Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 8
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22328
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden's follies

Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:17 pm

apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

Your assessment of the electoral college is incorrect. Just because WI, PA and OH were close doesn't mean they decided anything. The media called them late but their result is no more important than Texas or NY or any other state. Every state counts. Which is why the electoral college is so great. Unless you lose the election and then you don't like it and you want the popular vote which gives states like RI no voice.


And, as I said, many of the people who either held their breath and voted for the clown show we have now or didn't vote at all because they both stink see the error in their ways and will vote for the Democrat. From sea to shining sea. Your states that don't matter like NY and CA and your states that only count like OH and WI. We The People, the electorate, will look over the past four years and see that we need an actual leader. Someone who has experience. Someone who thinks about the country as a whole and not just his stock portfolio and golf courses.


I don't know...the democrat who looks like he will be the nominee has doubled down against M4A or Single Payer despite the circumstances showing we need it...period...end of story. The Democratic leadership in this virus has not inspired much confidence in me either. Pelosi rammed a Stimulus package through congress that benefits big corporations and doesn't help the middle class and the poor as much. Pelosi is already talking about a new stimulus package, but that stimulus of course is tax cuts for the wealthiest 1 percent that wouldn't even enter the economy for at least a year, and don't benefit the poor at all. And this special committee she just announced is full of Corporate loyalists like Jim Clyburn. This brand of Neoliberalism is hurting the middle class to the benefit of the wealthy donors and lobbyists who are the real people that Pelosi listens to.

McConnell is no different than Pelosi either, and is much worse. But until both Pelosi and McConnell are out of Washington, nothing will change.

As for the presidential Election, what does Biden stand for other than he is not Trump? He already said M4A and Single Payer is off the table if he is elected. That is unacceptable to me. His interviews have been disastrous, and the things he has suggested Trump do to help this pandemic are already the things Trump is doing. I don't know what else the guy stands for other than he wants to maintain the status quo. I am sorry, the Status Quo is unacceptable to me at a time when Millions of Americans are losing their job through no fault of there own, and with it their health insurance at a time when it is vitally needed. And Biden is consulting with Wall Street over who his running mate should be? This guy is so out of touch its not even funny. And lets not forget there are sexual abuse allegations out there against him. And the Mainstream media is completely ignoring this? Why?

Bernie is everything Biden wasn't. The problem with Bernie is he has power with a movement behind him, but he doesn't use it, instead choosing to play kumbaya with the Democratic Establishment. I would have actually considered voting for Bernie if he was the nominee. And there aren't really a lot of people who are for M4A who are out there who could get elected. Warren was one such person, but progressives are furious with her and she has no political capital with them anymore. Al Franken was run out of town, based on an story that was never corroborated. AOC isn't old enough yet, and everyone else on the left was born outside the US so they cant even run. I just don't see how we get there at all.

You mention other running mates. Harris is a corporatist democrat. Abrams is proving to be a corporatist democrat. Whitmer is also a corporatist democrat. If you think electing Biden is going to stop the profits over people mentality of corporate America...I have oceanfront property in New Mexico to sell you.

Trump is no better than anyone else, and I would love to see him out of office. But given Biden or Trump, I don't feel I have a choice. Corporations win no matter what, and we the people lose. Its why I keep saying, the battle in America is not between Liberal and Conservative, its between Corporatism/Neoliberalism, and Populism. Biden, Trump, Schumer, Pelosi, all fall into the former category. People who fall into the Populist category would be people like AOC, Bernie Sanders, Marco Rubio, Sarah Palin, and Justin Amash. Media Populists would be Saagar Enjeti, Krystal Ball, Tucker Carlson, Bill O'Reilly, and Cenk Uygur. Media Corporatists/Neoliberals would be Sean Hannity, Rachel Maddow, Laura Ingraham, Chris Cuomo, and Don Lemon.


Obama said that same gender marriage was off the table, too, and look how that turned out. Democrats are willing to keep an open mind. Democrats are also telling the corporate world to pay workers a living wage. That unions are not bad because they can help with things like affordable health care and retirement benefits. Democrats also want every legal American to vote when it is legally possible. But, yes, do go on about how they are worse because Republicans do this and that.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/georgia- ... 2M9MwMRFGc

Democrats had to reduce funding for vote by mail in the stimulus bill because Republicans are offended by voting. As the leader of the Republicn party said if that happens "...you'd never have a Republican elected again." Totally the same.....

It also looks like GOP voters are turning on dear leader as well

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gop-vote ... Nu04jRkC7s
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
BN747
Posts: 7835
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Biden's follies

Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:49 pm

seb146 wrote:
It also looks like GOP voters are turning on dear leader as well

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gop-vote ... Nu04jRkC7s


That ad will be impactful, but if had a number counting the rising cases below the 'speakers' as it increases would be devastating.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
hashtagconfused
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:35 pm

Re: Biden's follies

Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:02 pm

seb146 wrote:
That unions are not bad because they can help with things like affordable health care and retirement benefits.


what are the unions doing to help make health care affordable?

for a thread about biden's follies there sure seems to be a lot of misdirection by the same people that scream when a thread about trump is derailed
 
NIKV69
Topic Author
Posts: 13422
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Biden's follies

Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:19 pm

hashtagconfused wrote:
seb146 wrote:
That unions are not bad because they can help with things like affordable health care and retirement benefits.


what are the unions doing to help make health care affordable?

for a thread about biden's follies there sure seems to be a lot of misdirection by the same people that scream when a thread about trump is derailed


Unions don't help with anything. Just look at what is happening in CA with AB5. Unions don't care if health care is affordable just that they company pays for it.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22328
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden's follies

Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:10 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
hashtagconfused wrote:
seb146 wrote:
That unions are not bad because they can help with things like affordable health care and retirement benefits.


what are the unions doing to help make health care affordable?

for a thread about biden's follies there sure seems to be a lot of misdirection by the same people that scream when a thread about trump is derailed


Unions don't help with anything. Just look at what is happening in CA with AB5. Unions don't care if health care is affordable just that they company pays for it.


That is the point. A union can negotiate for a number of people instead of one person negotiating.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
winginit
Posts: 2849
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Biden's follies

Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:30 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
There is no way we will have that many deaths. 4400 dead now leads me to believe we will have at worst 10 to 20 thousand as worst case and I feel it will be less.


Still think there will only be between 10K and 20K deaths in the US as we sit here at 7K at an accelerating rate that now exceeds 1K per day? I'll wait.
 
hashtagconfused
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:35 pm

Re: Biden's follies

Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:02 pm

seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
hashtagconfused wrote:

what are the unions doing to help make health care affordable?

for a thread about biden's follies there sure seems to be a lot of misdirection by the same people that scream when a thread about trump is derailed


Unions don't help with anything. Just look at what is happening in CA with AB5. Unions don't care if health care is affordable just that they company pays for it.


That is the point. A union can negotiate for a number of people instead of one person negotiating.


does the union negotiate the healthcare premiums with the providers? so does that mean companies that have union employees pay lower premiums than companies that do not have union employees?

or are you referring to the amount the employee pays which is completely different than the cost of healthcare to the company.
 
NIKV69
Topic Author
Posts: 13422
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Biden's follies

Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:48 am

Say it so Joe!

https://nypost.com/2020/04/03/joe-biden ... SocialFlow

This won't sit well with AOC
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22328
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden's follies

Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:16 am

hashtagconfused wrote:
seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

Unions don't help with anything. Just look at what is happening in CA with AB5. Unions don't care if health care is affordable just that they company pays for it.


That is the point. A union can negotiate for a number of people instead of one person negotiating.


does the union negotiate the healthcare premiums with the providers? so does that mean companies that have union employees pay lower premiums than companies that do not have union employees?

or are you referring to the amount the employee pays which is completely different than the cost of healthcare to the company.


Both. Unions (any large group, really) can negotiate a lower rate than a single person. A union (any large group, really) can tell an insurance company "this is who you will be covering so the risk is spread over this many people". This is why single payer makes sense. The risk is spread over millions of people rather than individual to individual. I know this is bad for corporations but, for people who want to live our best life, it is a pretty good deal.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
hashtagconfused
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:35 pm

Re: Biden's follies

Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:10 pm

seb146 wrote:
hashtagconfused wrote:
seb146 wrote:

That is the point. A union can negotiate for a number of people instead of one person negotiating.


does the union negotiate the healthcare premiums with the providers? so does that mean companies that have union employees pay lower premiums than companies that do not have union employees?

or are you referring to the amount the employee pays which is completely different than the cost of healthcare to the company.


Both. Unions (any large group, really) can negotiate a lower rate than a single person. A union (any large group, really) can tell an insurance company "this is who you will be covering so the risk is spread over this many people". This is why single payer makes sense. The risk is spread over millions of people rather than individual to individual. I know this is bad for corporations but, for people who want to live our best life, it is a pretty good deal.



do you have a link to information about how companies with union employees has lower premiums than a company with non union employees?

the cost of health insurance is not the same thing as the cost of health care.
 
User avatar
OA412
Moderator
Posts: 4779
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

Re: Biden's follies

Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:34 am

winginit wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
There is no way we will have that many deaths. 4400 dead now leads me to believe we will have at worst 10 to 20 thousand as worst case and I feel it will be less.


Still think there will only be between 10K and 20K deaths in the US as we sit here at 7K at an accelerating rate that now exceeds 1K per day? I'll wait.

And as of now we’ve hit 8400. We’re going to reach 10,000 by tomorrow or Monday.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6266
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Re: Biden's follies

Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:40 am

In the US, the daily number of newly infected and deaths is still doubling every two or three days. Probably a couple weeks until they start to level off.

Very sad, and scary.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22328
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden's follies

Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:45 am

hashtagconfused wrote:
seb146 wrote:
hashtagconfused wrote:

does the union negotiate the healthcare premiums with the providers? so does that mean companies that have union employees pay lower premiums than companies that do not have union employees?

or are you referring to the amount the employee pays which is completely different than the cost of healthcare to the company.


Both. Unions (any large group, really) can negotiate a lower rate than a single person. A union (any large group, really) can tell an insurance company "this is who you will be covering so the risk is spread over this many people". This is why single payer makes sense. The risk is spread over millions of people rather than individual to individual. I know this is bad for corporations but, for people who want to live our best life, it is a pretty good deal.



do you have a link to information about how companies with union employees has lower premiums than a company with non union employees?

the cost of health insurance is not the same thing as the cost of health care.


Right. The "cost of health care" is things like the endless Biktarvy and Dupixent and Aimovig commercials and bonuses to board members and paying for meetings at golf resorts

The cost of health insurance, which we non-union workers can no longer afford without ACA is doctor visits and cancer treatments and pre- and post-natal care

https://www.unionplus.org/page/benefits ... membership
http://northcountrycarpenter.org/pdf/Un ... 0graph.pdf
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22328
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden's follies

Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:47 am

rfields5421 wrote:
In the US, the daily number of newly infected and deaths is still doubling every two or three days. Probably a couple weeks until they start to level off.

Very sad, and scary.


That still has zero to do with affordable health care. It is just the right trying to rebrand the debate.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
apodino
Posts: 3877
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: Biden's follies

Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:45 am

seb146 wrote:
hashtagconfused wrote:
seb146 wrote:

That is the point. A union can negotiate for a number of people instead of one person negotiating.


does the union negotiate the healthcare premiums with the providers? so does that mean companies that have union employees pay lower premiums than companies that do not have union employees?

or are you referring to the amount the employee pays which is completely different than the cost of healthcare to the company.


Both. Unions (any large group, really) can negotiate a lower rate than a single person. A union (any large group, really) can tell an insurance company "this is who you will be covering so the risk is spread over this many people". This is why single payer makes sense. The risk is spread over millions of people rather than individual to individual. I know this is bad for corporations but, for people who want to live our best life, it is a pretty good deal.


That is the thing...is it really bad for corporations aside from big Pharma and Big Insurance? Think about it....one of the big components of Labor Costs at big corporations is Health Insurance. Do you have any idea how much money corporations (and also small business) would save in a M4A system where they no longer have to pay most of the cost of health insurance for their employees? Unless the corporation is a big health insurer, or maybe a big Drug Company, there is really no downside for corporations to go to a M4A system. Maybe they get hit with slightly higher taxes, but overall, they will come out ahead, and this has been well documented by many economists who have studied this issue.

NIKV69 wrote:
Say it so Joe!

https://nypost.com/2020/04/03/joe-biden ... SocialFlow

This won't sit well with AOC

As I mentioned in another thread, Biden is making the wrong argument here. He may be factually correct that M4A would not have slowed the spread, but he conveniently ignores the millions who will lose their health insurance through no fault of their own simply because their company had to lay them off through no fault of their own. And now without health insurance they cannot get treatment for other issues that they should seek. Not to mention the fact that insurance companies are already looking to profit off of this and are already talking about jacking up premiums 40 percent for 2021. This is unsustainable and it just shows that no matter who provides private insurance, their priority is to their bottom line, your health be damned. This is the type of rhetoric coming from Biden that is going to get progressives to stay at home and sit on their couch come election day. Bernie has a lot of leverage here, and because he didn't use it and chose the Kumbaya route instead, he is not going to get the nomination, and look at who the Democrats are nominating? And your right it may not sit well with AOC. But the funny thing about the bailout that passed last week. AOC made that great floor speech before the "vote." The people who most agreed with what she said that day are actually listeners of Conservative Talk Radio. A bunch of them called up the next day and said they agreed with her. Think about that.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 11972
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Biden's follies

Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:29 am

winginit wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
There is no way we will have that many deaths. 4400 dead now leads me to believe we will have at worst 10 to 20 thousand as worst case and I feel it will be less.


Still think there will only be between 10K and 20K deaths in the US as we sit here at 7K at an accelerating rate that now exceeds 1K per day? I'll wait.


Nick is politically astute but will not answer questions that involve scientific reasoning. He's just putting his wild darts theory out there and won't analyze further.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
hashtagconfused
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:35 pm

Re: Biden's follies

Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:24 pm

seb146 wrote:
hashtagconfused wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Both. Unions (any large group, really) can negotiate a lower rate than a single person. A union (any large group, really) can tell an insurance company "this is who you will be covering so the risk is spread over this many people". This is why single payer makes sense. The risk is spread over millions of people rather than individual to individual. I know this is bad for corporations but, for people who want to live our best life, it is a pretty good deal.



do you have a link to information about how companies with union employees has lower premiums than a company with non union employees?

the cost of health insurance is not the same thing as the cost of health care.


Right. The "cost of health care" is things like the endless Biktarvy and Dupixent and Aimovig commercials and bonuses to board members and paying for meetings at golf resorts

The cost of health insurance, which we non-union workers can no longer afford without ACA is doctor visits and cancer treatments and pre- and post-natal care

https://www.unionplus.org/page/benefits ... membership
http://northcountrycarpenter.org/pdf/Un ... 0graph.pdf


i didn't see anything in either of those links that discussed how the cost of healthcare or even health insurance for that matter, are being reduced.

doctor visits, cancer treatments, pre and post natal care, etc are all the costs of healthcare. health insurance is the price paid to someone else to take on the risk of paying to covering those services should they be and when they are needed. spreading the individuals risk for the needs of those services over a period of time rather than paying for the service all at once.

pharmaceutical commercials, golf trips, and bonuses are all what contribute to the cost of medicine. in 2018 approx 480 billion dollars was spent on medicines in the US. that equates to a little under $1300 per person. if that was cut in half would that make healthcare affordable? the average cost of healthcare per person was about $11,000 in 2018. what is the magic "affordable" number?
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22328
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden's follies

Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:00 pm

hashtagconfused wrote:
seb146 wrote:
hashtagconfused wrote:


do you have a link to information about how companies with union employees has lower premiums than a company with non union employees?

the cost of health insurance is not the same thing as the cost of health care.


Right. The "cost of health care" is things like the endless Biktarvy and Dupixent and Aimovig commercials and bonuses to board members and paying for meetings at golf resorts

The cost of health insurance, which we non-union workers can no longer afford without ACA is doctor visits and cancer treatments and pre- and post-natal care

https://www.unionplus.org/page/benefits ... membership
http://northcountrycarpenter.org/pdf/Un ... 0graph.pdf


i didn't see anything in either of those links that discussed how the cost of healthcare or even health insurance for that matter, are being reduced.

doctor visits, cancer treatments, pre and post natal care, etc are all the costs of healthcare. health insurance is the price paid to someone else to take on the risk of paying to covering those services should they be and when they are needed. spreading the individuals risk for the needs of those services over a period of time rather than paying for the service all at once.

pharmaceutical commercials, golf trips, and bonuses are all what contribute to the cost of medicine. in 2018 approx 480 billion dollars was spent on medicines in the US. that equates to a little under $1300 per person. if that was cut in half would that make healthcare affordable? the average cost of healthcare per person was about $11,000 in 2018. what is the magic "affordable" number?


If your numbers were actually correct, that would be great. Your numbers are not correct. People are paying much, much, much more than that and not receiving much in return. I would like to see where you get your numbers. In the links I provided, it shows that union workers pay less than non union workers for health care.

It also occurs to me that you are splitting hairs until you can declare victory. I don't understand why we need to defend the for-profit health care system. Please explain. Why is for-profit so much better than affordable health care for all?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
hashtagconfused
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:35 pm

Re: Biden's follies

Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:21 pm

seb146 wrote:
If your numbers were actually correct, that would be great. Your numbers are not correct. People are paying much, much, much more than that and not receiving much in return. I would like to see where you get your numbers. In the links I provided, it shows that union workers pay less than non union workers for health care.

It also occurs to me that you are splitting hairs until you can declare victory. I don't understand why we need to defend the for-profit health care system. Please explain. Why is for-profit so much better than affordable health care for all?


https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics ... Historical

https://www.statista.com/statistics/238 ... -medicine/

what are the correct numbers?

employee contributions is not the same as cost of health care or insurance. if a cheeseburger costs $5 and you pay for it yourself, it costs $5. if i buy it and hand it to you, it still costs $5.

something can be for profit and still be affordable. again, what amount would be considered affordable?
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22328
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden's follies

Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:19 pm

hashtagconfused wrote:
seb146 wrote:
If your numbers were actually correct, that would be great. Your numbers are not correct. People are paying much, much, much more than that and not receiving much in return. I would like to see where you get your numbers. In the links I provided, it shows that union workers pay less than non union workers for health care.

It also occurs to me that you are splitting hairs until you can declare victory. I don't understand why we need to defend the for-profit health care system. Please explain. Why is for-profit so much better than affordable health care for all?


https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics ... Historical

https://www.statista.com/statistics/238 ... -medicine/

what are the correct numbers?

employee contributions is not the same as cost of health care or insurance. if a cheeseburger costs $5 and you pay for it yourself, it costs $5. if i buy it and hand it to you, it still costs $5.

something can be for profit and still be affordable. again, what amount would be considered affordable?


IF health care spending were $11,700 per person last year, that could be reasonable for an individual. For many of us who are only making $25,000 or less per year, that is almost half our income.

See the problem?

It is not about cheeseburgers. This is about people's lives. The party of "every life is sacred" is putting profits ahead of people. There is a "sweet spot" where health care companies make profits AND people are able to get basic treatment and care instead of going to the ER for anything and everything. The United States refuses to find that "sweet spot" like many other countries have.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
apodino
Posts: 3877
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: Biden's follies

Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:06 am

seb146 wrote:
hashtagconfused wrote:
seb146 wrote:
If your numbers were actually correct, that would be great. Your numbers are not correct. People are paying much, much, much more than that and not receiving much in return. I would like to see where you get your numbers. In the links I provided, it shows that union workers pay less than non union workers for health care.

It also occurs to me that you are splitting hairs until you can declare victory. I don't understand why we need to defend the for-profit health care system. Please explain. Why is for-profit so much better than affordable health care for all?


https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics ... Historical

https://www.statista.com/statistics/238 ... -medicine/

what are the correct numbers?

employee contributions is not the same as cost of health care or insurance. if a cheeseburger costs $5 and you pay for it yourself, it costs $5. if i buy it and hand it to you, it still costs $5.

something can be for profit and still be affordable. again, what amount would be considered affordable?


This is true, unfortunately in the age we live in when you have something "for profit", profit usually becomes the motive and if companies can make more profit by charging more they will do so. They don't care about affordability, all they care about is profit. Heck these companies might as well be governed by the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition.

seb146 wrote:

IF health care spending were $11,700 per person last year, that could be reasonable for an individual. For many of us who are only making $25,000 or less per year, that is almost half our income.

See the problem?

It is not about cheeseburgers. This is about people's lives. The party of "every life is sacred" is putting profits ahead of people. There is a "sweet spot" where health care companies make profits AND people are able to get basic treatment and care instead of going to the ER for anything and everything. The United States refuses to find that "sweet spot" like many other countries have.


See my above point. And to be honest both parties are putting profits ahead of people. That's why I continue to say that both parties are run by corporatists and neoliberals in a time when we need populists. One thing I find interesting is one of the criticisms I hear of single payer, and its not an unreasonable criticism, is that older folks are often sacrificed to help the younger. This appears to be happening in a couple of other countries. However, the Lt. Governor of Texas has publicly said that we should sacrifice the health of these people for the sake of the economy. Dan Patrick is literally advocating the same exact policy that is at the root of criticism of Single Payer.

I am personally pro-life at all stages. That means we need to protect the unborn. We need to support the women after they give birth and give them the resources they need. We need to care for the elderly, And we need to make sure that no American will lose health care due to circumstances beyond their control.

And lastly, I hate the term affordable being used in this debate. Affordable is a relative term, and what might be affordable to some is not to others. We should not be advocating for affordable health care. We should be advocating for health care that all Americans are guaranteed from Birth until Death.
 
hashtagconfused
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:35 pm

Re: Biden's follies

Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:53 am

seb146 wrote:
hashtagconfused wrote:
seb146 wrote:
If your numbers were actually correct, that would be great. Your numbers are not correct. People are paying much, much, much more than that and not receiving much in return. I would like to see where you get your numbers. In the links I provided, it shows that union workers pay less than non union workers for health care.

It also occurs to me that you are splitting hairs until you can declare victory. I don't understand why we need to defend the for-profit health care system. Please explain. Why is for-profit so much better than affordable health care for all?


https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics ... Historical

https://www.statista.com/statistics/238 ... -medicine/

what are the correct numbers?

employee contributions is not the same as cost of health care or insurance. if a cheeseburger costs $5 and you pay for it yourself, it costs $5. if i buy it and hand it to you, it still costs $5.

something can be for profit and still be affordable. again, what amount would be considered affordable?


IF health care spending were $11,700 per person last year, that could be reasonable for an individual. For many of us who are only making $25,000 or less per year, that is almost half our income.

See the problem?

It is not about cheeseburgers. This is about people's lives. The party of "every life is sacred" is putting profits ahead of people. There is a "sweet spot" where health care companies make profits AND people are able to get basic treatment and care instead of going to the ER for anything and everything. The United States refuses to find that "sweet spot" like many other countries have.


what are the correct numbers?

i never said that it wasnt a problem. it is not reasonable for half of someone's income to have to go to health care or to any one cost in reality.

the reference to cheeseburgers was an analogy since you had provided links about employee contributions and not the actual cost of the care or insurance. the discussion should be about how to lower costs not shift who is paying for it.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22328
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden's follies

Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:39 am

apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:

IF health care spending were $11,700 per person last year, that could be reasonable for an individual. For many of us who are only making $25,000 or less per year, that is almost half our income.

See the problem?

It is not about cheeseburgers. This is about people's lives. The party of "every life is sacred" is putting profits ahead of people. There is a "sweet spot" where health care companies make profits AND people are able to get basic treatment and care instead of going to the ER for anything and everything. The United States refuses to find that "sweet spot" like many other countries have.


See my above point. And to be honest both parties are putting profits ahead of people. That's why I continue to say that both parties are run by corporatists and neoliberals in a time when we need populists. One thing I find interesting is one of the criticisms I hear of single payer, and its not an unreasonable criticism, is that older folks are often sacrificed to help the younger. This appears to be happening in a couple of other countries. However, the Lt. Governor of Texas has publicly said that we should sacrifice the health of these people for the sake of the economy. Dan Patrick is literally advocating the same exact policy that is at the root of criticism of Single Payer.

I am personally pro-life at all stages. That means we need to protect the unborn. We need to support the women after they give birth and give them the resources they need. We need to care for the elderly, And we need to make sure that no American will lose health care due to circumstances beyond their control.

And lastly, I hate the term affordable being used in this debate. Affordable is a relative term, and what might be affordable to some is not to others. We should not be advocating for affordable health care. We should be advocating for health care that all Americans are guaranteed from Birth until Death.


I hate when people substitute "free" for "affordable". Everyone EVERYONE knows affordable health care will not be free. EVERYONE knows that. EVERYONE accepts that.

Honestly, our for-profit health care is affordable. For those at the top. So, you are right. We need a different term.

People develop health issues at different ages. My cousin's daughter was born with a brain tumor that could not be removed or she would die. She has been on this earth about 17 years but has the mental capacity of a 6 year old. She has been on government health care and crowd funding health care her whole life. My aunt, on the other hand, is 90 and has elevated cholesterol but no other health issues. She has Medicare.

We need health care we all can afford. Not just a select few. I think, come October, Biden will change his tune on health care. I think he will see how we need something that covers everyone period.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
winginit
Posts: 2849
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Biden's follies

Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:54 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
There is no way we will have that many deaths. 4400 dead now leads me to believe we will have at worst 10 to 20 thousand as worst case and I feel it will be less.


22,000 deaths in the United States as of this morning...
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10417
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Biden's follies

Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:07 pm

winginit wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
There is no way we will have that many deaths. 4400 dead now leads me to believe we will have at worst 10 to 20 thousand as worst case and I feel it will be less.


22,000 deaths in the United States as of this morning...

"It's those damn evil Democrats in those liberal states! They are doing this on purpose to hurt Trump in a desperate attempt to win in November!"
/s :spin:
Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 8363
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Biden's follies

Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:45 pm

BN747 wrote:
That ad will be impactful, but if had a number counting the rising cases below the 'speakers' as it increases would be devastating.

The ad would be more impacting if the speakers didn't sound so scripted. If they truly are Republicans fed up with Trump, they wouldn't have to read prepared remarks or sound like they are.

As soon as I saw the ad the first time around I dismissed it as fake...and I'm not even a Republican.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
NIKV69
Topic Author
Posts: 13422
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Biden's follies

Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:46 pm

winginit wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
There is no way we will have that many deaths. 4400 dead now leads me to believe we will have at worst 10 to 20 thousand as worst case and I feel it will be less.


22,000 deaths in the United States as of this morning...


So when can we expect the 200 thousand?
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 11295
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Biden's follies

Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:48 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
winginit wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
There is no way we will have that many deaths. 4400 dead now leads me to believe we will have at worst 10 to 20 thousand as worst case and I feel it will be less.


22,000 deaths in the United States as of this morning...


So when can we expect the 200 thousand?



Are you now a member of the chain gang?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10417
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Biden's follies

Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:36 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
winginit wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
There is no way we will have that many deaths. 4400 dead now leads me to believe we will have at worst 10 to 20 thousand as worst case and I feel it will be less.


22,000 deaths in the United States as of this morning...


So when can we expect the 200 thousand?

And this validates your original comment how?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
apodino
Posts: 3877
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: Biden's follies

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:06 am

Why is the mainstream media continuing to try to bury the sexual assault charge being brought by Tara Reade? Just this weekend, the NY Times was caught covering up the allegation and then editing the article and a tweet afterwards after the Biden camp called and complained? Krystal Ball (Who is no Trump fan and a real progressive) called them out this morning on this issue. This makes me sick, and it sets the metoo movement back 10 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTyYrJl5IiU
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10417
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Biden's follies

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:09 am

[list=]is a [/list]
apodino wrote:
Why is the mainstream media continuing to try to bury the sexual assault charge being brought by Tara Reade? Just this weekend, the NY Times was caught covering up the allegation and then editing the article and a tweet afterwards after the Biden camp called and complained? Krystal Ball (Who is no Trump fan and a real progressive) called them out this morning on this issue. This makes me sick, and it sets the metoo movement back 10 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTyYrJl5IiU

Are they substantiated?

I believe you also agreed that was the worst thing about the metoo movement.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22328
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden's follies

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:19 am

apodino wrote:
Why is the mainstream media continuing to try to bury the sexual assault charge being brought by Tara Reade? Just this weekend, the NY Times was caught covering up the allegation and then editing the article and a tweet afterwards after the Biden camp called and complained? Krystal Ball (Who is no Trump fan and a real progressive) called them out this morning on this issue. This makes me sick, and it sets the metoo movement back 10 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTyYrJl5IiU


So, NYT actually published the report of the allegation. But you are upset because they published it? Or are you upset because they didn't make as big of a deal as they did with the TWENTY FIVE PLUS allegations against the emperor in chief?

https://www.businessinsider.com/women-a ... st-2017-12
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/a-runnin ... 2c043a7212
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
apodino
Posts: 3877
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: Biden's follies

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:23 am

seb146 wrote:
apodino wrote:
Why is the mainstream media continuing to try to bury the sexual assault charge being brought by Tara Reade? Just this weekend, the NY Times was caught covering up the allegation and then editing the article and a tweet afterwards after the Biden camp called and complained? Krystal Ball (Who is no Trump fan and a real progressive) called them out this morning on this issue. This makes me sick, and it sets the metoo movement back 10 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTyYrJl5IiU


So, NYT actually published the report of the allegation. But you are upset because they published it? Or are you upset because they didn't make as big of a deal as they did with the TWENTY FIVE PLUS allegations against the emperor in chief?

https://www.businessinsider.com/women-a ... st-2017-12
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/a-runnin ... 2c043a7212


Seb did you even watch the video I posted? Krystal Ball is no conservative, and no fan of Trump. Yes the times did report the story, but watch the video please. You are using Trump in those links which have absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. The example you need to look at is Brett Kavanaugh. If you look at the circumstances surrounding Kavanaugh and Biden, you will find that they are very similar in almost every respect. Both happened years ago, both stories were broken by Ryan Grimm (an outstanding journalist btw), and both surrounded men being considered for high office. The difference is in the Kavanaugh case, the Media jumped all over it, and Ms. Ford did actually give a chance to present her case. Ms. Reade can't even get a me too lawyer to represent her, let alone media coverage. It's disgusting the way Ms. Reade is being treated here. Again, please watch the video, and also look at the Hill for the past couple of weeks, particularly with Krystal Ball who has been all over this story.

And Seb I am not justifying any bad behavior on Trump's part. But it seems like every time a Democrat is accused of something, your reaction is always to post something about a republican doing the same thing. Listen, its wrong when republicans do it to. But to constantly take that road is a classic case of justifying bad behavior with bad behavior.

Tugger wrote:
Are they substantiated?

I believe you also agreed that was the worst thing about the metoo movement.

Tugg


It's hard to substantiate claims, but based on what this woman has said, and everything that is out there, this woman is very credible and needs to be listened too. If you only believe allegations are true when its someone you don't like...you are a hypocrite in my book. That's why I feel if you believe Christine Blasey Ford, or Anita Hill, you need to listen to Tara Reade. That is all I am saying. But when the Biden campaign can literally tell the New York Times to edit an article to not make their candidate look as bad, that reeks of corruption, and its why outlets like the NY Times, CNN, MSNBC, and the Washington Post are as credible as outlets like Fox News and Breitbart (In other words, not very)

My last thought on this, and people who want to bring Trump into this. Trump has absolutely nothing to do with this, and Reade has made it quite clear she is not a Trump supporter, and was a Hillary Supporter in 2016. She is not doing this to help Trump at all, and honestly this issue has nothing to do with Trump. I will remind everyone that Biden is not yet the nominee officially (That happens at the convention). If these claims can be substantiated and Biden does go down, the Democrats can still get a replacement at the convention.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22328
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden's follies

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:34 am

apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:
apodino wrote:
Why is the mainstream media continuing to try to bury the sexual assault charge being brought by Tara Reade? Just this weekend, the NY Times was caught covering up the allegation and then editing the article and a tweet afterwards after the Biden camp called and complained? Krystal Ball (Who is no Trump fan and a real progressive) called them out this morning on this issue. This makes me sick, and it sets the metoo movement back 10 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTyYrJl5IiU


So, NYT actually published the report of the allegation. But you are upset because they published it? Or are you upset because they didn't make as big of a deal as they did with the TWENTY FIVE PLUS allegations against the emperor in chief?

https://www.businessinsider.com/women-a ... st-2017-12
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/a-runnin ... 2c043a7212


Seb did you even watch the video I posted? Krystal Ball is no conservative, and no fan of Trump. Yes the times did report the story, but watch the video please. You are using Trump in those links which have absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. The example you need to look at is Brett Kavanaugh. If you look at the circumstances surrounding Kavanaugh and Biden, you will find that they are very similar in almost every respect. Both happened years ago, both stories were broken by Ryan Grimm (an outstanding journalist btw), and both surrounded men being considered for high office. The difference is in the Kavanaugh case, the Media jumped all over it, and Ms. Ford did actually give a chance to present her case. Ms. Reade can't even get a me too lawyer to represent her, let alone media coverage. It's disgusting the way Ms. Reade is being treated here. Again, please watch the video, and also look at the Hill for the past couple of weeks, particularly with Krystal Ball who has been all over this story.

And Seb I am not justifying any bad behavior on Trump's part. But it seems like every time a Democrat is accused of something, your reaction is always to post something about a republican doing the same thing. Listen, its wrong when republicans do it to. But to constantly take that road is a classic case of justifying bad behavior with bad behavior.


It is wrong when a Republican does it. That we agree on. However, the consequences are completely different. When a Republican does it, we MUST fall in line behind them and stop attacking them and they are just boys being boys and it is a private matter and who cares. When a Democrat does it, they must be charged with crimes and stripped of all power and thrown in the stockades in the public square to be shamed for years and years and years.

When Republicans treat your bad behavior leaders the same as you treat Democrats, we can talk. Until then, nope.

We also don't need a lecture on "a commentator who I say hates Republicans said something about some article at some point". YOU said NYT buried the story and, in the same breath, said NYT covered it up. If they published it, they did not cover it up.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
NIKV69
Topic Author
Posts: 13422
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Biden's follies

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:40 pm

Tugger wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
winginit wrote:

22,000 deaths in the United States as of this morning...


So when can we expect the 200 thousand?

And this validates your original comment how?

Tugg


I don't need any validation. I made a prediction that was a heck of a lot more accurate than everyone else and the MSM who tried to scare the hell out of everyone and said we would have 250 thousand dead.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22328
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden's follies

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:07 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

So when can we expect the 200 thousand?

And this validates your original comment how?

Tugg


I don't need any validation. I made a prediction that was a heck of a lot more accurate than everyone else and the MSM who tried to scare the hell out of everyone and said we would have 250 thousand dead.


And your wanna-be king said we would have fewer than 10 cases and we could open by Easter and is now demanding we open the country now. With people still dying. If we follow the "advice" of dear leader, there WILL be 250,000+ dead. But, it will be anyone else's fault, so let's do it, I guess?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
apodino
Posts: 3877
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: Biden's follies

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:15 pm

seb146 wrote:
apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:

So, NYT actually published the report of the allegation. But you are upset because they published it? Or are you upset because they didn't make as big of a deal as they did with the TWENTY FIVE PLUS allegations against the emperor in chief?

https://www.businessinsider.com/women-a ... st-2017-12
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/a-runnin ... 2c043a7212


Seb did you even watch the video I posted? Krystal Ball is no conservative, and no fan of Trump. Yes the times did report the story, but watch the video please. You are using Trump in those links which have absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. The example you need to look at is Brett Kavanaugh. If you look at the circumstances surrounding Kavanaugh and Biden, you will find that they are very similar in almost every respect. Both happened years ago, both stories were broken by Ryan Grimm (an outstanding journalist btw), and both surrounded men being considered for high office. The difference is in the Kavanaugh case, the Media jumped all over it, and Ms. Ford did actually give a chance to present her case. Ms. Reade can't even get a me too lawyer to represent her, let alone media coverage. It's disgusting the way Ms. Reade is being treated here. Again, please watch the video, and also look at the Hill for the past couple of weeks, particularly with Krystal Ball who has been all over this story.

And Seb I am not justifying any bad behavior on Trump's part. But it seems like every time a Democrat is accused of something, your reaction is always to post something about a republican doing the same thing. Listen, its wrong when republicans do it to. But to constantly take that road is a classic case of justifying bad behavior with bad behavior.


It is wrong when a Republican does it. That we agree on. However, the consequences are completely different. When a Republican does it, we MUST fall in line behind them and stop attacking them and they are just boys being boys and it is a private matter and who cares. When a Democrat does it, they must be charged with crimes and stripped of all power and thrown in the stockades in the public square to be shamed for years and years and years.

Please Seb, if any one democrat or republican sexually assaults a Woman, they are not fit for office. What I see happening here is hypocrisy on both sides. If a Democrat does something bad, all the democrats defend them (save for Al Franken and Katie Hill, and Katie Hill should not have lost her seat over what happened, she actually did nothing wrong), and if a Republican does something bad, all the republicans will defend them. I hate this tribal mentality that permeates this country, and its been happening for Decades.

seb146 wrote:
When Republicans treat your bad behavior leaders the same as you treat Democrats, we can talk. Until then, nope.

Whether you realize it or not, by making this statement, you are basically saying its ok for any Male Democratic politician to sexual assault a woman because you will not hold them accountable at all. What kind of message does this send to Women?

seb146 wrote:
We also don't need a lecture on "a commentator who I say hates Republicans said something about some article at some point". YOU said NYT buried the story and, in the same breath, said NYT covered it up. If they published it, they did not cover it up.

Krystal Ball is an excellent journalist and while she is a Democrat and Saagar Enjeti is a Republican neither one toes the party line. (Krystal Ball actually ran for Congress a number of years ago and a tape of her with a Sex Toy at a Halloween party that depicted something consensual came out and wrongly caused her to lose the election) Its one reason I trust them more than the NY Times, CNN, MSNBC, FOX News, and the Washington Post. And I still say the NY Times tried to bury this story. This story has been going around for weeks now, and the NY Times waited until EASTER SUNDAY and also conveniently after Bernie Sanders got out of the race to run an Opinion piece on the case. In fact their editor in chief actually went on the record as to the way they have covered this story. Here is a link to the full article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/13/business/media/joe-biden-tara-reade-new-york-times.html?searchResultPosition=1

There were a couple of eye opening quotes in the article.
Q. Why was Kavanaugh Treated Differently.
A. Kavanaugh was already in a public forum in a very large way.

So let me get this straight, being the nominee of a major political party for President and a former VP is not in the public forum in a very large way? The answer goes on to say that the Ford allegations against Kavanaugh were way better known than the Tara Reade accusations against Biden, and that the average person does not know about the accusations against Biden from Ms. Reade. Of course they don't, because the media has not covered this story.

Another one

Q. I want to ask about some edits that were made after publication, the deletion of the second half of the sentence: "The times found no pattern of Sexual Misconduct by Mr. Biden, beyond the hugs, kisses and touching that women previously said made them uncomfortable." Why did you do that?
A. Even though a lot of us, including me had looked at it before the story went into the paper, I think the campaign thought that the phrasing was awkward and it made it look like there were other instances in which he had been accused of sexual misconduct

He admitted right in this interview that the Biden campaign directed the Times on how to report and edit this story. I couldn't believe what I read here. And there were in fact other instances last year in which he was accused. But the fact that a major political campaign has influence with the media on how they are covered reeks of corruption. Again Krystal and Saager covered this brilliantly this morning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63yeQ1GCzIY

And though the NY Times did run this piece, MSNBC and CNN have had zero coverage of this case. The Washington Post has had little coverage of this outside of a hit piece on Tara Reade. Fox News did not cover this either interestingly enough, but this morning a headline article on their website is actually calling out CNN for not covering this story.

Let me be clear, I don't know if Tara Reade's accusations are true or not, but she deserves to be heard, and from what I can see she is very credible. She is not doing this to help Trump or the republicans at all. She is doing this because she feels like she was a victim. Let her tell her story and give the people a chance to decide for themselves.
 
winginit
Posts: 2849
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Biden's follies

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:07 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

So when can we expect the 200 thousand?

And this validates your original comment how?

Tugg


I don't need any validation. I made a prediction that was a heck of a lot more accurate than everyone else and the MSM who tried to scare the hell out of everyone and said we would have 250 thousand dead.


Oh people have stopped dying from coronavirus? I was unaware! Great news!

Also, cute how you're trying to revise history. First and foremost, it was the administration who put out the 100K to 240K prediction, not the MSM. In other news, interesting that you're now claiming it was 250K. You're not great at this I'll be honest.
Last edited by winginit on Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
NIKV69
Topic Author
Posts: 13422
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Biden's follies

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:21 pm

winginit wrote:
Oh people have stopped dying from coronavirus? I was unaware! Great news!

Also, cute that you're now moving the goal posts. First and foremost, it was the administration who put out the 100K to 240K prediction, not the MSM. In other news, interesting that you're now claiming it was 250K. You're not great at this I'll be honest.


Here is the MSM (Gupta) CNN's favorite doctor inferring the death toll would be much higher than 240k saying that the 240k Fauci prediction was optimistic.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2020/ ... ay-vpx.cnn

It's apparent the MSM is upset the death count will be much lower and the market is at 23,800 which they can't believe. It's pretty disgusting how ghoulish they have been in all this.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22328
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden's follies

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:37 pm

apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:
apodino wrote:

Seb did you even watch the video I posted? Krystal Ball is no conservative, and no fan of Trump. Yes the times did report the story, but watch the video please. You are using Trump in those links which have absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. The example you need to look at is Brett Kavanaugh. If you look at the circumstances surrounding Kavanaugh and Biden, you will find that they are very similar in almost every respect. Both happened years ago, both stories were broken by Ryan Grimm (an outstanding journalist btw), and both surrounded men being considered for high office. The difference is in the Kavanaugh case, the Media jumped all over it, and Ms. Ford did actually give a chance to present her case. Ms. Reade can't even get a me too lawyer to represent her, let alone media coverage. It's disgusting the way Ms. Reade is being treated here. Again, please watch the video, and also look at the Hill for the past couple of weeks, particularly with Krystal Ball who has been all over this story.

And Seb I am not justifying any bad behavior on Trump's part. But it seems like every time a Democrat is accused of something, your reaction is always to post something about a republican doing the same thing. Listen, its wrong when republicans do it to. But to constantly take that road is a classic case of justifying bad behavior with bad behavior.


It is wrong when a Republican does it. That we agree on. However, the consequences are completely different. When a Republican does it, we MUST fall in line behind them and stop attacking them and they are just boys being boys and it is a private matter and who cares. When a Democrat does it, they must be charged with crimes and stripped of all power and thrown in the stockades in the public square to be shamed for years and years and years.

Please Seb, if any one democrat or republican sexually assaults a Woman, they are not fit for office. What I see happening here is hypocrisy on both sides. If a Democrat does something bad, all the democrats defend them (save for Al Franken and Katie Hill, and Katie Hill should not have lost her seat over what happened, she actually did nothing wrong), and if a Republican does something bad, all the republicans will defend them. I hate this tribal mentality that permeates this country, and its been happening for Decades.


More desperation from the MAGA crew. Kavanaugh was accused by multiple women. Some of those women received (Ford is still receiving) death threats from MAGA fans. But, those allegations were BS and he is a stand up guy because state media said so and MAGA has to believe it.

Tribal mentality defending the accused and permeating the country.

Dear leader is still being accused by multiple women of sexual assault. But those allegations are BS and he is a stand up guy because state media said so and MAGA has to believe it.

If you really believe what you are saying, you would DEMAND both resign. But, because of tribal mentality permeating the country, you don't. Both sides do it, so it gives MAGA fans cover to defend their own leaders bad behavior. Instead of doing the right thing, MAGA fans take the easy way out and blame everyone else. Both sides do it because it is easier for MAGA fans to say that than "let's clean our own house of rats."
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
apodino
Posts: 3877
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: Biden's follies

Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:13 pm

seb146 wrote:
apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:

It is wrong when a Republican does it. That we agree on. However, the consequences are completely different. When a Republican does it, we MUST fall in line behind them and stop attacking them and they are just boys being boys and it is a private matter and who cares. When a Democrat does it, they must be charged with crimes and stripped of all power and thrown in the stockades in the public square to be shamed for years and years and years.

Please Seb, if any one democrat or republican sexually assaults a Woman, they are not fit for office. What I see happening here is hypocrisy on both sides. If a Democrat does something bad, all the democrats defend them (save for Al Franken and Katie Hill, and Katie Hill should not have lost her seat over what happened, she actually did nothing wrong), and if a Republican does something bad, all the republicans will defend them. I hate this tribal mentality that permeates this country, and its been happening for Decades.


More desperation from the MAGA crew. Kavanaugh was accused by multiple women. Some of those women received (Ford is still receiving) death threats from MAGA fans. But, those allegations were BS and he is a stand up guy because state media said so and MAGA has to believe it.

Tribal mentality defending the accused and permeating the country.

Dear leader is still being accused by multiple women of sexual assault. But those allegations are BS and he is a stand up guy because state media said so and MAGA has to believe it.

If you really believe what you are saying, you would DEMAND both resign. But, because of tribal mentality permeating the country, you don't. Both sides do it, so it gives MAGA fans cover to defend their own leaders bad behavior. Instead of doing the right thing, MAGA fans take the easy way out and blame everyone else. Both sides do it because it is easier for MAGA fans to say that than "let's clean our own house of rats."


What the heck does the MAGA crew and Trump supporters have to do with this? Seb, for nine millionth time let me spell it out to you so that you can understand it. I am not a MAGA crew member, I do not support Trump, I did not vote for Trump in 2016, and I do not intend to vote for Trump in 2020. All I am trying to do is ensure that Tara Reade has a chance to be heard. For whatever reason, you do not want to give her that chance, and you keep pivoting to Orange Man every time it is brought up. This has NOTHING, Zero, Zilch, Nada to do with Trump. This has everything to do with a woman who is bringing credible allegations against a man who is running for office, and even filed a police report on the incident, who wants to tell her story. Am I saying Biden is guilty? No. All I am saying is let the woman tell her story and let the voters decide for themselves.

As for Kavanaugh, Christine Blasey Ford did have the opportunity to tell her story. She did it under oath before the Senate Judiciary Committee. She told her story, and the Senators and the General Public had the chance to decide for themselves. Ultimately, what happened is Kavanaugh was believed and he was confirmed to the Supreme Court. I think a lot of people believe that Ford was assaulted, but it was not Kavanaugh who assaulted her. That being said, if Kavanaugh was guilty, he is not qualified for the Supreme Court and should resign. I have been consistent in that. And yes multiple women did press allegations. They had a chance to tell their story as well. As far as the death threats go, that is unacceptable and people who do that should be thrown in jail.

Ditto with Trump. Everyone knew what kind of a man he was and people voted him into office anyways. That says more about the electorate than it does about Trump. Stormy Daniels told her story. The people did decide. But I do agree, if Trump actually did assault women he should resign. I don't really think he treats women that well to be honest, and its one reason I don't support him and didn't vote for him. But his accusers got to tell their story.
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1779
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

Re: Biden's follies

Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:55 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
winginit wrote:
Oh people have stopped dying from coronavirus? I was unaware! Great news!

Also, cute that you're now moving the goal posts. First and foremost, it was the administration who put out the 100K to 240K prediction, not the MSM. In other news, interesting that you're now claiming it was 250K. You're not great at this I'll be honest.


Here is the MSM (Gupta) CNN's favorite doctor inferring the death toll would be much higher than 240k saying that the 240k Fauci prediction was optimistic.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2020/ ... ay-vpx.cnn

It's apparent the MSM is upset the death count will be much lower and the market is at 23,800 which they can't believe. It's pretty disgusting how ghoulish they have been in all this.


I also find it ironic that two of CNN prime time anchors Chris Fredo Cuomo and Brooke Baldwin both survived the worst of Coronavirus yet neither one was hospitalized or can show proof of testing positive for it., I smell fake news on this one...But then again it is CNN. Every network is gonna spin this CNN and MSNBC are going to play up the worst in this and FOX will play it up the best I figure the truth is somewhere in the middle.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3514
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Biden's follies

Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:55 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
I don't need any validation. I made a prediction that was a heck of a lot more accurate than everyone else and the MSM who tried to scare the hell out of everyone and said we would have 250 thousand dead.


"The main stream media! The main stream media! Oh - the dreaded main stream media!"


But the "main stream media" is main stream because the do what the media is supposed to do - report the facts. And, despite your claim that "the MSM tried to scare the hell out of everyone", they didn't create those numbers out of thin air; they were quoting Trump's own Coronavirus Response Coordinator, Dr. Deborah Birx:

"The White House coronavirus response coordinator said Monday that she is "very worried about every city in the United States" and projects 100,000 to 200,000 American deaths as a best case scenario."


"Deborah Birx, the coronavirus coordinator, told NBC News that the United States could record 200,000 deaths even “if we do things together well, almost perfectly.”


So the "main stream" media accurately reported what the White House said... and you have a problem with that. A problem with facts. Because facts scare people.... especially Trump-puppets.

Figures...


:roll:


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/dr-deborah-birx-predicts-200-000-deaths-if-we-do-n1171876
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/coronavirus-deaths-warning-america/2020/03/30/522221ce-72a6-11ea-87da-77a8136c1a6d_story.html
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22328
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden's follies

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:28 pm

apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:
apodino wrote:
Please Seb, if any one democrat or republican sexually assaults a Woman, they are not fit for office. What I see happening here is hypocrisy on both sides. If a Democrat does something bad, all the democrats defend them (save for Al Franken and Katie Hill, and Katie Hill should not have lost her seat over what happened, she actually did nothing wrong), and if a Republican does something bad, all the republicans will defend them. I hate this tribal mentality that permeates this country, and its been happening for Decades.


More desperation from the MAGA crew. Kavanaugh was accused by multiple women. Some of those women received (Ford is still receiving) death threats from MAGA fans. But, those allegations were BS and he is a stand up guy because state media said so and MAGA has to believe it.

Tribal mentality defending the accused and permeating the country.

Dear leader is still being accused by multiple women of sexual assault. But those allegations are BS and he is a stand up guy because state media said so and MAGA has to believe it.

If you really believe what you are saying, you would DEMAND both resign. But, because of tribal mentality permeating the country, you don't. Both sides do it, so it gives MAGA fans cover to defend their own leaders bad behavior. Instead of doing the right thing, MAGA fans take the easy way out and blame everyone else. Both sides do it because it is easier for MAGA fans to say that than "let's clean our own house of rats."


What the heck does the MAGA crew and Trump supporters have to do with this?


All this noise from the MAGA base because Biden may have done something their dear leader has done at least 25 times. But, we can not have Biden as president because of this one thing that may or may not have happened.

This is such a huge double standard. The Republican party has been guilty of it for years and years. It is time to put up or shut up. Just because you and a few other on the right will not vote for him in November is meaningless. Republicans have yet to hold him accountable but still demand accountability from literally everyone else outside the MAGA bubble.

Maybe instead of making demands of everyone else, Republicans should clean up their own messes first. Maybe if they want some hint of credibility, Republicans should police their own instead of demanding everyone else live up to Republican standards.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
apodino
Posts: 3877
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: Biden's follies

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:09 pm

seb146 wrote:
apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:

More desperation from the MAGA crew. Kavanaugh was accused by multiple women. Some of those women received (Ford is still receiving) death threats from MAGA fans. But, those allegations were BS and he is a stand up guy because state media said so and MAGA has to believe it.

Tribal mentality defending the accused and permeating the country.

Dear leader is still being accused by multiple women of sexual assault. But those allegations are BS and he is a stand up guy because state media said so and MAGA has to believe it.

If you really believe what you are saying, you would DEMAND both resign. But, because of tribal mentality permeating the country, you don't. Both sides do it, so it gives MAGA fans cover to defend their own leaders bad behavior. Instead of doing the right thing, MAGA fans take the easy way out and blame everyone else. Both sides do it because it is easier for MAGA fans to say that than "let's clean our own house of rats."


What the heck does the MAGA crew and Trump supporters have to do with this?


All this noise from the MAGA base because Biden may have done something their dear leader has done at least 25 times. But, we can not have Biden as president because of this one thing that may or may not have happened.

This is such a huge double standard. The Republican party has been guilty of it for years and years. It is time to put up or shut up. Just because you and a few other on the right will not vote for him in November is meaningless. Republicans have yet to hold him accountable but still demand accountability from literally everyone else outside the MAGA bubble.

Maybe instead of making demands of everyone else, Republicans should clean up their own messes first. Maybe if they want some hint of credibility, Republicans should police their own instead of demanding everyone else live up to Republican standards.

Please Seb...again this is not coming from MAGA people, this is coming from a life long democrat who was a Hillary supporter. You keep accusing republicans and MAGA of pushing this when its not them.

In fact, I don't even think this is being talked about by Rush Limabaugh and Sean Hannity types either. The people who are talking about this are DEMOCRATS.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Biden's follies

Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:42 am

seb146 wrote:

All this noise from the MAGA base because Biden may have done something their dear leader has done at least 25 times. But, we can not have Biden as president because of this one thing that may or may not have happened.

Honestly Seb, I've ONLY heard this brought up from liberals, pretty leftist liberals, more left than me.

I also don't see what Trump has to do with this. I'm unhappy with him and wish he'd resign / be removed for a plethora of reasons............

But if Biden is guilty, do you support him? Do you?

For me, I'm not sure where I stand on the issue. From what I've seen, it looks like he said she said. I'd hate to throw out or nominee based on a false accusation, but it also sucks to default to believing him when we have no proof.

But if Biden is guilty, he must NOT be our nominee. I don't care how bad politically it is, I don't care that the other side has a guy that is much worse. I'm not voting for Trump! And if this allegation pans out as credible, I'm 99.9% not voting for Biden neither

I know this comes as suspicious timing, but I've known women that have gone through sexual assault. It's very easy to second guess why they stay quiet for so long and very easy to doubt them. Almost 100% of the time, there is no upside to sharing their story, but an extreme amount of bullshit and hate. It needs to be addressed, IMO. I definitely wouldn't put it past politicians to craft up a story against Biden either
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18071
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Biden's follies

Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:27 am

We still doing this thread after Trump's nightly White House illiterate dementia meltdown? Ooooook!
I don't take responsibility at all
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22328
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Biden's follies

Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:28 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

All this noise from the MAGA base because Biden may have done something their dear leader has done at least 25 times. But, we can not have Biden as president because of this one thing that may or may not have happened.

Honestly Seb, I've ONLY heard this brought up from liberals, pretty leftist liberals, more left than me.

I also don't see what Trump has to do with this. I'm unhappy with him and wish he'd resign / be removed for a plethora of reasons............

But if Biden is guilty, do you support him? Do you?

For me, I'm not sure where I stand on the issue. From what I've seen, it looks like he said she said. I'd hate to throw out or nominee based on a false accusation, but it also sucks to default to believing him when we have no proof.

But if Biden is guilty, he must NOT be our nominee. I don't care how bad politically it is, I don't care that the other side has a guy that is much worse. I'm not voting for Trump! And if this allegation pans out as credible, I'm 99.9% not voting for Biden neither

I know this comes as suspicious timing, but I've known women that have gone through sexual assault. It's very easy to second guess why they stay quiet for so long and very easy to doubt them. Almost 100% of the time, there is no upside to sharing their story, but an extreme amount of bullshit and hate. It needs to be addressed, IMO. I definitely wouldn't put it past politicians to craft up a story against Biden either


It does matter. Pointing out the double standard matters. Republicans DEMAND that all Democrats play by a certain set of rules. Not everyone, just Democrats. Bill Clinton was impeached for a consensual affair. When it is pointed out their current leader has had many, many, many consensual affairs and, by their standards, should be impeached and put on trial, the response is "but they are adults so leave them alone". When Biden is shown putting his hands on a woman's shoulders, Republicans freak out and scream how unfit he is because he is violating her. But, when it is pointed out their leader has done worse, they say "well, they are adults and who cares". Republicans either need to hold their own to the impossibly high standard they hold Democrats to or hold Democrats to the very, very, very low standard Republicans hold themselves to. The hypocrisy needs to be pointed out until they get it.

Unfortunately, they never will.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
NIKV69
Topic Author
Posts: 13422
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Biden's follies

Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:58 pm

seb146 wrote:

Bill Clinton was impeached for a consensual affair. When it is pointed out their current leader has had many, many, many consensual affairs and, by their standards, should be impeached and put on trial, the response is "but they are adults so leave them alone". When Biden is shown putting his hands on a woman's shoulders, Republicans freak out and scream how unfit he is because he is violating her. But, when it is pointed out their leader has done worse, they say "well, they are adults and who cares". Republicans either need to hold their own to the impossibly high standard they hold Democrats to or hold Democrats to the very, very, very low standard Republicans hold themselves to. The hypocrisy needs to be pointed out until they get it.

Unfortunately, they never will.


Clinton did not get impeached because of what he did with a white house intern. (which in itself is so creepy) he got impeached for Perjury, obstruction of justice and abuse of power. You don't get impeached for having a consentual extra marital affair you get impeached for breaking a law. Can you ever know something of what you are talking about before you post?

PS Biden touching kids is downright creepy dude. Also we have video of Biden doing that creepy touching not sure what you mean by saying Trump has done worse unless of course you have video nobody knows about?
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Biden's follies

Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:33 pm

seb146 wrote:
Republicans either need to hold their own to the impossibly high standard they hold Democrats to or hold Democrats to the very, very, very low standard Republicans hold themselves to. The hypocrisy needs to be pointed out until they get it.

I agree with all of this.

Break break

If Biden is found to have done this, would you still support him?

We as libs need to hold our own to a high standard. We can point out if the Republicans don't, and we should. But I'm not gonna support someone if I find out they did something just because "the other side does it."

That's the point being made... We should look into this and hold him accountable if he is in the wrong. That has 0 to do with how bad the right is or isn't (but as you said, doesn't preclude us in ALSO pointing out their flaws)
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 8

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], johnboy, skyservice_330 and 67 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos