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Sokes
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:25 pm

BasilFawlty wrote:
You know what is wrong? People seeing their lifework businesses going bankrupt because they are forced to close their companies. You know what is wrong? Millions of people losing their jobs, unable to pay their bills and rent/mortgage and driven in to poverty and causing serious health issues in the longer term.
...
That all sounds great as long as you have an income every month. If you're one of many unlucky ones who can't do their work at home or when you no longer have an income at all I highly doubt reading books, watching videos and playing games will help you.


O.k., on this I'm willing to engage with you seriously.
There are still many sicknesses which don't have a vaccination, nor treatment. How long do we want to keep children from 5-12 years without peers?

I believe the shutdown at the moment is required, and surely a few weeks and maybe even months more, to prepare for Corona cases. I live in India. It's a young society. Most poor won't be able to afford one month intensive care for a 85 year old. Accordingly intensive care beds are few. There is no hope to create that capacity. I hope they manage to build up infrastructure for enough Oxygen bottles and refill to treat those patients that need Oxygen.

In wealthier places there should at least be intensive care facilities for those who don't have chronic conditions beside ordinary old age diabetes. So it takes time to create enough capacity. I also believe Europe/ US will have to create additional infrastructure for Oxygen. There are IIRC four times more patients needing Oxygen as compared to intensive care. I believe that includes working population and even you are at risk.

Can we wait till we have a vaccine? This is something to discuss.
Let's say the truth is in the middle. So once the infrastructure is in place one could consider to start infecting those with very low risk by purpose. Let's say for Germany daily 100.000 people, starting with twenty years old, under controlled conditions. People with a history of lung trouble are excluded. School buildings and sport halls could be used as dormitories. They are released once they recover. Depending on free intensive care capacity one may be able to increase the number. People above 50 wait for a future vaccination. People between 40 - 50 years are chosen depending on health.

Infections under controlled conditions have the advantage that those affected get enough sleep and stay away from alcohol/ cigarettes and whatever else lowers the immune system. They can get optimum nutrition. They also don't run around as asymptomatic carriers.

This is as far as I can go. I guess most will find it horrible that I am willing to infect people on purpose. But it will give some perspective to when we can return to normal. What if there is no vaccination in two years? Should all above 65 years old stay in social isolation for good?

I believe isolating old people, let's say above 65 years, is the reasonable thing to do for time being.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
BN747
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:04 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It's interesting that you are focused on "your life" and not that of others. Why is it all about you? Aren't the needs of others worth considering?
I am very familiar with this line of thinking; I meet it nearly every day.

I have a (mildly) autistic son. High functioning, has a job, drives a car, raids the fridge as soon as he gets home. But if you try to suggest he should think of others, his eyes glaze over. He knows that eventually you will shut up and he can go back to what he was doing.

But the most worrying thing? Sometimes I see what he does, and how he thinks, and wonder if on another day that could have been me.

But yeah, there are several contributors to this thread showing all the classic symptoms. You cannot win. You are not inhabiting the same universe as they are.


Several good points made by you here...
I have a question, when you say, his eye glaze over what is that indicative of in your interpretation or understanding. What is he expressing annoyance, discomfort, anger?

The extra-dimensional universe you expressed is indeed a real thing.
Example, the same people who are on this site advocating people have this TDS because they won't tolerate a grown man who acts like a teenage girl (endless tweeting), expresses his anger uncontrollably, no ability to control impulses, a pathological liar, immoral, greedy and whines constantly how people (cabinet mems, media, Dems, everyone) should be loyal to him...because he is the president.

Now, would any of them hold the same respect for Elon Musk if he were...
...a grown man who acts like a teenage girl (endless tweeting like kid), expresses his anger uncontrollably, no ability to control impulses, a pathological liar, immoral, greedy and whines constantly how everyone should be loyal to him.

Now, would any of them hold the same respect for Mark Cuban if he were...
...a grown man who acts like a teenage girl (endless tweeting like kid), expresses his anger uncontrollably, no ability to control impulses, a pathological liar, immoral, greedy and whines constantly how everyone should be loyal to him.

Now, would any of them hold the same respect for Tom Brady if he were...
...a grown man who acts like a teenage girl (endless tweeting like kid), expresses his anger uncontrollably, no ability to control impulses, a pathological liar, immoral, greedy and whines constantly how everyone should be loyal to him.

Now, would any of them hold the same respect for Connor McGregor if he were...
...a grown man who acts like a teenage girl (endless tweeting like kid), expresses his anger uncontrollably, no ability to control impulses, a pathological liar, immoral, greedy and whines constantly how everyone should be loyal to him.

Now, would any of them hold the same respect for Manny Pacquiao if he were...
...a grown man who acts like a teenage girl (endless tweeting like kid), expresses his anger uncontrollably, no ability to control impulses, a pathological liar, immoral, greedy and whines constantly how everyone should be loyal to him.

Now, would any of them hold the same respect for Rory McIlroy if he were...
...a grown man who acts like a teenage girl (endless tweeting like kid), expresses his anger uncontrollably, no ability to control impulses, a pathological liar, immoral, greedy and whines constantly how everyone should be loyal to him.

Now, would any of them hold the same respect for Joe Rogan if he were...
...a grown man who acts like a teenage girl (endless tweeting like kid), expresses his anger uncontrollably, no ability to control impulses, a pathological liar, immoral, greedy and whines constantly how everyone should be loyal to him.

Or their own son or daugther grew aging on their way to 72yo with any or all those traits.

Not a single one of them reading this would accept any of those damning attributes on any of their favorite sports, biz, celebrities or their own kids and I challenge any one of them to prove me wrong....not one can nor will.

There is indeed a parallel universe where someone like trump MUST be defended at all cost and/or close to it. To enable your leader to carry on acting like a teenage girl (endless tweeting like kid), expresses his anger uncontrollably, no ability to control impulses, a pathological liar, immoral, greedy and whines constantly how everyone should be loyal to him...

...you are so not normal, not even close.
That by definition is Trump Insanity Syndrome - TIS all the way. Trump Insanity because of the list above, trump is the only one that these people will accept that kind of behavior, and they love proving it. Even entire media networks revel in spreading this disease.


and if TDS is finding grown adults (let alone a leader of a country - YOUR country) who acts like a teenage girl (endless tweeting like kid), expresses his anger uncontrollably, no ability to control impulses, a pathological liar, immoral, greedy and whines constantly how everyone should be loyal to him..

Then TDS me into the next century because I will always hold those despicable characteristics to the worst type of human beings walking the earth. Only a murderer would be worse and these people are the silent accomplices both contain the same traits.

Yep, there is indeed a distinct parallel universe where these toxic characteristics thrive...we see displays of it daily as they praise, defend and enable the worst leader a free society could ever have.

BN747
Last edited by BN747 on Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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Tugger
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:16 pm

continental004 wrote:
Why are we messing with what we can't conquer?

Because that is what humans have been doing for their entire existence. You can say it is what makes humans "humans"

But of course you already know this and that humans have "conquered" many things that are/were unconquerable.

But look at the thread you have created!

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Sokes
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:09 pm

BN747 wrote:
The extra-dimensional universe you expressed is indeed a real thing.
Example, the same people who are on this site advocating people have this TDS because they won't tolerate a grown man who acts like a teenage girl (endless tweeting), expresses his anger uncontrollably, no ability to control impulses, a pathological liar, immoral, greedy and whines constantly how people (cabinet mems, media, Dems, everyone) should be loyal to him...because he is the president.

Can you formulate it different? I don't understand what you mean. What is TDS?

BN747 wrote:
Yep, there is indeed a distinct parallel universe where these toxic characteristics thrive...we see displays of it daily as they praise, defend and enable the worst leader a free society could ever have.

In which way is Trump worse than George Bush Junior?
After Syria and Libya, I would have voted for Trump. Not that I find him intellectually inspiring, but as the lesser evil.
You think that's because I'm a little autistic?
Do you have any evidence that those who follow or even defend his tweets have a high probability of autism? I laugh about him as much as his critics.
Or let me ask this way: Is the majority of US citizens autistic?

You know the movie "Rain Man"? That guy has strong autism. The classical Trump supporter?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
BN747
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:17 pm

Sokes wrote:
BN747 wrote:
The extra-dimensional universe you expressed is indeed a real thing.
Example, the same people who are on this site advocating people have this TDS because they won't tolerate a grown man who acts like a teenage girl (endless tweeting), expresses his anger uncontrollably, no ability to control impulses, a pathological liar, immoral, greedy and whines constantly how people (cabinet mems, media, Dems, everyone) should be loyal to him...because he is the president.

Can you formulate it different? I don't understand what you mean. What is TDS?

BN747 wrote:
Yep, there is indeed a distinct parallel universe where these toxic characteristics thrive...we see displays of it daily as they praise, defend and enable the worst leader a free society could ever have.

In which way is Trump worse than George Bush Junior?
After Syria and Libya, I would have voted for Trump. Not that I find him intellectually inspiring, but as the lesser evil.
You think that's because I'm a little autistic?
Do you have any evidence that those who follow or even defend his tweets have a high probability of autism? I laugh about him as much as his critics.
Or let me ask this way: Is the majority of US citizens autistic?


Sokes, I respect your trying to dive into into many areas brother but I can not engage with you to the extend you seek, I'm just one person recalling history as it happened from my perspective, you do not have that personal reference to draw on.

This may be all fun and games, a joke to you. But all this that has happened..happened in real life, to real people...just like now what is happening to real people and this real clown who has some insane people that he is a competent president (trump). Considering trump's display of experience to date, my ailing out of shape semi illiterate ex-neighbor could 'president' in the exact same manner..just she lied far less.

So I leave you to your own devices to 'catch up' since you were not there to see it for yourself.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
BasilFawlty wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Yes, I do. Not necessarily smile, but make the best of a less than ideal situation. Read books. Watch videos. Play games. Use the phone and/or the internet to reach out to people you talk to a lot, and to others who may not be as close any more.

That all sounds great as long as you have an income every month. If you're one of many unlucky ones who can't do their work at home or when you no longer have an income at all I highly doubt reading books, watching videos and playing games will help you.

What's the alternative, go out and catch a virus you won't know you've caught and spread it to everyone you care about so everyone ends up in a struggle for their lives? Some will live but some will not, and now you can add the cost of medical bills and perhaps a funeral to your worries.

TTailedTiger wrote:
Have you ever lined up dominos and then watched them fall down one by one? Because it was chosen to punish everyone, I haven't been able to oversee my businesses since all of us are locked up. I'm going to have to really make up for it when we are allowed to leave. I normally do everything I can to negotiate a deal with someone who I have a lien against. I don't want to see them lose all of the equity in their home. But now with so much time taken away from me I'll just instruct the comptroller to assign me the tax deeds and then I'll file motions to remove the occupants. See, you've now made it much worse for these people. When one person suffers a harship you can be sure more will follow. It didn't have to be this way.

It was chosen to protect everyone, not to punish everyone.

Tenants and homeowners can't pay if they are dead or if they end up with huge medical bills that could have been prevented cheaply by simple isolation.

You yourself are not immune, and you may become libel for anyone you pay to serve papers etc that does become ill.

Because of the quarantine, the odds you can successfully do business are next to nil.

Maybe you should use this time to study some philosophy and try to become a better human being?


I think you mean liable. And no, I wouldn't be. That's like saying you'd be liable if the mail man got infected delivering a certified letter that you mailed.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:12 pm

BN747 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It's interesting that [xxx] are focused on "your life" and not that of others. Why is it all about you? Aren't the needs of others worth considering?
I am very familiar with this line of thinking; I meet it nearly every day.

I have a (mildly) autistic son. High functioning, has a job, drives a car, raids the fridge as soon as he gets home. But if you try to suggest he should think of others, his eyes glaze over. He knows that eventually you will shut up and he can go back to what he was doing.

I have a question, when you say, his eye glaze over what is that indicative of in your interpretation or understanding. What is he expressing annoyance, discomfort, anger?
Boredom.
He isn't questioning whether what I (or others ) say is correct, or whether he is guilty as charged (the empty biscuit barrel speaks for itself); it's just that he isn't going to change, so why do I insist on wasting his time blathering on.

It's like my doctor telling me I'm overweight and need to diet.
I listen patiently, I know he's right. And then I'll go home and stuff my face. :lol:

The difference with my son is that his (selfish) actions have a direct impact on others. He also relies on others "playing the game" so that he can pick and choose what is best for him.
To be fair, if we split a quart of ice cream, and I "accidentally" eat more than half, he won't b1tch about it. It's just that it's unlikely that I'll ever get there first to be in that position. He has a kind of low cunning that makes sure he gets in first. :lol:

But once you've accepted his faults, he is actually quite loveable.

Unfortunately his mother doesn't afford me the same consideration. :white:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
BN747
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:17 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
BN747 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
I am very familiar with this line of thinking; I meet it nearly every day.

I have a (mildly) autistic son. High functioning, has a job, drives a car, raids the fridge as soon as he gets home. But if you try to suggest he should think of others, his eyes glaze over. He knows that eventually you will shut up and he can go back to what he was doing.

I have a question, when you say, his eye glaze over what is that indicative of in your interpretation or understanding. What is he expressing annoyance, discomfort, anger?
Boredom.
He isn't questioning whether what I (or others ) say is correct, or whether he is guilty as charged (the empty biscuit barrel speaks for itself); it's just that he isn't going to change, so why do I insist on wasting his time blathering on.

It's like my doctor telling me I'm overweight and need to diet.
I listen patiently, I know he's right. And then I'll go home and stuff my face. :lol:

The difference with my son is that his (selfish) actions have a direct impact on others. He also relies on others "playing the game" so that he can pick and choose what is best for him.
To be fair, if we split a quart of ice cream, and I "accidentally" eat more than half, he won't b1tch about it. It's just that it's unlikely that I'll ever get there first to be in that position. He has a kind of low cunning that makes sure he gets in first. :lol:

But once you've accepted his faults, he is actually quite loveable.

Unfortunately his mother doesn't afford me the same consideration. :white:


Interesting, sounds like a clever kid.
But must defer to parents such as yourself on this matters because I know nothing about people suffering such issues.

But it does sound like you 'vegone the distance in preparing to hold a job to function completely on his own a sail thru life like anyone else.

Best wishes.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:46 pm

Sokes wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
I have a (mildly) autistic son. High functioning.....
Does your son show emotional reactions while watching an emotional movie?
Good question.
He doesn't really sit down and watch TV with us. Then again, many of today's generation are the same; they would rather watch their choice of media on their own device, even if the screen is only 2½" across.
Maybe you & I would have been the same if such an option had existed in our youth?
It's not that people with autism lack the capacity for empathy, they are simply unable to recognize emotional reactions in others.
I was a slow developer in that respect, laughing at others pain whilst at school, taking pride in showing no emotion at other times.
And now;
I wish I could turn the clock back and say sorry to so many people.
And when it comes to emotional scenes in films or dramas I am quite astonished as to how fragile I have become.
It is as if I was autistic when younger, but now (finally) I have matured into a proper adult. Or maybe I'm still on that journey?

The opposite would be a psychopath. These people can read other people's mind. They understand what other people feel, but are unable for empathy.

Nevertheless you have a point.
I was always rather selfish. My wife complains that my son doesn't show concern for her needs. However if she starts crying it does distress him. He is receptive only for the very obvious.
Even Sheldon Cooper feels uncomfortable when Penny starts crying.
Yes, yes, yes.... and yes!

I have a lot of thoughts that outrage others. "Why not let old people die?" is not one of them.

I would agree to it if only people with very low life quality at the end stages of a sickness die. But somebody in cancer therapy has a good chance to fully recover. Some otherwise healthy people may be especially vulnerable to the virus. To promote "let nature run it's course" doesn't sound like autistic logic to me. With the same reasoning one may oppose antibiotics.
And it doesn't sound like autistic logic, if only because we have old parents and because we will be old ourselves one day.
I'm going to disagree on the "autistic logic" front.
My son cannot visualize a future where
a) his mom & pop will not be there to tidy up after him
b) he will himself be old and needy. Or should I say, even more needy.
He probably accepts that both are indeed going to happen, but he doesn't want to waste his time contemplating either scenario.
When it happens, it happens ( <shrug> ). He'll worry about it then. Or maybe his sister will step in, and he will never have to trouble himself.

Quite honestly his world revolves around whether there are enough crisps in the pantry. And he doesn't see that world ever changing.

Maybe he's the lucky one?
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
continental004
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:16 am

OP here and I am sick of this shit. I want to go out again. I want to work again. I want to travel again. I want to LIVE again.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:38 am

continental004 wrote:
OP here and I am sick of this shit. I want to go out again. I want to work again. I want to travel again. I want to LIVE again.


The hallmark of our species is being adaptable. Probably a ways to go for you in that department, no?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
alfa164
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:41 am

continental004 wrote:
OP here and I am sick of this shit. I want to go out again. I want to work again. I want to travel again. I want to LIVE again.


We all are sick of it. We all want to work and travel and LIVE again.

But we aren't so selfish and self-centered that we want to kill grandma so we can do it....
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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BasilFawlty
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:42 am

Scorpio wrote:
You know what is wrong? People happily willing to sacrifice grandma's life for financial gain or the economy.
And the only treatments being postponed are non-urgent treatments, so don't use that pathetic excuse. This is about money, nothing more, nothing less: financial reasons are why you want to 'clean up the elderly'. Shame on you.

Non-urgent treatments can become serious issues in the future, quite a lot of doctors have been warning for this for a few weeks now. Young people might die during the next years because cancer wasn't detected in time for example, because everybody was busy saving 85 year olds.

And ofcourse this is about money, as is everything in this world. Health care, education, social security, everything is being funded with money. Maybe you're willing to accept massive cuts over the next years so you can enjoy grandma some more years, well I'm not willing to accept that. Keeping up the welfare is far more important than saving old relatives.

Sokes wrote:
But I believe it won't lead to growth and double digit interest rates.

We don't need growth and double digit interest rates, all we need is to maintain the current state of welfare.

Revelation wrote:
What's the alternative, go out and catch a virus you won't know you've caught and spread it to everyone you care about so everyone ends up in a struggle for their lives?

Everyone? Have you considered checking the facts? The majority of people who get hospitalized and/or die are old and/or have underlying conditions. Everybody else will just have mild symptoms or no symptons at all.

Revelation wrote:
Some will live but some will not, and now you can add the cost of medical bills and perhaps a funeral to your worries.

In civilized countries (please not that the US is definitely not one of them) healthcare is either free or covered by a government subsidized insurance policy mandatory for all citizens. In most civilized countries most people also have an insurance policy for when they die and not saddling up their relatives with the costs of a funeral. I just checked, when I die my relatives will receive around €15.000 to deal with all costs, which should be more than enough.

Revelation wrote:
Maybe you should use this time to study some philosophy and try to become a better human being?

No, thank you, I'm busy with living my life as much as possible as I normally would. ;)

Sokes wrote:
I believe the shutdown at the moment is required, and surely a few weeks and maybe even months more, to prepare for Corona cases. I live in India. It's a young society. Most poor won't be able to afford one month intensive care for a 85 year old.

You shoudn't want one month intensive care for a 85 year old. Besides, the whole world and India in particular is overpopulated. This whole Corona farce is great way to do something about that. It won't solve overpopulation, but every little bit helps.

Sokes wrote:
I believe isolating old people, let's say above 65 years, is the reasonable thing to do for time being.

I agree, such can be done with a curfew, a lockdown of the whole country is not the way to do it.

Sokes wrote:
Should all above 65 years old stay in social isolation for good?

Give them a choice: stay in social isolation for as long as required or ignore it but on your own risk.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
My son cannot visualize a future where
a) his mom & pop will not be there to tidy up after him
b) he will himself be old and needy. Or should I say, even more needy.
He probably accepts that both are indeed going to happen, but he doesn't want to waste his time contemplating either scenario.
When it happens, it happens ( <shrug> ). He'll worry about it then. Or maybe his sister will step in, and he will never have to trouble himself.

Just wondering: in which country do you live? Aren't there any facilities for people with autism like your son?
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:46 am

Sokes wrote:
What is TDS?

Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) is a term for criticism or negative reactions to United States President Donald Trump that are alleged to be irrational and have little regard towards Trump's actual positions or actions taken. The term has been used by Trump supporters to discredit criticism of his actions, as a way of reframing the discussion by suggesting that his opponents are incapable of accurately perceiving the world.

Essentially the pot calling the kettle black,
 
continental004
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:55 am

Aaron747 wrote:
continental004 wrote:
OP here and I am sick of this shit. I want to go out again. I want to work again. I want to travel again. I want to LIVE again.


The hallmark of our species is being adaptable. Probably a ways to go for you in that department, no?


If we are an adaptable species, then we ought to adapt to the FACT that the virus is here and here to STAY.

the strong will survive.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:06 am

continental004 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
continental004 wrote:
OP here and I am sick of this shit. I want to go out again. I want to work again. I want to travel again. I want to LIVE again.


The hallmark of our species is being adaptable. Probably a ways to go for you in that department, no?


If we are an adaptable species, then we ought to adapt to the FACT that the virus is here and here to STAY.

the strong will survive.


That attitude is unacceptable and unconscionable to the millions of medical professionals who dedicate their careers to looking after us. The problem is yours.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Tugger
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:16 am

continental004 wrote:
If we are an adaptable species, then we ought to adapt to the FACT that the virus is here and here to STAY.

the strong will survive.

They do survive by doing what we are doing. Why do you think we as a species have been so successful ever since we started devising ways for more to survive and live longer? The human species currently dominates earth.

The strong do survive by doing what we're doing.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
continental004
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:26 am

Aaron747 wrote:
continental004 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

The hallmark of our species is being adaptable. Probably a ways to go for you in that department, no?


If we are an adaptable species, then we ought to adapt to the FACT that the virus is here and here to STAY.

the strong will survive.


That attitude is unacceptable and unconscionable to the millions of medical professionals who dedicate their careers to looking after us. The problem is yours.


Those medical professionals CHOSE the field they work in.
 
MoonC
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:51 am

continental004 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
continental004 wrote:

If we are an adaptable species, then we ought to adapt to the FACT that the virus is here and here to STAY.

the strong will survive.


That attitude is unacceptable and unconscionable to the millions of medical professionals who dedicate their careers to looking after us. The problem is yours.


Those medical professionals CHOSE the field they work in.


Is this what your mom said when giving birth to you?
 
BN747
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:19 am

ChrisKen wrote:
Sokes wrote:
What is TDS?

Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) is a term for criticism or negative reactions to United States President Donald Trump that are alleged to be irrational and have little regard towards Trump's actual positions or actions taken. The term has been used by Trump supporters to discredit criticism of his actions, as a way of reframing the discussion by suggesting that his opponents are incapable of accurately perceiving the world.

Essentially the pot calling the kettle black,




Essentially wrong on every possible level.


One Party is pulling out the stops where ever they can to keep 'others' from voting or strongly deter them
One Party does not. (TIS #1 fan..himself even told the truth today...by saying if everyone could vote..the GOP would be out of business, he's right about that!)

One Party will eviscerate Healthcare and permit the medical profession to deny pre-existing conditions of any coverage.
One Party would never.

One Party would seize on a woman's right to decide her control of her body.
One Party wouldn't dare.

One Party is wholly beholden to Corporate America & Big Pharma.
One Party has many of it's members enslaved to the money trains of Corporate America & Big Pharma.

One Party if they had their druthers, America would a Theocracy.
One would never.

Those who use the both-ism terms such as the quoted statement above...both are equal if you simply don't give damn and have no plausible solution whatsoever.
If it's a complete nihilistic perspective which really helps no one which is the intent of the most selfish.

Imagine if no one had TDS and everyone had TIS, a world were the most outrageous Liars are the superstars! Bernie Madoff would be president and everyone like him in every government position. #MeToo would be labeled a terrorist organization there'd be no such thing as sexual assault against a woman.

White collar crime would be eliminated because protective regulations (like EPA) would be toast.
Church ministers and pastors would hold 1000s of gov't positions.

Free speech media, all gone except Fox News & OAN.
The ERA movement - gone.

No such thing as hate crimes anymore.

The world of TIS loyalist is a world perfectly suited for those with no virtue, no honor nor respect for traditions, no principles or guidelines for anything.

There is both-isms, they both the same...pot-kettle-black bullshit.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Sokes
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:25 am

BasilFawlty wrote:
Just wondering: in which country do you live? Aren't there any facilities for people with autism like your son?

Are there no high security facilities for biscuit thieves?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:31 am

BasilFawlty wrote:
Revelation wrote:
What's the alternative, go out and catch a virus you won't know you've caught and spread it to everyone you care about so everyone ends up in a struggle for their lives?

Everyone? Have you considered checking the facts? The majority of people who get hospitalized and/or die are old and/or have underlying conditions. Everybody else will just have mild symptoms or no symptons at all.

Have you considered checking the facts? I have a friend who died from COVID-19, and nope, wasn't old or with pre-existing conditions. Plenty of other cases of victims struggling for their lives for days, open social media and take it in. Once a machine starts breathing for you, pretty much anything can happen. And for no good reason other than ignorant people who think they know more than medical experts. Surely your prosperous society that gives you free health care can't handle everyone needing it all at once, none can.

The mild/no symptom thing is mostly wishful thinking. The only effective way to have no symptoms is to just not expose yourself to the virus.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Sokes
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:41 am

I go off topic. Skip if not interested.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Sokes wrote:
It's not that people with autism lack the capacity for empathy, they are simply unable to recognize emotional reactions in others.

I was a slow developer in that respect, laughing at others pain whilst at school, taking pride in showing no emotion at other times.
And now; I wish I could turn the clock back and say sorry to so many people.
And when it comes to emotional scenes in films or dramas I am quite astonished as to how fragile I have become.
It is as if I was autistic when younger, but now (finally) I have matured into a proper adult. Or maybe I'm still on that journey?


I also believe that the brain matures. I used to be terrible in executive functions (plan a task, initiate work, don't get distracted, stay on task even if task is unpleasant, do required work in right steps, quality control, don't forget something when going for shopping...). I am much better in it now. Still far from good in it.
My four year older brother used to hide behind my back when we watched horror movies. I did get little frightened, but apparently not sufficiently so for a ten year old. Now I have to fight tears with many movies, however that depends as much on the music as on the scene.
I still love sarcastic movies. I believe a mistake in regulation, as many people on the spectrum don't understand sarcasm at all.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I have a lot of thoughts that outrage others. "Why not let old people die?" is not one of them. ...

I'm going to disagree on the "autistic logic" front.
My son cannot visualize a future where
a) his mom & pop will not be there to tidy up after him
b) he will himself be old and needy. Or should I say, even more needy.
He probably accepts that both are indeed going to happen, but he doesn't want to waste his time contemplating either scenario.
When it happens, it happens ( <shrug> ). He'll worry about it then. Or maybe his sister will step in, and he will never have to trouble himself.

Quite honestly his world revolves around whether there are enough crisps in the pantry. And he doesn't see that world ever changing.

Maybe he's the lucky one?

You are probably right. The attachment Sheldon Cooper shows to friends and family is nowhere near the attachment I feel for the people I love.
I was never diagnosed. I came to know about being on the spectrum when a friend mentioned that Sheldon Cooper's behavior reminds him of me. But even though nobody ever called me (or my son) autistic, only the characteristics of autism explain why I always felt different. It's actually rather widespread, but only few who are on the spectrum are aware of it. One time in "Big Bang Theory" Leonard gets a sweater as present. The material itches him terrible. He is hypersensitive to touch. Hypersensitivity is typical in the autism spectrum. I can't bear noisy fans. My son can't bear certain smells. Of course Leonard isn't autistic. But is his mother normal?

By the way: That your son takes it for granted that you tidy up after him may not be abusive. He may not care the mess. That again is a mistake in regulation, as many on the spectrum, such as Sheldon, can be particular. That your son can't force himself to do something he has no intrinsic motivation for is best explained with low executive function. If I'm into something I can hyperfocus for hours together. I struggle to force myself to a three minutes domestic task.

"Hyperfocus is the experience of deep and intense concentration in some people with ADHD. ADHD is not necessarily a deficit of attention, but rather a problem with regulating one’s attention span to desired tasks. So, while mundane tasks may be difficult to focus on, others may be completely absorbing. An individual with ADHD who may not be able to complete homework assignments or work projects may instead be able to focus for hours on video games, sports, or reading.

People with ADHD may immerse themselves so completely in an activity that they want to do or enjoy doing to the point that they become oblivious to everything around them. This concentration can be so intense that an individual loses track of time, other chores, or the surrounding environment. While this level of intensity can be channeled into difficult tasks, such as work or homework, the downside is that ADHD individuals can become immersed in unproductive activities while ignoring pressing responsibilities."
https://www.healthline.com/health/adhd/ ... perfocus#1

You know what's funny: My son has not even reached adolescence, but he only wants to watch Big Bang Theory. That's very much against the wishes of my wife, who is concerned that the sexual jokes in it may lead my son into temptation once he reaches adolescence.

Pay attention to your wife. People on the spectrum have a high risk of divorce and a low probability to find a new partner again.
Not that I follow this advise myself. I'm telling you as a well wishing hypocrite.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:14 am

Revelation wrote:
The mild/no symptom thing is mostly wishful thinking. The only effective way to have no symptoms is to just not expose yourself to the virus.

Germany:
46.300 recovered, 2349 deaths
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... y/germany/

2349 / (46.300 + 2349)= 0,048

However, unless one gets serious symptoms, why to go to the doctor? That's the big unknown.
Also that statistic doesn't tell about long term damage to lungs of 40 years old.

In India the statistic shows like 20-30% deaths. It means they simply can't test.
What are doctors to do in such a situation if somebody presents with cough? Put him in isolation with another ten people with cough who also can't be tested?
For that reason alone social isolation is a must for time being. Pretty much all countries don't have sufficient facilities to test yet.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
JJJ
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:22 am

Revelation wrote:
BasilFawlty wrote:
Revelation wrote:
What's the alternative, go out and catch a virus you won't know you've caught and spread it to everyone you care about so everyone ends up in a struggle for their lives?

Everyone? Have you considered checking the facts? The majority of people who get hospitalized and/or die are old and/or have underlying conditions. Everybody else will just have mild symptoms or no symptons at all.

Have you considered checking the facts? I have a friend who died from COVID-19, and nope, wasn't old or with pre-existing conditions. Plenty of other cases of victims struggling for their lives for days, open social media and take it in. Once a machine starts breathing for you, pretty much anything can happen. And for no good reason other than ignorant people who think they know more than medical experts. Surely your prosperous society that gives you free health care can't handle everyone needing it all at once, none can.


And though surviving is very much desirable, a lot of otherwise healthy people who survive COVID will be doing so at the expense of permanent lung damage.

Most of the attention obviously goes to dead people, but the long term consequences are there.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:18 pm

Sokes wrote:
I go off topic...
Meh, not necessarily. Those on the autistic spectrum are prime candidates for being allowed to perish from Covid-19 in order that society in general can get back to normal, without all the dead-weights. :roll:
I was never diagnosed.
You, and anything up to a billion others on this planet.
Plus there is new research suggesting it is more prevalent in females than previously thought; it's just they are better at appearing "normal".

"Hyperfocus is the experience of deep and intense concentration in some people with ADHD. ADHD is not necessarily a deficit of attention, but rather a problem with regulating one’s attention span to desired tasks. So, while mundane tasks may be difficult to focus on, others may be completely absorbing. An individual with ADHD who may not be able to complete homework assignments or work projects may instead be able to focus for hours on video games, sports, or reading.
Yeah, tell me about it. But again, focus on a single task is a predominantly male trait anyway. Or rather, an inability to multi-task.

My son has not even reached adolescence, but he only wants to watch Big Bang Theory. That's very much against the wishes of my wife, who is concerned that the sexual jokes in it may lead my son into temptation once he reaches adolescence.
Tell her this; I've got three kids and they all watched BBT with us (one of the few programs they would make an effort for). So far the score is
One daughter who thinks sex is "dirty", although every now and then she forces herself to drive around to the BF and put out for him.
One autistic son who will gladly tell his mother when & where he last pleasured himself (yes, that was TMI for us when we got it the first time - I nearly crashed the car for laughing). By law of averages, eventually a smart young lady will take a chance on him (he is surprisingly good looking) but until then he'll stick with his video games.
And one ex-teenage nymphomaniac daughter who used to receive "gifts" from her internet fan club. Her mother honestly thought they were clothes, but I recognised the mail-order address. I never knew those things came in so many colors, and sizes. :o
One morning I had to tidy up the family bathroom after she had taken a shower before going to work. I picked up several damp towels, and found three of the damn things casually hidden underneath, still warm. Three? :cry2:
(She's now married, with a real solid guy, and got herself a half-decent career. Very proud of her.)

I don't how much of any of the above can be attributed to Big Bang Theory, but whatever precautions you take, stuff still happens.

[And I'm absolutely certain I've said too much already - another autistic trait perhaps? It's been great exchanging thoughts with you, but we should probably leave it there.] :wave:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:42 pm

Revelation wrote:
Have you considered checking the facts?

I'm a sucker for two reference sources.
1) Wikipedia (for all it's faults)
2) Aunty Beeb - the BBC
I like them for being free to all, minimal/no cookies, no sign-up, and no viewing restrictions. (unless you're in China :duck: )

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274

BBC ( referencing England only) wrote:
Most deaths have been among the elderly.
Figures released by NHS England show more than half of deaths have been among people aged over 80.

{I cannot copy the bar chart itself, so here are the figures - Sheikhy}
Age 0-19 ; 5 deaths
Age 20-39 ; 47
Age 40-59 ; 465
Age 60-79 ; 2576
Age 80+ ; 3390
Source NHS England, updated 8th April 14:00 BST

Note; The UK's overall death figure... is almost entirely made up from those people who died in hospital and tested positive for coronavirus.
For the most part it does not include deaths in the community, for example in care homes, or people who have died in their own homes.
This means that the true death toll will be higher.


Age Over 80 = 3390/6483 = 59.6%

Age Over 60 = (2576 + 3390)/6483 = 92.0% :o
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:50 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Age Over 80 = 3390/6483 = 59.6%

Age Over 60 = (2576 + 3390)/6483 = 92.0% :o

It doesn't negate what I'm saying, 8% are under age 60. The only way to avoid the risk is to not catch the virus. The only way to avoid spreading the disease at a rate that will swamp our medical systems is to self isolate.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:34 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
You, and anything up to a billion others on this planet.


At that point, it is no longer a condition but simply a definable characteristic of humanity. This may very well be the case. But I am reticent to look at things that way as it dilutes -severely- the issues faced by those at the more extreme ends.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

Plus there is new research suggesting it is more prevalent in females than previously thought; it's just they are better at appearing "normal".


This would not be astonishing. I have a child who is definitively on the spectrum. She is both of these things.

However in her case, there are a lot of comorbidities, so getting a clear picture of this did not occur until she was substantially beyond the typically recognized onset timeline. At the time we received a more proper definition of the condition(s) involved, I did have to wonder if there were issues that would have been detected earlier had she been a boy. Boys are placed on the spectrum at a rate close to four times what girls are, however there is no known divergence of circumstances to account for this.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
Sokes
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:47 pm

BN747 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Yep, there is indeed a distinct parallel universe where these toxic characteristics thrive...we see displays of it daily as they praise, defend and enable the worst leader a free society could ever have.

In which way is Trump worse than George Bush Junior?
After Syria and Libya, I would have voted for Trump.

This may be all fun and games, a joke to you. But all this that has happened..happened in real life, to real people...just like now what is happening to real people and this real clown who has some insane people that he is a competent president (trump). Considering trump's display of experience to date, my ailing out of shape semi illiterate ex-neighbor could 'president' in the exact same manner..just she lied far less.

So I leave you to your own devices to 'catch up' since you were not there to see it for yourself.

BN747

O.k., I did my homework.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/02/poli ... _expansion

If Iran's mullahs now allow Trump his own TV channel with reality shows and yearly beauty contests we can finally have peace on earth.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
alfa164
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:07 pm

Sokes wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
In which way is Trump worse than George Bush Junior? After Syria and Libya, I would have voted for Trump.

This may be all fun and games, a joke to you. But all this that has happened..happened in real life, to real people...just like now what is happening to real people and this real clown who has some insane people that he is a competent president (trump). Considering trump's display of experience to date, my ailing out of shape semi illiterate ex-neighbor could 'president' in the exact same manner..just she lied far less. So I leave you to your own devices to 'catch up' since you were not there to see it for yourself.

O.k., I did my homework.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/02/poli ... _expansion
If Iran's mullahs now allow Trump his own TV channel with reality shows and yearly beauty contests we can finally have peace on earth.


...but only if the let him walk into the contestants' dressing rooms while they are undressed...

;)
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
StarAC17
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:44 pm

continental004 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
continental004 wrote:
OP here and I am sick of this shit. I want to go out again. I want to work again. I want to travel again. I want to LIVE again.


The hallmark of our species is being adaptable. Probably a ways to go for you in that department, no?


If we are an adaptable species, then we ought to adapt to the FACT that the virus is here and here to STAY.

the strong will survive.


We have eradicated and contained many viruses and diseases before. Smallpox gone, Polio largely gone, Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Chickenpox largely gone because of treatments and vaccines. These viruses might still exist in some places but largely they are not issues that many deal with.

Tooth decay largely gone in the developed world because we put fluoride in water

We did that and nature did not.

alfa164 wrote:
continental004 wrote:
OP here and I am sick of this shit. I want to go out again. I want to work again. I want to travel again. I want to LIVE again.


We all are sick of it. We all want to work and travel and LIVE again.

But we aren't so selfish and self-centered that we want to kill grandma so we can do it....


I hear both of you. For someone with anxiety issues (my mother wants me to take anti-depressants to deal with social isolation). The cure I know is being able to be in a community. I spend a lot of time at a yoga studio teaching an practicing which alleviates 99% of the anxiety issues and gives me a workout at the same time. My mental health issues will bubble up over time and I am not alone in this and something governments will have to deal with, not only are this issues coming back but the coping mechanisms are taken away.
I still am getting paid but if I didn't have a job or had been laid off then this would be worse.

I a understand the need for social distancing because of those with pre-existing conditions whom might not survive getting Covid-19. Ironically I work at a bank and some seniors don't give a hoot about staying inside.

However we cannot do this indefinitely and excluding the economy which is man made to begin with. We have the choice to freeze society and stop everything for a month if we choose to. This probably should have been the action taken, close all non-essential businesses, close the stock market and credit markets and start up society at a certain amount of time. All of this is man made

The Economy aside we can't social distance forever as the mental health issues will add up, suicides will increase, people will forget how to socialize which is one of our needs even if you are an introvert is interacting with other people and I'm sorry Zoom calls don't cut it. I need that physical contact and presence of other people, this actually boosts immune systems and being couped up inside weakens the immune system.

I see the need for this in the short term but this can't go past the end of May realistically. In Canada we have a short summer and people are going to want to be outside and doing those outdoor activities. Perhaps big festivals and sports aren't happening (if they are a reduced attendance) but letting people chill in the park or on a patio needs to happen, us humans need this.

Also I growing suspect of the Canadian government in recent days I think their goal along with some other governments is to prolong social distancing to eliminate this virus entirely and not so call flatten the curve to ensure that the health care system doesn't get overrun. If that is your goal then just say it, I think that is what they are doing in New Zealand, they want it gone.

Being optimistic I think as the summer comes in late May or early June that there is some seasonality to this.

Covid-19 seems to thrive in environments that have temperatures around 10-15 degrees C (50-60 degrees F). Wuhan, Western Europe, the pacific northwest, The US northeast, Quebec, and Ontario (the latter 3 in March and April, not in January and February). There have been no real sustained outbreaks in tropical and humid climates as droplets spread poorly in moist air and well in dry air. We can use the summer to be ready with PPE, ventilators and testing infrastructure when we likely will get a spike in the fall so we are ready for it.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
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scbriml
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:53 am

StarAC17 wrote:
We have eradicated and contained many viruses and diseases before. Smallpox gone, Polio largely gone, Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Chickenpox largely gone because of treatments and vaccines. These viruses might still exist in some places but largely they are not issues that many deal with.


Some are making a comeback thanks to the efforts of the dimwitted antivaxers.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
GDB
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:07 pm

scbriml wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
We have eradicated and contained many viruses and diseases before. Smallpox gone, Polio largely gone, Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Chickenpox largely gone because of treatments and vaccines. These viruses might still exist in some places but largely they are not issues that many deal with.


Some are making a comeback thanks to the efforts of the dimwitted antivaxers.


Who just happen to also be many of those either too stupid or just plain selfish to observe restrictions with this pandemic, massive Venn Diagram coverage across the Trump 'base' too.
Nasty and idiotic basically, watch 'em scream for medical assistance should they be infected however.
 
Sokes
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:47 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
Also I growing suspect of the Canadian government in recent days I think their goal along with some other governments is to prolong social distancing to eliminate this virus entirely and not so call flatten the curve to ensure that the health care system doesn't get overrun. If that is your goal then just say it, I think that is what they are doing in New Zealand, they want it gone.

Interesting that yoga helps with social anxiety. I find meditation boring, I like Metallica. But then humans are not the same. I suppose for hyperactive people fast computer games give peace of mind. Mind to expand or do you have a link concerning yoga and social anxiety?

I don't understand when people speak about flattening the curve and question if we already crossed the maximum.
Worldwide less than 2 mio confirmed cases yet. As testing is still in ramp up let's assume 20 mio have or had it already.
With a world population of 7,8 billion people or so that is 0,26%. 99,7% or so still to come. So either we get rid of the virus by social isolation (Wuhan) or we have to find a vaccine.

Since four weeks I sit at home. In India no trains or buses run, all offices are closed. Only supermarkets and pharmacies are open. In Goa one can still drive around with scooter/ car. In neighboring Karnataka police will take away the vehicle till the crises is over. Moreover one may or may not get hammering.
Two weeks back I went to town for shopping without face mask. The scooter before me was allowed to pass. I was sent back. "Where is your face mask?"
Good. That's how it's done.

The economy is there to serve us. We are not there to serve the economy. People confuse means and end.

What drama do governments make to pay salaries for a few months lock down?
The US has 130 million full time employees. Let's cap government help at 80% of salary or 3000 $/ month, whatever is higher. That's at the most 400 billion $/ month.
For half year that is 2,4 trillion $.
M2 as of 2020 is around 16 trillion $.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2
So to pay half year salaries by printing money would increase M2 by 15%.
Since 2006 the US Fed doesn't publish M3. Probably people would have asked questions why money growth for gambling went unchecked. At any rate on a M3 basis printing money to finance salaries would be even less dramatic.

Next time banks come again with gambling losses the politicians will find a few trillion. I assume those with a lot of savings will rather agree to an increase in money supply to pay salaries in these exceptional times than to save the super rich from gambling losses, which is probably going to become a rule anyway.
Paying salaries is also the best method to avoid arbitrary decisions.
As long as we have food, heating,water, electricity and medical care we will be fine.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:00 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
If Iran's mullahs now allow Trump his own TV channel with reality shows and yearly beauty contests we can finally have peace on earth.


...but only if the let him walk into the contestants' dressing rooms while they are undressed...

;)

It goes without saying.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:00 pm

Sokes wrote:
The US has 130 million full time employees. Let's cap government help at 80% of salary or 3000 $/ month, whatever is higher.

Mistake. It has to be "whatever is lower".
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
StarAC17
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:56 pm

Sokes wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
Also I growing suspect of the Canadian government in recent days I think their goal along with some other governments is to prolong social distancing to eliminate this virus entirely and not so call flatten the curve to ensure that the health care system doesn't get overrun. If that is your goal then just say it, I think that is what they are doing in New Zealand, they want it gone.

Interesting that yoga helps with social anxiety. I find meditation boring, I like Metallica. But then humans are not the same. I suppose for hyperactive people fast computer games give peace of mind. Mind to expand or do you have a link concerning yoga and social anxiety?

I don't understand when people speak about flattening the curve and question if we already crossed the maximum.
Worldwide less than 2 mio confirmed cases yet. As testing is still in ramp up let's assume 20 mio have or had it already.
With a world population of 7,8 billion people or so that is 0,26%. 99,7% or so still to come. So either we get rid of the virus by social isolation (Wuhan) or we have to find a vaccine.

Since four weeks I sit at home. In India no trains or buses run, all offices are closed. Only supermarkets and pharmacies are open. In Goa one can still drive around with scooter/ car. In neighboring Karnataka police will take away the vehicle till the crises is over. Moreover one may or may not get hammering.
Two weeks back I went to town for shopping without face mask. The scooter before me was allowed to pass. I was sent back. "Where is your face mask?"
Good. That's how it's done.

The economy is there to serve us. We are not there to serve the economy. People confuse means and end.

What drama do governments make to pay salaries for a few months lock down?
The US has 130 million full time employees. Let's cap government help at 80% of salary or 3000 $/ month, whatever is higher. That's at the most 400 billion $/ month.
For half year that is 2,4 trillion $.
M2 as of 2020 is around 16 trillion $.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2
So to pay half year salaries by printing money would increase M2 by 15%.
Since 2006 the US Fed doesn't publish M3. Probably people would have asked questions why money growth for gambling went unchecked. At any rate on a M3 basis printing money to finance salaries would be even less dramatic.

Next time banks come again with gambling losses the politicians will find a few trillion. I assume those with a lot of savings will rather agree to an increase in money supply to pay salaries in these exceptional times than to save the super rich from gambling losses, which is probably going to become a rule anyway.
Paying salaries is also the best method to avoid arbitrary decisions.
As long as we have food, heating,water, electricity and medical care we will be fine.


Regarding flattening the curve the plan is to spread the infections over a longer period of time thus not overloading the capacity health care system, thus saving more lives. I personally prefer the idea of forced quarantine of those exposed and contact tracing but if you think those is the west are going to go for that, it isn't happening in this pandemic at least. This involves tracking of movements that can easily abused by governments.

Many yoga studios are also social communities and in North America yoga has been transformed into a fitness culture and basically all physical activities reduce stress and anxiety. The fitness an Instagram culture of yoga probably has your ancestors who created Yoga rolling in their graves.
My studio has taken the yoga online and on Zoom for the time being.

GDB wrote:
scbriml wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
We have eradicated and contained many viruses and diseases before. Smallpox gone, Polio largely gone, Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Chickenpox largely gone because of treatments and vaccines. These viruses might still exist in some places but largely they are not issues that many deal with.


Some are making a comeback thanks to the efforts of the dimwitted antivaxers.


Who just happen to also be many of those either too stupid or just plain selfish to observe restrictions with this pandemic, massive Venn Diagram coverage across the Trump 'base' too.
Nasty and idiotic basically, watch 'em scream for medical assistance should they be infected however.


While I agree it might be conservatives not social distancing in an effort to own the libs (their words, not mine).

Anti-Vaxxers tend to be left wing in political leanings and tend to use essential oils, have a vegetarian and vegan diet, and are very questioning of western medicine. Now questioning some aspects of Western Medicine is valid. I do think many of them who are fit and healthy think that their immune systems are able to save them from essentially anything. You see this with celebrities Jenny McCarthy, Gwenyth Paltrow, Bill Maher to an extent, Steve Jobs rejected traditional cancer treatment in favour of some herbal treatment (that didn't work too well). In this pandemic every anti-vaxxer I know is following social distancing rules.

They think they're above human ailments and their justifications are very much like climate deniers. Being a member of a yoga community I know plenty of them and facts simply don't work and a lot of it is arrogance, believing its poison, believing is conspiracies such as this is Bill Gates's plan to take over the world through vaccines and 5G networks, and also the Dunning-Kruger effect. I tend to mind my own business because as a good friend tells me it is very hard to argue with the willfully ignorant If they ask me my opinion on it then I will give it but won't actively start an argument.

Some think that the flu shot is useless and that is a little more understandable because some years it does not work well as they get the predicted strains wrong and getting it every year gives more immunity. MMR, Hepatitis A and B, chicken pox do work.

While having a healthy diet, getting enough sleep, being active are all good things is only improves your body's ability to fight an infection, not contracting it.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
rfields5421
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:25 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
Anti-Vaxxers tend to be left wing in political leanings and tend to use essential oils, have a vegetarian and vegan diet, and are very questioning of western medicine...…

They think they're above human ailments and their justifications are very much like climate deniers........
..
facts simply don't work and a lot of it is arrogance, believing its poison,


A good description, except for one point. In Texas they tend to be the strongest modern conservative Republicans. Strongly for home schooling, or charter schools, well for the great unwashed - their kids tend to go to exclusive private schools where vaccination is looked upon as child abuse.

These are professionals with six figure incomes, two earners, a 300k house, three or four vehicles, busy all the time.

And it filters down. My own daughter, never on that income level, but caught up with her extremely conservative first husband, bought into that BS.

Until the marriage broke up, she had to put some of the kids into public school.

One day oldest grandson came home from middle school in Plano, TX with fever and chills. It was flu. Ended up 13 of us caught flu.

And the school system responded 'properly'. They wanted him in school if he could walk. Because if he missed too many days, he could not pass. At one time they had 200 kids in a school population of over 900 walking around with fever, coughing, vomiting, etc. 'Oh we can't let the kids miss much school.'

My daughter became a firm believer in vaccines after that. All the kids get flu shots yearly.

Oldest granddaughter became an EMT in high school. Did clinicals in nursing homes, ERs, on Plano FD ambulances. She quickly became a firm believer in vaccines.

I remember a kid in my home town that had polio. A few years older than me. I remember lining up at school for shots, and later the sugar cubes. Also measles, mumps and such. Dad was 39 when he got mumps from us. It was he!! according to him.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
continental004
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Posts: 435
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:53 am

We need to realize that humans are sometimes powerless against nature and we cannot always win. If we have to sacrifice some lives to get back to normal, so be it.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:03 am

continental004 wrote:
We need to realize that humans are sometimes powerless against nature and we cannot always win. If we have to sacrifice some lives to get back to normal, so be it.


Will you be giving up your electricity and shelter then? Seriously, healthcare professionals simply cannot abide your attitude or viewpoint, nor would they be expected to by society. And your tune would likely change if the lives in the crosshairs are your blood.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2504
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:16 am

As expected, most have come to realize that we simply cannot flush our society down the drain to fight for a fraction of a percent. Protect those most vulnerable and the rest of us need to get on with life.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:19 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Protect those most vulnerable and the rest of us need to get on with life.


That’s exactly what serology testing and contact tracing aim to do - we just don’t have ducks in a row quite yet.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2504
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:29 am

Aaron747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Protect those most vulnerable and the rest of us need to get on with life.


That’s exactly what serology testing and contact tracing aim to do - we just don’t have ducks in a row quite yet.


You'll have a better chance of wishing upon a star for the virus to go away than thinking Trump and the courts will force us to let the government track our whereabouts.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:37 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Protect those most vulnerable and the rest of us need to get on with life.


That’s exactly what serology testing and contact tracing aim to do - we just don’t have ducks in a row quite yet.


You'll have a better chance of wishing upon a star for the virus to go away than thinking Trump and the courts will force us to let the government track our whereabouts.


Technological tracking is not the only way to do contact tracing. Read up on things rather than giving in to ignorance.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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seb146
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Re: Why are we going so hard against nature fighting Covid-19 like we are doing?

Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:19 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
continental004 wrote:
We need to realize that humans are sometimes powerless against nature and we cannot always win. If we have to sacrifice some lives to get back to normal, so be it.


Will you be giving up your electricity and shelter then? Seriously, healthcare professionals simply cannot abide your attitude or viewpoint, nor would they be expected to by society. And your tune would likely change if the lives in the crosshairs are your blood.


The lieutenant governor of Texas seems to share the "let nature take it's course" way of doing things

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/texas-da ... p8_hlXEh34

of course he wants to let nature take it's course to strengthen the economy, but still, he is on nature's side. Party of life!
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!

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