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Concierge
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:18 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:51 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Concierge wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

So I suppose no one is allowed to drive a car because they just might kill someone?

Or perhaps buying a hamburger is not allowed because I might die from a heart attack?

There is a risk for everything we do in life, does that mean we regulate and stop people from doing millions of things?

BTW, what do you think of Sweden, they don't have much of restrictions, why don't they follow your line of thinking?



If the number of deaths in motor vehicle accidents was increasing at the rate of COVID 19, action would be taken. Motor vehicle operation is a very poor comparison. Few things are more strictly controlled from design requirements, to licensing, speed limits and mandatory seat belt laws.

Your right to a hamburger is constrained when e coli shows up in ground beef. If that's too restrictive, well bon appetit!

It's impossible to teach someone to care about others, so we have laws.


There is a risk for everything, in 2018 36,000 people died from car accidents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_veh ... S._by_year

Are we willing to reduce the speed limit to 20 miles per hour everywhere so that number goes to zero? probably not. Are we willing to not allow anyone to drive, even worse not.


We have learned to live with the risks.


Car crashes aren't contagious and the number of fatalities doesn't double every three days. It's an inadequate comparison.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1105
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:59 pm

Concierge wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Concierge wrote:


If the number of deaths in motor vehicle accidents was increasing at the rate of COVID 19, action would be taken. Motor vehicle operation is a very poor comparison. Few things are more strictly controlled from design requirements, to licensing, speed limits and mandatory seat belt laws.

Your right to a hamburger is constrained when e coli shows up in ground beef. If that's too restrictive, well bon appetit!

It's impossible to teach someone to care about others, so we have laws.


There is a risk for everything, in 2018 36,000 people died from car accidents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_veh ... S._by_year

Are we willing to reduce the speed limit to 20 miles per hour everywhere so that number goes to zero? probably not. Are we willing to not allow anyone to drive, even worse not.


We have learned to live with the risks.


Car crashes aren't contagious and the number of fatalities doesn't double every three days. It's an inadequate comparison.


People die what's the difference?

You aren't able to respond, would you and the rest of the people accept driving at 20 miles per hour so that the fatalities for car accidents in the US (which are 30,000 a year) are reduced to almost zero? or in the world the are 1.3 million https://www.asirt.org/safe-travel/road-safety-facts/

Would you accept? we are doing this of staying home so that people don't die or less people die, and as a consequence we are tanking the economy. What would be the economic result of a world wide speed limit of 20 miles per hour to save thousands of lives?
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
FGITD
Posts: 1040
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:03 pm

Concierge wrote:

Car crashes aren't contagious and the number of fatalities doesn't double every three days. It's an inadequate comparison.


well that's simply false! Just last month I brushed up against someone who had been in a car accident, and then came down with a bad case of car accident a few days later. Fortunately I took some medicine and healed nicely.

Sarcasm aside, I think the biggest issue here is that the virus isn't a tangible thing to most people. You don't see it, you can't literally fight it, and therefore it doesn't exist.

Thus far I've witnessed 2 primary schools of thought. I've seen doctors who have devoted their lives and education to studying viruses. (including one member of these very forums, an invaluable source of info) And the other is a group of people honking horns and shouting racial slurs from vehicles, "protesting" how they can't go to church.

I tend to lean towards the side of caution, and so I think I'm siding with the doctors on this one, instead of the belligerent idiots.
 
Concierge
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:18 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:23 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Concierge wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

There is a risk for everything, in 2018 36,000 people died from car accidents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_veh ... S._by_year

Are we willing to reduce the speed limit to 20 miles per hour everywhere so that number goes to zero? probably not. Are we willing to not allow anyone to drive, even worse not.


We have learned to live with the risks.


Car crashes aren't contagious and the number of fatalities doesn't double every three days. It's an inadequate comparison.


People die what's the difference?

You aren't able to respond, would you and the rest of the people accept driving at 20 miles per hour so that the fatalities for car accidents in the US (which are 30,000 a year) are reduced to almost zero? or in the world the are 1.3 million https://www.asirt.org/safe-travel/road-safety-facts/

Would you accept? we are doing this of staying home so that people don't die or less people die, and as a consequence we are tanking the economy. What would be the economic result of a world wide speed limit of 20 miles per hour to save thousands of lives?


Who but You suggested 20mph?

If the number of MVAs doubled every three days, action would be taken.

'People die, What's the difference?' That's all I need to know about you.
 
AirWorthy99
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Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:28 pm

Concierge wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Concierge wrote:

Car crashes aren't contagious and the number of fatalities doesn't double every three days. It's an inadequate comparison.


People die what's the difference?

You aren't able to respond, would you and the rest of the people accept driving at 20 miles per hour so that the fatalities for car accidents in the US (which are 30,000 a year) are reduced to almost zero? or in the world the are 1.3 million https://www.asirt.org/safe-travel/road-safety-facts/

Would you accept? we are doing this of staying home so that people don't die or less people die, and as a consequence we are tanking the economy. What would be the economic result of a world wide speed limit of 20 miles per hour to save thousands of lives?


Who but You suggested 20mph?

If the number of MVAs doubled every three days, action would be taken.

'People die, What's the difference?' That's all I need to know about you.


I know its a difficult question to respond. That's the speed for deaths to be reduced to almost zero for car accidents.

So people who die from car accidents have less value or priority than those who die from COVID19? On a typical year 1.3 million people die from car accidents, thus far there are 167,000 deaths from COVID19.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
art
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:34 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
If you want the economy back, you need a short but total lockdown that isolates and eradicates the virus. With loose guidelines, all you do is create an ever-lasting anemic situation.


I think that eradication of the virus in a country might have been possible at the beginning of the national outbreak if effective tracking of contacts with infectees had been undertaken, contactees had been traced and locked down and borders had been sealed to prevent any influx of people carrying the virus..

If all people lived in a dwelling on their own total lockdown would result in eradication in my opinion. That all people live alone, however, is not the case, so they can infect cohabitants.

Additionally, unless total lockdown included all medics and no medical treatment were given to people falling victim to the virus, some medics would catch the virus and pass it on to colleagues and cohabitants.

Personally I believe this disease is now endemic. I fear it will infect tens of millions more until most of humanity is innoculated. I hope that will come about in 2021 or 2022.

I also think that refusal by people to allow some of their freedoms to be suspended temporarily would serve to greatly magnify the extent of infection.
 
Concierge
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:18 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:39 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Concierge wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

People die what's the difference?

You aren't able to respond, would you and the rest of the people accept driving at 20 miles per hour so that the fatalities for car accidents in the US (which are 30,000 a year) are reduced to almost zero? or in the world the are 1.3 million https://www.asirt.org/safe-travel/road-safety-facts/

Would you accept? we are doing this of staying home so that people don't die or less people die, and as a consequence we are tanking the economy. What would be the economic result of a world wide speed limit of 20 miles per hour to save thousands of lives?


Who but You suggested 20mph?

If the number of MVAs doubled every three days, action would be taken.

'People die, What's the difference?' That's all I need to know about you.


I know its a difficult question to respond. That's the speed for deaths to be reduced to almost zero for car accidents.

So people who die from car accidents have less value or priority than those who die from COVID19? On a typical year 1.3 million people die from car accidents, thus far there are 167,000 deaths from COVID19.


Not at all difficult - it's a straw man argument -you're the only one saying these things. There's no a point in responding.

BTW - 'People will die what's the difference?' That's all I need to know about you.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:22 pm

This is an interesting view of this, we all have been fed the same thing over and over from the MSM, about panic and fear and hide under our caves.

Take a look at a Senior Epidemiologist from Sweden. He seems to believe that eventually all us of will surrender and do the Swedish method, we all are avoiding the inevitable.


Swedish expert: why lockdowns are the wrong policy

That was one of the more extraordinary interviews we have done here at UnHerd.

Professor Johan Giesecke, one of the world’s most senior epidemiologists, advisor to the Swedish Government (he hired Anders Tegnell who is currently directing Swedish strategy), the first Chief Scientist of the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, and an advisor to the director general of the WHO, lays out with typically Swedish bluntness why he thinks:

UK policy on lockdown and other European countries are not evidence-based
The correct policy is to protect the old and the frail only
This will eventually lead to herd immunity as a “by-product”
The initial UK response, before the “180 degree U-turn”, was better
The Imperial College paper was “not very good” and he has never seen an unpublished paper have so much policy impact
The paper was very much too pessimistic
Any such models are a dubious basis for public policy anyway
The flattening of the curve is due to the most vulnerable dying first as much as the lockdown
The results will eventually be similar for all countries
Covid-19 is a “mild disease” and similar to the flu, and it was the novelty of the disease that scared people.
The actual fatality rate of Covid-19 is the region of 0.1%
At least 50% of the population of both the UK and Sweden will be shown to have already had the disease when mass antibody testing becomes available


https://unherd.com/thepost/coming-up-ep ... om-sweden/

This is an expert opinion outside of the 'conventional wisdom' opinion from our current policy and decision makers.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2614
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:58 pm

IgorD wrote:
I think, @Waterbomber2, you are right on how to make a serious attempt at eradication of the virus. Most probably it is not going to happen, probably the societies will accept the costs in lives and open up. The tragedy (or irony) is that we are going to both, seriously damage the economy and write off the weak and old.


Wait a minute. I get jumped on for wanting to go to the gym but you all are supporting shooting anyone who leaves their home?

Ok, now I know in the right.
 
TTailedTiger
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Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:02 pm

art wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
If you want the economy back, you need a short but total lockdown that isolates and eradicates the virus. With loose guidelines, all you do is create an ever-lasting anemic situation.


I think that eradication of the virus in a country might have been possible at the beginning of the national outbreak if effective tracking of contacts with infectees had been undertaken, contactees had been traced and locked down and borders had been sealed to prevent any influx of people carrying the virus..

If all people lived in a dwelling on their own total lockdown would result in eradication in my opinion. That all people live alone, however, is not the case, so they can infect cohabitants.

Additionally, unless total lockdown included all medics and no medical treatment were given to people falling victim to the virus, some medics would catch the virus and pass it on to colleagues and cohabitants.

Personally I believe this disease is now endemic. I fear it will infect tens of millions more until most of humanity is innoculated. I hope that will come about in 2021 or 2022.

I also think that refusal by people to allow some of their freedoms to be suspended temporarily would serve to greatly magnify the extent of infection.


Temporary suggests a short and defined period. That has not happened. Mayors and governors are essentially saying "when I say so". That is unacceptable.
 
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ER757
Posts: 3835
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:11 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Well here's my thought. This sounds like social engineering. Have you ever read Harrison Bergeron? Making everyone wear masks is a big step to making everyone conform.


Support those protesting the measures and use your 1st and 2nd amendment rights. Protect freedom, fight the lock down! For a free America.


Totally agree - so long as these protesters sign a waiver for any future COVID testing or treatment.

:checkmark: This right here! I 100% defend the protesters' right to peaceful assembly. It's one of the ideals we hold most dear. But if you are blatantly disregarding a public health and safety advisory, you need to accept responsibility for the possible consequences. If you get sick, you're on your own - stay home and tough it out. You don't get to waste one minute of a health care professional's time because of your idiocy.
 
Concierge
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:28 pm

ER757 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
seahawk wrote:

Support those protesting the measures and use your 1st and 2nd amendment rights. Protect freedom, fight the lock down! For a free America.


Totally agree - so long as these protesters sign a waiver for any future COVID testing or treatment.

:checkmark: This right here! I 100% defend the protesters' right to peaceful assembly. It's one of the ideals we hold most dear. But if you are blatantly disregarding a public health and safety advisory, you need to accept responsibility for the possible consequences. If you get sick, you're on your own - stay home and tough it out. You don't get to waste one minute of a health care professional's time because of your idiocy.


In the USA, you can't be denied medical care - they would proudly sign the waiver, then show up at the hospital anyway.
 
IgorD
Posts: 37
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:19 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
IgorD wrote:
I think, @Waterbomber2, you are right on how to make a serious attempt at eradication of the virus. Most probably it is not going to happen, probably the societies will accept the costs in lives and open up. The tragedy (or irony) is that we are going to both, seriously damage the economy and write off the weak and old.


Wait a minute. I get jumped on for wanting to go to the gym but you all are supporting shooting anyone who leaves their home?

Ok, now I know in the right.


I wonder how you came to this conclusion.

My point is that no plausible eradication attempt will be done, but prolonged quasi lockdown (at least where I live) will damage the economy badly and still roll out the virus over the population.
 
TTailedTiger
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Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:21 pm

IgorD wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
IgorD wrote:
I think, @Waterbomber2, you are right on how to make a serious attempt at eradication of the virus. Most probably it is not going to happen, probably the societies will accept the costs in lives and open up. The tragedy (or irony) is that we are going to both, seriously damage the economy and write off the weak and old.


Wait a minute. I get jumped on for wanting to go to the gym but you all are supporting shooting anyone who leaves their home?

Ok, now I know in the right.


I wonder how you came to this conclusion.

My point is that no plausible eradication attempt will be done, but prolonged quasi lockdown (at least where I live) will damage the economy badly and still roll out the virus over the population.


You said you agreed with waterbomber2's solution. And shooting anyone who left their home was part of his solution.
 
IgorD
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:28 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:36 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
IgorD wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Wait a minute. I get jumped on for wanting to go to the gym but you all are supporting shooting anyone who leaves their home?

Ok, now I know in the right.


I wonder how you came to this conclusion.

My point is that no plausible eradication attempt will be done, but prolonged quasi lockdown (at least where I live) will damage the economy badly and still roll out the virus over the population.


You said you agreed with waterbomber2's solution. And shooting anyone who left their home was part of his solution.


Well, very strict norms are necessary for a plausible eradication of the virus, don't you agree? The other question is if those measures are feasible or desirable.

I am afraid that we get the worst of two worlds -- the virus and a destroyed economy
 
art
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:08 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
art wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
If you want the economy back, you need a short but total lockdown that isolates and eradicates the virus. With loose guidelines, all you do is create an ever-lasting anemic situation.


I think that eradication of the virus in a country might have been possible at the beginning of the national outbreak if effective tracking of contacts with infectees had been undertaken, contactees had been traced and locked down and borders had been sealed to prevent any influx of people carrying the virus..

If all people lived in a dwelling on their own total lockdown would result in eradication in my opinion. That all people live alone, however, is not the case, so they can infect cohabitants.

Additionally, unless total lockdown included all medics and no medical treatment were given to people falling victim to the virus, some medics would catch the virus and pass it on to colleagues and cohabitants.

Personally I believe this disease is now endemic. I fear it will infect tens of millions more until most of humanity is innoculated. I hope that will come about in 2021 or 2022.

I also think that refusal by people to allow some of their freedoms to be suspended temporarily would serve to greatly magnify the extent of infection.


Temporary suggests a short and defined period. That has not happened. Mayors and governors are essentially saying "when I say so". That is unacceptable.


I'm not convinced that 'temporary' suggests a defined period.

If some states choose to experiment with a return to normal life, so be it but to protect others from the possible consequence (a rapid rise in COVID-19 infections) should they not seal themselves off?
Last edited by art on Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:05 am

Looks like Deblasio set up a number for people to snitch on those not following social distancing. He promised swift enforcement action. This is why I could never support a Democrat.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/18/de-blasio ... -breakers/
 
winginit
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:05 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Looks like Deblasio set up a number for people to snitch on those not following social distancing. He promised swift enforcement action. This is why I could never support a Democrat.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/18/de-blasio ... -breakers/


How is this literally any different than notifying authorities towards a vehicle that is parked illegally?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:16 am

winginit wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Looks like Deblasio set up a number for people to snitch on those not following social distancing. He promised swift enforcement action. This is why I could never support a Democrat.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/18/de-blasio ... -breakers/


How is this literally any different than notifying authorities towards a vehicle that is parked illegally?



These rules are not laws. They have not been through the legislature. No different than the Nazis telling people to turn in friends, family, neighbors.
 
PPVRA
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:27 am

The downside of deaths per day is that it’s a lagging indicator. Sweden’s new daily infection and daily hospitalization statistics are leveling off:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coro ... _in_Sweden

(Scroll down to statistics)
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:33 am

PPVRA wrote:
The downside of deaths per day is that it’s a lagging indicator. Sweden’s new daily infection and daily hospitalization statistics are leveling off:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coro ... _in_Sweden

(Scroll down to statistics)


Their cases appeared to do so two weeks ago then rose again. Meanwhile Norway has seen a more or less sustained decline for three weeks.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Concierge
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:34 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
winginit wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Looks like Deblasio set up a number for people to snitch on those not following social distancing. He promised swift enforcement action. This is why I could never support a Democrat.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/18/de-blasio ... -breakers/


How is this literally any different than notifying authorities towards a vehicle that is parked illegally?



These rules are not laws. They have not been through the legislature. No different than the Nazis telling people to turn in friends, family, neighbors.


Cities pass ordinances without legislative control. They are legal and binding and enforcable. They are laws in all but name. Hence the ongoing tension between NYC and Albany.

Calling someone a Nazi only shows that you don't know much about Nazism.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:50 am

Concierge wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
winginit wrote:

How is this literally any different than notifying authorities towards a vehicle that is parked illegally?



These rules are not laws. They have not been through the legislature. No different than the Nazis telling people to turn in friends, family, neighbors.


Cities pass ordinances without legislative control. They are legal and binding and enforcable. They are laws in all but name. Hence the ongoing tension between NYC and Albany.

Calling someone a Nazi only shows that you don't know much about Nazism.


It's sad that people don't questioned newly established ordinances. Would you have turned in Japanese Americans during WW2 so they could be put in interment camps?
 
Concierge
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:18 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:07 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Concierge wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:


These rules are not laws. They have not been through the legislature. No different than the Nazis telling people to turn in friends, family, neighbors.


Cities pass ordinances without legislative control. They are legal and binding and enforcable. They are laws in all but name. Hence the ongoing tension between NYC and Albany.

Calling someone a Nazi only shows that you don't know much about Nazism.


It's sad that people don't questioned newly established ordinances. Would you have turned in Japanese Americans during WW2 so they could be put in interment camps?


Wow. First you were wrong, and called some anonymous New Yorker a Nazi.. And now Japanese American internment camps! There ought to be a prize for such outrageous and empty defelection.
 
winginit
Posts: 2942
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:43 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Concierge wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:


These rules are not laws. They have not been through the legislature. No different than the Nazis telling people to turn in friends, family, neighbors.


Cities pass ordinances without legislative control. They are legal and binding and enforcable. They are laws in all but name. Hence the ongoing tension between NYC and Albany.

Calling someone a Nazi only shows that you don't know much about Nazism.


It's sad that people don't questioned newly established ordinances. Would you have turned in Japanese Americans during WW2 so they could be put in interment camps?


Sure sounds like you would have.

And as was rightfully pointed out to you, these ordinances are indeed enforceable. Your opinion on whether they can or should be enforced is as irrelevant as me whining about speed limits.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:50 am

Trump has suspended immigration to protect American jobs. He will be known as one of the greatest presidents we have ever had. I didn't vote for him in 2016 but I certainly will this November.

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/sta ... 01639?s=21
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:59 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Trump has suspended immigration to protect American jobs. He will be known as one of the greatest presidents we have ever had. I didn't vote for him in 2016 but I certainly will this November.

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/sta ... 01639?s=21


My biz partner is still waiting for his lovely Australian wife’s green card, and she threatens nobody if this is a blanket ban. Nobody at our company will be voting Trump.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:01 am

Aaron747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Trump has suspended immigration to protect American jobs. He will be known as one of the greatest presidents we have ever had. I didn't vote for him in 2016 but I certainly will this November.

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/sta ... 01639?s=21


My biz partner is still waiting for his lovely Australian wife’s green card, and she threatens nobody if this is a blanket ban. Nobody at our company will be voting Trump.


There are other means besides work visas.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:05 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Trump has suspended immigration to protect American jobs. He will be known as one of the greatest presidents we have ever had. I didn't vote for him in 2016 but I certainly will this November.

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/sta ... 01639?s=21


My biz partner is still waiting for his lovely Australian wife’s green card, and she threatens nobody if this is a blanket ban. Nobody at our company will be voting Trump.


There are other means besides work visas.


That’s what I’m talking about - if this covers both employment and family visas, it’s going to piss off a lot of people versus if it’s just the former.

He just texted me: “Are Melania’s parents going back? Then I can accept it” :lol:
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Concierge
Posts: 105
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:21 am

Aaron747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

My biz partner is still waiting for his lovely Australian wife’s green card, and she threatens nobody if this is a blanket ban. Nobody at our company will be voting Trump.


There are other means besides work visas.


That’s what I’m talking about - if this covers both employment and family visas, it’s going to piss off a lot of people versus if it’s just the former.

He just texted me: “Are Melania’s parents going back? Then I can accept it” :lol:


Someone has to write and promulgate a rule. This White House hasn't done well on that score. Add in the lawsuits, and maybe she will get in before implementation. I wish you the best!
 
speedking
Posts: 152
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:28 am

Aaron747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

My biz partner is still waiting for his lovely Australian wife’s green card, and she threatens nobody if this is a blanket ban. Nobody at our company will be voting Trump.


There are other means besides work visas.


That’s what I’m talking about - if this covers both employment and family visas, it’s going to piss off a lot of people versus if it’s just the former.

He just texted me: “Are Melania’s parents going back? Then I can accept it” :lol:


I'm afraid this is a galactic mistake. The rest of the world might retaliate by prohibiting entry for all Americans. The Europeans, Chinese, Russians together with the others might find a way to go forward without America completely.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:58 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Looks like Deblasio set up a number for people to snitch on those not following social distancing. He promised swift enforcement action. This is why I could never support a Democrat.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/18/de-blasio ... -breakers/


This is communism.

And it is pointless, in Winter the Virus will return in full force and the current measures just make sure that less people are immune.
 
Concierge
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:28 am

seahawk wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Looks like Deblasio set up a number for people to snitch on those not following social distancing. He promised swift enforcement action. This is why I could never support a Democrat.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/18/de-blasio ... -breakers/


This is communism.

And it is pointless, in Winter the Virus will return in full force and the current measures just make sure that less people are immune.


It's unpleasant and I'd say it's an unfortunate use of emergency authority, but it's not communism.

The second wave concerns me greatly too.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:22 am

The ban on even legal immigration by Pres. Trump is about him appeasing his base and some Independents in a hope to win re-election as he used it in 2016. He is getting his and his supporters great dream. One problem will be keeping out 1,000's of persons that would have legal permits to work in agriculture that could mean not enough people to do pick and process food.

As to ratting out violators of the social distancing and similar rules, I agree for I don't want me or others dying due to someone's stupidity. On Sunday, I was driving by a park that was ordered closed, as were all parks by my governor (NJ) in my town and saw some young men in a basketball court area and a woman waking. A block later, I saw a police car, got the officer's attention and told him of the violators and he proceeded to the park area. Likely the cop just told them to break it up and leave the park, no need for summonses or arrests. We all have a responsibility in this pandemic crises to each other to help reduce the infection rate to manageable levels, that may mean at times to contact law enforcement or at least call out fools.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:52 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Trump has suspended immigration to protect American jobs. He will be known as one of the greatest presidents we have ever had. I didn't vote for him in 2016 but I certainly will this November.

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/sta ... 01639?s=21


I think that you and the White House have this backwards.
Trump's reelection now hinges more on his ability to keep Americans safe and fed throughout this crisis, more than any form of economic indicator.
Americans in their 20' and 30's couldn't care less about the stock market or going back to work, as long as they can get a paycheck or unemployment money.
Americans in their 40's fear for their health and the older people in their households, their 401K's or money-making targets have taken the backseat.

Trump is also putting himself and Pence at risk by appearing at press briefings everyday.
I get it, this is his presidential campaign. But what happens if he gets Covid-19 and dies? He is part of the at-risk population.
What's to stop some CNN journalists from giving it to Trump somehow? With several CNN journalists already infected, this would seem to be child's play.
They seem to love sitting in the first row too and Dr> birx seemed to have a dry throat yesterday.

I for sure don't want to see Biden become president, but if Trump mismanages this crisis, or dies before the election, he might not get another term.
 
IgorD
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:26 pm

Harvey Weinstein, who has quite serious health issues, has managed to survive the virus, so I think Trump will manage too.

I do believe that the Germans have the most accurate estimate of the infection mortality rate, 0.37% https://reason.com/2020/04/09/prelimina ... 4-percent/

It's a bit higher than that of flu, but far less serious than naïve estimates based on the number of positively diagnosed cases.

Probably the governments of major EU countries begin to understand the mortality numbers and slowly open up.
 
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par13del
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:52 pm

ER757 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
seahawk wrote:

Support those protesting the measures and use your 1st and 2nd amendment rights. Protect freedom, fight the lock down! For a free America.


Totally agree - so long as these protesters sign a waiver for any future COVID testing or treatment.

:checkmark: This right here! I 100% defend the protesters' right to peaceful assembly. It's one of the ideals we hold most dear. But if you are blatantly disregarding a public health and safety advisory, you need to accept responsibility for the possible consequences. If you get sick, you're on your own - stay home and tough it out. You don't get to waste one minute of a health care professional's time because of your idiocy.

What about those who obey the order, stay at home, only go out to the food store for essentials and still get the virus, do they get to sue the state?
Liability is a two way street, if we hold the idiots liable and force them to suffer the consequences of their actions, we must also hold the state liable if their directives are not 100% effective.
Hence the reason why such thoughts and solutions are never helpful but easily implemented.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:33 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Trump has suspended immigration to protect American jobs. He will be known as one of the greatest presidents we have ever had. I didn't vote for him in 2016 but I certainly will this November.

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/sta ... 01639?s=21


My biz partner is still waiting for his lovely Australian wife’s green card, and she threatens nobody if this is a blanket ban. Nobody at our company will be voting Trump.


There are other means besides work visas.


Except this is supposedly a blanket ban. We will see once details come out.

And even for work visa, supposedly the plan only put a stop to certain sector but not "critical" one.

Last thing? Visa processing had been paused for a month already anyway.

Tl;dr: The whole thing is a sham. What job is there for LEGAL immigrants to "steal" anyway? Either those jobs already go to the immigrant (via company sponsored work visa), or the job no longer exist. So you are telling me an immigrant on H1B visa that is going to work at an IT job steal a position from somebody that is layoff from retail or aviation sector (the frontline, not the IT personnel at those companies).
 
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casinterest
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:10 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

My biz partner is still waiting for his lovely Australian wife’s green card, and she threatens nobody if this is a blanket ban. Nobody at our company will be voting Trump.


There are other means besides work visas.


Except this is supposedly a blanket ban. We will see once details come out.

And even for work visa, supposedly the plan only put a stop to certain sector but not "critical" one.

Last thing? Visa processing had been paused for a month already anyway.

Tl;dr: The whole thing is a sham. What job is there for LEGAL immigrants to "steal" anyway? Either those jobs already go to the immigrant (via company sponsored work visa), or the job no longer exist. So you are telling me an immigrant on H1B visa that is going to work at an IT job steal a position from somebody that is layoff from retail or aviation sector (the frontline, not the IT personnel at those companies).



It is all about Trump being a xenophobic nationalist racist and appealing to people in his base that support such policies, Aryan elites and such. There is no valid reason for the ban.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:22 pm

Here comes Dan Patrick of Texas again with more on his plans to open up. Apparently not enough people have died in Texas yet.. It is a compelling argument, but he has no real plans for how to get the medical staff up to speed.


https://www.krgv.com/news/dan-patrick-s ... s-country-

“I’m sorry to say that I was right on this and I’m thankful that now we are now finally beginning to open up Texas and other states because it’s been long overdue,” he told interview host Tucker Carlson.

“What I said when I was with you that night is there are more important things than living. And that’s saving this country for my children and my grandchildren and saving his country for all of us,” Patrick said. “I don’t want to die, nobody wants to die, but man we’ve got to take some risks and get back in the game and get this country back up and running.”
..

“Let’s face reality of where we are: In Texas, we have 29 million people. We’ve lost 495 and every life is valuable, but 500 people out of 29 million and we’re locked down,” Patrick said.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
Etika
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:48 pm

The medicine touted by Trump as a good treatment seems to have slight problem: persons treated with it have died more often than without it: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/2 ... udy-198590

Researchers analyzed medical records of 368 male veterans hospitalized with confirmed coronavirus infection at Veterans Health Administration medical centers who died or were discharged by April 11.

About 28% who were given hydroxychloroquine plus usual care died, versus 11% of those getting routine care alone. About 22% of those getting the drug plus azithromycin died too, but the difference between that group and usual care was not considered large enough to rule out other factors that could have affected survival.


Here the very small-scale tests with it were stopped pretty quickly as the side effects were more serious than expected. And it seems like the side effects are serious enough that one is better off without it than with it.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:15 am

Here are the numbers for opening the government up early.

Grab your darts and take a best guess.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... s-projecti

Image
In the documents, the "best guess" for how things will play out without further mitigation says that coronavirus cases and deaths would double about every five and a half days; on average, one coronavirus-infected person would spread the virus to another 2.5 people; and that 0.5% of infected people who show symptoms would die.

Four of seven experts interviewed by Public Integrity said certain assumptions in the documents, such as how deadly the virus is, are too rosy.

"Their model's way too optimistic," says Ashish Jha, director of the Harvard Global Health Institute. He says the government was low-balling the fatality rate and failed to account for overruns of hospital resources. "They're getting their analysis wrong."
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:23 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

My biz partner is still waiting for his lovely Australian wife’s green card, and she threatens nobody if this is a blanket ban. Nobody at our company will be voting Trump.


There are other means besides work visas.


Except this is supposedly a blanket ban. We will see once details come out.

And even for work visa, supposedly the plan only put a stop to certain sector but not "critical" one.

Last thing? Visa processing had been paused for a month already anyway.

Tl;dr: The whole thing is a sham. What job is there for LEGAL immigrants to "steal" anyway? Either those jobs already go to the immigrant (via company sponsored work visa), or the job no longer exist. So you are telling me an immigrant on H1B visa that is going to work at an IT job steal a position from somebody that is layoff from retail or aviation sector (the frontline, not the IT personnel at those companies).


Except they aren’t stopping H1B, seem to be keeping farm labor visas in place, and are putting a 60-day stop on family based green cards. Totally illogical.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3524
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:47 am

Aaron747 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

There are other means besides work visas.


Except this is supposedly a blanket ban. We will see once details come out.

And even for work visa, supposedly the plan only put a stop to certain sector but not "critical" one.

Last thing? Visa processing had been paused for a month already anyway.

Tl;dr: The whole thing is a sham. What job is there for LEGAL immigrants to "steal" anyway? Either those jobs already go to the immigrant (via company sponsored work visa), or the job no longer exist. So you are telling me an immigrant on H1B visa that is going to work at an IT job steal a position from somebody that is layoff from retail or aviation sector (the frontline, not the IT personnel at those companies).


Except they aren’t stopping H1B, seem to be keeping farm labor visas in place, and are putting a 60-day stop on family based green cards. Totally illogical.


From what I read, he simply stop green cards just bc it is the easiest to do.

But like you said, it is totally illogical. Using the economy is also total BS.
 
Kno
Posts: 559
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:47 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Trump has suspended immigration to protect American jobs. He will be known as one of the greatest presidents we have ever had. I didn't vote for him in 2016 but I certainly will this November.

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/sta ... 01639?s=21


No he wont, because even if he can edge a voting majority, there will always be a large percentage of the population who actually care about the character of the person in office.
 
Eyad89
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:08 am

Etika wrote:
The medicine touted by Trump as a good treatment seems to have slight problem: persons treated with it have died more often than without it: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/2 ... udy-198590

Researchers analyzed medical records of 368 male veterans hospitalized with confirmed coronavirus infection at Veterans Health Administration medical centers who died or were discharged by April 11.

About 28% who were given hydroxychloroquine plus usual care died, versus 11% of those getting routine care alone. About 22% of those getting the drug plus azithromycin died too, but the difference between that group and usual care was not considered large enough to rule out other factors that could have affected survival.


Here the very small-scale tests with it were stopped pretty quickly as the side effects were more serious than expected. And it seems like the side effects are serious enough that one is better off without it than with it.


It's crazy how political affiliation makes some people illogical. whether or not hydroxychloroquine can be a good drug against COVID is a purely scientific topic, yet we see conservatives who still don't even believe in evolution step up and defend this drug just because Trump said so. They believe Trump over all the epidemiologists and attend public protests during the crisis just to 'own the libs'. Thing is, They might be throwing their lives away for nothing, you won't be owning anyone when all what you are doing is prove that you are stupid.
Last edited by Eyad89 on Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:15 am

Eyad89 wrote:
Etika wrote:
The medicine touted by Trump as a good treatment seems to have slight problem: persons treated with it have died more often than without it: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/2 ... udy-198590

Researchers analyzed medical records of 368 male veterans hospitalized with confirmed coronavirus infection at Veterans Health Administration medical centers who died or were discharged by April 11.

About 28% who were given hydroxychloroquine plus usual care died, versus 11% of those getting routine care alone. About 22% of those getting the drug plus azithromycin died too, but the difference between that group and usual care was not considered large enough to rule out other factors that could have affected survival.


Here the very small-scale tests with it were stopped pretty quickly as the side effects were more serious than expected. And it seems like the side effects are serious enough that one is better off without it than with it.


It's crazy how political affiliation makes some people illogical. whether or not hydroxychloroquine can be a good drug against COVID is a purely scientific topic, yet we see conservatives who still don' even t believe in evolution step up and defend this drug just because Trump said so. They believe Trump over all the epidemiologists and attend public protests during the crisis just to 'own the libs'. Thing is, They might be throwing their lives away for nothing, you won't be owning anyone when all what you are doing is prove that you are stupid.


This pretty much says it all, doesn't it? Level of education (or lack thereof) is key to 45's support.

https://twitter.com/JohnJHarwood/status ... 85698?s=20
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:28 am

Social Security Beneficiaries: You Might Need to Act Now to Get Your Stimulus Check

Most Social Security recipients will be paid automatically, but there are some big exceptions.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/04/ ... t-now.aspx

If the IRS is getting your information from your Social Security earnings statement (SSA Form 1099) or your railroad benefits statement, there's a chance your details won't have been loaded into the system yet.

As of 4/21/2020

Note: If you receive an SSA or RRB Form 1099 or SSI or VA benefits, your information is not yet available in this application.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
Eyad89
Posts: 664
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Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:40 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
This is an interesting view of this, we all have been fed the same thing over and over from the MSM, about panic and fear and hide under our caves.

Take a look at a Senior Epidemiologist from Sweden. He seems to believe that eventually all us of will surrender and do the Swedish method, we all are avoiding the inevitable.


Swedish expert: why lockdowns are the wrong policy

That was one of the more extraordinary interviews we have done here at UnHerd.

Professor Johan Giesecke, one of the world’s most senior epidemiologists, advisor to the Swedish Government (he hired Anders Tegnell who is currently directing Swedish strategy), the first Chief Scientist of the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, and an advisor to the director general of the WHO, lays out with typically Swedish bluntness why he thinks:

UK policy on lockdown and other European countries are not evidence-based
The correct policy is to protect the old and the frail only
This will eventually lead to herd immunity as a “by-product”
The initial UK response, before the “180 degree U-turn”, was better
The Imperial College paper was “not very good” and he has never seen an unpublished paper have so much policy impact
The paper was very much too pessimistic
Any such models are a dubious basis for public policy anyway
The flattening of the curve is due to the most vulnerable dying first as much as the lockdown
The results will eventually be similar for all countries
Covid-19 is a “mild disease” and similar to the flu, and it was the novelty of the disease that scared people.
The actual fatality rate of Covid-19 is the region of 0.1%
At least 50% of the population of both the UK and Sweden will be shown to have already had the disease when mass antibody testing becomes available


https://unherd.com/thepost/coming-up-ep ... om-sweden/

This is an expert opinion outside of the 'conventional wisdom' opinion from our current policy and decision makers.



Let's compare Sweden to its neighboring Scandinavian countries where they were hit by COVID by more or less the same time and they share similar life and health standards:

Norway: 182 deaths,
Finland: 141 deaths
Denmark: 370 deaths
Sweden: 1765 death. That's the 14th worst death count in the world for a country that only has 10 million people.

This strategy is being seriously opposed by many Swedish health experts and academics BTW.
 
Scorpio
Posts: 5043
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - April 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:30 am

Eyad89 wrote:


Let's compare Sweden to its neighboring Scandinavian countries where they were hit by COVID by more or less the same time and they share similar life and health standards:

Norway: 182 deaths,
Finland: 141 deaths
Denmark: 370 deaths
Sweden: 1765 death. That's the 14th worst death count in the world for a country that only has 10 million people.

This strategy is being seriously opposed by many Swedish health experts and academics BTW.

Not only that, but Sweden's daily numbers aren't getting any better, they're slowly getting worse: there's no drop in daily new infections as there is in the other Scandinavian countries (and most other European countries), and the number of daily deaths is still rising, where it is falling in the other countries. This epidemiologist predicts everyone else will follow Sweden't example, I think the opposite may be true, with Sweden shutting down at around the time everyone begins to start their countries back up again.

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