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LCDFlight
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:15 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Its going to take a lot of time to test the entire population 300+ million plus, let alone serology tests.

I suggest, like I mentioned millions of times, those who are vulnerable or at risk, should stay put. The rest of us, use common sense, avoid gathering with too many people etc, work from home those that can, use internet for ordering food and delivery like we do now, etc.

Why can't we use the Swedish method? What's wrong with that method? UK, France and many other nations that don't have the Swedish method have higher deaths per capita than Sweden.


Probably not a good idea to use the Swedish approach. Norway has a similar population density and is faring much better.

Image

Your suggestion is epidemiologically inadequate because we don't know exactly who is vulnerable or at risk. And for people to feel secure, they need good information as flare-ups occur, and the tracking needs to be on-point so we don't needlessly re-shutdown places that have reopened. Testing is the way to provide that.

Interesting that you mention time for testing. If there was a SERIOUS mobilization effort (which would require serious and focused government leadership), I saw a model where it is quite possible to test up to 250 million people in just two weeks once the antibody serology test is available, in combination with the COVID infection test already available of course. For the Apollo program, we were able to mobilize 400,000 engineers and technicians across hundreds of companies in the Moon effort - this mobilization would need to be similar, employing university and private sector resources. To test 250m people in two weeks, you'd need to figure on roughly 17.8m completed tests per day, and at a rate of 60 tests per/technician would require ~295K trained testing staff to administer. Add in the manpower for processing the results, and you'd need another 100K people at least. There are a lot of health professionals already qualified to administer and process serology tests, so it's really just a matter of ramping this type of program up when the test is ready. That would bring tremendous peace of mind to the public as things re-open.


One thing for certain about COVID19, we know almost nothing. The Swedes are building herd immunity, that's their strategy. Perhaps they are taking a big hit now, but a few months down the road to a year, they stop dramatically the deaths once everyone got COVID, no need to wait for a vaccine. Whereas with the current system, we are all hiding from COVID19, we will continuously get deaths until we get a vaccine. We don't know. And maybe down the road we will say that the Swedes were right or wrong, and the rest of the world right or wrong.

But considering they have schools open, have restaurants open, parks etc, and the deaths per capita are lower than Spain, France and the UK, tells me they are getting a hit now which seems rather low with the amount of things working normally, compared to the rest of the countries and with the measures they have enforced.


I tend to agree. There is a cognitive / media bias against tolerating 20 deaths right now, even if it saves 2,000 deaths later. Coronavirus is a significant public health threat, but we tolerate significant public health threats (obesity, alcohol, traffic) constantly. These can all be reduced if we submit to police regulation of food intake, for example. If police compelled people to exercise, that would help too. But we don't, because it isn't important enough. And those are leading causes of death. People willingly make this tradeoff for reasons of personal freedom and work.

The "shelter at home" thing is not proven to prevent full infection over a 1 year period. Which incidentally is still the mainstream prediction. So... the benefit of shelter at home is to manage the ICU capacity factor. Nothing else has any scientific claim or basis AFAIK. And the cost is... indescribable. A vast loss of tens of millions of human working lives. That is a human tragedy too. Communities have been destroyed.

Professionals in US / EU are among the last who will face real economic vulnerability / starvation, and they tend to be older in years. Western affluent professionals are biased personally, as to the tradeoff between public health effects of the virus (which affect them disproportionately) versus the global economy (which affects poor people disproportionately). The main factor affecting the public health of global poor people is not Coronavirus, but the global economy.
 
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Pellegrine
Posts: 2482
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:01 am

LCDFlight wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Probably not a good idea to use the Swedish approach. Norway has a similar population density and is faring much better.

Image

Your suggestion is epidemiologically inadequate because we don't know exactly who is vulnerable or at risk. And for people to feel secure, they need good information as flare-ups occur, and the tracking needs to be on-point so we don't needlessly re-shutdown places that have reopened. Testing is the way to provide that.

Interesting that you mention time for testing. If there was a SERIOUS mobilization effort (which would require serious and focused government leadership), I saw a model where it is quite possible to test up to 250 million people in just two weeks once the antibody serology test is available, in combination with the COVID infection test already available of course. For the Apollo program, we were able to mobilize 400,000 engineers and technicians across hundreds of companies in the Moon effort - this mobilization would need to be similar, employing university and private sector resources. To test 250m people in two weeks, you'd need to figure on roughly 17.8m completed tests per day, and at a rate of 60 tests per/technician would require ~295K trained testing staff to administer. Add in the manpower for processing the results, and you'd need another 100K people at least. There are a lot of health professionals already qualified to administer and process serology tests, so it's really just a matter of ramping this type of program up when the test is ready. That would bring tremendous peace of mind to the public as things re-open.


One thing for certain about COVID19, we know almost nothing. The Swedes are building herd immunity, that's their strategy. Perhaps they are taking a big hit now, but a few months down the road to a year, they stop dramatically the deaths once everyone got COVID, no need to wait for a vaccine. Whereas with the current system, we are all hiding from COVID19, we will continuously get deaths until we get a vaccine. We don't know. And maybe down the road we will say that the Swedes were right or wrong, and the rest of the world right or wrong.

But considering they have schools open, have restaurants open, parks etc, and the deaths per capita are lower than Spain, France and the UK, tells me they are getting a hit now which seems rather low with the amount of things working normally, compared to the rest of the countries and with the measures they have enforced.


I tend to agree. There is a cognitive / media bias against tolerating 20 deaths right now, even if it saves 2,000 deaths later. Coronavirus is a significant public health threat, but we tolerate significant public health threats (obesity, alcohol, traffic) constantly. These can all be reduced if we submit to police regulation of food intake, for example. If police compelled people to exercise, that would help too. But we don't, because it isn't important enough. And those are leading causes of death. People willingly make this tradeoff for reasons of personal freedom and work.

The "shelter at home" thing is not proven to prevent full infection over a 1 year period. Which incidentally is still the mainstream prediction. So... the benefit of shelter at home is to manage the ICU capacity factor. Nothing else has any scientific claim or basis AFAIK. And the cost is... indescribable. A vast loss of tens of millions of human working lives. That is a human tragedy too. Communities have been destroyed.

Professionals in US / EU are among the last who will face real economic vulnerability / starvation, and they tend to be older in years. Western affluent professionals are biased personally, as to the tradeoff between public health effects of the virus (which affect them disproportionately) versus the global economy (which affects poor people disproportionately). The main factor affecting the public health of global poor people is not Coronavirus, but the global economy.



Then why don't you volunteer on the front lines? Why don't you volunteer to go to work and die. For what? An economy? Ok. Call your employer now. Go ahead and go. Thank god I did not take an oath. I'd leave your ass outside the hospital after the ambulance dropped you off. Just kick your ass into the marigolds and tell you go back to your employer since you love it there so much.

I know rich tech professionals on both coasts who have relinquished their work and gone to EMT class because they said they couldn't stand by and watch people die. Including people on this website. Get your ass in gear and go help somebody, or STFU and get the hell out of here with that BS.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:09 am

SierraPacific wrote:
I do have a question for those who are proponents of keeping the economy closed indefinitely or until cases hit a certain metric, what happens when hospital systems go under from lack of revenue? Here in Arizona, we are currently furloughing healthcare workers and support services at practically every hospital and it is only getting worse every day. We are rapidly (within the next couple of weeks) reaching catastrophic levels of economic damage.

This just simply isn't sustainable for months or even weeks


In my opinion some medical activities should be restarted, with care of course and looking at the COVID picture all along.

It's not even an economic issue, but a health issue.

The same thing is happening in France.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
IgorD
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:16 am

art wrote:
That is encouraging to hear. Very crudely, and very speculatively, if 5% of donors were infected in February and subsequently recovered, it might take a year or less to hit herd immunity levels. That would be a big help in contending with this virus if the population cannot be innoculated with an effective vaccine within a year.


That’s right, and not only the speed of spread is important (and by implication, the level of immunity in the population).

I consider these data to be very relevant for the actions on public health and lockdown. If it follows that infection mortality rate is around 0,4% (as we’ve seen a couple of days ago in a German study), the public health actions should be different to those if the mortality were 2%.

If mortality rate is indeed smaller than 0,5% (and this is a large IF), coupled with the situation in the nursery houses (at least 50% of the Dutch nursery houses are already infected with the virus), the rationale behind lockdown would become less evident. In other words, with the current policies we’ve failed to protect those who need it most, on the other hand, there is a question whether the closure of the economy is worth the damage to the overall population.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:06 am

Pellegrine wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

One thing for certain about COVID19, we know almost nothing. The Swedes are building herd immunity, that's their strategy. Perhaps they are taking a big hit now, but a few months down the road to a year, they stop dramatically the deaths once everyone got COVID, no need to wait for a vaccine. Whereas with the current system, we are all hiding from COVID19, we will continuously get deaths until we get a vaccine. We don't know. And maybe down the road we will say that the Swedes were right or wrong, and the rest of the world right or wrong.

But considering they have schools open, have restaurants open, parks etc, and the deaths per capita are lower than Spain, France and the UK, tells me they are getting a hit now which seems rather low with the amount of things working normally, compared to the rest of the countries and with the measures they have enforced.


I tend to agree. There is a cognitive / media bias against tolerating 20 deaths right now, even if it saves 2,000 deaths later. Coronavirus is a significant public health threat, but we tolerate significant public health threats (obesity, alcohol, traffic) constantly. These can all be reduced if we submit to police regulation of food intake, for example. If police compelled people to exercise, that would help too. But we don't, because it isn't important enough. And those are leading causes of death. People willingly make this tradeoff for reasons of personal freedom and work.

The "shelter at home" thing is not proven to prevent full infection over a 1 year period. Which incidentally is still the mainstream prediction. So... the benefit of shelter at home is to manage the ICU capacity factor. Nothing else has any scientific claim or basis AFAIK. And the cost is... indescribable. A vast loss of tens of millions of human working lives. That is a human tragedy too. Communities have been destroyed.

Professionals in US / EU are among the last who will face real economic vulnerability / starvation, and they tend to be older in years. Western affluent professionals are biased personally, as to the tradeoff between public health effects of the virus (which affect them disproportionately) versus the global economy (which affects poor people disproportionately). The main factor affecting the public health of global poor people is not Coronavirus, but the global economy.



Then why don't you volunteer on the front lines? Why don't you volunteer to go to work and die. For what? An economy? Ok. Call your employer now. Go ahead and go. Thank god I did not take an oath. I'd leave your ass outside the hospital after the ambulance dropped you off. Just kick your ass into the marigolds and tell you go back to your employer since you love it there so much.

I know rich tech professionals on both coasts who have relinquished their work and gone to EMT class because they said they couldn't stand by and watch people die. Including people on this website. Get your ass in gear and go help somebody, or STFU and get the hell out of here with that BS.


Thanks for your post. I don't blame you for being angry. It's clear that you mean well. But your attitude is hurting people. Especially the poor and vulnerable.

I quoted tens of millions, but it's really hundreds of millions lifted out of poverty - not by the Gates Foundation, not by the WHO nor the World Food Programme. Business and trade did that. People are eating well today not because of CHARITY, but because they are EARNING a living. Far more powerful. Saved more lives.

Those hospitals you mentioned? Where did the money come from to build them? How would they even operate more than a month or two, without business to bankroll them? (the current situation answers that - they cannot. They will close down soon.) The attitude of Sovietization has killed more people than any other idea in the 20th century. The 21st century is young. Yes, I shared with you that I would be in favor of more of an open situation, wider exposures, including myself, of course. This public decision will incur some deaths, just as our tolerance of obesity causes deaths. That tolerance is a choice, if we are into a zero personal liberty twilight zone.

Why would I go to EMT class - I am 100% busy in another role where I am more skilled. The hospitals around me are the emptiest they have been in decades. All the doctors I know are sitting at home, on furlough. Since few non-emergency appointments and zero elective surgeries are happening.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:35 am

tommy1808 wrote:
In the mean time, the Whitehouse asked Taiwan for Masks mid March, while telling the public they don't need masks. That also tells us the PPE situation was so dire that even the WH couldn't source any in the US, despite the public statements to the contrary they could not have possibly missed they couldn't get any themselves.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

WP wrote:
That was a lesson learned. We did look at buying some, but couldn’t find available supply.


Best regards
Thomas


If you do a little bit research
In January there were estimated 100 Million masks in the commercial distribution centers in the country, Plenty for few months. WH and 3M probably though no worries.
But they didn't expect PLA shell companies would purchase 76 Million and Diagou will empty all store shelves between Jan and Feb. By March US PPE supply was in crisis.

Probably WH thought Americans were buying and hoarding these masks, hence the masks won't work negative campaign.
Trump probably thought 3M was disgraceful and exported to make a quick buck. DPA was invoked, 3M agreed to supply 165 Million in 3 months.

I think PLA and Daigou manipulated American free market system.

WH has less than 4000 employees, drop in a bucket considering what country needs.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:41 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:

I tend to agree. There is a cognitive / media bias against tolerating 20 deaths right now, even if it saves 2,000 deaths later. Coronavirus is a significant public health threat, but we tolerate significant public health threats (obesity, alcohol, traffic) constantly. These can all be reduced if we submit to police regulation of food intake, for example. If police compelled people to exercise, that would help too. But we don't, because it isn't important enough. And those are leading causes of death. People willingly make this tradeoff for reasons of personal freedom and work.

The "shelter at home" thing is not proven to prevent full infection over a 1 year period. Which incidentally is still the mainstream prediction. So... the benefit of shelter at home is to manage the ICU capacity factor. Nothing else has any scientific claim or basis AFAIK. And the cost is... indescribable. A vast loss of tens of millions of human working lives. That is a human tragedy too. Communities have been destroyed.

Professionals in US / EU are among the last who will face real economic vulnerability / starvation, and they tend to be older in years. Western affluent professionals are biased personally, as to the tradeoff between public health effects of the virus (which affect them disproportionately) versus the global economy (which affects poor people disproportionately). The main factor affecting the public health of global poor people is not Coronavirus, but the global economy.



Then why don't you volunteer on the front lines? Why don't you volunteer to go to work and die. For what? An economy? Ok. Call your employer now. Go ahead and go. Thank god I did not take an oath. I'd leave your ass outside the hospital after the ambulance dropped you off. Just kick your ass into the marigolds and tell you go back to your employer since you love it there so much.

I know rich tech professionals on both coasts who have relinquished their work and gone to EMT class because they said they couldn't stand by and watch people die. Including people on this website. Get your ass in gear and go help somebody, or STFU and get the hell out of here with that BS.


Thanks for your post. I don't blame you for being angry. It's clear that you mean well. But your attitude is hurting people. Especially the poor and vulnerable.

I quoted tens of millions, but it's really hundreds of millions lifted out of poverty - not by the Gates Foundation, not by the WHO nor the World Food Programme. Business and trade did that. People are eating well today not because of CHARITY, but because they are EARNING a living. Far more powerful. Saved more lives.

Those hospitals you mentioned? Where did the money come from to build them? How would they even operate more than a month or two, without business to bankroll them? (the current situation answers that - they cannot. They will close down soon.) The attitude of Sovietization has killed more people than any other idea in the 20th century. The 21st century is young. Yes, I shared with you that I would be in favor of more of an open situation, wider exposures, including myself, of course. This public decision will incur some deaths, just as our tolerance of obesity causes deaths. That tolerance is a choice, if we are into a zero personal liberty twilight zone.

Why would I go to EMT class - I am 100% busy in another role where I am more skilled. The hospitals around me are the emptiest they have been in decades. All the doctors I know are sitting at home, on furlough. Since few non-emergency appointments and zero elective surgeries are happening.



You know what, I respect you for replying, Maybe i am fucking angry. A lot of us have been working hard. But to me, I see these callous posts...and I'm like...have you ever been in an ICU? Have you been in a step-down ward? Have you taken care of a post-ICU patient who is experiencing delerium? Last year my father was in ICU for 5 months...not cornavirus...but on a ventilator, the same...it's very hard. People think it's so easy and it's not. These people need medium-term care and support...and after someone is on a vent for a week+ they are not the same.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1105
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:50 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

One thing for certain about COVID19, we know almost nothing. The Swedes are building herd immunity, that's their strategy. Perhaps they are taking a big hit now, but a few months down the road to a year, they stop dramatically the deaths once everyone got COVID, no need to wait for a vaccine. Whereas with the current system, we are all hiding from COVID19, we will continuously get deaths until we get a vaccine. We don't know. And maybe down the road we will say that the Swedes were right or wrong, and the rest of the world right or wrong.

But considering they have schools open, have restaurants open, parks etc, and the deaths per capita are lower than Spain, France and the UK, tells me they are getting a hit now which seems rather low with the amount of things working normally, compared to the rest of the countries and with the measures they have enforced.


I tend to agree. There is a cognitive / media bias against tolerating 20 deaths right now, even if it saves 2,000 deaths later. Coronavirus is a significant public health threat, but we tolerate significant public health threats (obesity, alcohol, traffic) constantly. These can all be reduced if we submit to police regulation of food intake, for example. If police compelled people to exercise, that would help too. But we don't, because it isn't important enough. And those are leading causes of death. People willingly make this tradeoff for reasons of personal freedom and work.

The "shelter at home" thing is not proven to prevent full infection over a 1 year period. Which incidentally is still the mainstream prediction. So... the benefit of shelter at home is to manage the ICU capacity factor. Nothing else has any scientific claim or basis AFAIK. And the cost is... indescribable. A vast loss of tens of millions of human working lives. That is a human tragedy too. Communities have been destroyed.

Professionals in US / EU are among the last who will face real economic vulnerability / starvation, and they tend to be older in years. Western affluent professionals are biased personally, as to the tradeoff between public health effects of the virus (which affect them disproportionately) versus the global economy (which affects poor people disproportionately). The main factor affecting the public health of global poor people is not Coronavirus, but the global economy.



Then why don't you volunteer on the front lines? Why don't you volunteer to go to work and die. For what? An economy? Ok. Call your employer now. Go ahead and go. Thank god I did not take an oath. I'd leave your ass outside the hospital after the ambulance dropped you off. Just kick your ass into the marigolds and tell you go back to your employer since you love it there so much.

I know rich tech professionals on both coasts who have relinquished their work and gone to EMT class because they said they couldn't stand by and watch people die. Including people on this website. Get your ass in gear and go help somebody, or STFU and get the hell out of here with that BS.


First thing, I haven't heard of non-medical people volunteering here in the US at ICU facilities. Haven't, but in any case.

You are very right to feel angry about this crisis, but you are only getting angry from the medical point of view. Not from the point of view of millions of people that overnight lost their jobs, their livelyhoods, and can't feed their children or pay for their housing. I know many say the government should provide, but that's impossible, the government has finite amount of resources.

In any case if we use the same thing you say, are you willing to volunteer part of your salary for those who are in need? are you willing to take in people to live at your home, those who can't pay their housing because of this crisis? are you willing to feed people who are going hungry because of this? Your response may be no, the government should do, well, we can respond the same way to your calling.

Seeing one side of the problem is not fair, considering there are more people hurting that don't have COVID19, than those who have COVID19. If 30 million people lose their jobs, they got kids, you can almost certainly get to 100 million people. That's the amount of people hurting right now, compared to the hundreds of thousands that are COVID positive.

I know ICU facilities are difficult places to be, I was there for weeks for a close family member that was in ICU few years back. But that's part of their job, that's part of life. That family member died, and yes death is part of life too.

If you don't want to go out, don't go out. And don't expect the government to find a solution to all of the problems this crisis is creating. Most of us don't want government in our lives, that's also something many people should respect.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:59 pm

Aesma wrote:
Image


Very soon those types of graphs will be replaced with these types of graphs:

Image

There is going to be a huge casualty as a result of this.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:18 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Take it as you wish. Quite possible if you think about it.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/corona ... us-sources

I'm actually glad Trump is putting pressure on WHO. Somebody might crack in there and spill some beans.


Uh oh, this is going mainstream. I know Fox news is not a 'serious' source for some here, so I will quote CNN for them.

US intelligence and national security officials say the United States government is looking into the possibility that the novel coronavirus originated in a Chinese laboratory rather than a market, according to multiple sources familiar with the matter who caution it is premature to draw any conclusions.
The theory is one of multiple being pursued by investigators as they attempt to determine the origin of the coronavirus that has resulted in a pandemic and killed hundreds of thousands. The US does not believe the virus was associated with bioweapons research, and officials noted that the intelligence community is also exploring a range of other theories regarding the origination of the virus, as would typically be the case for high-profile incidents, according to an intelligence source.
The theory has been pushed by supporters of the President, including some congressional Republicans, who are eager to deflect criticisms of Trump's handling of the pandemic.
An intelligence official familiar with the government analysis said a theory US intelligence officials are investigating is that the virus originated in a laboratory in Wuhan, China, and was accidentally released to the public. Other sources told CNN that US intelligence hasn't been able to corroborate the theory but is trying to discern whether someone was infected in the lab through an accident or poor handling of materials and may have then infected others.


https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/15/politics ... index.html
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Tugger
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:51 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Take it as you wish. Quite possible if you think about it.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/corona ... us-sources

I'm actually glad Trump is putting pressure on WHO. Somebody might crack in there and spill some beans.


Uh oh, this is going mainstream. I know Fox news is not a 'serious' source for some here, so I will quote CNN for them.

US intelligence and national security officials say the United States government is looking into the possibility that the novel coronavirus originated in a Chinese laboratory rather than a market, according to multiple sources familiar with the matter who caution it is premature to draw any conclusions.
The theory is one of multiple being pursued by investigators as they attempt to determine the origin of the coronavirus that has resulted in a pandemic and killed hundreds of thousands. The US does not believe the virus was associated with bioweapons research, and officials noted that the intelligence community is also exploring a range of other theories regarding the origination of the virus, as would typically be the case for high-profile incidents, according to an intelligence source.
The theory has been pushed by supporters of the President, including some congressional Republicans, who are eager to deflect criticisms of Trump's handling of the pandemic.
An intelligence official familiar with the government analysis said a theory US intelligence officials are investigating is that the virus originated in a laboratory in Wuhan, China, and was accidentally released to the public. Other sources told CNN that US intelligence hasn't been able to corroborate the theory but is trying to discern whether someone was infected in the lab through an accident or poor handling of materials and may have then infected others.


https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/15/politics ... index.html

Yes, it is being investigated. That is why I question those that think it is "lab created" when it is being actively looked into and yet, to date, there is no evidence that it is in fact man-made.

So the point is?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
PixelPilot
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:58 pm

Tugger wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Take it as you wish. Quite possible if you think about it.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/corona ... us-sources

I'm actually glad Trump is putting pressure on WHO. Somebody might crack in there and spill some beans.


Uh oh, this is going mainstream. I know Fox news is not a 'serious' source for some here, so I will quote CNN for them.

US intelligence and national security officials say the United States government is looking into the possibility that the novel coronavirus originated in a Chinese laboratory rather than a market, according to multiple sources familiar with the matter who caution it is premature to draw any conclusions.
The theory is one of multiple being pursued by investigators as they attempt to determine the origin of the coronavirus that has resulted in a pandemic and killed hundreds of thousands. The US does not believe the virus was associated with bioweapons research, and officials noted that the intelligence community is also exploring a range of other theories regarding the origination of the virus, as would typically be the case for high-profile incidents, according to an intelligence source.
The theory has been pushed by supporters of the President, including some congressional Republicans, who are eager to deflect criticisms of Trump's handling of the pandemic.
An intelligence official familiar with the government analysis said a theory US intelligence officials are investigating is that the virus originated in a laboratory in Wuhan, China, and was accidentally released to the public. Other sources told CNN that US intelligence hasn't been able to corroborate the theory but is trying to discern whether someone was infected in the lab through an accident or poor handling of materials and may have then infected others.


https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/15/politics ... index.html

Yes, it is being investigated. That is why I question those that think it is "lab created" when it is being actively looked into and yet, to date, there is no evidence that it is in fact man-made.

So the point is?

Tugg


Well, technically lab created doesn't mean man made. I think this is the whole difference that is causing the argument. Semantics pretty much which can benefit / tank the narrative.
I believe that science and law are very specific as to which words are used for that particular reason.
If somebody was infected there and that's how it spread I would call it man made disaster but for the process of developing the thing they could have just let the bats or whatever do their thing for ages while only taking samples and not interfering with it. That's man controlled environment but technically not a a man-made creation. More like man influenced.
You know just like animals in Zoo, just this time you mix the ones that are known to carry some pretty crazy stuff in them and then just take samples.
Last edited by PixelPilot on Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
PixelPilot
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:04 pm

Also FOX posted the timeline of cov reactions.
I'm sure few from Trump are missing but my point is nobody is perfect in this and I wish people would realize that.
Back in the day they would sit together and fix the problem, now the glory means to shit on the opposition. Childish from all sides.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/from-n ... -aged-well
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:12 pm

Tugger wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Take it as you wish. Quite possible if you think about it.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/corona ... us-sources

I'm actually glad Trump is putting pressure on WHO. Somebody might crack in there and spill some beans.


Uh oh, this is going mainstream. I know Fox news is not a 'serious' source for some here, so I will quote CNN for them.

US intelligence and national security officials say the United States government is looking into the possibility that the novel coronavirus originated in a Chinese laboratory rather than a market, according to multiple sources familiar with the matter who caution it is premature to draw any conclusions.
The theory is one of multiple being pursued by investigators as they attempt to determine the origin of the coronavirus that has resulted in a pandemic and killed hundreds of thousands. The US does not believe the virus was associated with bioweapons research, and officials noted that the intelligence community is also exploring a range of other theories regarding the origination of the virus, as would typically be the case for high-profile incidents, according to an intelligence source.
The theory has been pushed by supporters of the President, including some congressional Republicans, who are eager to deflect criticisms of Trump's handling of the pandemic.
An intelligence official familiar with the government analysis said a theory US intelligence officials are investigating is that the virus originated in a laboratory in Wuhan, China, and was accidentally released to the public. Other sources told CNN that US intelligence hasn't been able to corroborate the theory but is trying to discern whether someone was infected in the lab through an accident or poor handling of materials and may have then infected others.


https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/15/politics ... index.html

Yes, it is being investigated. That is why I question those that think it is "lab created" when it is being actively looked into and yet, to date, there is no evidence that it is in fact man-made.

So the point is?

Tugg


It could be a "natural virus," isolated from a bat, leaked by inept protocol from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which is clearly military affiliated. What military goal was served? None, except learning about viruses. It was basically either the food market in Wuhan, or it was the virus lab in Wuhan. The idea that there are two viable theories in the city of Wuhan for this outrage shows just how chaotic and lawless China really is.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:22 pm

Tugger wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Take it as you wish. Quite possible if you think about it.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/corona ... us-sources

I'm actually glad Trump is putting pressure on WHO. Somebody might crack in there and spill some beans.


Uh oh, this is going mainstream. I know Fox news is not a 'serious' source for some here, so I will quote CNN for them.

US intelligence and national security officials say the United States government is looking into the possibility that the novel coronavirus originated in a Chinese laboratory rather than a market, according to multiple sources familiar with the matter who caution it is premature to draw any conclusions.
The theory is one of multiple being pursued by investigators as they attempt to determine the origin of the coronavirus that has resulted in a pandemic and killed hundreds of thousands. The US does not believe the virus was associated with bioweapons research, and officials noted that the intelligence community is also exploring a range of other theories regarding the origination of the virus, as would typically be the case for high-profile incidents, according to an intelligence source.
The theory has been pushed by supporters of the President, including some congressional Republicans, who are eager to deflect criticisms of Trump's handling of the pandemic.
An intelligence official familiar with the government analysis said a theory US intelligence officials are investigating is that the virus originated in a laboratory in Wuhan, China, and was accidentally released to the public. Other sources told CNN that US intelligence hasn't been able to corroborate the theory but is trying to discern whether someone was infected in the lab through an accident or poor handling of materials and may have then infected others.


https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/15/politics ... index.html

Yes, it is being investigated. That is why I question those that think it is "lab created" when it is being actively looked into and yet, to date, there is no evidence that it is in fact man-made.

So the point is?

Tugg


Yet there is no evidence to the contrary as well, all of this virus is extremely mysterious, and to be honest I have been on the fence all this time as if this wasn't done in a lab, I am not too much of a fan of conspiracy theories but now that this is going mainstream, there is something going on that merits the question.

What exactly are you trying to clear up here? are you really clarifying things for the CCP here or downplaying thhem? You seem to be all in favor of going against Trump for the most minimum of things, yet here you are trying to play a cautious and delicate balance as to the origin of this virus. I understand people here hate more Trump than the CCP but lets face it, the entire world is dealing with this huge crisis, and clearly it wasn't caused by Trump.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:28 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Coronavirus is a significant public health threat, but we tolerate significant public health threats (obesity, alcohol, traffic) constantly. These can all be reduced if we submit to police regulation of food intake, for example. If police compelled people to exercise, that would help too. But we don't, because it isn't important enough. And those are leading causes of death. People willingly make this tradeoff for reasons of personal freedom and work.


I'm not sure this comparison makes sense. Being obese or an alcoholic is an individual decision and issue. You don't catch obesity or alcoholism from someone else. But you can easily catch coronavirus from another person.

PixelPilot wrote:
I'm actually glad Trump is putting pressure on WHO. Somebody might crack in there and spill some beans.


I think this is BS. Yes, the WHO definitely is not perfect, but Trump "putting pressure" on the WHO is solely to try to deflect responsibility from his administration. That the US completely mucked up the response with months advance notice isn't WHO's fault no matter how they try to spin it.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:00 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Uh oh, this is going mainstream. I know Fox news is not a 'serious' source for some here, so I will quote CNN for them.



https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/15/politics ... index.html

Yes, it is being investigated. That is why I question those that think it is "lab created" when it is being actively looked into and yet, to date, there is no evidence that it is in fact man-made.

So the point is?

Tugg


Yet there is no evidence to the contrary as well, all of this virus is extremely mysterious, and to be honest I have been on the fence all this time as if this wasn't done in a lab, I am not too much of a fan of conspiracy theories but now that this is going mainstream, there is something going on that merits the question.

What exactly are you trying to clear up here? are you really clarifying things for the CCP here or downplaying thhem? You seem to be all in favor of going against Trump for the most minimum of things, yet here you are trying to play a cautious and delicate balance as to the origin of this virus. I understand people here hate more Trump than the CCP but lets face it, the entire world is dealing with this huge crisis, and clearly it wasn't caused by Trump.


It's very odd that you always want to assign hidden motive to everything. For rational people who operate on logic and reason, this issue boils down to something very simple: what does the science say? what can it prove? Right now that answer is that we don't know anywhere close to everything yet, but the available research suggests lab creation of COVID is unlikely. A long ways to go to have real answers. There is no political agenda in looking at things that way.
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PixelPilot
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:05 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Yes, it is being investigated. That is why I question those that think it is "lab created" when it is being actively looked into and yet, to date, there is no evidence that it is in fact man-made.

So the point is?

Tugg


Yet there is no evidence to the contrary as well, all of this virus is extremely mysterious, and to be honest I have been on the fence all this time as if this wasn't done in a lab, I am not too much of a fan of conspiracy theories but now that this is going mainstream, there is something going on that merits the question.

What exactly are you trying to clear up here? are you really clarifying things for the CCP here or downplaying thhem? You seem to be all in favor of going against Trump for the most minimum of things, yet here you are trying to play a cautious and delicate balance as to the origin of this virus. I understand people here hate more Trump than the CCP but lets face it, the entire world is dealing with this huge crisis, and clearly it wasn't caused by Trump.


It's very odd that you always want to assign hidden motive to everything. For rational people who operate on logic and reason, this issue boils down to something very simple: what does the science say? what can it prove? Right now that answer is that we don't know anywhere close to everything yet, but the available research suggests lab creation of COVID is unlikely. A long ways to go to have real answers. There is no political agenda in looking at things that way.


There's no evidence that it was engineered but there's no data that denies possibility of it being lab made.
it's a difference and denying it (even scientifically) actually sound like a motive.
Last edited by PixelPilot on Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:12 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Yes, it is being investigated. That is why I question those that think it is "lab created" when it is being actively looked into and yet, to date, there is no evidence that it is in fact man-made.

So the point is?

Tugg


Yet there is no evidence to the contrary as well, all of this virus is extremely mysterious, and to be honest I have been on the fence all this time as if this wasn't done in a lab, I am not too much of a fan of conspiracy theories but now that this is going mainstream, there is something going on that merits the question.

What exactly are you trying to clear up here? are you really clarifying things for the CCP here or downplaying thhem? You seem to be all in favor of going against Trump for the most minimum of things, yet here you are trying to play a cautious and delicate balance as to the origin of this virus. I understand people here hate more Trump than the CCP but lets face it, the entire world is dealing with this huge crisis, and clearly it wasn't caused by Trump.


It's very odd that you always want to assign hidden motive to everything. For rational people who operate on logic and reason, this issue boils down to something very simple: what does the science say? what can it prove? Right now that answer is that we don't know anywhere close to everything yet, but the available research suggests lab creation of COVID is unlikely. A long ways to go to have real answers. There is no political agenda in looking at things that way.


Again, another person who urges caution, logic, reason and to be rational, but when its something we suspect from Trump, is open season against Trump and his followers based on just assumptions, on the contrary for China, Iran etc, they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Don't know but since the beginning, the fact that they tried to hide this, shut down dissent, the independent reports, deny there was human to human transmission, and not allow WHO scientist or foreign scientists into China, potentially preventing the mass deaths we are witnessing right now. I tend to go against giving them the benefit of the doubt when this is the regime that at the very least was covering up COVID from the start and has led to this.

If this was released by mistake, or by accident, as those reports seem to suggest, this is going to be far worse than the Chernobyl disaster (which wasn't intentional also) since the number of dead because of this might end up in the millions. Genocidal negligence, if that the way to describe it.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:17 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Yet there is no evidence to the contrary as well, all of this virus is extremely mysterious, and to be honest I have been on the fence all this time as if this wasn't done in a lab, I am not too much of a fan of conspiracy theories but now that this is going mainstream, there is something going on that merits the question.

What exactly are you trying to clear up here? are you really clarifying things for the CCP here or downplaying thhem? You seem to be all in favor of going against Trump for the most minimum of things, yet here you are trying to play a cautious and delicate balance as to the origin of this virus. I understand people here hate more Trump than the CCP but lets face it, the entire world is dealing with this huge crisis, and clearly it wasn't caused by Trump.


It's very odd that you always want to assign hidden motive to everything. For rational people who operate on logic and reason, this issue boils down to something very simple: what does the science say? what can it prove? Right now that answer is that we don't know anywhere close to everything yet, but the available research suggests lab creation of COVID is unlikely. A long ways to go to have real answers. There is no political agenda in looking at things that way.


Again, another person who urges caution, logic, reason and to be rational, but when its something we suspect from Trump, is open season against Trump and his followers based on just assumptions, on the contrary for China, Iran etc, they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Don't know but since the beginning, the fact that they tried to hide this, shut down dissent, the independent reports, deny there was human to human transmission, and not allow WHO scientist or foreign scientists into China, potentially preventing the mass deaths we are witnessing right now. I tend to go against giving them the benefit of the doubt when this is the regime that at the very least was covering up COVID from the start and has led to this.

If this was released by mistake, or by accident, as those reports seem to suggest, this is going to be far worse than the Chernobyl disaster (which wasn't intentional also) since the number of dead because of this might end up in the millions. Genocidal negligence, if that the way to describe it.


The actions the PRC has taken to suppress/control narratives are matters for the historical and political record. They are indirectly related to the scientific matter of the virus itself only insofar as those efforts may prevent the scientific truth from being known. A mind capable of nuance can separate the scientific reality of what the virus IS from what has been done/is being done to prevent that investigation from being completed.

As for 'suspicions' about Trump, I for one rarely if ever comment about such things because I dislike conjecture. But I can and do comment a lot on the huge objective body of evidence of his actions, demeanor, gaps in knowledge and general managerial incompetence.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:24 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

It's very odd that you always want to assign hidden motive to everything. For rational people who operate on logic and reason, this issue boils down to something very simple: what does the science say? what can it prove? Right now that answer is that we don't know anywhere close to everything yet, but the available research suggests lab creation of COVID is unlikely. A long ways to go to have real answers. There is no political agenda in looking at things that way.


Again, another person who urges caution, logic, reason and to be rational, but when its something we suspect from Trump, is open season against Trump and his followers based on just assumptions, on the contrary for China, Iran etc, they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Don't know but since the beginning, the fact that they tried to hide this, shut down dissent, the independent reports, deny there was human to human transmission, and not allow WHO scientist or foreign scientists into China, potentially preventing the mass deaths we are witnessing right now. I tend to go against giving them the benefit of the doubt when this is the regime that at the very least was covering up COVID from the start and has led to this.

If this was released by mistake, or by accident, as those reports seem to suggest, this is going to be far worse than the Chernobyl disaster (which wasn't intentional also) since the number of dead because of this might end up in the millions. Genocidal negligence, if that the way to describe it.


The actions the PRC has taken to suppress/control narratives are matters for the historical and political record. They are indirectly related to the scientific matter of the virus itself only insofar as those efforts may prevent the scientific truth from being known. A mind capable of nuance can separate the scientific reality of what the virus IS from what has been done/is being done to prevent that investigation from being completed.

As for 'suspicions' about Trump, I for one rarely if ever comment about such things because I dislike conjecture. But I can and do comment a lot on the huge objective body of evidence of his actions, demeanor, gaps in knowledge and general managerial incompetence.


You quoted my China skepticism from the old thread. And by now you see why I was right.

And this is something else you might already know. There isn't a separation of politics and science, business and science or anything else in China. Everything is party oriented and centrally controlled. That's why its a communist dictatorship, a complete grip and political control of everything in the country.

So despite the fact that we have the luxury of that type of separation in this country and the rest of the western world, there isn't such in China. So do we believe in the propaganda? the state 100% state control activities in the PRC? that's up to us to believe. They control what's said and reported, everything.

COVID19 reinforces the notion that nothing out of China can be trusted.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:29 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Again, another person who urges caution, logic, reason and to be rational, but when its something we suspect from Trump, is open season against Trump and his followers based on just assumptions, on the contrary for China, Iran etc, they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Don't know but since the beginning, the fact that they tried to hide this, shut down dissent, the independent reports, deny there was human to human transmission, and not allow WHO scientist or foreign scientists into China, potentially preventing the mass deaths we are witnessing right now. I tend to go against giving them the benefit of the doubt when this is the regime that at the very least was covering up COVID from the start and has led to this.

If this was released by mistake, or by accident, as those reports seem to suggest, this is going to be far worse than the Chernobyl disaster (which wasn't intentional also) since the number of dead because of this might end up in the millions. Genocidal negligence, if that the way to describe it.


The actions the PRC has taken to suppress/control narratives are matters for the historical and political record. They are indirectly related to the scientific matter of the virus itself only insofar as those efforts may prevent the scientific truth from being known. A mind capable of nuance can separate the scientific reality of what the virus IS from what has been done/is being done to prevent that investigation from being completed.

As for 'suspicions' about Trump, I for one rarely if ever comment about such things because I dislike conjecture. But I can and do comment a lot on the huge objective body of evidence of his actions, demeanor, gaps in knowledge and general managerial incompetence.


You quoted my China skepticism from the old thread. And by now you see why I was right.

And this is something else you might already know. There isn't a separation of politics and science, business and science or anything else in China. Everything is party oriented and centrally controlled. That's why its a communist dictatorship, a complete grip and political control of everything in the country.

So despite the fact that we have the luxury of that type of separation in this country and the rest of the western world, there isn't such in China. So do we believe in the propaganda? the state 100% state control activities in the PRC? that's up to us to believe. They control what's said and reported, everything.

COVID19 reinforces the notion that nothing out of China can be trusted.


That's all well and good, but Chinese university researchers did get the virus's genome out of the country in both samples and papers in early January before the government was able to get its suppression machinery going. And that's a large part of what our researchers are working from now.
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:35 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

The actions the PRC has taken to suppress/control narratives are matters for the historical and political record. They are indirectly related to the scientific matter of the virus itself only insofar as those efforts may prevent the scientific truth from being known. A mind capable of nuance can separate the scientific reality of what the virus IS from what has been done/is being done to prevent that investigation from being completed.

As for 'suspicions' about Trump, I for one rarely if ever comment about such things because I dislike conjecture. But I can and do comment a lot on the huge objective body of evidence of his actions, demeanor, gaps in knowledge and general managerial incompetence.


You quoted my China skepticism from the old thread. And by now you see why I was right.

And this is something else you might already know. There isn't a separation of politics and science, business and science or anything else in China. Everything is party oriented and centrally controlled. That's why its a communist dictatorship, a complete grip and political control of everything in the country.

So despite the fact that we have the luxury of that type of separation in this country and the rest of the western world, there isn't such in China. So do we believe in the propaganda? the state 100% state control activities in the PRC? that's up to us to believe. They control what's said and reported, everything.

COVID19 reinforces the notion that nothing out of China can be trusted.


That's all well and good, but Chinese university researchers did get the virus's genome out of the country in both samples and papers in early January before the government was able to get its suppression machinery going. And that's a large part of what our researchers are working from now.


Yeah and look what happened to them, this speaks volumes of how things will be moving forward:

Chinese laboratory that first shared coronavirus genome with world ordered to close for ‘rectification’, hindering its Covid-19 research

No reason was given for the closure of Shanghai facility, which released information about the virus ahead of authorities
One source at the laboratory said the closure has hampered scientists’ research when they should be ‘racing against the clock’


https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society ... ld-ordered
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:43 pm

Excellent commentary here from the CFR on how Taiwan has been largely absent from the discussion of COVID mitigation due to WHO basically pretending the ROC doesn't exist out of deference to the PRC.

Taiwan’s experience has been a rare positive example of how governments can contain the spread of the new coronavirus disease, known as COVID-19. As of April 9, Taiwan had 380 confirmed cases and 5 deaths, a stunningly low number for a population of 23.6 million. This is particularly impressive given the high level of travel between China and Taiwan.

Taiwan’s success should be attributed to early preparedness, health expertise, government competence, and popular alertness. On December 31, Taiwan’s government, alarmed by developments in Wuhan, the Chinese city where the virus first appeared, expressed concerns to the World Health Organization (WHO) about the virus’s potential for human-to-human transmission. But it received no reply. Instead, the WHO endorsed China’s denial of human-to-human transmission until January 21. While the WHO appeared to downplay the global threat, Taiwan adopted vigorous measures for screening, testing, contact tracing, and enforcing quarantines. These measures were aided by technology and big data, as well as the cooperation of citizens who remain highly vigilant due to their traumatic 2003 experience with Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS).

Particularly important in Taiwan’s approach are transparency and open information. Taiwan’s Central Epidemic Command Center, established after SARS, releases information in daily briefings.


https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/why-does-w ... ude-taiwan
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:49 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Excellent commentary here from the CFR on how Taiwan has been largely absent from the discussion of COVID mitigation due to WHO basically pretending the ROC doesn't exist out of deference to the PRC.

Taiwan’s experience has been a rare positive example of how governments can contain the spread of the new coronavirus disease, known as COVID-19. As of April 9, Taiwan had 380 confirmed cases and 5 deaths, a stunningly low number for a population of 23.6 million. This is particularly impressive given the high level of travel between China and Taiwan.

Taiwan’s success should be attributed to early preparedness, health expertise, government competence, and popular alertness. On December 31, Taiwan’s government, alarmed by developments in Wuhan, the Chinese city where the virus first appeared, expressed concerns to the World Health Organization (WHO) about the virus’s potential for human-to-human transmission. But it received no reply. Instead, the WHO endorsed China’s denial of human-to-human transmission until January 21. While the WHO appeared to downplay the global threat, Taiwan adopted vigorous measures for screening, testing, contact tracing, and enforcing quarantines. These measures were aided by technology and big data, as well as the cooperation of citizens who remain highly vigilant due to their traumatic 2003 experience with Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS).

Particularly important in Taiwan’s approach are transparency and open information. Taiwan’s Central Epidemic Command Center, established after SARS, releases information in daily briefings.


https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/why-does-w ... ude-taiwan


Yes, this goes against the argument that the WHO is fundamental in times like these, Taiwan has shown that they don't need WHO. They and South Korea are the only nations in the world who have done a great job with this pandemic.

The WHO is a worthless piece of junk, don't understand the outrage at Trump removing funding, they are part of the problem why this has gone to this level, the same happened when Ebola.

In the meantime, the Chinese global times calls the US defending of WHO "genocidal". Ironic and laughable to say the least: https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1185688.shtml
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:58 pm

Please remember to provide links to your sources when you are presenting chart and photos. Thanks.
 
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:02 pm

So in the continuing saga of hydroxychloroquine, We have a new study that it may actually be worse for some patients.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/15/heal ... index.html

In the French study, doctors looked back at medical records for 181 patients with Covid-19 who had pneumonia and required supplemental oxygen. About half had taken hydroxychloroquine within 48 hours of being admitted to the hospital, and the other half had not.
...
The doctors followed the patients and found there was no statistically significant difference in the death rates of the two groups, or their chances of being admitted to the intensive care unit.
The study also raised important safety concerns about hydroxychloroquine.
In the study, eight patients who took the drug developed abnormal heart rhythms and had to stop taking it.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
PixelPilot
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:14 pm

casinterest wrote:
So in the continuing saga of hydroxychloroquine, We have a new study that it may actually be worse for some patients.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/15/heal ... index.html

In the French study, doctors looked back at medical records for 181 patients with Covid-19 who had pneumonia and required supplemental oxygen. About half had taken hydroxychloroquine within 48 hours of being admitted to the hospital, and the other half had not.
...
The doctors followed the patients and found there was no statistically significant difference in the death rates of the two groups, or their chances of being admitted to the intensive care unit.
The study also raised important safety concerns about hydroxychloroquine.
In the study, eight patients who took the drug developed abnormal heart rhythms and had to stop taking it.


That's why all medications have a side effects written on the label or leaflet.
No golden cure for everything. The ratio determines if it's allowed to be used or not.
 
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:51 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Excellent commentary here from the CFR on how Taiwan has been largely absent from the discussion of COVID mitigation due to WHO basically pretending the ROC doesn't exist out of deference to the PRC.

Taiwan’s experience has been a rare positive example of how governments can contain the spread of the new coronavirus disease, known as COVID-19. As of April 9, Taiwan had 380 confirmed cases and 5 deaths, a stunningly low number for a population of 23.6 million. This is particularly impressive given the high level of travel between China and Taiwan.

Taiwan’s success should be attributed to early preparedness, health expertise, government competence, and popular alertness. On December 31, Taiwan’s government, alarmed by developments in Wuhan, the Chinese city where the virus first appeared, expressed concerns to the World Health Organization (WHO) about the virus’s potential for human-to-human transmission. But it received no reply. Instead, the WHO endorsed China’s denial of human-to-human transmission until January 21. While the WHO appeared to downplay the global threat, Taiwan adopted vigorous measures for screening, testing, contact tracing, and enforcing quarantines. These measures were aided by technology and big data, as well as the cooperation of citizens who remain highly vigilant due to their traumatic 2003 experience with Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS).

Particularly important in Taiwan’s approach are transparency and open information. Taiwan’s Central Epidemic Command Center, established after SARS, releases information in daily briefings.


https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/why-does-w ... ude-taiwan


Yes, this goes against the argument that the WHO is fundamental in times like these, Taiwan has shown that they don't need WHO. They and South Korea are the only nations in the world who have done a great job with this pandemic.

The WHO is a worthless piece of junk, don't understand the outrage at Trump removing funding, they are part of the problem why this has gone to this level, the same happened when Ebola.

In the meantime, the Chinese global times calls the US defending of WHO "genocidal". Ironic and laughable to say the least: https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1185688.shtml


For the first time in awhile I actually agree with you :).

Seriously, all those people defending Wuhan Health Organization is beyond ridiculous. This is the same worthless organization that:
1. Blame Taiwan for racist crap against Tedros
2. Cut off an interview with a HK reporter when all she was asking is whether WHO should reconsider Taiwan being a member/observer (which they were)

World Health? More like Wuhan Health or Chi-Na Health! The evidence of CCP boot-licking is right there!

BTW, all the articles about Taiwan forgot one important thing - the complete mistrust of average Taiwanese with anything mainland PRC related. You can say the same about Hong Kong anyway (hack, the govt in HK had been totally inept and is still trying to go full revenge mode on the anti-govt protesters even during the middle of a pandemic!).
 
wingman
Posts: 3997
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:21 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
For the first time in awhile I actually agree with you :).

Seriously, all those people defending Wuhan Health Organization is beyond ridiculous. This is the same worthless organization that:
1. Blame Taiwan for racist crap against Tedros
2. Cut off an interview with a HK reporter when all she was asking is whether WHO should reconsider Taiwan being a member/observer (which they were)

World Health? More like Wuhan Health or Chi-Na Health! The evidence of CCP boot-licking is right there!

BTW, all the articles about Taiwan forgot one important thing - the complete mistrust of average Taiwanese with anything mainland PRC related. You can say the same about Hong Kong anyway (hack, the govt in HK had been totally inept and is still trying to go full revenge mode on the anti-govt protesters even during the middle of a pandemic!).


The WHO doesn't come off in a good light here, especially as the light shines brighter on the atrocious behavior by China, both the cover up, hiding quite possibly the true origin of the virus and now all this stunning racism the government seems to be encouraging against foreigners residing in China, Africans in particular. Their true colors and blatant attempt to disguise their goal of world subjugation (belt and road? more like rope and noose) are coming out for all to see, finally. Trump's about as repugnant on personal level but I'm happy being on the permanent record supporting his big fat orange middle finger to Chairman Xi. China is a bad actor, worse even than the Russians given the fact they have true power in spades. I have a feeling the consequences to China, and all of us for that matter, for this epic and practically intentional destruction of the global economy is going to last decades. Get ready for it.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1105
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:26 pm

wingman wrote:
China is a bad actor, worse even than the Russians given the fact they have true power in spades.


:checkmark: :checkmark:
Couldn't have said it better myself.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 623
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:31 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

You quoted my China skepticism from the old thread. And by now you see why I was right.

And this is something else you might already know. There isn't a separation of politics and science, business and science or anything else in China. Everything is party oriented and centrally controlled. That's why its a communist dictatorship, a complete grip and political control of everything in the country.

So despite the fact that we have the luxury of that type of separation in this country and the rest of the western world, there isn't such in China. So do we believe in the propaganda? the state 100% state control activities in the PRC? that's up to us to believe. They control what's said and reported, everything.

COVID19 reinforces the notion that nothing out of China can be trusted.


That's all well and good, but Chinese university researchers did get the virus's genome out of the country in both samples and papers in early January before the government was able to get its suppression machinery going. And that's a large part of what our researchers are working from now.


Yeah and look what happened to them, this speaks volumes of how things will be moving forward:

Chinese laboratory that first shared coronavirus genome with world ordered to close for ‘rectification’, hindering its Covid-19 research

No reason was given for the closure of Shanghai facility, which released information about the virus ahead of authorities
One source at the laboratory said the closure has hampered scientists’ research when they should be ‘racing against the clock’


https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society ... ld-ordered


The stunning part there is that they would acknowledge a problem. I remember the first day they acknowledged air pollution problems in the Chinese press. It was sometime in the 2000s. Before that, it was forbidden to publish information about that. Their system doesn't function on "open dialogue," it functions on pre-determined goals, claiming that the goal was achieved, and hiding all evidence that it wasn't achieved.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:33 pm

This thread will get locked very soon, in case some users are continuing to attack each other. Please discuss the topic, stop attacking each other and make use of the reporting function in case you think there are posts which are violating forum rules. Thanks.
 
PixelPilot
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:19 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:39 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
wingman wrote:
China is a bad actor, worse even than the Russians given the fact they have true power in spades.


:checkmark: :checkmark:
Couldn't have said it better myself.


I'm not sure if this was posted but Russia is a in a very interesting position being so close to China. When you read the narrative from the CCP it makes you wonder how will Putin react.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... ary-crisis

On Monday, China’s national health commission reported 79 of the 89 new imported cases were in Heilongjiang province. They were all Chinese citizens travelling home from Russia, state media said on Tuesday.
“Russia is the latest example of a failure to control imported cases and can serve as a warning to others,” said the state-owned English-language Global Times in an editorial.
“The Chinese people have watched Russia become a severely affected country … This should sound the alarm: China must strictly prevent the inflow of cases and avoid a second outbreak.”
 
N212R
Posts: 331
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:54 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
That's all well and good, but Chinese university researchers did get the virus's genome out of the country in both samples and papers in early January before the government was able to get its suppression machinery going. And that's a large part of what our researchers are working from now.


There is NO way the Chinese researchers "got out" the virus's genome WITHOUT the all-seeing, all-knowing tacit consent of the CCP authorities. The CCP suppression machinery doesn't take vacations. This was in the second week of January. The clampdown was well established by that point. The virus had been known and circulating in Wuhan since October/November.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3042
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:22 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Excellent commentary here from the CFR on how Taiwan has been largely absent from the discussion of COVID mitigation due to WHO basically pretending the ROC doesn't exist out of deference to the PRC.

Taiwan’s experience has been a rare positive example of how governments can contain the spread of the new coronavirus disease, known as COVID-19. As of April 9, Taiwan had 380 confirmed cases and 5 deaths, a stunningly low number for a population of 23.6 million. This is particularly impressive given the high level of travel between China and Taiwan.

Taiwan’s success should be attributed to early preparedness, health expertise, government competence, and popular alertness. On December 31, Taiwan’s government, alarmed by developments in Wuhan, the Chinese city where the virus first appeared, expressed concerns to the World Health Organization (WHO) about the virus’s potential for human-to-human transmission. But it received no reply. Instead, the WHO endorsed China’s denial of human-to-human transmission until January 21. While the WHO appeared to downplay the global threat, Taiwan adopted vigorous measures for screening, testing, contact tracing, and enforcing quarantines. These measures were aided by technology and big data, as well as the cooperation of citizens who remain highly vigilant due to their traumatic 2003 experience with Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS).

Particularly important in Taiwan’s approach are transparency and open information. Taiwan’s Central Epidemic Command Center, established after SARS, releases information in daily briefings.


https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/why-does-w ... ude-taiwan


Yes, this goes against the argument that the WHO is fundamental in times like these, Taiwan has shown that they don't need WHO. They and South Korea are the only nations in the world who have done a great job with this pandemic.

The WHO is a worthless piece of junk, don't understand the outrage at Trump removing funding, they are part of the problem why this has gone to this level, the same happened when Ebola.

In the meantime, the Chinese global times calls the US defending of WHO "genocidal". Ironic and laughable to say the least: https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1185688.shtml


For the first time in awhile I actually agree with you :).

Seriously, all those people defending Wuhan Health Organization is beyond ridiculous. This is the same worthless organization that:
1. Blame Taiwan for racist crap against Tedros
2. Cut off an interview with a HK reporter when all she was asking is whether WHO should reconsider Taiwan being a member/observer (which they were)

World Health? More like Wuhan Health or Chi-Na Health! The evidence of CCP boot-licking is right there!

BTW, all the articles about Taiwan forgot one important thing - the complete mistrust of average Taiwanese with anything mainland PRC related. You can say the same about Hong Kong anyway (hack, the govt in HK had been totally inept and is still trying to go full revenge mode on the anti-govt protesters even during the middle of a pandemic!).

:checkmark: :checkmark:
I am more than sure that Trump is simply using this as a vehicle to deflect some blame, but in this case I don't care. The WHO have proved themselves, from the most charitable perspective, useless (they couldn't do their job blunting future pandemics, but thank God we have them to put out utterly tone deaf recommendations for the world not to drink while they're locked down :roll: ). Not just the US, but all member nations should be reevaluating their WHO funding.
 
art
Posts: 3494
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:47 pm

UK reports that non-total lockdown measures are being observed by nearly all. R0 is estimated to have fallen significantly below 1. Lots of spare hospital bed capacity at the moment. Lockdown to continue with another review in 3 weeks.

In a survey of 3430 adults asking if they would support a further 3 week lockdown, results were:

Strongly support: 67%
Somewhat support: 24%
Strongly oppose: 3%
Somewhat oppose: 2%
Do not know: 4%

Source: https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/su ... 16/73305/1

I wonder how these UK figures of 91% for continued lockdown, 5% against compare with the views of the public in other countries.
 
PixelPilot
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:19 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:00 pm

art wrote:
UK reports that non-total lockdown measures are being observed by nearly all. R0 is estimated to have fallen significantly below 1. Lots of spare hospital bed capacity at the moment. Lockdown to continue with another review in 3 weeks.

In a survey of 3430 adults asking if they would support a further 3 week lockdown, results were:

Strongly support: 67%
Somewhat support: 24%
Strongly oppose: 3%
Somewhat oppose: 2%
Do not know: 4%

Source: https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/su ... 16/73305/1

I wonder how these UK figures of 91% for continued lockdown, 5% against compare with the views of the public in other countries.


Michigan had actual protesters yesterday in favor of reopening so I'm guessing the numbers in US won't be this wholesome.
 
PixelPilot
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:19 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:02 pm

Allegedly Canada has its fingers in the lab as well

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/u-s-ca ... hinese-lab
 
N212R
Posts: 331
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:20 pm

Things are hotting up in Originland. The senator called out the NIH "in collaboration with US institutions". The pigeons are coming home to roost.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10723
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:34 pm

Well this can't be good news for citizens of the US of A:
Doctors at NYU Langone Health in New York analyzed more than 4,000 patients hospitalized with Covid-19 in March, as the virus was shutting down the city. Those over age 65 or who were significantly overweight, carrying an extra 80 to 100 pounds, were more likely to be hospitalized. Patients with low oxygen levels and signs of inflammation on lab tests were most likely to be critically ill.

The most surprising finding was the strong tie between obesity and critical illness, said lead researcher Christopher Petrilli, an assistant professor in the Department of Medicine. Overweight patients who were under age 60 were twice as likely to be hospitalized as their thinner peers, while those who were obese were three times as likely to need intensive care, the study found.

The results make sense because obesity is a pro-inflammatory state: People who carry extra weight have higher levels of immune response and inflammation, Petrilli said.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... nd=premium

I know the article speaks to how genetics may impact the virus effects but if weight is a factor then then USA will be hit be that. It may also be a possible reason why our number look like they do compared to other countries.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3525
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:48 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Yes, this goes against the argument that the WHO is fundamental in times like these, Taiwan has shown that they don't need WHO. They and South Korea are the only nations in the world who have done a great job with this pandemic.

The WHO is a worthless piece of junk, don't understand the outrage at Trump removing funding, they are part of the problem why this has gone to this level, the same happened when Ebola.

In the meantime, the Chinese global times calls the US defending of WHO "genocidal". Ironic and laughable to say the least: https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1185688.shtml


For the first time in awhile I actually agree with you :).

Seriously, all those people defending Wuhan Health Organization is beyond ridiculous. This is the same worthless organization that:
1. Blame Taiwan for racist crap against Tedros
2. Cut off an interview with a HK reporter when all she was asking is whether WHO should reconsider Taiwan being a member/observer (which they were)

World Health? More like Wuhan Health or Chi-Na Health! The evidence of CCP boot-licking is right there!

BTW, all the articles about Taiwan forgot one important thing - the complete mistrust of average Taiwanese with anything mainland PRC related. You can say the same about Hong Kong anyway (hack, the govt in HK had been totally inept and is still trying to go full revenge mode on the anti-govt protesters even during the middle of a pandemic!).

:checkmark: :checkmark:
I am more than sure that Trump is simply using this as a vehicle to deflect some blame, but in this case I don't care. The WHO have proved themselves, from the most charitable perspective, useless (they couldn't do their job blunting future pandemics, but thank God we have them to put out utterly tone deaf recommendations for the world not to drink while they're locked down :roll: ). Not just the US, but all member nations should be reevaluating their WHO funding.


Agree with you also.

Yes, Trump is definitely trying to shift all the blame to Wuhan Health Organization as if Trump calling this a "hoax" helps one bit. Wuhan Health Organization, though, definitely deserves it.

For all the talk about WHO and whether US should fund it or not, what have they even done during the whole pandemic? Nothing. Actually, the fact that it took them so long to even call this a "pandemic" (mainly to please China anyway) certainly did not help. And after the virus grew like wildfire, did they even do things such as coordinating medical resources around the world? Nope, WHO did nothing in that regards!

All this adding onto WHO recommendation against banning travel (but hey, China is good when they banned all people in Hubei from leaving the province), wishy washy about human-to-human spread, recommendation against mask (it helps slow things down if everyone wears one - only bc if you are sick, you won't spread it to 10 people, and you don't know whether you are sick with Wuhan Pneumonia or not until much later).
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3856
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:57 pm

Aesma wrote:
art wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:

If this is the case then any vaccine developed using the current way we vaccine which exposing someone to a dead or weakened version of the pathogen to stimulate the production of antibodies will not be useful in this case if the traditional immune response doesn't work.


Yes, possibly disastrous news from South Korea. I hope their CDC finds that these 'relapsed' cases were not in fact free from the virus when they were determined to have recovered.


Since tests aren't very reliable it might be they were falsely tested negative before.

The thread about the USS Roosevelt is closed, so I will report here : 668 French sailors have been tested positive for COVID19, mostly from aircraft carrier FS Charles de Gaulle (R91). https://news.usni.org/2020/04/15/two-u- ... r-covid-19 Not all test results have come back so it will probably be more. At least two American sailors are among the sick. The carrier is back at its homeport of Toulon and being disinfected.


In the virology thread started by Doc I was asking about immunity and when you are immune from a virus it doesn't mean you can't come in contact with it again, you probably most certainly will. The virus in an immune person will still spread enough to ring the alarm for the immune system to respond then the memory T cells identify it and kill it off before that person is sick via antibodies or other means. You could in theory test positive again but how contagious are you.

The symptoms are your body fighting the infection back and not the infection itself.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10723
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:12 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
In the virology thread started by Doc I was asking about immunity and when you are immune from a virus it doesn't mean you can't come in contact with it again, you probably most certainly will. The virus in an immune person will still spread enough to ring the alarm for the immune system to respond then the memory T cells identify it and kill it off before that person is sick via antibodies or other means. You could in theory test positive again but how contagious are you.

Perhaps a "best case" situation would be constant reinfection of a low impact version of the virus that keeps peoples immune systems primed but is otherwise easily controlled. And with the apparently transmissibilty of it that might be the best case. Essentially an automatic vaccine (though vaccines normally use a dead virus). Not saying this is optimal but as long as at risk populations have their immune systems tuned to it, the risk would be lower.

Of course I am not very knowledgeable on this. Just thinking out loud (which might be equivalent to "open mouth, insert foot ;-) )

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3856
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:20 pm

Some articles from a Canadian newspaper that have some valid criticism of the actions of the Canadian government in the last month. We have largely followed the guidelines set out but we have to be vigilant that our rights are turned back over to us when this over or the minority Trudeau government might find themselves without a job.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/andrew ... 1586970712

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/marni- ... 1587058878

Fines I do support in particular curcumstances like having a party but a guy with his kids rollerblading when no one is around getting fined $880 goes a bit too far.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/dylan- ... 1586969138
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
PixelPilot
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:19 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:32 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Yes, Trump is definitely trying to shift all the blame to Wuhan Health Organization as if Trump calling this a "hoax" helps one bit. Wuhan Health Organization, though, definitely deserves it.


To refer to this part only, Trump never called Covid a hoax.
Like him or not this is a fact.

In context, Trump did not say in the passage above that the virus itself was a hoax. He instead said that Democrats’ criticism of his administration’s response to it was a hoax

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump ... ly-remark/
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 11809
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:58 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Yes, Trump is definitely trying to shift all the blame to Wuhan Health Organization as if Trump calling this a "hoax" helps one bit. Wuhan Health Organization, though, definitely deserves it.


To refer to this part only, Trump never called Covid a hoax.
Like him or not this is a fact.

In context, Trump did not say in the passage above that the virus itself was a hoax. He instead said that Democrats’ criticism of his administration’s response to it was a hoax

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump ... ly-remark/


Yet Trump did downplay it , and compared the coronavirus to the flu in the same speech.


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... oronavirus

This includes several doozies includimg
"3) “It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear”"
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
PixelPilot
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:19 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:10 pm

casinterest wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Yes, Trump is definitely trying to shift all the blame to Wuhan Health Organization as if Trump calling this a "hoax" helps one bit. Wuhan Health Organization, though, definitely deserves it.


To refer to this part only, Trump never called Covid a hoax.
Like him or not this is a fact.

In context, Trump did not say in the passage above that the virus itself was a hoax. He instead said that Democrats’ criticism of his administration’s response to it was a hoax

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump ... ly-remark/


Yet Trump did downplay it , and compared the coronavirus to the flu in the same speech.


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... oronavirus

This includes several doozies includimg
"3) “It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear”"


Never said he didn't so not sure where is your answer heading.

Though I wouldn't use VOX for news. They were downplaying just as loud.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin ... is-reality
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 11809
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:14 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
casinterest wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:

To refer to this part only, Trump never called Covid a hoax.
Like him or not this is a fact.

In context, Trump did not say in the passage above that the virus itself was a hoax. He instead said that Democrats’ criticism of his administration’s response to it was a hoax

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump ... ly-remark/


Yet Trump did downplay it , and compared the coronavirus to the flu in the same speech.


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... oronavirus

This includes several doozies includimg
"3) “It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear”"


Never said he didn't so not sure where is your answer heading.

Though I wouldn't use VOX for news. They were downplaying just as loud.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin ... is-reality


Well, when you look at the context, you can tell he wanted it to be a hoax in February. Why else repeat such a stupid quote at rally?

And are you disputing the facts in Vox? I can find videos for all of those. So they seem to be a bit more credible than you are.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3525
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:17 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Yes, Trump is definitely trying to shift all the blame to Wuhan Health Organization as if Trump calling this a "hoax" helps one bit. Wuhan Health Organization, though, definitely deserves it.


To refer to this part only, Trump never called Covid a hoax.
Like him or not this is a fact.

In context, Trump did not say in the passage above that the virus itself was a hoax. He instead said that Democrats’ criticism of his administration’s response to it was a hoax

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump ... ly-remark/


I stand corrected.

Trump himself is all over the place either way. One day he downplays it, the other he will say US will have to prepared. I guess it depends on which advisors he was talking to that day. :(.

The bottom line is that Trump response is not perfect, but so of his highly "criticized" (at least by the media...) call did turn out to be the correct thing to do. Travel ban of China then Europe especially was the right call to make, albeit in the latter case, a little bit too late.

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