and buy food, but there I can get infected or infect someone else? till where would you allow the liberties and freedoms be infringed upon yourself? You might just starve to death if you follow strictly the rules that supposedly will avoid spreading corona virus.

It's clear all over the world that confinement measures that still allow visiting stores and running in the park result in a reproduction rate between 0,8 and 0,5. 8 or 10 weeks at this reproduction rate will allow to open up most of the country. The little virus that is left will still need to be monitored VERY carefully to avoid a second outbreak.

Any other approach will result in a reproduction rate higher that 1. A scenario that'll lead to full comtamination of the population. Then you'll still need to think about measures, to decide at what speed you want the whole population contaminated.
- You could try to keep it as low as possible till vaccine arrives. The Swedish approach. Time will tell how that turns out, but with a reproduction rate of close to 2, I hope for them that it doesn't take a year for the vaccine to arrive.
- You could choose for the old life with a reproduction rate of 4 or 5. Meaning the whole population is infected in only a few months and all is mostly over and done with in perhaps 6 months. Price of that freedom is a few millions of Americans dead.

In every scenario, there is a price to pay. What is the price you want to pay?


Again, we are seeing only one side of the equation.

We can keep this measures for 18 months, but are you taking into account the long term effects? the deaths as a result of depression, suicide, hunger, violence? Only seeing one side of the problem is what has led to this problem and is leading the world to an economic depression.

Hiding for 18 months until a vaccine comes out, its an unsustainable goal, anywhere. People will get infected, people will die, even if we try to keep this as long as we can. I agree we should keep those most vulnerable at home, those who are more prone to die, but those of us who only have a 0.1% or less chance of dying, should go on. In any case if you prefer to stay, you are also free to stay, but don't force me to accept house arrest for 18 months.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
marcelh
Posts: 1102
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:21 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
....., but those of us who only have a 0.1% or less chance of dying, should go on. In any case if you prefer to stay, you are also free to stay, but don't force me to accept house arrest for 18 months.


Who has a 0.1% or less chance of dying? And how do you determine that 0.1%? Is it 0.1% chance of dying in a "pre-COVID19 society", or 0.1% chance in a society which has some sort of social distancing? And what is in your opinon "some sort of social distancing"?
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1204
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:35 pm

marcelh wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
....., but those of us who only have a 0.1% or less chance of dying, should go on. In any case if you prefer to stay, you are also free to stay, but don't force me to accept house arrest for 18 months.


Who has a 0.1% or less chance of dying? And how do you determine that 0.1%? Is it 0.1% chance of dying in a "pre-COVID19 society", or 0.1% chance in a society which has some sort of social distancing? And what is in your opinon "some sort of social distancing"?


I am talking about my age group, 45 or younger, here in Florida currently the death rate for that group is 0.21% https://floridadisaster.org/globalasset ... 8-1639.pdf that's taking into account people who actually tested positive, I am sure many more of those who were asymptomatic and had very mild symptoms never went to test, I am sure that when its said and done it should be bellow 0.1%

Some sort of social distancing should be kept of course until a vaccine come out, but not a total and complete lock-down as we see currently today.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
speedking
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:00 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:52 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Jalap wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
There are all types of regulations, none of which would ever avoid risks. There are risks for almost anything in life,

Now there's a new high risk thing.
So there's need for new regulations.
New regulations -> decision needs to be made on how many deaths are acceptible. The more deaths are considered to be ok, the less regulation is needed. As it is with everything else in life.
And unlike with banning alcohol in traffic, with the corona measures you see effect as quickly as in 2 weeks. Hundreds of thousands of lives have been saved already. And this is chrystal clear with hard proof available.

Perhaps the confinement measures are the most effective measures ever taken to save lives. Worldwide.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
in fact, I can say something right that might endanger the life of others, yet I have freedom of expression that must be respected.

Is it legal to publicly say "Kill all jews!" in the USA? Or to publicly call for Jihad?
In Europe it isn't.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
can we hide for 18 months to avoid 'killing' ourselves as you mention? I might just die of hunger if I were to follow your perception because I would need to go to the store and buy food, but there I can get infected or infect someone else? till where would you allow the liberties and freedoms be infringed upon yourself? You might just starve to death if you follow strictly the rules that supposedly will avoid spreading corona virus.

It's clear all over the world that confinement measures that still allow visiting stores and running in the park result in a reproduction rate between 0,8 and 0,5. 8 or 10 weeks at this reproduction rate will allow to open up most of the country. The little virus that is left will still need to be monitored VERY carefully to avoid a second outbreak.

Any other approach will result in a reproduction rate higher that 1. A scenario that'll lead to full comtamination of the population. Then you'll still need to think about measures, to decide at what speed you want the whole population contaminated.
- You could try to keep it as low as possible till vaccine arrives. The Swedish approach. Time will tell how that turns out, but with a reproduction rate of close to 2, I hope for them that it doesn't take a year for the vaccine to arrive.
- You could choose for the old life with a reproduction rate of 4 or 5. Meaning the whole population is infected in only a few months and all is mostly over and done with in perhaps 6 months. Price of that freedom is a few millions of Americans dead.

In every scenario, there is a price to pay. What is the price you want to pay?


Again, we are seeing only one side of the equation.

We can keep this measures for 18 months, but are you taking into account the long term effects? the deaths as a result of depression, suicide, hunger, violence? Only seeing one side of the problem is what has led to this problem and is leading the world to an economic depression.

Hiding for 18 months until a vaccine comes out, its an unsustainable goal, anywhere. People will get infected, people will die, even if we try to keep this as long as we can. I agree we should keep those most vulnerable at home, those who are more prone to die, but those of us who only have a 0.1% or less chance of dying, should go on. In any case if you prefer to stay, you are also free to stay, but don't force me to accept house arrest for 18 months.


A vaccine might never come:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2020 ... r/12146616
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:07 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
Question? does anybody know where Dr. Deborah Birx gets her data from?


She gets the same data from the CDC and other state health departments and international sources as the other medical leaders in the country. Though she has specialized in HIV/AIDS, she has a much better background in understanding such data, the reliability factors behind such data, and the real world implications - than any of the political leadership of either party.

But - the interpretation of the raw data, the usage of models to make predictions is an 'art' not a true science. Two or more doctors/ experts can look at the same data, and have different interpretations/ views of the real world meaning of the data, and the future impact. Not that one is right and the other wrong, just one makes a better guess today, the other guess might be right in two days.

They are not evaluating a static situation, and they all know that they do NOT have real valid solid data as of today. Maybe not even accurate data as of two weeks ago.

As far as solutions, everyone seems focused on the number of tests available right now. Tests are important in discovering the true rate of spread, the real levels of infection, serious complications, or deaths. We have a lot of data as to the severely impacted groups, but this is not the FINAL word.

A lot of different factors go into making a workable plan to 'recover' from the virus impact upon the economy. Politicians are like the people they represent/ govern in many respects. They want a ONE MAGIC PILL solution. If we do X, everything will work out.

We all know the world doesn't run that way. But we, and our leaders, keep hoping for simple answers.

There are no simple answers.

Almost certainly some state is going to 'reopen', and the virus is going to spread massively with a great many sick, possibly dead. And almost certainly some states are going to open and the virus decreased in impact. There are no guarantees.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
N212R
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:31 pm

GDB wrote:
You have managed to say what I was planning to, though I would likely have been banned due to the extremely strong language used to express my utter contempt for these selfish, stupid idiots.
How to make it simple for idiots?
Maybe try to point out to them that if lockdown, which we all hate but actual grown ups (in attitude not age though most kids also seem to get it), are aware of how needed it is to save lives.

So if you exit it too soon, or ignore it, there will be another wave of the virus and guess what will happen again?
Hence why governments which are basically responsible, who are suffering great economic and increasing related social pressures too, are very cautious about lifting restrictions on social distancing.
As there might well be further waves of Covid, as similar virus strains have done, which also tend not to give long term immunity to those had already had it. Then guess what? Another lockdown. I would say more deaths but these protestors and really deep down, their idol Trump, do not care about that, or think somehow they are immune. Do they think a vaccine is imminent? Well it isn't.

Now that would ironic, another lockdown, all the economic problem that brings, right when the clown in the White House would fear it the most. In the fall of this year.


And what about those idiots who can't let a good crisis go to waste without playing needless politics?

Do you think it's ONLY Trump supporters among the "protesters" who want to get back to work?
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8576
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:53 pm

Some good insights from this Harvard modeling study. They warn that one-time strong quarantine efforts might simply create a later spike, which could actually be a worse spike, when quarantines are reduced.

https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/hand ... sAllowed=y
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6533
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:29 pm

What we’ve learned,

Top Ten Surprising Consequences of Covid-19 Hysteria:

1: Democrat governors rediscover federalism.
2: Wanna-be totalitarians can’t help but unmask themselves.
3: Trump gets a daily platform to smack the media around (watched by millions).
4: The CDC is exposed as just another dysfunctional gov. agency.
5: FDA, same as above.
6: WHO, same as FDA, CDC.
7: The US media is in China’s pocket.
8: “Models” completely useless except to frighten citizens.
9: We now know Nancy Pelosi has a $24,000.00 fridge and buys $12 pints (!) of ice cream.

And the 10th most surprising consequence of the Covid-19 hysteria? Donald Trump was right about China the whole time, and everybody who didn’t know it before knows it now.
 
art
Posts: 3597
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:53 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Hiding for 18 months until a vaccine comes out, its an unsustainable goal, anywhere..


I agree but I think that for people to return to economic activity there should be planning and observation. Lots of John Doe's deciding they want to return to work, want to return to going to cinema, sport, concerts, bars etc (or churches) as and when they will is not a planned approach to contending with this menace. A step by step, centrally planned approach to moving cautiously towards normal activity and measuring the results would allow analysis of the results of each step.

Let us assume that new infections have plateaued with the stay home regulations. If the result of a step easing some restrictions was (say) a 10% rise in infections after 30 days, that might be deemed acceptable. A 400% rise might not.

What seems very likely is that a decision to adopt a que sera sera approach would result in millions or tens of millions of infections in the US within a few weeks and very large numbers of Americans being unable to receive treatment due to demand for teatment far outstripping the capacity of the health system to provide treatment.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3877
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:10 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:

Your drunk driving comparison isn't valid. You take the risk every day if you drive of being hit by a drink driver. We don't require everyone to submit to a breath test before starting their car.


This is off topic but this could be a reality in the future especially as cars become more sophisticated. It might not be a breath test but some other means of testing your Blood Alcohol level because driving a car.

This is not a freedom that would be protected by the US constitution either because your supposed right to drive drunk puts others in danger. Just like your right to swing your fist ends at my face.

The flaw in libertarian thinking is that at the end of the day you must realize that you aren't special and the world doesn't just revolve around on person and this is a community effort. All things are and the idea of rugged individualism isn't going to work here.

ltbewr wrote:
To me many of the right wing protesters fear a slippery slope that if government can have such strict emergency orders, they might be able to take away their guns and property. Some on their side, as well as many liberals, also fear like China that you will have to be tracked on your cellphone, rat out friends and family who have symptoms. People across the political spectrum are jobless with no sight of a decent paying job for the many months, yet needing income for food, rent, other basic needs. Many businesses will be destroyed. Many made mistakes, dumb stuff happened, that common is such events.


It is unrealistic to shut down society forever over virus that does in all likelihood have a mortality rate of under 1%. This is based on places like Germany and Iceland that have been able to do mass testing and are identifying more people with covid19 than those that have symptoms enough to warrant a test. If this virus in fact cannot be vaccinated against or takes 3-4 years to develop then the libertarians are right and there will be civil unrest. There will be civil unrest if this goes pay the end of May in most democratic countries. Perhaps no sports with fans, concerts or music festivals and large gatherings like the 4th of July parades in 2020 but eventually these things will come back in 2021.

Furthermore if you force people inside in the summer months you are probably killing just as many people who have health issues and have no air conditioning. The 2003 French heatwave killed tens of thousands of people and we don't want that either.

We are likely going to have to ramp up testing and western nations are going to have to accept some degree of contact tracing for normal life to resume. Legislation needs to be passed to ensure that contact tracing for public health purposes are not misused by other parts of government which is what those in the US fear most of all. Me fear is law enforcement gets their hands on the data and probably would abuse it.

speedking wrote:
Aesma wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

It is sad so many people have to lose their lives to one of the biggest scam in this country. The worst part, most paid their own hard earned savings to die an unnecessary death.

I don;t know the logistics involved, but most of these people should have been moved to hospitals or homes rather than letting them die in bulk.


Nursing homes are cheap compared to the alternative. Unless you have a family member that can take care of you full time.

An uncle of mine has Parkinson's, he has the means to pay for 2 full time carers, good for him, most people certainly can't do that.


Nursing home Canadian style. 31 dead:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/16/worl ... virus.html

"Dehydrated residents lying listless in bed, unfed for days, with excrement seeping out of their diapers.."

A more humane and cheaper way to treat those people would have been a .44 Mag. (56¢/round)


The RCMP is investigating this and in Canada (and globally) it has revealed how vulnerable long term care homes are to a virus like this. There will likely be criminal charges applied here.

Poorly paid staff often forced to work a more than one facility, government cuts to this part of the healthcare system, and a lack of resources are all factors in at play here.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8576
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:25 pm

art wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Hiding for 18 months until a vaccine comes out, its an unsustainable goal, anywhere..


I agree but I think that for people to return to economic activity there should be planning and observation. Lots of John Doe's deciding they want to return to work, want to return to going to cinema, sport, concerts, bars etc (or churches) as and when they will is not a planned approach to contending with this menace. A step by step, centrally planned approach to moving cautiously towards normal activity and measuring the results would allow analysis of the results of each step.

Let us assume that new infections have plateaued with the stay home regulations. If the result of a step easing some restrictions was (say) a 10% rise in infections after 30 days, that might be deemed acceptable. A 400% rise might not.

What seems very likely is that a decision to adopt a que sera sera approach would result in millions or tens of millions of infections in the US within a few weeks and very large numbers of Americans being unable to receive treatment due to demand for teatment far outstripping the capacity of the health system to provide treatment.



Que será será won’t happen. Too many people are still worried, ie motivated, to continue social distancing even if it is at a reduced rate.

I’m not an epidemiologist, but I’m thinking reopening schools might be a good idea. This would also allow young parents to work more easily, including those parents that work in hospitals. And with summer coming around, that window to get younger people immunity before next fall/winter is closing.

It should still be done carefully, however. If someone at home has hypertension, don’t make them send their kids to school.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6533
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:52 pm

Starac17

The flaw in libertarian thinking is that at the end of the day you must realize that you aren't special and the world doesn't just revolve around on person and this is a community effort.


That’s not libertarian in the least, it’s selfish thinking. The core of libertarianism is “self-government”; self-discipline; knowing basic right from wrong. All individuals matter and they all matter equally. Duty and responsibility is the center of discipline, not “I have my rights”. Actually, much of America is responding that way right from the get-go. My little town, everyone wears a mask and have been for several weeks. Grandma would have told me to do so 50 years ago. It’s no surprise to me that the worst outbreaks are in self-centered cities where multitudes of other pathologies existed before—drug addictions, murders, crime and yes, Trump.
 
winginit
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:57 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
What we’ve learned,

Top Ten Surprising Consequences of Covid-19 Hysteria:

1: Democrat governors rediscover federalism.
2: Wanna-be totalitarians can’t help but unmask themselves.
3: Trump gets a daily platform to smack the media around (watched by millions).
4: The CDC is exposed as just another dysfunctional gov. agency.
5: FDA, same as above.
6: WHO, same as FDA, CDC.
7: The US media is in China’s pocket.
8: “Models” completely useless except to frighten citizens.
9: We now know Nancy Pelosi has a $24,000.00 fridge and buys $12 pints (!) of ice cream.

And the 10th most surprising consequence of the Covid-19 hysteria? Donald Trump was right about China the whole time, and everybody who didn’t know it before knows it now.


Oooh! What a fun game! Don't forget the part where Republicans fully embrace socialism via welfare programs and no longer care, as if they did before, about how to pay for literally anything while the fed prints money willy nilly. How fun! Oh and if we're still looking at double digit unemployment come November? #11 will be "Donald Trump loses the election".

AirWorthy99 wrote:
In any case if you prefer to stay, you are also free to stay, but don't force me to accept house arrest for 18 months.


The "house arrest" language is genuinely hilarious to me. There is not a single state, not one, in America where you aren't allowed to go for a walk, get some exercise, grab take out from a restaurant, get your car or bicycle fixed, and so on and so forth.

You either seem to have a woeful understanding of what "house arrest" is or you're very much misinterpreting the orders that you yourself are under.
Last edited by winginit on Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2715
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:05 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/new-study-questions-the-effectiveness-of-masks-against-sars-cov-2

This is not the final word on masks, only one study. It does raise serious questions about homemade and surgical masks and the covid-19 virus.


No kidding. Not to mention people who wear masks are touching their face constantly and the simple cloth ones are just going to harbor bacteria. Masks are either made for one use or they should be washed after every use. We all know the majority of people are not going to do that. A mask simply gives people the illusion of safety and being in control.
 
winginit
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:16 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/new-study-questions-the-effectiveness-of-masks-against-sars-cov-2

This is not the final word on masks, only one study. It does raise serious questions about homemade and surgical masks and the covid-19 virus.


No kidding. Not to mention people who wear masks are touching their face constantly and the simple cloth ones are just going to harbor bacteria. Masks are either made for one use or they should be washed after every use. We all know the majority of people are not going to do that. A mask simply gives people the illusion of safety and being in control.


Which is why, again, as has been messaged over and over and over, the mask orders in the United States are only an enforceable requirement when social distancing is not possible. To be clear, in Los Angeles, or in New York, you are fully capable and able to walk out side or go for a run or what have you without a mask. However, inside a store where six feet of social distancing is not possible, you have to wear a mask.

Honestly this isn't complicated, nor is it some sort of crazy big brother infraction of rights.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8576
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:39 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/new-study-questions-the-effectiveness-of-masks-against-sars-cov-2

This is not the final word on masks, only one study. It does raise serious questions about homemade and surgical masks and the covid-19 virus.


A mostly useless study, no? Who here thought that masks prevented, ie stopped/filtered 100%, of anything? Even N95 masks only guarantee 95%.

But it still matters that a reduced amount of virus escapes through the mask.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
yonahleung
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:55 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:51 pm

PPVRA wrote:
Some good insights from this Harvard modeling study. They warn that one-time strong quarantine efforts might simply create a later spike, which could actually be a worse spike, when quarantines are reduced.

https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/hand ... sAllowed=y

As someone from Hong Kong my advice is still: mask up everyone. We have been saying this since February and the cost is so low that I don't see why there is so much reluctance. Yes, life cannot return to normal for some time but you can have business operating when everyone wears a mask. In Hong Kong everyone wears a surgical mask when we are outside our home (no legislation mandating so but we distrust our government so much that everyone wears one anyway) and we have less than 5 infections per day now when the imported cases died down. If people does not wear masks it will become like Singapore, they have even more drastic social distancing measures than Hong Kong do but they did not advise people to wear masks until last week. The result: they are having more than 500 infections per day now with two-thirds of the population of Hong Kong and have to enter full lockdown.

In Hong Kong there was never a full lockdown, quite a few of us work from home but shops and offices can operate more or less as usual if they wish. Nevermind the science behind and let the scientists debate whether it is 50%,70% or 95% effective. But the experience in Hong Kong I think is clear that with strict quarantine requirements, contact tracing and mask wearing, we do not need drastic social distancing measures which suffocates our economy.
 
yonahleung
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:55 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:56 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/new-study-questions-the-effectiveness-of-masks-against-sars-cov-2

This is not the final word on masks, only one study. It does raise serious questions about homemade and surgical masks and the covid-19 virus.


No kidding. Not to mention people who wear masks are touching their face constantly and the simple cloth ones are just going to harbor bacteria. Masks are either made for one use or they should be washed after every use. We all know the majority of people are not going to do that. A mask simply gives people the illusion of safety and being in control.

This line of argument is basically...because someone would misuse condoms so we should not advise people to use condoms at all...
If people would touch their face constantly, teach them not to is the simple answer.
It is a bit ridiculous to suggest that after wearing a mask you would somehow magically feel obliged to touch your face often.
Just try wearing a mask in a safe environment (e.g. you home) and see how it feels before coming to any judgment.
Masks come in many different sizes and cutting (like a condom) and if you feel uncomfortable the problem may be that you have picked the wrong size.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2715
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:10 pm

yonahleung wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/new-study-questions-the-effectiveness-of-masks-against-sars-cov-2

This is not the final word on masks, only one study. It does raise serious questions about homemade and surgical masks and the covid-19 virus.


No kidding. Not to mention people who wear masks are touching their face constantly and the simple cloth ones are just going to harbor bacteria. Masks are either made for one use or they should be washed after every use. We all know the majority of people are not going to do that. A mask simply gives people the illusion of safety and being in control.

This line of argument is basically...because someone would misuse condoms so we should not advise people to use condoms at all...
If people would touch their face constantly, teach them not to is the simple answer.
It is a bit ridiculous to suggest that after wearing a mask you would somehow magically feel obliged to touch your face often.
Just try wearing a mask in a safe environment (e.g. you home) and see how it feels before coming to any judgment.
Masks come in many different sizes and cutting (like a condom) and if you feel uncomfortable the problem may be that you have picked the wrong size.


I don't want a society where masks become normal. I find it very unsettling. If your immune system is that compromised then you shouldn't be put. My grandmother is in her 80's and can probably out run most in their 30's. She would laugh for an hour if you told her she had to start wearing a mask.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6268
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:34 pm

[
TTailedTiger wrote:
My grandmother is in her 80's and can probably out run most in their 30's. She would laugh for an hour if you told her she had to start wearing a mask.


Being able to outrun people 50 years younger than her does not make your grandma totally immune from getting infected and does not mean anything to her ability to spread the infection further by droplets. Laughing is fine, sometimes a deeper thought is also very helpful.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2715
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:46 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
[
TTailedTiger wrote:
My grandmother is in her 80's and can probably out run most in their 30's. She would laugh for an hour if you told her she had to start wearing a mask.


Being able to outrun people 50 years younger than her does not make your grandma totally immune from getting infected and does not mean anything to her ability to spread the infection further by droplets. Laughing is fine, sometimes a deeper thought is also very helpful.


Well here's my thought. This sounds like social engineering. Have you ever read Harrison Bergeron? Making everyone wear masks is a big step to making everyone conform.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19305
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:29 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
[
TTailedTiger wrote:
My grandmother is in her 80's and can probably out run most in their 30's. She would laugh for an hour if you told her she had to start wearing a mask.


Being able to outrun people 50 years younger than her does not make your grandma totally immune from getting infected and does not mean anything to her ability to spread the infection further by droplets. Laughing is fine, sometimes a deeper thought is also very helpful.


Well here's my thought. This sounds like social engineering. Have you ever read Harrison Bergeron? Making everyone wear masks is a big step to making everyone conform.


Tinfoil hat restock on aisle seven, tinfoil hat restock aisle seven! :sarcastic:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
hashtagconfused
Posts: 67
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:11 pm

how much responsibility should land on the individual governors of each state in situations like this? or even local city government? if they are each individually prepared for their own needs that should lessen the overall impact of shortness of supplies and such, right?
 
Jalap
Posts: 647
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:25 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Hiding for 18 months until a vaccine comes out, its an unsustainable goal, anywhere. People will get infected, people will die, even if we try to keep this as long as we can. I agree we should keep those most vulnerable at home, those who are more prone to die, but those of us who only have a 0.1% or less chance of dying, should go on. In any case if you prefer to stay, you are also free to stay, but don't force me to accept house arrest for 18 months.

So confinement for all the elderly, people with illness, obese people, ... . That pretty much applies for half the population. What about their civil liberties?
Rules are fun, as long as they apply to others.

And why 18 months? After 10 weeks of confinement (for al non-essential stuff) with a disciplined population most of the virus would be gone. What is left can probably be monitored and handled with selective confinement if infections show up.

Discipline is key. If a population isn't disciplined, then, well, yes 18 months is possible.
 
winginit
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:39 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
[
TTailedTiger wrote:
My grandmother is in her 80's and can probably out run most in their 30's. She would laugh for an hour if you told her she had to start wearing a mask.


Being able to outrun people 50 years younger than her does not make your grandma totally immune from getting infected and does not mean anything to her ability to spread the infection further by droplets. Laughing is fine, sometimes a deeper thought is also very helpful.


Well here's my thought. This sounds like social engineering. Have you ever read Harrison Bergeron? Making everyone wear masks is a big step to making everyone conform.


You're acting like it's new and/or permanent. Neither are true. There is precedent in this country for mandating masks to prevent the spread of flu, and per Supreme Court precedent we should and likely will also enforce vaccination when that day comes. Can't wait for those protests tin hats and all.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2715
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:55 pm

winginit wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
[

Being able to outrun people 50 years younger than her does not make your grandma totally immune from getting infected and does not mean anything to her ability to spread the infection further by droplets. Laughing is fine, sometimes a deeper thought is also very helpful.


Well here's my thought. This sounds like social engineering. Have you ever read Harrison Bergeron? Making everyone wear masks is a big step to making everyone conform.


You're acting like it's new and/or permanent. Neither are true. There is precedent in this country for mandating masks to prevent the spread of flu, and per Supreme Court precedent we should and likely will also enforce vaccination when that day comes. Can't wait for those protests tin hats and all.


A court case from 1905. Oh my. Rulings get bounced all the time. Look at how Roe v Wade has even been eroded over time. We are more connected and have a louder voice now.

We will refuse to look like China. They've worn masks in public for decades and it didn't stop this virus from making them I'll.
 
winginit
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:04 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
winginit wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Well here's my thought. This sounds like social engineering. Have you ever read Harrison Bergeron? Making everyone wear masks is a big step to making everyone conform.


You're acting like it's new and/or permanent. Neither are true. There is precedent in this country for mandating masks to prevent the spread of flu, and per Supreme Court precedent we should and likely will also enforce vaccination when that day comes. Can't wait for those protests tin hats and all.


A court case from 1905. Oh my. Rulings get bounced all the time. Look at how Roe v Wade has even been eroded over time. We are more connected and have a louder voice now.

We will refuse to look like China. They've worn masks in public for decades and it didn't stop this virus from making them I'll.


Ah yes just a little old court case from 1905. Said differently, Supreme Court precedent that has been cited hundreds of times since then as precedent.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8479
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:30 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
I don't want a society where masks become normal. I find it very unsettling. If your immune system is that compromised then you shouldn't be put. My grandmother is in her 80's and can probably out run most in their 30's. She would laugh for an hour if you told her she had to start wearing a mask.


Aren't they already normal in PRC?

Why are nuts banned in every school? Why should kids without allergies are forced not to bring/eat anything nuts? We are living in that world.

It is impossible to depend on self-immunity, particularly in the west.

Face coverings AKA masks may not filter every 0.3 micron particle, but they will reduce the dosage, so hope is self-immunity may fight off low dose.

Try to run a Vaccum Cleaner without filter/filter bag, see how long it lasts. Face covering serves the same purpose for the dual vaccum called nose.
All posts are just opinions.

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