Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
PixelPilot
Topic Author
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:19 am

VP Choice for the democratic party.

Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:20 pm

I figured I will start this thread as it will be interesting to see who will they go with.
In my view the VP is ultimately going to be the president as Joe won't last.

Right now I would say it's either Harris or Warren.
Joe said a woman and they seem to have similar base with the numbers going on Warrens side.

What's your opinion?
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1579
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:24 pm

Of those two, Warren is hands down the better pick.

That said, if he makes a “safe” pick, it could really hurt come November. The Dems needs someone a little bit unexpected (maybe Stacey Abrams??) in order to draw in more support.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 8474
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:32 pm

If it's a woman, the three leading contenders, in my view, are Harris, Whitmer, and Abrams. There are stretches like Klobuchar and Cortez-Masto from NV but Klobuchar is too moderate (need to balance the ticket for progressives) and C-M has nothing under her belt.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1579
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:37 pm

I feel like Klobuchar would be 2020’s Tim Kaine. Nice enough, but not very exciting.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 3810
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:46 pm

NWAESC wrote:
I feel like Klobuchar would be 2020’s Tim Kaine. Nice enough, but not very exciting.

That's a really good analogy. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing her on the ticket but I think you are correct in that she won't light a fire under the majority of the electorate
 
TangoandCash
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:52 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:11 pm

Warren might be a bit too progressive if part of the strategy is appealing to moderate Republicans who can't hold their nose and vote for Trumpet.

Some executive (i.e. governor) experience would be good, considering Biden is 77.
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3581
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:14 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
In my view the VP is ultimately going to be the president as Joe won't last.


That's alot of credit.

Every month before the election, he seems to be diminishing more and more.

The election is still 7 months away (if it isn't postponed further to COVID), and the nationwide campaigning cycle hasn't even begun to ramp up.

Hard to see him lasting even through that.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1579
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:20 pm

It won’t be postponed. I’m not even sure it can be, tbh.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
FGITD
Posts: 963
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:37 pm

NWAESC wrote:
It won’t be postponed. I’m not even sure it can be, tbh.


Seems like it could in theory, but it's not as simple as the president declaring it can't be done on that date. Would require an act of Congress.

Also worth noting that regardless of election, the sitting president's term still ends, and if no successor is elected the succession is followed down to the speaker of the House. No such thing as getting an extra few months or a year
 
Okie
Posts: 4146
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:38 pm

You are putting the cart before the horse.
The DNC has not chosen the candidate as of yet.
Shenanigans yet to happen.
The biggest clue is that Obama has not weighed in yet.

Okie
 
NIKV69
Posts: 13473
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:54 pm

Okie wrote:
You are putting the cart before the horse.
The DNC has not chosen the candidate as of yet.
Shenanigans yet to happen.
The biggest clue is that Obama has not weighed in yet.

Okie


Very good point.

Choosing Harris would hurt Biden, He already has CA and he needs a state in play. I know Biden doesn't want to pick someone that is divisive so I still stick to Klobuchar. Though Clyburn is probably calling him every 2 hours telling him he saved you so pick a black running mate.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
stlgph
Posts: 11221
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:04 pm

I wonder where Gretchen Whitmer is on the list.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2519
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:12 pm

stlgph wrote:
I wonder where Gretchen Whitmer is on the list.


Yes, she's been making quite a name for herself these past few days. But not for good reasons. Nearly 200,000 and counting of her constituents want her removed from office.
 
910A
Posts: 1883
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:11 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:19 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
stlgph wrote:
I wonder where Gretchen Whitmer is on the list.


Yes, she's been making quite a name for herself these past few days. But not for good reasons. Nearly 200,000 and counting of her constituents want her removed from office.


I doubt having a virtual petition on Change.org is anything to be concern about since proving all these virtual signatures are legal voters in Michigan would be impossible. Radio station WWJ reports that the rhetoric is similar to that of a Facebook group called Michiganders Against Excessive Quarantine, which garnered 258,000 members in just a few days. https://wwjnewsradio.radio.com/articles ... en-whitmer

An actual petition to recall the governor would require language approved by the state board of canvassers for circulation and signatures of well over 700,000 registered Michigan voters to appear on the ballot.

Back to the topic, Kamala Harris will be the pick as she checks off two squares; woman and a minority. A debate between her and Pence would be fun television.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2665
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:29 am

910A wrote:

I doubt having a virtual petition on Change.org is anything to be concern about since proving all these virtual signatures are legal voters in Michigan and radio station WWJ reports the signatures appear to be Trump supporters...Just for the record an actual petition to recall the governor would require language approved by the state board of canvassers for circulation and signatures of well over 700,000 registered Michigan voters to appear on the ballot.


An American car raced a Soviet car and won. Soviet headline reads "Heroic Soviet car almost won, desperate American spent whole race trying not to lose..."

I think of that almost every I see some half-baked non-story like that.

910A wrote:

Meanwhile, I predict it's going to be Kamala Harris..a debate between her and Pence would be great television.


I do not think I would mind that. And she would destroy that guy in a debate, no doubt.

But she also has a high level of controversy that she does not add enough to overcome. It will be either Warren or Abrams. Abrams has enough popularity and delivers a decently populated state that is not yet a lock. Warren has a lot of progressive cred while still being appealing to a lot of centrists. There may be other possibilities, but it will be a woman and it will not be any of the other also-rans as the balance of those were too noisy or useless for what they could conceivably add.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
User avatar
WarRI1
Posts: 14122
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:17 am

We must not be hasty, remember Sarah Palin. and Geraldine Ferraro and even Hillary, as my wife always has said, never trust a woman to support another woman. :duck:
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2519
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:46 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
910A wrote:

I doubt having a virtual petition on Change.org is anything to be concern about since proving all these virtual signatures are legal voters in Michigan and radio station WWJ reports the signatures appear to be Trump supporters...Just for the record an actual petition to recall the governor would require language approved by the state board of canvassers for circulation and signatures of well over 700,000 registered Michigan voters to appear on the ballot.


An American car raced a Soviet car and won. Soviet headline reads "Heroic Soviet car almost won, desperate American spent whole race trying not to lose..."

I think of that almost every I see some half-baked non-story like that.

910A wrote:


Meanwhile, I predict it's going to be Kamala Harris..a debate between her and Pence would be great television.


I do not think I would mind that. And she would destroy that guy in a debate, no doubt.

But she also has a high level of controversy that she does not add enough to overcome. It will be either Warren or Abrams. Abrams has enough popularity and delivers a decently populated state that is not yet a lock. Warren has a lot of progressive cred while still being appealing to a lot of centrists. There may be other possibilities, but it will be a woman and it will not be any of the other also-rans as the balance of those were too noisy or useless for what they could conceivably add.


How can Abrams flip a red state for the Democrats when she didn't even win it?
 
alfa164
Posts: 3613
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:51 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
How can Abrams flip a red state for the Democrats when she didn't even win it?


Did you miss the results of the Wisconsin Supreme Court election?

"These times, they are a-changin'..."

But I am betting on Whitmer.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
apodino
Posts: 3925
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:00 am

Wall Street (who Biden is having many conversations with about this choice) is never going to allow Joe Biden to pick Warren so we can throw that out right now. The other choices right now are Gretchen Whitmer, Kamala Harris, Stacey Abrams, Amy Klobuchar, Michelle Obama, Catherine Cortez-Masto, Tammy Duckworth, Michelle Lujan-Grisham, and Val Demings. So here is what I see. Duckworth, Harris and Klobuchar offer nothing to Biden as their states are probably Blue and they are not going to excite anyone or bring new people into the process. Val Demings is a little known Congresswoman from Florida, which could help in that swing state but name recognition is an issue. Cortez-Masto and Lujan-Grisham are both Latino, Cortez-Masto from a swing state that was hit hard by Covid-19. New Mexico is also a swing state, but it is more solidly blue now than it has been. The Name Recognition is an issue for both. Obama would be the dream of most Democrats as she has name recognition, but I don't think she will do it, and aside from exciting some Obama voters doesn't really add much either.

I think Gretchen Whitmer is the favorite right now. She is a very visible governor of a Swing State and has been one of the governors on the front lines handling this thing very well. And Biden knows that he needs MI, unlike Hillary four years ago who took it for granted. The only possible issue I see with Whitmer is there is rumors of a recall petition circling MI to try to force a recall election. I am not sure what the basis is for the recall, but if it turns out to be a nothing burger Whitmer will be fine. I still think Whitmer would be the wise choice for Biden.

One other Dark Horse name I will throw out is Gina Raimondo, the Governor of Rhode Island. She is one of the Governors receiving the utmost praise for her handing of Covid-19. But like some of the other ladies, her issue is she is from Deep Blue Rhode Island, and having an all Acela Corridor ticket may not play well in swing states.
 
afcjets
Posts: 3501
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:40 am

Michelle or Hillary. Not my choice but the DNC's choice IMO.
Last edited by afcjets on Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 2462
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:58 am

afcjets wrote:
Michelle

X factor, ill give you that. Boy would that be a game-changer in the VP debate. I would pay to watch that.
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 8474
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:03 am

apodino wrote:
The only possible issue I see with Whitmer is there is rumors of a recall petition circling MI to try to force a recall election. I am not sure what the basis is for the recall, but if it turns out to be a nothing burger Whitmer will be fine. I still think Whitmer would be the wise choice for Biden.

The petition is in Change.org, which is not an official way to recall elected officials at any level. When you look at the reasoning, it's people throwing a tantrum because they can't do what they please (in other words, they don't like the "stay at home" order, while also faulting her for the deaths in the state). So they're pissed about not going anywhere because the governor is doing something, but they're also blaming the governor for not doing enough.

I'd be curious for Morning Consult to publish their governor approval ratings and see where she stands.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2519
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:37 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
apodino wrote:
The only possible issue I see with Whitmer is there is rumors of a recall petition circling MI to try to force a recall election. I am not sure what the basis is for the recall, but if it turns out to be a nothing burger Whitmer will be fine. I still think Whitmer would be the wise choice for Biden.

The petition is in Change.org, which is not an official way to recall elected officials at any level. When you look at the reasoning, it's people throwing a tantrum because they can't do what they please (in other words, they don't like the "stay at home" order, while also faulting her for the deaths in the state). So they're pissed about not going anywhere because the governor is doing something, but they're also blaming the governor for not doing enough.

I'd be curious for Morning Consult to publish their governor approval ratings and see where she stands.


No, she has gone way overboard with the restrictions. Not even NY has done what she did.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 7280
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:18 am

Plot twist, Biden chooses Barack.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
User avatar
lugie
Posts: 882
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:11 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:32 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
No, she has gone way overboard with the restrictions. Not even NY has done what she did.

And look how many more people have died in NY compared to Michigan - seems like she's done something right.

Also, 200,000 people in a state the size of Michigan is not a lot. Whitmer won the 2018 election by a margin nearly twice as big.

And that is implying that all those who "signed" are actual Michiganders which, given that it's a Change.org petition, they near certainly are not.


TTailedTiger wrote:
How can Abrams flip a red state for the Democrats when she didn't even win it?


Who knows, maybe if the GA Republicans aren't able to rig the election this time (unlike that gubernatorial election where Abrams' opponent purged a couple hundred thousand voters from the voter rolls weeks before election day) the true will of the people of Georgia will be heard and she might just flip the state...
Q400 E175 E190 CRJ7 CRJ9 CRJX MD88 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A359 B733 B73G B738 B739 B748 B764 B772 B77W B788 B789
FRA STR HAM TXL MUC ZRH ACE BRU BLL DUB MAN ARN MAD OPO LIS FNC AMS PHL RDU LGA CLT EWR ORD ATL SFO MDW IAD YYZ SJO PTY
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 13137
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:40 am

If enough people assume Biden wouldn't last, and I can see the GOP running ads about that, then shouldn't the running mate be "Biden bis" ?

I mean, usually the VP has not much role in government, so people might vote for their preferred president regardless of who the VP is, but now if you're voting while thinking the VP will soon be the president, well, going from Biden to a black woman might be a little more difficult for a lot of US citizens...

Unless maybe if her last name was Obama, but that brings other issues.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
afcjets
Posts: 3501
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:33 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Plot twist, Biden chooses Barack.


Yes, but via Michelle. She has no interest but he does. With Joe possibly not being able to complete or even start his term, and with the country in a crisis, people want stability so a previous President, especially one who is young and healthy, is the best match for an incumbent.
 
afcjets
Posts: 3501
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:37 pm

Another reason I think Hillary or Michelle might be the pick is perhaps this country is not really ready for a female president, especially at a time like this. Unless it's a former first lady, where her husband is alive and well and close by.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 13473
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:36 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
910A wrote:

I doubt having a virtual petition on Change.org is anything to be concern about since proving all these virtual signatures are legal voters in Michigan and radio station WWJ reports the signatures appear to be Trump supporters...Just for the record an actual petition to recall the governor would require language approved by the state board of canvassers for circulation and signatures of well over 700,000 registered Michigan voters to appear on the ballot.


An American car raced a Soviet car and won. Soviet headline reads "Heroic Soviet car almost won, desperate American spent whole race trying not to lose..."

I think of that almost every I see some half-baked non-story like that.

910A wrote:


Meanwhile, I predict it's going to be Kamala Harris..a debate between her and Pence would be great television.


I do not think I would mind that. And she would destroy that guy in a debate, no doubt.

But she also has a high level of controversy that she does not add enough to overcome. It will be either Warren or Abrams. Abrams has enough popularity and delivers a decently populated state that is not yet a lock. Warren has a lot of progressive cred while still being appealing to a lot of centrists. There may be other possibilities, but it will be a woman and it will not be any of the other also-rans as the balance of those were too noisy or useless for what they could conceivably add.


How can Abrams flip a red state for the Democrats when she didn't even win it?


She can't. Her name is constantly rammed down our throats because a bunch of people think she was robbed in her election (pure nonsense) and now they want her on a national level. She is too divisive and the black caucus feels Biden owes them so we will continue to hear her name floated until Biden picks someone else.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2665
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:14 pm

apodino wrote:

I think Gretchen Whitmer is the favorite right now. She is a very visible governor of a Swing State and has been one of the governors on the front lines handling this thing very well. And Biden knows that he needs MI, unlike Hillary four years ago who took it for granted. The only possible issue I see with Whitmer is there is rumors of a recall petition circling MI to try to force a recall election. I am not sure what the basis is for the recall, but if it turns out to be a nothing burger Whitmer will be fine. I still think Whitmer would be the wise choice for Biden.


I think something that would also really help, coming from her, is that she has a lot to offer WRT the #metoo crowd. Being one of the largest blocs of female voters and the fact that her experiences with the issue resonate with professional class women is not something to be trifled with.

Fortunately, the recall petition is not actually a real thing. It does resonate with a bunch of dumb misogynists, but those dog whistle types really do not vote anyway and no one else takes their thoughts seriously.

apodino wrote:
One other Dark Horse name I will throw out is Gina Raimondo, the Governor of Rhode Island. She is one of the Governors receiving the utmost praise for her handing of Covid-19. But like some of the other ladies, her issue is she is from Deep Blue Rhode Island, and having an all Acela Corridor ticket may not play well in swing states.


Hmmm... I do not think even being form the NE is a problem here. It is one of the two largest voting concentrations in the US, so it is hardly worthless. But for Raimondo, I think the big issue would be the door-to-door response WRT NYers in RI during this crisis. While we all know the hystrionics behind that are vastly overstated, it is something that could be a turn off to neighboring NYC, and as valuable as that is to the DNC —and by extension the US— that probably is a liabiility.


NIKV69 wrote:
She can't. Her name is constantly rammed down our throats because a bunch of people think she was robbed in her election (pure nonsense) and now they want her on a national level. She is too divisive and the black caucus feels Biden owes them so we will continue to hear her name floated until Biden picks someone else.



Yawn. But hey, maybe you can give us a preview of next week's episode of David Duke's thoughts on the matter while you are here?

afcjets wrote:
Another reason I think Hillary or Michelle might be the pick is perhaps this country is not really ready for a female president, especially at a time like this. Unless it's a former first lady, where her husband is alive and well and close by.


Hmmm... Much as I would instinctively like to dismiss that, I have to admit that that is just barely on the possibility of reasoning when it comes to some voters...

lugie wrote:
And look how many more people have died in NY compared to Michigan - seems like she's done something right.

Also, 200,000 people in a state the size of Michigan is not a lot. Whitmer won the 2018 election by a margin nearly twice as big.

And that is implying that all those who "signed" are actual Michiganders which, given that it's a Change.org petition, they near certainly are not.


Not only that, but even if those '200,000' were Michiganders —and I agree that they are likely not— none were people who voted for her in '18 anyway. They could not matter less if they tried.

lugie wrote:
Who knows, maybe if the GA Republicans aren't able to rig the election this time (unlike that gubernatorial election where Abrams' opponent purged a couple hundred thousand voters from the voter rolls weeks before election day) the true will of the people of Georgia will be heard and she might just flip the state...


Not only this, but as usual, MAGA types simply inject their fantasies in place of data. GA has never been reliably red anyway. Hardly surprising when we realize how much of that state is urbanized.

I do agree that there are other good choices for a VP pick, but Abrams would certainly not be any kind of liability, and would deliver votes.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
NIKV69
Posts: 13473
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:24 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:


Yawn. But hey, maybe you can give us a preview of next week's episode of David Duke's thoughts on the matter while you are here?



You can retire the "you don't like a black candidate so of course you are a member of the KKK". It's so old and such a lame excuse as to why you lame candidate didn't win and won't be the VP pick but don't let facts get in the way of a good baseless smear. :sarcastic:
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
PixelPilot
Topic Author
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:19 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:25 pm

Media might be quiet but this won't go away.
DNC can't be banking on this guy. There's no way.
https://www.foxnews.com/media/cnn-biden ... tara-reade
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8350
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:23 pm

Next four years aren't going to be pretty, doesn't matter who is President/Vice. I think Sanders saw the writing on the wall an dropped out.

IMHO, Whitmer better skip this time, work hard as Governor and built up the reputation, still is still rough on edges. Also why make herself a target of Trump's name calling and it will be rough ride on Joe's foobar express.
All posts are just opinions.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22522
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:03 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:

An American car raced a Soviet car and won. Soviet headline reads "Heroic Soviet car almost won, desperate American spent whole race trying not to lose..."

I think of that almost every I see some half-baked non-story like that.



I do not think I would mind that. And she would destroy that guy in a debate, no doubt.

But she also has a high level of controversy that she does not add enough to overcome. It will be either Warren or Abrams. Abrams has enough popularity and delivers a decently populated state that is not yet a lock. Warren has a lot of progressive cred while still being appealing to a lot of centrists. There may be other possibilities, but it will be a woman and it will not be any of the other also-rans as the balance of those were too noisy or useless for what they could conceivably add.


How can Abrams flip a red state for the Democrats when she didn't even win it?


She can't. Her name is constantly rammed down our throats because a bunch of people think she was robbed in her election (pure nonsense) and now they want her on a national level. She is too divisive and the black caucus feels Biden owes them so we will continue to hear her name floated until Biden picks someone else.


Abrams' opponent was the person who made the voting rules and counted the votes. I bet you also put a wolf in charge of the hen house and blame the hens for being attacked?

Literally no presidential or VP choice would be good enough for MAGA members. None. Even Jesus Christ himself would be attacked. Why? Simple: He would have a (D) behind his name. That is the only reason. 40 years of Republican state media gave us this.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:25 pm

Hasn't Michelle Obama, numerous times, stated she has absolutely no interest in the WH?

And Barack Obama can't be VP because there is a chance he'd be President for more than 10 years. If he was to somehow insert himself in the last 2 years, it'd be legal.

Really, the only way for someone to be President for more than 10 years is for them to be VP then become president in the last 2 (but not greater than 2) years and then win two 4 year terms

(At least that's my understanding of it)
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 3810
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:27 pm

afcjets wrote:
Michelle or Hillary. Not my choice but the DNC's choice IMO.

Michelle has no qualifications, has never held office of any kind. Just because she is married to a politician doesn't mean she'd make a good one. Would Jackie Kennedy or Laura Bush have made a good choice for VP?
Hillary? Are you kidding me? Is there a more toxic figure in the Democratic party than her? Good Lord, she pulled defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016. If there was ever a slam-dunk it would have been running against Trump and she blew it because more people would have rather not voted at all than vote for her. Zero chance Biden picks her.
 
apodino
Posts: 3925
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:59 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:

An American car raced a Soviet car and won. Soviet headline reads "Heroic Soviet car almost won, desperate American spent whole race trying not to lose..."

I think of that almost every I see some half-baked non-story like that.



I do not think I would mind that. And she would destroy that guy in a debate, no doubt.

But she also has a high level of controversy that she does not add enough to overcome. It will be either Warren or Abrams. Abrams has enough popularity and delivers a decently populated state that is not yet a lock. Warren has a lot of progressive cred while still being appealing to a lot of centrists. There may be other possibilities, but it will be a woman and it will not be any of the other also-rans as the balance of those were too noisy or useless for what they could conceivably add.


How can Abrams flip a red state for the Democrats when she didn't even win it?


She can't. Her name is constantly rammed down our throats because a bunch of people think she was robbed in her election (pure nonsense) and now they want her on a national level. She is too divisive and the black caucus feels Biden owes them so we will continue to hear her name floated until Biden picks someone else.

This is ridiculous. Brian Kemp was the Secretary of State who oversaw the Governors race that he was a candidate in, and a lot of things happened in that race that would make me question whether or not the election was legit. The only reason people see her as divisive is because to this date she has not conceded the GA race. I get that, but there are times when you have to take your medicine and move on.

One thought I just had that could help Abrams chances. There is a Senate Race on the GA ballot this year, which is to fill the rest of the term of the Senate Seat vacated by Johnny Isakson that is now held by Kelly Loeffler. IMO, Kelly Loeffler is among the most vulnerable senators up for reelection as she has taken a considerable beating (and rightly so) in the press over the stock sales right before the Market Crash caused by Covid-19. If Abrams is on the ticket, a lot of Georgia voters who supported her will easily get fired up and it will help the Democrat in that race. However, since there is no primary and the election is basically a Louisiana style race in which all candidates are on the ballot and a runoff occurs, the Democrat may not be helped that much. In fact, polling is indicated that another republican in the race, Doug Collins is more likely to win the seat out right than Loeffler, and Loeffler may not even make it to the runoff, which if polling is to be believed, would be between Collins and Democrat Raphael Warnock. Still, Democrat turnout could be enough to ensure a Democrat makes it into the runoff election.

Whitmer to me still seems more likely. But Abrams is a possibility as well.
 
bmartino99
Posts: 87
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 7:57 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:02 pm

seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

How can Abrams flip a red state for the Democrats when she didn't even win it?


She can't. Her name is constantly rammed down our throats because a bunch of people think she was robbed in her election (pure nonsense) and now they want her on a national level. She is too divisive and the black caucus feels Biden owes them so we will continue to hear her name floated until Biden picks someone else.


Abrams' opponent was the person who made the voting rules and counted the votes. I bet you also put a wolf in charge of the hen house and blame the hens for being attacked?

Literally no presidential or VP choice would be good enough for MAGA members. None. Even Jesus Christ himself would be attacked. Why? Simple: He would have a (D) behind his name. That is the only reason. 40 years of Republican state media gave us this.



Well not technically true. Gabbard has demonstrated support from MAGA members, probably enough to pry some former Ron Paul followers who held their nose for Trump back in 2016.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2665
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:18 pm

ER757 wrote:
Hillary? Are you kidding me? Is there a more toxic figure in the Democratic party than her? Good Lord, she pulled defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016. If there was ever a slam-dunk it would have been running against Trump and she blew it because more people would have rather not voted at all than vote for her. Zero chance Biden picks her.



Hillary probably would win this time. America really does want trump gone, that badly, in no unspecific terms. Having that been said, I also do not believe she would be picked for a VP slot. I also think she will not be asked to serve in any Cabinet position either. The Biden Administration will understand the level of animosity much of the country still maintains for her.

seb146 wrote:
Literally no presidential or VP choice would be good enough for MAGA members. None. Even Jesus Christ himself would be attacked. Why? Simple: He would have a (D) behind his name. That is the only reason. 40 years of Republican state media gave us this.


Also, once they find out that he is not white this would also be a complete non-starter. God herself would make it clear that 'hey guys, yeah, this is really Jesus,' and they would immediately start bleating on about fake news or something...


NIKV69 wrote:
You can retire the "you don't like a black candidate so of course you are a member of the KKK". It's so old and such a lame excuse as to why you lame candidate didn't win and won't be the VP pick but don't let facts get in the way of a good baseless smear. :sarcastic:


Of course. It was for some completely non racist/misogynistic reason you just hastily invented a load of non-factual gibberish about a Black Woman, was it? Seems legit...

Much like you zeroing right in on a bullet you are obviously insecure about. Any other points you care to make for me?

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Hasn't Michelle Obama, numerous times, stated she has absolutely no interest in the WH?


Numerous, yes.

DeltaMD90 wrote:
And Barack Obama can't be VP because there is a chance he'd be President for more than 10 years. If he was to somehow insert himself in the last 2 years, it'd be legal.

Really, the only way for someone to be President for more than 10 years is for them to be VP then become president in the last 2 (but not greater than 2) years and then win two 4 year terms


Makes the assumption that Obama would go from VP to P and just... stay there? He gets two more years. That would more than enough time for appoint an appropriate successor. And stay w/in the established limits. There is a legal mechanism to ensure that.

But I do not see that as being something the Biden Administration will reach for. What would be more likely is the possibility/probability of his being seated on the Supreme Court. There are two judgeships —likely— for Biden to appoint there.

apodino wrote:
The only reason people see her as divisive is because to this date she has not conceded the GA race. I get that, but there are times when you have to take your medicine and move on.


It is a formality, but it would not be illogical to assume a concession —and associated exposition on the issue— would be conditional to the Appointment.

If anything, this may bring more attention to the extreme irregularities in that election, something that would bring more Democrats out.


apodino wrote:
Whitmer to me still seems more likely. But Abrams is a possibility as well.


I like Whitmer the more I hear about her. And her handling of the present crisis will definitely help her odds. I do feel like she may have a touch of appropriation issues to smooth out —it is actually a very complex issues that feminism and racial harmony bring into focus here. But nothing that should be a show stopper. Or convince a person to look at trump seriously.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:11 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Makes the assumption that Obama would go from VP to P and just... stay there? He gets two more years. That would more than enough time for appoint an appropriate successor. And stay w/in the established limits. There is a legal mechanism to ensure that..

Is there though? My understanding was he wouldn't be eligible for VP at all if his time could go over 10 years, even if he'd be happy to give it up at 10 years.

Granted I think I learned all this decades ago, literally, in elementary school.

It'd be kind of a weird dynamic, and I'm sure the GOP would go nuts claiming conspiracy theories of him being the next Putin and all, but I think they'd have a good shot of winning.

I don't share your same optimism about Trump definitely losing this time around... People were beyond sure in 2016 and I was pretty sure but also a bit nervous and skeptical. Everything, IMO, points to Trump losing in 2020, but I'm still not discounting anything...
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22522
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:23 pm

I see the argument of "Michelle Obama can NOT be VP because she has zero qualifications!" from the MAGA cult. My response to this is to look no farther than your own leader. He had ZERO qualifications and here we are.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
alfa164
Posts: 3613
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:36 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Makes the assumption that Obama would go from VP to P and just... stay there? He gets two more years. That would more than enough time for appoint an appropriate successor. And stay w/in the established limits. There is a legal mechanism to ensure that..


Whether he is eligible to run as a VP candidate is a Constitutional question that has been discussed by legal scholars ad infinitum. For starters, the 22nd Amendment to the Constitution says:

"No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once."

That seems to be loophole; he would not be elected to the office of President, but to the office of Vice President. So far, so good - but the 12th Amendment reads:

“...no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.”

The real legal issue - and it would have to be eventually sorted-out by the Courts - is whether "...constitutionally ineligible to the office of the President.." means ineligible to run for that office, or ineligible to serve in that office.


My specialty is not Constitutional Law, but my reading says that Obama would be eligible to run. Knowing this would, sooner or later, wind up all the way in the Supreme Court, and knowing the extremely political make-up of that court today, I would have to say.... all bets are off.


DarkSnowyNight wrote:
That would more than enough time for appoint an appropriate successor. And stay w/in the established limits. There is a legal mechanism to ensure that..



He wouldn't - and probably couldn't - name a successor. The Constitution takes care of that, too: the Speaker of the House is next in line. After two years of another Obama presidency, if that were to happen, you could very well be greeting "President Pelosi".
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2665
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:12 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Is there though? My understanding was he wouldn't be eligible for VP at all if his time could go over 10 years, even if he'd be happy to give it up at 10 years.


If there was not, he would not be chosen by the DNC for the posting. I do not think that will happen anyway though, for previously mentioned reasons.

DeltaMD90 wrote:
I don't share your same optimism about Trump definitely losing this time around... People were beyond sure in 2016 and I was pretty sure but also a bit nervous and skeptical. Everything, IMO, points to Trump losing in 2020, but I'm still not discounting anything...


Cheer up.

The GOP has nothing on Biden that is not ten times worse for trump. That alone wipes out any possibility of swing votes headed in that direction. Add in that we know what trrump's interpretation of an administration looks like, and the lack of support in the states that made 2016 possible, and you would have a very tough case to make for 45 there.

As well, keep in mind that 2018 was between then and now too. The MAGAs sure do love their echo chambers. Almost as much as they hate facts and educated people. But do not let the noise fool you.

The only way trump would have a realistic chance would be to make a play toward the middle, since the overwhelming majority of Americans consider MAGAs to be somewhere between a liability and an outright enemy of the people. What do you think the odds of trump going in for a market that is not set to auto-fellatio mode is? They are not trying to find ways to keep voters home for their health...



alfa164 wrote:
Whether he is eligible to run as a VP candidate is a Constitutional question that has been discussed by legal scholars ad infinitum. For starters, the 22nd Amendment to the Constitution says:

"No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once."

That seems to be loophole; he would not be elected to the office of President, but to the office of Vice President. So far, so good - but the 12th Amendment reads:

“...no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.”

The real legal issue - and it would have to be eventually sorted-out by the Courts - is whether "...constitutionally ineligible to the office of the President.." means ineligible to run for that office, or ineligible to serve in that office.


My specialty is not Constitutional Law, but my reading says that Obama would be eligible to run. Knowing this would, sooner or later, wind up all the way in the Supreme Court, and knowing the extremely political make-up of that court today, I would have to say.... all bets are off.


Interesting stuff. Thanks!

alfa164 wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
That would more than enough time for appoint an appropriate successor. And stay w/in the established limits. There is a legal mechanism to ensure that..



He wouldn't - and probably couldn't - name a successor. The Constitution takes care of that, too: the Speaker of the House is next in line. After two years of another Obama presidency, if that were to happen, you could very well be greeting "President Pelosi".


Word fail. My meaning was more along the lines of start the process than name a personal pick.

It is an interesting thought exercise, but if I were Biden, I can think of a large number of better places to put Obama, where the country is concerned...


**Edited by 777ER (Head Forum Moderator) to remove a reference post which was deleted**
Last edited by 777ER on Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed a reference post
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
afcjets
Posts: 3501
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:12 pm

ER757 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
Michelle or Hillary. Not my choice but the DNC's choice IMO.

Michelle has no qualifications, has never held office of any kind. Just because she is married to a politician doesn't mean she'd make a good one. Would Jackie Kennedy or Laura Bush have made a good choice for VP?
Hillary? Are you kidding me? Is there a more toxic figure in the Democratic party than her? Good Lord, she pulled defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016. If there was ever a slam-dunk it would have been running against Trump and she blew it because more people would have rather not voted at all than vote for her. Zero chance Biden picks her.


I agree with everything you said except I think Trump would have beaten anyone in 2016. He beat her in a landslide.
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 8474
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:13 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
And Barack Obama can't be VP because there is a chance he'd be President for more than 10 years. If he was to somehow insert himself in the last 2 years, it'd be legal.

Really, the only way for someone to be President for more than 10 years is for them to be VP then become president in the last 2 (but not greater than 2) years and then win two 4 year terms

(At least that's my understanding of it)

He could be. The answer is not yet proven; if you're a literalist, you'll have trouble navigating the answer because of the ambiguity.

There are three items that determine who is eligible:

1. Article II states the 3 principal criteria:
-Be 35yo by the time of inauguration
-Be a natural born citizen
-Have resided under US jurisdiction for 14 years prior to the election.

2. The 12th Amendment states that anyone constitutionally ineligible to the office of president shall also be ineligible for that of vice-president.

3. The 22nd amendment limits election of a person as president for two terms (or one if they served more than half of a president's term).

Article II is straightforward and not the source of conflict. It's the 12th and 22nd Amendments. Walking it through step by step, this is the interpretation:
The 12th Amendment (when passed) says anyone who did not meet any of the three criteria of Article II could not serve as VP either. The 22nd Amendment adds one condition, though it's doesn't modify Article II. Had the amendment explicitly called out Article II and said that the 4th condition was to not have served more than 6 years as president, this discussion would be over, because the 12th Amendment would still cover both offices.

Since the 22nd Amendment says that a person cannot be elected to the office of president (but says nothing about vice president), the literal meaning is that a former president CAN serve as vice president since they're not barred from being elected as such.

Collectively, though, we all interpret it as one big mix (a poorly worded amendment meant to also restrict former presidents from serving as VPs). It hasn't been tested, but it may be something that a Constitutional committee, with the blessing of the Supreme Court, can provide an answer to, rather than wait for a constitutional crisis to emerge.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 11559
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:27 pm

Biden will select a person of diversity that can help him win Pennsylvania, Michigan, Florida, and Wisconsin. I would think Tammy Duckworth would be appealing due to her service and recognition of veterans. but Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer may be the ticket needed for Unions.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
apodino
Posts: 3925
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:39 pm

casinterest wrote:
Biden will select a person of diversity that can help him win Pennsylvania, Michigan, Florida, and Wisconsin. I would think Tammy Duckworth would be appealing due to her service and recognition of veterans. but Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer may be the ticket needed for Unions.

Whitmer is about the only candidate out there who would help him with the Rust Belt, (Other than possibly Tammy Baldwin, which I will throw out as a Darkhorse name) which is where this election will be won.

Tammy Duckworth would bring nothing for Biden. That being said, as a veteran I think Duckworth would be an excellent choice for Defense Secretary in a Biden Administration. But knowing Biden, he will appoint someone from the Military Industrial Complex for the job.
Last edited by apodino on Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
apodino
Posts: 3925
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:45 pm

afcjets wrote:
ER757 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
Michelle or Hillary. Not my choice but the DNC's choice IMO.

Michelle has no qualifications, has never held office of any kind. Just because she is married to a politician doesn't mean she'd make a good one. Would Jackie Kennedy or Laura Bush have made a good choice for VP?
Hillary? Are you kidding me? Is there a more toxic figure in the Democratic party than her? Good Lord, she pulled defeat from the jaws of victory in 2016. If there was ever a slam-dunk it would have been running against Trump and she blew it because more people would have rather not voted at all than vote for her. Zero chance Biden picks her.


I agree with everything you said except I think Trump would have beaten anyone in 2016. He beat her in a landslide.

No way. Hillary was the only person who could possibly lose to Trump. Had Biden ran in 2016, he would have won in a landslide. If Bernie was nominated, he would have won. If Elizabeth Warren had run and won the nomination, she would have won.

One advantage Biden has that Hillary doesn't is Biden is a much more likeable figure than Hillary was. But something seems wrong with Biden. He doesn't make sense when he talks, he has no real positions, he doesn't stand for anything, he looks like he has some sort of memory problem, and he just looks like he has no energy. If the Tara Reade allegations ever pan out, he will have major problems as well. And Bernie supporters are already furious, and even his own staffers are angry at Bernie. Plus you have a lot of key progressive bloggers and web hosts who are already saying they will stay home before they vote for Biden.

Hillary wont be the pick, and if the convention actually happens at Fiserv Forum rather than virtually, I doubt she will speak either.
 
afcjets
Posts: 3501
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:28 am

apodino wrote:
Whitmer is about the only candidate out there who would help him with the Rust Belt, (Other than possibly Tammy Baldwin, which I will throw out as a Darkhorse name) which is where this election will be won.

I doubt she could carry her own state right now. I think Trump wrapped up a Michigan win yesterday precisely because of her. The media took the bait and cried outrage over Trump saying he has the power to force states to open. That was meant for her and the people of Michigan breathed a huge sigh of relief.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3613
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: VP Choice for the democratic party.

Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:53 am

afcjets wrote:
apodino wrote:
Whitmer is about the only candidate out there who would help him with the Rust Belt, (Other than possibly Tammy Baldwin, which I will throw out as a Darkhorse name) which is where this election will be won.

I doubt she could carry her own state right now. I think Trump wrapped up a Michigan win yesterday precisely because of her. The media took the bait and cried outrage over Trump saying he has the power to force states to open. That was meant for her and the people of Michigan breathed a huge sigh of relief.


I would take that bet. Sure, there are some protests - and a petition - decrying her decision to cut down on shopping trips, and trying to curb the spread of the Covid-19 outbreak (which is currently concentrated in the Detroit area), but much of that has been funded by the DeVos family-funded Michigan Freedom Fund and the self-proclaimed Michigan Conservative Coalition - groups that would have never supported her anyway. (And, speaking of DeVos... imagine the outrage if some group funded by an Obama cabinet-member had stirred a similar political ruckus in the middle of a pandemic...). People who haven't felt or seen much infection around them don't grasp why - or are being encouraged not to try to understand why - isolation measures are necessary.

There has always been some conflict between the more urban and suburban areas of Michigan and the rural counties; this is just another manifestation of that. And to put it in another perspective, the state's Attorney General, Dana Nessel (D), tweeted:

"I just can't hear about one more black health care worker, police officer or bus driver die while getting a barrage of complaints from white folks outraged because they can't go golfing."

It is a difference in perspective..... and when this is all over, I'll bet Whitmer is the hero. Or heroine. Or, perhaps, Vice-President.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], nwadeicer, phatfarmlines, TTailedTiger, TWA772LR, winginit and 46 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos