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traindoc
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When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:04 am

Thought I saw a headline somewhere that Europe would not be open for tourism until the fall. Your thoughts?
 
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BasilFawlty
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:29 am

For travellers from inside Europe? Hopefully as soon as possible.
For travellers from outside Europe? Hopefully never.
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phxa340
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:38 am

BasilFawlty wrote:
For travellers from inside Europe? Hopefully as soon as possible.
For travellers from outside Europe? Hopefully never.


Um, if your European then what a short sided comment. Does Europe , especially Greece and Spain, not need tourism revenue ?
 
AA747123
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:59 am

I personally think the borders will remain closed as they are now for a minimum of another 12-18 months. Its not just Europe closed to USA visitors, its a two way street. In 18 months they will partially reopen, but significant restrictions will remain in place. If you are looking for life the way it was a year ago, its never coming back.
 
continental004
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:24 am

AA747123 wrote:
I personally think the borders will remain closed as they are now for a minimum of another 12-18 months. Its not just Europe closed to USA visitors, its a two way street. In 18 months they will partially reopen, but significant restrictions will remain in place. If you are looking for life the way it was a year ago, its never coming back.


Alarmist. I think the borders will be open as normal in five, six months from now.

BasilFawlty wrote:
For travellers from inside Europe? Hopefully as soon as possible.
For travellers from outside Europe? Hopefully never.


Somebody is salty.
 
dobilan
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:41 am

Probably one year till back to normal for EU-US/Canada and maybe EU-Russia relation tourism. Probably not so soon (5-8years) for EU-Asia and EU-rest of the world. Anyway, until fuil economic recovery people will have more important stuff to do than international tourism. BTW, any opinion if firms like Uber or Airbnb wil survive this?
 
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stl07
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:19 am

BasilFawlty wrote:
For travellers from inside Europe? Hopefully as soon as possible.
For travellers from outside Europe? Hopefully never.

Ready to lose your job, and see the markets tank in your continent? We non-Europeans pumping in money is the reason why some of Europe's countries have not collapsed economically yet. Just one airline collapse caused so much turmoil in Iceland because we were their only source of money. I can only imagine what would happen if it all stopped all over Europe.
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jpetekyxmd80
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:35 am

AA747123 wrote:
I personally think the borders will remain closed as they are now for a minimum of another 12-18 months. Its not just Europe closed to USA visitors, its a two way street. In 18 months they will partially reopen, but significant restrictions will remain in place. If you are looking for life the way it was a year ago, its never coming back.


That's ridiculous
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seahawk
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:15 am

Most likely not before a vaccine is widely available and the population has been vaccinated. Until then there will be restrictions. And even if they allow you in, who would do it, if it means 2 weeks of quarantine when you return home.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:41 am

jpetekyxmd80 wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
I personally think the borders will remain closed as they are now for a minimum of another 12-18 months. Its not just Europe closed to USA visitors, its a two way street. In 18 months they will partially reopen, but significant restrictions will remain in place. If you are looking for life the way it was a year ago, its never coming back.


That's ridiculous


No it isn't, Spain talks about keeping it's borders closed for the upcoming summer season. Indeed, until a vaccine comes online we will keep this lock-down or at least an intelligent lock-down.

Tourism is especially non-essential thingy.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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SASViking
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:58 am

I don't think it's possible to say when all of Europe re-opens. With so many different countries and governments it's impossible.
However I do think that Europe will re-open in stages, some countries are already opening up again these will definitely open their borders sooner rather than later.

My guesses are Mid-June as the latest for countries currently reopening, and early-August for countries like the UK, Italy, France, Spain etc.
The economy can't cope with a complete closure during the busiest time a year for tourists
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seahawk
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:01 am

The summer tourist season is mostly done already.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:05 am

It's hard to imagine the summer season 2020 going ahead in Europe as usual, with millions literally crammed on beaches & airports from Canary Islands to Rhodos, without terrible human and material loses in fall/winter 2020/21.
 
marcelh
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:23 am

SASViking wrote:
The economy can't cope with a complete closure during the busiest time a year for tourists

Uncontrollable spreading the virus won’t be beneficial for the economy either.... As long there is no vaccin, people won’t be allowed for non-essential cross-border travelling.
 
LOT767301ER
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:52 am

Uncontrollable spreading the virus won’t be beneficial for the economy either.... As long there is no vaccin, people won’t be allowed for non-essential cross-border travelling.


Question - What if no vaccine is ever found? What about H1N1 11 years ago? 60 million Americans infected, tens of thousands dead and is now circulating as part of the regular flu regimen.

Do you read what you type before you post or...?
 
M564038
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:00 am

I think this is a pretty good analysis. Partial regional reopening for the summer seasons (late june in northern europe, later in central and southern europe). The real spread in comunities will be extremely low by then if the current good advice is followed, and people is getting shocked in to following them right now.
Desinfectants, water and soap, keeping spread out as far as possible and being very careful in general is going to be the name of the game, but there is going to be some summer travel this year.

Large cultural events aren’t coming back until next year.


People talking about 12-18 months before travel returns are kidding themselves, although some countries will have a lot of society to rebuild.

SASViking wrote:
I don't think it's possible to say when all of Europe re-opens. With so many different countries and governments it's impossible.
However I do think that Europe will re-open in stages, some countries are already opening up again these will definitely open their borders sooner rather than later.

My guesses are Mid-June as the latest for countries currently reopening, and early-August for countries like the UK, Italy, France, Spain etc.
The economy can't cope with a complete closure during the busiest time a year for tourists
 
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Loew
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:02 am

Dutchy wrote:
jpetekyxmd80 wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
I personally think the borders will remain closed as they are now for a minimum of another 12-18 months. Its not just Europe closed to USA visitors, its a two way street. In 18 months they will partially reopen, but significant restrictions will remain in place. If you are looking for life the way it was a year ago, its never coming back.


That's ridiculous


No it isn't, Spain talks about keeping it's borders closed for the upcoming summer season. Indeed, until a vaccine comes online we will keep this lock-down or at least an intelligent lock-down.

Tourism is especially non-essential thingy.


...which in my opinion is not legally possible at this time. As per article 25 of the SBC:

1. Where, in the area without internal border control, there is a serious threat to public policy or internal security in a Member State, that Member State may exceptionally reintroduce border control at all or specific parts of its internal borders for a limited period of up to 30 days or for the foreseeable duration of the serious threat if its duration exceeds 30 days. The scope and duration of the temporary reintroduction of border control at internal borders shall not exceed what is strictly necessary to respond to the serious threat.

2. Border control at internal borders shall only be reintroduced as a last resort, and in accordance with Articles 27, 28 and 29. The criteria referred to, respectively, in Articles 26 and 30 shall be taken into account in each case where a decision on the reintroduction of border control at internal borders is considered pursuant, respectively, to Article 27, 28 or 29.

3. If the serious threat to public policy or internal security in the Member State concerned persists beyond the period provided for in paragraph 1 of this Article, that Member State may prolong border control at its internal borders, taking account of the criteria referred to in Article 26 and in accordance with Article 27, on the same grounds as those referred to in paragraph 1 of this Article and, taking into account any new elements, for renewable periods of up to 30 days.

4. The total period during which border control is reintroduced at internal borders, including any prolongation provided for under paragraph 3 of this Article, shall not exceed six months. Where there are exceptional circumstances as referred to in Article 29, that total period may be extended to a maximum length of two years, in accordance with paragraph 1 of that Article.

Spain is openly reducing measures to stop the spread of this virus and sending people back to work. That way they make very clear that there is no more "serious threat to public policy". In that case keeping the borders closed clearly extendes beyond what is "strictly necessary to respond to the serious threat". According to Spain´s own notification, checks have been reintroduced on land borders only between 17th of march to 11th of april.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:14 am

Loew wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
jpetekyxmd80 wrote:

That's ridiculous


No it isn't, Spain talks about keeping it's borders closed for the upcoming summer season. Indeed, until a vaccine comes online we will keep this lock-down or at least an intelligent lock-down.

Tourism is especially non-essential thingy.


...which in my opinion is not legally possible at this time. As per article 25 of the SBC:

1. Where, in the area without internal border control, there is a serious threat to public policy or internal security in a Member State, that Member State may exceptionally reintroduce border control at all or specific parts of its internal borders for a limited period of up to 30 days or for the foreseeable duration of the serious threat if its duration exceeds 30 days. The scope and duration of the temporary reintroduction of border control at internal borders shall not exceed what is strictly necessary to respond to the serious threat.

2. Border control at internal borders shall only be reintroduced as a last resort, and in accordance with Articles 27, 28 and 29. The criteria referred to, respectively, in Articles 26 and 30 shall be taken into account in each case where a decision on the reintroduction of border control at internal borders is considered pursuant, respectively, to Article 27, 28 or 29.

3. If the serious threat to public policy or internal security in the Member State concerned persists beyond the period provided for in paragraph 1 of this Article, that Member State may prolong border control at its internal borders, taking account of the criteria referred to in Article 26 and in accordance with Article 27, on the same grounds as those referred to in paragraph 1 of this Article and, taking into account any new elements, for renewable periods of up to 30 days.

4. The total period during which border control is reintroduced at internal borders, including any prolongation provided for under paragraph 3 of this Article, shall not exceed six months. Where there are exceptional circumstances as referred to in Article 29, that total period may be extended to a maximum length of two years, in accordance with paragraph 1 of that Article.

Spain is openly reducing measures to stop the spread of this virus and sending people back to work. That way they make very clear that there is no more "serious threat to public policy". In that case keeping the borders closed clearly extendes beyond what is "strictly necessary to respond to the serious threat". According to Spain´s own notification, checks have been reintroduced on land borders only between 17th of march to 11th of april.


Ok, I am not a lawyer, and I am not interested in a legal debate if the current situation constitutes a serious threat to keep the border closed or not. But even if it is not, they can still keep all shops closed, all tourist attractions, all restaurants, all bars etc. If the Spanish government deemed it necessary to do it, they will.

It is not that they are not highly motivated to work towards a solution. So it is kind of strange that you bring this legal framework here.
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seahawk
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:34 am

Bringing people back to work is in the interest of preventing another serious threat to the state and the public, the economic collapse. And allowing your own citizens to work, does not mean you have to allow tourists into your country. Preventing the another outbreak of the virus will always be a legally strong enough argument to keep border controls.
 
ltbewr
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:36 am

I agree that until their is some treatment to limit the number of deaths and severe illness, an effective and safe vaccine is available and economic conditions partially recover, tourist and business travel will be dead for 12 to 18 months. More likely real recovery won't happen until early 2022.
 
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Aesma
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:37 am

Loew : in France companies have never stopped working (well many have, due to lack of masks etc., but many haven't), you always could go out to work. Yet France's notice for Schengen border closure is until October !
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Aesma
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:44 am

dobilan wrote:
Probably one year till back to normal for EU-US/Canada and maybe EU-Russia relation tourism. Probably not so soon (5-8years) for EU-Asia and EU-rest of the world. Anyway, until fuil economic recovery people will have more important stuff to do than international tourism. BTW, any opinion if firms like Uber or Airbnb wil survive this?


I know the question is about tourism, but the real question should be about international travel. I don't see how there could be "full economic recovery" without international travel.

I'm having a debate about what the French government is doing on a French forum, and some argue the lockdown (until May 11th) is to protect French people, others that it's for hospitals to recover... I tend to agree with the later. The government will of course not be reckless, but if you want to be reckless with your life, go for it. So once hospitals are doing OK, capacity is increased for the long run, etc., it could make sense to open things up more fully, and if people want to risk travelling, going to crowded places, etc., let them.

Now that brings up another issue, travel insurance covering weeks in the ICU : I could see it become mandatory.
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hvusslax
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:55 am

Loew wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
jpetekyxmd80 wrote:

That's ridiculous


No it isn't, Spain talks about keeping it's borders closed for the upcoming summer season. Indeed, until a vaccine comes online we will keep this lock-down or at least an intelligent lock-down.

Tourism is especially non-essential thingy.


...which in my opinion is not legally possible at this time. As per article 25 of the SBC:
[...]
Spain is openly reducing measures to stop the spread of this virus and sending people back to work. That way they make very clear that there is no more "serious threat to public policy". In that case keeping the borders closed clearly extendes beyond what is "strictly necessary to respond to the serious threat". According to Spain´s own notification, checks have been reintroduced on land borders only between 17th of march to 11th of april.


A country could completely eradicate the virus within its borders and cancel all internal social distancing measures but still be able to keep borders closed on grounds of threat to public health to prevent the virus from being reintroduced. And quite frankly, it has been established that the threshold for what constitutes "serious threat" had already been reduced greatly long before this virus. Countries like France and Sweden have been applying "temporary measures" at their borders because of terrorism and irregular migration for several years now that just keep getting extended.

I expect the external Schengen borders will be closed until September at the earliest and measures by individual countries might last longer. International tourism is a very important sector of the economy in my country (Iceland) but authorities here have suggested that significant travel restrictions will be in place until the end of the year. Tourism is important but its interests do not override everything else.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:05 am

hvusslax wrote:
Tourism is important but its interests do not override everything else.


Exactly.
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Flyingsottsman
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:22 am

Talking of Europe, I wonder how damaged the tourism to China is and how long it will before people return back to there since this thing started in China. I would take a guess we would be looking at, um at least 6 months, I recon it will take the airlines themselves at least 3 months to get their operations up and going, I know Qantas wont have their parked planes up and flying the day after they say yep we can flay again.
 
dobilan
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:39 am

I think mass tourism as we know it, with masses of people rubbing shoulders on the streets is done for the time being.
I mean the "open to tourism" will be literally that: the EU countries will allow non EU residents to come as tourists without further justification, not that will be easy or cheap. We are only at the beginning of the economic problems.
 
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Loew
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:43 am

Dutchy wrote:
Ok, I am not a lawyer, and I am not interested in a legal debate if the current situation constitutes a serious threat to keep the border closed or not. But even if it is not, they can still keep all shops closed, all tourist attractions, all restaurants, all bars etc. If the Spanish government deemed it necessary to do it, they will.

It is not that they are not highly motivated to work towards a solution. So it is kind of strange that you bring this legal framework here.


Spanish government probably can keep any kind of shops closed as long as it wish, however as for schengen borders, there are international treaties in place and I am sure spanish government plans on honouring these treaties same way as it did until now. The Schengen agreement and all legislation in connection has also precedence over any national legislation.

Aesma wrote:
Loew : in France companies have never stopped working (well many have, due to lack of masks etc., but many haven't), you always could go out to work. Yet France's notice for Schengen border closure is until October !


Which is exactly in line with article 25, section 3 of the SBC.

hvusslax wrote:
A country could completely eradicate the virus within its borders and cancel all internal social distancing measures but still be able to keep borders closed on grounds of threat to public health to prevent the virus from being reintroduced. And quite frankly, it has been established that the threshold for what constitutes "serious threat" had already been reduced greatly long before this virus. Countries like France and Sweden have been applying "temporary measures" at their borders because of terrorism and irregular migration for several years now that just keep getting extended.


No, it has not been reduced because the Court of justice of the EU has not provided any judicial decision yet, at least not to my knowledge. As for border checks between Denmark and Germany, and Denmark and Sweden we all know these have been place for years now, and we all know they are in breach with article 29 of the SBC. Using these examples to justify other countries going the same way, now because of covid is an express way to death of Schengen agreement. Personally I hope that covid will finally push the Council and Commission to take real and effective measures to reinstate this agreement as soon as possible.
 
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hvusslax
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:54 am

Loew wrote:
No, it has not been reduced because the Court of justice of the EU has not provided any judicial decision yet, at least not to my knowledge. As for border checks between Denmark and Germany, and Denmark and Sweden we all know these have been place for years now, and we all know they are in breach with article 29 of the SBC. Using these examples to justify other countries going the same way, now because of covid is an express way to death of Schengen agreement. Personally I hope that covid will finally push the Council and Commission to take real and effective measures to reinstate this agreement as soon as possible.


A push by the Council and Commission against these measures by member states at this point would simply destroy Schengen forever.
 
cpd
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:16 pm

BasilFawlty wrote:
For travellers from inside Europe? Hopefully as soon as possible.
For travellers from outside Europe? Hopefully never.


I'm happy to spend a lot of money over in France and encourage others to go along with me. Together we have quite a lot of money to spend in numerous smaller towns away from the regular tourist areas and at times of the year when all the other tourists are not there. I really love the place and the people. I miss it. And so I keep going back.

I always think of some time in the future, could I live over there and try to make a contribution myself.

Should we instead do whatever we can to support economies elsewhere and those in your area suffer the economic penalties from it? I don't think so, one miserable comment doesn't warrant a whole lot of nice people and their local economies being wrecked even more than this damn virus already has done.
Last edited by cpd on Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aesma
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:18 pm

I'm a fan of Schengen, although not living near any border (aside from airports) I'm not a huge user, however this is really not the time for such considerations.

Now, if all Schengen countries have the virus "under control" and external borders are still closed, it might make sense to reopen internal borders to help the economy. Rules about what you can and can't do in each country might have to be streamlined first.
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cpd
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:30 pm

Aesma wrote:
I'm a fan of Schengen, although not living near any border (aside from airports) I'm not a huge user, however this is really not the time for such considerations.

Now, if all Schengen countries have the virus "under control" and external borders are still closed, it might make sense to reopen internal borders to help the economy. Rules about what you can and can't do in each country might have to be streamlined first.


And one other thing, none of us from far overseas are going to be going to Europe any time soon anyway. Our borders are shut fairly tight as well, we aren't allowed to even leave our homes unless it is really essential. Overseas travel is out of the question for at least maybe next year I suppose or at least until we get a vaccine to bring this virus properly under control.

Foreigners too are under financial stress, people have lost jobs, etc. It's just a complete disaster.
 
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Loew
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:00 pm

hvusslax wrote:
Loew wrote:
No, it has not been reduced because the Court of justice of the EU has not provided any judicial decision yet, at least not to my knowledge. As for border checks between Denmark and Germany, and Denmark and Sweden we all know these have been place for years now, and we all know they are in breach with article 29 of the SBC. Using these examples to justify other countries going the same way, now because of covid is an express way to death of Schengen agreement. Personally I hope that covid will finally push the Council and Commission to take real and effective measures to reinstate this agreement as soon as possible.


A push by the Council and Commission against these measures by member states at this point would simply destroy Schengen forever.


Since Council is composed of heads of states or govenrments, there is no way for a Council decision to have that effect. As for commission t has already floated the idea, and no one is really complaining, including Sweden. Besides, why would a push on Denmark or Sweden to clear their act lead to Schengen destruction? I don´t see a single Schengen country terminating Schengen agreement out of a solidarity with Oresund bridge checkpoint.

Aesma wrote:
I'm a fan of Schengen, although not living near any border (aside from airports) I'm not a huge user, however this is really not the time for such considerations.
Now, if all Schengen countries have the virus "under control" and external borders are still closed, it might make sense to reopen internal borders to help the economy. Rules about what you can and can't do in each country might have to be streamlined first.


I agree. And this is also EU commission´s plan, to have internal Schengen borders open up in a coordinated fashion, while keeping outer Schengen borders closed for the time being, with the exception of a Schengen border between EU countries, such as Hungary - Romania.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:04 pm

Big question is, is there going to be a Schengen or an European Union by the time it opens?

The current situation has what it takes to shake up the structure of the EU, according to the Paris expert.

Similarly, Italian Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte warned that the EU’s very existence would be under threat if countries could not pull together to combat the COVID-19 pandemic.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/12 ... xit-latest
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airbazar
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:20 pm

Austria starts to open up its commerce today so the answer to the OP's question may be different for each country. I fully intend to visit my family in Austria this Summer.
Countries that rely heavily on tourism will probably open up sooner rather than later. Take for example a country like Portugal who thanks to its geographic position can have tighter control over who comes in and out. They also managed the Pandemic relatively well compared to their neighbors.They should be open for tourism by the Summer.
 
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hvusslax
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:24 pm

Loew wrote:
hvusslax wrote:
Loew wrote:
No, it has not been reduced because the Court of justice of the EU has not provided any judicial decision yet, at least not to my knowledge. As for border checks between Denmark and Germany, and Denmark and Sweden we all know these have been place for years now, and we all know they are in breach with article 29 of the SBC. Using these examples to justify other countries going the same way, now because of covid is an express way to death of Schengen agreement. Personally I hope that covid will finally push the Council and Commission to take real and effective measures to reinstate this agreement as soon as possible.


A push by the Council and Commission against these measures by member states at this point would simply destroy Schengen forever.


Since Council is composed of heads of states or govenrments, there is no way for a Council decision to have that effect. As for commission t has already floated the idea, and no one is really complaining, including Sweden. Besides, why would a push on Denmark or Sweden to clear their act lead to Schengen destruction? I don´t see a single Schengen country terminating Schengen agreement out of a solidarity with Oresund bridge checkpoint.


I was referring to the COVID restrictions. No member state is going to lift travel restriction that have been put in place for public health reasons before they are ready just because the Commission asks them to. They would rather drop out of Schengen completely because this is a deadly serious situation. The Commission is aware of the political reality and won't seriously push for opening internal borders until they know it would be accepted by member states. That is just what needs to be kept in mind when you read EU legal texts. How things are actually implemented and enforced is subject to political reality at any given time. Sure, Sweden might strictly not be allowed to keep the Oresund checkpoint going forever but who is going to stop them and at what cost? They will probably just get some sternly written letters from Brussels. The COVID restrictions are of much more importance to the member states and if the Commission wasn't able to get Sweden or France to fall in line before this crisis then there is nothing that will be done about these current restrictions, regardless of what you feel about their legality.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:41 pm

Loew wrote:
Using these examples to justify other countries going the same way, now because of covid is an express way to death of Schengen agreement. Personally I hope that covid will finally push the Council and Commission to take real and effective measures to reinstate this agreement as soon as possible.

No, rigid and dogmatic interpretation of the Schengen treaty is almost guaranteed way to kill the whole idea. Comnission failed to act in the beginning to help mitigate the spread so I only hope they are sane enough not to intervene now against the wishes of national governments.
 
PlymSpotter
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:50 pm

LOT767301ER wrote:
Uncontrollable spreading the virus won’t be beneficial for the economy either.... As long there is no vaccin, people won’t be allowed for non-essential cross-border travelling.


Question - What if no vaccine is ever found? What about H1N1 11 years ago? 60 million Americans infected, tens of thousands dead and is now circulating as part of the regular flu regimen.

Do you read what you type before you post or...?


Do you understand perspective before posting?

Yes, in a one year period, H1N1 infected 60.8m Americans and killed 12,469. Covid-19 has killed more people in the USA than that in the last week, and that's with the benefit of social distancing measures kicking in.
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IH8BY
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:57 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Big question is, is there going to be a Schengen or an European Union by the time it opens?

The current situation has what it takes to shake up the structure of the EU, according to the Paris expert.

Similarly, Italian Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte warned that the EU’s very existence would be under threat if countries could not pull together to combat the COVID-19 pandemic.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/12 ... xit-latest


I definitely agree this has the potential to change the way the EU works - it hasn't been as effective so far as maybe it should have been in the crisis (though that's always the way - too much action and it's apparently treading on member states' toes, too little and it's apparently useless!) and it needs to be more flexible and quicker to act. That said, governments will (for the most part) want the EU to survive and Conte is likely trying to use the fear of it failing to get a bit more political leverage.

I'd be a little wary of the Express' reporting - they publish a lot of wishful articles about the collapse of the EU.
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Aesma
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:38 pm

I'm sure you can find plenty of articles in the same "newspaper" about how the UK shouldn't be paying for lazy Greeks and Portuguese...

The EU health budget is ridiculously small, for a long list of things to do (including cross-border threats), so I'm not sure what you could expect in the current crisis.

What should happen is exactly what "anti-EU" people say should happen anyway, head of states meeting and finding solutions together. If they can't, it's not the EU's fault.
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Loew
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:14 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Loew wrote:
Using these examples to justify other countries going the same way, now because of covid is an express way to death of Schengen agreement. Personally I hope that covid will finally push the Council and Commission to take real and effective measures to reinstate this agreement as soon as possible.

No, rigid and dogmatic interpretation of the Schengen treaty is almost guaranteed way to kill the whole idea. Comnission failed to act in the beginning to help mitigate the spread so I only hope they are sane enough not to intervene now against the wishes of national governments.


I am very surprised to learn that a well known eurosceptic as yourself, was actually waiting for EU commission to do anything. That aside, I am sure that you know very well, that health policy is almost exclusively in hands of member countries.

Yet, that commission which failed in your eyes, has for example just released 2,7 billion euros to help mitigate financial strain on hospitals. It has also helped repatriating thousands of citizens, has established green lanes on land borders to ease cargo transport, it has closed outer EU border to prevent more infected people from coming in from third countires, in coordination with EMA it helped start of clinical trials of several proposed antivirotics, it has released 100 billion euros in a SURE programme, it is now coordinating PPE production together with member countries... the list goes on.

But you are right that despite of all that, this crisis has showed, that EU or its member countries were not prepared for a public health crisis of this magnitude. And it shows that EU is not a federation but rather, as the name suggest, a union - international organization of member countries. Uncoordinated and chaotic response to virus outbreak therefore fully lies on member countries. Now, we see that doesn´t work too well, and European Council, that is heads of governements, is already discussing more coordinated ways to ease the restrictions. In this light, some changes, major changes, to EU functioning seem unavoidable.

But, despite your hopes and dreams, this is not the end of Schengen or the EU.
 
olle
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:27 pm

Aesma wrote:
I'm sure you can find plenty of articles in the same "newspaper" about how the UK shouldn't be paying for lazy Greeks and Portuguese...

The EU health budget is ridiculously small, for a long list of things to do (including cross-border threats), so I'm not sure what you could expect in the current crisis.

What should happen is exactly what "anti-EU" people say should happen anyway, head of states meeting and finding solutions together. If they can't, it's not the EU's fault.

Remember that the EU budget is extremly small. 1% of GDP. Of this a major part to to agriculture, support to weaker regions.

What is rest is bound for inrastructure, research, erasmus etc.

Please do not blame EU for what it does not have money nor mandate for. In most part of EU health is not even on national level but on regional level.

EU need a longer term a much bigger budget for handle crisis. Military is part of this to handle transport, emergency resources etc.

But for doing this both north and south need to get one or two crisis in order for Scandinavians, Holland and germany need to see that we also inbetween needs to get more resources then we can get on national level.
Last edited by olle on Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
marcelh
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:27 pm

LOT767301ER wrote:
Uncontrollable spreading the virus won’t be beneficial for the economy either.... As long there is no vaccin, people won’t be allowed for non-essential cross-border travelling.


Question - What if no vaccine is ever found? What about H1N1 11 years ago? 60 million Americans infected, tens of thousands dead and is now circulating as part of the regular flu regimen.


What about H1N1? There was already in 2009 a vaccin available. And there will be a vaccin for COVID-19.


Do you read what you type before you post or...?


I actually do read my post before hitting <enter>, maybe you should read your comment as a "note to myself..." :white:
I believe tourism will be limited before a vaccin is avaiable.
 
marcelh
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:55 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Big question is, is there going to be a Schengen or an European Union by the time it opens?

The current situation has what it takes to shake up the structure of the EU, according to the Paris expert.

Similarly, Italian Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte warned that the EU’s very existence would be under threat if countries could not pull together to combat the COVID-19 pandemic.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/12 ... xit-latest


Sure, there will be a EU and Schengen. Conte is just "dissapointed" because he uses the COVID-19 pandemic to implement Eurobonds. Those Eurobonds are the Holy Grail for the countries which are heavily in debt, because the interest of those Eurobonds has to be paid by all member states. Germany now has a negative interest on their loans, but with Eurobonds they have to pay interest. And it's very questionable if those countries which benefits of those Eurobonds are willing to implement unpopular but necessary reforms. They want the cake and eat it.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3798
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:19 pm

LOT767301ER wrote:
Uncontrollable spreading the virus won’t be beneficial for the economy either.... As long there is no vaccin, people won’t be allowed for non-essential cross-border travelling.


Question - What if no vaccine is ever found? What about H1N1 11 years ago? 60 million Americans infected, tens of thousands dead and is now circulating as part of the regular flu regimen.

Do you read what you type before you post or...?


There was an H1N1 vaccine and I think it came out in late 2010. I remember getting it along with the annual flu shot.

I do wonder if medical experts have told governments that no vaccine is possible and this virus has similar nature to HIV or the Flu where you can only vaccinate one strain at a time but the virus mutates too fast for us to keep up. Then it has to be dealt with through treatments, HIV has been largely neutralized and benign in the developed world.
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BasilFawlty
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:42 pm

phxa340 wrote:
Um, if your European then what a short sided comment. Does Europe , especially Greece and Spain, not need tourism revenue ?

No, it isn't a short sided comment. Tourism in Greece and Spain is almost completely depending on intra-Europe traffic, for example: tourists in Spain in 2018: 82.7 million, of which 75.3 million came from Europe. Figures for Greece are not much different. They will be fine without tourists from other continents. In the longer term EU-US/Canada and EU-Australia/New Zealand could be resumed, but EU-Asia and EU-Africa should be banned forever, as those are the continents where all the diseases are coming from.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
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BasilFawlty
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:56 pm

dobilan wrote:
any opinion if firms like Uber or Airbnb wil survive this?

Hopefully Airbnb goes bust and disappears. :twisted: It will be a blessing for cities such as Barcelona, Paris, Venice, Amsterdam and even my own city of Haarlem.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
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lydh
Posts: 72
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:01 am

I can’t believe how alarmist and ridiculous some of the replies here are. My word!
 
olle
Posts: 1893
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:46 am

There will probably be much more halth checks at the airports.

The biggest change will be that this can long term change sourcing policy for industries. JIT -> just in time failed us. The purchasing organisations will get requirement to have more multi sourcing with transport risk as one consideration. even if only 20% of USA and EU sourcing change to second sources this will mean huge impact in Asia.
 
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seahawk
Posts: 9627
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Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:00 am

As long as you need health checks, travel will be limited.
 
olle
Posts: 1893
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: When will Europe be “open” for tourism?

Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:55 am

Aesma wrote:
I'm a fan of Schengen, although not living near any border (aside from airports) I'm not a huge user, however this is really not the time for such considerations.

Now, if all Schengen countries have the virus "under control" and external borders are still closed, it might make sense to reopen internal borders to help the economy. Rules about what you can and can't do in each country might have to be streamlined first.


Schengen is showing as well, that there is possibilities to close borders if needed. Compare this to USA where there is stories about people leaving NY city driving to Florida with their families when this started.

Schengen will be pushed to have a more USA model migration and EITAS is on the way as a start.

This will create very hard borders within Europeagain. Between Schengen Ukraine, Russia and UK.

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