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889091
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Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:08 pm

Just throwing it out there.

Global economy crippled. People dying in the thousands. Governments across the globe scrambling to control the spread of Covid19...
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:26 pm

If you mean biological war, then yes.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style
 
anrec80
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:32 pm

War, first and foremost, is a costly thing and requires mobilization of the whole nation. And pretty much any nation now is weakened, more or less. So I don’t think the war over it has a chance.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:41 pm

Why would there be war? You just listed a bunch of random bad things happening.

What would the war be about? Why?

sonicruiser wrote:
If you mean biological war, then yes.

I usually don't debate conspiracy theories. I usually get vague answers or very circumstantial evidence. Or I'll get a reason that may be possible but has little to no proof to back it up. But I'll ask...

Who do you think is benefiting from all this? Certainly not the US. Certainly not China. I don't think any country is doing better during all this. Everyone is suffering

Even better, do we have any actual evidence?
 
rfields5421
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:43 pm

anrec80 wrote:
War, first and foremost, is a costly thing and requires mobilization of the whole nation. And pretty much any nation now is weakened, more or less. So I don’t think the war over it has a chance.


Two places that nations have traditionally had trouble controlling the spread of infectious diseases are prisons and military.

Both crowd hundreds, if not thousands, of people into small areas, group sleeping and housing areas. Limit the ability of those people to get outside the gates of the area, etc.

Right now the US has an issue with at least on aircraft carrier combat non-effective. Nuclear submarines that have been at sea for over 45 days are virus free, but many need resupply of food and basic living needs (dare I say toilet paper), within the next 30-45 days.

That has been in the US news media lately.

We know the military forces of China where involved in trying to contain the disease and infections have occurred and spread.

I find it impossible to believe that the military forces of any nation where the virus has been found do not have some infection within the ranks.

War on a nation by nation basis - No

Armed insurrection - Yes

We've already seen some instances in the US of people trying to force quarantine of neighbors. Others of small communities trying to block access from outsiders. Some people trying to stop federal government assistance which they believe is an attempt to replace local government with federal control, etc...
Not all who wander are lost.
 
dobilan
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:54 pm

Also some states (the more authoritarian the riskier) will soon feel internal pressure over the entire Covid situation (economic hardships, lack of food, quarantine) and will try to vent it by finding external scapegoats/ennemies or conflicts. Also the more economical imbalance will have, the more geopolitical imbalance too. The situation is getting volatile. Let's hope for the best!
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:03 pm

Its a bit naive not to believe that China, Russia, Iran and others have absolutely nothing to lose from this. These nations thrive when the western world suffers. We haven't seen any evidence that this was planned but if it is found out that they did later on, I wouldn't discard some serious confrontation down the road, unfortunately.

What the western world is living today is nothing short of modern day authoritarianism. Governments elected by the people telling the people to not leave their homes and stop working. Suddenly we the people are to stupid to actually know better, than washing our hands and exercising common sense, but no, those with the power are telling us to do what they say, based on fear. Many on the left like this and some in the right, and if anyone questions this, all of the sudden is to be vanished and labeled some fancy derogatory term.

In any case, we have been told this is temporary, when clearly it won't be, a vaccine will take more than a year, and when it does, what economy would be in the other end? That is of course if billions of people will not rebel against 'democratic' governments that have all of the sudden become dictatorial. We are headed to very turbulent times, and war has shown to be the culmination of difficult times.

History has the unfortunate inclination of repeating itself.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:19 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Its a bit naive not to believe that China, Russia, Iran and others have absolutely nothing to lose from this. These nations thrive when the western world suffers. We haven't seen any evidence that this was planned but if it is found out that they did later on, I wouldn't discard some serious confrontation down the road, unfortunately.


This^^

China and Iran essentially lost 3000 people each in exchange for the utter destruction of the US economy. Russia lost almost nothing and had everything to gain. For them, this coronavirus is an early Christmas gift. The death toll in the US has already passed both China and Iran and is still climbing.

So now not only do China, Iran, and Russia get to see the destruction of the US economy, but also the implosion of thousands of people in America's working population as well. They couldn't have asked for much better.
Last edited by sonicruiser on Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:22 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Its a bit naive not to believe that China, Russia, Iran and others have absolutely nothing to lose from this. These nations thrive when the western world suffers.


It’s ‘a bit naive’ to claim China thrives when the west suffers - their current ‘Belt and Road Initiative’ would be a fantasy had they not enjoyed GDP growth rates between 5 and 15% on a consistent basis since 1990. Learn about the world and how the global economy functions before making silly assumptions. The CCP crony leadership wants to get rich just like everyone else.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
anshabhi
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:24 pm

China is already waging a war in South China Sea
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:33 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
It’s ‘a bit naive’ to claim China thrives when the west suffers - their current ‘Belt and Road Initiative’ would be a fantasy had they not enjoyed GDP growth rates between 5 and 15% on a consistent basis since 1990. Learn about the world and how the global economy functions before making silly assumptions. The CCP crony leadership wants to get rich just like everyone else.


That may have been true a few decades ago when China needed the west to grow but now they are at the top of the food chain.

Now, it is in China's interest to destabilize America as much as possible because there is no scenario in which the US is willing to help China grow any stronger at the risk of its own security, ie. trade war/tariffs. "If you can't join them, destroy them."

Essentially China needs to keep the US distracted on random wars and this coronavirus so they can continue building BRI without any opposition.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:38 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
It’s ‘a bit naive’ to claim China thrives when the west suffers - their current ‘Belt and Road Initiative’ would be a fantasy had they not enjoyed GDP growth rates between 5 and 15% on a consistent basis since 1990. Learn about the world and how the global economy functions before making silly assumptions. The CCP crony leadership wants to get rich just like everyone else.


That may have been true a few decades ago when China needed the west to grow but now they are at the top of the food chain.

Now, it is in China's interest to destabilize America as much as possible because there is no scenario in which the US is willing to help China grow any stronger at the risk of its own security. "If you can't join them, destroy them."

Essentially China needs to keep the US distracted on random wars and this coronavirus so they can continue building BRI without any opposition.


They are not 'top of the food chain'. They have the largest manufacturing base and population - yes, but they have a middle of the road HDI and their Gini scores (false or otherwise) are preposterous for a 'communist' state. They cannot simply turn off the spigot and simultaneously replace all of the existing global institutions en masse - the people there who have already gamed the system are not going to sit around without places to visit and no forex to trade - they are simply too greedy.

As for BRI, there has been very little opposition in the west, especially in South Asia, Latin America, and Africa.
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:01 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Its a bit naive not to believe that China, Russia, Iran and others have absolutely nothing to lose from this. These nations thrive when the western world suffers.


It’s ‘a bit naive’ to claim China thrives when the west suffers - their current ‘Belt and Road Initiative’ would be a fantasy had they not enjoyed GDP growth rates between 5 and 15% on a consistent basis since 1990. Learn about the world and how the global economy functions before making silly assumptions. The CCP crony leadership wants to get rich just like everyone else.


Right, I saw your response on the 'is China a Threat or a partner'. Your reply and this reply here shows why exactly we are at this point. The CCP leadership is rich enough already, their only primary goal is for them to hold on to power for ever. That's why Chairman Xi is leader for life. They don't give a shit about money, they own the world already if you let them. They are weak (the leadership), because authoritative and dictatorships are weak, they know that their power resides in holding on to power using what ever tool they got.

You can clearly see how has their response to COVID19 has been. Its been a game of staying in power at the expense of thousands of lives. Their genocidal inclinations to hold on to power are limitless. Because of their coverup and downplaying of this, it is why we are in the cusp of a global depression. They care nothing about anything but holding to power.

They are thriving because soon enough they will replace the US as the number one economy in the world, next step would be having the most powerful military on earth. So far they are succeeding.
Last edited by AirWorthy99 on Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:04 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Its a bit naive not to believe that China, Russia, Iran and others have absolutely nothing to lose from this. These nations thrive when the western world suffers. We haven't seen any evidence that this was planned but if it is found out that they did later on, I wouldn't discard some serious confrontation down the road, unfortunately.


This^^

China and Iran essentially lost 3000 people each in exchange for the utter destruction of the US economy. Russia lost almost nothing and had everything to gain. For them, this coronavirus is an early Christmas gift. The death toll in the US has already passed both China and Iran and is still climbing.

So now not only do China, Iran, and Russia get to see the destruction of the US economy, but also the implosion of thousands of people in America's working population as well. They couldn't have asked for much better.


Wait, you don’t actually believe the reported death tolls coming out of China, Russia, and Iran... do you? That would be textbook naivety.
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bhill
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:07 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Its a bit naive not to believe that China, Russia, Iran and others have absolutely nothing to lose from this. These nations thrive when the western world suffers. We haven't seen any evidence that this was planned but if it is found out that they did later on, I wouldn't discard some serious confrontation down the road, unfortunately.


This^^

China and Iran essentially lost 3000 people each in exchange for the utter destruction of the US economy. Russia lost almost nothing and had everything to gain. For them, this coronavirus is an early Christmas gift. The death toll in the US has already passed both China and Iran and is still climbing.

So now not only do China, Iran, and Russia get to see the destruction of the US economy, but also the implosion of thousands of people in America's working population as well. They couldn't have asked for much better.


If you think China only had 3000 deaths, you are smoking good shit....I expect neither China OR Russia to be forthcoming with how many actually perished. Both of those countries are as sensitive to numbers/perception as the Orange One.....
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scbriml
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:18 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
China and Iran essentially lost 3000 people each in exchange for the utter destruction of the US economy.


If you honestly believe China only suffered 3,300 Covid-19 deaths, then you may be interested in a nice bridge I have.
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sonicruiser
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:38 pm

Jetsgo wrote:
Wait, you don’t actually believe the reported death tolls coming out of China, Russia, and Iran... do you? That would be textbook naivety.


For all I know 10K people could have died and nothing would be different.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:44 pm

bhill wrote:
"Top of the Food Chain?" Riiiight....where the hell do you think this, and other viruses have come from? China is not far removed form a Third World Country with regards to THEIR Food Supply...First World Country citizens do not sleep with their food..


Yeah who could've imagined that a few years from now, America's GDP will be overtaken by a country whose citizens sleep with their food.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style
 
rfields5421
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:55 pm

scbriml wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
China and Iran essentially lost 3000 people each in exchange for the utter destruction of the US economy.


If you honestly believe China only suffered 3,300 Covid-19 deaths, then you may be interested in a nice bridge I have.


You sold that to me seven or eight years ago!!!!


I do agree that we have not seen true numbers from ANY country yet. When I see Dallas County Texas reporting numbers that the State of Texas says are lower, I wonder. If a doctor says a death is due to the virus, the state of Texas says "Do you have a positive test to back that up?". If the doctor or hospital says, no, the patient was in severe distress when admitted to the hospital, and we don't waste tests on people like that, the state ends up not reporting it as a COVID-19 death.

Maybe in a year, we might have good numbers.

Do I think most numbers reported in the US are close? Yes.
Do I think most nations report their best numbers? Yes.

Do I believe China, Russia, Iran, North Korea and about a couple dozen other nations purposely report very low numbers? Yes.

The WHO though does have a lot of sources within almost every nation to get closer to the real numbers.
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Aesma
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:15 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Many on the left like this and some in the right, and if anyone questions this, all of the sudden is to be vanished and labeled some fancy derogatory term.


Boris Johnson is given all powers by the UK parliament, that will now shut down, for an unlimited amount of time.

Viktor Orban, Hungary, same.

Abbott of Australia says the lockdown will last 6 months.

Dutertre of the Philippines orders the police to shoot and kill quarantine violators.

I see only right wing and far right leaders in that list...
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:31 pm

This reminds me of the Underpants Gnomes episode on South Park.

1. Develop pandemic
2. Release pandemic
3. Let the US' economy crash while yours also crashes
4. ???????
5. Profit

I'm seeing people assert steps 1-3, without any evidence besides "if it's bad for the US then it's good for Iran / China / Russia" (which is not actually evidence at all,) then ignoring step 4 and somehow getting to step 5

Just like most "out there" conspiracy theories, this level of / lack of evidence is what I expected.

And AirWorthy99, what? There has been a huge lack of the ability by Western governments to keep people indoors. Hardly authoritarian. Trump is being the authoritarian? Can't imagine how crazy it'd be if Obama was in office now (people would be losing their minds)


Soniccruiser, can you be any less vague? This is the same level of lazy thinking that made many think the Ukrainian Airlines 737 in Iran was downed by the US. "US doesn't like Iran. Something bad happened in Iran. US must have done it." Sounds like:

"This is hurting US. Iran / China / Russia no like US. Iran / China / Russia must be involved. Oh wow the virus came from China. Bioweapons!" Come on. You have to actually provide evidence, not use such basic, fallacious reasoning

I guess SARS was a failed bioweapon? Are bats and pangolins enemies of the US? China spread it all over their country instead of starting with the US? Why not use something like swine flu, didn't that start in the US? What a crappy bioweapon

Am I missing something?!
 
anrec80
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:36 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
China and Iran essentially lost 3000 people each in exchange for the utter destruction of the US economy. Russia lost almost nothing and had everything to gain. For them, this coronavirus is an early Christmas gift. The death toll in the US has already passed both China and Iran and is still climbing.

So now not only do China, Iran, and Russia get to see the destruction of the US economy, but also the implosion of thousands of people in America's working population as well. They couldn't have asked for much better.


Well, let's be honest here. While the USA were not paying attention at all, and Europeans were all enjoying themselves and their open borders, Russians were paying attention from day 1 of this epidemic in China, working with China to develop tests, get information on what this is, prepare for it. On Jan 31, they shut down Russia/China border. When flights between Europe and Russia were open, they tested flights arriving from Northern Italy and were quarantining all passengers, even if one passengers tests positive. Hence, when the virus came to Russia, they were fully prepared. Sick and death toll is nowhere as much, hospitals are prepared and equipped, and they do not have patients dying in the hallways without help. They also did not institute carpet bans for businesses - just recommendation to work on weekend schedule until end of Apr.

Where were Europeans? Where were American authorities? After all SARS, swine flus - do they even have an establishment responsible for early monitoring and planning? If not - why not? If yes - where have they been? There has been ample of time - Dec, Jan and Feb - to plan and prepare, but nothing was done. Unselective carpet bans "until further notice" don't help anything either. Hence the results. 95% of this mess could have been avoided.
 
anrec80
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:42 pm

Jetsgo wrote:
Wait, you don’t actually believe the reported death tolls coming out of China, Russia, and Iran... do you? That would be textbook naivety.


Why not? Both of those nations have excellent epidemic services staffed with experts who did their jobs, identified and modeled the threat early, while in the USA they were impeaching Trump and in Europe enjoying life even while in Italy they were dying already. Hence Russia and China were able to avoid bulk of the damage Western nations are facing.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:13 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
3. Let the US' economy crash while yours also crashes



Yeah, we will see about that. You could lose and still win, if your opponent loses more than you.


DeltaMD90 wrote:
And AirWorthy99, what? There has been a huge lack of the ability by Western governments to keep people indoors. Hardly authoritarian. Trump is being the authoritarian? Can't imagine how crazy it'd be if Obama was in office now (people would be losing their minds)



Whenever you remove freedoms from people, you are enforcing your rule on them. The government, federal, state or local, Democrat or Republican, controls the police, and therefore has the power to mandate you to do as they say, or face prison or fines.

Right now in Republican controlled Florida, I can't go out unless is for something "essential". Though most of you will say its correct for them to do so, you are removing my freedoms and my rights without me even being a burden or a threat to anyone. Yes you all can say I might be one without knowing etc. We have a brain, government assumes we don't have one, we can clean our hands, exercise caution but no, the same thing they did when they told us that we needn't use masks, when it turns out we could have.

Millions are losing their jobs, livelihoods, yet the government under the advisement of 'experts' isn't clear until when we are to be under house arrest, and if it would be worth the economic depression or huge societal problems that will coming when it ends.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
KFTG
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:15 pm

China needs to be reeled-in; not a war, but a unilateral international response to their unsustainable growth, lax environmental regulations, etc.
 
winginit
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:40 pm

No.



The End.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:42 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
3. Let the US' economy crash while yours also crashes



Yeah, we will see about that. You could lose and still win, if your opponent loses more than you.


A statement that is not false. I'm hearing a lot of statements that are not false. Again, cool, we have a bunch of non-false statements. How do we get from there to bioweapons? Assuming you are also propping up this theory, if not, that's primarily who I am addressing

Baically, I'm hearing "bioweapons! Vague non-false statement, vague non-false statement, vague non-false statement, vague non-false statement, see? Biowepaons!" Need actual evidence.

At best, ^ is a possible motive and suspicious, but not anything beyond that

AirWorthy99 wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
And AirWorthy99, what? There has been a huge lack of the ability by Western governments to keep people indoors. Hardly authoritarian. Trump is being the authoritarian? Can't imagine how crazy it'd be if Obama was in office now (people would be losing their minds)



Whenever you remove freedoms from people, you are enforcing your rule on them. The government, federal, state or local, Democrat or Republican, controls the police, and therefore has the power to mandate you to do as they say, or face prison or fines.

Right now in Republican controlled Florida, I can't go out unless is for something "essential". Though most of you will say its correct for them to do so, you are removing my freedoms and my rights without me even being a burden or a threat to anyone. Yes you all can say I might be one without knowing etc. We have a brain, government assumes we don't have one, we can clean our hands, exercise caution but no, the same thing they did when they told us that we needn't use masks, when it turns out we could have.

Millions are losing their jobs, livelihoods, yet the government under the advisement of 'experts' isn't clear until when we are to be under house arrest, and if it would be worth the economic depression or huge societal problems that will coming when it ends.

I suppose in the most black and white, nuance-free world, sure, it's authoritarian. Nevermind there are actual authoritarian governments doing much, much, much worse. Short of pure anarchy, you're going to have a government. They're gonna tell you ("force you") to do things. Sure, "when should we open the economy?" and "should our governor have ordered a lockdown or should he have done it earlier?" are valid questions, but I really think the authoritarian claims are hyperbolic (very half assed measures during a unprecedented global pandemic is not all authoritarian in my book)
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:49 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
I guess SARS was a failed bioweapon? Are bats and pangolins enemies of the US? China spread it all over their country instead of starting with the US? Why not use something like swine flu, didn't that start in the US? What a crappy bioweapon

Am I missing something?!


I highly doubt the coronavirus is a bioweapon.

That said, I would not put it past the CIA to do something like this. This administration has done many things that previously would've been considered extremely reckless and irresponsible. The Trump admin thrives on rash, ill-thought, dangerous and risky decisions. Accidentally destroying the world economy and killing thousands of people across the globe would fit nicely into the admin's playbook.
Last edited by sonicruiser on Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:53 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
A statement that is not false. I'm hearing a lot of statements that are not false. Again, cool, we have a bunch of non-false statements. How do we get from there to bioweapons? Assuming you are also propping up this theory, if not, that's primarily who I am addressing

Baically, I'm hearing "bioweapons! Vague non-false statement, vague non-false statement, vague non-false statement, vague non-false statement, see? Biowepaons!" Need actual evidence.

At best, ^ is a possible motive and suspicious, but not anything beyond that



Keep in mind, I have said in this forum I am not a fan of conspiracy theories. And there is no actual evidence of anything. In fact they may not have done this in purpose at all, but even inadvertently they could still win from this, even if it was not their original intent.

China is our adversary, not our ally. And please let us remember 20th century history, they are the political descendants of Mao, tens of millions died under him all in the name of ideology and ultimately unchecked and limitelss power.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:56 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
The death toll in the US has already passed both China and Iran and is still climbing.

That is if you believe honesty of their reporting... I don't.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:10 pm

Aesma wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Many on the left like this and some in the right, and if anyone questions this, all of the sudden is to be vanished and labeled some fancy derogatory term.


Abbott of Australia says the lockdown will last 6 months.

I see only right wing and far right leaders in that list...


It’s not 2015, It’s been 5 years and 2 prime ministers since Abbott had the job.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12721
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:14 pm

KFTG wrote:
China needs to be reeled-in; not a war, but a unilateral international response to their unsustainable growth, lax environmental regulations, etc.


A bit of whataboutism here, the US isn’t a paragon when it comes to environmental regulations and your entire economy is built on printing money and increasing the debt ceiling, that’s hardly stable or economically prudent.
 
KFTG
Posts: 649
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:18 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
A bit of whataboutism here, the US isn’t a paragon when it comes to environmental regulations and your entire economy is built on printing money and increasing the debt ceiling, that’s hardly stable or economically prudent.

Anyone else a China apologist?
Tell me, where did this virus originate?
There is a reason why China is (once again, now that there is int'l attention on them) banning "wet markets".
In 6 months, when the world has "moved on", they will re-open them.
At which point ANOTHER "novel" virus will emerge and hopefully not kill your family.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6217
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:07 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Russians were paying attention from day 1 of this epidemic in China, working with China to develop tests, get information on what this is, prepare for it. On Jan 31, they shut down Russia/China border. When flights between Europe and Russia were open, they tested flights arriving from Northern Italy and were quarantining all passengers, even if one passengers tests positive. Hence, when the virus came to Russia, they were fully prepared. Sick and death toll is nowhere as much, hospitals are prepared and equipped, and they do not have patients dying in the hallways without help. They also did not institute carpet bans for businesses - just recommendation to work on weekend schedule until end of Apr.


My name is Vladimir Putin and I approve this message.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 11544
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:31 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
3. Let the US' economy crash while yours also crashes



Yeah, we will see about that. You could lose and still win, if your opponent loses more than you.


DeltaMD90 wrote:
And AirWorthy99, what? There has been a huge lack of the ability by Western governments to keep people indoors. Hardly authoritarian. Trump is being the authoritarian? Can't imagine how crazy it'd be if Obama was in office now (people would be losing their minds)



Whenever you remove freedoms from people, you are enforcing your rule on them. The government, federal, state or local, Democrat or Republican, controls the police, and therefore has the power to mandate you to do as they say, or face prison or fines.

Right now in Republican controlled Florida, I can't go out unless is for something "essential". Though most of you will say its correct for them to do so, you are removing my freedoms and my rights without me even being a burden or a threat to anyone. Yes you all can say I might be one without knowing etc. We have a brain, government assumes we don't have one, we can clean our hands, exercise caution but no, the same thing they did when they told us that we needn't use masks, when it turns out we could have.

Millions are losing their jobs, livelihoods, yet the government under the advisement of 'experts' isn't clear until when we are to be under house arrest, and if it would be worth the economic depression or huge societal problems that will coming when it ends.


Lol what is your source for ‘freedoms being removed’?? Quite sure the law books haven’t been burned and the courts are still functioning. Freedom of movement has been suspended, temporarily - but in a society where government has Constitutional powers to take action for public health and welfare - that’ll sometimes happen. You can always go off grid and not be part of society if that makes you uncomfortable.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12721
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:38 am

KFTG wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
A bit of whataboutism here, the US isn’t a paragon when it comes to environmental regulations and your entire economy is built on printing money and increasing the debt ceiling, that’s hardly stable or economically prudent.

Anyone else a China apologist?
Tell me, where did this virus originate?
There is a reason why China is (once again, now that there is int'l attention on them) banning "wet markets".
In 6 months, when the world has "moved on", they will re-open them.
At which point ANOTHER "novel" virus will emerge and hopefully not kill your family.


I don't care where the Covid-19 originated from, just like I don't care where Ebola came from, or MERS, or Zika.

Virus can start anywhere, at anytime, this one started in China, the next one could start in Norway, New Zealand or the Vatican City. Are we going to sanction and punish every country where a virus starts?

For example. The first recorded case of Spanish flu was in the USA.

On 4 March 1918, company cook Albert Gitchell, from Haskell County, reported sick at Fort Riley, a US military facility that at the time was training American troops during World War I, making him the first recorded victim of the flu. Within days, 522 men at the camp had reported sick. In the end an estimated 50 million people died.

By your own reasoning the US is responsible for the deaths of an estimated 50m people (some sources put it as high as 100m), was the US held to account for it? Was the US sanctioned, did they pay reparations?

The 2009 Swine flu epidemic originated in Central Mexico then traveled to the US where it then spread out across the world, an estimated 579,000 people died from it, was Mexico or the US sanctioned or punished, did either country pay reparations to the rest of the world?

So go on punish China for Covid-19 but remember when a pandemic originates from the US you will also be held to account......

The amount of stupid in this thread is beyond belief.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 11544
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:52 am

Kiwirob wrote:
KFTG wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
A bit of whataboutism here, the US isn’t a paragon when it comes to environmental regulations and your entire economy is built on printing money and increasing the debt ceiling, that’s hardly stable or economically prudent.

Anyone else a China apologist?
Tell me, where did this virus originate?
There is a reason why China is (once again, now that there is int'l attention on them) banning "wet markets".
In 6 months, when the world has "moved on", they will re-open them.
At which point ANOTHER "novel" virus will emerge and hopefully not kill your family.


I don't care where the Covid-19 originated from, just like I don't care where Ebola came from, or MERS, or Zika.

Virus can start anywhere, at anytime, this one started in China, the next one could start in Norway, New Zealand or the Vatican City. Are we going to sanction and punish every country where a virus starts?

For example. The first recorded case of Spanish flu was in the USA.

On 4 March 1918, company cook Albert Gitchell, from Haskell County, reported sick at Fort Riley, a US military facility that at the time was training American troops during World War I, making him the first recorded victim of the flu. Within days, 522 men at the camp had reported sick. In the end an estimated 50 million people died.

By your own reasoning the US is responsible for the deaths of an estimated 50m people (some sources put it as high as 100m), was the US held to account for it? Was the US sanctioned, did they pay reparations?

The 2009 Swine flu epidemic originated in Central Mexico then traveled to the US where it then spread out across the world, an estimated 579,000 people died from it, was Mexico or the US sanctioned or punished, did either country pay reparations to the rest of the world?

So go on punish China for Covid-19 but remember when a pandemic originates from the US you will also be held to account......

The amount of stupid in this thread is beyond belief.


Good points all. Nature doesn’t give two shits about our human designations of borders and geographic location.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12743
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:11 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
China is our adversary, not our ally. And please let us remember 20th century history, they are the political descendants of Mao, tens of millions died under him all in the name of ideology and ultimately unchecked and limitelss power.


Under Trump, does the US still have allies ? It doesn't appear so.

As long as you buy countless stuff from China, and they buy countless stuff from you, then adversaries doesn't seem like the right word to describe the relationship...
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:18 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
KFTG wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
A bit of whataboutism here, the US isn’t a paragon when it comes to environmental regulations and your entire economy is built on printing money and increasing the debt ceiling, that’s hardly stable or economically prudent.

Anyone else a China apologist?
Tell me, where did this virus originate?
There is a reason why China is (once again, now that there is int'l attention on them) banning "wet markets".
In 6 months, when the world has "moved on", they will re-open them.
At which point ANOTHER "novel" virus will emerge and hopefully not kill your family.


I don't care where the Covid-19 originated from, just like I don't care where Ebola came from, or MERS, or Zika.

Virus can start anywhere, at anytime, this one started in China, the next one could start in Norway, New Zealand or the Vatican City. Are we going to sanction and punish every country where a virus starts?

For example. The first recorded case of Spanish flu was in the USA.

On 4 March 1918, company cook Albert Gitchell, from Haskell County, reported sick at Fort Riley, a US military facility that at the time was training American troops during World War I, making him the first recorded victim of the flu. Within days, 522 men at the camp had reported sick. In the end an estimated 50 million people died.

By your own reasoning the US is responsible for the deaths of an estimated 50m people (some sources put it as high as 100m), was the US held to account for it? Was the US sanctioned, did they pay reparations?

The 2009 Swine flu epidemic originated in Central Mexico then traveled to the US where it then spread out across the world, an estimated 579,000 people died from it, was Mexico or the US sanctioned or punished, did either country pay reparations to the rest of the world?

So go on punish China for Covid-19 but remember when a pandemic originates from the US you will also be held to account......

The amount of stupid in this thread is beyond belief.

I'm not in the punish-China camp (though I'd like if we took some manufacturing back home, have them police unsanitary conditions, critical of much that they do, etc), but you're missing part of the argument

It's not that it originated from China, it's that they did nothing to mitigate the conditions that may have caused it, which caused SARS, and which cause more viruses. Also, their handling of it.

Honestly, the former argument is a good point if we can indeed trace it back to the wet markets. The latter argument is sticky, basically each side will say it was handled well or not well enough.

But again, you're leaving out critical parts of the argument. If there were multiple pandemics coming out of the US and the US had a better understanding of pandemics in 1918, the US would be a lot more responsible for the Spanish Flu (if it did indeed come from the US)

Aaron747 wrote:
Good points all. Nature doesn’t give two shits about our human designations of borders and geographic location.

I hear this a lot, why do people say this? I don't think anyone has ever said the opposite or even insinuated it. Not the people wanting China to be held responsible* nor the people calling it the Chinese Virus**

* I don't hold this position, see my response to kiwirob
** I don't call it the Chinese Virus but really don't see this as a big deal or racist. I think Wuhan Flu is even more accurate but I just call it "corona virus" like a basic bitch lol
 
Jalap
Posts: 586
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:38 pm

I'm optimistic and think the world will come out stronger and more unified.
For most people are reasonable enough to realise there is nobody or nothing to blame for all of this. And working together is the best way out.
Hopefully people will choose to dump leaders who thrive on conflict. Because conflict REALLY is the last thing we need now.
 
Jalap
Posts: 586
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:53 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Jetsgo wrote:
Wait, you don’t actually believe the reported death tolls coming out of China, Russia, and Iran... do you? That would be textbook naivety.


Why not? Both of those nations have excellent epidemic services staffed with experts who did their jobs, identified and modeled the threat early, while in the USA they were impeaching Trump and in Europe enjoying life even while in Italy they were dying already. Hence Russia and China were able to avoid bulk of the damage Western nations are facing.

You speak in past terms about Russia while they have over 10% increase of infections daily. And since I don't have the highest confidence in Russian official numbers, one can suspect it'll be worse than that.
They are today where the USA was mid March. They did take serious measures earlier than the USA but it would be quite naive to think things won't get very bad over there as well.
 
Jalap
Posts: 586
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:06 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
History has the unfortunate inclination of repeating itself.

I'm no historian but can't immediatelt think of wars that were prompted by a pandemy.
As for economy, I think wars are more likely to start during a strong global economy than they are when the global economy is in shambles.

But again, I'm no historian. So please elaborate on which wars in history were started because of a global economy collapse.

In my opinion, chances of a new world war are shrinking every day.
Chances of civil war or countries falling into anarchy I do believe are increasing. Especially in those with poor health care and/or lying totalitarian leaders.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1032
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:07 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
3. Let the US' economy crash while yours also crashes



Yeah, we will see about that. You could lose and still win, if your opponent loses more than you.


DeltaMD90 wrote:
And AirWorthy99, what? There has been a huge lack of the ability by Western governments to keep people indoors. Hardly authoritarian. Trump is being the authoritarian? Can't imagine how crazy it'd be if Obama was in office now (people would be losing their minds)



Whenever you remove freedoms from people, you are enforcing your rule on them. The government, federal, state or local, Democrat or Republican, controls the police, and therefore has the power to mandate you to do as they say, or face prison or fines.

Right now in Republican controlled Florida, I can't go out unless is for something "essential". Though most of you will say its correct for them to do so, you are removing my freedoms and my rights without me even being a burden or a threat to anyone. Yes you all can say I might be one without knowing etc. We have a brain, government assumes we don't have one, we can clean our hands, exercise caution but no, the same thing they did when they told us that we needn't use masks, when it turns out we could have.

Millions are losing their jobs, livelihoods, yet the government under the advisement of 'experts' isn't clear until when we are to be under house arrest, and if it would be worth the economic depression or huge societal problems that will coming when it ends.


Lol what is your source for ‘freedoms being removed’?? Quite sure the law books haven’t been burned and the courts are still functioning. Freedom of movement has been suspended, temporarily - but in a society where government has Constitutional powers to take action for public health and welfare - that’ll sometimes happen. You can always go off grid and not be part of society if that makes you uncomfortable.


Well, I can't go to church, family have businesses that are closed because the government mandated to close, many other things, I am sure there are worse things. We are not complaining because we all agree (for now) this is for a greater good, but banning or discouraging activities which are essential to our freedoms is one of the things we are enduring because of this. You seem to have very simple ways of dismissing all of this, and your trust on experts to do as they say and not even question them, we are obeying, the question is till when are we to continue this?
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1032
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:10 pm

Jalap wrote:
Hopefully people will choose to dump leaders who thrive on conflict.


I am sorry but those in China, Russia, Iran and others don't have that choice. We (in the western world) can continue to elect weak leaders at the expense of those nations removing our freedoms from outside, if they continuously go unchecked.

We are currently dealing with a crisis caused by the lack of transparency and honesty of a communist dictatorship. And the bad part no one will be able to vote them out of office.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 11544
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:11 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
I hear this a lot, why do people say this? I don't think anyone has ever said the opposite or even insinuated it.


It’s beyond that and self explanatory from a bigger picture view. Discussions of location are largely irrelevant outside of the specific field of tropical medicine. New bugs emerge all the time, from a variety of sources. Scientifically, where from isn’t nearly as important as what they are and how they propagate.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 11544
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Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:13 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:


Yeah, we will see about that. You could lose and still win, if your opponent loses more than you.




Whenever you remove freedoms from people, you are enforcing your rule on them. The government, federal, state or local, Democrat or Republican, controls the police, and therefore has the power to mandate you to do as they say, or face prison or fines.

Right now in Republican controlled Florida, I can't go out unless is for something "essential". Though most of you will say its correct for them to do so, you are removing my freedoms and my rights without me even being a burden or a threat to anyone. Yes you all can say I might be one without knowing etc. We have a brain, government assumes we don't have one, we can clean our hands, exercise caution but no, the same thing they did when they told us that we needn't use masks, when it turns out we could have.

Millions are losing their jobs, livelihoods, yet the government under the advisement of 'experts' isn't clear until when we are to be under house arrest, and if it would be worth the economic depression or huge societal problems that will coming when it ends.


Lol what is your source for ‘freedoms being removed’?? Quite sure the law books haven’t been burned and the courts are still functioning. Freedom of movement has been suspended, temporarily - but in a society where government has Constitutional powers to take action for public health and welfare - that’ll sometimes happen. You can always go off grid and not be part of society if that makes you uncomfortable.


Well, I can't go to church, family have businesses that are closed because the government mandated to close, many other things, I am sure there are worse things. We are not complaining because we all agree (for now) this is for a greater good, but banning or discouraging activities which are essential to our freedoms is one of the things we are enduring because of this. You seem to have very simple ways of dismissing all of this, and your trust on experts to do as they say and not even question them, we are obeying, the question is till when are we to continue this?


That question has been asked and answered repeatedly on God knows how many threads.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 11544
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:14 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Jalap wrote:
Hopefully people will choose to dump leaders who thrive on conflict.


I am sorry but those in China, Russia, Iran and others don't have that choice. We (in the western world) can continue to elect weak leaders at the expense of those nations removing our freedoms from outside, if they continuously go unchecked.

We are currently dealing with a crisis caused by the lack of transparency and honesty of a communist dictatorship. And the bad part no one will be able to vote them out of office.


Whee doggie AirWorthy has cracked the case folks! No need for further discussion, we know the cause of the crisis now. I feel better, don’t you?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1032
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:16 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Lol what is your source for ‘freedoms being removed’?? Quite sure the law books haven’t been burned and the courts are still functioning. Freedom of movement has been suspended, temporarily - but in a society where government has Constitutional powers to take action for public health and welfare - that’ll sometimes happen. You can always go off grid and not be part of society if that makes you uncomfortable.


Well, I can't go to church, family have businesses that are closed because the government mandated to close, many other things, I am sure there are worse things. We are not complaining because we all agree (for now) this is for a greater good, but banning or discouraging activities which are essential to our freedoms is one of the things we are enduring because of this. You seem to have very simple ways of dismissing all of this, and your trust on experts to do as they say and not even question them, we are obeying, the question is till when are we to continue this?


That question has been asked and answered repeatedly on God knows how many threads.


Yes and no definite answer has come up. Some projection that keeps shifting by the day, and millions of people losing their jobs as a result.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1032
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:18 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Jalap wrote:
Hopefully people will choose to dump leaders who thrive on conflict.


I am sorry but those in China, Russia, Iran and others don't have that choice. We (in the western world) can continue to elect weak leaders at the expense of those nations removing our freedoms from outside, if they continuously go unchecked.

We are currently dealing with a crisis caused by the lack of transparency and honesty of a communist dictatorship. And the bad part no one will be able to vote them out of office.


Whee doggie AirWorthy has cracked the case folks! No need for further discussion, we know the cause of the crisis now. I feel better, don’t you?


You are of the belief that government is to be run by intelligent and smart people everywhere. This crisis has exposed that no country was prepared for this. But China held on to the truth about this virus for months, if you disagree fine.

I can only think of 2 countries managing this correctly: South Korea and Taiwan.
Last edited by AirWorthy99 on Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
anrec80
Posts: 2610
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Could we be headed for WW3 over Covid19?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:18 pm

Jalap wrote:
You speak in past terms about Russia while they have over 10% increase of infections daily. And since I don't have the highest confidence in Russian official numbers, one can suspect it'll be worse than that.
They are today where the USA was mid March. They did take serious measures earlier than the USA but it would be quite naive to think things won't get very bad over there as well.


And nonetheless Russia’s casualties are in a few dozen range, and a few thousands of infected. Yes, the peak may or may not be there yet. And yes, things still can take drastic turn, but they aren’t on the worst track for them - yet at least. Measures wise - yes, Moscow has the most serious measures taken, since 3/4 of coronavirus infections and casualties are in that 12 million city, while for most of the rest of the country life is close to normal.

Speaking of increases - often that is the result of earlier detection and better accessibility of testing. They keep distributing test kits to more and more clinics, both government and private.

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