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ArchGuy1
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:45 pm

alfa164 wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Trump needs to be impeached a second time and this time convicted, because his Navy cabinet is more concerned with morale that the health and safety of the crew onboard their ships.


Concerned with morale? He just undermined the moral of every enlisted man in the Navy. Not to mention the CO's...

He is concerned with saving face... and kissing his bosses ass... that bigly, beautiful ass...

:roll:

The Spanish Flu in 1918 was not reported the way it should have in countries like the United States in an effort to boost morale. Spain was the only country where it was reported in full deal because the country was neutral. This gave the impression that Spain was hit especially hard, thus why it is called the Spanish Flu. Big mistake and if you do not learn from history, it will repeat itself. Same here with COVID 19 happening because of such policies.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:24 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
This digital age of young adults are more in touch with themselves any of us ever were


And that’s all they’re in touch with—they’re selfish, oafish selves. Didn’t they read the part about Service Before
Self, which is bedrock military ethic?


GF, I respect your knowledge, viewpoints, and service, but do you really think that? It's not like any of those sailors jumped off the boat as soon as COVID-19 was first diagnosed on their boat. They're still there (or billeted elsewhere on Guam). They're still doing their jobs as they're allowed to. They're still serving, which is the antithesis of selfishness. What's your beef?

The crew of the TR doesn't love Captain Crozier, they respect him. He was with them as the virus swept the boat and when the rubber met the road he showed more than the perfunctory 'you people matter' to them. Then this a$$clown swoops in, avoids interaction with the crew (because of the virus), bashes their former CO over the 1MC, and they're not even allowed to say "WTF?" Think back to your times in the AF: you guys never talked politics on long flights into Somalia? You guys never said anything derogatory about 'Slick Willy' or any of the Clinton era antics? No wise cracks from the squadron bar or auditorium as someone briefed the latest edict from on high? There were no howls of protest in your squadron when General Fogleman was sacked? Crew dogs talk, and so do sailors. The only difference is this made it online.

The real irony of all this (other than him firing Crozier for his email, then thinking his comments wouldn't make it online) is that if the Navy hadn't sat on its hands with the TR, to the point where an up-and-coming CO has to write an email begging to get his crew off the boat, it would be back at sea and operationally effective far more quickly than is now possible.
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rfields5421
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:06 pm

seb146 wrote:
rfields5421 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
What order did the Republican administration give to Crozier that Crozier deliberately disobeyed? I guess it is stupid and naive to look out for the health and safety of those under you. Kinda like what the current head of the Republican party is doing........


He showed a lack of judgement in 'publishing' his memorandum to so many people, where it was very likely the information would be public.


In other words, he knew he would be fired
Accurate.

seb146 wrote:
because the leader of the Armed Forces would do nothing but call him names .


Not accurate.

I believe the actual order removing him from command came from Commander Naval Air Forces Pacific. He is force commander for all aircraft carriers in the Pacific and I believe he is Crozier's direct reporting superior. Might be wrong about that.

I suspect the Captain, and many others, were surprised that the Acting SECNAV jumped many levels of the Chain of Command to demand the removal of the Captain from command.

Again, I'll say no one with experience in military structure and command is surprised he was relieved. He crossed a line. It is not an order he disobeyed, but a long standing principle that you give the chain of command time to deal with problems. Taking the issue outside the chain of command ensured he would lose 'trust' of those above him in the chain of command.

His purpose may not have been to have the story public in the US media.

But as I said in the first post I made on this matter on the locked thread - saying his ship was combat ineffective in a non-classified document did cross another line. The memorandum should have been classified information. Low level of course, but still classified.

I'm certain the Government of Guam viewed the TR and her crew as the same threat level to the health of the people of Guam as the people of California/ San Francisco and Florida/ Fort Lauderdale viewed cruise ships with active COVID-19 cases. Some of the initial stories told of great reluctance of GovGuam to have the sailors off the ship. A lack of suitable facilities to house the combined crew of an aircraft carrier and an embarked air wing. There is not that much military barracks space on the Naval Station, or Andresen AFB. My old barracks, and the other squadron barracks at the old Naval Air Station could not hold that many people. Looking at the current Bing Maps and Google Maps images - 16 of those barracks still exist, but I doubt they are in condition to occupied. Several have apparently been converted into schools.

The Naval Station only 21 of those barracks buildings, and many of them have been converted for other usage. They are OLD buildings, late 50's early 60's. Converted from open bay and remodeled many times, but still old - and one group shower/ head per floor. Two stories. Which is almost as bad as being on the ship as far as trying to stop spread of a disease.

One story I saw indicated the TR sailors were going to be moved to some of the near vacant tourist hotels on Tumon Bay, where they would be two or four to a room, fed by room service until a two week quarantine passes. I've seen nothing on the actual condition of the crew, only that many were moved off the ship.

Much of the economy of Guam depends upon thousands of tourists from Japan, South Korea, possibly China. I'm sure that sector of the economy is shut down. Lot of people out of work. Since US income taxes paid by Guam citizens go directly to the Government of Guam, I'm not sure the stimulus package includes payments to those people.
Last edited by rfields5421 on Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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winginit
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:11 pm

Acting Secretary of the Navy Thomas Modly just offered up his resignation - he knows he messed up.

Unclear whether it will be accepted.

How very humiliating indeed.
 
rfields5421
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:18 pm

Update - according to the Pacific Daily News - the oldest newspaper on Guam - there are now 173 COVID-19 positive among the TR crew

More details https://www.guampdn.com/story/news/local/2020/04/07/173-uss-roosevelt-positive-covid-19-frank-cable-sequestered/2959116001/

Always had a warm spot for the PDN, Joe Murphy was the first person to ever pay me cash money for a photograph (a house fire in a civilian neighborhood) and a story.
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cpd
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:35 pm

rfields5421 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
What order did the Republican administration give to Crozier that Crozier deliberately disobeyed? I guess it is stupid and naive to look out for the health and safety of those under you. Kinda like what the current head of the Republican party is doing........


He showed a lack of judgement in 'publishing' his memorandum to so many people, where it was very likely the information would be public.

Command of an aircraft carrier is unlike commanding any other ship. He is running an airport. He has no ability to order any aircraft to do anything. Combat oriented - his sole responsibility is to try to defend the ship from attack - mainly close in point defense. He does not even determine the course of the ship, were it goes. Things like the port visit in Danang or the decision to move the ship to Guam - he provides input, but he does not make the final decision.

With his 3,200 man crew, the CO runs a hotel for almost 2,500 people. Providing food, berthing, sanitation, laundry (laundry on a carrier is a HUGE job), additional services such as barber shops, some small stores for a few items, entertainment, etc. He provides hanger space, storage for supplies - everything from spare tires for aircraft to weapons and fuel. One of his jobs is provide AARF, and ship's damage control. Modern carriers are much more a threat from aircraft accidents than the enemy.

The Carrier Air Wing Commander - usually a Captain (O-6) like the Commanding Officer of the carrier - is responsible for coordinating the squadrons and implement the battle plan if the carrier is an attack position, providing a CAP (Combat Air Patrol to defend the carrier). He is the one who says when flight operations begin and end, coordinated with the ship's CO. He keeps the peace and coordinates mission assignments between the four or five strike fighter squadrons, the AWACS squadron, the electronic warfare squadron, the logistic squadron, and helicopter squadrons.

Most of those squadrons are commanded by Navy Commanders (O-5). They are responsible for making sure their aircraft are ready to fly when needed, pilots trained and briefed, and handle the training of their people, support and maintenance as well flight crews.

An Admiral is the Carrier Strike Group Commander, I believe for the TR it is Rear Admiral Stephen T Koehler. He had overall mission authority for the group which includes the carrier, one or two cruisers and a destroyer squadron, which can be as little as two or as many as four destroyers or similar ships.

He has a lot of responsibility for defending the carrier with the other ships. Carriers are really helpless beasts. Their defensive capabilities are limited to short range what is called point defense. The cruisers are primarily a forward air defense component, the destroyers are a submarine defense component. All have a responsibility to try hard not to shoot down friendly aircraft also trying to defend the carrier.

It is a complicated demanding multi-faceted role to be Commanding Officer of an aircraft carrier. It takes a varied background and a lot of proven excellence to be considered for command of a carrier. Captain Crozier started his Navy carrier as a helicopter pilot flying from destroyers and frigates. Then he became an FA-18 pilot, flying strike missions off the USS Nimitz during 2003. He attended the Naval War College for his masters degree. After a tour as an FA-18 squadron CO, he went to a NATO command in Italy.

He completed a required year plus training in Naval Nuclear Power before a tour as XO of the USS Ronald Reagan, followed by a tour as Commanding Officer of the USS Blue Ridge - which is the at sea host/ home of the three star Commander of Seventh Fleet - and the oldest warship in the US Navy - she will cross 50 years of service in November.

A Commanding Officer has to have a 'broad' carrier because it is a very demanding job, and requires balancing a lot of different requirements, many of which he has no direct ability to command others to accomplish.

During operations, the CO and the Air Wing Commander are in close, less than hourly contact and coordination. In planning, it is the CO, the Air Wing Commander working with and under the Strike Group Commander.



What’s the plan for defending a carrier against a dangerous virus and preventing the illness or potential deaths of valuable people, or ‘resources’ if we want to use clinical, cold language (which is what I use most days).

All those long paragraphs didn’t mention much about this.

All of us in our various fields are having to throw out our old ways of doing things and adapt quickly to keep work happening.
Last edited by cpd on Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
NIKV69
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:41 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
This digital age of young adults are more in touch with themselves any of us ever were


And that’s all they’re in touch with—they’re selfish, oafish selves. Didn’t they read the part about Service Before
Self, which is bedrock military ethic?


That doesn't work today, either the military shapes up and readjusts or they find themselves without the manpower they need for the job they have to do.


This is horsehockey, we have been hearing this forever but it never seems to happen as there are plenty of men and women willing to serve that see the big picture and not themselves.

BN747 wrote:

Some idiots even voiced how my 'Chelsea Manning' paradigm was the a harbinger of what's to come, well...now it's here.

This digital age of young adults are more in touch with themselves any of us ever were. The see themselves as soldiers, yes...but not your fathers soldier.
When they see something wrong, they are going to 'say something, seek action any way they can within the lanes of respect but not necessarily a linear chain of command.


Laugh at Chelsea Manning all you want, that kind of ignorance will land you along side those who now feel awful about their cheap shots and ridicule of Alan Turing after history showed them who the real fool was. Manning threw the volley are correcting the wrongs allowed for far too long.


BN747


This has nothing to do with Chelsea Manning, I can see why you would want to tie to the two together but they are not similar. Also this inference that the trend will be superior officers airing their grievances publicly like this guy did and leaking info like Manning is not based in reality but in some other agenda.
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zakuivcustom
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:46 pm

winginit wrote:
Acting Secretary of the Navy Thomas Modly just offered up his resignation - he knows he messed up.

Unclear whether it will be accepted.

How very humiliating indeed.


His speech calling somebody "stupid" is just well, stupid. But also fits the so-call leader that's on the apex.

Oh well, another new Secnav I guess...
 
rfields5421
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:49 pm

I don't thing there is a 'plan' per se.

Past disease outbreaks have been small, and the usual result is the ship is confined to a pier, and sailors treated on the ship. That is basically what happened in this case. The Captain's frustration was in not being able to clear a few thousand sailors off the ship.

Social distancing is new, and I doubt the US Navy, or other military branches of the US or other nations have come to a workable plan to implement social distancing in military units, or ships. I've seen something that submarine crews have been told they will remain isolated in their boats until the crisis is past and new infection rates are minimal.

(I do not know for certain if women are currently stationed on carriers or squadrons embarked on carriers. I do understand that women pilots have been to sea on carriers. Was so the last time I was on a carrier in December 1991, but there were not enlisted crew at that time.)

And this was/ is a SMALL outbreak among a population which should be very healthy and at minimal risk of several complications from the disease, as we know it now.
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DLFREEBIRD
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:56 pm

Modly told the staff he's quitting. Then resigned. And his resignation was accepted https://www.wric.com/news/acting-navy-s ... -his-post/
 
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seb146
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:16 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

And that’s all they’re in touch with—they’re selfish, oafish selves. Didn’t they read the part about Service Before
Self, which is bedrock military ethic?


That doesn't work today, either the military shapes up and readjusts or they find themselves without the manpower they need for the job they have to do.


This is horsehockey, we have been hearing this forever but it never seems to happen as there are plenty of men and women willing to serve that see the big picture and not themselves.


We are seeing the "big picture" being Asian Americans being beaten for being Asian American, LGBTQ people being denied equal rights, African Americans being denied equal rights, and those serving in the military see themselves in those people. Those serving in the military no longer see one homogeneous mass, but individuals who make this country great. They see themselves in us. How are they supposed to defend us when they are sick or dead anyway?
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:29 pm

seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

That doesn't work today, either the military shapes up and readjusts or they find themselves without the manpower they need for the job they have to do.


This is horsehockey, we have been hearing this forever but it never seems to happen as there are plenty of men and women willing to serve that see the big picture and not themselves.


We are seeing the "big picture" being Asian Americans being beaten for being Asian American, LGBTQ people being denied equal rights, African Americans being denied equal rights, and those serving in the military see themselves in those people. Those serving in the military no longer see one homogeneous mass, but individuals who make this country great. They see themselves in us. How are they supposed to defend us when they are sick or dead anyway?


Any military that sees itself as individuals, not a fighting force, is a mob with weapons and will be defeated. See Patton’s speech.
 
alfa164
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:49 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Oh well, another new Secnav I guess...


Another New Acting Secretary of the Navy; that seems to be the program these days.
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A101
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:56 pm

Since the other thread is locked, it seems the the CO made the right call after all


US navy captain fired for voicing virus concern tests positive


https://www.defencetalk.com/us-navy-cap ... ive-75071/
 
BN747
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:04 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

This is horsehockey, we have been hearing this forever but it never seems to happen as there are plenty of men and women willing to serve that see the big picture and not themselves.


We are seeing the "big picture" being Asian Americans being beaten for being Asian American, LGBTQ people being denied equal rights, African Americans being denied equal rights, and those serving in the military see themselves in those people. Those serving in the military no longer see one homogeneous mass, but individuals who make this country great. They see themselves in us. How are they supposed to defend us when they are sick or dead anyway?


Any military that sees itself as individuals, not a fighting force, is a mob with weapons and will be defeated. See Patton’s speech.


That's not true at all! It's a damn shame that a civilian such as Seb146 has a better understanding than a man who's had a life long military career as a pilot.

Yes pilots see themselves that way then as a group. Rank and file troops never saw themselves that way, just as Seb said they are coming into that within the last decade or so.
Grunts,ground troops have always seen them selves as a unit, a group..individualism was greatly discouraged and many were tossed out for exhibiting such behavior, it's drilled out of you in boot camp although a few slipped thru only to have that trait become problematic down the line.

The military before social media held troops in check and that their ability to think outside the box was okay around the barracks with silly stupid shit..but that was it. On the job, post where ever, everyone knew their place what was up to snuff and what was not...and you'd get called on it right on the spot.

Seb did an excellent job in explaining the social dynamic among troops today and that has given them a link of communication that never existed before this era.
And it is already making a huge and obvious today but unpredictable impact down the line.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
BN747
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:07 pm

A101 wrote:
Since the other thread is locked, it seems the the CO made the right call after all


US navy captain fired for voicing virus concern tests positive


https://www.defencetalk.com/us-navy-cap ... ive-75071/


He absolutely did, troops are far smarter today than my day for the obvious reasons, they are recognizing their value beyond anything those of us who served 15-20 years ago.

I see some old stalwarts wish to hang on to the age of old...but it's gone and we can't possibly go back.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
rfields5421
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:28 pm

One other point re military planning for an infectious disease.

During my career during outbreaks of flu versions - we were marched down and lined up to the latest flu shot. Even if it wasn't for the swine flu, the hope was that some help in warding off that version would help. As soon as a vaccine was developed, the military was usually the first large population to get vaccinated.

Other things include keeping ships at sea for long periods to avoid infection. A bit hard with an aircraft carrier, but either the planes can be flown ashore, or no planes that have visited shore or other ships allowed to land, but it can be done The US Navy is quite capable of keeping an aircraft carrier at sea for months and months, resupplying the ship via under way replenishment techniques. I suspect other US carriers at sea have such orders,

But once a disease gets on ship, control is extremely difficult.

COVID-19 is new in that as of yet nobody has any real clue how to prevent the infection, fight it off, or treat the underlying disease except isolation and minimizing chances for personal contact.
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Tugger
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:38 pm

Yes, infection in a crew on board is insidious.

The ships are well enough designed nowadays to keep things OUT and the crews know process and procedure (body protections, secure entry/exit locations etc.) to keep whatever is outside from affectting inside much. But inside, an active infection of whatever type is near impossible to manage. You can't where bio suits 24/7.

There is no easy way to isolate any significant portion of a crew. They all interact and basically have to at some point some how. Just look at how difficult it was on the cruise ships, and they have separate accommodations and shower and toilet facilities (of course food delivery and clean up is all shared which as I understand it was the hardest link on the cruise ships).

Tugg
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BN747
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:41 pm

A101 wrote:
Since the other thread is locked, it seems the the CO made the right call after all


US navy captain fired for voicing virus concern tests positive


https://www.defencetalk.com/us-navy-cap ... ive-75071/


And trump idiot who went full blown stupid on those sailors has just resigned...as should his dumbass boss.

Someone here said that turd would be gone by week's end, that member called it.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:44 pm

BN747 wrote:

And trump idiot who went full blown stupid on those sailors has just resigned...as should his dumbass boss.

Someone here said that turd would be gone by week's end, that member called it.

BN747


Any man who thinks his comments won't get leaked by the press in this day and age is either too naive or too stupid to be the acting SECNAV. Irony has never tasted so sweet.

I'm sure the crew of the TR are cheering him being sacked, too.
"I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook, and, by gum, it put them on the map!"
 
BN747
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:53 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
BN747 wrote:

And trump idiot who went full blown stupid on those sailors has just resigned...as should his dumbass boss.

Someone here said that turd would be gone by week's end, that member called it.

BN747


Any man who thinks his comments won't get leaked by the press in this day and age is either too naive or too stupid to be the acting SECNAV. Irony has never tasted so sweet.

I'm sure the crew of the TR are cheering him being sacked, too.


Not only that CNN is reporting 'shaken confidence' from the brass over this/. But I wonder who the brass is now that too may trusted admirals have resigned like McRaven.

There has to be some Navy yes man either score points in the vain Gen. Michael Flynn & Eddie Gallagher, you can count on this guys for representing America in it's best light.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:08 pm

BN747 wrote:
Not only that CNN is reporting 'shaken confidence' from the brass over this/. But I wonder who the brass is now that too may trusted admirals have resigned like McRaven.

There has to be some Navy yes man either score points in the vain Gen. Michael Flynn & Eddie Gallagher, you can count on this guys for representing America in it's best light.

BN747


No joke. And the GOP faithful will swallow it all hook, line, and sinker, and not think critically that true heroes are shaking their heads.

To paraphrase the Gipper, I didn't leave the Republican Party, the Republican Party left me.
"I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook, and, by gum, it put them on the map!"
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:05 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
This digital age of young adults are more in touch with themselves any of us ever were


And that’s all they’re in touch with—they’re selfish, oafish selves. Didn’t they read the part about Service Before
Self, which is bedrock military ethic?


GF, I respect your knowledge, viewpoints, and service, but do you really think that? It's not like any of those sailors jumped off the boat as soon as COVID-19 was first diagnosed on their boat. They're still there (or billeted elsewhere on Guam). They're still doing their jobs as they're allowed to. They're still serving, which is the antithesis of selfishness. What's your beef?

The crew of the TR doesn't love Captain Crozier, they respect him. He was with them as the virus swept the boat and when the rubber met the road he showed more than the perfunctory 'you people matter' to them. Then this a$$clown swoops in, avoids interaction with the crew (because of the virus), bashes their former CO over the 1MC, and they're not even allowed to say "WTF?" Think back to your times in the AF: you guys never talked politics on long flights into Somalia? You guys never said anything derogatory about 'Slick Willy' or any of the Clinton era antics? No wise cracks from the squadron bar or auditorium as someone briefed the latest edict from on high? There were no howls of protest in your squadron when General Fogleman was sacked? Crew dogs talk, and so do sailors. The only difference is this made it online.

The real irony of all this (other than him firing Crozier for his email, then thinking his comments wouldn't make it online) is that if the Navy hadn't sat on its hands with the TR, to the point where an up-and-coming CO has to write an email begging to get his crew off the boat, it would be back at sea and operationally effective far more quickly than is now possible.


Yeah, it was a bit overwrought comment. My nephew was on the Lincoln as a helo pilot, 295 days underway, a new record and these seamen sail for a couple weeks, get docked at NS Alana and act like they’re being punished. The CO and the Navy had them at a dock, were getting them medical assistance, maybe not as fast as they’d like, but it happening. And Guam just can’t accept 4,000 crew in moment’s notice. I’ve landed there with a C-5 crew and it’s taken an hour to find rooms.

I’ll look forward to the CNO’s investigation report. What went on between the CO and the RADM .of the CSG, about 25’ away would be interesting. Everyone thinks the crew was being treated like galley slaves, I sincerely believe that’s overwrought. 3500 tested, 260 positive and no hospitalizations or deaths yet. It’s an overreaction.

GF
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:20 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
LyleLanley wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

And that’s all they’re in touch with—they’re selfish, oafish selves. Didn’t they read the part about Service Before
Self, which is bedrock military ethic?


GF, I respect your knowledge, viewpoints, and service, but do you really think that? It's not like any of those sailors jumped off the boat as soon as COVID-19 was first diagnosed on their boat. They're still there (or billeted elsewhere on Guam). They're still doing their jobs as they're allowed to. They're still serving, which is the antithesis of selfishness. What's your beef?

The crew of the TR doesn't love Captain Crozier, they respect him. He was with them as the virus swept the boat and when the rubber met the road he showed more than the perfunctory 'you people matter' to them. Then this a$$clown swoops in, avoids interaction with the crew (because of the virus), bashes their former CO over the 1MC, and they're not even allowed to say "WTF?" Think back to your times in the AF: you guys never talked politics on long flights into Somalia? You guys never said anything derogatory about 'Slick Willy' or any of the Clinton era antics? No wise cracks from the squadron bar or auditorium as someone briefed the latest edict from on high? There were no howls of protest in your squadron when General Fogleman was sacked? Crew dogs talk, and so do sailors. The only difference is this made it online.

The real irony of all this (other than him firing Crozier for his email, then thinking his comments wouldn't make it online) is that if the Navy hadn't sat on its hands with the TR, to the point where an up-and-coming CO has to write an email begging to get his crew off the boat, it would be back at sea and operationally effective far more quickly than is now possible.


Yeah, it was a bit overwrought comment. My nephew was on the Lincoln as a helo pilot, 295 days underway, a new record and these seamen sail for a couple weeks, get docked at NS Alana and act like they’re being punished. The CO and the Navy had them at a dock, were getting them medical assistance, maybe not as fast as they’d like, but it happening. And Guam just can’t accept 4,000 crew in moment’s notice. I’ve landed there with a C-5 crew and it’s taken an hour to find rooms.

I’ll look forward to the CNO’s investigation report. What went on between the CO and the RADM .of the CSG, about 25’ away would be interesting. Everyone thinks the crew was being treated like galley slaves, I sincerely believe that’s overwrought. 3500 tested, 260 positive and no hospitalizations or deaths yet. It’s an overreaction.

GF


Ugh, what is it about the Lincoln? Didn't she have the previous record, too? A bro of mine was in VF-31 for their "Just kidding" tour: they were on their way home to San Diego, stopped in Perth IIRC, and were then ordered back to the NAG for OIF. That was nearly 10 months, too, I reckon.

I've been there with a basic crew (4 + chiefs) and AMCC still took 45 minutes to get us rooms after trying all the dumps first. I'd imagine Tumon Bay is pretty empty, though, so I'm leaning more on feet-dragging by higher-ups than availability. No one wants to be the guy who says "where is the carrier, Mr. President? She's at pier-side...".

It'll definitely be an interesting report.
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:46 am

BN747 wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

He reportedly spends at least that long solely on hair, not getting ready in general. He’s a validation hound.

https://www.playboy.com/articles/donald-trump-interview


I agree. I’m just saying that a man can take pride or spend time on their appearance and still be secure. Trump is obviously highly insecure though. I would be too if I looked like him.


Gay men are the exception to the 'no man should live the bathroom in prep time'...that's a given because it's a whole other culture, I think Aaron meant 'str8 dudes' and that is a centuries old 'dude thing'.

If the corpulent president spent half that 'prep time' on a eliptical, that waist would drop down to a 50"...but those cheeseburgers and fries..

BN747


Lol, in that case I agree.
 
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:21 am

One of the sailors from the USS Teddy Roosevelt was found unconscious and transferred to a Guam ICU.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/09/politics ... index.html
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alfa164
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:14 am

casinterest wrote:
One of the sailors from the USS Teddy Roosevelt was found unconscious and transferred to a Guam ICU.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/09/politics ... index.html


Too bad Modley isn't still around to tell him what a wimp he is...

:roll:
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:22 pm

Think of this from a less national, less political point of view. The crew (and I'd say probably the bulk of the rank and file of the Navy) support this CO, who did bend the rules to some extent but more importantly, put the welfare of his sailors before his career.

That to me speaks to a problem of leadership in the Navy where subordinates don't think the upper ranks care about their well-being.

It has nothing to do with being a snowflake. If the older veterans on this forum served under leaders who were mostly self serving and didn't care about their troops, I think they'd view this differently. Hard to say if there was a degradation of leadership over the decades.

The Skipper knew the risks going in and did it anyway. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with his decision, I think it's clear that Captain Crozier cares greatly for his sailors and sacrificed his career for them. That's why many are willing to look past any sort of slight transgressions and breach of protocol by him
 
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:53 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Think of this from a less national, less political point of view. The crew (and I'd say probably the bulk of the rank and file of the Navy) support this CO, who did bend the rules to some extent but more importantly, put the welfare of his sailors before his career.

That to me speaks to a problem of leadership in the Navy where subordinates don't think the upper ranks care about their well-being.

It has nothing to do with being a snowflake. If the older veterans on this forum served under leaders who were mostly self serving and didn't care about their troops, I think they'd view this differently. Hard to say if there was a degradation of leadership over the decades.

The Skipper knew the risks going in and did it anyway. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with his decision, I think it's clear that Captain Crozier cares greatly for his sailors and sacrificed his career for them. That's why many are willing to look past any sort of slight transgressions and breach of protocol by him


A highly reasoned and cogent analysis. One thing we can hopefully all agree on is that this Captain took action outside the rulebook because he commendably decided it was ‘the right thing’ to do.
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:52 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
One thing we can hopefully all agree on is that this Captain took action outside the rulebook because he commendably decided it was ‘the right thing’ to do.

This is why I believe I'd have trouble fitting into the military life. I'm all about following rules, but even rules have to take a backseat when we're talking about the welfare of actual human lives. Yes, soldiers and sailors are replaceable, but they're people nonetheless, people who (for whatever reason) are volunteering their years to serve the nation. Their safebeing should come first, especially if the ship is not engaged in a active combat.
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889091
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:40 am

Tugger wrote:
Yes, infection in a crew on board is insidious.

The ships are well enough designed nowadays to keep things OUT and the crews know process and procedure (body protections, secure entry/exit locations etc.) to keep whatever is outside from affectting inside much. But inside, an active infection of whatever type is near impossible to manage. You can't where bio suits 24/7.

There is no easy way to isolate any significant portion of a crew. They all interact and basically have to at some point some how. Just look at how difficult it was on the cruise ships, and they have separate accommodations and shower and toilet facilities (of course food delivery and clean up is all shared which as I understand it was the hardest link on the cruise ships).

Tugg


I think the folks at the DoD are scrambling to write new protocols to protect the crew from these types of virus outbreaks. Uncle Sam is not the only one impacted. It would seem the French have a similar problem:

https://www.euronews.com/2020/04/08/cor ... -navy-ship
 
alfa164
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:47 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Think of this from a less national, less political point of view. The crew (and I'd say probably the bulk of the rank and file of the Navy) support this CO, who did bend the rules to some extent but more importantly, put the welfare of his sailors before his career.
That to me speaks to a problem of leadership in the Navy where subordinates don't think the upper ranks care about their well-being.
It has nothing to do with being a snowflake. If the older veterans on this forum served under leaders who were mostly self serving and didn't care about their troops, I think they'd view this differently. Hard to say if there was a degradation of leadership over the decades.
The Skipper knew the risks going in and did it anyway. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with his decision, I think it's clear that Captain Crozier cares greatly for his sailors and sacrificed his career for them. That's why many are willing to look past any sort of slight transgressions and breach of protocol by him


:checkmark: Very well-put. Captain Crozier was in, to repeat a common analogy, a "Catch-22" role, and he chose to do what he felt was necessary to protect his crew and his ship. It is hard to imaging what his current critics would be saying if he had taken the other route: said nothing, and allowed the situation onboard to deteriorate further. Those screaming for his head now would probably be screaming for his head in that case, too.


Aaron747 wrote:
A highly reasoned and cogent analysis. One thing we can hopefully all agree on is that this Captain took action outside the rulebook because he commendably decided it was ‘the right thing’ to do.


:checkmark: Agreed. No doubt the good Captain is, in the eyes of his crew - and, in the long run, in the eyes of the American people - the true hero here.


I just saw an interesting take on how that politicization has affected the military, from Jeff McCausland, retired U.S. Army colonel and former member of the National Security Council. He notes in part:

"Officers are taught from the beginning of their military careers that the profession is apolitical. The oath they swear is not to the president, despite the fact that he is the commander-in-chief. Rather it is to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic.” This forms the basis of civil-military relations, and it has served America well for over two centuries. It is likely that few Americans realize the United States is only one of handful of countries that has never experienced a serious military threat to civil authority."

After pointing out that Trump initially appeared to give support to - and get support from - the military, he goes on to show how this disintegrated as the administration alienated both the top brass and the enlisted men. That leads us to the current situation:

"Prior to our current crisis, some argued that the military and those retired officers who occupied senior administration positions exercised “respectful disobedience” in order to appear supportive while keeping Trump’s worst excesses at bay. While opponents of the president might find solace in these efforts, they still threaten the vital civil-military balance. Furthermore, those experienced retired military leaders have all since departed the administration and been replaced by Trump loyalists like Modly.

Equally concerning is the way the Trump administration has established new norms for the politicization of the military. These have included involving senior retired officers in political campaigns, urging troops to lobby Congress, deploying forces to the Mexican border to underscore a political statement, and using funds appropriated by the Congress for the military for pet projects."


The whole article is thought-provoking, authoritative, and definitely worth reading.


https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/t ... cna1180806
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:01 pm

I was worried when I joined up that I would have to pledge support to the President, and was so happy that it was rather to uphold the constitution. While I was against the current president at the time, I would have felt the same way about any president. Smart guys, those writers of the constitution.
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alfa164
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:06 am

Tomorrow is Easter Sunday. I hope all believers read Psalms 108:8:

"Let his days be few; and let another take his office."

(King James Version)
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GDB
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:46 pm

Sadly, a sailor from this carrier has now died from Covid-19.
 
alfa164
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Re: LISTEN-Sailors Yell Profanities At Trump’s Acting Navy Secretary As He Slammed Fired Captain: “He Was Trying To Help

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:16 pm

Even in old age, I see there is still a lot to learn. I didn't know this about Teddy Roosevelt; apparently, Captain Crozier came by his actions naturally:

"During the summer of 1898, Colonel Theodore Roosevelt, U.S. Army, was leading the famed “Rough Riders” in Cuba. The Rough Riders were part of the Army’s Fifth Corps garrisoned near Santiago de Cuba. At the time, more than 4,000 of the Fifth Corps’ 4,270 soldiers were sick with malaria and yellow fever. Many were on the verge of dying. The eight divisional commanders, including Roosevelt, were convinced that if they remained in Cuba Fifth Corps would be wiped out.

The divisional commanders met with Major General William R. Shafter, Fifth Corps Commander, and requested that Fifth Corps immediately redeploy to the United States. While it is unclear how Shafter responded to the request, he was certainly aware that President McKinley wanted to maintain a military presence in Cuba until the United States was able to finish peace negotiations with Spain. Whatever his reaction, the divisional commanders left the meeting compelled to put their request in writing."

...

"Roosevelt delivered the letter to Shafter, but, presumably not convinced the corps commander would act on it in a timely fashion, also allegedly handed a copy of it to the Associated Press correspondent who was covering the Cuba beat. That correspondent quickly cabled the letter to AP headquarters and it published nationwide the same day.

The public outcry was overwhelming and unanimous in accusing the McKinley Administration of not caring about the troops. McKinley summoned his Secretary of War, Russell A. Alger, and vented his fury that the letter was leaked and ordered him to do what he could to make the problem go away. Alger ordered the Navy to send transport ships to retrieve Fifth Corps from Cuba and the Army to ready facilities at Camp Wikoff on Long Island to house the stricken soldiers once they arrived back in the United States."


Crozier, of course, was Captain of the Aircraft Carrier Teddy Roosevelt...


https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2020/april/uss-theodore-roosevelt-commanding-officer-followed-example-colonel
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Navy may reinstate fired Captain of Navy Carrier

Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:51 am

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4930 ... s-outbreak

I agree with his reinstatement, this man is a man who stands above which you have to be to command a nuclear carrier in our Navy. A terrible injustice will be corrected.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
apodino
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Re: Navy may reinstate fired Captain of Navy Carrier

Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:25 am

I agree too, this guy stuck his neck out to protect his crew, and that is what a good captain would do. I actually hope they make this guy an Admiral.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Navy may reinstate fired Captain of Navy Carrier

Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:29 am

apodino wrote:
I agree too, this guy stuck his neck out to protect his crew, and that is what a good captain would do. I actually hope they make this guy an Admiral.


Absolutely, he followed the old tradition of going down with his ship/career for his crew. The respect for him was quite evident when he left the ship and quite evident when the trump idiot bad mouthed him.
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Aaron747
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Re: Navy may reinstate fired Captain of Navy Carrier

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:01 am

Absolutely the right decision. The departed SecNavy was a POS.
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WarRI1
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Re: Navy may reinstate fired Captain of Navy Carrier

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:18 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Absolutely the right decision. The departed SecNavy was a POS.



And that is being kind in my view. A POS appointee having that kind of power over an honorable man. Of course that is normal in an abnormal administration.
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DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Navy may reinstate fired Captain of Navy Carrier

Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:52 am

great morality boost for the soldiers, if they do.
 
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Re: Navy may reinstate fired Captain of Navy Carrier

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:32 pm

Good deal that guy Modly was a weasel anyway
 
anrec80
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Re: Navy may reinstate fired Captain of Navy Carrier

Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:03 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/493057-navy-may-reinstate-fired-captain-who-asked-for-help-with-coronavirus-outbreak

I agree with his reinstatement, this man is a man who stands above which you have to be to command a nuclear carrier in our Navy. A terrible injustice will be corrected.


Perfectly agree - the captain made his primary responsibility - which is for health and lives of his crew - as his top priority, and did the perfectly right thing to get them ashore. And he did what he had to do since initially his superiors did not want to take the right life-saving actions.
 
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Re: Updated: Navy may reinstate fired Captain of Navy Carrier

Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:01 pm

Modly's first apology was a mealy mouthed. Friend told me he heard the second apology where Modly said it was the worst thing he had ever done in his life. I don't have a link.
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wingman
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Re: Navy may reinstate fired Captain of Navy Carrier

Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:10 pm

stratosphere wrote:
Good deal that guy Modly was a weasel anyway


I know right? It's weird how many weasels Trump hires. I guess they must prefer company.
 
alfa164
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Re: Navy may reinstate fired Captain of Navy Carrier

Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:18 pm

wingman wrote:
It's weird how many weasels Trump hires. I guess they must prefer company.


Apparently, more weasels than we knew about already. Today it came out that Captain Crozier had sent his letter to 10 people - 3 Admirals, and copies to 7 Captains - not the "20 or 30" people Modley originally claimed:


https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4931 ... ged-report
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Navy may reinstate fired Captain of Navy Carrier

Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:21 am

alfa164 wrote:
wingman wrote:
It's weird how many weasels Trump hires. I guess they must prefer company.


Apparently, more weasels than we knew about already. Today it came out that Captain Crozier had sent his letter to 10 people - 3 Admirals, and copies to 7 Captains - not the "20 or 30" people Modley originally claimed:


https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4931 ... ged-report

At the end of the day, it could have been just 1. The number doesn't matter, it's who it was sent to.

Officers in the US military are not taught blind obedience. Through their commissioning source, they learn that sometimes you may have to defy orders or do other things technically incorrect. That's how you prevent stuff like the Nazis "just following orders" or some of the massacres in Vietnam.

If you do decide to make this jump, you better damn well be sure you are doing the right thing.

I have little doubt he sent it out to "too many people." But that was the point. I mean there can be too many too many people, you don't need to blast the email out to the entire Navy. But I would not be surprised if he technically breached protocol, intentionally, and strategically sent it outside the normal chain of command

Why? That's the million dollar question. Was this truly the only way to get the help his sailors needed? I'm not sure we'll ever know. Either way, misguided or not, he put his sailors in front of his career. He knew the stakes and he (rightfully, unrightfully?) paid the price. And I'm sure he doesn't give a damn about a star over his leaders.

Ultimately, it's up to the Navy to decide. Guys, he may have had the best intentions but STILL acted unreasonably. Maybe he did tell his chain of command things were fine (or something along those lines) and then went off the deep end. That would be an incorrect course of action, even if he "meant to do the right thing."

Think of it in these terms ^. Justice may or may not be served, but this is not really a Trump thing (he's somewhat connected but not as much as people are making it sound.) It's not a "he's innocent as long as he did the right thing." The death of the sailor does not necessarily vindicate the Skipper. If you are pro Trump you shouldn't automatically be against Capt Crozier and if you're anti Trump you shouldn't automatically be for Capt Crozier!!!

I hope our Navy has the integrity to do the right thing and the transparency for us all to trust them, because this is all in their hands
 
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Re: Updated: Navy may reinstate fired Captain of Navy Carrier

Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:51 am

I hope our Navy has the integrity to do the right thing and the transparency for us all to trust them, because this is all in their hands.

That is for sure, let us hope they do, we need all the transparency we can get theses days. We also need to maintain esprit de Corps among our voluntary service members.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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Re: Updated: Navy may reinstate fired Captain of Navy Carrier

Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:24 pm

WHat I honestrly found most intriguing was from a post in the other thread about CPT Crozier:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1444171

alfa164 wrote:
Even in old age, I see there is still a lot to learn. I didn't know this about Teddy Roosevelt; apparently, Captain Crozier came by his actions naturally:

"During the summer of 1898, Colonel Theodore Roosevelt, U.S. Army, was leading the famed “Rough Riders” in Cuba. The Rough Riders were part of the Army’s Fifth Corps garrisoned near Santiago de Cuba. At the time, more than 4,000 of the Fifth Corps’ 4,270 soldiers were sick with malaria and yellow fever. Many were on the verge of dying. The eight divisional commanders, including Roosevelt, were convinced that if they remained in Cuba Fifth Corps would be wiped out.

The divisional commanders met with Major General William R. Shafter, Fifth Corps Commander, and requested that Fifth Corps immediately redeploy to the United States. While it is unclear how Shafter responded to the request, he was certainly aware that President McKinley wanted to maintain a military presence in Cuba until the United States was able to finish peace negotiations with Spain. Whatever his reaction, the divisional commanders left the meeting compelled to put their request in writing."

...

"Roosevelt delivered the letter to Shafter, but, presumably not convinced the corps commander would act on it in a timely fashion, also allegedly handed a copy of it to the Associated Press correspondent who was covering the Cuba beat. That correspondent quickly cabled the letter to AP headquarters and it published nationwide the same day.

The public outcry was overwhelming and unanimous in accusing the McKinley Administration of not caring about the troops. McKinley summoned his Secretary of War, Russell A. Alger, and vented his fury that the letter was leaked and ordered him to do what he could to make the problem go away. Alger ordered the Navy to send transport ships to retrieve Fifth Corps from Cuba and the Army to ready facilities at Camp Wikoff on Long Island to house the stricken soldiers once they arrived back in the United States."


Crozier, of course, was Captain of the Aircraft Carrier Teddy Roosevelt...
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2020/april/uss-theodore-roosevelt-commanding-officer-followed-example-colonel

I know this is not the same but I love the coincidental symmetry of it all (but that that imply there might be a PRESIDENT Crozier someday? :spin: :lol: :stirthepot: )

Tugg
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Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos