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Tugger
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Lessons on trolling

Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:45 pm

Since we have so many online in the world today, I figured it might be fun, smart even, to point out and highlight the tools of trolling. The "how to's" what to watch out so you cannot avoid them or not fall into being one yourself!

Just a simple observation on my part the number one thing for a troll is to sound (read) reasonable even as they say unreasonable things and refuse to be reasonable (ultimately). They may momentarily seem to be reasonable but will then walk back and push a discussion to whatever troll they were going for. To bring the discussion to a standstill, making it go in circles.

What things have you seen and learned? (And yes, there will likely be trolls in this thread too.)

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:55 pm

I think a good place to look is the Schopenhauer's 38 strategems, 38 ways to win an argument. When You realise a troll is employing these strategems (knowingly or otherwise) is to link to a place where the list is held and them simply start listing the numbers. It will then show them that their arguments are below you and that they are simply repeating others and will back down.

The other part is the art of the trope, repeating an idea as if it is a given enough times and suddenly "pseudo defacto". The trick here is to recognise that the repetition is beginning before it is used as the truth, that way you can demonstrate later that it was already being used incorrectly. It is somwhat similar to memifiaction. These happen very frequently around these parts and is used by those good with language but don't appreciate the technical nuance of a scenario, those who don't wish to learn the technical side can be swayed by meme rather than the facts, "Tight Light 7W" is one to search for to see this process in action.

Fred
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DL717
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:55 pm

You trolling us bro? :rotfl:
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:32 pm

There is a difference between trolls and astroturfers(paid trolls). The second ones are the nasty ones.

I would suggest learning to identify an astroturfer, do what agitates them the most them to a point, they should feel getting paid to do this is not worth and find another job.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bYAQ-ZZtEU

In the process, if you get banished from a site, so be it, for a good cause.
All posts are just opinions.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:23 pm

I don't troll I use google. Ask BN747 I am the Googlizer.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
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casinterest
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:46 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
There is a difference between trolls and astroturfers(paid trolls). The second ones are the nasty ones.

I would suggest learning to identify an astroturfer, do what agitates them the most them to a point, they should feel getting paid to do this is not worth and find another job.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bYAQ-ZZtEU

In the process, if you get banished from a site, so be it, for a good cause.



This is actually a good video. It would be a good one for many people to watch, especially those that prescribe to certain administrations and parties that make large use of this technique
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
meecrob
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:52 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
I don't troll I use google. Ask BN747 I am the Googlizer.


So you want me to ask a troll if another troll uses google before trolling? Seems legit.
 
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seb146
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:15 pm

meecrob wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I don't troll I use google. Ask BN747 I am the Googlizer.


So you want me to ask a troll if another troll uses google before trolling? Seems legit.


I have to give Nik credit: when I started getting into political posts on this site, I would make comments and he would ask for a source. Now, when I make a claim, I post the source as well. Nik taught me that and I thank him. I think that is what he and BN747 are talking about.

The problem is that trolls (not Nik, but I can think of some legitimate trolls here) will attack the source and not what is in the link.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
CaptHadley
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:25 pm

Just wondering, is it trolling or what? New screen name pops up, starts madly posting about one subject in one area, nothing else. Screen name suddenly stops posting, new screen name pops up, starts madly posting in the exact same area about the exact same subject. Why would you do that? What would be the purpose?
 
N212R
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:25 pm

An anti-Troll inoculate from a poster with a professional buffoon as his profile alter-ego. Thanks for the you can't make this stuff up laugh.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:41 pm

N212R wrote:
An anti-Troll inoculate from a poster with a professional buffoon as his profile alter-ego. Thanks for the you can't make this stuff up laugh.

And...? You are faceless... What is that supposed to mean?

And I will note (with a little sniff and over-done air of superiority :snooty: ) that I actually paid a fee to come on board with A.net those many years ago. Something I would love to see again as it is the best way to limit trolls (bans have real impact and astroturfers prefer to not spend cash for an account)

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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seb146
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:58 pm

CaptHadley wrote:
Just wondering, is it trolling or what? New screen name pops up, starts madly posting about one subject in one area, nothing else. Screen name suddenly stops posting, new screen name pops up, starts madly posting in the exact same area about the exact same subject. Why would you do that? What would be the purpose?


On a faceless forum such as this, it makes them look like they are greater in number. There may only be one person but four "posters" can back each other up. One person can point to the many people who all have the same opinion and say "look how popular this is" when, in reality, it is just one person.

I have been accused of being a troll. Some posters whom I disagree with vehemently have been accused of being trolls. The odd thing is, those who accuse us of being trolls have not been posting long. I can list three screen names I always seem to disagree with but the conversations are always spirited and something I enjoy. I hate seeing them being accused of being trolls.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
BN747
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:52 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
I don't troll I use google. Ask BN747 I am the Googlizer.


Meet the only candidate whom even a dedicated user as such ...just might as well have no use for it. Because nothing is ever learned, defying the purpose and usefulness of Google every step of the way.

Google should 'enlighten'...and yet somehow, select hardcore users only enhance staid ignorance.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
NIKV69
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:35 pm

BN747 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I don't troll I use google. Ask BN747 I am the Googlizer.


Meet the only candidate whom even a dedicated user as such ...just might as well have no use for it. Because nothing is ever learned, defying the purpose and usefulness of Google every step of the way.

Google should 'enlighten'...and yet somehow, select hardcore users only enhance staid ignorance.

BN747



meecrob wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I don't troll I use google. Ask BN747 I am the Googlizer.


So you want me to ask a troll if another troll uses google before trolling? Seems legit.


He can't help himself. :highfive:
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
BN747
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:53 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I don't troll I use google. Ask BN747 I am the Googlizer.


Meet the only candidate whom even a dedicated user as such ...just might as well have no use for it. Because nothing is ever learned, defying the purpose and usefulness of Google every step of the way.

Google should 'enlighten'...and yet somehow, select hardcore users only enhance staid ignorance.

BN747



meecrob wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I don't troll I use google. Ask BN747 I am the Googlizer.


So you want me to ask a troll if another troll uses google before trolling? Seems legit.


He can't help himself. :highfive:


You and your hero, exactly...no one can.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:47 am

I have been accused of trolling maybe once or twice. My question, when you post a legitimate link, ask a legitimate question or state an opinion you have when does it become trolling?
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Sokes
Posts: 1129
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:13 am

DL717 wrote:
You trolling us bro? :rotfl:

Beautiful!

seb146 wrote:
I can list three screen names I always seem to disagree with but the conversations are always spirited and something I enjoy. I hate seeing them being accused of being trolls.

Good attitude.

Image
source: https://libertylit2309.wordpress.com/20 ... to-say-it/

"In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

While I don't like to sow discord, I sometimes post provocative messages. That's because I enjoy provocative messages of others that make me question my common wisdom. I however believe such provocations should have a certain level of intellectual depth.
Then in non-aviation there are a lot of nonsense discussions which I enjoy. "Should Arnold Schwarzenegger make advertisement for Austrian Airlines" was a real highlight. The topic unfortunately got deleted. But usually a.net gives those of us who enjoy a little nonsense some space away from aviation topics, which I appreciate.

I believe a.net users are a quite mature lot. Discussions are civilized. People like myself respect that aviation topics are not meant for trolling. Those who prefer serious discussions accept that some like do do jokes from time to time. I also observed that good jokes are accepted, even if off topic. I believe it is as good as it gets. Maybe aviation is not a topic to attract trolls. Or maybe a.net users don't react as they desire.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
Posts: 1129
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:01 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
There is a difference between trolls and astroturfers(paid trolls). The second ones are the nasty ones.

I would suggest learning to identify an astroturfer, do what agitates them the most them to a point, they should feel getting paid to do this is not worth and find another job.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bYAQ-ZZtEU

In the process, if you get banished from a site, so be it, for a good cause.


Off topic: I discuss media, not trolls. Skip if not interested.

Ted talks. Some are really interesting, some are nonsense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esPRsT-lmw8 is very interesting until it makes outrageous claims from 8:45 onward. 246.000 likes and only 7.000 dislikes. According to what do people judge the quality of statements? Hope?
Bad from the beginning is this video, total rubbish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_6vDLq64gE
It has 176.000 likes and 12.000 dislikes.

I am not sure if I agree with that video from your link. I read about Cholesterol on Wikipedia and it was clearly mentioned that there is a minority opinion that disagrees with widespread use of medication. A lot of space was provided for the arguments of the minority opinion.
Isn't it to protect from astroturfer that Wikipedia bans certain people from editing? Of course that's not a 100% save method.

Earlier I read on Wikipedia that Harvey Lee Oswald worked on a U2 spy plane site in Japan. Other soldiers were surprised that it was tolerated that he read magazines in Russian there. Later that info was canceled. Well, who knows:
https://www.nytimes.com/1978/03/27/arch ... tells.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Air_Facility_Atsugi

If I google about Keynes's first "proposal for an international clearing union" (=bancor), I only get later versions which are political compromises and therefore nonsense. Before 2008 there was no problem to get his original proposal on google.

But overall the media are free. I don't say google is faultless, but it is very good. People listen to the TV news speaker, not "crazy" conspiracy theories. Those who want to know can know. If people refuse to listen to evidence because the majority believes otherwise, one can't help it.
Freedom to choose also always means the freedom to choose wrong, as Milton Friedman says.
But then if I see likes and dislikes on the Ted videos above, the majority is probably well advised to listen to the news speaker instead of conspiracy theorists.

At any rate I believe the Ted talk exaggerates the risk by astroturfer.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:55 am

I've been accused as being a paid Boeing troll. Why would Boeing spend anything for any troll on A.net. They don't seem to be a big advertiser here. I am sure I can get Delta convinced that they need a dozen 779's. LOL!

But it does really seem like they have a very detailed playbook.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:20 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
I've been accused as being a paid Boeing troll. Why would Boeing spend anything for any troll on A.net. They don't seem to be a big advertiser here. I am sure I can get Delta convinced that they need a dozen 779's. LOL!

But it does really seem like they have a very detailed playbook.

If you want to be accused of being a paid troll, go to a conspiracy theory forum and debate them. You don't even need to be obnoxious, just point out an obvious flaw or two. It's maddening on some of those sites. You'll be accused of being CIA faster than a speeding bullet

I've seen posters here be accused of being Russian trolls. I think this is part of an annoying trend I've seen, modern day red scare or whatever, anyone being pro Russia or anti Dem is seen as a Russian troll.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying there are Russian trolls, but think about it... what is the best way to spread disinformation? Have a paid Russian dude spend hours on a single forum like ours and give detailed (even if flawed) posts?

No, they're going to go on the largest sites with much more traffic and spam shitty memes and copy/paste generic messages en masse from multiple accounts causing confusion or making it appear many people believe X or Y. Probably something along the lines of "the Dems are corrupt, it is proven they stole 2016 and they're doing it again 2020," or they'll post a picture with questionable or false information

No thought will go into it, they probably won't reply or they'll reply with more simple spam, maybe on a different account. They can do that 50 times in the span of time it takes for certain pro Russian posters here to type up their responses. There's no way they're paid trolls, it's just way too inefficient
 
Sokes
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:57 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
I've been accused as being a paid Boeing troll. Why would Boeing spend anything for any troll on A.net. They don't seem to be a big advertiser here. I am sure I can get Delta convinced that they need a dozen 779's. LOL!

But it does really seem like they have a very detailed playbook.

I never had the impression that anyone here is paid by Boeing or Airbus. There may be employees who argue out of a sense of loyalty. Your joke brings it to the point.


DeltaMD90 wrote:
If you want to be accused of being a paid troll, go to a conspiracy theory forum and debate them. You don't even need to be obnoxious, just point out an obvious flaw or two. It's maddening on some of those sites. You'll be accused of being CIA faster than a speeding bullet.

We had the discussion before. I want to try myself. Do you have a link to one of those sites?
I share the rest of your analysis.

That apart I have another question: Why should Russia not try to influence elections? If there is an easy method to harm democrats, would US citizens with a dislike for democrats not use it?
It actually is an argument against the freedom of the internet. It's true, there are a lot of false claims. China thinks there has to be a controller.
I think children in school should get a lot of training in critical thinking. False claims can even happen in reputable newspapers.

Recently I read the following story:
Hindu hardliners in the government of Gujarat changed school books. The school books now include the following story:
When god baked man he removed him too early. This became the white man. At the next trial he kept man too long. This became the black man. Finally he got it right. That was the Indian man.

Even my son who is still a child started laughing. Possibly there is not even a political background. I rather believe it's just a joke.
People who think "Really! This party shouldn't be in power." because they believe it should either stay away from social media or not go to vote.

To come back to topic: The "god bakes man" story is the type of trolling I enjoy.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:56 pm

Fanboys are just passionate about their cause or belief, they may be sarcastic to members with opposing believes or opinions, but they are generally a good sport.
Employees may defend or explain their employer's position, again no harm no foul. In fact, they unnecessarily get the blame most of the time.

Every entity has an outsourced image management service, equipped with aged/new accounts and VPNs, these personas are the worst on the internet.

Their goal is to jump on anyone remotely saying anything doesn't fit their client's tagline. These are the ones unnecessarily ask for evidence, call people with dissenting opinions conspiracy theorists, and use forum rules to get posts deleted. They have no position or knowledge on the topic, their job is to defend the paid client at any cost. They are the ones ready to insult other members. The ultimate goal is to wear down dissent by repeating the same lines time and again. They also post lengthy well-prepared texts, try to deflect the discussion, pretend to agree sometimes to gain confidence.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:28 pm

Sokes wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
I've been accused as being a paid Boeing troll. Why would Boeing spend anything for any troll on A.net. They don't seem to be a big advertiser here. I am sure I can get Delta convinced that they need a dozen 779's. LOL!

But it does really seem like they have a very detailed playbook.

I never had the impression that anyone here is paid by Boeing or Airbus. There may be employees who argue out of a sense of loyalty. Your joke brings it to the point.


DeltaMD90 wrote:
If you want to be accused of being a paid troll, go to a conspiracy theory forum and debate them. You don't even need to be obnoxious, just point out an obvious flaw or two. It's maddening on some of those sites. You'll be accused of being CIA faster than a speeding bullet.

We had the discussion before. I want to try myself. Do you have a link to one of those sites?
I share the rest of your analysis.

That apart I have another question: Why should Russia not try to influence elections? If there is an easy method to harm democrats, would US citizens with a dislike for democrats not use it?
It actually is an argument against the freedom of the internet. It's true, there are a lot of false claims. China thinks there has to be a controller.
I think children in school should get a lot of training in critical thinking. False claims can even happen in reputable newspapers.

Recently I read the following story:
Hindu hardliners in the government of Gujarat changed school books. The school books now include the following story:
When god baked man he removed him too early. This became the white man. At the next trial he kept man too long. This became the black man. Finally he got it right. That was the Indian man.

Even my son who is still a child started laughing. Possibly there is not even a political background. I rather believe it's just a joke.
People who think "Really! This party shouldn't be in power." because they believe it should either stay away from social media or not go to vote.

To come back to topic: The "god bakes man" story is the type of trolling I enjoy.

I can't remember, it might have been a Flat Earther website or Above Top Secret. Maybe Infowars? Probably not ATS because if IIRC, not everyone on that site is insane, and there actually is a dialogue back and forth (but perhaps I'm misremembering).

It was long ago and it was really insightful because, well, I'm not paid by the CIA (or whoever) and I was accused of it for a simple challenge to the theory. I was taken aback, and how do you respond to it? You don't, if you get accused of that, the person isn't trying to have a serious conversation
 
Sokes
Posts: 1129
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Re: Lessons on trolling

Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:37 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
[
I can't remember, it might have been a Flat Earther website or Above Top Secret. Maybe Infowars? Probably not ATS because if IIRC, not everyone on that site is insane, and there actually is a dialogue back and forth (but perhaps I'm misremembering).


That's pretty cool. I suppose it's even better if one gets drunk first. Thanks for sharing.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1260927/pg1
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
meecrob
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:15 pm

Re: Lessons on trolling

Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:59 pm

seb146 wrote:
meecrob wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I don't troll I use google. Ask BN747 I am the Googlizer.


So you want me to ask a troll if another troll uses google before trolling? Seems legit.


I have to give Nik credit: when I started getting into political posts on this site, I would make comments and he would ask for a source. Now, when I make a claim, I post the source as well. Nik taught me that and I thank him. I think that is what he and BN747 are talking about.

The problem is that trolls (not Nik, but I can think of some legitimate trolls here) will attack the source and not what is in the link.


Oh, for sure! I was just being a smartass.

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