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fr8mech
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Masks and Gloves

Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:31 pm

Rumor has it that will be asked, encouraged, told...whatever...to wear masks while in public, or at least in situations where the proper social distancing interval is difficult to maintain.

Now, my position on gloves, as I mentioned in another thread, is unless you know how to use the gloves, you’re probably causing more harm (to yourself) than good. Bottomline, if you’re wearing the same pair all the time, not only do you look like a moron, but you’re likely transmitting all sorts of microbes between the surfaces you touch...including your face. The only reason to wear gloves (IMHO), if you’re not a healthcare worker, is as a reminder to keep your booger-picker off your face. Just wash your damn hands the correct way...often.

Masks. At this point, I believe I’m ambivalent on the use of masks. A couple of years ago, when I was hospitalized with chemotherapy induced neutropenia, I was told to wear mask whenever I left the room. Visitors to my room were not asked to wear a mask, and I wasn’t asked to wear one when I had visitors. But, as I think this through, I’m having a hard time with it. Wouldn’t a mask, not designed for medical use, e.g. N95, actually trap microbes and keep them near your mouth/nose/eyes for a longer period of time? I can see a mask being marginally effective in keeping your funk from getting out; at what point do they become a hazard to those around you?

Another part of it is, like with the gloves, training. How many of us have been trained in the proper fit and wearing of a mask? I have, both as an EMT and in my employment in aircraft maintenance.

I’ll also submit, like the gloves, masks could provide the needed reminder to keep your hands away from your face. Maybe that’s enough, I don’t know.

Any thoughts on the use of masks and improvised “masks”?
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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casinterest
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Re: Masks and Gloves

Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:46 pm

The idea is to reduce the size of your bubble of influence, not others. However if we all wind up wearing masks and gloves, we will slow the transmission potentially, but on gloves, I feel like washing is more effective.

The mask may help keep you from touching your own face though.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Masks and Gloves

Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:57 pm

Mask and gloves are pointless when 90% of the public don't correctly use them.
Far to many clueless idiots proudly prancing around in them at the moment, only to then grab the mask to remove it for a ciggy, to sneeze, to wipe their streaming noses with their gloved hands or wiping their faces and then proceed to smear it all over the products on the shelves and any other surfaces to hand (vice-versa).

(These) People need to be taught/reminded of BASIC hygiene techniques, which is all that is needed to "kill" any covid-19 lurking about and reduce the chances of you infecting yourself.


Cloth masks have been proven to be utterly pointless for front-line staff when used in place of proper surgical masks. That says all you need to know about improvised masks....including the crocheted/knitted woollen one I saw being worn today.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Masks and Gloves

Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:07 pm

Basically I can only say that I agree with you overall. Like most things, people do not take the time to actually understand how useful something is or how to use it correctly.

Regarding gloves, from what I have read, it appears regular use of hand sanitizer is at least as good, and better as it kills the germs on your hands, including the ones you create And gloves give people false sense of security and they then spread more germs by misusing or touching something, or coughing or touching their face. So hand sanitizer it is.

As to face masks, well my wife and daughter just made some for the family... so I wear one. A mask protects other people, not the wearer. But in today's environment where people may be asymptomatic it is a good thing to do. However I did have to correct my family (and others) that "more layers" of the used shirts they are made of are not really going to stop a virus that is 0.125 micron in size. It can however slow down the particles you blow out when you breath and worse when you cough. And viruses are more normally carried on such "aerosols". The weave of t-shirt fabric is so porous that they only stop 20%-60% of particulates in the air. Even the N95 only stops 95% (down to 0.3 micron) of particles.

So go for it, please use a homemade mask, it will at least slow/reduce the particles you spew when you breather and hack.

Tugg
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Masks and Gloves

Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:12 pm

I ended up buying a box of meal prep gloves (not the plastic ones at Subway, but rather ones that look more like medical) for whenever I go grocery shopping. I went to Restaurant Depot, they asked me to wear gloves, so I decided to buy a box and do the same.

As for masks...not too concerned. While a cloth mask is better than no mask, I don't really see much risk to walking around unless you enter a crowded area. Masks are of no use if people touch their faces or even remove them to speak (a lady ordering at Starbucks kept removing her mask to speak and putting it on).

I'd feel much more confident, though, if I found hand sanitizer. I'd keep a travel size bottle in my car for whenever I step out and a big pump in the garage for whenever I'm about to enter the house. It's way better than waiting to get home to wash my hands and potentially still keeping the car and items I bring contaminated.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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ER757
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Re: Masks and Gloves

Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:13 pm

You are correct about gloves - unless you know proper technique they will do you no good. I only use one if I am at the grocery store and need to open a refrigerator or freezer case. I do know the proper method for removal and do so asap when there is a disposal bin close. I of course wash my hands as immediately as possible afterwards too.
As for masks, lots of home-made ones are useless as you mention - with the shortages of "real" ones, I wonder where people are obtaining them. I still see a number of people wearing them
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Masks and Gloves

Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:50 pm

It’s like living in a non-stop chem warfare exercise, for real.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Masks and Gloves

Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:58 pm

Washington state is now predicted to be 4 day past maximum hospital bed usage, and deaths (graph says today, but maybe earlier). This was done despite a desperate shortage of masks and testing. The state now recommends masks if you may be closer than 6 feet to other people. If I should have one I will use it on my once a week grocery shop (last week at 7am -almost no one in the store , if I don't have a mask I will go at 6:30am). So far as I know defense workers (most going to work), grocery clerks, and medical workers seem to be doing OK. Monitor for symptoms, isolate at 6+feet, self-quarantine if at all in doubt. It works.

https://covid19.healthdata.org/projections
click on United States of America for menu of all states
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Masks and Gloves

Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:50 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://covid19.healthdata.org/projections
click on United States of America for menu of all states

I'm trying to find the graph where the slopes indicate just how the curve is behaving. The lower the slope, the more time it takes for cases to double. It serves as a comparison between nations and even states, but I have not been able to find it (except on news articles).
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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ER757
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Re: Masks and Gloves

Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:23 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Washington state is now predicted to be 4 day past maximum hospital bed usage, and deaths (graph says today, but maybe earlier). This was done despite a desperate shortage of masks and testing. The state now recommends masks if you may be closer than 6 feet to other people. If I should have one I will use it on my once a week grocery shop (last week at 7am -almost no one in the store , if I don't have a mask I will go at 6:30am). So far as I know defense workers (most going to work), grocery clerks, and medical workers seem to be doing OK. Monitor for symptoms, isolate at 6+feet, self-quarantine if at all in doubt. It works.

https://covid19.healthdata.org/projections
click on United States of America for menu of all states

Must be new info - saw a report on the news the other day saying Washington's peak was expected to be April 11th. Good news if we've beat that by almost a week. Just hope people don't get complacent and realize we need to continue what we've been doing for the past couple weeks until at least beginning of May (maybe longer). I will say that most everyone around my area is observing the 6 foot rule and lots of folks staying home too
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Masks and Gloves

Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:24 pm

ER757 wrote:
You are correct about gloves - unless you know proper technique they will do you no good. I only use one if I am at the grocery store and need to open a refrigerator or freezer case. I do know the proper method for removal and do so asap when there is a disposal bin close. I of course wash my hands as immediately as possible afterwards too.


I don’t even bother then. Years as an EMT & aircraft mechanic have taught me not to touch my face, and other, more delicate, parts of my body without first washing my hands.

When I get to my car, after I’ve been “exposed”, I will use some hand sanitizer.

I’m not quite sold on the mask.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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kalvado
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Re: Masks and Gloves

Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:26 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://covid19.healthdata.org/projections
click on United States of America for menu of all states

I'm trying to find the graph where the slopes indicate just how the curve is behaving. The lower the slope, the more time it takes for cases to double. It serves as a comparison between nations and even states, but I have not been able to find it (except on news articles).

https://valis.pub/ is a good one
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Masks and Gloves

Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:22 am

kalvado wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://covid19.healthdata.org/projections
click on United States of America for menu of all states

I'm trying to find the graph where the slopes indicate just how the curve is behaving. The lower the slope, the more time it takes for cases to double. It serves as a comparison between nations and even states, but I have not been able to find it (except on news articles).

https://valis.pub/ is a good one


Nice one, like the input variables and ability to switch between log and linear.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Aesma
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Re: Masks and Gloves

Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:43 am

I think we will all be wearing masks into next year.

They might not be very effective, but anything helps, and that will be the price to go back to "somewhat normal".

People will feel safer regardless of effectiveness, and that's needed.

Gloves, I don't think so.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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DL717
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Re: Masks and Gloves

Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:44 am

fr8mech wrote:
Rumor has it that will be asked, encouraged, told...whatever...to wear masks while in public, or at least in situations where the proper social distancing interval is difficult to maintain.

Now, my position on gloves, as I mentioned in another thread, is unless you know how to use the gloves, you’re probably causing more harm (to yourself) than good. Bottomline, if you’re wearing the same pair all the time, not only do you look like a moron, but you’re likely transmitting all sorts of microbes between the surfaces you touch...including your face. The only reason to wear gloves (IMHO), if you’re not a healthcare worker, is as a reminder to keep your booger-picker off your face. Just wash your damn hands the correct way...often.

Masks. At this point, I believe I’m ambivalent on the use of masks. A couple of years ago, when I was hospitalized with chemotherapy induced neutropenia, I was told to wear mask whenever I left the room. Visitors to my room were not asked to wear a mask, and I wasn’t asked to wear one when I had visitors. But, as I think this through, I’m having a hard time with it. Wouldn’t a mask, not designed for medical use, e.g. N95, actually trap microbes and keep them near your mouth/nose/eyes for a longer period of time? I can see a mask being marginally effective in keeping your funk from getting out; at what point do they become a hazard to those around you?

Another part of it is, like with the gloves, training. How many of us have been trained in the proper fit and wearing of a mask? I have, both as an EMT and in my employment in aircraft maintenance.

I’ll also submit, like the gloves, masks could provide the needed reminder to keep your hands away from your face. Maybe that’s enough, I don’t know.

Any thoughts on the use of masks and improvised “masks”?


I think in both cases the biggest problem is that people don’t know how to use them properly. Builds in a false sense of security. Touch your mask with unclean hands, useless. Keeps people from sneezing on you, but that’s about it. If you don’t wash before putting the gloves on, you might as well go glove free. People will reuse them which is another problem. There aren’t enough of them to be had. Both will be useless within a few days. Washable? Great. Did you wash it every-time you you used it... see the point.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
BN747
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Re: Masks and Gloves

Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:57 am

Disposed gloves are strewn everywhere around here...proving people are just slobs.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4421
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Masks and Gloves

Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:42 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Washington state is now predicted to be 4 day past maximum hospital bed usage, and deaths (graph says today, but maybe earlier). This was done despite a desperate shortage of masks and testing. The state now recommends masks if you may be closer than 6 feet to other people. If I should have one I will use it on my once a week grocery shop (last week at 7am -almost no one in the store , if I don't have a mask I will go at 6:30am). So far as I know defense workers (most going to work), grocery clerks, and medical workers seem to be doing OK. Monitor for symptoms, isolate at 6+feet, self-quarantine if at all in doubt. It works.

https://covid19.healthdata.org/projections
click on United States of America for menu of all states


Update for Tuesday April 7th. Washington State projections. Maximum hospital usage, April 2, and maximum deaths, 11 days ago. This projection assumes full social distancing through the end of May.

ps - to make all this work the federal government should fund unemployment insurance, medical care, and sick leave and pensions. These things are an undue burden on industry and employers. Well designed income and corporate taxes as will as minimal employment taxes (social security and unemployment). During national emergencies all employment taxes should be paid by the feds. Effective federal taxes need to be a a few to several points higher as a percent of GNP. Good government costs money. So does infrastructure. So does looking after workers and business.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
extender
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Re: Masks and Gloves

Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:50 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It’s like living in a non-stop chem warfare exercise, for real.


But we're not in MOPP IV, yet.
 
Bongodog49
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:35 am

Re: Masks and Gloves

Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:06 pm

Glove misuse is no different here in the UK, see pople pull up in their car wearing gloves, get out, do their grocery shopping, load it in the car, then drive the car home still wearing the same pair of gloves. As they will carry the shopping into the house (touched with the gloves) thats potentially their car, and home contaminated.
I have to wear gloves for my job, put on, worn to do the job, and then removed by gripping glove on glove and straight in the clinical waste bin.
All our supermarkets are trying to impose 2 metre distancing; well done the moron wearing a mask who walked right up behind my wife and daughter at the checkout this morning.
We have our prime minister lying in an intensive care bed and still our morons don't get it. what part of only get within 2 metres of people you share a home with can't they understand ?
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8463
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Re: Masks and Gloves

Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:47 pm

Many didn't know how to wash hands, many don't know how to tie shoe laces, I don't see any recommendation, don't wash hands or don't wear shoes.

But when it comes masks and gloves, all I hear is most don't use it properly, so don't use it.

Young don't want to use. Who will go to prom with someone who wears a mask.
African Americans seem to have stigma attached to cloth masks, they are avoiding.
Caucasians thinking this virus targets minorities so no need for us.
Asians are mostly wearing while shopping.

I suspect social engineering by foreign countries to discourage Americans from wearing masks..
All posts are just opinions.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6498
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Masks and Gloves

Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:58 pm

In my little town, I went to the food market today, everyone wearing disposable gloves, masks and screes at checkout. We’re told they’re not effective until now, the PPE is effective. Stands to reason anything that inhibits transmission is good.

No, but it feels like MOPP 3. My old wing commander once congratulated the Services commander for passing food delivery under chem warfare rules, “but who’d want to eat it?”

False security?

Let’s apply that zircon of analysis to:

Seat belts.
Parachutes
Condoms
Bulletproof vests
Airbags
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 1017
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: Masks and Gloves

Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:40 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
We’re told they’re not effective until now, the PPE is effective. Stands to reason anything that inhibits transmission is good.

PPE is only effective when correctly used. Most of the dolems walking around with it on are not using it correctly thus wasting their time and yours. With their inflated false sense of security they're also forgetting to adhere to even the simplest hygiene basics, which are more effective than any PPE the public could wear to start with.

So no, it doesn't stand to reason it's good. It's only good when properly used and properly used in conjunction with proper hygiene routines.


False sense of security applied:
Seat belts. - life changing injury or deadly when incorrectly used
Parachutes - deadly when incorrectly used
Condoms - life changing consequences/health effecting or deadly when incorrectly used
Bulletproof vests - deadly when incorrectly used
Airbags - can severely mame/be deadly when incorrectly used
 
kalvado
Posts: 2933
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Masks and Gloves

Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:51 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
In my little town, I went to the food market today, everyone wearing disposable gloves, masks and screes at checkout. We’re told they’re not effective until now, the PPE is effective. Stands to reason anything that inhibits transmission is good.

No, but it feels like MOPP 3. My old wing commander once congratulated the Services commander for passing food delivery under chem warfare rules, “but who’d want to eat it?”

False security?

Let’s apply that zircon of analysis to:

Seat belts.
Parachutes
Condoms
Bulletproof vests
Airbags

General PPE usage was sour grapes fopr US over past month as hospitals literally couldn't provide most basic PPE to medical stuff.
It was more or less reasonable to conentrate things at that point, although why homeemade masks were not recommended is beyond me.
Now, as someone upthread mentioned, we're victims of social engineering by foreing agencies such as CDC and FDA. Those agencies actually seem to be foreign to the concept of common sense, though.

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